Author Topic: Israel vs Hamas  (Read 116325 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #200 on: October 24, 2023, 01:25:28 PM »


A good first step would be withholding any/all military aid to Israel until the Israelis choose to fix some of their human rights abuses.

- Full voting rights in Israeli elections for all Palestinians ruled by Israel (so all Palestinians)
- An end to separate legal treatment for Palestinians when compared to Israeli citizens in the Israeli legal system
- A return of the thousands of Palestinians currently detained without charges or hope of due process in Israeli prisons
- A permanent end to all Israeli government support of Hamas (and laws to prevent support of other terror groups in the future)
- An end to all Israeli 'settlements' illegal under international law, jail time for all Israelis found squatting on such lands, and return of all stolen land to Palestinian landowners

This would be a reasonable starting place, and would cover many of the worst complaints that Palestinians have regarding the apartheid they're living under.

Gaza isn't actually ruled by Israel is it?   Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and it's now ruled by Hamas...

What is this "Israeli government support of Hamas" all about?   I though the Iranian government was supporting Hamas, why would the Israelis support them?

You've got a point about the detentions and the Israeli settler actions in the west bank.

What was the first thing that Israel did when this conflict started?  They cut off the power, water, and food to Gaza and shut all of Gaza's borders.  I don't know what you could call that other than complete and total rule.  Gaza has been a defacto Israeli state for decades.

Netanyahu has a long history of (publicly and privately) supporting Hamas as a way of preventing moderate Palestinians from getting into power to prevent any chance of a two state solution.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2023/10/20/23923953/israel-hamas-war-palestine-netanyahu-likud-government-gene-lyons
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4268794-the-symbiotic-relationship-between-netanyahu-and-hamas/

Most of Gaza's GDP comes from foreign aid including hundreds of millions from Iran and Turkey annually. Only 10-20% of the water comes from Israel.

That's sophistry.  Since 2007 Israel has also imposed full control of entry or exit of people into Gaza by air, land, and sea.  100% of the goods going into or out of Palestine depend on the Israelis allowing them to go through.

"We are putting a complete siege on Gaza … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed" - Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant a few hours after the attack by Hamas.  A siege that started before the attack and will continue until Israel decides it will end.

Sounds an awful lot like complete and total control to me.


Posting opinion pieces including Israel giving Gazan's work permits to support calling Gaza a Israeli state is a stretch. A big one. Hamas and Israel have been in conflict since 2008.

Occasionally Israel allows Palestinians out to do manual labor for cheap rates.  This is part of the ongoing apartheid.  Hamas and Israel have been in conflict pretty much since the group broke away from the Muslim Brotherhood in the 80s.

But that's not why I call Gaza an Israeli state.  It's the total lack of autonomy over their borders.


And Israel does not control Gaza's border with Egypt nor Hamas negotiations for fuel purchasing from Egypt.

Again, sophistry.  Technically there's a border with Egypt from Gaza.  No goods can cross it without Israeli say so, as the current siege against the civilians in Gaza shows pretty clearly.

It's not true goods can't cross Gaza's border with Egypt without Israel's say so. Where are you getting that? Egypt closed its own border to Gaza not Israel. Egypt doesn't want Gazan refugees. Nor does Jordan.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/egypt-rafah-crossing-aid-enter-gaza-why-closed-israel-us-egypt
"In 2008, tens of thousands of Palestinians crossed into Sinai after Hamas blasted holes in border fortifications, prompting Egypt to build a stone and cement wall."

So Israel is supporting Hamas by allowing work permits but it's also part of apartheid? Ok.

The truth is Gaza has no border controls because its government is a terrorist state. Egypt's closed border is backed by the Palestinian Authority because Hamas is too dangerous to let run amok with their own autonomy.

Actually, that's a fair point about Egypt.  Yes, Israel bombed the Rafah crossing immediately to make it impassible but it would have been possible for Egypt to send stuff through if they really wanted to.

Egypt's stated reasons for not wanting to accept Palestinians:
- Egypt is too poor to take care of them
- Egypt doesn't have the security to prevent Hamas from joining in the refugees
- Egypt doesn't want to participate in ethnic cleansing (assuming that Israel wants to secure Gaza as it's own by pushing all the Palestinians out)

I suspect that Egypt is really just trying to leverage the situation with the Palestinians to get some aid deals of it's own.

ATtiny85

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #201 on: October 24, 2023, 02:00:12 PM »

Actually, that's a fair point about Egypt.  Yes, Israel bombed the Rafah crossing immediately to make it impassible but it would have been possible for Egypt to send stuff through if they really wanted to.

Egypt's stated reasons for not wanting to accept Palestinians:
- Egypt is too poor to take care of them
- Egypt doesn't have the security to prevent Hamas from joining in the refugees
- Egypt doesn't want to participate in ethnic cleansing (assuming that Israel wants to secure Gaza as it's own by pushing all the Palestinians out)

I suspect that Egypt is really just trying to leverage the situation with the Palestinians to get some aid deals of it's own.

Yeah, not sure there would be clarity on all this if we actually understood the various motivations of the peripheral players (forget about the direct players), and since there are so many layers to it, I just don't see how this is going to calm down quickly.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #202 on: October 24, 2023, 02:21:28 PM »
Actually, that's a fair point about Egypt.  Yes, Israel bombed the Rafah crossing immediately to make it impassible but it would have been possible for Egypt to send stuff through if they really wanted to.

Egypt's stated reasons for not wanting to accept Palestinians:
- Egypt is too poor to take care of them
- Egypt doesn't have the security to prevent Hamas from joining in the refugees
- Egypt doesn't want to participate in ethnic cleansing (assuming that Israel wants to secure Gaza as it's own by pushing all the Palestinians out)

I suspect that Egypt is really just trying to leverage the situation with the Palestinians to get some aid deals of it's own.
There's a religious component too. If any country offered refuge to the Palestinians, millions would likely take the offer. For the Muslim countries, that would be problematic because they would be complicit in the Arab depopulation of the holy land. So Egypt, with its concrete wall, is saying to the Palestinians "no you must stay right here and don't give up the land". That way, any ethnic cleansing would be blamed on the Israelis, and the pressures to fight Israel are diverted out of Egypt and into the Palestinian territories. It keeps Egyptian hands clean either way, even though they are technically one of the many countries forcing the Palestinians to live in an open-air prison run by gangs.

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #203 on: October 24, 2023, 03:45:54 PM »
Gaza does not have a settlement or ethnic cleansing issue. That’s the West Bank. Israel stopped occupying Gaza and removed settlements in 2006. Gaza elected Hamas to govern them and Hamas quickly ran off Fatah, squandered Gaza reconstruction funds, and started attacks. Gaza has a terrorism and extremism problem at the institutional level which Egypt recognizes.

West Bank which contains portions of Jerusalem is a whole other can of worms and does have all those issues.

If Israel was trying to commit ethnic cleansing on Gaza, leaving in the first place was weird decision.

sonofsven

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #204 on: October 24, 2023, 07:49:25 PM »
Well, many "foreign policy" decisions are actually due to internal politics. So, much of Israel's relationship to Gaza is due to those factors; as much or more than actually dealing with Palestinians on any sort of level. Same with Gaza and Hamas pushing out the corrupt Palestinian Authority.

