Israel vs Hamas

[FINate]

A few years ago I watched an interview with one of these "settlers" who insisted that the land belonged to them because "it said so in the Bible."  That's when I realized this was going to be a never-ending issue.

Religion seems so much like cultural baggage at this point. Baggage that needs to be shed when it amounts to a negative force within a person's life or community.

No good reason to hate your neighbor because of 2000+ year old grudges.

How many Americans hate their neighbor of a different political party? What is that, a 20 year old grudge? Humans are very good at being tribal, and in vs. out group dynamics. But I should point out, the grudges we're seeing today don't really go back 2000 years. Islam isn't that old, and once it spread throughout the Middle East there were long stretches of peaceful coexistence with Jews and Christians.

As others have pointed out, the grudges in the Middle East are less about religion (though that is part of it) than a deeply complex history of competing claims on land.

The US/Canada largely doesn't experience this because... oh, right, our genocide of the native peoples was so completely devastating.

As pointed out up thread, a huge part of the mess in the Middle East is the result of western colonization. It's worth noting that the long history of persecution of the Jews in Europe, culminating in the Holocaust, was a large factor in the Jews seeking their own homeland. Although I'm not a huge supporter of the modern state of Israel and their treatment of the Palestinian people, I get why they feel the need for their own place in this world.

So the current "baggage" in the Middle East is, in large part, the product of the behaviors and ideologies of western nations, both in colonization and antisemitism. WE DID IT. Yet folks here continue to lecture the brown people of the world (aka our former colonies) that they just need to become like white liberal secularists and dump their religious beliefs, and this will fix everything. Let's call this what it really is: ethnocentrism.

[GilesMM]

Does anyone have any solutions besides genocide though? What will solve the current situation and result in a lasting peace for the future? Seems like nothing...

At least in the Ukraine/Russia scenario you could see eventually some end where Ukraine loses some territory (or none) and joins NATO and would be safe from future aggression. Or, it's consumed  into Russia.

With Israel and the Palestinian territories, I don't see any solution.

You probably have to fully militarily conquer and then colonize/rebuild Gaza ala Japan or Germany in 1945.

I'm not sure the motivation or money to do that is there, though. And the idea of taking away sovereignty and reprogramming a whole population probably wouldn't fly in today's world as it's not very PC.

Otherwise, we'll just keep repeating this stuff until someone finally gets their hands on a nuke or two and then that's probably the end of Israel (and a lot of other things in the area).

-W

Palestine has been under de facto Israeli rule for decades now.  They were fully militarily conquered when the occupation started some 60 odd years ago.  The Palestinians have no real sovereignty at all.  Israel controls all goods that enter and leave Palestine.  Israel polices Palestine.  Israel controls the buildings that are built, the foreign aid that is given.  Armed Israeli 'settlers' routinely kick down doors and steal from Palestinians with full backing and support of Israel.  Palestinians are held without charge or due process in Israeli prisons (before the war there were more than 1000 kidnapped Palestinan citizens, including more than a hundred children).  The overwhelming majority of Palestinians ruled by Israel are denied the right to vote to democratically change things.  Murder of Palestinians by Israeli citizens is virtually never punished in Israeli courts.

You talk about 'taking away sovereignty' as not being very PC . . . that's certainly true.  But it is also true that it seems to fly just fine with the western world.

In no way to I condone the actions of Hamas targeting civilians in Israel - that's a horrible and reprehensible action and I'm 100% against it.  It's just as horrible and reprehensible when Israel does the same (either referencing the many incidents prior to this recent Hamas attack or the impending ones). . . and we appear to be losing this half of the message.  I don't support Israel starving and bombing Palestinian children as is currently going on.  I don't support Israel telling half of the Gaza strip to leave 'or else' when the UN says that a relocation of that magnitude is not possible without humanitarian catastrophe.  I don't support Israeli military officials dehumanizing Palestinians and calling them 'animals'.  Israel certainly appears to be marching to ethnic cleansing and genocide in the name of defense.

Israel needs to wake up and end the occupation without further strife.   That doesn't seem likely - they seem to prefer war and murder.

[dividendman]

Israel needs to wake up and end the occupation without further strife.   That doesn't seem likely - they seem to prefer war and murder.

I tend to agree... but it takes two to tango and the Palestinians don't want to give up their "right to return", Jerusalem and other things... which makes sense but also makes any solution unlikely.

I guess Israel could unilaterally just say "the West Bank and Gaza with their current borders are no longer under Israeli occupation" and then close all borders Israel has with those territories and let the Palestinians figure it out but I'm not sure that would cause more or less violence.

Also, nothing would stop the Palestinians from building up a massive arsenal and eventually invading Israel...

I think we are past the point where any group just gives up, or admits defeat, and accepts the terms of another party. If another world war broke out I don't think it would ever end even if one country/side was totally defeated militarily. Guerrilla insurgencies would continue forever unless the defeated population was wiped out almost completely (like the Native Americans).

[PeteD01]

More on the Israeli government failure and background, and also why it seems inevitable that the way out of the crisis involves dealing with the Israeli hard right as much as dealing with Hamas.
It is the raison d'ętre of the state of Israel that is at stake and there will be far reaching consequences of the failure to live up to this responsibility:

Deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust spurs a crisis of confidence in the idea of Israel – and its possible renewal
Avner Cohen
October 14, 2023

The raison d'ętre – the purpose, justification, and international legitimacy – of the creation of Israel in 1948 was that it would be a safe homeland for the Jews as a fundamental response to the lesson of the Holocaust: Jews should no longer be victims.

So Israel came into being along with the national avowal “Never Again,” made by both the survivors and their rescuers, as its founding ethos. For Israelis and their supporters around the world, the triumph of Israel is the extraordinary transformation from Holocaust to national revival or, in Hebrew, from Shoah to Tekuma.

https://theconversation.com/deadliest-day-for-jews-since-the-holocaust-spurs-a-crisis-of-confidence-in-the-idea-of-israel-and-its-possible-renewal-215507

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Israel needs to wake up and end the occupation without further strife.   That doesn't seem likely - they seem to prefer war and murder.

I tend to agree... but it takes two to tango and the Palestinians don't want to give up their "right to return", Jerusalem and other things... which makes sense but also makes any solution unlikely.

I guess Israel could unilaterally just say "the West Bank and Gaza with their current borders are no longer under Israeli occupation" and then close all borders Israel has with those territories and let the Palestinians figure it out but I'm not sure that would cause more or less violence.

Also, nothing would stop the Palestinians from building up a massive arsenal and eventually invading Israel...

I think we are past the point where any group just gives up, or admits defeat, and accepts the terms of another party. If another world war broke out I don't think it would ever end even if one country/side was totally defeated militarily. Guerrilla insurgencies would continue forever unless the defeated population was wiped out almost completely (like the Native Americans).

This is a great point. Obviously Netanyahu is an awful leader who has exacerbated the problem, but I wonder what the the people who are so strongly anti Israel on this want to happen. What should be Israel's response be? I mean, clearly, they should stop the human rights violations that they've committed. They can't really not respond at all to a coordinated terrorist attack perpetrated by essentially the government of their neighbors. They certainly don't have to do it in the way that they are of forcibly kicking people out even from hospitals, but there would have to be some response.

That is my curiosity overall. What should Israel do? Because for most pro Palestine people I read , it seems to boil down to Israel needs to leave, and if that's the only response that's palatable for the other side to avoid terrorist acts, it's hard to imagine Israel ever coming up with a more reasonable response. I freely amit, though, that I'm probably misconstruing things. This is just how it seems from what I've read.

[GuitarStv]

Israel needs to wake up and end the occupation without further strife.   That doesn't seem likely - they seem to prefer war and murder.

I tend to agree... but it takes two to tango and the Palestinians don't want to give up their "right to return", Jerusalem and other things... which makes sense but also makes any solution unlikely.

I guess Israel could unilaterally just say "the West Bank and Gaza with their current borders are no longer under Israeli occupation" and then close all borders Israel has with those territories and let the Palestinians figure it out but I'm not sure that would cause more or less violence.

Also, nothing would stop the Palestinians from building up a massive arsenal and eventually invading Israel...

I think we are past the point where any group just gives up, or admits defeat, and accepts the terms of another party. If another world war broke out I don't think it would ever end even if one country/side was totally defeated militarily. Guerrilla insurgencies would continue forever unless the defeated population was wiped out almost completely (like the Native Americans).

This is a great point. Obviously Netanyahu is an awful leader who has exacerbated the problem, but I wonder what the the people who are so strongly anti Israel on this want to happen. What should be Israel's response be? I mean, clearly, they should stop the human rights violations that they've committed. They can't really not respond at all to a coordinated terrorist attack perpetrated by essentially the government of their neighbors. They certainly don't have to do it in the way that they are of forcibly kicking people out even from hospitals, but there would have to be some response.

That is my curiosity overall. What should Israel do? Because for most pro Palestine people I read , it seems to boil down to Israel needs to leave, and if that's the only response that's palatable for the other side to avoid terrorist acts, it's hard to imagine Israel ever coming up with a more reasonable response. I freely amit, though, that I'm probably misconstruing things. This is just how it seems from what I've read.

Shit or get off the pot.  Let Palestine be a country with their own representation, laws, and to control their own borders and stop helping 'settlers' steal from them, or admit that all Palestinians are actually under Israeli rule and give them legal Israeli status (voting rights, land rights, fair legal rights in court).  Either way is fine and fair.  Walking this bullshit middle ground of occupation and oppression is not, and furthers the othering that deepens resentment and hate.

