Author Topic: Is it racist?  (Read 20103 times)

wepner

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Is it racist?
« on: July 17, 2013, 09:06:31 AM »
You know how people constantly debate whether things said by politicians/celebrities/CEO's or whatever are racist or not? Everyone has different takes on these kind of things but lets see if we can't get some kind of consensus on some things.

This one should be a pretty easy one (at least for me)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LRVGY04J-LQ


Sure you get a shot out to MLK to throw us off the scent, but talking about breeding and incredible DNA isn't pretty... I guess you could argue that its just nativist but I'm thinking it still counts as racist.

Also if you've got your own quote or video of an at least semi well known person saying something that is debatably racist and want the judgement of fellow forum members to help you out feel free to post it here.

There's a 99% chance this thread will end up absolutely terrible with people posting racist things from groups they disagree with just to prove a point (that might be what I'm doing subconsciously, to be fair) but I have faith that people will follow "the honor system" this has a 1% chance to be a thought provoking or or maybe even fun thread. This kind of thing is fun to me but maybe I'm just a weirdo.

Louisville

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 09:58:56 AM »
There's a 99% chance this thread will end up absolutely terrible with people posting racist things from groups they disagree with just to prove a point (that might be what I'm doing subconsciously, to be fair)...
So why do it? Not appropriate for this website.

wepner

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2013, 10:11:06 AM »
Off Topic
A place to discuss anything and everything. Want to chat about sports, politics, the weather, or any other miscellaneous topic that doesn't fit in the Mustachian discussions above? This is the place.

-I'm super interested in what people think qualifies as racism.
-There have been quite a few mentions of race/racism in lots of posts in tons of topics
-If this thread gets shitty I won't check it anymore so it won't harm me in any way

dragoncar

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2013, 10:16:12 AM »
Can't view it now, but racism is a bit like diamond encrusted designer dog bowls -- "if you have to ask..."

BlueMR2

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2013, 10:40:35 AM »
A lot of assumptions in that video, right off the bat, just like with most racist things.  I'm not of the bloodline of the founders of the country.  Nor, am I of the bloodline of slave owners (as I've been accused of by angry people of non-white colors on multiple occasions -- nothing like having somebody rip something out of your hands saying you owe it to them because your ancestors owned their ancestors, when it's not even remotely true).  My ancestors were poor German peasants who arrived here well after the war between the states and worked hard to bring themselves up from poverty here.

I hate both sides of the immigration argument, but respect that both sides have some valid points.  No, people illegally in the country shouldn't be getting all the government programs.  What part of *illegally* do you not get?  On the other side, why are we making it so insanely hard to let people immigrate legally?  We should be welcoming them with open arms!  We don't like doing the tough, dirty jobs ourselves and there are people begging for that  work to make a better life for themselves.  Let 'em in and put 'em to work!

AlmostIndependent

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2013, 01:14:47 PM »
Racist? Maybe. Ignorant? Absolutely.

hybrid

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2013, 03:04:31 PM »
I live in Richmond VA (home of the largest collection of second place trophies, otherwise known as Monument Avenue) and to say race isn't a part of the fabric of this community would be the equivalent of putting on blinders.  My family moved here in 1972 when I was a child and I experienced everything from busing to going to a high school which was 95% white to working at the central Post Office which was 90% black.  As a letter carrier I delivered to all kinds of neighborhoods.  Those are my creds, here are my thoughts.

Race is still a big issue in 2013 - but not as a big as it used to be.  I think it's a bigger issue in the black community than the white community - and whites are very weary of race.  I think that all people by human nature are far more likely to associate with people that are like them and too often race is what continues to define similarities.  The neighborhood I live in is integrated, perhaps 30% black, 10% Latino and 55% white and 5% everyone else.  If all neighborhoods were like mine race would not be an issue.  But most neighborhoods are still racially segregated.  Churches are extremely racially segregated.  Richmond city schools have become almost all black over the years, so those are segregated again.  And the best jobs are still dominated by whites.  Which means we still have far to go, and I think only time will solve that riddle.  Affirmative action righted many wrongs, but it has run its course.

