Author Topic: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?  (Read 13139 times)

Log

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2025, 01:14:27 PM »
In political science, they would say democracy is not a binary characteristic. A democratic government can become less democratic, and still be a democracy. While the broad historical trend in the US has been towards more democracy, there have absolutely been periods of less democracy, and not all of them have been bad. FDR's presidency was certainly a less democratic era, and he accomplished great things.

It makes perfect sense to be pleased with less democracy when it's "our guys" in charge, and displeased with less democracy when it's "the other side," but it's better for the long term health of the union to acknowledge that these things come and go. Nihilistic doomerism is what justifies escalating retaliations and even political violence, which are really the scenarios we want to avoid here.

I think it's fair to say the Democrats veered far away from public opinion in the last 10 years or so in various ways, and it's only the natural outcome of democracy that they would get electorally punished for that. Losses are how democracy disciplines parties to get back in touch with what the public wants. Right now, the public is upset at both parties, so we're going to ping-pong back and forth until one of the parties de-polarizes and actually presents a broadly popular candidate/message again.

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2025, 01:42:48 PM »
You can see it in what people call Elon Musk.  Most people say fascist or nazi.  But in truth he's closer to a techno anarchist.  That doesn't fit neatly in to the pre-existing roles defined by the 2 parties.
Most Anarchists would be angry if you tell them that.
He is a techno libertarian with racist or very classicist views. (It's often hard to differentiate the 2.) That is a near guarantee to get into Nazism/Fascism. If you think  99% of people are idiots and do not deserve anything...

Quote
But it is certainly not 'the end of democracy'. 
When, in your eyes, is the "end of democracy"? When they completely ignore all judges (they don't like) or replace them, as they have said they will? When they have kicked out all people who not swear allegiance to Mighty Leader Trump out of government, as they are doing right now? When they allow even less people to vote that have a different opinion, or when they fake elections? Or when the tanks roll?

When is for you the point that democracy ended?

You think this is the end of democracy in America, and I do not.  In 4 year's we'll know for sure.  Care to make a bet?

Trump, like it or not, was democratically elected.  Calling for his removal would do more to break democracy than anything Trump can do, IMO.

It was a question that Lennstar asked. (bolded)

For you, when would you consider that US democracy has ended? We know that it's not now but when? As Lennstar wrote, would you consider democracy has ended when court rulings are routinely ignored? When US citizens are detained for political views? Where's the line in the sand?

It's something that everyone should ask themselves.


For me it's the transfer of power.  If/when we can't get the old people out and the new people in, then democracy has broken.

For me it will be if the state Supreme Court let's this guy throw out 65000 ballots after the election he lost.  Multiple judges and the election board have told him no but he keeps appealing it and the final decision goes to the court where the seat is contested and which blocked certification of the election until after the appeals are all done.

https://www.wunc.org/politics/2025-02-07/nc-supreme-court-race-riggs-griffin-judge-ruling
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 01:44:19 PM by Morning Glory »

Tyson

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2025, 02:08:11 PM »
You can see it in what people call Elon Musk.  Most people say fascist or nazi.  But in truth he's closer to a techno anarchist.  That doesn't fit neatly in to the pre-existing roles defined by the 2 parties.
Most Anarchists would be angry if you tell them that.
He is a techno libertarian with racist or very classicist views. (It's often hard to differentiate the 2.) That is a near guarantee to get into Nazism/Fascism. If you think  99% of people are idiots and do not deserve anything...

Quote
But it is certainly not 'the end of democracy'. 
When, in your eyes, is the "end of democracy"? When they completely ignore all judges (they don't like) or replace them, as they have said they will? When they have kicked out all people who not swear allegiance to Mighty Leader Trump out of government, as they are doing right now? When they allow even less people to vote that have a different opinion, or when they fake elections? Or when the tanks roll?

When is for you the point that democracy ended?

You think this is the end of democracy in America, and I do not.  In 4 year's we'll know for sure.  Care to make a bet?

Trump, like it or not, was democratically elected.  Calling for his removal would do more to break democracy than anything Trump can do, IMO.

It was a question that Lennstar asked. (bolded)

For you, when would you consider that US democracy has ended? We know that it's not now but when? As Lennstar wrote, would you consider democracy has ended when court rulings are routinely ignored? When US citizens are detained for political views? Where's the line in the sand?

It's something that everyone should ask themselves.


For me it's the transfer of power.  If/when we can't get the old people out and the new people in, then democracy has broken.

For me it will be if the state Supreme Court let's this guy throw out 65000 ballots after the election he lost.  Multiple judges and the election board have told him no but he keeps appealing it and the final decision goes to the court where the seat is contested and which blocked certification of the election until after the appeals are all done.

https://www.wunc.org/politics/2025-02-07/nc-supreme-court-race-riggs-griffin-judge-ruling

Clearly we have different lines in the sand.  But let's go with your line, for sake of argument.  What exactly is broken in the system and how would you fix it?  To me it looks like the right has a majority in this country and they are exercising their power to enact changes they want.  You and I might not like those changes but it's all been done within the framework of democratic elections. 

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2025, 03:01:52 PM »
By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?


Morning Glory

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2025, 03:03:16 PM »
You can see it in what people call Elon Musk.  Most people say fascist or nazi.  But in truth he's closer to a techno anarchist.  That doesn't fit neatly in to the pre-existing roles defined by the 2 parties.
Most Anarchists would be angry if you tell them that.
He is a techno libertarian with racist or very classicist views. (It's often hard to differentiate the 2.) That is a near guarantee to get into Nazism/Fascism. If you think  99% of people are idiots and do not deserve anything...

Quote
But it is certainly not 'the end of democracy'. 
When, in your eyes, is the "end of democracy"? When they completely ignore all judges (they don't like) or replace them, as they have said they will? When they have kicked out all people who not swear allegiance to Mighty Leader Trump out of government, as they are doing right now? When they allow even less people to vote that have a different opinion, or when they fake elections? Or when the tanks roll?

When is for you the point that democracy ended?

You think this is the end of democracy in America, and I do not.  In 4 year's we'll know for sure.  Care to make a bet?

Trump, like it or not, was democratically elected.  Calling for his removal would do more to break democracy than anything Trump can do, IMO.

It was a question that Lennstar asked. (bolded)

For you, when would you consider that US democracy has ended? We know that it's not now but when? As Lennstar wrote, would you consider democracy has ended when court rulings are routinely ignored? When US citizens are detained for political views? Where's the line in the sand?

It's something that everyone should ask themselves.


For me it's the transfer of power.  If/when we can't get the old people out and the new people in, then democracy has broken.

For me it will be if the state Supreme Court let's this guy throw out 65000 ballots after the election he lost.  Multiple judges and the election board have told him no but he keeps appealing it and the final decision goes to the court where the seat is contested and which blocked certification of the election until after the appeals are all done.

https://www.wunc.org/politics/2025-02-07/nc-supreme-court-race-riggs-griffin-judge-ruling

Clearly we have different lines in the sand.  But let's go with your line, for sake of argument.  What exactly is broken in the system and how would you fix it?  To me it looks like the right has a majority in this country and they are exercising their power to enact changes they want.  You and I might not like those changes but it's all been done within the framework of democratic elections.