Neither path is easy, but to truly try to end the strife you really just have those choices and genocide.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Israel needs to wake up and end the occupation without further strife.   That doesn't seem likely - they seem to prefer war and murder.

I tend to agree... but it takes two to tango and the Palestinians don't want to give up their "right to return", Jerusalem and other things... which makes sense but also makes any solution unlikely.

I guess Israel could unilaterally just say "the West Bank and Gaza with their current borders are no longer under Israeli occupation" and then close all borders Israel has with those territories and let the Palestinians figure it out but I'm not sure that would cause more or less violence.

Also, nothing would stop the Palestinians from building up a massive arsenal and eventually invading Israel...

I think we are past the point where any group just gives up, or admits defeat, and accepts the terms of another party. If another world war broke out I don't think it would ever end even if one country/side was totally defeated militarily. Guerrilla insurgencies would continue forever unless the defeated population was wiped out almost completely (like the Native Americans).

This is a great point. Obviously Netanyahu is an awful leader who has exacerbated the problem, but I wonder what the the people who are so strongly anti Israel on this want to happen. What should be Israel's response be? I mean, clearly, they should stop the human rights violations that they've committed. They can't really not respond at all to a coordinated terrorist attack perpetrated by essentially the government of their neighbors. They certainly don't have to do it in the way that they are of forcibly kicking people out even from hospitals, but there would have to be some response.

That is my curiosity overall. What should Israel do? Because for most pro Palestine people I read , it seems to boil down to Israel needs to leave, and if that's the only response that's palatable for the other side to avoid terrorist acts, it's hard to imagine Israel ever coming up with a more reasonable response. I freely amit, though, that I'm probably misconstruing things. This is just how it seems from what I've read.

Shit or get off the pot.  Let Palestine be a country with their own representation, laws, and to control their own borders and stop helping 'settlers' steal from them, or admit that all Palestinians are actually under Israeli rule and give them legal Israeli status (voting rights, land rights, fair legal rights in court).  Either way is fine and fair.  Walking this bullshit middle ground of occupation and oppression is not, and furthers the othering that deepens resentment and hate.

Neither path is easy, but to truly try to end the strife you really just have those choices and genocide.

How would the land be divided, though, in that instance? Isn't Jerusalem a key part of both claims?

[PeteD01]

More on the developing situation in Israel:

The Viral Protester Who Explains Why Benjamin Netanyahu’s Long Political Career May Finally End
“Netanyahu, the corrupt, the very corrupt” has “been in the seat too long,” declared Shirel Hogeg, whose sister and her family were critically wounded in Hamas’s attack.
Daniel Marans
Oct 15, 2023

Hogeg blames Netanyahu’s government for the security lapse for three reasons, calling him a “pathological liar” who divided the country and stacked the government with incompetent figures for the sake of his own career.

“Netanyahu, the corrupt, the very corrupt, who has been in the seat too long – he’s given out all these titles [to cronies] to survive,” Hogeg said. “He’s given out funds to everybody to survive. He has even given Hamas money for the past 20 years to avoid confrontation, and he never confronted them until the end.”

First, he believes that Netanyahu and his cabinet lack the skills or competence to steer the ship of state. He blames Netanyahu for giving important jobs to political allies in far-right and Orthodox Jewish political parties who lack the qualifications for the job ― conduct that Hogeg insists would not stand in the corporate world in which he has made a career.

“It’s made up of people who haven’t worked a day in their lives, people like [Finance Minister Bezalel] Smotrich and [National Security Minister Itamar] Ben-Gvir,” Hogeg said. “Set aside their ideology, which is crazy, you cannot put a person who has not worked a day of his life in charge of homeland security.” (Both men are trained lawyers, but the two men, who have advocated for atrocities, are better known for their work as right-wing activists and politicians.)

“These ministers are not fit to be ― and I don’t want to be insulting to the doormen at hotels, it’s important work ― but these people aren’t fit to do even that!” he added.

Hogeg also believes that the government is corrupt, focusing on providing jobs to political allies over competent governance.

And finally, he faults the government’s extreme ideology and beholdenness to Orthodox Jewish constituencies for leaving it unprepared for security threats.

“A state must be pragmatic. Diplomacy must be pragmatic,” Hogeg said. “Someone like Ben-Gvir who always lights fires and Smotrich who always lights fires – and let’s tell the truth: not one of them can enter in the U.S. embassy. They are not invited to be representatives of Israel even in the United States ― the best friend of Israel in the world?!” (The U.S. Embassy in Israel did not invite Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, and other far-right Israeli parliamentarians to its official U.S. Independence Day celebration this past July.)

Specifically, Hogeg argues that the social turmoil engulfing Israel since Netanyahu embarked on his effort to curtail the power of the courts has weakened the country in the face of external enemies. He cannot trace a direct line from the social division of recent months and the security breach on Oct. 7, but he is confident it had an impact.

“Netanyahu, in the past 15 years, set out in a systematic way to say, ‘us vs. them, Mizrahim vs. Ashkenazim, rightists vs. leftists’ – each time cutting the national glue into one more slice, and another slice.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/netanyahu-government-criticism-hamas-attack_n_652b1627e4b03b213b061032

[GuitarStv]

Israel needs to wake up and end the occupation without further strife.   That doesn't seem likely - they seem to prefer war and murder.

I tend to agree... but it takes two to tango and the Palestinians don't want to give up their "right to return", Jerusalem and other things... which makes sense but also makes any solution unlikely.

I guess Israel could unilaterally just say "the West Bank and Gaza with their current borders are no longer under Israeli occupation" and then close all borders Israel has with those territories and let the Palestinians figure it out but I'm not sure that would cause more or less violence.

Also, nothing would stop the Palestinians from building up a massive arsenal and eventually invading Israel...

I think we are past the point where any group just gives up, or admits defeat, and accepts the terms of another party. If another world war broke out I don't think it would ever end even if one country/side was totally defeated militarily. Guerrilla insurgencies would continue forever unless the defeated population was wiped out almost completely (like the Native Americans).

This is a great point. Obviously Netanyahu is an awful leader who has exacerbated the problem, but I wonder what the the people who are so strongly anti Israel on this want to happen. What should be Israel's response be? I mean, clearly, they should stop the human rights violations that they've committed. They can't really not respond at all to a coordinated terrorist attack perpetrated by essentially the government of their neighbors. They certainly don't have to do it in the way that they are of forcibly kicking people out even from hospitals, but there would have to be some response.

That is my curiosity overall. What should Israel do? Because for most pro Palestine people I read , it seems to boil down to Israel needs to leave, and if that's the only response that's palatable for the other side to avoid terrorist acts, it's hard to imagine Israel ever coming up with a more reasonable response. I freely amit, though, that I'm probably misconstruing things. This is just how it seems from what I've read.

Shit or get off the pot.  Let Palestine be a country with their own representation, laws, and to control their own borders and stop helping 'settlers' steal from them, or admit that all Palestinians are actually under Israeli rule and give them legal Israeli status (voting rights, land rights, fair legal rights in court).  Either way is fine and fair.  Walking this bullshit middle ground of occupation and oppression is not, and furthers the othering that deepens resentment and hate.

Neither path is easy, but to truly try to end the strife you really just have those choices and genocide.

How would the land be divided, though, in that instance? Isn't Jerusalem a key part of both claims?

In the instance where Israel admits that they rule Palestine there would be no division.  One country, one site.  If they recognize Palestine as a country, then things would continue as they are now (and the way they have been since '67) - Israeli rule of Jerusalem with a couple tiny exceptions for Palestine.

I can't see any world in which Palestine gets Jerusalem back from the Israelis, but maybe the Israelis would agree to stop kicking in the doors of Al-Aqsa for shits and giggles (or looking the other way when 'settlers' do).

[snic]

Israel needs to wake up and end the occupation without further strife.   That doesn't seem likely - they seem to prefer war and murder.

I tend to agree... but it takes two to tango and the Palestinians don't want to give up their "right to return", Jerusalem and other things... which makes sense but also makes any solution unlikely.

I guess Israel could unilaterally just say "the West Bank and Gaza with their current borders are no longer under Israeli occupation" and then close all borders Israel has with those territories and let the Palestinians figure it out but I'm not sure that would cause more or less violence.

Also, nothing would stop the Palestinians from building up a massive arsenal and eventually invading Israel...

I think we are past the point where any group just gives up, or admits defeat, and accepts the terms of another party. If another world war broke out I don't think it would ever end even if one country/side was totally defeated militarily. Guerrilla insurgencies would continue forever unless the defeated population was wiped out almost completely (like the Native Americans).

This is a great point. Obviously Netanyahu is an awful leader who has exacerbated the problem, but I wonder what the the people who are so strongly anti Israel on this want to happen. What should be Israel's response be? I mean, clearly, they should stop the human rights violations that they've committed. They can't really not respond at all to a coordinated terrorist attack perpetrated by essentially the government of their neighbors. They certainly don't have to do it in the way that they are of forcibly kicking people out even from hospitals, but there would have to be some response.

That is my curiosity overall. What should Israel do? Because for most pro Palestine people I read , it seems to boil down to Israel needs to leave, and if that's the only response that's palatable for the other side to avoid terrorist acts, it's hard to imagine Israel ever coming up with a more reasonable response. I freely amit, though, that I'm probably misconstruing things. This is just how it seems from what I've read.

Shit or get off the pot.  Let Palestine be a country with their own representation, laws, and to control their own borders and stop helping 'settlers' steal from them, or admit that all Palestinians are actually under Israeli rule and give them legal Israeli status (voting rights, land rights, fair legal rights in court).  Either way is fine and fair.  Walking this bullshit middle ground of occupation and oppression is not, and furthers the othering that deepens resentment and hate.

