Author Topic: Is the diesel engine dead?  (Read 1266 times)

Drew0311

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Is the diesel engine dead?
« on: February 16, 2017, 04:39:35 PM »
Let's start by asking ourselves why buy a diesel in the first place?

less moving parts
higher low end torque (better for towing)
rugged and durable (great for industry/commercial use)
fuel easier to produce than gasoline 
higher mpg

Seems like a pretty good choice for a lot of applications, but all of the emissions issues and the fact that you have to add that annoying exhaust fluid
has made them a bit less desirable, but not quite dead. Not quite dead until that new EV semi becomes ubiquitous. Have you guys seen this 1,000 hp, 2,000 lb ft torque monster that they are selling with 1 million miles of free fuel (hydrogen)? I'm not trying to promote them or anything...I just want to discuss the kind of impact that this type of drivetrain will have. I mean this truck makes a diesel truck look like a horse. How can the diesel compete?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2017, 06:43:21 PM »
Let's start by asking ourselves why buy a diesel in the first place?

less moving parts
higher low end torque (better for towing)
rugged and durable (great for industry/commercial use)
fuel easier to produce than gasoline 
higher mpg

Seems like a pretty good choice for a lot of applications, but all of the emissions issues and the fact that you have to add that annoying exhaust fluid
has made them a bit less desirable, but not quite dead. Not quite dead until that new EV semi becomes ubiquitous. Have you guys seen this 1,000 hp, 2,000 lb ft torque monster that they are selling with 1 million miles of free fuel (hydrogen)? I'm not trying to promote them or anything...I just want to discuss the kind of impact that this type of drivetrain will have. I mean this truck makes a diesel truck look like a horse. How can the diesel compete?
Do you have a link to such a vehicle?
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

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JLee

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2017, 08:06:32 PM »
Let's start by asking ourselves why buy a diesel in the first place?

less moving parts
higher low end torque (better for towing)
rugged and durable (great for industry/commercial use)
fuel easier to produce than gasoline 
higher mpg

Seems like a pretty good choice for a lot of applications, but all of the emissions issues and the fact that you have to add that annoying exhaust fluid
has made them a bit less desirable, but not quite dead. Not quite dead until that new EV semi becomes ubiquitous. Have you guys seen this 1,000 hp, 2,000 lb ft torque monster that they are selling with 1 million miles of free fuel (hydrogen)? I'm not trying to promote them or anything...I just want to discuss the kind of impact that this type of drivetrain will have. I mean this truck makes a diesel truck look like a horse. How can the diesel compete?
Do you have a link to such a vehicle?

I'm assuming it's this guy: http://fortune.com/2016/12/04/nikola-motors-hydrogen-truck/

Drew0311

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2017, 08:24:55 PM »
That's the one. What do you guys think?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2017, 08:27:48 PM »
That's the one. What do you guys think?
Sounds like it has many of the same problems as Tesla does. Great technology; will be interesting to see if it is sustainable with its special fuel needs.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

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Roland of Gilead

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2017, 08:32:12 PM »
How are they storing that much hydrogen for a 1200 mile range?  No way they are using liquid right?

Drew0311

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2017, 09:10:37 PM »
Sounds like they are storing it under high pressure. I don't think it will be in liquid form. I had heard that they would be using natural gas powered onboard generators (kinda like the Volt) but I go they're trying to go zero emission. I'm sure they will have some kinks to work out but I see a revolution coming....epic disruption ahead!! Love it

CdnChris

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2017, 11:48:12 PM »
Have not followed hydrogen as a fuel in a while but isn't the issue the fuel production; cost and environmental impact?

I will also admit I am biased, I run both my diesel vehicles on waste vegetable oil (WVO). Diesel engines are quite remarkable in terms of the range of fuel quality that they can use successfully.

Having said that my ultimate goal right now is an electric vehicle or at least an electric bicycle for personal use, even using WVO I am not thrilled about the pollution.