Er, did you not read the article? The right did not have a majority in this case even after two recounts and a lower court ruling.  They want to change who is eligible to vote after the election already happened.

Tyson

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2025, 04:37:03 PM »
Er, did you not read the article? The right did not have a majority in this case even after two recounts and a lower court ruling.  They want to change who is eligible to vote after the election already happened.

I did read it.  It's not even something happening at the federal level.  It's a state issue happening in NC.  Luckily here in the US we have 50 more or less independent states (with some federal oversight).  Which means that crap going on in NC has zero bearing on me as I live in CO.  This is hardly a threat to democracy.  It is not happening in 49 other states and also not happening at the federal level.  Meh. 

By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

Thank you for drawing the parallels.  I agree with this completely. 

Honestly I'm shocked at how much hand wringing and pearl clutching there is here on the MMM forum.  Maybe people need to use MMM's optimism gun a little more. 

A forum dedicated (at least in part) to being resourceful and resilient shouldn't go around screaming the sky is falling like a bunch of chicken littles.

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2025, 08:44:12 PM »
Er, did you not read the article? The right did not have a majority in this case even after two recounts and a lower court ruling.  They want to change who is eligible to vote after the election already happened.

I did read it.  It's not even something happening at the federal level.  It's a state issue happening in NC.  Luckily here in the US we have 50 more or less independent states (with some federal oversight).  Which means that crap going on in NC has zero bearing on me as I live in CO.  This is hardly a threat to democracy.  It is not happening in 49 other states and also not happening at the federal level.  Meh. 

By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

Thank you for drawing the parallels.  I agree with this completely. 

Honestly I'm shocked at how much hand wringing and pearl clutching there is here on the MMM forum.  Maybe people need to use MMM's optimism gun a little more. 

A forum dedicated (at least in part) to being resourceful and resilient shouldn't go around screaming the sky is falling like a bunch of chicken littles.
On the other hand, those chicken littles only have to be fully right once :-)  Eventially they will be, but at any particular time or event they are unlikely to be correct.

Heckler

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2025, 09:16:05 PM »
This craziness feels different than previous world events.  When SHOULD one pull out of the stock market? It feels like things could blow up really fast...
How confident are people here feeling about riding this wave specifically in terms of the stock market not crashing?
Pull out, right before you feel like you're going to.........oh wait......
snort
This only works if you're on The Top.
And only if it’s In.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2025, 10:12:35 PM »
Quote
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

I guess you hadn't heard, due to military and trade insecurity, they're considering re-joining. Brexit fixed nothing, immigration is up. Did the sky fall? No. Is Russia regularly threatening to nuke London? Yes.

LennStar

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2025, 11:12:35 PM »
By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?
Yeah, after decade. But we are not asking about a decade here (though some say Trumps action will cause another Great Depression).
If you look at Covid or the Russian attack (more in EU than USA), that was a nice drop. If you sold at the start of the news you might get in back again at -20% or -30%.
The thing is, while this will clearly hurt people, how much will it hurt international companies? I don't think e.g. Microsoft will feel much different until it really gets to be a Hitler II.

Quote
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?
Let's just say it happened more or less what the... less nationalist people expected: The "it will be the same, just that we can decide" was total BS.
Economy is more or less on the lower end of the long time trend, healthcare got even worse and so on. Of course that was not a world end event, and nobody predicted that. But as predicted, life got harder, with some parts of economy hit a lot harder than others.

Morning Glory

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #110 on: February 15, 2025, 05:31:39 AM »
Er, did you not read the article? The right did not have a majority in this case even after two recounts and a lower court ruling.  They want to change who is eligible to vote after the election already happened.

I did read it.  It's not even something happening at the federal level.  It's a state issue happening in NC.  Luckily here in the US we have 50 more or less independent states (with some federal oversight).  Which means that crap going on in NC has zero bearing on me as I live in CO.  This is hardly a threat to democracy.  It is not happening in 49 other states and also not happening at the federal level.  Meh. 

Honestly I'm shocked at how much hand wringing and pearl clutching there is here on the MMM forum.  Maybe people need to use MMM's optimism gun a little more. 

A forum dedicated (at least in part) to being resourceful and resilient shouldn't go around screaming the sky is falling like a bunch of chicken littles.
JFC that was a response to a question about what would make one think one was not living in a democracy, and there's no reason to think they won't try this tactic in other states if they succeed here.

I don't understand why youre singling me out here as a "chicken little" when I have said the market will be fine. I'm not trading in all my index funds for toilet paper or "clutching my pearls" (which is a sexist analogy by th way). I'm sure you'd be just as angry if one of the executive orders caused massive inconvenience or disruption to you or someone you care about, even if the sky isn't falling.

*"Hand wringing " is ablist. It refers to a stim that autistic people sometimes do to calm down. Most people don't know that though.

I am legitimately concerned and angry about my child potentially losing his right to an equal public education and am using my "resourcefulness" to make backup plans accordingly, which could mean moving back to a blue state where I have family and where they are willing to continue special education if the federal government no longer mandates it, or even to another country.  I'm in a coastal area with rapidly rising home insurance prices anyway so it probably wouldn't be such a bad idea given the potential loss of federal aid if there is a disaster.

Other people on the forum are worried for the safety of their transgender loved ones, or have friends or relatives who are undocumented,  or are being threatened with losing their jobs.  There are plenty of logical reasons to be worried.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2025, 05:50:35 AM by Morning Glory »

Morning Glory

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #111 on: February 15, 2025, 05:38:11 AM »
Quote
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

I guess you hadn't heard, due to military and trade insecurity, they're considering re-joining. Brexit fixed nothing, immigration is up. Did the sky fall? No. Is Russia regularly threatening to nuke London? Yes.

It was a giant pain in the ass for British citizens living in other countries in Europe.  My dad ended up going through the process to become a citizen where he lived since he already had been living and working there for several years and spoke the language well. He had to give up his British citizenship to do so.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2025, 05:40:41 AM by Morning Glory »

GuitarStv

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #112 on: February 15, 2025, 06:55:51 PM »
Quote
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

I guess you hadn't heard, due to military and trade insecurity, they're considering re-joining. Brexit fixed nothing, immigration is up. Did the sky fall? No. Is Russia regularly threatening to nuke London? Yes.

It was a giant pain in the ass for British citizens living in other countries in Europe.  My dad ended up going through the process to become a citizen where he lived since he already had been living and working there for several years and spoke the language well. He had to give up his British citizenship to do so.

Economically, there's no question at all that Brexit seriously hurt the UK and the average Brit.

https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit

Cassie

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #113 on: February 15, 2025, 08:53:04 PM »
Rob Bob, Trump has been doing many things that are illegal and not within his authority. Vance is suggesting that they just ignore the courts because there’s no police force to back up the court orders. Musk and his teen squad have downloaded all of our information including any bank accounts that have had deposits from the federal government such as tax returns, etc.