Where to go with that?  If I were to make broad sweeping suggestions I would start here.  To the white community, you need to ditch your stereotypes and stop being afraid of blacks.  And stop pretending that the playing field is finally level, it isn't (there just isn't much anyone can do about it).  To the black community, you need to ditch the notion that the glass ceiling is always going to hold you back.  And ditch all the gangsta crap while you are at it (its one reason why whites are afraid of you for dumb reasons).  And fully embrace education.  Life isn't a pure meritocracy, but plenty of opportunities exist.  To the Latino community, just keep doing what you are doing and I hope immigration reform passes.  Folks that gripe about Latinos not knowing English forget the fact that the second generation of immigrants grows up learning English, not Spanish.  My Salvadoran neighbors were wonderful folks, the parents struggled mightily with English but the kids were more fluent in English than Spanish.  Change takes time.

To the Tea Party,  stop pretending you are culturally diverse.  It's a joke.  You are not a bunch of racists like Dems make you out to be, but you are lily white (and all too angry, which occasionally comes off as intolerant) all the same.  To the Dems, stop taking the minority vote for granted.  To minorities in general, get more involved politically.  If you don't vote at the same percentages as whites do, you will always be underrepresented.  To everyone, don't assume, even though your brain is hard wired to jump to conclusions we all have to avoid that pitfall.  It is what I have struggled with the most, the J in my ENTJ personality is entirely too strong.

And now to climb down from my soapbox....

Sofa King

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2013, 03:48:26 PM »
If you are black you can't be racist and can say ANYTHING you want and not be judged. You can have "Black Pride" but if you have "White Pride" you will then be called a racist.  There are SO many double standards when it comes to race. Sadly things will never change. 

Let's face it, young black men are feared by other races as well as other black people.

If generations of young black men hadn't terrorized civil society and thereby tainted society's view of them, Trayvon Martin would probably be alive today.

And I am sure what I said here will be called racist.   Even tho what I say is true.

 

matchewed

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2013, 04:24:44 PM »
If you are black you can't be racist and can say ANYTHING you want and not be judged. You can have "Black Pride" but if you have "White Pride" you will then be called a racist.  There are SO many double standards when it comes to race. Sadly things will never change. 

Let's face it, young black men are feared by other races as well as other black people.

If generations of young black men hadn't terrorized civil society and thereby tainted society's view of them, Trayvon Martin would probably be alive today.

And I am sure what I said here will be called racist.   Even tho what I say is true.

Because it is racist. You're targeting black men as having terrorized civilized society when just as many white men have. Yet I can easily walk down the street all the while being regarded as an upstanding citizen when someone my same age, grown up in the same neighborhood, same income, but is a black man is treated differently based on ignorant views like your own.

What you say isn't true and there is institutionalized racism in this country targeting minorities. That's the reason there are a large % of black men in prison. It's not because they terrorize society it is because society has institutionalized a fear of them.

As for Black Pride vs. White Pride - You can be proud of your heritage, much like BlueMR2 said he can trace back his heritage to a specific country and from a specific time. If you're a black person in America you're probably descended from this shithole of a time in this country's history. Where you can't trace back to where you came from. No country, no culture, so you build it. You develop it. You are now a black person in America which comes with a large amount of being treated as less than a white person.

It is so easy for people to forget that not even 50 years ago we still had segregation. And you have the balls to say that there are double standards. If anything in this country the track record of white people treating black people like animals and terrorizing civil people far out weighs anything in your head that you could even think to present as black people terrorizing civil society.

Sofa King

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2013, 04:31:01 PM »

matchewed

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2013, 05:33:26 PM »
Fair enough but you still haven't addressed your racism based fears of black men. It's super awesome that you agree with a guy on whether there should be a black history month. Doesn't make you not racist for your prior post.

Sofa King

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2013, 07:23:52 PM »
To the black community, you need to ditch the notion that the glass ceiling is always going to hold you back.  And ditch all the gangsta crap while you are at it (its one reason why whites are afraid of you for dumb reasons).  And fully embrace education.  Change takes time.



I concur.

.22guy

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2013, 07:41:33 PM »
-If this thread gets shitty I won't check it anymore so it won't harm me in any way

So you are just going to drop a grenade in the middle of the room, then bail.  Nice.

Jamesqf

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2013, 12:12:42 AM »
On the other side, why are we making it so insanely hard to let people immigrate legally?

