Author Topic: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?  (Read 33241 times)

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #150 on: February 24, 2020, 08:31:43 AM »
Racism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Sexism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Environmental protection is pretty bad, and getting worse.
Extreamism is growing I think.

I would be more likely to leave due to the countires acceptance of state sanctioned murder through drone assassinations and the continuing absurdity of the AUMF, than a lean towards authoritarianism.  I mean, I'll be a little more militant about tearing down a dictator when he changes the constitution to give himself absolute power. Until then, eat the rich.

Racism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Sexism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Environmental protection is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
I am not sure that the US has seen more right wing extremism, but the left was pretty riled up in the 50s and 60s, including a number of violent groups. Still definitely getting worse, not better.

Or the news is just getting more sensational and instant.

I personally haven't seen any of these issues in real life. Just on Twitter an online.

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8888
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #151 on: February 24, 2020, 08:36:55 AM »
Racism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Sexism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Environmental protection is pretty bad, and getting worse.
Extreamism is growing I think.

I would be more likely to leave due to the countires acceptance of state sanctioned murder through drone assassinations and the continuing absurdity of the AUMF, than a lean towards authoritarianism.  I mean, I'll be a little more militant about tearing down a dictator when he changes the constitution to give himself absolute power. Until then, eat the rich.

Racism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Sexism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Environmental protection is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
I am not sure that the US has seen more right wing extremism, but the left was pretty riled up in the 50s and 60s, including a number of violent groups. Still definitely getting worse, not better.

Or the news is just getting more sensational and instant.

I personally haven't seen any of these issues in real life. Just on Twitter an online.
Are you at risk of them?  Are you a person of colour, female, LGBTQ+?  Do you live in a nice part of town or next to a toxic hazard site or a polluted river?

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #152 on: February 24, 2020, 09:32:09 AM »
Or the news is just getting more sensational and instant.

I personally haven't seen any of these issues in real life. Just on Twitter an online.

I love this line of reasoning. I've never personally seen anyone get VD from having unprotected sex with a prostitute, therefore it must not be a big deal.

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7461
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #153 on: February 24, 2020, 09:54:24 AM »
The Trump presidency has proven that open, unrepentant corruption works in the United States. The democratic process itself is being undermined such that it may soon be impossible to use that democratic process to remove openly corrupt politicans, at which point we will have no recourse.

Of course we do. It's called revolution. It's happened to plenty of countries and empires throughout history. It's how the USA became a country in the first place. Your despondency is leading you to forget basic facts of human history. Stop that.
What non-democratic means did you have in mind to overthrow the US government?  (Without outside intervention, I assume?)

I didn't have anything in mind, just responding to Norich. Though given the sheer number of guns in this country, I imagine any actual revolution would include violence.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #154 on: February 24, 2020, 10:11:33 AM »
If there’s anyone to blame for Trumpism, it’s Democrats. They’ve been extraordinarily weak for decades at the state and local levels. They don’t vote regularly, and offer excuses/conspiracy theories to justify this behavior. They’ve allowed their institutions such as unions, civic groups, and civil rights organizations to whither, and instead spend their time as social media keyboard warriors. They’ve clustered into big cities, making themselves electorally less relevant. They’ve failed to adequately address conservative accusations that they are Marxists who want to seize your guns and money. We see the culmination of these trends in the looming nomination of Bernie Sanders, a lecturer on the theory of socialism with virtually no commitment to building the party and whose limited appeal was already demonstrated in 2016. He might win 5 or 6 states, but will make 15% of the electorate feel good about their act of futility in the meantime. Democrats are also likely to lose the House this go-round, firmly establishing the US as a one-party state. When this happens, I don’t know if I will be able to take the social media outrage and posturing from Democrats who didn’t get off their a**es.


PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #155 on: February 24, 2020, 10:31:19 AM »
If there’s anyone to blame for Trumpism, it’s Democrats.

If there is anyone to blame for the Nazis, its the Jews Social Democratic Party of Germany. Oh, wait, sorry. That's not how that works at all.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 01:19:15 PM by PDXTabs »

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #156 on: February 24, 2020, 10:42:39 AM »
I do worry about our country but don’t plan to move.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7095
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #157 on: February 24, 2020, 11:16:58 AM »
Democrats are also likely to lose the House this go-round, firmly establishing the US as a one-party state. When this happens, I don’t know if I will be able to take the social media outrage and posturing from Democrats who didn’t get off their a**es.

This theory would hold more water if Trump's candidates In Kentucky and Louisiana didn't lose. And if Virginia didn't flip. And if Ted Cruz didn't barely win in Texas (it was 56-40 in 2012). And then there's Pennsylvania and Michigan and....

But, yeah, California is totally going to vote for Trump.

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #158 on: February 24, 2020, 11:36:01 AM »
Or the news is just getting more sensational and instant.

I personally haven't seen any of these issues in real life. Just on Twitter an online.

I love this line of reasoning. I've never personally seen anyone get VD from having unprotected sex with a prostitute, therefore it must not be a big deal.

It's the exact same line of reasoning that you're using: anecdote and opinion. No facts were supplied for any of the incredibly bold statements. Racism is worse now compared to when? 4 years ago? 8 years ago? Are we really able to even have the resolution on a statement like that? What are we using to measure? Our gut feeling?

Have you started to see racism springing up around you? I'm OK with you saying that you have, and I'll believe you. But using social media and emotional news as a measure of actual events on the ground may lead you astray...

I personally have seen none of it in my daily life. It's anecdotal, but it's reliable to my experience. Divergent political opinions, I have seen...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 11:38:56 AM by StashingAway »

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #159 on: February 24, 2020, 11:36:14 AM »
Racism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Sexism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Environmental protection is pretty bad, and getting worse.
Extreamism is growing I think.

I would be more likely to leave due to the countires acceptance of state sanctioned murder through drone assassinations and the continuing absurdity of the AUMF, than a lean towards authoritarianism.  I mean, I'll be a little more militant about tearing down a dictator when he changes the constitution to give himself absolute power. Until then, eat the rich.

Racism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Sexism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Environmental protection is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
I am not sure that the US has seen more right wing extremism, but the left was pretty riled up in the 50s and 60s, including a number of violent groups. Still definitely getting worse, not better.

Or the news is just getting more sensational and instant.