They are putting forward a bill that says women need the same name as their birth certificate to vote. 69% of women can’t meet that requirement. With so many federal workers being fired the government won’t be able to function properly. Trump only wants people in government who are loyal to him. Federal workers take an oath to be loyal to the Constitution. They are going to crash the economy and people will lose their homes. They are trying to suppress free speech and we will be in a dictatorship.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #114 on: February 15, 2025, 09:49:28 PM »
By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

Especially notable was the "upcoming recession" thread right before the market crash of 2022.  RWD also includes several during 2022, when the market was crashing.  Failing to distinguish when people were right, from when they weren't, weakens the value of that list.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #115 on: February 16, 2025, 02:07:46 AM »
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.........and all that.

Tasse

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #116 on: February 16, 2025, 07:50:55 AM »
By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

Especially notable was the "upcoming recession" thread right before the market crash of 2022.  RWD also includes several during 2022, when the market was crashing.  Failing to distinguish when people were right, from when they weren't, weakens the value of that list.

I disagree. The complete list really shows us that yes, some threads called the looming down market accurately, but those threads crop up so often that it's statistically impossible for someone not to have called it by pure chance. The list puts those occasions where someone happened to be right in context and helps me remember not to freak out just because someone on this forum is freaking out.

Morning Glory

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2025, 08:16:57 AM »
Rob Bob, Trump has been doing many things that are illegal and not within his authority. Vance is suggesting that they just ignore the courts because there’s no police force to back up the court orders. Musk and his teen squad have downloaded all of our information including any bank accounts that have had deposits from the federal government such as tax returns, etc.

They are putting forward a bill that says women need the same name as their birth certificate to vote. 69% of women can’t meet that requirement. With so many federal workers being fired the government won’t be able to function properly. Trump only wants people in government who are loyal to him. Federal workers take an oath to be loyal to the Constitution. They are going to crash the economy and people will lose their homes. They are trying to suppress free speech and we will be in a dictatorship.

I expect people to lose their homes whether or not the market crashes.  Public housing is already crumbling from lack of maintenance and there are waiting lists for section 8 vouchers.  2 children died from hypothermia in Detroit last weekend,  after the mother had been turned away from multiple shelters. It will happen more often and in more places if HUD funding gets cut. It's like something from Dickens.

Log

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #118 on: February 16, 2025, 07:22:41 PM »
..."clutching my pearls" (which is a sexist analogy by th way)...

*"Hand wringing " is ablist. It refers to a stim that autistic people sometimes do to calm down...

Can we not?

No one has ever been won over by puritanical language policing. It has proven completely useless for its intended purpose of purifying the moral character of society or whatever, and has in fact alienated so many people as to be utterly counter-productive.

Tyson

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #119 on: February 16, 2025, 07:29:14 PM »
By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

Especially notable was the "upcoming recession" thread right before the market crash of 2022.  RWD also includes several during 2022, when the market was crashing.  Failing to distinguish when people were right, from when they weren't, weakens the value of that list.

I disagree. The complete list really shows us that yes, some threads called the looming down market accurately, but those threads crop up so often that it's statistically impossible for someone not to have called it by pure chance. The list puts those occasions where someone happened to be right in context and helps me remember not to freak out just because someone on this forum is freaking out.

Agreed.  And I'd add that using the word 'crash' for dips in the market is wrong.  A 'crash' would indicate damage that is impossible to recover from.  A more accurate description would be 'a temporary downturn'.  Because downturns are always recovered from.  As anyone can see simply by looking at a graph of the S&P500 over the last hundred years.

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2025, 07:41:43 PM »
..."clutching my pearls" (which is a sexist analogy by th way)...

*"Hand wringing " is ablist. It refers to a stim that autistic people sometimes do to calm down...

Can we not?

No one has ever been won over by puritanical language policing. It has proven completely useless for its intended purpose of purifying the moral character of society or whatever, and has in fact alienated so many people as to be utterly counter-productive.

Not policing,  just informing.  I would want to be told if I accidentally used a phrase that is a right wing dog whistle or that derived from a way to make fun of a marginalized group or was somehow derogatory to a group of people.  For example I only recently found out that "high brow" and "low brow" when referring to literature originated with phrenology which was a racist pseudoscience so I'll try to not use those any more.

Especially these days where political figures are openly mocking people who are different and going after their civil rights, it doesn't hurt to be a little more thoughtful.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2025, 08:14:55 PM by Morning Glory »

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2025, 04:06:48 AM »
..."clutching my pearls" (which is a sexist analogy by th way)...

*"Hand wringing " is ablist. It refers to a stim that autistic people sometimes do to calm down...

Can we not?

No one has ever been won over by puritanical language policing. It has proven completely useless for its intended purpose of purifying the moral character of society or whatever, and has in fact alienated so many people as to be utterly counter-productive.

Not policing,  just informing.  I would want to be told if I accidentally used a phrase that is a right wing dog whistle or that derived from a way to make fun of a marginalized group or was somehow derogatory to a group of people.  For example I only recently found out that "high brow" and "low brow" when referring to literature originated with phrenology which was a racist pseudoscience so I'll try to not use those any more.

Especially these days where political figures are openly mocking people who are different and going after their civil rights, it doesn't hurt to be a little more thoughtful.

Oh, I didn't know the brow one, thanks for sharing!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 08:17:16 AM by Metalcat »

dragoncar

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2025, 04:13:27 AM »
..."clutching my pearls" (which is a sexist analogy by th way)...

*"Hand wringing " is ablist. It refers to a stim that autistic people sometimes do to calm down...

Can we not?

No one has ever been won over by puritanical language policing. It has proven completely useless for its intended purpose of purifying the moral character of society or whatever, and has in fact alienated so many people as to be utterly counter-productive.


Keep going I almost have bingo on hackneyed bullshit phrases

reeshau

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2025, 08:27:25 AM »
By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

Especially notable was the "upcoming recession" thread right before the market crash of 2022.  RWD also includes several during 2022, when the market was crashing.  Failing to distinguish when people were right, from when they weren't, weakens the value of that list.

I disagree. The complete list really shows us that yes, some threads called the looming down market accurately, but those threads crop up so often that it's statistically impossible for someone not to have called it by pure chance. The list puts those occasions where someone happened to be right in context and helps me remember not to freak out just because someone on this forum is freaking out.

Agreed.  And I'd add that using the word 'crash' for dips in the market is wrong.  A 'crash' would indicate damage that is impossible to recover from.  A more accurate description would be 'a temporary downturn'.  Because downturns are always recovered from.  As anyone can see simply by looking at a graph of the S&P500 over the last hundred years.

I prefer the term "sale".  If eggs prices dropped 25% tomorrow, people wouldn't be returning their eggs on suspicion they're not all they're cracked up to be.  We know eggs.  If you know the companies behind your stocks, you are less likely to panic, and be able to take advantage of situations Mr. Market presents you when he loses his shit.

Or index, and ignore it all while you get on with your life.

RWD

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #124 on: February 17, 2025, 09:09:31 AM »
By permission of RWD:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/is-the-market-overpriced/msg3313272/#msg3313272

TL-dr:
over 53 threads implying, worrying about, suggesting or stating market tops/overpricing/bubble and the then-current SP500 prices.
2013 to 2024
Market has mostly gone up since each of the threads.

RWD's list is specifically about the market pricing, but IMO also applies to events that influence or are perceived to influence, the market price.
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

Especially notable was the "upcoming recession" thread right before the market crash of 2022.  RWD also includes several during 2022, when the market was crashing.  Failing to distinguish when people were right, from when they weren't, weakens the value of that list.