Neither path is easy, but to truly try to end the strife you really just have those choices and genocide.

How would the land be divided, though, in that instance? Isn't Jerusalem a key part of both claims?

In the instance where Israel admits that they rule Palestine there would be no division.  One country, one site.  If they recognize Palestine as a country, then things would continue as they are now (and the way they have been since '67) - Israeli rule of Jerusalem with a couple tiny exceptions for Palestine.

I can't see any world in which Palestine gets Jerusalem back from the Israelis, but maybe the Israelis would agree to stop kicking in the doors of Al-Aqsa for shits and giggles (or looking the other way when 'settlers' do).

For decades, I've believed that the only solution that would work is full integration of Palestinians into Israel, with an equal voice for everyone in the government. The two-state solution suffers from two problems: 1. Israel insists on security control, which effectively means that anytime it doesn't like what the Palestinian government is doing, it can block the borders (see: Gaza), and 2. Israel has already built settlements on large parts of the Palestinians' state, so how exactly would it work to make a state out of what's now a Swiss cheese pockmarked with settlement holes? A one-state solution avoids these problems, but Israelis do not want that because Israel would no longer be a Jewish-majority state.

Unfortunately, I think this means that the status quo will continue after the current operation. And every 20 years there will be another explosion like this one.

[bacchi]

For decades, I've believed that the only solution that would work is full integration of Palestinians into Israel, with an equal voice for everyone in the government. The two-state solution suffers from two problems: 1. Israel insists on security control, which effectively means that anytime it doesn't like what the Palestinian government is doing, it can block the borders (see: Gaza), and 2. Israel has already built settlements on large parts of the Palestinians' state, so how exactly would it work to make a state out of what's now a Swiss cheese pockmarked with settlement holes? A one-state solution avoids these problems, but Israelis do not want that because Israel would no longer be a Jewish-majority state.

Unfortunately, I think this means that the status quo will continue after the current operation. And every 20 years there will be another explosion like this one.

So Israel just sits on their hands and waits for the occasional rocket or terrorist attack? Just tighten the screws and kill more civilians after the fact? That seems like a complete failure of the Israeli government.

As the status quo isn't working, if I was World Emperor, I'd go for a two state solution.

Two state solution:
1) Kick the settlers out. The UN has a long list of illegal settlements.
2) Funnel billions and billions into rebuilding Palestinian and creating jobs to reduce poverty. Regular, free, elections are mandatory for the money to flow.
3) Palestine can trade freely with other countries (Jordan) and use its ports.
4) Israel will slowly normalize relations with Palestine to allow ready access to important religious sites.

I'll put down the pipe and go to bed now.

[GilesMM]

For decades, I've believed that the only solution that would work is full integration of Palestinians into Israel, with an equal voice for everyone in the government. The two-state solution suffers from two problems: 1. Israel insists on security control, which effectively means that anytime it doesn't like what the Palestinian government is doing, it can block the borders (see: Gaza), and 2. Israel has already built settlements on large parts of the Palestinians' state, so how exactly would it work to make a state out of what's now a Swiss cheese pockmarked with settlement holes? A one-state solution avoids these problems, but Israelis do not want that because Israel would no longer be a Jewish-majority state.

Unfortunately, I think this means that the status quo will continue after the current operation. And every 20 years there will be another explosion like this one.

So Israel just sits on their hands and waits for the occasional rocket or terrorist attack? Just tighten the screws and kill more civilians after the fact? That seems like a complete failure of the Israeli government.

As the status quo isn't working, if I was World Emperor, I'd go for a two state solution.

Two state solution:
1) Kick the settlers out. The UN has a long list of illegal settlements.
2) Funnel billions and billions into rebuilding Palestinian and creating jobs to reduce poverty. Regular, free, elections are mandatory for the money to flow.
3) Palestine can trade freely with other countries (Jordan) and use its ports.
4) Israel will slowly normalize relations with Palestine to allow ready access to important religious sites.

I'll put down the pipe and go to bed now.

I agree.  I don't get all the sympathy for Israel given their behavior.  I would have the same sympathy for a neighbor who caged and abused a dog and cried when it bit them.

[ATtiny85]

For decades, I've believed that the only solution that would work is full integration of Palestinians into Israel, with an equal voice for everyone in the government. The two-state solution suffers from two problems: 1. Israel insists on security control, which effectively means that anytime it doesn't like what the Palestinian government is doing, it can block the borders (see: Gaza), and 2. Israel has already built settlements on large parts of the Palestinians' state, so how exactly would it work to make a state out of what's now a Swiss cheese pockmarked with settlement holes? A one-state solution avoids these problems, but Israelis do not want that because Israel would no longer be a Jewish-majority state.

Unfortunately, I think this means that the status quo will continue after the current operation. And every 20 years there will be another explosion like this one.

So Israel just sits on their hands and waits for the occasional rocket or terrorist attack? Just tighten the screws and kill more civilians after the fact? That seems like a complete failure of the Israeli government.

As the status quo isn't working, if I was World Emperor, I'd go for a two state solution.

Two state solution:
1) Kick the settlers out. The UN has a long list of illegal settlements.
2) Funnel billions and billions into rebuilding Palestinian and creating jobs to reduce poverty. Regular, free, elections are mandatory for the money to flow.
3) Palestine can trade freely with other countries (Jordan) and use its ports.
4) Israel will slowly normalize relations with Palestine to allow ready access to important religious sites.

I'll put down the pipe and go to bed now.

I agree.  I don't get all the sympathy for Israel given their behavior.  I would have the same sympathy for a neighbor who caged and abused a dog and cried when it bit them.

Another vote for bacchi for World Emperor. If we put all the money the US has spent over there on actually making things better, instead of whatever this idiotic support of Israel is, we could have saved a lot of pain and suffering over the decades.

The dog analogy is perfect. We (US and UN) should play PITA instead of automatically supporting the killing of all caged dogs.

[GuitarStv]

So Israel just sits on their hands and waits for the occasional rocket or terrorist attack? Just tighten the screws and kill more civilians after the fact? That seems like a complete failure of the Israeli government.

If you're a member of the Israeli government I suspect it makes total sense.

- The fear of Palestinian attack is a valuable right wing tool used to control the Israeli populace.
- Under Netanyahu's 2018 'Jewish nation-state' law, Israel legally declared it's intentions regarding religion and ethnicity . . . so there's no need to even pretend that Palestinian Muslims will ever be accepted in any real way.
- Palestinians have historically been used by Israel people as cheap labour, and have been instrumental to building infrastructure and buildings as well as industrial output for Israelis.  If conditions were to improve in Palestine, or if Palestinians weren't so desperate the prices of labour would go up.  Israeli profits would therefore fall.
- They know that Palestinians are no match for them militarily, so any real and serious repercussions for violence committed will be far and few between.
- Right now Israel has full control of every aspect of life in Palestine without worrying about any of that pesky democracy stuff - paying attention to the plight of the people, concern about repercussions at the polls.  What benefit would there really be giving that up?

So you're balancing that against the occasional largely ineffective rocket attack, or an attack against people in Israel who don't support your policies?  Where's the motivation for change?

[PeteD01]

Public opinion in Israel appears to recognize Netanyahu's government's responsibility in pursuing policies that lead to the current events:

The War’s Just Started, but Benjamin Netanyahu Has Already Lost
BIBI’S BUSTED
No matter what happens following Israel’s siege of Gaza, the Israeli prime minister’s political ambitions are likely damaged beyond repair.

David Rothkopf
Oct. 15, 2023

Clearly, at this point, Netanyahu is beginning to understand. It looks like his more than two decades of dominance of Israeli politics is finally coming to an end.

Yes, he remains in office at the head of a “unity” government. But it is widely expected that he will be forced out after the end of the conflict in Gaza—if not before. Polls have made it clear that politically, he is a dead prime minister walking.

A Dialog Center poll indicated that nearly nine in ten Israelis characterized the terror attack as a consequence of a failure of the Netanyahu government. In the same poll, 56 percent of Israelis think Netanyahu should step down at the end of the war.
...

It is as premature as it is disrespectful to include Netanyahu’s political obituary alongside those of the innocent Israelis whose lives were put at risk by the failures of his government.

But those who track Israeli public opinion—and who also remember the inability half a century ago of Prime Minister Golda Meir to hold on to her office for long after the intelligence failures that led to the Yom Kippur war—feel that it is one of most likely consequences of this volatile moment in the region’s history.

Unlike those tragically claimed by this crisis to date, or those innocents who may yet be claimed, a racist, corrupt, ego-maniacal, would-be autocrat like Netanyahu is unlikely to be mourned by anyone of good character, or by anyone who has aspirations for a more just, peaceful Middle East.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-wars-just-started-but-netanyahu-has-already-lost?ref=home

[partgypsy]

Looking for a silver lining, hope both Hamas and Netanyahus right wing gov lose power and more moderate voices have the reigns. I don't see a single state ever happening. And, Israel can't keep having its cake and eating it too, how they treat Palestinians. Unfortunately I hear than anyone moderate in Gaza is beaten or killed by Hamas, so there is no motivation. And as Hamas controls the schooling as well as whatever functional gov there is in the strip, an entire generation has been taught only to hate.

[simonsez]

"A Dialog Center poll indicated that nearly nine in ten Israelis characterized the terror attack as a consequence of a failure of the Netanyahu government. In the same poll, 56 percent of Israelis think Netanyahu should step down at the end of the war."