I personally haven't seen any of these issues in real life. Just on Twitter an online.
Are you at risk of them?  Are you a person of colour, female, LGBTQ+?  Do you live in a nice part of town or next to a toxic hazard site or a polluted river?

(disclosure: I am on the privileged side of every dividing line named here)

I think this gets at the heart of the problem. Many of us have our pet issue. Few of us have the bandwidth or line-of-sight to consider the totality of issues.

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #160 on: February 24, 2020, 11:41:46 AM »
Racism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Sexism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Environmental protection is pretty bad, and getting worse.
Extreamism is growing I think.

I would be more likely to leave due to the countires acceptance of state sanctioned murder through drone assassinations and the continuing absurdity of the AUMF, than a lean towards authoritarianism.  I mean, I'll be a little more militant about tearing down a dictator when he changes the constitution to give himself absolute power. Until then, eat the rich.

Racism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Sexism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Environmental protection is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
I am not sure that the US has seen more right wing extremism, but the left was pretty riled up in the 50s and 60s, including a number of violent groups. Still definitely getting worse, not better.

Or the news is just getting more sensational and instant.

I personally haven't seen any of these issues in real life. Just on Twitter an online.
Are you at risk of them?  Are you a person of colour, female, LGBTQ+?  Do you live in a nice part of town or next to a toxic hazard site or a polluted river?

I'm not at "risk" for any of them (at risk for being LGBTQ+ sounds funny, lol). But besides- are you? Can you really say that any of these issues are worse than before on a timescale that's measurable?

Are you really suggesting that LGBTQ+ and females haven't seen a huge surgance in equability and recognition in the last few years? What the hell was MeToo all about? And the Trans Bathroom debate? Those things would have been absurd to hear discussed on a national scale 15 or 20 years ago.

That's different from saying that it can't get better. Of course it can. And of course there are fluctuations. But I highly doubt that one could use a few year's worth of data to map out a trajectory of civility worth anything.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 11:47:25 AM by StashingAway »

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8888
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #161 on: February 24, 2020, 11:46:51 AM »
Racism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Sexism is pretty bad, but it's better than it was.
Environmental protection is pretty bad, and getting worse.
Extreamism is growing I think.

I would be more likely to leave due to the countires acceptance of state sanctioned murder through drone assassinations and the continuing absurdity of the AUMF, than a lean towards authoritarianism.  I mean, I'll be a little more militant about tearing down a dictator when he changes the constitution to give himself absolute power. Until then, eat the rich.

Racism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Sexism is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
Environmental protection is better than some points of time, but getting worse, not better.
I am not sure that the US has seen more right wing extremism, but the left was pretty riled up in the 50s and 60s, including a number of violent groups. Still definitely getting worse, not better.

Or the news is just getting more sensational and instant.

I personally haven't seen any of these issues in real life. Just on Twitter an online.
Are you at risk of them?  Are you a person of colour, female, LGBTQ+?  Do you live in a nice part of town or next to a toxic hazard site or a polluted river?

Nope. Are you? Can you really say that any of these issues are worse than before on a timescale that's measurable?
Since you ask, I currently meet two of those criteria and have come across significant problems because of them in the past.  My personal situation (FIREd and in a position to say FU to just about anyone) insulates me from them now.  Just as you have been insulated from them all of your life. 

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #162 on: February 24, 2020, 11:48:15 AM »
Since you ask, I currently meet two of those criteria and have come across significant problems because of them in the past.  My personal situation (FIREd and in a position to say FU to just about anyone) insulates me from them now.  Just as you have been insulated from them all of your life.

I edited my post to be more complete. In what ways is your experience worse now than it would have been 20 years ago? Genuine question

OzzieandHarriet

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1194

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8888
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #164 on: February 24, 2020, 12:02:38 PM »
Since you ask, I currently meet two of those criteria and have come across significant problems because of them in the past.  My personal situation (FIREd and in a position to say FU to just about anyone) insulates me from them now.  Just as you have been insulated from them all of your life.

I edited my post to be more complete. In what ways is your experience worse now than it would have been 20 years ago? Genuine question
I thought I explained: my personal circumstances have changed from 20 years ago which means that there is no relevance to the question as there is no benchmark for comparison.  If you want to know how things have changed for people who meet those criteria you either need an individual whose baseline situation is unchanged or you need to look for population-scale data.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #165 on: February 24, 2020, 12:28:02 PM »
Racism is worse now compared to when? 4 years ago? 8 years ago? Are we really able to even have the resolution on a statement like that? What are we using to measure? Our gut feeling?

If only there was an organization or two that focused on issues like that. Oh wait, there are. As far as I'm concerned you can use lawsuits filed by the ACLU and SPLC which are related to voting rights and due process issues as a proxy, of course that wouldn't show you the increase in hate crimes during the Trump administration.

EDITed to add - further reading
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 12:31:28 PM by PDXTabs »

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #166 on: February 24, 2020, 12:37:59 PM »
Since you ask, I currently meet two of those criteria and have come across significant problems because of them in the past.  My personal situation (FIREd and in a position to say FU to just about anyone) insulates me from them now.  Just as you have been insulated from them all of your life.

I edited my post to be more complete. In what ways is your experience worse now than it would have been 20 years ago? Genuine question
I thought I explained: my personal circumstances have changed from 20 years ago which means that there is no relevance to the question as there is no benchmark for comparison.  If you want to know how things have changed for people who meet those criteria you either need an individual whose baseline situation is unchanged or you need to look for population-scale data.

Ah, I didn't read carefully enough to what you wrote. I agree with the bolded statement, and in fact it's what I was trying to emphasize as well. From my limited reading (relatively little, but not completely uninformed, so I'm very open to changing my mind), the population-scale data doesn't show what the social media world is signaling,

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #167 on: February 24, 2020, 12:49:26 PM »
Racism is worse now compared to when? 4 years ago? 8 years ago? Are we really able to even have the resolution on a statement like that? What are we using to measure? Our gut feeling?

If only there was an organization or two that focused on issues like that. Oh wait, there are. As far as I'm concerned you can use lawsuits filed by the ACLU and SPLC which are related to voting rights and due process issues as a proxy, of course that wouldn't show you the increase in hate crimes during the Trump administration.