Would you rather I only cherry-pick threads that make the market look less volatile? The list was never meant to demonstrate "look the market only goes up." It's just interesting data to see the frequency of those types of threads. Regardless of what the market will actually end up doing in the near term there is invariably someone concerned about an imminent crash.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #125 on: February 17, 2025, 09:52:12 AM »
Quote
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

I guess you hadn't heard, due to military and trade insecurity, they're considering re-joining. Brexit fixed nothing, immigration is up. Did the sky fall? No. Is Russia regularly threatening to nuke London? Yes.

It was a giant pain in the ass for British citizens living in other countries in Europe.  My dad ended up going through the process to become a citizen where he lived since he already had been living and working there for several years and spoke the language well. He had to give up his British citizenship to do so.

Economically, there's no question at all that Brexit seriously hurt the UK and the average Brit.

https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit
The comment was made in reference to US investors, SP500 specifically.   
I forgot that most people here are better informed than basically everybody I know IRL, and that there is a sizable British and Euro contingent here.
Sorry for being a bit dismissive about an issue that did and continues to affect people elsewhere.

In my defense, IRL, Brexit gets a ?Huh?, E.U. gets mistaken for "ee-uu that smells", European Union is something something in Europe (which most might not be able to find on a map).

My first exposure to the then European Communities was in a sermon in a fundamentalist church that compared the EC to the feet of clay and iron of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2:32*.  At the time, there were few enough members the number of toes kinda matched :-).  Now with 27 members, it is a bit of a harder stretch. It was being pitched as a sign of prophecy, and therefore a sign of the end of times (Rapture, Tribulations etc). 

* I had to look that up, as I don't follow that stuff anymore, but apparently made a memorable impact at the time.

Tyson

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #126 on: February 17, 2025, 11:33:14 AM »
Quote
Anyone remember the end-of-the-world breathless anxiety about Brexit?

I guess you hadn't heard, due to military and trade insecurity, they're considering re-joining. Brexit fixed nothing, immigration is up. Did the sky fall? No. Is Russia regularly threatening to nuke London? Yes.

It was a giant pain in the ass for British citizens living in other countries in Europe.  My dad ended up going through the process to become a citizen where he lived since he already had been living and working there for several years and spoke the language well. He had to give up his British citizenship to do so.

Economically, there's no question at all that Brexit seriously hurt the UK and the average Brit.

https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit
The comment was made in reference to US investors, SP500 specifically.   
I forgot that most people here are better informed than basically everybody I know IRL, and that there is a sizable British and Euro contingent here.
Sorry for being a bit dismissive about an issue that did and continues to affect people elsewhere.

In my defense, IRL, Brexit gets a ?Huh?, E.U. gets mistaken for "ee-uu that smells", European Union is something something in Europe (which most might not be able to find on a map).

My first exposure to the then European Communities was in a sermon in a fundamentalist church that compared the EC to the feet of clay and iron of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2:32*.  At the time, there were few enough members the number of toes kinda matched :-).  Now with 27 members, it is a bit of a harder stretch. It was being pitched as a sign of prophecy, and therefore a sign of the end of times (Rapture, Tribulations etc). 

* I had to look that up, as I don't follow that stuff anymore, but apparently made a memorable impact at the time.

Maybe RWD should start another thread documenting every time a religious end time prediction has failed.  That would be epic (and hilarious). 

RWD

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2025, 11:39:00 AM »
It was being pitched as a sign of prophecy, and therefore a sign of the end of times (Rapture, Tribulations etc).
Maybe RWD should start another thread documenting every time a religious end time prediction has failed.  That would be epic (and hilarious).
Nah, I'm good...

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2025, 11:40:40 AM »
..."clutching my pearls" (which is a sexist analogy by th way)...

*"Hand wringing " is ablist. It refers to a stim that autistic people sometimes do to calm down...

Can we not?

No one has ever been won over by puritanical language policing. It has proven completely useless for its intended purpose of purifying the moral character of society or whatever, and has in fact alienated so many people as to be utterly counter-productive.
Just because someone has once used a common phrase in a racist, sexist or ableist fashion, we should not therefore assume the phrase is forever tainted.

Wrong on both counts, according to random internet searches:

Hand wringing:

Recent Examples on the Web
Examples are automatically compiled from online sources to show current usage. Opinions expressed in the examples do not represent those of Merriam-Webster or its editors. Send us feedback.
There was a fair bit of hand-wringing entering Tuesday’s contest about where or if Jeff Skinner fit into the equation.
—Daniel Nugent-Bowman, The Athletic, 31 Dec. 2024
While hand-wringing Democrats and the media have focused on President Biden, Donald Trump met with Viktor Orban, the Hungarian prime minister.
—Letters To The Editor, The Mercury News, 18 July 2024
Please, no more contrived hand-wringing and pearl-clutching about the Trump dictatorship.
—Sun Sentinel Editorial Board, Sun Sentinel, 4 July 2024
Since last Monday, when Buckingham Palace announced that King Charles III had been diagnosed with cancer, the seventy-five-year-old monarch has been the subject of both hand-wringing concern and frenzied speculation.
—Anna Russell, The New Yorker, 12 Feb. 2024
Today, that hand-wringing delay has been nearly eliminated.
—Katie Palmer, STAT, 1 Dec. 2023
The combination of the new stadium, hand-wringing fans and — worst of all — disinterested indifference in the community has ripple effects beyond one locker room.
—Bryce Miller, San Diego Union-Tribune, 13 Nov. 2023
Both episodes benefit from a curiosity about human nature that goes beyond hand-wringing monologues about our capacity for greed or complacency, and an affection for people in all our absurd and messy glory.
—Angie Han, The Hollywood Reporter, 15 Mar. 2023
For all the hand-wringing Kidd does about getting his team back together, Doncic has played in 57 of 69 games.
—Tim Cowlishaw, Dallas News, 14 Mar. 2023

Pearl Clutching:

Pearl-clutching refers to a very shocked reaction, especially one in which you show more shock than you really feel in order to demonstrate that you think something is morally wrong. It can also be used to describe outrage or dramatic protest, especially from a woman, caused by something perceived as vulgar, in bad taste, or morally wrong.

cambridge.org+1
2 Sources

lhamo

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #129 on: February 17, 2025, 11:52:59 AM »
I did some more dirty market timing to boost my liquid cash stash a bit more, including:

Selling a few more shares of EBAY -- this time I did it through an order to sell when it hit my target price ($70), which it did on Friday.  My plan is to divest myself of it entirely over the next couple of years, as it was not something I bought myself (TheX bought it way back in 1999/2000) and I think it has run its course with so much more localized competition through FB Marketplace, etc.  I think I'll put in another order to sell a few more shares if it hits something above the highest 12 month price (currently $71.52) before the end of the month.  Thinking maybe $75?  If it doesn't hit that now, I can always wait.  I have a pretty high level of capital gains on it so need to space out the timing on harvesting those anyway.

Also sold a bit more FZROX, since the price is still decently high.  Maybe it will be higher later, maybe not.  At least now I have locked in some significant gains (I'm pushing $10/share) and have a bit more cash to float on while the world dissolves...