Palestinians in Gaza are being held hostage to the terrorist impulses of the Hamas "leadership" and are being duly sacrificed as convenient human shields.

Similarly, the moderate and left wing population of Israel, who overwhelmingly were the residents of the kibbutz villages that were recently attacked, were sacrificed by the extreme right wing government of Israel, who has been so busy pushing for the agenda of the extreme right wing settler faction and working to change the constitution to keep Netanyahu out of jail.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #205 on: October 25, 2023, 07:20:20 AM »
Or perhaps it is all really basic at its core...'death to the infidel' vs 'return to the promised land'. Even if Israel is largely secular, the momentum is overwhelming. The showdown is chiseled in stone tablets and written in ancient scrolls and the mindless drones just follow their 'celestial' instructions. Plenty of Evangelical Christian and Islamic proxy masters are standing by, ready to push the prophecies along and provide salvation to the dead. How wonderful.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #206 on: October 25, 2023, 09:11:55 AM »
Latest numbers show that 2360 children have died to date from the bombings (5791 Palestinians total).  Unclear how many civilians have died from thirst or medically treatable disease due to the ongoing blockade, but the number will continue to rise.

waltworks

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #207 on: October 25, 2023, 03:12:55 PM »
My wife and I were discussing this last night and she pointed out that Hamas is essentially fighting by medieval warfare rules (ie, essentially none) and Israel is kinda sorta trying to follow modern laws of war.

If Hamas did something like this in, say, Roman times, the Romans would just show up, kill every last living thing, and then salt the earth, and that would be the end of it. And then nobody would even consider pulling a Hamas again for centuries.

But since you can't act that way now, Hamas is essentially impossible to defeat. Unless you're willing to throw out modern morality and just kill everyone.

Israel is in a no-win situation here, basically.

-W

dividendman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #208 on: October 25, 2023, 03:54:40 PM »
Latest numbers show that 2360 children have died to date from the bombings (5791 Palestinians total).  Unclear how many civilians have died from thirst or medically treatable disease due to the ongoing blockade, but the number will continue to rise.

Half of the population is under 18 so the casualties, if accurate, seem to mimic that.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #209 on: October 25, 2023, 06:38:29 PM »
My wife and I were discussing this last night and she pointed out that Hamas is essentially fighting by medieval warfare rules (ie, essentially none) and Israel is kinda sorta trying to follow modern laws of war.

If Hamas did something like this in, say, Roman times, the Romans would just show up, kill every last living thing, and then salt the earth, and that would be the end of it. And then nobody would even consider pulling a Hamas again for centuries.

But since you can't act that way now, Hamas is essentially impossible to defeat. Unless you're willing to throw out modern morality and just kill everyone.

Israel is in a no-win situation here, basically.

-W

Is this really just a distinction of wealth though?

Hamas are terrorists fighting a guerilla war against an oppressing nation.  It has some pickup trucks, a big network of tunnels dug by hand, rifles, an endless supply of dumb rockets, and tea towel face armor.  They are badly outmatched any way you look at things and their attacks are rarely potent.  They choose to target civilians or military stuff whenever it comes available.

Israel has massive military might and gets a whopping new influx of US dollars every year.  They have the drones, satellites, anti-rocket technology, smart missiles and bombs of every kind, the most accurate artillery, a modern air force, one of the most renowned spy agencies in the world and the support of every western country.  They are easily able to prevent the majority of civilian deaths and civilian suffering, but doing so makes fighting much more difficult for the military so they often choose not to.

I don't know if 'kinda sorta following the laws of engagement' for Israel is really much different than not following them at all given that.  Israel has to keep up just the bare minimum pretense of being on the right side in order to maintain their foreign military aid that they get - and honestly they don't seem to do much more than that.

Militarily, I agree . . . there isn't really a winning end game for this other than genocide.  That doesn't mean that a winning end game doesn't exist, but it has to come from a very different tack.  You know who doesn't want to pick up a gun and give their life to kill a few of their neighbouring country?  A comfortable middle class with kids in college, a solid job, a good future, a safe houses to live in and plenty of food and water.  The harder you oppress a people, the more you take from them and deny them, the more resentment and rebellion you will breed . . . which directly feeds back into the whole cycle of violence.  Not saying this is an easy path, but it's the only non-genocidal one that I think could work.

EvenSteven

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #210 on: October 25, 2023, 06:53:39 PM »
My wife and I were discussing this last night and she pointed out that Hamas is essentially fighting by medieval warfare rules (ie, essentially none) and Israel is kinda sorta trying to follow modern laws of war.

If Hamas did something like this in, say, Roman times, the Romans would just show up, kill every last living thing, and then salt the earth, and that would be the end of it. And then nobody would even consider pulling a Hamas again for centuries.

But since you can't act that way now, Hamas is essentially impossible to defeat. Unless you're willing to throw out modern morality and just kill everyone.

Israel is in a no-win situation here, basically.

-W

As long as we restrict the solution space to military action, I agree. Seems the answer then is expand the solution space beyond just military action.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #211 on: October 25, 2023, 06:57:56 PM »
Gaza does not have a settlement or ethnic cleansing issue. That’s the West Bank. Israel stopped occupying Gaza and removed settlements in 2006. Gaza elected Hamas to govern them and Hamas quickly ran off Fatah, squandered Gaza reconstruction funds, and started attacks. Gaza has a terrorism and extremism problem at the institutional level which Egypt recognizes.

West Bank which contains portions of Jerusalem is a whole other can of worms and does have all those issues.

If Israel was trying to commit ethnic cleansing on Gaza, leaving in the first place was weird decision.
So arguably Hamas is doing a better job of advancing its people's interests than Fatah.

dang1

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #212 on: October 26, 2023, 01:01:27 AM »
Gaza does not have a settlement or ethnic cleansing issue. That’s the West Bank. Israel stopped occupying Gaza and removed settlements in 2006. Gaza elected Hamas to govern them and Hamas quickly ran off Fatah, squandered Gaza reconstruction funds, and started attacks. Gaza has a terrorism and extremism problem at the institutional level which Egypt recognizes.

West Bank which contains portions of Jerusalem is a whole other can of worms and does have all those issues.

If Israel was trying to commit ethnic cleansing on Gaza, leaving in the first place was weird decision.
So arguably Hamas is doing a better job of advancing its people's interests than Fatah.

Fatah: "we do a great job of advancing the Palestinian people's interests"

hummus: "hold my beer"

Kris

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #213 on: October 26, 2023, 05:42:17 AM »
Gaza does not have a settlement or ethnic cleansing issue. That’s the West Bank. Israel stopped occupying Gaza and removed settlements in 2006. Gaza elected Hamas to govern them and Hamas quickly ran off Fatah, squandered Gaza reconstruction funds, and started attacks. Gaza has a terrorism and extremism problem at the institutional level which Egypt recognizes.