That gives me hope for the future.  Not like I expect everyone to hold hands and be best friends but there are so many humans that form beliefs and actions based on what is legal/encouraged by their government.  If the Israeli government changes its figurehead and policies to be more amiable, there has to be a segment of Israelis that will soften their views.  The history is messy and nuanced but I do think given Israel's economic and social position in this conflict (they're the ones poking the bear locked in a cage and cry terrorism when the bear fights back IMO) that they do need to lead by example and it's clear the Israelis don't think Netanyahu is the person for this more cooperative environment.  I.e. I don't think a viable solution is to negotiate with Hamas and be like, "Well if you tone it down, you'll have more fairness when the Israelis dictate the way things are run."  Israel calls most of the shots, thus it's time to evolve and not look the other way when Palestinians are routinely marginalized.  So many parallels with WW1 (Austria-Hungarian oppression of Slavs), South Vietnam (Ngo Dinh Diem and the persecution of Buddhists), South Africa leading up to mid 1990s, etc.  Don't care if it's secular, political, or religious in some way - institutionalizing racism and prejudice doesn't seem like a good long-term strategy.

[snic]

"A Dialog Center poll indicated that nearly nine in ten Israelis characterized the terror attack as a consequence of a failure of the Netanyahu government. In the same poll, 56 percent of Israelis think Netanyahu should step down at the end of the war."

That gives me hope for the future.  Not like I expect everyone to hold hands and be best friends but there are so many humans that form beliefs and actions based on what is legal/encouraged by their government.  If the Israeli government changes its figurehead and policies to be more amiable, there has to be a segment of Israelis that will soften their views.  The history is messy and nuanced but I do think given Israel's economic and social position in this conflict (they're the ones poking the bear locked in a cage and cry terrorism when the bear fights back IMO) that they do need to lead by example and it's clear the Israelis don't think Netanyahu is the person for this more cooperative environment.  I.e. I don't think a viable solution is to negotiate with Hamas and be like, "Well if you tone it down, you'll have more fairness when the Israelis dictate the way things are run."  Israel calls most of the shots, thus it's time to evolve and not look the other way when Palestinians are routinely marginalized.  So many parallels with WW1 (Austria-Hungarian oppression of Slavs), South Vietnam (Ngo Dinh Diem and the persecution of Buddhists), South Africa leading up to mid 1990s, etc.  Don't care if it's secular, political, or religious in some way - institutionalizing racism and prejudice doesn't seem like a good long-term strategy.

The polls give me no hope at all for the future, for precisely the reasons GuitarStv pointed out in his (very astute) post above: for Israel there are plenty of advantages to keeping the status quo, and few disadvantages. Israelis want Netanyahu out because he failed to keep them secure, not because he failed to negotiate a solution with the Palestinians. My prediction is that an even more right-wing government will take the place of the current one, with a mandate to come up with even more draconian means of keeping Israel safe from these sorts of attacks, and even more policies that deny Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank their rights.

In the early 2000s, during one uprising/war or another (Ariel Sharon was the prime minister), I remember talking with an Israeli-American colleague about the plight of the Palestinians at the time. It seemed horrific, and I said something along the lines of "at least it can't get any worse." She looked at me like I was from Mars and said, "yes, it absolutely can get worse." She was speaking as someone who grew up in Israel and knows the politics and the people. And sure enough, over the last 15+ years, we now have Palestinians living in a cage in Gaza, absolutely no interest by either the Israeli public or its leaders in pursuing a two-state solution, nothing but the prospect of continued immiseration for Palestinians in Gaza and denial of rights for those in the West Bank, and now this awful Hamas attack and consequent bombardment and invasion of Gaza, with thousands and thousands dead and many more injured.

[GuitarStv]

Estimates are only 700 Palestinian children dead from Israeli bombing so far, so we're doing better than I had expected.  Let's see what happens tomorrow when the water runs out.

[GilesMM]

In the long run I expect the Arab states to run out of patience for Israel. It won’t end well but perhaps it will end quickly.

[PeteD01]

In the long run I expect the Arab states to run out of patience for Israel. It won’t end well but perhaps it will end quickly.

So you think the continued existence of Israel is dependent on the patience of the Arab states?

Seriously, what makes you think that?

There is really no major Arab actor that could conceivably challenge Israel.

I think the most serious challenge to the continued existence of Israel is internal dissolution of Israeli civil society by types like Netanyahu and allies.

Even Iran doesn't make it because the Iranian people could care less what the Arabs are doing - no matter how the Iranian regime tries to portrait the hostility to Israel as a thing that excites the Iranian street, it does not appear to get much traction.

Just look at how soccer fans in Iran reacted to the display of the Palestinian flag (yes, soccer is a big deal in Iran).
Going to war with Israel for something that is perceived an Arab interest would most likely be the end of the Mullah reign in Iran, especially if it involves support of an ISIS type of Sunni organization like Hamas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o73NnqX8hYM

[snic]

In the long run I expect the Arab states to run out of patience for Israel. It won’t end well but perhaps it will end quickly.

Arab states have zero interest in spending treasure and lives on confronting Israel, and very little capability to do so even if they wanted to. The last time they tried it was in 1973, when there was a movement towards Arab pan-nationalism and a coalition of Arab states attacked Israel. Lately, Arab governments have been more interested in normalizing relations with Israel, and a few more or less have already done that. They have been slow to do it because the Arab street is still sympathetic to Palestinians, but it is happening.

Iran is the major backer of Hamas and Hezbollah, and there is a real worry that if Iran gets involved more directly (e.g., in response to an Israeli attack on targets within Iran), it could lead to a much larger war with dire consequences not only on human life, but on the oil-based global economy. It is to be avoided at all costs, and that is probably the reason why there is now an air craft carrier strike group in the eastern Mediterranean, why Blinken is frantically running around the Middle East, and why Biden plans to visit Israel.

[Michael in ABQ]

In the long run I expect the Arab states to run out of patience for Israel. It won’t end well but perhaps it will end quickly.

I'll echo what others have said. The Arab states were happy to use Israel as an external problem to take attention away from their own failings as autocratic governments. But after decades of that and multiple failed wars they've decided that rapprochement is the better path. Frankly the potential for Saudi Arabia - the leader of Sunni Arab nations - to normalize relations with Israel is probably what prompted Hamas (likely with the backing of their Iranian sponsors) to strike when they did. If all the Sunni nations decide Israel has a right to exist and normalize relations it takes away a lot of the bargaining power from Hamas - and more importantly the ability of the leaders of Hamas to profit from all of that external aid flowing in.

Iran is not an Arab state (they consider themselves Persians, not Arabs) and they still have a strong incentive to treat Israel and the US as the source of all their problems to draw attention away from a failing economy, inflation, etc. They also know that Israel is already a nuclear power so if they tried to go the nuclear route they could end up getting wiped out as well.

[bacchi]

Frankly the potential for Saudi Arabia - the leader of Sunni Arab nations - to normalize relations with Israel is probably what prompted Hamas (likely with the backing of their Iranian sponsors) to strike when they did. If all the Sunni nations decide Israel has a right to exist and normalize relations it takes away a lot of the bargaining power from Hamas - and more importantly the ability of the leaders of Hamas to profit from all of that external aid flowing in.

Agreed. Hamas hasn't held an election in Gaza since 2006; if the normalization deal went through, with concessions to Palestine, Hamas loses power and grift.

[ChpBstrd]

In the long run I expect the Arab states to run out of patience for Israel. It won’t end well but perhaps it will end quickly.

I'll echo what others have said. The Arab states were happy to use Israel as an external problem to take attention away from their own failings as autocratic governments. But after decades of that and multiple failed wars they've decided that rapprochement is the better path. Frankly the potential for Saudi Arabia - the leader of Sunni Arab nations - to normalize relations with Israel is probably what prompted Hamas (likely with the backing of their Iranian sponsors) to strike when they did. If all the Sunni nations decide Israel has a right to exist and normalize relations it takes away a lot of the bargaining power from Hamas - and more importantly the ability of the leaders of Hamas to profit from all of that external aid flowing in.

Iran is not an Arab state (they consider themselves Persians, not Arabs) and they still have a strong incentive to treat Israel and the US as the source of all their problems to draw attention away from a failing economy, inflation, etc. They also know that Israel is already a nuclear power so if they tried to go the nuclear route they could end up getting wiped out as well.

Makes sense. Show me a national leadership that blames people on the other side of the planet for all that is wrong with the world and I'll show you a place where the people live in poverty and corruption.

[Metalcat]

In the long run I expect the Arab states to run out of patience for Israel. It won’t end well but perhaps it will end quickly.

I'll echo what others have said. The Arab states were happy to use Israel as an external problem to take attention away from their own failings as autocratic governments. But after decades of that and multiple failed wars they've decided that rapprochement is the better path. Frankly the potential for Saudi Arabia - the leader of Sunni Arab nations - to normalize relations with Israel is probably what prompted Hamas (likely with the backing of their Iranian sponsors) to strike when they did. If all the Sunni nations decide Israel has a right to exist and normalize relations it takes away a lot of the bargaining power from Hamas - and more importantly the ability of the leaders of Hamas to profit from all of that external aid flowing in.

Iran is not an Arab state (they consider themselves Persians, not Arabs) and they still have a strong incentive to treat Israel and the US as the source of all their problems to draw attention away from a failing economy, inflation, etc. They also know that Israel is already a nuclear power so if they tried to go the nuclear route they could end up getting wiped out as well.

Makes sense. Show me a national leadership that blames people on the other side of the planet for all that is wrong with the world and I'll show you a place where the people live in poverty and corruption.

There's a place in the world where people don't live in poverty and corruption?

[GuitarStv]

In the long run I expect the Arab states to run out of patience for Israel. It won’t end well but perhaps it will end quickly.