Morning Glory

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #130 on: February 17, 2025, 01:27:57 PM »
..."clutching my pearls" (which is a sexist analogy by th way)...

*"Hand wringing " is ablist. It refers to a stim that autistic people sometimes do to calm down...

Can we not?

No one has ever been won over by puritanical language policing. It has proven completely useless for its intended purpose of purifying the moral character of society or whatever, and has in fact alienated so many people as to be utterly counter-productive.
Just because someone has once used a common phrase in a racist, sexist or ableist fashion, we should not therefore assume the phrase is forever tainted.

Wrong on both counts, according to random internet searches:

Hand wringing:

Recent Examples on the Web
Examples are automatically compiled from online sources to show current usage. Opinions expressed in the examples do not represent those of Merriam-Webster or its editors. Send us feedback.
There was a fair bit of hand-wringing entering Tuesday’s contest about where or if Jeff Skinner fit into the equation.
—Daniel Nugent-Bowman, The Athletic, 31 Dec. 2024
While hand-wringing Democrats and the media have focused on President Biden, Donald Trump met with Viktor Orban, the Hungarian prime minister.
—Letters To The Editor, The Mercury News, 18 July 2024
Please, no more contrived hand-wringing and pearl-clutching about the Trump dictatorship.
—Sun Sentinel Editorial Board, Sun Sentinel, 4 July 2024
Since last Monday, when Buckingham Palace announced that King Charles III had been diagnosed with cancer, the seventy-five-year-old monarch has been the subject of both hand-wringing concern and frenzied speculation.
—Anna Russell, The New Yorker, 12 Feb. 2024
Today, that hand-wringing delay has been nearly eliminated.
—Katie Palmer, STAT, 1 Dec. 2023
The combination of the new stadium, hand-wringing fans and — worst of all — disinterested indifference in the community has ripple effects beyond one locker room.
—Bryce Miller, San Diego Union-Tribune, 13 Nov. 2023
Both episodes benefit from a curiosity about human nature that goes beyond hand-wringing monologues about our capacity for greed or complacency, and an affection for people in all our absurd and messy glory.
—Angie Han, The Hollywood Reporter, 15 Mar. 2023
For all the hand-wringing Kidd does about getting his team back together, Doncic has played in 57 of 69 games.
—Tim Cowlishaw, Dallas News, 14 Mar. 2023

Pearl Clutching:

Pearl-clutching refers to a very shocked reaction, especially one in which you show more shock than you really feel in order to demonstrate that you think something is morally wrong. It can also be used to describe outrage or dramatic protest, especially from a woman, caused by something perceived as vulgar, in bad taste, or morally wrong.

cambridge.org+1
2 Sources

I'm aware of the common figurative use for "hand wringing ". I've also never seen someone actually wring their hands unless they had some sort of neurological disorder.  It used to be quite fashionable to insult people by comparing them to people with disabilities (for example,  "dumb" used to mean a nonverbal person, and "spaz" was common millennial slang until fairly recently. I'm pretty sure I've seen "hand wringing" on a list of those but can't remember where and the first page of google is showing me the same links you posted).  Even if I'm wrong about the origin I still think it's rude and dismissive.

Pearl clutching still sounds pretty sexist.

If you look at my whole post instead of the little clip that was posted later , you can see I was more annoyed about the dismissiveness of the accusations than the actual words used. I  haven't observed anyone acting overly dramatic or shocked.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 01:37:36 PM by Morning Glory »

Tyson

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #131 on: February 17, 2025, 02:28:11 PM »
I'm aware of the common figurative use for "hand wringing ". I've also never seen someone actually wring their hands unless they had some sort of neurological disorder.  It used to be quite fashionable to insult people by comparing them to people with disabilities (for example,  "dumb" used to mean a nonverbal person, and "spaz" was common millennial slang until fairly recently. I'm pretty sure I've seen "hand wringing" on a list of those but can't remember where and the first page of google is showing me the same links you posted).  Even if I'm wrong about the origin I still think it's rude and dismissive.

Pearl clutching still sounds pretty sexist.

If you look at my whole post instead of the little clip that was posted later , you can see I was more annoyed about the dismissiveness of the accusations than the actual words used. I  haven't observed anyone acting overly dramatic or shocked.
I was the one that used those terms.  I used hand wringing for the men and pearl clutching for the women. I don't think that makes me sexist since I'm calling to account both sexes equally. 

Is there a list of 'you're an asshole if you use these terms' somewhere?  If so, please link it and I'll avoid using those terms in the future.  For the present, I apologize to any autistic people that were exposed to my comments about hand wringing. 

I do find it amusing that the person (me) telling people to calm down and that things are going to be OK is the one that gets attacked. 

My suspicion is that it's an example of displaced aggression.  To whit, there's a broader change happening politically, people are pissed, they don't have any ability to make any real changes to that broader environment, so instead they come here to the MMM community where they make themselves feel better by attacking people that tell them they might be over reacting. 

Re: being overly dramatic, you don't think an entire thread entitled "Is this bigger than a don't try and time the market event' is not overly dramatic?  The very question in the title implies that it's WAY WAY WAY worse than the worst thing that's ever happened in history.  So yeah, overly dramatic, from the very start.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 02:31:45 PM by Tyson »

Morning Glory

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #132 on: February 17, 2025, 03:05:14 PM »
I'm aware of the common figurative use for "hand wringing ". I've also never seen someone actually wring their hands unless they had some sort of neurological disorder.  It used to be quite fashionable to insult people by comparing them to people with disabilities (for example,  "dumb" used to mean a nonverbal person, and "spaz" was common millennial slang until fairly recently. I'm pretty sure I've seen "hand wringing" on a list of those but can't remember where and the first page of google is showing me the same links you posted).  Even if I'm wrong about the origin I still think it's rude and dismissive.

Pearl clutching still sounds pretty sexist.

If you look at my whole post instead of the little clip that was posted later , you can see I was more annoyed about the dismissiveness of the accusations than the actual words used. I  haven't observed anyone acting overly dramatic or shocked.
I was the one that used those terms.  I used hand wringing for the men and pearl clutching for the women. I don't think that makes me sexist since I'm calling to account both sexes equally. 

Is there a list of 'you're an asshole if you use these terms' somewhere?  If so, please link it and I'll avoid using those terms in the future.  For the present, I apologize to any autistic people that were exposed to my comments about hand wringing. 

I do find it amusing that the person (me) telling people to calm down and that things are going to be OK is the one that gets attacked. 

My suspicion is that it's an example of displaced aggression.  To whit, there's a broader change happening politically, people are pissed, they don't have any ability to make any real changes to that broader environment, so instead they come here to the MMM community where they make themselves feel better by attacking people that tell them they might be over reacting. 

Re: being overly dramatic, you don't think an entire thread entitled "Is this bigger than a don't try and time the market event' is not overly dramatic?  The very question in the title implies that it's WAY WAY WAY worse than the worst thing that's ever happened in history.  So yeah, overly dramatic, from the very start.

Oh hey, thanks for your civil reply. I'm sorry about the digression.  I think people have a good reason to be pissed about all sorts of things right now, and may not be able to express that anywhere in real life. It's hard to know people's specific situations and how soon and to what extent they'll be affected by the changes, plus its hard to keep up with everything happening so fast, so I would be more careful of dismissing real concerns . It does seem like there is a current of denial in this thread and others coming from multiple people. Plus nobody likes to be told to calm down.