Because the place is too damned crowded already?  And yes, I also wish the people already here would have fewer kids, regardless of whether they're white, brown, black, or orange with purple spots.

wepner

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2013, 03:08:37 AM »
-If this thread gets shitty I won't check it anymore so it won't harm me in any way

So you are just going to drop a grenade in the middle of the room, then bail.  Nice.

Nope. There wasn't any activity for awhile so I forgot about this thread. I'm back now. Although the idea of creating a thread like this to draw in all the people I don't want to talk to in other threads is a pretty ingenious idea now that I think of it. But I don't have the willpower. Same reason why I can't force myself to add someone to my ignore list.

I agree with Morgan 100%!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2d2SzRZvsQ

I always find the approach of "look even a black guy agrees with me" approach to proving you aren't a racist really interesting. Not that this necessarily applies to anyone here. A year later the same youtuber (or whatever they are supposed to be called) that posted the video you like so much posted this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZYd6wZ1T_k (of Morgan Freeman calling tea partiers racist)

But now the guy wishes Morgan Freeman would just shut up and act. Interesting. Its funny that the perceived credibility that a black guy has talking about black history month, immediately goes away if that same black guy has an idea that is inconvenient or unflattering. 

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2013, 08:36:16 AM »
"Is this racist?"

Yes. The answer is always yes. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have to ask.

Does anyone else think we're just not good at this multiculturalism stuff? Folks naturally seem to keep to their own kind. Maybe we ought to let them-- carve off some part of the Deep South as Blacktopia as reparations, because, yeah, y'all kinda owe them. While we're at it, give the Hispanics back all the territory stolen from them in the Mexican-American war. (Let's face it: that whole conquest was a seriously dick move.) Give everybody a homeland, and they can be happy within it. Seems to work in Europe, except for the once-a-generation apocalyptic murderfest that those homelands usually get up to.
... okay. Maybe Multiculturalism isn't so bad.

Jamesqf

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2013, 11:47:08 AM »
While we're at it, give the Hispanics back all the territory stolen from them in the Mexican-American war.

Completely disregarding the fact that the Hispanics had earlier "stolen" it from various Indian nations?  And that those nations had in their turn "stolen" it from earlier peoples, going pretty well back to that first trip over the Bering Strait.

Then we might ask just what constitutes "their own kind".  I know I much prefer the company of my fellow geeks, in all their racial/ethnic variety, to that of a lot of people whose skin tones match my own, but whose heads are apparently in some other universe.

Sofa King

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2013, 04:57:59 PM »

I agree with Morgan 100%!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2d2SzRZvsQ

I always find the approach of "look even a black guy agrees with me" approach to proving you aren't a racist really interesting.

How do you know I am not a"black guy" as well?  I like how you ASSume my skin color.  LOL!!

matchewed

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2013, 05:10:21 PM »

I agree with Morgan 100%!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2d2SzRZvsQ

I always find the approach of "look even a black guy agrees with me" approach to proving you aren't a racist really interesting.

How do you know I am not a"black guy" as well?  I like how you ASSume my skin color.  LOL!!

There was no assumption of your race in that comment.

Self-employed-swami

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2013, 05:56:03 PM »
DNA isn't all it's cracked up to be.  I think most of a person's 'successes' or outcomes in life, can be traced to what influenced them, growing up (expectations of care-givers and the like).

That clip made my hair stand up, even if it wasn't overtly 'racist' (just generally anti-immigrant, despite the majority of immigrants being visible minorities).

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2013, 09:55:54 PM »
While we're at it, give the Hispanics back all the territory stolen from them in the Mexican-American war.

Completely disregarding the fact that the Hispanics had earlier "stolen" it from various Indian nations?  And that those nations had in their turn "stolen" it from earlier peoples, going pretty well back to that first trip over the Bering Strait.

Then we might ask just what constitutes "their own kind".  I know I much prefer the company of my fellow geeks, in all their racial/ethnic variety, to that of a lot of people whose skin tones match my own, but whose heads are apparently in some other universe.
I'll try and plant my tongue more obviously in my cheek next time, James. I thought the end of that paragraph would reveal how I really felt.