I'll echo what others have said. The Arab states were happy to use Israel as an external problem to take attention away from their own failings as autocratic governments. But after decades of that and multiple failed wars they've decided that rapprochement is the better path. Frankly the potential for Saudi Arabia - the leader of Sunni Arab nations - to normalize relations with Israel is probably what prompted Hamas (likely with the backing of their Iranian sponsors) to strike when they did. If all the Sunni nations decide Israel has a right to exist and normalize relations it takes away a lot of the bargaining power from Hamas - and more importantly the ability of the leaders of Hamas to profit from all of that external aid flowing in.

Iran is not an Arab state (they consider themselves Persians, not Arabs) and they still have a strong incentive to treat Israel and the US as the source of all their problems to draw attention away from a failing economy, inflation, etc. They also know that Israel is already a nuclear power so if they tried to go the nuclear route they could end up getting wiped out as well.

Makes sense. Show me a national leadership that blames people on the other side of the planet for all that is wrong with the world and I'll show you a place where the people live in poverty and corruption.

There's a place in the world where people don't live in poverty and corruption?

I bet it's Scandinavia . . . they always seem to be the one good exception country.

[Metalcat]

I bet it's Scandinavia . . . they always seem to be the one good exception country.

Might wanna check with the Arabs in that part of the world, and right wing Scandi political parties are all about blaming everything on the Arabs.

It's been referred to as a racism crisis in Sweden.

[GuitarStv]

I bet it's Scandinavia . . . they always seem to be the one good exception country.

Might wanna check with the Arabs in that part of the world, and right wing Scandi political parties are all about blaming everything on the Arabs.

It's been referred to as a racism crisis in Sweden.

Dammit.  Now who am I supposed to look for as a shining beacon of humanity???

[GuitarStv]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

[snic]

The article linked below is a really good historical perspective on the problem the provides a lot of context that current news articles leave out because they focus more on what is happening than on why it's happening. It methodically describes what has led to the current eruption of violence, and explains the choice Israel will have to make after its current military operation is over.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gaza-became-open-air-prison-165951249.html

[PeteD01]

Agree, it is a very good article - especially the prison metaphor, which isn't so much a metaphor come to think about it.

[Much Fishing to Do]

I bet it's Scandinavia . . . they always seem to be the one good exception country.

Might wanna check with the Arabs in that part of the world, and right wing Scandi political parties are all about blaming everything on the Arabs.

It's been referred to as a racism crisis in Sweden.

Heh, yeah, the Swedes were really tolerant of other cultures until other cultures moved to Sweden...which pretty much makes them like everywhere else I guess.  it has got to be quite easy to be tolerant of a culture you don't interact with.  I grew up in a rural southern US town, half black & half white.  Was pretty clear cut the blacks hated at worst and distrusted at best the whites and the whites hated at worst and distrusted at best the blacks.  It kinda made practical sense given the consequences (I walked thru the wrong part of town as the sun set when I was 12 and got beaten to a pulp by a dozen youth with lead pipes).  Yet I don't think anyone that I met in that town had any hate or distrust toward Jewish people....I assume because we had never met a Jewish person so had no opinion of them (except that maybe Seinfeld was a pretty funny show).  Or at least none of them beat me with a pipe so no strong feelings were created.  So yeah, given the history and mix its pretty obvious Israel will be a mess forever, some years will just be hotter than others, and places like Sweden are much more new to it but it will grow over time.

[PeteD01]

I bet it's Scandinavia . . . they always seem to be the one good exception country.

Might wanna check with the Arabs in that part of the world, and right wing Scandi political parties are all about blaming everything on the Arabs.

It's been referred to as a racism crisis in Sweden.

Heh, yeah, the Swedes were really tolerant of other cultures until other cultures moved to Sweden...which pretty much makes them like everywhere else I guess.  it has got to be quite easy to be tolerant of a culture you don't interact with.

BS. Sweden has a long history of racism which just happened to not come up on the media radar for some time. They are just reverting to form. (And it is not just Sweden having this issue, Scandinavian countries do have a problem with integration of even long term resident immigrants)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Sweden 

I grew up in a rural southern US town, half black & half white.  Was pretty clear cut the blacks hated at worst and distrusted at best the whites and the whites hated at worst and distrusted at best the blacks.  It kinda made practical sense given the consequences (I walked thru the wrong part of town as the sun set when I was 12 and got beaten to a pulp by a dozen youth with lead pipes). 

Your experience growing up in a southern US town in the aftermath of slavery, civil war and Jim Crow has no parallel in the rest of the world in terms of recent history. That rest of the world is much less fucked up than what you experienced.
 
Yet I don't think anyone that I met in that town had any hate or distrust toward Jewish people....I assume because we had never met a Jewish person so had no opinion of them (except that maybe Seinfeld was a pretty funny show).  Or at least none of them beat me with a pipe so no strong feelings were created. 

Just for the record, Jewish people and Jewish persons are generally referred to as Jews. Your assiduous avoidance of the term makes me think that you are not as untouched by antisemitism as you might think (edit for clarity) by not personally knowing any Jews in your youth - or you run in circles where "Jew" is considered an insult. But whatever.
 
So yeah, given the history and mix its pretty obvious Israel will be a mess forever, some years will just be hotter than others, and places like Sweden are much more new to it but it will grow over time.

There is no reason to assume that Israel will be a mess forever and Sweden might just be on track to face its so far largely unacknowledged racism.

And finally, this thread is about Israel vs Hamas - not about your neuroses, so take it somewhere else.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

Looking at satellite photos and video, no nearby buildings were destroyed - actually the windows are intact, which is inconsistent with an Israeli air strike.  The parking lot has dozens of cars, with only 3 of them destroyed.  Most cars are intact - also not what happens with an air strike.  An air strike hitting a parking lot would leave a large crater.  Hitting a building, it would blow off one side of the building, potentially collapsing it.  But instead we have intact buildings without even their windows shattered, a few cars destroyed yet most are intact.  From what I've seen, it was not an air strike - Hamas (the terrorist organization) was lying.

What's disappointing is watching news stations trail by many hours behind what I've already seen.  It's almost like they want to milk the outrage (hospital explosion) and conflict (Israel said this ... Hamas said this ...) for as long as possible.  I still haven't seen any satellite images analyzed on a TV news station yet - but on Twitter I'm seeing it multiple times and several hours old.  Considering how fast "breaking news" appears on CNN, France24 and DW, I'm surprised at how slowly they're incorporating publicly available information.

[GuitarStv]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

Looking at satellite photos and video, no nearby buildings were destroyed - actually the windows are intact, which is inconsistent with an Israeli air strike.  The parking lot has dozens of cars, with only 3 of them destroyed.  Most cars are intact - also not what happens with an air strike.  An air strike hitting a parking lot would leave a large crater.  Hitting a building, it would blow off one side of the building, potentially collapsing it.  But instead we have intact buildings without even their windows shattered, a few cars destroyed yet most are intact.  From what I've seen, it was not an air strike - Hamas (the terrorist organization) was lying.

What's disappointing is watching news stations trail by many hours behind what I've already seen.  It's almost like they want to milk the outrage (hospital explosion) and conflict (Israel said this ... Hamas said this ...) for as long as possible.  I still haven't seen any satellite images analyzed on a TV news station yet - but on Twitter I'm seeing it multiple times and several hours old.  Considering how fast "breaking news" appears on CNN, France24 and DW, I'm surprised at how slowly they're incorporating publicly available information.

The same hospital was confirmed hit by Israeli rocket fire a couple days before and the surrounding buildings/parking lot were fine as well.  I don't think there's enough information to clearly say who is responsible.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

Looking at satellite photos and video, no nearby buildings were destroyed - actually the windows are intact, which is inconsistent with an Israeli air strike.  The parking lot has dozens of cars, with only 3 of them destroyed.  Most cars are intact - also not what happens with an air strike.  An air strike hitting a parking lot would leave a large crater.  Hitting a building, it would blow off one side of the building, potentially collapsing it.  But instead we have intact buildings without even their windows shattered, a few cars destroyed yet most are intact.  From what I've seen, it was not an air strike - Hamas (the terrorist organization) was lying.

What's disappointing is watching news stations trail by many hours behind what I've already seen.  It's almost like they want to milk the outrage (hospital explosion) and conflict (Israel said this ... Hamas said this ...) for as long as possible.  I still haven't seen any satellite images analyzed on a TV news station yet - but on Twitter I'm seeing it multiple times and several hours old.  Considering how fast "breaking news" appears on CNN, France24 and DW, I'm surprised at how slowly they're incorporating publicly available information.

The same hospital was confirmed hit by Israeli rocket fire a couple days before and the surrounding buildings/parking lot were fine as well.  I don't think there's enough information to clearly say who is responsible.

Maybe we can share / compare sources.  You said that exact hospital was hit a few days ago by Israeli rocket fire, and I'd like to see the source for that (couldn't find it searching briefly).

So that I avoid posting random Twitter users, I'll stick with what the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) posted 9h and 13h ago :

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714513625598021868
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714464412671557774

[dividendman]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

Looking at satellite photos and video, no nearby buildings were destroyed - actually the windows are intact, which is inconsistent with an Israeli air strike.  The parking lot has dozens of cars, with only 3 of them destroyed.  Most cars are intact - also not what happens with an air strike.  An air strike hitting a parking lot would leave a large crater.  Hitting a building, it would blow off one side of the building, potentially collapsing it.  But instead we have intact buildings without even their windows shattered, a few cars destroyed yet most are intact.  From what I've seen, it was not an air strike - Hamas (the terrorist organization) was lying.