EDITed to add - further reading

OK, I'll buy some of that. I suppose I'm taking a longer term look at things. Social movements have ebbs and flows. Every year won't be exactly better than the least. Fluctuations are expected- even just because randomness exists. As mustachians, this is similar to the 4% withdraw rule and index funds in the stock market. We have a few down years, and a few good ones. Sometimes that happens for an uncomfortable amount of time. Nothing you have shown me has indicated a permanent decline in humanity in the US; it's appears to be flavor of the moment. Granted, this isn't' something to take lightly with people's lives at stake, but it's also expected. It gives us reason to strive for better without being downtrodden by daily negative events.

The overall trajectory seems to be marching ever forward, despite a year spent on social media feeling like 10 years from a history book.  When you have a constant barrage of every single negative event happening, you can get overwhelmed. In WW2, people didn't know what was happening overseas for months or years, not hours! Surely their lives were just as troublesome, but we feel that now we are in a struggle for good and evil like no generation before if you believe the hype...

Edit: Your hate crime article is riddled with interpretations problems, though. Basic statistics will tell you that if there are more latinos in the US than 16 years ago, the # of latino hate crimes will go up, all else being equal. And there are more latinos per capita in the US than there were 16 years ago. That alone could explain the difference (along with the fact that hate crimes may be reported with more nuance than they used to be, etc). If anything, the article just proves my point more.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 12:53:52 PM by StashingAway »

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #168 on: February 24, 2020, 12:54:01 PM »
If there’s anyone to blame for Trumpism, it’s Democrats.

If there is anyone to blame for the Nazis, its the Jews. Oh, wait, sorry. That's not how that works at all.
Just to be clear: you're comparing US Dems in 2020 to Jews under Nazi Germany in the 1940s? 

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #169 on: February 24, 2020, 01:18:29 PM »
If there’s anyone to blame for Trumpism, it’s Democrats.

If there is anyone to blame for the Nazis, its the Jews. Oh, wait, sorry. That's not how that works at all.
Just to be clear: you're comparing US Dems in 2020 to Jews under Nazi Germany in the 1940s?

After further reflection I think that you are right. Blaming the democrats for Trumpism is like blaming the Social Democratic Party of Germany for Nazism. Which is to say, totally bonkers.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 01:20:48 PM by PDXTabs »

js82

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #170 on: February 24, 2020, 05:02:45 PM »
I'm not so much concerned about Trump's policies than the fact he has normalized what should be unacceptable behavior.

I partially agree, but I think his policies will do plenty of damage too - it's just that the damage will unfold over years if not decades.  This timeframe applies to both policy and behavior.

-Gutting the EPA?  Long-run Damage.
-Tax cuts, not paid for so the deficit explodes, leaving future generations to deal with it?  Long-run damage.
-Trying to reduce social safety nets?  Long-run damage(wait for the next recession...)
-Degradation of our political discourse?  Long-run Damage.
-Degradation of norms? (McConnell already started some of this during the Obama administration)?  Long-run Damage.
-In a hypothetical 2nd term: Replacing RBG with a right-wing supreme court justice?  Long-run damage.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20789
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #171 on: February 24, 2020, 05:23:59 PM »
I'm not so much concerned about Trump's policies than the fact he has normalized what should be unacceptable behavior.

I partially agree, but I think his policies will do plenty of damage too - it's just that the damage will unfold over years if not decades.  This timeframe applies to both policy and behavior.

-Gutting the EPA?  Long-run Damage.
-Tax cuts, not paid for so the deficit explodes, leaving future generations to deal with it?  Long-run damage.
-Trying to reduce social safety nets?  Long-run damage(wait for the next recession...)
-Degradation of our political discourse?  Long-run Damage.
-Degradation of norms? (McConnell already started some of this during the Obama administration)?  Long-run Damage.
-In a hypothetical 2nd term: Replacing RBG with a right-wing supreme court justice?  Long-run damage.

And you can add - alienating foreign allies? short, medium and long-term damage.

I'm sure there are more.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7349
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #172 on: February 24, 2020, 05:49:54 PM »
I'm not so much concerned about Trump's policies than the fact he has normalized what should be unacceptable behavior.

I partially agree, but I think his policies will do plenty of damage too - it's just that the damage will unfold over years if not decades.  This timeframe applies to both policy and behavior.

-Gutting the EPA?  Long-run Damage.
-Tax cuts, not paid for so the deficit explodes, leaving future generations to deal with it?  Long-run damage.
-Trying to reduce social safety nets?  Long-run damage(wait for the next recession...)
-Degradation of our political discourse?  Long-run Damage.
-Degradation of norms? (McConnell already started some of this during the Obama administration)?  Long-run Damage.
-In a hypothetical 2nd term: Replacing RBG with a right-wing supreme court justice?  Long-run damage.

And you can add - alienating foreign allies? short, medium and long-term damage.

I'm sure there are more.

Stripping funding from the CDC: at least short-term damage (Coronavirus, anyone?).

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6731
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #173 on: February 24, 2020, 08:51:06 PM »
If there’s anyone to blame for Trumpism, it’s Democrats.

If there is anyone to blame for the Nazis, its the Jews. Oh, wait, sorry. That's not how that works at all.
Just to be clear: you're comparing US Dems in 2020 to Jews under Nazi Germany in the 1940s?

After further reflection I think that you are right. Blaming the democrats for Trumpism is like blaming the Social Democratic Party of Germany for Nazism. Which is to say, totally bonkers.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Reductio-ad-Hitlerum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #174 on: February 24, 2020, 09:20:52 PM »
If there’s anyone to blame for Trumpism, it’s Democrats.

If there is anyone to blame for the Nazis, its the Jews. Oh, wait, sorry. That's not how that works at all.
Just to be clear: you're comparing US Dems in 2020 to Jews under Nazi Germany in the 1940s?

After further reflection I think that you are right. Blaming the democrats for Trumpism is like blaming the Social Democratic Party of Germany for Nazism. Which is to say, totally bonkers.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Reductio-ad-Hitlerum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I think you made some pretty good points in that original post.  The Dems are at least in part responsible for Trump, as long as it is assumed that democracy was still more or less functioning at the time.  This is where the baby-bathwater problem exists for the Dems.  Was Trump's win a learning opportunity for the Dems, or was it a failure of the democratic system?  The latter is a very cynical approach.  I don't think that painting Trump as a tyrant and the GOP as solely sycophants is a good strategy, especially for the middle looking for better candidates.  It might be in part true, in the same way that the Marxist allegation of Dems is partly true.  The difference is that the right wing(excepting Trump) seems to be willing to at least acknowledge their "shadow", whereas the left wing is engaging in old school puritanism and pretending there is no pathology on their side.  I think this is what's scaring off voters from the left.  Many people that voted for Trump are not Trump supporters and they're being attributed guilt that they don't deserve. 