That said? Taking over half of Mexico was a dick move. Not that the Mexicans (or anybody else) was ever any better; it's a dick move, regardless. Not that it much matters to this thread.

grantmeaname

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 08:11:19 AM »
Completely disregarding the fact that the Hispanics had earlier "stolen" it from various Indian nations?  And that those nations had in their turn "stolen" it from earlier peoples, going pretty well back to that first trip over the Bering Strait.

And I quote:
Others, with more knowledge of (pre)history and human nature, would claim that the current tribes had conquered/stole those lands from earlier peoples, who took them from still earlier ones, all the way back to the second group to come over the Bering land bridge.
My anthropological-bullshit-meter is screaming. You pulled this one out of your ass.
The date of the first migration is not pinned down even to within a millennium. There are sites up and down both coasts and inland on both continents dating to mere centuries after the first firm Alaskan migration dates. There's no clear cultural or genetic link between the first people and their successors, or their successors and their successors' successors, on and on until at least 0 AD (that's probably the first 10,000 years of the Americas' prehistory, for those of you at home keeping count). In most of the nation, including here in the Ohio Valley where my research and study has been done, there's not even a clear link between the historic tribes and their immediate (1300-~1600AD) successors.

On top of that, no halfway self-respecting social scientist would dare to try and characterize the murky, distant, and poorly-understood interactions between two societies millennia ago as stealing lands; in fact, the data are not even there to suggest that conquest is the only possible way in which cultural change was effected. It could also be intermarriage, religious conversion, technological adoption, religious revival, migration, theft or trade of intellectual property, theft or trade of material property, changes in dominant funerary ideas, or extinction of societies due to infectious disease, malnutrition, war with neighbors other than those who replaced them, or changing climatic or ecological conditions (to name a few). The archaeological record has to be extraordinarily clear in order to even begin to tease apart such a complicated knot, and it seldom is except for in very recent history. Even if the cause could be determined to be conquest by some miracle of preservation and interpretation, calling it theft is assigning our moral values to their actions, a flagrant ethnocentric bias that does nothing for our understanding of the events as they transpired and instead seeks to box them in to our tidy narratives. That shit would not get you published. It would get you laughed out of the profession.

hybrid

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2013, 10:03:10 AM »
If you are black you can't be racist and can say ANYTHING you want and not be judged. You can have "Black Pride" but if you have "White Pride" you will then be called a racist.  There are SO many double standards when it comes to race. Sadly things will never change. 

Let's face it, young black men are feared by other races as well as other black people.

If generations of young black men hadn't terrorized civil society and thereby tainted society's view of them, Trayvon Martin would probably be alive today.

And I am sure what I said here will be called racist.   Even tho what I say is true.

I'm going to guess you are white and if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.  I assume this because the only people I have heard made these kinds of comments are white (and, not coincidentally, conservative).  You know why there isn't an official White History Month in the US?  Because EVERY month is already White History Month!   If one is white and not fully aware of all the advantages American society provides whites by default, then yes indeed, perhaps one needs something as asenine and redundant as White Pride.

Sofa King

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2013, 12:25:28 PM »

Jamesqf

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2013, 01:00:27 PM »
That shit would not get you published. It would get you laughed out of the profession.

Sorry, but you need to make a distinction between always and never, and between the absense of evidence and evidence of absense.  (I think it's that reading comprehension thing again.)  It's perfectly true that cultural & demographic changes can & have occurred for reasons other than war & conquest, in pre-Columbian North America as well as the rest of the world.  It's complete BS to claim that war & conquest never caused these changes, because there is ample historical & archeological evidence that it did.

matchewed

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grantmeaname

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2013, 03:02:34 PM »
Sorry, but you need to make a distinction between always and never, and between the absense of evidence and evidence of absense.
You stated your opinion as a fact. I said the evidence doesn't exist to support that. It's not about always or never, and you're the one on the wrong side of the evidence of absence concept.

atlbrew

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2013, 04:57:35 PM »
Interesting conversation.  I went to high school in Selma, AL.  Living in different parts of the country (Texas, Mississippi, Wisconsin, Oklahoma) and then moving to Selma was quite the culture shock as Selma is still basically stuck in the 1950's.  For a town that was at the center of the civil rights movement, it has not changed one single bit.  100% white country club and private high school, 99.5% black high school.  Literally a city divided by one street with "white" grocery stores on one side and "black" grocery stores on the other.  This was in 2003.