Given the prevalence of diesel vehicles in industrial applications I suspect it will take quite a while to age all of them out even after a successful electric alternative exists.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2017, 06:14:39 AM »
http://www.cumminshub.com/ecodiesel.html

I am hoping for over production and a market turn down when this engine with quad cab, 4x4, and 8 speed transmission for under $25k and my mustachianism is out the window!

editwould of course have to be 0% down and 0% interest, hehe.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:11:31 AM by hoping2retire35 »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2017, 07:30:18 AM »
Have not followed hydrogen as a fuel in a while but isn't the issue the fuel production; cost and environmental impact?

Essentially, yes. Current state-of-the-art hydrogen production uses more energy than it yields back as a fuel. So hydrogen itself is abundant, and it's not a bad fuel, but it's generally attached to other molecules in compounds that are not good fuels.
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ncornilsen

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2017, 07:35:03 AM »
On the contrary, I think the deisel will be around long after gasoline engines are done. Seems to me, that the applications for gasoline engines are more easily replace with electric.


Just Joe

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2017, 07:57:47 AM »
Diesel fluid (DEF) is a hassle but dealing with hydrogen isn't? ;)

I agree if we are going to rely on big trucks for deliveries/construction, any progress on emissions is a good thing. They consume more fuel than anything else on the road and their lifecycle is longer so emissions technology marches on while these trucks pile on the miles with "old" emissions technology.

I STILL want a turbo diesel VW. I think the lower revving engine and ~50 mpg makes for a good touring combination. Too bad VW poisoned public opinion on diesel cars. I'd very much like to have a smallish pickup truck with a manual transmission and a turbo diesel ala Toyota Tacoma (think hi-lux) and four doors.

Has been entertaining to listen to people express admiration of hot rod diesel trucks (some with the fuel turned up for powah!) and then hear people complain about VW pollution.  The number of VWs on the road are tiny compared to all the diesel pickups from multiple brands rolling down the highways. Also 2.0L VWs vs 6+ liter pickups.

TheFixer

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2017, 08:04:18 AM »
Compression ignition and spark ignition are merging.
Newest mazda skyactiv gas engine: direct injection, turbo, 14:1CR
Newest Mazda Skyactive Diesel engine: direct injection, turbo, 14.5:1CR.

Gas engines are trying to use the best features of Diesel (high CR, turbo, DI), while keeping common fuel availability.
Diesel engines are adopting gas engine tech(EFI, catalysts...) and trying to lower CR as much as possible (reduced NOx formation) while maintaining cold start viability.

Ultimately, the true Diesel will die (like the Wankel did recently) due to ever more stringent regs which will make it cost prohibitive to produce an EPA legal engine. Big trucks will hang on longer because the several thousand dollar upfront penalty of purchasing a Diesel can be amortized over 500,000mile lifespan of operating at 10% better MPG. That math doesn't work for a cheap car like my Golf TDI.

Hopefully battery tech will continue to improve and electric will be able to replace combustion cars soon. I would have a Leaf, but we are a 1 car household and DW likes her old Golf with 800mile range.



Roland of Gilead

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2017, 08:05:16 AM »
Actually I think I remember reading that the new diesels produce LOWER emissions than gasoline engines and diesel fuel has a higher energy density and the engine is more efficient than gasoline.

And yes, while a truck might only get 10 mpg and a gasoline car 30 mpg, the truck can haul 50,000 pounds and the car 500.

It would take quite a few cars to fill up a grocery store with food each week.


NoStacheOhio

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2017, 10:05:38 AM »
I STILL want a turbo diesel VW. I think the lower revving engine and ~50 mpg makes for a good touring combination. Too bad VW poisoned public opinion on diesel cars. I'd very much like to have a smallish pickup truck with a manual transmission and a turbo diesel ala Toyota Tacoma (think hi-lux) and four doors.

I would consider selling a kidney for a diesel Hilux. And I don't even have a real reason to own a truck.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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RyanAtTanagra

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neo von retorch

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2017, 02:47:42 PM »

Just Joe

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Re: Is the diesel engine dead?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2017, 03:55:21 PM »
Isn't Chevy already selling a version of this vehicle in the rest of the world as an Opel or Holden or Vauxhall?

It is my understanding that they only have to get it to market here, no develop the car from scratch.