The left needs to establish some boundaries for their revolution if they want the participation of the average voter.  The siren song of inclusion, social justice and socialism isn't recursive enough and history has examples of this mindset taking governments down very dark and ideological one-way roads.  Voters need to see a lesson learned and they haven't seen it yet.

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #176 on: February 24, 2020, 10:33:21 PM »
Stripping funding from the CDC: at least short-term damage (Coronavirus, anyone?).

To quote political historian Heather Cox Richardson:

In May 2018, under then-National Security Advisor John Bolton, the administration got rid of the official in charge of overseeing a U.S. response to a pandemic and disbanded the global health security team. Today Acting Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Ken Cuccinelli went on Twitter to ask people if they, too, were having trouble accessing the coronavirus map maintained by Johns Hopkins University. "Has the Johns Hopkins map of the coronavirus stopped working for other people, or just me?" Cuccinelli tweeted. "I just tried again, and it looks like Johns Hopkins put the information behind a membership wall of some kind. Seems like bad timing to stop helping the world with this (previously) useful resource. Here's hoping it goes back up soon."

Newspaper columnist Max Burbank shared the popular outrage: “Thanks for inspiring confidence. Shouldn't YOU GUYS have a map of this? Shouldn't the CDC? You know who they are, right? Isn't there anyone in charge of response to this? Or did someone colossally stupid eliminate that position?” American historian L. D. Burnett tweeted: “there is literally an ENTIRE FEDERAL AGENCY working for you that you could ask to provide you and all Americans with the latest information on the Coronavirus.” Health policy professor Howard Forman begged: “PLEASE can someone tell me that this is a parody account and that our Executive branch has a CLUE of what is going on? PLEASE!?”
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 10:39:55 PM by PDXTabs »

Brother Esau

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 648
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #177 on: February 25, 2020, 05:22:50 AM »
If there’s anyone to blame for Trumpism, it’s Democrats.

If there is anyone to blame for the Nazis, its the Jews. Oh, wait, sorry. That's not how that works at all.
Just to be clear: you're comparing US Dems in 2020 to Jews under Nazi Germany in the 1940s?

After further reflection I think that you are right. Blaming the democrats for Trumpism is like blaming the Social Democratic Party of Germany for Nazism. Which is to say, totally bonkers.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Reductio-ad-Hitlerum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I think you made some pretty good points in that original post.  The Dems are at least in part responsible for Trump, as long as it is assumed that democracy was still more or less functioning at the time.  This is where the baby-bathwater problem exists for the Dems.  Was Trump's win a learning opportunity for the Dems, or was it a failure of the democratic system?  The latter is a very cynical approach.  I don't think that painting Trump as a tyrant and the GOP as solely sycophants is a good strategy, especially for the middle looking for better candidates.  It might be in part true, in the same way that the Marxist allegation of Dems is partly true.  The difference is that the right wing(excepting Trump) seems to be willing to at least acknowledge their "shadow", whereas the left wing is engaging in old school puritanism and pretending there is no pathology on their side.  I think this is what's scaring off voters from the left.  Many people that voted for Trump are not Trump supporters and they're being attributed guilt that they don't deserve. 

The left needs to establish some boundaries for their revolution if they want the participation of the average voter.  The siren song of inclusion, social justice and socialism isn't recursive enough and history has examples of this mindset taking governments down very dark and ideological one-way roads.  Voters need to see a lesson learned and they haven't seen it yet.

Well said @Wrenchturner . Trump is a complete buffoon, no doubt, but people need to realize that many votes for him are not pro-Trump but anti-Dems.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2924
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #178 on: February 25, 2020, 06:50:03 AM »
If there’s anyone to blame for Trumpism, it’s Democrats.

If there is anyone to blame for the Nazis, its the Jews. Oh, wait, sorry. That's not how that works at all.
Just to be clear: you're comparing US Dems in 2020 to Jews under Nazi Germany in the 1940s?
Just to be clear, Trumpism predates Trump himself. It didn't come about in 2020.
http://web.eecs.umich.edu/~kuipers/opinions/Trumpism.html

There are some actual good research articles out there (some behind paywalls). I will say the comment about blaming it on Dems is not ironically a page right out of the Trumpism "handbook." It has nothing to do with Dems. It goes way deeper than Dems. 

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #179 on: February 25, 2020, 08:35:39 AM »
The left needs to establish some boundaries for their revolution if they want the participation of the average voter.  The siren song of inclusion, social justice and socialism isn't recursive enough and history has examples of this mindset taking governments down very dark and ideological one-way roads.

There are almost equally abundant examples of countries actually doing well based on the siren song of inclusion, social justice etc. For every Venezuela you can raise - I think we can raise a Denmark, isn't it? The place you are from has far more socialist tendencies that all of your fellow citizens reap the rewards of (e.g. longer, healthier lives etc). On the other side, there are at least equally abundant (if not more) examples of right-wing siren song destroying countries.

Any ideology will do poorly in real world. As long as there are moderating influences that can realistically constrain the ideologues, I think it will do okay in real world. e.g. I think if the libertarians controlling financial polity of the American Right actually behaved in the constrained manner they did before the 80's - US will be in a much better shape today. The fact that the left wing has not shown that same degree of extremism (i.e. nationalize everything) makes them a much better choice by any objective parameters you can set.

Most voters who object to the present day American "left" do so because they *are* trumpism-leaning by active choice. They either have a strong right wing economic policy preferences, or are not voters driven by economic factors - but cultural ones like gun rights or abortion etc.

I personally see the waffling democrats as too mealy mouthed and too concerned about pleasing everyone. In my opinion, they need to show a lot more passion about actual things that impact real people - like healthcare, wages, fighting the freeloading billionaire class - etc.