All that said, if you have to ask, "is it racist", it probably is.  However, the sensitivities from all groups today is to the extreme.

Jamesqf

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 06:15:49 PM »
You stated your opinion as a fact. I said the evidence doesn't exist to support that. It's not about always or never, and you're the one on the wrong side of the evidence of absence concept.

So?  There is no evidence to support the Spanish conquest of New Spain?  None to support the creation of the Aztec Empire?  None to support any other conquest prior to the Mexican War?  The Pueblo and previous cliff-dwellers built their fortified complexes just because they liked the views?  There's no evidence that Sand Canyon Pueblo was sacked & burned, or that all those bodies at Crow Creek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre died by accident?

grantmeaname

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2013, 02:53:58 PM »
So?  There is no evidence to support the Spanish conquest of New Spain?
Certainly not what I said, but I'm glad you learned to use google.

Jamesqf

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2013, 10:53:18 AM »
Certainly not what I said, but I'm glad you learned to use google.

Yes, it's really handy when you want to find some actual facts on which to base your opinions.  You should try it sometime :-)

YK-Phil

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2013, 09:39:53 AM »
To sum up the debate...

Bakari

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2013, 10:46:43 AM »
interesting timing...

I was just accused of being "removed from the daily experiences of most blacks in the US" and "a great example of armchair academics distorting REALITY. the author [me] has a lack connection in black communities, and it shows."  Which is of course a rather amusing criticism, considering that I have been Black my entire life, and lived the majority of it in poor, high crime areas.
I was also accused of using radical right-wing conservative arguments (whereas, if you've followed my most indepth debates here, you will find me being accused of being a radical leftwing pink-o commie :P )

The first was written in response to people's response to the Martin Zimmerman thing
http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/07/cops-shooting-unarmed-black-men.html

and the second was written in response to people's response to that post
http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/08/culture-and-race-are-not-interchangeable.html


hybrid

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2013, 10:51:56 AM »
interesting timing...

I was just accused of being "removed from the daily experiences of most blacks in the US" and "a great example of armchair academics distorting REALITY. the author [me] has a lack connection in black communities, and it shows."  Which is of course a rather amusing criticism, considering that I have been Black my entire life, and lived the majority of it in poor, high crime areas.
I was also accused of using radical right-wing conservative arguments (whereas, if you've followed my most indepth debates here, you will find me being accused of being a radical leftwing pink-o commie :P )

The first was written in response to people's response to the Martin Zimmerman thing
http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/07/cops-shooting-unarmed-black-men.html

and the second was written in response to people's response to that post
http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/08/culture-and-race-are-not-interchangeable.html

I'd take it as a compliment....  Says to me you think for yourself.  I've had similar experiences from folks who are hard-core liberal.  When I am not as liberal as them I've been accused of being right-wing.

Jamesqf

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2013, 12:19:46 PM »
Which is of course a rather amusing criticism, considering that I have been Black my entire life...

I never would have suspected that from your picture :-)

Bakari

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2013, 03:39:45 PM »
Which is of course a rather amusing criticism, considering that I have been Black my entire life...

I never would have suspected that from your picture :-)

I can't tell if that's sarcasm!

Jamesqf

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2013, 06:31:19 PM »
I can't tell if that's sarcasm!

If it is, the sarcasm is directed at the question in the larger world.  What exactly makes a person a member of some particular racial/ethnic group?  As for instance, my paternal grandmother was Indian.  By some people's reckoning, that would make me Indian too, despite the blond hair & green eyes.  (I've sometimes wondered if Homer may not have gotten things right, as all the rest of the extended family that I can remember had black hair and at least some of the typical Plains Indian look...)

But as for your picture in the sidebar, it's a straightforward opinion.  When I look at that, I do not see a "black person", any more than I would describe say Colin Powell as "black" if I'd only seen his picture.

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2013, 10:56:18 AM »
I can't tell if that's sarcasm!