West Bank which contains portions of Jerusalem is a whole other can of worms and does have all those issues.

If Israel was trying to commit ethnic cleansing on Gaza, leaving in the first place was weird decision.
So arguably Hamas is doing a better job of advancing its people's interests than Fatah.

Fatah: "we do a great job of advancing the Palestinian people's interests"

hummus: "hold my beer"

Can I ask, is there a reason you keep writing hummus instead of Hamas?

lemonlyman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #214 on: October 26, 2023, 07:06:50 AM »
Gaza does not have a settlement or ethnic cleansing issue. That’s the West Bank. Israel stopped occupying Gaza and removed settlements in 2006. Gaza elected Hamas to govern them and Hamas quickly ran off Fatah, squandered Gaza reconstruction funds, and started attacks. Gaza has a terrorism and extremism problem at the institutional level which Egypt recognizes.

West Bank which contains portions of Jerusalem is a whole other can of worms and does have all those issues.

If Israel was trying to commit ethnic cleansing on Gaza, leaving in the first place was weird decision.
So arguably Hamas is doing a better job of advancing its people's interests than Fatah.

I guess the argument could be made, but it would be hard to make it hold water. Per capita income of West Bank Palestinians is 4x Gaza Palestinians.

Hamas wasn't the reason Gaza became unoccupied, but it is the reason it's now a hellscape. If Gaza had become a functional proto Palestinian state under the Oslo Accords instead of a terrorist hub, maybe the West Bank could have followed suit and a two state solution would be much closer than it is or even achieved.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #215 on: October 26, 2023, 09:14:31 AM »
If this ground war thing happens, there could be a lot of people who get entombed alive. I'd bet the abducted people will be dispersed throughout the tunnel system. I don't know if Hamas has plenty of effective gas masks. Maybe Israel has specialized fire-around-corners rifle and other tunnel war gear...drilling or flooding. Or maybe just be patient and use attrition. Nasty business in any event. I hope this can all be avoided somehow.

dang1

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #216 on: October 26, 2023, 09:40:15 AM »
Gaza .. decision.
So arguably Hamas is doing a better job of advancing its people's interests than Fatah.

Fatah: "we do a great job of advancing the Palestinian people's interests"

hummus: "hold my beer"

Can I ask, is there a reason you keep writing hummus instead of Hamas?
supremely-spicy
https://sabra.com/dips/hummus/supremely-spicy-hummus.html

Kris

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #217 on: October 26, 2023, 10:06:08 AM »
Gaza .. decision.
So arguably Hamas is doing a better job of advancing its people's interests than Fatah.

Fatah: "we do a great job of advancing the Palestinian people's interests"

hummus: "hold my beer"

Can I ask, is there a reason you keep writing hummus instead of Hamas?
supremely-spicy
https://sabra.com/dips/hummus/supremely-spicy-hummus.html

Okay, can I have an actual answer, or no?

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #218 on: October 26, 2023, 10:15:35 AM »
My wife and I were discussing this last night and she pointed out that Hamas is essentially fighting by medieval warfare rules (ie, essentially none) and Israel is kinda sorta trying to follow modern laws of war.

If Hamas did something like this in, say, Roman times, the Romans would just show up, kill every last living thing, and then salt the earth, and that would be the end of it. And then nobody would even consider pulling a Hamas again for centuries.

But since you can't act that way now, Hamas is essentially impossible to defeat. Unless you're willing to throw out modern morality and just kill everyone.

Israel is in a no-win situation here, basically.

-W

Hamas is practicing Lawfare - using the rule of law (such as it exists in terms of war, international relations, etc.) against their opponent. Hamas can setup a rocket launcher in the playground of a school and if Israel attacks it, they get to claim Israel just blew up a school. If there was no law of armed conflict then Israel wouldn't feel constrained to try and avoid civilian casualties. Hamas also wouldn't have any reason to use human shields. However, the logical conclusion of that would be complete genocide/extermination ala the Romans, the Mongols, or any other group in history facing an enemy they couldn't subdue, etc.

It's the same problem every democratic country has faced in warfare over the last several decades. Russia has no need to restrict their attacks in Ukraine to military targets - they deliberately target civilians all the time. Same with Syria or any other autocratic country. But they're all quick to point out the splinter in their opponents eye when civilians are accidentally killed, while ignoring the log in their own eye.

partgypsy

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #219 on: October 26, 2023, 10:55:33 AM »
what I find interesting, is when I first spoke to my friend who is originally from Morocco, his first comments were "Hamas has got to go" and "they bit off more than they could swallow". He stated that Egypt and other countries do not want to admit Palestinians because of Hamas causing problems in those other countries. He is also worried that more countries might join in the war. But overall the way he discussed it, despite being Muslim, is that is is natural that Israel would defend its borders after an attack like this. We both agree that the Palestinan people are caught in the middle. He also said even if there were clear roadways and a path to escape, that many would NOT leave, because they fear if they left, that Israel would occupy that land and they would not be able to go back. It's like a huge game of chicken. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #220 on: October 26, 2023, 12:43:47 PM »
My wife and I were discussing this last night and she pointed out that Hamas is essentially fighting by medieval warfare rules (ie, essentially none) and Israel is kinda sorta trying to follow modern laws of war.

If Hamas did something like this in, say, Roman times, the Romans would just show up, kill every last living thing, and then salt the earth, and that would be the end of it. And then nobody would even consider pulling a Hamas again for centuries.

But since you can't act that way now, Hamas is essentially impossible to defeat. Unless you're willing to throw out modern morality and just kill everyone.

Israel is in a no-win situation here, basically.

-W
Hamas is practicing Lawfare - using the rule of law (such as it exists in terms of war, international relations, etc.) against their opponent. Hamas can setup a rocket launcher in the playground of a school and if Israel attacks it, they get to claim Israel just blew up a school. If there was no law of armed conflict then Israel wouldn't feel constrained to try and avoid civilian casualties. Hamas also wouldn't have any reason to use human shields. However, the logical conclusion of that would be complete genocide/extermination ala the Romans, the Mongols, or any other group in history facing an enemy they couldn't subdue, etc.

It's the same problem every democratic country has faced in warfare over the last several decades. Russia has no need to restrict their attacks in Ukraine to military targets - they deliberately target civilians all the time. Same with Syria or any other autocratic country. But they're all quick to point out the splinter in their opponents eye when civilians are accidentally killed, while ignoring the log in their own eye.
War is the suspension of our laws against killing, directed at some "other" group. It will never be a moral activity, but people who lived through the horrors have tried to put it in a box.

Various attempts have been made to keep war within the boundaries of military forces, to restrict attacks on civilians, to restrict certain types of weapons such as chemicals or nukes, and to prohibit things like torture and ethnic cleansing. Arguably these attempts have failed and there has never been a fully "lawful" war, but on the flipside we aren't (yet) living in a world where the Israelis are dropping Sarin gas on Gaza and exterminating millions, the Serbians were running concentration camps, or the Russians are using tactical nukes to exterminate the Ukrainians. That world would certainly come if we gave up the political pressure to put boundaries on warfare.