If enough voters are so right wing that they would much rather prefer a more right-wing policy preferences for cultural/ideological reasons - then the right will prevail in the polls. This is unfortunate given the nature of the right-wing politics in US today. However, the alternative, or trying to push through a Bloomberg or someone like him is far worse as an alternative (I say this despite being aware that Bloomberg, however much you dislike his authoritarian style, actually treats his workers exceptionally well when it comes to pay and benefits. Their rank and file workers probably have the best healthcare plan available in corporate America - as per feedback I have heard from actual employees).

Obama pushed through obamacare (a positive improvement, just not a sufficient one) despite being fully aware of the political costs. https://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/government-shutdown-barack-obama-obamacare-aca-097687.

I consider that to be leadership. Do what's objectively right (as measured in actual lives saved, or wealth created), despite whatever political costs you need to pay. We need some more of that from the "left".

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #180 on: February 25, 2020, 10:06:41 AM »
If only Democrats are willing to pass necessary policies (bearing the political costs of them), then Democrats will not win power very often.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #181 on: February 25, 2020, 10:34:13 AM »
If only Democrats are willing to pass necessary policies (bearing the political costs of them), then Democrats will not win power very often.

Yep, quite possible!!

And it is a crappy situation when/if that does happen (it's not crappy that "democrats" don't come to power - but that a political party is punished for doing the objectively, provably right things). I'm optimistic, however, that in the long term doing the right thing pays off. Obama took the political hit for Obamacare - but it is now a winning issue for Democrats precisely because they did the right thing back then and took the political hit.

The cost of doing so is that Trumpism will likely continue to undermine democratic norms, pack the court, and make life generally difficult for people - for everyone in general but more so for people in more unfortunate locations in the US like the rural middle of the country (think of all the people who lacked insurance because their states did not expand medicaid). I don't see any realistic way to avoid this, however!! People won't change their minds, and votes, unless they are faced with real consequences for a much longer time than they have been exposed to so far.

Think of the alternatives!!

The "left" can continue to waffle, like they always do. The right will continue to pack the courts (like Nixon did 50 years ago, or McConnel did recently) by hook or by crook. Left can win fractured power (e.g. the presidency - but not with full control over both houses) at times, but won't be able to enact any real changes. Even after all these, the accountability remains unclear. The left will get the blame just as much as the right - so nobody changes their minds, billionaires continue to buy the policies they prefer, and inequality and other general malaise continues to get worse.

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #182 on: February 25, 2020, 10:44:01 AM »
There are almost equally abundant examples of countries actually doing well based on the siren song of inclusion, social justice etc. For every Venezuela you can raise - I think we can raise a Denmark, isn't it? The place you are from has far more socialist tendencies that all of your fellow citizens reap the rewards of (e.g. longer, healthier lives etc). On the other side, there are at least equally abundant (if not more) examples of right-wing siren song destroying countries.

Denmark is a relatively homogeneous country that is hostile to refugees (both in acceptance and assimilation) with socialist programs built on oil money and with a population smaller than Maryland.

But similar comparisons can be made for Venezuela. The US is unique. We are big in landmass, population and cultural variety compared to most other countries. I doubt we could replicate successful results from small socialist countries.

But I don't see that you responded to the sentiment of what Wrenchturner was saying. You've seemingly missed the one single point that he was trying to present: Many Trump voters are not pro-Trump, they are anti-Democrat. Make of that what you will; I suspect this in-one-ear-out-the-other treatment of the cry of the average voter will lead to four more years of Trump. It's not really asking that you agree with them, just that you give some signal that you hear them.

Fishindude

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3075
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #183 on: February 25, 2020, 10:44:54 AM »
Has anyone that has threatened to leave the US because of Trump done so yet?
I certainly wish a few of the Hollywood celebs that preach this stuff would leave.

RFAAOATB

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 654
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #184 on: February 25, 2020, 10:55:24 AM »
Has anyone that has threatened to leave the US because of Trump done so yet?
I certainly wish a few of the Hollywood celebs that preach this stuff would leave.

Indeed, as someone who is getting more conservative the higher my net worth gets, I fully support all the worried liberals to try and find happiness somewhere else.

I wonder why celebrities would risk making a stand.  Yeah they probably have enough money and income to live well, but why potentially alienate half your fan base?  Even if Michael Jordan never actually said it, Republicans buy shoes too.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7349
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #185 on: February 25, 2020, 10:57:09 AM »
Has anyone that has threatened to leave the US because of Trump done so yet?
I certainly wish a few of the Hollywood celebs that preach this stuff would leave.

Indeed, as someone who is getting more conservative the higher my net worth gets, I fully support all the worried liberals to try and find happiness somewhere else.

I wonder why celebrities would risk making a stand.  Yeah they probably have enough money and income to live well, but why potentially alienate half your fan base?  Even if Michael Jordan never actually said it, Republicans buy shoes too.

Maybe because they have morals they care about?

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #186 on: February 25, 2020, 11:16:57 AM »
But I don't see that you responded to the sentiment of what Wrenchturner was saying. You've seemingly missed the one single point that he was trying to present: Many Trump voters are not pro-Trump, they are anti-Democrat. Make of that what you will; I suspect this in-one-ear-out-the-other treatment of the cry of the average voter will lead to four more years of Trump. It's not really asking that you agree with them, just that you give some signal that you hear them.

Can you please elaborate what kind of signalling is appropriate and called for?

I sincerely don't understand and want to know. To me it seems that the left, today, care more for average guy than the right. So the listening issue seems to apply more to the right as far as economic issues go. Is it more about listening on the cultural issues?

BDWW

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 733
  • Location: MT
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #187 on: February 25, 2020, 11:33:26 AM »
But I don't see that you responded to the sentiment of what Wrenchturner was saying. You've seemingly missed the one single point that he was trying to present: Many Trump voters are not pro-Trump, they are anti-Democrat. Make of that what you will; I suspect this in-one-ear-out-the-other treatment of the cry of the average voter will lead to four more years of Trump. It's not really asking that you agree with them, just that you give some signal that you hear them.

Can you please elaborate what kind of signalling is appropriate and called for?

I sincerely don't understand and want to know. To me it seems that the left, today, care more for average guy than the right. So the listening issue seems to apply more to the right as far as economic issues go. Is it more about listening on the cultural issues?

Perhaps the left does care more(who knows their hearts), but their messaging is terrible. "Learn to code", "Deplorables", etc. Were you not paying attention when Hillary lost previously blue states based on her not "caring" about the working class there?