If it is, the sarcasm is directed at the question in the larger world.  What exactly makes a person a member of some particular racial/ethnic group?  As for instance, my paternal grandmother was Indian.  By some people's reckoning, that would make me Indian too, despite the blond hair & green eyes.  (I've sometimes wondered if Homer may not have gotten things right, as all the rest of the extended family that I can remember had black hair and at least some of the typical Plains Indian look...)

But as for your picture in the sidebar, it's a straightforward opinion.  When I look at that, I do not see a "black person", any more than I would describe say Colin Powell as "black" if I'd only seen his picture.

Of course he isn't black! He's an octoroon; mulatto at best.*

Race is weird. Go back a hundred and fifty years, and most of my ancestors wouldn't quite make the cut as 'white' in polite WASP society -- even though they're almost all European. I've seen people as pale as me, maybe with slightly wider noses and frizzier hair, declare themselves 'black' and in need of special consideration. Same with a lily-white, blue-eyed full-status 'native' girl I once knew who'd never stepped foot out of the city, and would never go near a reserve. But who am I to argue? Is it racist to pigeon-hole someone into a race they don't want?


*if not everyone can tell, that was in jest to preface my statement that race is weird.

Bakari

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2013, 11:18:24 AM »
Of course he isn't black! He's an octoroon; mulatto at best.*


nonsense!  I can trace my genealogy on both sides of the family all the way back to American slavery.
Granted, I can't trace it back to actual Africa, because those records simply don't exist.

Granted also, its not 100% - my maternal grandmother was Jewish Ukrainian.  But 75% is much better than mulatto!


renbutler

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2013, 12:18:56 PM »
In my experience, if you have to ask whether something is racist, it probably isn't. You'll know racism when you see it. It does exist, among every race, and it's not excusable!

But I think that marginal and downright poor examples of racism really water down the entire notion. If truly non-offensive things are seen as racist, then some will start to see all racism as non-offensive.

Eventually, interbreeding will create a human race with a fairly consistent, medium (sort of Mediterranean) skin tone. But people will find a way to be offended about something else.

Jamesqf

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2013, 12:29:48 PM »
nonsense!  I can trace my genealogy on both sides of the family all the way back to American slavery.

How, absent DNA testing?
Quote
My mother certainly says I am Odysseus' son; but for myself I cannot tell. It's a wise child that knows its own father.
Telemachus to Athena as the Taphian stranger. Homer, Odyssey

 I've long thought genealogists have been living in a fool's paradise when it comes to tracing paternal descent.  And as I said above, I have my own personal suspicions - though unlike Telemachus, I never cared to enquire into the matter when I had the opportunity.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 12:32:08 PM by Jamesqf »

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2013, 12:31:38 PM »

But I think that marginal and downright poor examples of racism really water down the entire notion. If truly non-offensive things are seen as racist, then some will start to see all racism as non-offensive.

agreed, though I think this is even more true for sexism and sexual harassment.

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2013, 09:12:22 PM »
nonsense!  I can trace my genealogy on both sides of the family all the way back to American slavery.

How, absent DNA testing?


 I've long thought genealogists have been living in a fool's paradise when it comes to tracing paternal descent.

Because my grandparents remember their grandparents.
It wasn't that long ago.

wepner

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2013, 11:57:06 PM »

But I think that marginal and downright poor examples of racism really water down the entire notion. If truly non-offensive things are seen as racist, then some will start to see all racism as non-offensive.

agreed, though I think this is even more true for sexism and sexual harassment.


I'm not sure if I'm saying this delicately enough, but is it possible that you feel this way for the same reason white people generally feel like racism is less prevalent in America than black people?

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2013, 12:15:44 AM »

But I think that marginal and downright poor examples of racism really water down the entire notion. If truly non-offensive things are seen as racist, then some will start to see all racism as non-offensive.

agreed, though I think this is even more true for sexism and sexual harassment.


I'm not sure if I'm saying this delicately enough, but is it possible that you feel this way for the same reason white people generally feel like racism is less prevalent in America than black people?

Agreed. I couldn't come up with anything approaching delicacy.

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2013, 12:51:23 AM »
Because my grandparents remember their grandparents.
It wasn't that long ago.