The issue is some organizations are immune to such pressure, and have nothing to lose in terms of their international standing. Hamas, Syria,  the Taliban, Boko Haram, and Al Quada/ISIS can apply "might makes right" ideologies to limit the outrage of their own populations, while attempting to obtain asymmetric advantages wherever they can. Currently, most "laws of war" violations are committed by non-state actors and religious radicals, but it is fair to ask why totalitarian countries like Russia or China would be constrained. They can control everything their people can or can't see, and so they won't face protests in the streets if they commit genocide (or in the case of China, IS committing genocide).

So far, what's working to keep Russia from using nukes or chemical weapons in Ukraine is diplomatic and economic pressure, plus the threat of NATO going on a war footing and probably outrunning Russian military production and demographics. I think it's fair to say Russia is being punished beyond their worst expectations by a united front of many more countries than initially expected. They didn't foresee the unity and expansion of NATO, or the willingness of Europeans to suffer for the sake of getting off Russian natural gas. Russian allies in Belarus, Hungary, and Moldova have been sidelined after watching the shift in public opinion.   

China meanwhile, would face a Western boycott, asset seizures, and a Western military buildup if they start bombing civilians in Taiwan or ethnically cleansing the Philippines. That might not be enough, because foreign influence only goes so far. China lacks the vulnerabilities of Russia and knows the US is utterly dependent upon them to finance our budget deficits and keep our goods inflation low.

The past couple of years have seen Western countries realize their incentives for rules-bound warfare are weaker than initially expected, and dictatorships like Russia can potentially ignore such structures. Yet, Western moral outrage at Russian aggression has united the squabbling Europeans and created a bipartisan majority in the U.S, while on the flip-side, moral uncertainty is hurting the morale of Russian soldiers, led to draft dodging, and probably harmed the unity of the Russian people (also see the rise of Russian partisan units attacking Russian villages). Being the "good guys" has strategic value because it can lead to national and international unity in and among free societies.

The West, and Israel, might be unwise to trade this massive advantage for some sort of short-sighted tactical parity with terrorists and dictators. To the extent the U.S. ignored its own rules in "the war on terror", with torture sites, detention without trial, strikes and recriminations on civilians, etc. it lost internal support and eventually lost "the war on terror".

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #221 on: November 02, 2023, 07:59:56 AM »
I do wrestle with the killing of "innocent civilians". Is the collective citizenry really innocent if they allow themselves to be run by Jihadists and allow rocket launches from their backyards? Boy, the German citizenry really paid for their collective poor choices. It starts slow and then gets out of control. Over and over, all throughout history authoritarian leadership has taken a terrible toll on their citizens.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #222 on: November 02, 2023, 08:35:33 AM »
I do wrestle with the killing of "innocent civilians". Is the collective citizenry really innocent if they allow themselves to be run by Jihadists and allow rocket launches from their backyards? Boy, the German citizenry really paid for their collective poor choices. It starts slow and then gets out of control. Over and over, all throughout history authoritarian leadership has taken a terrible toll on their citizens.

Given that this is something they have allowed, what sort of punishment do you believe the average American deserves for the many times that the US has put brutal authoritarian regimes in power, supported those committing mass murders, or the continued operation of extra-judicial torture facilities populated with people kidnapped from countries around the world?

dividendman

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #223 on: November 02, 2023, 08:38:38 AM »
I do wrestle with the killing of "innocent civilians". Is the collective citizenry really innocent if they allow themselves to be run by Jihadists and allow rocket launches from their backyards? Boy, the German citizenry really paid for their collective poor choices. It starts slow and then gets out of control. Over and over, all throughout history authoritarian leadership has taken a terrible toll on their citizens.

Given that this is something they have allowed, what sort of punishment do you believe the average American deserves for the many times that the US has put brutal authoritarian regimes in power, supported those committing mass murders, or the continued operation of extra-judicial torture facilities populated with people kidnapped from countries around the world?

Exactly, by the logic of blue_green_sparks, the victims of 9/11 aren't so innocent since the US has been bombing the middle east and supporting authoritarian regimes there for decades.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #224 on: November 02, 2023, 09:01:55 AM »
I do wrestle with the killing of "innocent civilians". Is the collective citizenry really innocent if they allow themselves to be run by Jihadists and allow rocket launches from their backyards? Boy, the German citizenry really paid for their collective poor choices. It starts slow and then gets out of control. Over and over, all throughout history authoritarian leadership has taken a terrible toll on their citizens.

Given that this is something they have allowed, what sort of punishment do you believe the average American deserves for the many times that the US has put brutal authoritarian regimes in power, supported those committing mass murders, or the continued operation of extra-judicial torture facilities populated with people kidnapped from countries around the world?

Exactly, by the logic of blue_green_sparks, the victims of 9/11 aren't so innocent since the US has been bombing the middle east and supporting authoritarian regimes there for decades.
Yes, absolutely the US citizenry paid a price for a series very poor foreign policy actions and decisions. We elected a dimwit who believed he was also taking cues a celestial dictator, in my opinion. Unfortunately, certain individuals always pay a higher price than the average. The hope is that citizens can learn from their leaders' mistakes and avoid those types of leaders in the future. So short answer is we are indeed responsible as a collective for the actions and consequences of the ones we allow to lead us. Any other conclusion is iresponsible. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #225 on: November 02, 2023, 09:03:26 AM »
In Israel/Hamas war news, Israel has repeatedly bombed Jabalia refugee camp over the past two days.  Some of the terrorists targeted by the Israelis in or near their homes:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-hamas-war-1.7014786


https://www.npr.org/2023/10/31/1209646548/israel-military-central-gaza-fighting-hamas


The UN has again mentioned Israeli war crimes:
“Given the high number of civilian casualties [and] the scale of destruction following Israeli air strikes on Jabalia refugee camp, we have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes.” - Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights


Seems likely that things will only continue to worsen as Israel's ground invasion of Gaza continues.

bacchi

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #226 on: November 02, 2023, 09:16:36 AM »
Yes, absolutely the US citizenry paid a price for a series very poor foreign policy actions and decisions. We elected a dimwit who believed he was also taking cues a celestial dictator, in my opinion. Unfortunately, certain individuals always pay a higher price than the average. The hope is that citizens can learn from their leaders' mistakes and avoid those types of leaders in the future. So short answer is we are indeed responsible as a collective for the actions and consequences of the ones we allow to lead us. Any other conclusion is iresponsible.

Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006.

Hamas is an an Iranian funded, well-armed, ~20k+ strong gang of fanatical terrorists. The IDF and Mossad haven't been able to take them out. Why would you expect impoverished, unarmed, civilians to do so?

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #227 on: November 02, 2023, 09:28:56 AM »
In Israel/Hamas war news, Israel has repeatedly bombed Jabalia refugee camp over the past two days.  Some of the terrorists targeted by the Israelis in or near their homes:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-hamas-war-1.7014786


https://www.npr.org/2023/10/31/1209646548/israel-military-central-gaza-fighting-hamas


The UN has again mentioned Israeli war crimes:
“Given the high number of civilian casualties [and] the scale of destruction following Israeli air strikes on Jabalia refugee camp, we have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes.” - Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights


Seems likely that things will only continue to worsen as Israel's ground invasion of Gaza continues.