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #188 on: February 25, 2020, 11:40:41 AM »
But I don't see that you responded to the sentiment of what Wrenchturner was saying. You've seemingly missed the one single point that he was trying to present: Many Trump voters are not pro-Trump, they are anti-Democrat. Make of that what you will; I suspect this in-one-ear-out-the-other treatment of the cry of the average voter will lead to four more years of Trump. It's not really asking that you agree with them, just that you give some signal that you hear them.

Can you please elaborate what kind of signalling is appropriate and called for?

I sincerely don't understand and want to know. To me it seems that the left, today, care more for average guy than the right. So the listening issue seems to apply more to the right as far as economic issues go. Is it more about listening on the cultural issues?

Perhaps the left does care more(who knows their hearts), but their messaging is terrible. "Learn to code", "Deplorables", etc. Were you not paying attention when Hillary lost previously blue states based on her not "caring" about the working class there?

Hillary is exactly the kind of "opportunistic", "moderate" candidate that I argued up-thread should no longer be selected by the "left".

I never got the sense that she actually cared about the everyone else, and seemed quite greedy and in it for herself (to a much lesser degree than Trump, but still - that comparison is no excuse).

And you don't need to peek in "their hearts" - just look at the policies. Which policies - "left wing" or right wing - will save more american lives in today's america and cause more sustainable and equitable economic activities? That's all!! No open heart surgery is necessary!!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 11:43:43 AM by ctuser1 »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23215
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #189 on: February 25, 2020, 11:50:03 AM »
Perhaps the left does care more(who knows their hearts), but their messaging is terrible. "Learn to code", "Deplorables", etc. Were you not paying attention when Hillary lost previously blue states based on her not "caring" about the working class there?

When taken in context, which parts of Clinton's 'deplorables' speech do you disagree with?

Quote
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.  Right?
 They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.

But the "other" basket – the other basket – and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that "other" basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but — he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

I agree that Democrats lost the messaging war on this one . . . but largely because Republicans flat out lied by taking what was said radically out of context.

Michael in ABQ

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2658
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #190 on: February 25, 2020, 11:55:23 AM »
Perhaps the left does care more(who knows their hearts), but their messaging is terrible. "Learn to code", "Deplorables", etc. Were you not paying attention when Hillary lost previously blue states based on her not "caring" about the working class there?

When taken in context, which parts of Clinton's 'deplorables' speech do you disagree with?

Quote
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.  Right?
 They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.

But the "other" basket – the other basket – and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that "other" basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but — he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

I agree that Democrats lost the messaging war on this one . . . but largely because Republicans flat out lied by taking what was said radically out of context.

She said half his supporters are racist, sexist, homophobic, no-good-evil-bad-people. What is there to take out of context?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23215
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #191 on: February 25, 2020, 12:29:18 PM »
Perhaps the left does care more(who knows their hearts), but their messaging is terrible. "Learn to code", "Deplorables", etc. Were you not paying attention when Hillary lost previously blue states based on her not "caring" about the working class there?

When taken in context, which parts of Clinton's 'deplorables' speech do you disagree with?

Quote
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.  Right?
 They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.

But the "other" basket – the other basket – and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that "other" basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but — he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

I agree that Democrats lost the messaging war on this one . . . but largely because Republicans flat out lied by taking what was said radically out of context.

She said half his supporters are racist, sexist, homophobic, no-good-evil-bad-people. What is there to take out of context?

She did say the first half of what you posted . . . but not the second.  She also admitted her mistake and apologized for saying 'half' the next day:
“Last night I was ‘grossly generalistic,’ and that’s never a good idea. I regret saying ‘half’ — that was wrong” - https://time.com/4486601/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-basket-of-deplorables-half/

It sounds like you agree with Clinton that she should not have said 'half'.


But do you disagree that there are a large number of Trump supporters who are racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic?

"The most important finding of the analysis, however, is that racism—regardless of how it was measured—appears to have been an important motive in voting for Trump. As such, this is not a new finding because we know that, indeed, in 2008 Barack Obama suffered from a lack of support among racist voters (LewisBeck, Tien, and Nadeau 2010). The 2016 campaign, however, demonstrated that the effect of racism is not only present when voters have a choice among candidates with different ethnic backgrounds. The ideological positions and the rhetoric of the candidate clearly matter as well. In this specific election, negative attitudes toward ethnic minorities and immigrants swayed independents and some Democrats to opt for candidate Trump, thereby considerably strengthening his electoral-support base." - https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/537A8ABA46783791BFF4E2E36B90C0BE/S1049096518000367a.pdf/explaining_the_trump_vote_the_effect_of_racist_resentment_and_antiimmigrant_sentiments.pdf

58% of Trump supporters hold a somewhat or very unfavorable view of Muslims.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-muslims-idUSKCN0ZV20C

"The 2016 campaign witnessed a dramatic polarization in the vote choices of whites based on education. In this article, we have demonstrated that very little of this gap can be explained by the economic difficulties faced by less educated whites. Rather, most of the divide appears to be associated with sexism and denial of racism, especially among whites without college degrees. Attitudes on race and gender were powerful forces in structuring the 2016 presidential vote, even after controlling for partisanship and ideology. Of course, it would be misguided to seek an understanding of Trump's success in the 2016 presidential election through any single lens. Yet in a campaign that was marked by exceptionally explicit rhetoric on race and gender, it is perhaps unsurprising to find that voters’ attitudes on race and sex were so strongly associated with their vote choices. Indeed, our findings are consistent with those unearthed by Michael Tesler and John Sides using other data sources to study these relationships in the 2016 election.26
How might have racism and sexism mattered for affecting the final outcome? One way to approach this question is to consider how the vote might have differed if whites without college degrees had the same average levels on the racism denial and hostile sexism scales as whites with college degrees. If we make such an adjustment in our data, we find that Trump's total two‐party vote share would have declined by two points. In other words, if non‐college‐educated whites became somewhat more progressive in their attitudes toward racism and sexism so that they matched those of college educated whites, Clinton would have won the popular vote by 4 points instead of two points. Given the narrowness with which Clinton lost states such as Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Florida, such a shift could have had a dramatic effect in terms of the Electoral College outcome.