The thread title is hyperbolic but not any more so than most news headlines.

This is the most comprehensive list I can find:
https://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avoid.html

Tyson

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #133 on: February 17, 2025, 03:32:55 PM »
I'm aware of the common figurative use for "hand wringing ". I've also never seen someone actually wring their hands unless they had some sort of neurological disorder.  It used to be quite fashionable to insult people by comparing them to people with disabilities (for example,  "dumb" used to mean a nonverbal person, and "spaz" was common millennial slang until fairly recently. I'm pretty sure I've seen "hand wringing" on a list of those but can't remember where and the first page of google is showing me the same links you posted).  Even if I'm wrong about the origin I still think it's rude and dismissive.

Pearl clutching still sounds pretty sexist.

If you look at my whole post instead of the little clip that was posted later , you can see I was more annoyed about the dismissiveness of the accusations than the actual words used. I  haven't observed anyone acting overly dramatic or shocked.
I was the one that used those terms.  I used hand wringing for the men and pearl clutching for the women. I don't think that makes me sexist since I'm calling to account both sexes equally. 

Is there a list of 'you're an asshole if you use these terms' somewhere?  If so, please link it and I'll avoid using those terms in the future.  For the present, I apologize to any autistic people that were exposed to my comments about hand wringing. 

I do find it amusing that the person (me) telling people to calm down and that things are going to be OK is the one that gets attacked. 

My suspicion is that it's an example of displaced aggression.  To whit, there's a broader change happening politically, people are pissed, they don't have any ability to make any real changes to that broader environment, so instead they come here to the MMM community where they make themselves feel better by attacking people that tell them they might be over reacting. 

Re: being overly dramatic, you don't think an entire thread entitled "Is this bigger than a don't try and time the market event' is not overly dramatic?  The very question in the title implies that it's WAY WAY WAY worse than the worst thing that's ever happened in history.  So yeah, overly dramatic, from the very start.

Oh hey, thanks for your civil reply. I'm sorry about the digression.  I think people have a good reason to be pissed about all sorts of things right now, and may not be able to express that anywhere in real life. It's hard to know people's specific situations and how soon and to what extent they'll be affected by the changes, plus its hard to keep up with everything happening so fast, so I would be more careful of dismissing real concerns . It does seem like there is a current of denial in this thread and others coming from multiple people. Plus nobody likes to be told to calm down.

The thread title is hyperbolic but not any more so than most news headlines.

This is the most comprehensive list I can find:
https://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avoid.html

Thanks for the list, I appreciate that. 

Re: things changing quickly and not necessarily for the better, I have had many conversations about this with my son (who is trans and thus at higher risk than many).  One of the big differences between the parties is that republicans are much more about states-rights and enabling the states to have power to make whatever changes they want, while democrats are much more concerned with establishing laws at the federal level, that apply to everyone equally. 

With the republicans in charge, we can expect to see a lot of changes empowering the states.  If you are trans and happen to live in a red state, things are going to get worse and quickly.  But there's a silver lining.  If you happen to live in a blue state, the blue states now have even MORE power to put in protections, at the state level.  Luckily we live in Colorado which has turned firmly blue in the last couple decades. 

If we happened to live in a red state, we would move to a blue state as quickly as we could.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 05:13:38 PM by Tyson »

dragoncar

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #134 on: February 17, 2025, 05:10:06 PM »

you don't think an entire thread entitled "Is this bigger than a don't try and time the market event' is not overly dramatic? 

I don’t.  Now to be clear, I’m not trying to time the market.  I don’t think I know if it will go up or down.  But my family, within just a few generations, has had to flee dictatorships with capital controls from two different countries.  So you’ll forgive my skepticism that it can’t happen here.  I will say that black swans happen and the country is currently on the precipice controlled by a mercurial nut job.  If you don’t see how this is different from any US scenario in living memory, then you simply haven’t been paying attention.

Will the stock market go up?  Probably.  I’m not betting my fortune on a crash.  But there are also a dozen things that can happen to blow up the market, and I don’t think “billionaires won’t let that happen” is a credible response. 

But short term market direction is not the point.  The point is that this is bigger than market timing.  This is an existential threat for some that, yes, may turn out fine, but also may not.  Is that dramatic?  Probably.  But it’s not overly dramatic . It’s dramatic to the degree warranted by current events. 




Tyson

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #135 on: February 17, 2025, 05:16:29 PM »

you don't think an entire thread entitled "Is this bigger than a don't try and time the market event' is not overly dramatic? 

I don’t.  Now to be clear, I’m not trying to time the market.  I don’t think I know if it will go up or down.  But my family, within just a few generations, has had to flee dictatorships with capital controls from two different countries.  So you’ll forgive my skepticism that it can’t happen here.  I will say that black swans happen and the country is currently on the precipice controlled by a mercurial nut job.  If you don’t see how this is different from any US scenario in living memory, then you simply haven’t been paying attention.

Will the stock market go up?  Probably.  I’m not betting my fortune on a crash.  But there are also a dozen things that can happen to blow up the market, and I don’t think “billionaires won’t let that happen” is a credible response. 

But short term market direction is not the point.  The point is that this is bigger than market timing.  This is an existential threat for some that, yes, may turn out fine, but also may not.  Is that dramatic?  Probably.  But it’s not overly dramatic . It’s dramatic to the degree warranted by current events.

Are you and your family preparing to flee the USA? 

dragoncar

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #136 on: February 17, 2025, 09:12:00 PM »
If need be.  Could go many ways

RWD

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #137 on: February 17, 2025, 09:13:32 PM »
But my family, within just a few generations, has had to flee dictatorships with capital controls from two different countries.  So you’ll forgive my skepticism that it can’t happen here.  I will say that black swans happen and the country is currently on the precipice controlled by a mercurial nut job.  If you don’t see how this is different from any US scenario in living memory, then you simply haven’t been paying attention.
Similar here. My grandmother barely made it out before the iron curtain fell. She didn't see her sister again for 40 years.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #138 on: February 17, 2025, 09:22:14 PM »
I wish I could be as sanguine as you, @Tyson , though I do appreciate reading alternate takes on the current situation. The “states’ rights” defense, for example, doesn’t quite square with some states offering bounties for catching women who have sought abortion in other states, among many other things.

Tyson

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #139 on: February 17, 2025, 10:43:13 PM »
I wish I could be as sanguine as you, @Tyson , though I do appreciate reading alternate takes on the current situation. The “states’ rights” defense, for example, doesn’t quite square with some states offering bounties for catching women who have sought abortion in other states, among many other things.

I feel lucky that my son and I live in a good state. 

Re: being sanguine, it's a choice.  I could be freaked out and on my guard for the next 4 years.  But I just don't want every day have a cloud hanging over it because of who the president is.  I used to be like that and I suffered a lot of anxiety and I'm just not willing to lose another 4 years of my life like that. 