In the end I suspect it things end badly for Israel.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #228 on: November 02, 2023, 09:37:04 AM »
I do wrestle with the killing of "innocent civilians". Is the collective citizenry really innocent if they allow themselves to be run by Jihadists and allow rocket launches from their backyards? Boy, the German citizenry really paid for their collective poor choices. It starts slow and then gets out of control. Over and over, all throughout history authoritarian leadership has taken a terrible toll on their citizens.

Given that this is something they have allowed, what sort of punishment do you believe the average American deserves for the many times that the US has put brutal authoritarian regimes in power, supported those committing mass murders, or the continued operation of extra-judicial torture facilities populated with people kidnapped from countries around the world?

Exactly, by the logic of blue_green_sparks, the victims of 9/11 aren't so innocent since the US has been bombing the middle east and supporting authoritarian regimes there for decades.
Either that or you could say no citizen population is ever collectively responsible for the actions of their government.

In Gaza, Hamas killed anyone who opposed them, evoking the political violence that brought the Nazis to power. The people dying in Gaza today would have already died if they fought Hamas. There is no reliable way to tell how much popular support Hamas has, because they crush any dissent.

The Nazi party won the chancellorship after obtaining only 33.1% of the 1932 vote. That was the last free and fair vote the population had a chance to cast before absolute horror erupted. So two-thirds of voters, and perhaps 80% of the population in general when you include kids and non-voters, were innocent of voting for the Nazis. By any math, millions of Germans died because of the choices made by a small minority of voters. Millions more civilians in other countries died because of the choices made by a minority of voters in Germany.

This is where the "laws of war" talk came from, emerging out of the horrors of WW1 and WW2 when civilians who had no part in government decisions were widely massacred or conscripted to die fighting each other.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #229 on: November 02, 2023, 09:46:16 AM »
Yes, absolutely the US citizenry paid a price for a series very poor foreign policy actions and decisions. We elected a dimwit who believed he was also taking cues a celestial dictator, in my opinion. Unfortunately, certain individuals always pay a higher price than the average. The hope is that citizens can learn from their leaders' mistakes and avoid those types of leaders in the future. So short answer is we are indeed responsible as a collective for the actions and consequences of the ones we allow to lead us. Any other conclusion is iresponsible.

Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006.

Hamas is an an Iranian funded, well-armed, ~20k+ strong gang of fanatical terrorists. The IDF and Mossad haven't been able to take them out. Why would you expect impoverished, unarmed, civilians to do so?
Revolutions are not easy but 2M people should be able to eradicate 20K terrorists if they had the will. And they could get support.  If the Palestinians adopted peaceful resistance to inequality or accept a two-state solution, I believe their lives would improve greatly. The insistence on the destruction of Israel is simply not a working agenda. Who thinks Israel is going away?

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #230 on: November 02, 2023, 10:02:51 AM »
Yes, absolutely the US citizenry paid a price for a series very poor foreign policy actions and decisions. We elected a dimwit who believed he was also taking cues a celestial dictator, in my opinion. Unfortunately, certain individuals always pay a higher price than the average. The hope is that citizens can learn from their leaders' mistakes and avoid those types of leaders in the future. So short answer is we are indeed responsible as a collective for the actions and consequences of the ones we allow to lead us. Any other conclusion is iresponsible.

Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006.

Hamas is an an Iranian funded, well-armed, ~20k+ strong gang of fanatical terrorists. The IDF and Mossad haven't been able to take them out. Why would you expect impoverished, unarmed, civilians to do so?
Revolutions are not easy but 2M people should be able to eradicate 20K terrorists if they had the will. And they could get support.  If the Palestinians adopted peaceful resistance to inequality or accept a two-state solution, I believe their lives would improve greatly. The insistence on the destruction of Israel is simply not a working agenda. Who thinks Israel is going away?

The average Palestinian doesn't have much money.  They also don't have weapons.  Or the ability to leave Palestine to get money or weapons.  Is your plan that the two million people (more than half of whom are children) charge at Hamas until they bury them in their bodies?

Netanyahu was directly responsible for transferring Qatari funds to Hamas as part of his plan to prevent any chance of a two state solution from happening.  https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082  Hamas used this money to get weapons to oppress Palestinians and later to attack Israel.  Why do the Palestinian people have to shoulder the burden of the actions of Israel's government?

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #231 on: November 02, 2023, 10:41:13 AM »
Yes, absolutely the US citizenry paid a price for a series very poor foreign policy actions and decisions. We elected a dimwit who believed he was also taking cues a celestial dictator, in my opinion. Unfortunately, certain individuals always pay a higher price than the average. The hope is that citizens can learn from their leaders' mistakes and avoid those types of leaders in the future. So short answer is we are indeed responsible as a collective for the actions and consequences of the ones we allow to lead us. Any other conclusion is iresponsible.

Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006.

Hamas is an an Iranian funded, well-armed, ~20k+ strong gang of fanatical terrorists. The IDF and Mossad haven't been able to take them out. Why would you expect impoverished, unarmed, civilians to do so?
Revolutions are not easy but 2M people should be able to eradicate 20K terrorists if they had the will. And they could get support.  If the Palestinians adopted peaceful resistance to inequality or accept a two-state solution, I believe their lives would improve greatly. The insistence on the destruction of Israel is simply not a working agenda. Who thinks Israel is going away?

How is that gonna happen, concretely? Is step one that Hamas do them a solid and all assemble in one place?

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #232 on: November 02, 2023, 11:00:35 AM »
Who thinks Israel is going away?

Thinks? No. But I have been hopeful for several decades that it goes away. It’s a negative mark on the world.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #233 on: November 02, 2023, 11:16:47 AM »
Yes, absolutely the US citizenry paid a price for a series very poor foreign policy actions and decisions. We elected a dimwit who believed he was also taking cues a celestial dictator, in my opinion. Unfortunately, certain individuals always pay a higher price than the average. The hope is that citizens can learn from their leaders' mistakes and avoid those types of leaders in the future. So short answer is we are indeed responsible as a collective for the actions and consequences of the ones we allow to lead us. Any other conclusion is iresponsible.

Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006.

Hamas is an an Iranian funded, well-armed, ~20k+ strong gang of fanatical terrorists. The IDF and Mossad haven't been able to take them out. Why would you expect impoverished, unarmed, civilians to do so?
Revolutions are not easy but 2M people should be able to eradicate 20K terrorists if they had the will. And they could get support.  If the Palestinians adopted peaceful resistance to inequality or accept a two-state solution, I believe their lives would improve greatly. The insistence on the destruction of Israel is simply not a working agenda. Who thinks Israel is going away?

How is that gonna happen, concretely? Is step one that Hamas do them a solid and all assemble in one place?
No, but their leaders do. What? history has no examples of people overthrowing tyrants? Hamas is paying people off with their blood money.