Whether the 2016 election will simply be an aberration or the beginning of a trend remains to be seen. However, there is reason to think that Trump's strategy of using explicitly racist and sexist appeals to win over white voters may be followed by candidates in future elections. After all, Valentino, Neuner, and Vandenborek show that there is no longer a price to be paid by politicians who make such explicit appeals.27 Explicit racist and sexist appeals appeared to cost Trump some votes from more educated whites, but it may have won him even more support among whites with less education. If Republicans see little prospect of winning over racial or ethnic minorities in the near future, they have two choices—moderate their appeals in order to restore their advantage among more educated white voters (even if it costs them some votes among less educated whites) or repeat the Trump strategy to maximize their support among less educated whites (even at the expense of winning large margins among college‐educated whites). As the norms governing political rhetoric appear to have largely been shattered in 2016, the latter strategy is at least as plausible as the former, and that may have significant consequences for the stability of American democracy." - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/polq.12737

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2924
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #192 on: February 25, 2020, 12:53:45 PM »
Perhaps the left does care more(who knows their hearts), but their messaging is terrible. "Learn to code", "Deplorables", etc. Were you not paying attention when Hillary lost previously blue states based on her not "caring" about the working class there?

When taken in context, which parts of Clinton's 'deplorables' speech do you disagree with?

Quote
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.  Right?
 They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.

But the "other" basket – the other basket – and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that "other" basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but — he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

I agree that Democrats lost the messaging war on this one . . . but largely because Republicans flat out lied by taking what was said radically out of context.

She said half his supporters are racist, sexist, homophobic, no-good-evil-bad-people. What is there to take out of context?

Because it keeps getting brought up as some core turning point for voters. That's not why people picked Trump over Hillary. It might be a plausible influence if Trump himself wasn't exponentially worse in his rhetoric. It's like saying Hillary said the word "poo" and made people want to vote for the guy who says "shit" all day long because they were offended by her poo statement.

It's also false that Hillary didn't care about your average blue collar worker. The issue was that Trump played on their appeal to emotion. Folks who lost manufacturing jobs were told it was shipped overseas to China by the Dems because of bad trade deals. Hillary understood that the majority of jobs were lost to automation, continuing a trend that began decades ago, and offered viable solutions like skilled training programs, job placement and financial aid to help. Unfortunately that's not what many of them chose to or wanted to believe. They felt entitled to another manufacturing job. Trump promised them that. Of course manufacturing jobs haven't really increase appreciably and the trade war has had a significant negative impact on cost and in many instances caused job losses, bankruptcies, etc.

Ultimately "learn to code," call it terrible if you will, was a much better and more viable plan than "let's start a trade war because you are entitled to have your manufacturing job back."  It doesn't mean Hillary didn't care. It just meant people weren't understanding of the true reason why they were in their current predicament. And Republicans exploited that by playing into their confirmation bias. It was a good play on their part quite honestly.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3798
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #193 on: February 25, 2020, 03:22:10 PM »
But I don't see that you responded to the sentiment of what Wrenchturner was saying. You've seemingly missed the one single point that he was trying to present: Many Trump voters are not pro-Trump, they are anti-Democrat. Make of that what you will; I suspect this in-one-ear-out-the-other treatment of the cry of the average voter will lead to four more years of Trump. It's not really asking that you agree with them, just that you give some signal that you hear them.

Can you please elaborate what kind of signalling is appropriate and called for?

I sincerely don't understand and want to know. To me it seems that the left, today, care more for average guy than the right. So the listening issue seems to apply more to the right as far as economic issues go. Is it more about listening on the cultural issues?

As a left-leaning independent, I will take a crack at this.  Yes, it's about cultural issues.  People do not, as a general rule, vote based on policy or pure self-interest (in the sense that, e.g., an economist would identify it).  They vote on tribalistic emotion and signals related to their group identity (oftentimes later rationalizing to themselves that they are actually voting b/c they support a particular policy). And the easiest trigger for group identity is a clear signal of what one is not. 

The stronger and more extreme the rhetorical signals sent by e.g., candidates for office, the more intense the tribalizing emotions become; that is the more you remind people of these tribal differences, the more negative their emotions become about the 'out' tribe.   For example (and forgive me if I get the specific details slightly wrong), research has demonstrated that residents of a community will become more conservative and anti-immigrant in their responses to questions about immigration policy if they are exposed to people speaking a foreign language on e.g., a public bus. Not exposed to crime caused by immigrants, not interacting with immigrants, not seeing any personal negative effects of having immigrants around.  Just hearing immigrants speak. 

A lot of liberals seem to NOT understand this basic tribalistic impulse, and they tend to play right into it by constantly discussing topics in ways that highlight the very features that separate groups into specialized subgroups who need (metaphorically speaking) care and attention from government and society (e.g., immigrants, LGBTQ, victims of police shootings, victims of predatory student loan lenders, mothers without access to daycare, etc etc etc). 

Let me point out, I'm not arguing that those groups don't need any POLICY attention in a just society, or that Dems shouldn't be concerned about them. Just that the way they TALK about them (which the right calls 'identity politics') IS actually damaging to Dem candidates' electoral prospects b/c it constantly reminds everyone of differences in our society, rather than commonalities.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 09:19:02 PM by wenchsenior »

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #194 on: February 25, 2020, 03:48:53 PM »
But I don't see that you responded to the sentiment of what Wrenchturner was saying. You've seemingly missed the one single point that he was trying to present: Many Trump voters are not pro-Trump, they are anti-Democrat. Make of that what you will; I suspect this in-one-ear-out-the-other treatment of the cry of the average voter will lead to four more years of Trump. It's not really asking that you agree with them, just that you give some signal that you hear them.

Can you please elaborate what kind of signalling is appropriate and called for?

I sincerely don't understand and want to know. To me it seems that the left, today, care more for average guy than the right. So the listening issue seems to apply more to the right as far as economic issues go. Is it more about listening on the cultural issues?

As a left-leaning independent, I will take a crack at this.  Yes, it's about cultural issues.  People do not, as a general rule, vote based on policy or pure self-interest (in the sense that, e.g., an economist would identify it).  They vote on tribalistic emotion and signals related to their group identity (oftentimes later rationalizing to themselves that they are actually voting b/c they support a particular policy). And the easiest trigger for group identity is a clear signal that of what one is not. 