The truth is, in my personal life, this past year has been amazing.  I feel grateful and happy.  I've built an incredible relationship with my son, I'm really happy in my job and am locked in to some great hobbies and I've met some new friends.  i'm not willing to sacrifice one ounce of my sense of joy.  I worked too hard to earn it and I'm not going to give away my happiness. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 10:46:28 PM by Tyson »

Fru-Gal

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #140 on: February 17, 2025, 11:19:18 PM »
I wish I could be as sanguine as you, @Tyson , though I do appreciate reading alternate takes on the current situation. The “states’ rights” defense, for example, doesn’t quite square with some states offering bounties for catching women who have sought abortion in other states, among many other things.

I feel lucky that my son and I live in a good state. 

Re: being sanguine, it's a choice.  I could be freaked out and on my guard for the next 4 years.  But I just don't want every day have a cloud hanging over it because of who the president is.  I used to be like that and I suffered a lot of anxiety and I'm just not willing to lose another 4 years of my life like that. 

The truth is, in my personal life, this past year has been amazing.  I feel grateful and happy.  I've built an incredible relationship with my son, I'm really happy in my job and am locked in to some great hobbies and I've met some new friends.  i'm not willing to sacrifice one ounce of my sense of joy.  I worked too hard to earn it and I'm not going to give away my happiness.

Interestingly, I feel the same way. My personal life is going great. However, it's in my nature -- as someone who's curious about how things work, who likes to be prepared, to keep my family and community safe, and to survive difficult challenges -- to watch this situation with some concern. I'm not sacrificing any of my personal joy by doing this, but I agree that we shouldn't allow this stuff to poison our own lives.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 12:42:56 AM by Fru-Gal »

Kris

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #141 on: February 18, 2025, 06:23:44 AM »
I'm aware of the common figurative use for "hand wringing ". I've also never seen someone actually wring their hands unless they had some sort of neurological disorder.  It used to be quite fashionable to insult people by comparing them to people with disabilities (for example,  "dumb" used to mean a nonverbal person, and "spaz" was common millennial slang until fairly recently. I'm pretty sure I've seen "hand wringing" on a list of those but can't remember where and the first page of google is showing me the same links you posted).  Even if I'm wrong about the origin I still think it's rude and dismissive.

Pearl clutching still sounds pretty sexist.

If you look at my whole post instead of the little clip that was posted later , you can see I was more annoyed about the dismissiveness of the accusations than the actual words used. I  haven't observed anyone acting overly dramatic or shocked.
I was the one that used those terms.  I used hand wringing for the men and pearl clutching for the women. I don't think that makes me sexist since I'm calling to account both sexes equally. 

Is there a list of 'you're an asshole if you use these terms' somewhere?  If so, please link it and I'll avoid using those terms in the future.  For the present, I apologize to any autistic people that were exposed to my comments about hand wringing. 

I do find it amusing that the person (me) telling people to calm down and that things are going to be OK is the one that gets attacked. 

My suspicion is that it's an example of displaced aggression.  To whit, there's a broader change happening politically, people are pissed, they don't have any ability to make any real changes to that broader environment, so instead they come here to the MMM community where they make themselves feel better by attacking people that tell them they might be over reacting. 

Re: being overly dramatic, you don't think an entire thread entitled "Is this bigger than a don't try and time the market event' is not overly dramatic?  The very question in the title implies that it's WAY WAY WAY worse than the worst thing that's ever happened in history.  So yeah, overly dramatic, from the very start.

Oh hey, thanks for your civil reply. I'm sorry about the digression.  I think people have a good reason to be pissed about all sorts of things right now, and may not be able to express that anywhere in real life. It's hard to know people's specific situations and how soon and to what extent they'll be affected by the changes, plus its hard to keep up with everything happening so fast, so I would be more careful of dismissing real concerns . It does seem like there is a current of denial in this thread and others coming from multiple people. Plus nobody likes to be told to calm down.

The thread title is hyperbolic but not any more so than most news headlines.

This is the most comprehensive list I can find:
https://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avoid.html

Thanks for the list, I appreciate that. 

Re: things changing quickly and not necessarily for the better, I have had many conversations about this with my son (who is trans and thus at higher risk than many).  One of the big differences between the parties is that republicans are much more about states-rights and enabling the states to have power to make whatever changes they want, while democrats are much more concerned with establishing laws at the federal level, that apply to everyone equally. 

With the republicans in charge, we can expect to see a lot of changes empowering the states.  If you are trans and happen to live in a red state, things are going to get worse and quickly.  But there's a silver lining.  If you happen to live in a blue state, the blue states now have even MORE power to put in protections, at the state level.  Luckily we live in Colorado which has turned firmly blue in the last couple decades. 

If we happened to live in a red state, we would move to a blue state as quickly as we could.

Except Republicans being for states’ rights really isn’t true. Especially this administration.

https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/trumps-attempt-to-unilaterally-control-state-and-local-funding-is-dangerous-dumb-and-undemocratic

Ron Scott

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #142 on: February 18, 2025, 06:53:37 AM »
Of course the US market will at some point lose its dominance, I believe. The problem is, exiting the US market and joining another one is also a “timing the market” choice.

In the past hundred years some countries’ markets have outperformed the US market. This was true following WW2 as Europe was spending heavily to rebuild, and in countries that industrialized later in the 20th century, e.g., China.

The EU will likely have to deregulate and shift spending toward the military going forward, and China seems to be headed in self-defeating social/economic/political directions because totalitarian communism is a bitch. Russia is a basket case. Africa is being raped. SA? Not feeling it. Middle East? Maybe, maybe not—that area yo-yo’s too much to instill investor confidence.

I guess I don’t see US markets being surpassed much during our lifetimes. (About 2% of my equity holdings are ex-US.)

Do you think I’m getting this wrong? Always willing to reconsider.

Just Joe

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #143 on: February 18, 2025, 08:02:02 AM »
Re: being sanguine, it's a choice.  I could be freaked out and on my guard for the next 4 years.  But I just don't want every day have a cloud hanging over it because of who the president is.

We're surrounded by Trump supporters. Not prepared to take a stand on anything b/c it could cost me my job and by extension our home, etc. Also not charismatic enough to change minds without causing problems for myself.

We could move but we're finally approaching retirement in a few years. I don't want to start all over somewhere else or move for that matter. We really like where we live. 

That's why I want all of Trump/Musk's BS to hurt his voters a little so perhaps, they will see and understand what the rest of us already know. Not ready for them to "burn it all down" but I would like to see some correctable FUBAR situations that stop the money flowing to his supporters for a while.

I believe my farmer friend is already feeling the pinch. There are some retirees I would like to see feel the hurt too for a while but they'd prob hand wave it all away saying something like "well it takes time to fix what's broken". Stopping SS payments would hurt alot of low income people in the process and that's not okay. One person we know specifically exists solely on SS payments.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #144 on: February 18, 2025, 08:23:14 AM »
Of course the US market will at some point lose its dominance, I believe. The problem is, exiting the US market and joining another one is also a “timing the market” choice.

In the past hundred years some countries’ markets have outperformed the US market. This was true following WW2 as Europe was spending heavily to rebuild, and in countries that industrialized later in the 20th century, e.g., China.

The EU will likely have to deregulate and shift spending toward the military going forward, and China seems to be headed in self-defeating social/economic/political directions because totalitarian communism is a bitch. Russia is a basket case. Africa is being raped. SA? Not feeling it. Middle East? Maybe, maybe not—that area yo-yo’s too much to instill investor confidence.