Three times the Arabs were offered a serious two state solution:
1936- Peel Commission
1947 - UN partition resolution (resolution 181)
2000 - Camp David. Sadat paid for that with his life. Sadat had become the personification of evil, because he had made peace with Israel.

Each time Arabs couldn't rein-in the violence. What are the other possible solutions?

^Israel is to let Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran free to do as they will in the region and allow Hamas to get stronger and stronger in their stated charter of Israeli destruction?

^Israel should just pack up and just leave the region to the Islamic Jihadists and embark on yet another Jewish diaspora and disperse all over the globe?

I think a moderate Arab/Israeli leadership coalition is still the only realistic solution. Netanyahu will be gone, and the Arabs can help decide his replacement by their own actions. Islam has the benefit of being the last big Abrahamic religion and their scriptures have a boatload of hate against Jews, Christians and infidels. I can post the verses if interested. Moderate Arabs would need to put those verses to bed if it is truly a religion of peace.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #234 on: November 02, 2023, 12:12:03 PM »
Quote
Israel is to let Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran free to do as they will in the region and allow Hamas to get stronger and stronger in their stated charter of Israeli destruction?

Call me crazy, but I think Israel should not help funnel money to Hamas if they don't want the group to get stronger and stronger.


Quote
Israel should just pack up and just leave the region to the Islamic Jihadists and embark on yet another Jewish diaspora and disperse all over the globe?

I don't support the solution you mention here . . . but effectively this appears to be arguing that it would be unfair to force Israelis out of the land that they have forced the Palestinian people from.  Not sure I can follow the logic.


Quote
Islam has the benefit of being the last big Abrahamic religion and their scriptures have a boatload of hate against Jews, Christians and infidels. I can post the verses if interested. Moderate Arabs would need to put those verses to bed if it is truly a religion of peace.

Not sure what you mean by 'put those verses to bed' exactly.  Are you talking about removing them from the Quran, having Muslims publicly declare them wrong, what?

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #235 on: November 02, 2023, 12:17:31 PM »
The insistence on the destruction of Israel is simply not a working agenda.

We're agreed that Hamas wants Israel gone. Has anyone stated otherwise in this thread?

I think a moderate Arab/Israeli leadership coalition is still the only realistic solution. Netanyahu will be gone, and the Arabs can help decide his replacement by their own actions.

That's already been stated multiple times in this thread. Has anyone in this thread argued for a more hardline, right-wing, Palestinian or Israeli leadership?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 12:21:57 PM by bacchi »

SotI

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #236 on: November 02, 2023, 01:14:16 PM »
Quote from: GuitarStv link=topic=132594.msg3195714#msg3195714 da
  Hamas used this money to get weapons to oppress Palestinians and later to attack Israel.  Why do the Palestinian people have to shoulder the burden of the actions of Israel's government?
As someone above already raised a comparison to the Germans under Nazi rule: historically, Germans have been considered complicit in their " Nazi elites" war crimes; why apply a different view on Palestinians?

Mind you, I fully agree that the Gaza civilians are unfortunate victims of circumstance. But with all the global protest and antisemits attacks in Western cities, I am not all convinces that Hamas is a repressive gang that no one dares to stand up against. They got way too much support Around the world, this speaka for wider common ideology.

So, nailing my colours to the mast: I am fully with Israel on this one. They need to to take out Hamas.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #237 on: November 02, 2023, 01:44:34 PM »
Quote from: GuitarStv link=topic=132594.msg3195714#msg3195714 da
  Hamas used this money to get weapons to oppress Palestinians and later to attack Israel.  Why do the Palestinian people have to shoulder the burden of the actions of Israel's government?
As someone above already raised a comparison to the Germans under Nazi rule: historically, Germans have been considered complicit in their " Nazi elites" war crimes; why apply a different view on Palestinians?

Mind you, I fully agree that the Gaza civilians are unfortunate victims of circumstance. But with all the global protest and antisemits attacks in Western cities, I am not all convinces that Hamas is a repressive gang that no one dares to stand up against. They got way too much support Around the world, this speaka for wider common ideology.

I agree that it is difficult to gauge the support for Hamas inside of Gaza, but to characterize the global protests against the actions of the Israeli government as anti-Semitic or as in support of Hamas is... not great.

Quote
So, nailing my colours to the mast: I am fully with Israel on this one. They need to to take out Hamas.

The attempt to take out Hamas the way the Israeli government is doing it is not possible, short of genocide. And even if they could instantly and with perfect precision take out the 20k Hamas fighters, they still maintain near perfect conditions for the creation of violent extremists.

The most effective way that Israel can protect itself from violence from Gaza would be what GuitarStv mentioned upthread:
Quote
A good first step would be withholding any/all military aid to Israel until the Israelis choose to fix some of their human rights abuses.

- Full voting rights in Israeli elections for all Palestinians ruled by Israel (so all Palestinians)
- An end to separate legal treatment for Palestinians when compared to Israeli citizens in the Israeli legal system
- A return of the thousands of Palestinians currently detained without charges or hope of due process in Israeli prisons
- A permanent end to all Israeli government support of Hamas (and laws to prevent support of other terror groups in the future)
- An end to all Israeli 'settlements' illegal under international law, jail time for all Israelis found squatting on such lands, and return of all stolen land to Palestinian landowners

This would be a reasonable starting place, and would cover many of the worst complaints that Palestinians have regarding the apartheid they're living under.

A thriving and prosperous middle class in Gaza would do more to protect Israel than dropping a thousand bombs.

Just Joe

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #238 on: November 02, 2023, 01:53:07 PM »
A thriving and prosperous middle class in Gaza would do more to protect Israel than dropping a thousand bombs.

Agreed.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #239 on: November 02, 2023, 01:58:56 PM »

Netanyahu was directly responsible for transferring Qatari funds to Hamas as part of his plan to prevent any chance of a two state solution from happening.  https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082  Hamas used this money to get weapons to oppress Palestinians and later to attack Israel.  Why do the Palestinian people have to shoulder the burden of the actions of Israel's government?


As someone above already raised a comparison to the Germans under Nazi rule: historically, Germans have been considered complicit in their " Nazi elites" war crimes; why apply a different view on Palestinians?

Mind you, I fully agree that the Gaza civilians are unfortunate victims of circumstance. But with all the global protest and antisemits attacks in Western cities, I am not all convinces that Hamas is a repressive gang that no one dares to stand up against. They got way too much support Around the world, this speaka for wider common ideology.

So, nailing my colours to the mast: I am fully with Israel on this one. They need to to take out Hamas.

I guess I don't see why Palestinian civilians are responsible for the actions of a government they didn't elect who has been funded with Israel's help with the explicit goal of preventing moderates in Palestine from getting a voice.

It would be great if Israel could wipe out Hamas though.  I'm not as on-board with Israel committing war crimes in the attempt as you appear to be.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #240 on: November 02, 2023, 02:17:26 PM »
Quote from: GuitarStv link=topic=132594.msg3195714#msg3195714 da
  Hamas used this money to get weapons to oppress Palestinians and later to attack Israel.  Why do the Palestinian people have to shoulder the burden of the actions of Israel's government?
As someone above already raised a comparison to the Germans under Nazi rule: historically, Germans have been considered complicit in their " Nazi elites" war crimes; why apply a different view on Palestinians?