What's disappointing is watching news stations trail by many hours behind what I've already seen.  It's almost like they want to milk the outrage (hospital explosion) and conflict (Israel said this ... Hamas said this ...) for as long as possible.  I still haven't seen any satellite images analyzed on a TV news station yet - but on Twitter I'm seeing it multiple times and several hours old.  Considering how fast "breaking news" appears on CNN, France24 and DW, I'm surprised at how slowly they're incorporating publicly available information.

The same hospital was confirmed hit by Israeli rocket fire a couple days before and the surrounding buildings/parking lot were fine as well.  I don't think there's enough information to clearly say who is responsible.

Maybe we can share / compare sources.  You said that exact hospital was hit a few days ago by Israeli rocket fire, and I'd like to see the source for that (couldn't find it searching briefly).

So that I avoid posting random Twitter users, I'll stick with what the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) posted 9h and 13h ago :

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714513625598021868
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714464412671557774

Multiple news sources are reporting that US intelligence has strong confidence that the Palestinian Islamic Jihad shot the rocket into the hospital. Biden indicated that as well during his conference with the Israeli PM.

[GuitarStv]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

Looking at satellite photos and video, no nearby buildings were destroyed - actually the windows are intact, which is inconsistent with an Israeli air strike.  The parking lot has dozens of cars, with only 3 of them destroyed.  Most cars are intact - also not what happens with an air strike.  An air strike hitting a parking lot would leave a large crater.  Hitting a building, it would blow off one side of the building, potentially collapsing it.  But instead we have intact buildings without even their windows shattered, a few cars destroyed yet most are intact.  From what I've seen, it was not an air strike - Hamas (the terrorist organization) was lying.

What's disappointing is watching news stations trail by many hours behind what I've already seen.  It's almost like they want to milk the outrage (hospital explosion) and conflict (Israel said this ... Hamas said this ...) for as long as possible.  I still haven't seen any satellite images analyzed on a TV news station yet - but on Twitter I'm seeing it multiple times and several hours old.  Considering how fast "breaking news" appears on CNN, France24 and DW, I'm surprised at how slowly they're incorporating publicly available information.

The same hospital was confirmed hit by Israeli rocket fire a couple days before and the surrounding buildings/parking lot were fine as well.  I don't think there's enough information to clearly say who is responsible.

Maybe we can share / compare sources.  You said that exact hospital was hit a few days ago by Israeli rocket fire, and I'd like to see the source for that (couldn't find it searching briefly).

So that I avoid posting random Twitter users, I'll stick with what the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) posted 9h and 13h ago :

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714513625598021868
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714464412671557774

Well, the archbishop and director of the hospital said so on facebook and provided pictures three days ago:

Our Arab Ahli Hospital in Gaza was hit this evening by the Israeli strikes…two floors were partially damaged and 4 people were injured. The Ultrasound and Mammography room was damaged!

- https://www.facebook.com/bishopnaoum/

It's also listed here among the other hospitals that have been attacked by Israel during this conflict - https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/attacks-health-care-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories-12-15-october-2023

[lemonlyman]

Did Hamas give forewarning when it shot rockets at the Israeli hospital in Ashkelon? No. Israel does not target civilian targets and if they do its because they determine Hamas is using it for other activities and give notice to evacuate. Unfortunately, Hamas hides behind the citizens they govern. Highly unlikely Israel attacked the hospital; there would be zero strategic gain in doing so. Israel and Hamas are having two different wars here. Hamas sent 2,000 fighters into Israel specifically targeting civilians killing 1,300 and taking hundreds of hostages of all ages. They committed every war crime possible on Oct. 7.

Hamas is a blight and a deterrent to normalization of the region. Just read their charter.

[snic]

Did Hamas give forewarning when it shot rockets at the Israeli hospital in Ashkelon? No. Israel does not target civilian targets and if they do its because they determine Hamas is using it for other activities and give notice to evacuate. Unfortunately, Hamas hides behind the citizens they govern. Highly unlikely Israel attacked the hospital; there would be zero strategic gain in doing so. Israel and Hamas are having two different wars here. Hamas sent 2,000 fighters into Israel specifically targeting civilians killing 1,300 and taking hundreds of hostages of all ages. They committed every war crime possible on Oct. 7.

Hamas is a blight and a deterrent to normalization of the region. Just read their charter.

No one is saying the Hamas attack was anything but a war crime.

Israel does target civilians, perhaps not for murder, but for punishment of crimes they did not commit. For example, there are countless instances of the families of those who've been accused of participating in anti-Israel militancy having their homes destroyed. One could also argue that not letting Palestinians who fled during the 1948 war to return was "targeting civilians".

[GuitarStv]

I agree that Hamas is a blight and a deterrent to normalization of the region.  That's why it has been so disappointing to see Israel's leadership help and empower them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas is not Palestinian civilians though, and Israel is currently mowing down a lot of civilians in the hopes that they kill 'bad guys'.  At the end of the day does it really matter if someone shot everyone in your family in the head, or if they died when a bomb collapsed their home into them?  Dead is dead, and wanton carelessness is the same as targeted malice.  And that doesn't even touch on the many innocent people starving and dying of thirst or treatable injuries because Israel is preventing all aid from entering the area, and shut off power and water.

Yes, Hamas is the 'bad guy'.  But unfortunately, Israel's government is clearly showing us that they are too.

[lemonlyman]

I agree that Hamas is a blight and a deterrent to normalization of the region.  That's why it has been so disappointing to see Israel's leadership help and empower them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas is not Palestinian civilians though, and Israel is currently mowing down a lot of civilians in the hopes that they kill 'bad guys'.  At the end of the day does it really matter if someone shot everyone in your family in the head, or if they died when a bomb collapsed their home into them?  Dead is dead, and wanton carelessness is the same as targeted malice.  And that doesn't even touch on the many innocent people starving and dying of thirst or treatable injuries because Israel is preventing all aid from entering the area, and shut off power and water.

Yes, Hamas is the 'bad guy'.  But unfortunately, Israel's government is clearly showing us that they are too.

I don't agree that dead is dead. There are so many reasons a bomb can go off target; from on the ground GPS jammers, misfires (like the hospital one that everyone was so quick to assume was Israel), human error, or bad intel. That is not the same as wantonly shooting at festival attendees hiding in portable toilets or shooting children in their bedrooms. There is a difference which is why, at least in the US, we have different charges for Murder and Manslaughter. I couldn't imagine it being my family either way. That's too big of an emotional toll, but to 3rd parties judging acts of violence like people on this forum or in a courtroom, it does.

[GuitarStv]

I agree that Hamas is a blight and a deterrent to normalization of the region.  That's why it has been so disappointing to see Israel's leadership help and empower them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas is not Palestinian civilians though, and Israel is currently mowing down a lot of civilians in the hopes that they kill 'bad guys'.  At the end of the day does it really matter if someone shot everyone in your family in the head, or if they died when a bomb collapsed their home into them?  Dead is dead, and wanton carelessness is the same as targeted malice.  And that doesn't even touch on the many innocent people starving and dying of thirst or treatable injuries because Israel is preventing all aid from entering the area, and shut off power and water.

Yes, Hamas is the 'bad guy'.  But unfortunately, Israel's government is clearly showing us that they are too.

I don't agree that dead is dead. There are so many reasons a bomb can go off target; from on the ground GPS jammers, misfires (like the hospital one that everyone was so quick to assume was Israel), human error, or bad intel. That is not the same as wantonly shooting at festival attendees hiding in portable toilets or shooting children in their bedrooms. There is a difference which is why, at least in the US, we have different charges for Murder and Manslaughter. I couldn't imagine it being my family either way. That's too big of an emotional toll, but to 3rd parties judging acts of violence like people on this forum or in a courtroom, it does.

According to your logic, if Hamas said that they had information that members of the IDF were at the music festival there would be no difference then right?  It was a military target, but whoops.  Just like the bombing.  But would the people still be dead?  Would the tragedy not hit exactly as hard?  Would you not be exactly as upset?  The only difference is the aggressors would be claiming incompetence rather than malice . .  . and I don't think that's any real comfort to anybody.  That's what I mean when I'm saying 'dead is dead'.

Even ignoring the bombing, deliberately blocking needed hospital supplies from getting to doctors looking after civilians in a war zone is murder.  There is no question that this action causes deaths by design.  Israel is currently doing this.  It's not a reasonable stance to take that Israel is somehow the good guy in this battle, particularly when you look the inevitability of the conflict based on how the Israeli government has acted.

[lemonlyman]

I agree that Hamas is a blight and a deterrent to normalization of the region.  That's why it has been so disappointing to see Israel's leadership help and empower them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas is not Palestinian civilians though, and Israel is currently mowing down a lot of civilians in the hopes that they kill 'bad guys'.  At the end of the day does it really matter if someone shot everyone in your family in the head, or if they died when a bomb collapsed their home into them?  Dead is dead, and wanton carelessness is the same as targeted malice.  And that doesn't even touch on the many innocent people starving and dying of thirst or treatable injuries because Israel is preventing all aid from entering the area, and shut off power and water.

Yes, Hamas is the 'bad guy'.  But unfortunately, Israel's government is clearly showing us that they are too.

I don't agree that dead is dead. There are so many reasons a bomb can go off target; from on the ground GPS jammers, misfires (like the hospital one that everyone was so quick to assume was Israel), human error, or bad intel. That is not the same as wantonly shooting at festival attendees hiding in portable toilets or shooting children in their bedrooms. There is a difference which is why, at least in the US, we have different charges for Murder and Manslaughter. I couldn't imagine it being my family either way. That's too big of an emotional toll, but to 3rd parties judging acts of violence like people on this forum or in a courtroom, it does.