I guess I don’t see US markets being surpassed much during our lifetimes. (About 2% of my equity holdings are ex-US.)

Do you think I’m getting this wrong? Always willing to reconsider.

I have no fucking idea.  That's why my equities contain a hefty chunk of both US and international stocks.

LennStar

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #145 on: February 18, 2025, 09:14:11 AM »
2% non-US is certainly not enough for any resemblance of balance or risk split. Personally I go with about 40%-50% US - and that includes all those MegaCorps like Apple who are not really dependend on the US (and might actually profit from Trump rules).

IMHO you should not put more than 50% in any big economy area, be it North America, Europe or Asia.

jrhampt

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #146 on: February 18, 2025, 09:18:48 AM »
Re: being sanguine, it's a choice.  I could be freaked out and on my guard for the next 4 years.  But I just don't want every day have a cloud hanging over it because of who the president is.

We're surrounded by Trump supporters. Not prepared to take a stand on anything b/c it could cost me my job and by extension our home, etc. Also not charismatic enough to change minds without causing problems for myself.

We could move but we're finally approaching retirement in a few years. I don't want to start all over somewhere else or move for that matter. We really like where we live. 

That's why I want all of Trump/Musk's BS to hurt his voters a little so perhaps, they will see and understand what the rest of us already know. Not ready for them to "burn it all down" but I would like to see some correctable FUBAR situations that stop the money flowing to his supporters for a while.

I believe my farmer friend is already feeling the pinch. There are some retirees I would like to see feel the hurt too for a while but they'd prob hand wave it all away saying something like "well it takes time to fix what's broken". Stopping SS payments would hurt alot of low income people in the process and that's not okay. One person we know specifically exists solely on SS payments.

My parents are Southern, rural Trump voters who depend on the VA for healthcare, are wait-listed for senior services like meals on wheels and home health visits, and whose only income is SS (with a little help from the kids).  Unfortunately, if they no longer have SS and the VA, it falls on us (and none of us voted for Trump).  It's frustrating.  I don't think SS will go away, but I do think there's a real risk of impact to the VA from cuts there in staffing, even if not in overall funding, and I would not be surprised if other senior services are cut.  Idk whether or not they will see this as a direct consequence of their votes, but we surely will.

Ron Scott

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #147 on: February 18, 2025, 09:32:46 AM »
Of course the US market will at some point lose its dominance, I believe. The problem is, exiting the US market and joining another one is also a “timing the market” choice.

In the past hundred years some countries’ markets have outperformed the US market. This was true following WW2 as Europe was spending heavily to rebuild, and in countries that industrialized later in the 20th century, e.g., China.

The EU will likely have to deregulate and shift spending toward the military going forward, and China seems to be headed in self-defeating social/economic/political directions because totalitarian communism is a bitch. Russia is a basket case. Africa is being raped. SA? Not feeling it. Middle East? Maybe, maybe not—that area yo-yo’s too much to instill investor confidence.

I guess I don’t see US markets being surpassed much during our lifetimes. (About 2% of my equity holdings are ex-US.)

Do you think I’m getting this wrong? Always willing to reconsider.

I have no fucking idea.  That's why my equities contain a hefty chunk of both US and international stocks.

2% non-US is certainly not enough for any resemblance of balance or risk split. Personally I go with about 40%-50% US - and that includes all those MegaCorps like Apple who are not really dependend on the US (and might actually profit from Trump rules).

IMHO you should not put more than 50% in any big economy area, be it North America, Europe or Asia.

I think if I lived outside the US as you guys do I’d be putting a big chuck of my equities into US stocks—but certainly not all!

There are MANY US investors that diversify into the EU, Asia, etc. too—and all the big brokerage houses will suggest you do when asked. I just don’t think it benefits us too much to do that.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #148 on: February 18, 2025, 10:55:29 AM »
This thread really has me thinking. We need red lines, that, if violated, would indicate that the US stock markets or US economy no longer resemble the economy our backtests are based on. These would have to be major structural changes that would make the US more like the foreign economies we just habitually don't use for backtesting.

For example, a rethink of our mantras might be reasonable if policies were enacted that

(a) could cause a great depression scenario, or
(b) could cause hyperinflation, or
(c) could cause political violence and instability that would affect business operations or demand, or
(d) start a major war that the US would lose, or
(e) significantly reduce the US's standing in the Democracy Index or the Corruption Index.

Obviously, the U.S. has historically excelled in all these areas. We had policies that prevented recessions from turning into depressions or inflation from turning into hyperinflation. We had democratic systems, independent media, and civic society that prevented political instability and kept disagreements and reform within the boundaries of political activism. We had the invincible NATO alliance and the financial depth to fight wars for decades if we thought necessary. Finally, we were in the top 20 list of democracies and bottom 20 in terms of corruption.

But that was history. If we cite these reasons for why the US's historical performance enabled a 4% SWR, while the SWR in many other countries was much higher, then it only makes sense that the removal of these reasons might justify either a much lower SWR estimate or a "rebalancing" toward countries that exhibit higher stability and growth potential. It's not that the U.S. is inherently a great place to invest because of its name or whatever, it's that the U.S. was doing the right things to make it a great place to invest for most of the last 150 years.

In other words, we'd edit our "B&H in the USA" mantra to "B&H in stable democracies with low corruption" and if the U.S. failed that test we'd end up looking abroad. If we found few opportunities, or the opportunities were more concentrated, then maybe a more bond-centric, USD-avoidant portfolio would be a better bet.

So, back to red lines. For me, the following might trigger a significant move away from U.S. equity and currency risk.

RED LINES:
*The US treasury takes on debt to buy cryptocurrency, in an obvious pump and dump scheme
*The Congressional Budget Office is abolished, neutralized, or packed with cronies.
*Ten independent journalists are jailed for criticizing the regime.
*The Constitution is changed to enable Trump to run for a third term, or for Musk to run for president.
*Social Security is significantly cut, defined as a 10% reduction in payments OR an end to inflation indexing.
*Medicaid or Medicare are significantly cut, defined as a 20% reduction in spending.
*Government data sources such as the BEA, BLS, or Federal Reserve Banks either stop reporting key data series OR are politically influenced so that the data are not considered credible by a significant number (20%) of economists who previously considered them credible.
*The US government attempts to unilaterally cancel treasury debts to a non-governmental bondholder.
*The projected US federal deficit surpasses 15% of GDP in the absence of a recession, or 25% during a recession.
*The US enters a military conflict with China.
*Compulsory primary and secondary education is ended OR most public schools are privatized/closed.
*The government attempts to switch back to an asset-based currency system, such as a gold-standard or crypto-standard.
*Three or more state universities are shuttered due to funding being cut off.
*The Federal Reserve cuts rates in an inflationary environment due to political pressure, or disengages from rate-setting.
*The executive branch ignores a clear ruling from the Supreme Court.
*The SEC or FDIC are abolished, gutted, or limited.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 10:58:35 AM by ChpBstrd »

Fru-Gal

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Re: Is this bigger than a "don't try and time the market" event?
« Reply #149 on: February 18, 2025, 11:02:18 AM »
The red line was already crossed with the Jan 6 insurrection.