Because the Germans were able to vote in a democratic election and they chose a NSDAP government?

Over half of Palestinians were children in 2006. They couldn't vote.

Quote
Mind you, I fully agree that the Gaza civilians are unfortunate victims of circumstance. But with all the global protest and antisemits attacks in Western cities, I am not all convinces that Hamas is a repressive gang that no one dares to stand up against. They got way too much support Around the world, this speaka for wider common ideology.

Why don't impoverished North Koreans stand up against their leaders? Why don't people in US slums take out the gangs that are accidentally killing their children? Why didn't Africans take out the apartheid government in South Africa?

Wasn't the point made that in Gaza, Hamas was voted in 2006? You could arguably say Germans only democratically voted Hitler in once (and not in majority) in 1933 after which the Enabling Act basically constituted a de facto dictatorship. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933


As for the second point: so, the Hamas supporters in London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels who attack Jewish places are protesting b/c they are "afraid" of Hamas Gaza rule? I think you are missing the big picture: protesters have publicly taken Pro-Hamas stances in these rallies.

As to the other posters:The increase of attacks in *European) Jewish schools, buildings, institution is officially increasing substantially. How are European Jews party and how can you deny the antisemitic undercurrent? 

And ofc civilians in a war zone are fucked - Gaza civilians as much as Ukrainians, Kurdes, Armenians, or whoever stands between warring tribes. And I don't justify war crimes, as is suggested here. No idea where you were infering this from.  But that's what Hamas is banking on by using schols and hospitals for shields.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #241 on: November 02, 2023, 02:24:39 PM »
Quote
Mind you, I fully agree that the Gaza civilians are unfortunate victims of circumstance. But with all the global protest and antisemits attacks in Western cities, I am not all convinces that Hamas is a repressive gang that no one dares to stand up against. They got way too much support Around the world, this speaka for wider common ideology.

Why don't impoverished North Koreans stand up against their leaders? Why don't people in US slums take out the gangs that are accidentally killing their children? Why didn't Africans take out the apartheid government in South Africa?


As for the second point: so, the Hamas supporters in London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels who attack Jewish places are protesting b/c they are "afraid" of Hamas Gaza rule? I think you are missing the big picture: protesters have publicly taken Pro-Hamas stances in these rallies.

What?

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #242 on: November 02, 2023, 02:30:54 PM »
Quote
Mind you, I fully agree that the Gaza civilians are unfortunate victims of circumstance. But with all the global protest and antisemits attacks in Western cities, I am not all convinces that Hamas is a repressive gang that no one dares to stand up against. They got way too much support Around the world, this speaka for wider common ideology.

Why don't impoverished North Koreans stand up against their leaders? Why don't people in US slums take out the gangs that are accidentally killing their children? Why didn't Africans take out the apartheid government in South Africa?


As for the second point: so, the Hamas supporters in London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels who attack Jewish places are protesting b/c they are "afraid" of Hamas Gaza rule? I think you are missing the big picture: protesters have publicly taken Pro-Hamas stances in these rallies.

What?

Yeah, I also am confused.  Hamas != Palestinians.

I've seen plenty of pro-Palestinian rallies.  I haven't seen any pro-Hamas ones.  There's pretty unanimous denunciation of their actions.

Might also be worth pointing out that (at least here in Canada, and I suspect elsewhere in the world  EDIT - yep, looks like it's going on all over) there have been random attacks on Jewish people and Palestinian people since this conflict started.  Both are reprehensible acts.  You seem to be aware of only one side of this violence though:

https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/minneapolis-pro-palestinian-rally-vehicle-drives-through-crowd/
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/wayne-county/2023/10/12/dearborn-police-arrest-man-they-say-threatened-palestinians-on-social-media/71161180007/
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/lombard-man-charged-with-hate-crime-after-allegedly-verbally-abusing-and-threatening-to-shoot-2-muslim-men/3255632/
https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/colorado-palestinian-family-experiencing-threats-home-business-wake-recent-violence-israel-gaza-strip/
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 02:44:17 PM by GuitarStv »

SotI

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #243 on: November 02, 2023, 03:17:44 PM »
Quote
Mind you, I fully agree that the Gaza civilians are unfortunate victims of circumstance. But with all the global protest and antisemits attacks in Western cities, I am not all convinces that Hamas is a repressive gang that no one dares to stand up against. They got way too much support Around the world, this speaka for wider common ideology.

Why don't impoverished North Koreans stand up against their leaders? Why don't people in US slums take out the gangs that are accidentally killing their children? Why didn't Africans take out the apartheid government in South Africa?


As for the second point: so, the Hamas supporters in London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels who attack Jewish places are protesting b/c they are "afraid" of Hamas Gaza rule? I think you are missing the big picture: protesters have publicly taken Pro-Hamas stances in these rallies.

What?

Yeah, I also am confused.  Hamas != Palestinians.

I've seen plenty of pro-Palestinian rallies.  I haven't seen any pro-Hamas ones.  There's pretty unanimous denunciation of their actions.

Might also be worth pointing out that (at least here in Canada, and I suspect elsewhere in the world) there have been random attacks on Jewish people and Palestinian people since this conflict started.  Both are reprehensible acts.

Glad we agree that this is reprehensible. And I am not sure what are confused about?
Ofc Hamas != Palestinians.
I think I made it clear that I am talking about dealing with Hamas?
Or are you not aware that in quite some rallies Hamas is supported & celebrated, to the extent that European governments are cracking down on Hamas sympathizers, all of a sudden?

https://news.yahoo.com/pro-hamas-protests-european-politicians-080045010.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAA9Rutq6N5cmvqFjHHnf51XtwX_XosWneLUexcGTrJJCGZn8MsEZ-Upr4OZB6bwS72q6chYsibDvsOun9fazqSQSo4SYPnkRSrC5YGEK51Tn4WYDuXnYmVqF_CK-TJhWs1K-ST373uM6_rLqwNyhJFMPLs6NPQjFIlhUmZoChiG9

https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/14/the-situation-is-tense-rise-in-anti-semitic-incidents-worries-jewish-community-in-europe

https://www.voanews.com/a/antisemitism-surges-around-world-as-israel-hamas-clash/7306956.html

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pro-hamas-sentiment-shocks-european-jews-rekindling-fears-about-their-future/

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #244 on: November 02, 2023, 03:41:43 PM »
I find the global outlook on this confusing.

Hamas is the government of Gaza strip, correct?   I know they're not elected and that they violate all sorts of human rights standards, but they're still the government.

Hamas ordered an attack on Israel, which was carried out, killing hundreds of Israeli civilians.

Israel responded by declaring war and attacking Gaza.

So shouldn't the world be calling on Hamas to surrender, instead of asking Israel for a ceasefire?

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #245 on: November 02, 2023, 03:47:02 PM »
I find the global outlook on this confusing.