According to your logic, if Hamas said that they had information that members of the IDF were at the music festival there would be no difference then right?  It was a military target, but whoops.  Just like the bombing.  But would the people still be dead?  Would the tragedy not hit exactly as hard?  Would you not be exactly as upset?  The only difference is the aggressors would be claiming incompetence rather than malice . .  . and I don't think that's any real comfort to anybody.  That's what I mean when I'm saying 'dead is dead'.

Even ignoring the bombing, deliberately blocking needed hospital supplies from getting to doctors looking after civilians in a war zone is murder.  There is no question that this action causes deaths by design.  Israel is currently doing this.  It's not a reasonable stance to take that Israel is somehow the good guy in this battle, particularly when you look the inevitability of the conflict based on how the Israeli government has acted.

In this insane hypothetical, would Hamas give advanced notification of the music festival they're targeting? Would IDF encourage Israeli civilians to continue attending and stand with them? How is that the same logic?

I know what you meant by saying dead is dead. That's why I described manslaughter and murder. You're saying there's no difference between manslaughter and murder. Which is clearly false in most state and international law. It's not about comfort relatives of victims. It's about intent under law which matters in local and international crimes. I believe Canadian law also makes the distinction.

Isreal offered the first week to turn utilities back on if Hamas would return the hundreds of hostages of Israeli and/or international citizenship. Hamas refused. They are still holding hundreds of hostages to no good end in sight.

There is no "Good Guy" in war and I never said that. But there is a bad guy under international law in this conflict and that is the terrorist organization named Hamas.

[EvenSteven]

I agree that Hamas is a blight and a deterrent to normalization of the region.  That's why it has been so disappointing to see Israel's leadership help and empower them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas is not Palestinian civilians though, and Israel is currently mowing down a lot of civilians in the hopes that they kill 'bad guys'.  At the end of the day does it really matter if someone shot everyone in your family in the head, or if they died when a bomb collapsed their home into them?  Dead is dead, and wanton carelessness is the same as targeted malice.  And that doesn't even touch on the many innocent people starving and dying of thirst or treatable injuries because Israel is preventing all aid from entering the area, and shut off power and water.

Yes, Hamas is the 'bad guy'.  But unfortunately, Israel's government is clearly showing us that they are too.

I don't agree that dead is dead. There are so many reasons a bomb can go off target; from on the ground GPS jammers, misfires (like the hospital one that everyone was so quick to assume was Israel), human error, or bad intel. That is not the same as wantonly shooting at festival attendees hiding in portable toilets or shooting children in their bedrooms. There is a difference which is why, at least in the US, we have different charges for Murder and Manslaughter. I couldn't imagine it being my family either way. That's too big of an emotional toll, but to 3rd parties judging acts of violence like people on this forum or in a courtroom, it does.

According to your logic, if Hamas said that they had information that members of the IDF were at the music festival there would be no difference then right?  It was a military target, but whoops.  Just like the bombing.  But would the people still be dead?  Would the tragedy not hit exactly as hard?  Would you not be exactly as upset?  The only difference is the aggressors would be claiming incompetence rather than malice . .  . and I don't think that's any real comfort to anybody.  That's what I mean when I'm saying 'dead is dead'.

Even ignoring the bombing, deliberately blocking needed hospital supplies from getting to doctors looking after civilians in a war zone is murder.  There is no question that this action causes deaths by design.  Israel is currently doing this.  It's not a reasonable stance to take that Israel is somehow the good guy in this battle, particularly when you look the inevitability of the conflict based on how the Israeli government has acted.

In this insane hypothetical, would Hamas give advanced notification of the music festival they're targeting? Would IDF encourage Israeli civilians to continue attending and stand with them? How is that the same logic?

I know what you meant by saying dead is dead. That's why I described manslaughter and murder. You're saying there's no difference between manslaughter and murder. Which is clearly false in most state and international law. It's not about comfort relatives of victims. It's about intent under law which matters in local and international crimes. I believe Canadian law also makes the distinction.

Isreal offered the first week to turn utilities back on if Hamas would return the hundreds of hostages of Israeli and/or international citizenship. Hamas refused. They are still holding hundreds of hostages to no good end in sight.

There is no "Good Guy" in war and I never said that. But there is a bad guy under international law in this conflict and that is the terrorist organization named Hamas.

This is wild. You are straight up endorsing collective punishment. Unless Hamas surrenders, Israel will continue to kill innocent Palestinian civilians. And you are excusing and defending this war crime.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

Looking at satellite photos and video, no nearby buildings were destroyed - actually the windows are intact, which is inconsistent with an Israeli air strike.  The parking lot has dozens of cars, with only 3 of them destroyed.  Most cars are intact - also not what happens with an air strike.  An air strike hitting a parking lot would leave a large crater.  Hitting a building, it would blow off one side of the building, potentially collapsing it.  But instead we have intact buildings without even their windows shattered, a few cars destroyed yet most are intact.  From what I've seen, it was not an air strike - Hamas (the terrorist organization) was lying.

What's disappointing is watching news stations trail by many hours behind what I've already seen.  It's almost like they want to milk the outrage (hospital explosion) and conflict (Israel said this ... Hamas said this ...) for as long as possible.  I still haven't seen any satellite images analyzed on a TV news station yet - but on Twitter I'm seeing it multiple times and several hours old.  Considering how fast "breaking news" appears on CNN, France24 and DW, I'm surprised at how slowly they're incorporating publicly available information.

The same hospital was confirmed hit by Israeli rocket fire a couple days before and the surrounding buildings/parking lot were fine as well.  I don't think there's enough information to clearly say who is responsible.

Maybe we can share / compare sources.  You said that exact hospital was hit a few days ago by Israeli rocket fire, and I'd like to see the source for that (couldn't find it searching briefly).

So that I avoid posting random Twitter users, I'll stick with what the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) posted 9h and 13h ago :

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714513625598021868
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714464412671557774

Well, the archbishop and director of the hospital said so on facebook and provided pictures three days ago:

Our Arab Ahli Hospital in Gaza was hit this evening by the Israeli strikes…two floors were partially damaged and 4 people were injured. The Ultrasound and Mammography room was damaged!

- https://www.facebook.com/bishopnaoum/

It's also listed here among the other hospitals that have been attacked by Israel during this conflict - https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/attacks-health-care-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories-12-15-october-2023

NOTE to others: GuitarStv and I are discussing an earlier event from 4 days ago, which was claimed to happen at the same hospital.

I see 3 photos on that Facebook page.  One is a generic photo of the Arab Ahli Hospital that also appears on Google Maps.  The other two show a hole which is roughly 3-4 feet in diameter.  It looks like a cabinet or desk was broken apart, with a few intact pieces of wood on the floor.  Everything is covered in dust.

Why are so many objects intact?  The lack of destruction leads me to question if an air strike caused the damage.

You pointed to the Archbishop's Facebook page (4 days ago), where he claims "Our Arab Ahli Hospital in Gaza was hit this evening by the Israeli strikes…two floors were partially damaged and 4 people were injured. The Ultrasound and Mammography room was damaged!"

And yet when asked about the more recent strike, and who is to blame:

“What we know is what we saw on the TV. We are people of the cloth, we are people of the Church . . . we are not military experts,” he said. “Who did this is not for us to determine, or to give judgement, but let people see what is happening on the ground, and we hope that people will come to the conclusion: enough with this war.”

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/20-october/news/world/archbishop-in-jerusalem-strike-on-anglican-hospital-in-gaza-is-crime-against-humanity

This doesn't look like an air strike to me.  I don't see any signs of an explosion, just a hole in the wall.  I think the Archbishop was speculating, and showing the lack of military expertise he admits to more recently.

[lemonlyman]

I agree that Hamas is a blight and a deterrent to normalization of the region.  That's why it has been so disappointing to see Israel's leadership help and empower them.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Hamas is not Palestinian civilians though, and Israel is currently mowing down a lot of civilians in the hopes that they kill 'bad guys'.  At the end of the day does it really matter if someone shot everyone in your family in the head, or if they died when a bomb collapsed their home into them?  Dead is dead, and wanton carelessness is the same as targeted malice.  And that doesn't even touch on the many innocent people starving and dying of thirst or treatable injuries because Israel is preventing all aid from entering the area, and shut off power and water.

Yes, Hamas is the 'bad guy'.  But unfortunately, Israel's government is clearly showing us that they are too.

I don't agree that dead is dead. There are so many reasons a bomb can go off target; from on the ground GPS jammers, misfires (like the hospital one that everyone was so quick to assume was Israel), human error, or bad intel. That is not the same as wantonly shooting at festival attendees hiding in portable toilets or shooting children in their bedrooms. There is a difference which is why, at least in the US, we have different charges for Murder and Manslaughter. I couldn't imagine it being my family either way. That's too big of an emotional toll, but to 3rd parties judging acts of violence like people on this forum or in a courtroom, it does.

According to your logic, if Hamas said that they had information that members of the IDF were at the music festival there would be no difference then right?  It was a military target, but whoops.  Just like the bombing.  But would the people still be dead?  Would the tragedy not hit exactly as hard?  Would you not be exactly as upset?  The only difference is the aggressors would be claiming incompetence rather than malice . .  . and I don't think that's any real comfort to anybody.  That's what I mean when I'm saying 'dead is dead'.

Even ignoring the bombing, deliberately blocking needed hospital supplies from getting to doctors looking after civilians in a war zone is murder.  There is no question that this action causes deaths by design.  Israel is currently doing this.  It's not a reasonable stance to take that Israel is somehow the good guy in this battle, particularly when you look the inevitability of the conflict based on how the Israeli government has acted.