Time is not the question, paternity is.  It's Homer's old question again, as well as the material for many folk songs that are variations on this one: http://www.songlyrics.com/debra-cowan/johnny-be-fair-trad-lyrics/  According to some studies (with DNA testing), as many as 30% of children of married couples weren't fathered by the husband.  That's just human nature, and might even have been more common a couple of generations ago, when a woman who found herself pregnant outside of marriage pretty much had to accept any man who was willing.

As I think I said earlier, I don't actually know, and have no practical way of finding out (and frankly don't give a damn), but this would explain a lot about my parents' marriage that I see in retrospect, as well as how a blond, green-eyed, nordic-looking kid wound up in an extended family of black-haired, brown-eyed, Indian-looking folks.


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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2013, 08:55:55 AM »

But I think that marginal and downright poor examples of racism really water down the entire notion. If truly non-offensive things are seen as racist, then some will start to see all racism as non-offensive.

agreed, though I think this is even more true for sexism and sexual harassment.


I'm not sure if I'm saying this delicately enough, but is it possible that you feel this way for the same reason white people generally feel like racism is less prevalent in America than black people?

It's certainly possible, but given that I am a Black person who thinks racism is less prevalent than both many Black people and many white people, maybe I get at least a tiny bit more credibility...
What I mean in that the things that pass for harassment according to the public service videos put out by government / university / corporations are intended to avoid lawsuits.  Since in reality there is grey area, just to be safe they often go way past grey area into off-white.  But when they make it sound like "that's what she said" is essentially equivalent to a slap on the ass, its hard not to write the entire thing off.
My real answer is too long for a forum comment: http://biodieselhauling.blogspot.com/2013/01/RapeAndFeminismPage1.html
Perhaps my gender means I have no credibility, but I am generally of the opinion that that opinion is the fallacy of ad hominem, and that ideas should be judged on their merit, not on who says them

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2013, 08:58:55 AM »
Because my grandparents remember their grandparents.
It wasn't that long ago.

Time is not the question, paternity is.  It's Homer's old question again, as well as the material for many folk songs that are variations on this one: http://www.songlyrics.com/debra-cowan/johnny-be-fair-trad-lyrics/  According to some studies (with DNA testing), as many as 30% of children of married couples weren't fathered by the husband.  That's just human nature, and might even have been more common a couple of generations ago, when a woman who found herself pregnant outside of marriage pretty much had to accept any man who was willing.

Who said anything about paternity?  The family traces the Maternity line back to American slavery.  Hell, all the good stories (on both sides of the family, in fact) were about the women.  I don't even know the names of the husbands of Lily Lemons or Chaya ((two of) my great great great grandmothers)

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2013, 01:50:46 PM »
Who said anything about paternity?

Err...  You did.

Because my grandparents remember their grandparents.

Now if you want to go back and change grandparents to grandmothers. I could almost agree.  Of course there were always informal adoptions and such.


What I mean in that the things that pass for harassment according to the public service videos put out by government / university / corporations are intended to avoid lawsuits.  Since in reality there is grey area, just to be safe they often go way past grey area into off-white.

Then there's the whole subjectivity thing, in that something I do could be construed as harassment, while the exact same words or actions coming from Joe Cool might be the start of a beautiful relationship.

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Re: Is it racist?
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2013, 03:20:46 PM »
Because my grandparents remember their grandparents.
It wasn't that long ago.

Time is not the question, paternity is.  It's Homer's old question again, as well as the material for many folk songs that are variations on this one: http://www.songlyrics.com/debra-cowan/johnny-be-fair-trad-lyrics/  According to some studies (with DNA testing), as many as 30% of children of married couples weren't fathered by the husband.  That's just human nature, and might even have been more common a couple of generations ago, when a woman who found herself pregnant outside of marriage pretty much had to accept any man who was willing.

Who said anything about paternity?  The family traces the Maternity line back to American slavery.  Hell, all the good stories (on both sides of the family, in fact) were about the women.  I don't even know the names of the husbands of Lily Lemons or Chaya ((two of) my great great great grandmothers)
Than you could very well be mulatto-- or whatever the hell the old-timey racist name for that level of mixing would be, if any of those slave-matrons had had bastard children sired on them by overseers (and lord knows that happened entirely too often!). Not that I'm challenging your self-idenfitication as 'black' by any means. 'tis a very slippery thing, though, this racial business.