Hamas is the government of Gaza strip, correct?   I know they're not elected and that they violate all sorts of human rights standards, but they're still the government.

Hamas ordered an attack on Israel, which was carried out, killing hundreds of Israeli civilians.

Israel responded by declaring war and attacking Gaza.

So shouldn't the world be calling on Hamas to surrender, instead of asking Israel for a ceasefire?

I think so. But I also think that the world has dismissed Hamas as a rational state actor. They are a fanatical group that won't surrender. It's again more akin to Nazis while Hitler was alive... you can ask them to surrender... but they ain't gonna.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #246 on: November 02, 2023, 03:54:06 PM »
Who thinks Israel is going away?

Thinks? No. But I have been hopeful for several decades that it goes away. It’s a negative mark on the world.

I'd appreciate if you could elaborate a bit on this, particularly on the specifics of how to make Israel go away and, of course, what you believe what makes Israel a negative mark on the world.

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #247 on: November 02, 2023, 04:59:50 PM »
Ofc Hamas != Palestinians.
I think I made it clear that I am talking about dealing with Hamas?
Or are you not aware that in quite some rallies Hamas is supported & celebrated, to the extent that European governments are cracking down on Hamas sympathizers, all of a sudden?


And you equate pro-Hamas supporters in London (and at Harvard, too, I assume) with Palestinian civilians living in Gaza or West Bank?

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #248 on: November 02, 2023, 05:08:51 PM »
I find the global outlook on this confusing.

Hamas is the government of Gaza strip, correct?   I know they're not elected and that they violate all sorts of human rights standards, but they're still the government.

Hamas ordered an attack on Israel, which was carried out, killing hundreds of Israeli civilians.

Israel responded by declaring war and attacking Gaza.

So shouldn't the world be calling on Hamas to surrender, instead of asking Israel for a ceasefire?

I think so. But I also think that the world has dismissed Hamas as a rational state actor. They are a fanatical group that won't surrender. It's again more akin to Nazis while Hitler was alive... you can ask them to surrender... but they ain't gonna.
Geopolitical borders are arbitrary and will never have consensus.  I think the Nazi analogy is apt in terms of the refusal to surrender.  I also think about Native Americans being forced from their lands is relevant.  Would you have any Native Americans that fought back for retribution and revenge after being forcibly removed from their homeland?  Absolutely.  Were they correct in slaughtering and kidnapping some of the people that belonged to the larger group that had taken over their land?  It's pretty complicated but there is some validity to their actions even if everyone agrees that murder and mistreatment of civilians is wrong.  Even today in Mexico, Canada, and the US - it's pretty clear most citizens of these countries accept there were atrocities committed by largely Europeans against indigenous peoples yet today that doesn't mean a hill of beans in terms of national sovereignty.  There is no multi-state solution - all the indigenous peoples and lands are simply part of the larger country that took over.

At some point you just accept the bigger military diplomacy and move on/accept defeat.  The Palestinians are not to that point yet it seems and are clamoring for pre-1967 or pre-1948 (or prior to British conquest, you can go back forever) geopolitical lines and going about it in shocking ways.  Defining sovereignty as "correct" is hard.  Throw in some religion that people will die for, plenty of racism, local politics, and global politics and you have a situation that will probably never be resolved save for genocide of the economically/militarily weaker side, a supervolcano catastrophe, nuclear annihilation, or an asteroid that ends the Holocene.

Reminder that 138 of the 193 UN members recognize Palestine as a country and it's not random which ones do not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine#/media/File:Palestine_recognition_only.svg

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Hamas
« Reply #249 on: November 02, 2023, 08:53:58 PM »
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Mind you, I fully agree that the Gaza civilians are unfortunate victims of circumstance. But with all the global protest and antisemits attacks in Western cities, I am not all convinces that Hamas is a repressive gang that no one dares to stand up against. They got way too much support Around the world, this speaka for wider common ideology.

Why don't impoverished North Koreans stand up against their leaders? Why don't people in US slums take out the gangs that are accidentally killing their children? Why didn't Africans take out the apartheid government in South Africa?


As for the second point: so, the Hamas supporters in London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels who attack Jewish places are protesting b/c they are "afraid" of Hamas Gaza rule? I think you are missing the big picture: protesters have publicly taken Pro-Hamas stances in these rallies.

What?

Yeah, I also am confused.  Hamas != Palestinians.

I've seen plenty of pro-Palestinian rallies.  I haven't seen any pro-Hamas ones.  There's pretty unanimous denunciation of their actions.

Might also be worth pointing out that (at least here in Canada, and I suspect elsewhere in the world) there have been random attacks on Jewish people and Palestinian people since this conflict started.  Both are reprehensible acts.

Glad we agree that this is reprehensible. And I am not sure what are confused about?
Ofc Hamas != Palestinians.
I think I made it clear that I am talking about dealing with Hamas?
Or are you not aware that in quite some rallies Hamas is supported & celebrated, to the extent that European governments are cracking down on Hamas sympathizers, all of a sudden?

https://news.yahoo.com/pro-hamas-protests-european-politicians-080045010.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAA9Rutq6N5cmvqFjHHnf51XtwX_XosWneLUexcGTrJJCGZn8MsEZ-Upr4OZB6bwS72q6chYsibDvsOun9fazqSQSo4SYPnkRSrC5YGEK51Tn4WYDuXnYmVqF_CK-TJhWs1K-ST373uM6_rLqwNyhJFMPLs6NPQjFIlhUmZoChiG9

https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/14/the-situation-is-tense-rise-in-anti-semitic-incidents-worries-jewish-community-in-europe

https://www.voanews.com/a/antisemitism-surges-around-world-as-israel-hamas-clash/7306956.html

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pro-hamas-sentiment-shocks-european-jews-rekindling-fears-about-their-future/

The first link you provided appears to equate Palestinians with Hamas . . . given that they have identified pro-Palestinian rallies as 'pro-Hamas' rallies.  The main claim that people are supporting Hamas seems to be use of the phrase ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’ which some people have interpreted as calling for violence against Israel but has more complex roots - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean.

The second link has nothing to do with rallies.

The third link outlines how hate driven violence against both Palestinians and Jews in the US has seen a significant uptick since the latest conflict.  It mentions that the American Jewish Community has identified multiple pro-Hamas rallies . . . but if you go to the AJC website to check (https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/From-the-River-to-the-Sea) it seems that they interpret anyone saying 'From the river to the sea' as being support of Hamas.

The final link explicitly mentions rallies once with the following text using only weasel words to insinuate that pro-Palestinian rallies are pro-Hamas:
Quote
hundreds of thousands of protesters rally at demonstrations that are billed as expressions of support of Palestinian civilians, but that many, both Jewish and non-Jewish, perceive as shows of Jew-hatred and solidarity with Hamas despite its recent displays of extreme barbarism against Israelis.

Unless there are other incidents that you've not found, the 'pro-Hamas rally' argument that you're making seems to rest on simply using the 'From the river to the sea' phrase in pro-Palestinian rallies.  You yourself have agreed that Palestinians != Hamas so I'm surprised that you agree with news articles arguing otherwise.