In this insane hypothetical, would Hamas give advanced notification of the music festival they're targeting? Would IDF encourage Israeli civilians to continue attending and stand with them? How is that the same logic?

I know what you meant by saying dead is dead. That's why I described manslaughter and murder. You're saying there's no difference between manslaughter and murder. Which is clearly false in most state and international law. It's not about comfort relatives of victims. It's about intent under law which matters in local and international crimes. I believe Canadian law also makes the distinction.

Isreal offered the first week to turn utilities back on if Hamas would return the hundreds of hostages of Israeli and/or international citizenship. Hamas refused. They are still holding hundreds of hostages to no good end in sight.

There is no "Good Guy" in war and I never said that. But there is a bad guy under international law in this conflict and that is the terrorist organization named Hamas.

This is wild. You are straight up endorsing collective punishment. Unless Hamas surrenders, Israel will continue to kill innocent Palestinian civilians. And you are excusing and defending this war crime.

Ok. Again, not what I said. I stated a fact.

[GuitarStv]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

Looking at satellite photos and video, no nearby buildings were destroyed - actually the windows are intact, which is inconsistent with an Israeli air strike.  The parking lot has dozens of cars, with only 3 of them destroyed.  Most cars are intact - also not what happens with an air strike.  An air strike hitting a parking lot would leave a large crater.  Hitting a building, it would blow off one side of the building, potentially collapsing it.  But instead we have intact buildings without even their windows shattered, a few cars destroyed yet most are intact.  From what I've seen, it was not an air strike - Hamas (the terrorist organization) was lying.

What's disappointing is watching news stations trail by many hours behind what I've already seen.  It's almost like they want to milk the outrage (hospital explosion) and conflict (Israel said this ... Hamas said this ...) for as long as possible.  I still haven't seen any satellite images analyzed on a TV news station yet - but on Twitter I'm seeing it multiple times and several hours old.  Considering how fast "breaking news" appears on CNN, France24 and DW, I'm surprised at how slowly they're incorporating publicly available information.

The same hospital was confirmed hit by Israeli rocket fire a couple days before and the surrounding buildings/parking lot were fine as well.  I don't think there's enough information to clearly say who is responsible.

Maybe we can share / compare sources.  You said that exact hospital was hit a few days ago by Israeli rocket fire, and I'd like to see the source for that (couldn't find it searching briefly).

So that I avoid posting random Twitter users, I'll stick with what the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) posted 9h and 13h ago :

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714513625598021868
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714464412671557774

Well, the archbishop and director of the hospital said so on facebook and provided pictures three days ago:

Our Arab Ahli Hospital in Gaza was hit this evening by the Israeli strikes…two floors were partially damaged and 4 people were injured. The Ultrasound and Mammography room was damaged!

- https://www.facebook.com/bishopnaoum/

It's also listed here among the other hospitals that have been attacked by Israel during this conflict - https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/attacks-health-care-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories-12-15-october-2023

NOTE to others: GuitarStv and I are discussing an earlier event from 4 days ago, which was claimed to happen at the same hospital.

I see 3 photos on that Facebook page.  One is a generic photo of the Arab Ahli Hospital that also appears on Google Maps.  The other two show a hole which is roughly 3-4 feet in diameter.  It looks like a cabinet or desk was broken apart, with a few intact pieces of wood on the floor.  Everything is covered in dust.

Why are so many objects intact?  The lack of destruction leads me to question if an air strike caused the damage.

You pointed to the Archbishop's Facebook page (4 days ago), where he claims "Our Arab Ahli Hospital in Gaza was hit this evening by the Israeli strikes…two floors were partially damaged and 4 people were injured. The Ultrasound and Mammography room was damaged!"

And yet when asked about the more recent strike, and who is to blame:

“What we know is what we saw on the TV. We are people of the cloth, we are people of the Church . . . we are not military experts,” he said. “Who did this is not for us to determine, or to give judgement, but let people see what is happening on the ground, and we hope that people will come to the conclusion: enough with this war.”

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/20-october/news/world/archbishop-in-jerusalem-strike-on-anglican-hospital-in-gaza-is-crime-against-humanity

This doesn't look like an air strike to me.  I don't see any signs of an explosion, just a hole in the wall.  I think the Archbishop was speculating, and showing the lack of military expertise he admits to more recently.

Sure, that's a possibility.

I think that it's at least equally possible that debris thrown up by or small ordinance fired by the Israeli army is responsible for the damage.

FWIW, I don't think that Israel is directly targeting hospitals for attack, but would be very surprised if they're not regularly hitting these hospitals while firing all around them.  I mean, of the 19 journalists that they've killed so far in the conflict, there's even video of them shelling clearly marked journalists: (https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/15/reuters-journalist-killed-lebanon-israel-cprog-orig-bu.cnn).  Israel is very clearly not showing concern for what people they hurt.

As far as the more recent attack that completely blew up al-Ahli, most of the reasoning I've seen that it was from Hamas is just Israel saying 'we would have blown bigger holes so it wasn't us'.  That's not very convincing evidence given the massive amount of collateral damage that their attack has done so far.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Looks like someone just bombed a busy Gaza city hospital in Palestine . . . killing at least 500 doctors and patients.

Looking at satellite photos and video, no nearby buildings were destroyed - actually the windows are intact, which is inconsistent with an Israeli air strike.  The parking lot has dozens of cars, with only 3 of them destroyed.  Most cars are intact - also not what happens with an air strike.  An air strike hitting a parking lot would leave a large crater.  Hitting a building, it would blow off one side of the building, potentially collapsing it.  But instead we have intact buildings without even their windows shattered, a few cars destroyed yet most are intact.  From what I've seen, it was not an air strike - Hamas (the terrorist organization) was lying.

What's disappointing is watching news stations trail by many hours behind what I've already seen.  It's almost like they want to milk the outrage (hospital explosion) and conflict (Israel said this ... Hamas said this ...) for as long as possible.  I still haven't seen any satellite images analyzed on a TV news station yet - but on Twitter I'm seeing it multiple times and several hours old.  Considering how fast "breaking news" appears on CNN, France24 and DW, I'm surprised at how slowly they're incorporating publicly available information.

The same hospital was confirmed hit by Israeli rocket fire a couple days before and the surrounding buildings/parking lot were fine as well.  I don't think there's enough information to clearly say who is responsible.

Maybe we can share / compare sources.  You said that exact hospital was hit a few days ago by Israeli rocket fire, and I'd like to see the source for that (couldn't find it searching briefly).

So that I avoid posting random Twitter users, I'll stick with what the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) posted 9h and 13h ago :

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714513625598021868
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714464412671557774

Well, the archbishop and director of the hospital said so on facebook and provided pictures three days ago:

Our Arab Ahli Hospital in Gaza was hit this evening by the Israeli strikes…two floors were partially damaged and 4 people were injured. The Ultrasound and Mammography room was damaged!

- https://www.facebook.com/bishopnaoum/

It's also listed here among the other hospitals that have been attacked by Israel during this conflict - https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/attacks-health-care-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories-12-15-october-2023

NOTE to others: GuitarStv and I are discussing an earlier event from 4 days ago, which was claimed to happen at the same hospital.

I see 3 photos on that Facebook page.  One is a generic photo of the Arab Ahli Hospital that also appears on Google Maps.  The other two show a hole which is roughly 3-4 feet in diameter.  It looks like a cabinet or desk was broken apart, with a few intact pieces of wood on the floor.  Everything is covered in dust.

Why are so many objects intact?  The lack of destruction leads me to question if an air strike caused the damage.

You pointed to the Archbishop's Facebook page (4 days ago), where he claims "Our Arab Ahli Hospital in Gaza was hit this evening by the Israeli strikes…two floors were partially damaged and 4 people were injured. The Ultrasound and Mammography room was damaged!"

And yet when asked about the more recent strike, and who is to blame:

“What we know is what we saw on the TV. We are people of the cloth, we are people of the Church . . . we are not military experts,” he said. “Who did this is not for us to determine, or to give judgement, but let people see what is happening on the ground, and we hope that people will come to the conclusion: enough with this war.”

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/20-october/news/world/archbishop-in-jerusalem-strike-on-anglican-hospital-in-gaza-is-crime-against-humanity

This doesn't look like an air strike to me.  I don't see any signs of an explosion, just a hole in the wall.  I think the Archbishop was speculating, and showing the lack of military expertise he admits to more recently.

Sure, that's a possibility.

I think that it's at least equally possible that debris thrown up by or small ordinance fired by the Israeli army is responsible for the damage.

FWIW, I don't think that Israel is directly targeting hospitals for attack, but would be very surprised if they're not regularly hitting these hospitals while firing all around them.  I mean, of the 19 journalists that they've killed so far in the conflict, there's even video of them shelling clearly marked journalists: (https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/15/reuters-journalist-killed-lebanon-israel-cprog-orig-bu.cnn).  Israel is very clearly not showing concern for what people they hurt.

As far as the more recent attack that completely blew up al-Ahli, most of the reasoning I've seen that it was from Hamas is just Israel saying 'we would have blown bigger holes so it wasn't us'.  That's not very convincing evidence given the massive amount of collateral damage that their attack has done so far.

You claim the "more recent attack" "completely blew up al-Ahli".  Do you have a source for that?

The following France24 article begins with a recent image of the intact hospital - the same one you claim has been completely blown up.  This looks like the same hospital shown on the Archbishop's Facebook page, and shown in Google Maps.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231018-what-we-know-about-the-deadly-blast-at-gaza-city-s-al-ahli-hospital