The stronger and more extreme the rhetorical signals sent by e.g., candidates for office, the more intense the tribalizing emotions become; that is the more you remind people of these tribal differences, the more negative their emotions become about the 'out' tribe.   For example (and forgive me if I get the specific details slightly wrong), research has demonstrated that residents of a community will become more conservative and anti-immigrant in their responses to questions about immigration policy if they are exposed to people speaking a foreign language on e.g., a public bus. Not exposed to crime caused by immigrants, not interacting with immigrants, not seeing any personal negative effects of having immigrants around.  Just hearing immigrants speak. 

A lot of liberals seem to NOT understand this basic tribalistic impulse, and they tend to play right into it by constantly discussing topics in ways that highlight the very features that separate groups into specialized subgroups who need (metaphorically speaking) care and attention from government and society (e.g., immigrants, LGBTQ, victims of police shootings, victims of predatory student loan lenders, mothers without access to daycare, etc etc etc). 

Let me point out, I'm not arguing that those groups don't need any POLICY attention in a just society, or that Dems shouldn't be concerned about them. Just that the way they TALK about them (which the right calls 'identity politics') IS actually damaging to Dem candidates' electoral prospects b/c it constantly reminds everyone of differences in our society, rather than commonalities.

Yeah, that kinda makes sense.

When a black teen gets shot by the police or a random stranger - his "black"ness is not the relevant thing - the fact that a fellow human being got shot for no good reason *is* the primary tragedy here that deserves focus.

And yet, human brain is a pattern recognition machine. When you see gazillions of (white) police officers go free after shooting black kids and men, and the one black immigrant police officer who shot a white woman get duly charged - you tend to go "hmmmmmmm" (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/us/minneapolis-police-noor-verdict.html)!!

Structural racism seems pretty real to me. Do you need politicians to be careful how to talk about it? That sounds like a good idea!! When I try to think about specifics however, how do you talk about a black teenager getting shot without talking about his race? - I fail to come up with anything that doesn't sound ridiculous.

So, the question really is what is the realistic way to discuss these issues, or how far can you really ignore these issues, without compromising on basics.

StashingAway

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #195 on: February 25, 2020, 06:26:35 PM »
So, the question really is what is the realistic way to discuss these issues, or how far can you really ignore these issues, without compromising on basics.

That's a great question to ask! I think that's what should be focused on a bit more.

By placing an emphasis on identity, the Democrats have ostracized a huge swath of folks just for existing. It has almost the exact opposite the intended effect. The good-intentioned people are pushing for equality and humanity, but have emphasized the differences between us rather than the similarities. You get more "points" for being in an oppressed minority. The fewer of these points you have, the more of a bad guy you are, regardless of your actual views.

My personal opinion is to focus on the same-ness of the even, rather than the differences. The goal is for race to be a non-issue (as interesting as the color of your eyes, and as relevant). You can't get there by focusing on race (or gender, religion, etc.)

EngagedToFIRE

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 422
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #196 on: February 25, 2020, 06:47:07 PM »
Get's any worse?  Times were pretty good during Obama.  And times have been pretty damn good during Trump.  I'm not sure how people live every day with such an intense negative outlook.

Is unemployment just too darn low?  Stock markets just too high?  Too much peace in the world?  What exactly is it that people think is "going down the toilet"?  Do you miss ISIS?  Wish North Korea would fire some more missiles towards Japan and threaten to nuke the US?  Would you just love another housing bust?  Don't like criminal justice reform?  Love one-sided trade deals?  The reality is that things are really, really freakin good right now.

This country hasn't been going down the toilet in a couple hundred years, in fact, the exact opposite.  Despite a string of Presidents from several parties and ideologies.  There is a reason we have a congress.  It keeps things in check.  And this country will be just fine, regardless of who is elected as President next.

But really, what exactly is such a catastrophe right now for you?  It's fascinating.

God, why am I in the off-topic...
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 06:49:20 PM by EngagedToFIRE »

Wekeeprollingdowntheroad

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 309
  • Location: Full time traveler- USA
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #197 on: February 25, 2020, 07:58:33 PM »
Get's any worse?  Times were pretty good during Obama.  And times have been pretty damn good during Trump.  I'm not sure how people live every day with such an intense negative outlook.

Is unemployment just too darn low?  Stock markets just too high?  Too much peace in the world?  What exactly is it that people think is "going down the toilet"?  Do you miss ISIS?  Wish North Korea would fire some more missiles towards Japan and threaten to nuke the US?  Would you just love another housing bust?  Don't like criminal justice reform?  Love one-sided trade deals?  The reality is that things are really, really freakin good right now.

This country hasn't been going down the toilet in a couple hundred years, in fact, the exact opposite.  Despite a string of Presidents from several parties and ideologies.  There is a reason we have a congress.  It keeps things in check.  And this country will be just fine, regardless of who is elected as President next.

But really, what exactly is such a catastrophe right now for you?  It's fascinating.

God, why am I in the off-topic...

😁😁 Money hoarders are paranoid, then they retire and have lots of spare time to be paranoid 😁

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3798
Re: Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?
« Reply #198 on: February 25, 2020, 09:34:53 PM »
So, the question really is what is the realistic way to discuss these issues, or how far can you really ignore these issues, without compromising on basics.

That's a great question to ask! I think that's what should be focused on a bit more.

By placing an emphasis on identity, the Democrats have ostracized a huge swath of folks just for existing. It has almost the exact opposite the intended effect. The good-intentioned people are pushing for equality and humanity, but have emphasized the differences between us rather than the similarities. You get more "points" for being in an oppressed minority. The fewer of these points you have, the more of a bad guy you are, regardless of your actual views.

My personal opinion is to focus on the same-ness of the even, rather than the differences. The goal is for race to be a non-issue (as interesting as the color of your eyes, and as relevant). You can't get there by focusing on race (or gender, religion, etc.)

Absolutely.  Very clearly stated.

It's definitely easier said than done, but efforts really need to be made. One problem is that it seems like most of the liberals I know are really into the 'sexier' aspects of political activism like marching and chanting and policing politically correct speech with 'cancel culture' and so on.  But getting all excited about marching and chanting for e.g. explicitly "Black Lives Matter" movements is actually potentially counterproductive to their election chances.  Of COURSE, a lot of the people pushing the message All Lives Matter, were doing that in direct opposition to the actual practical problem that spurred the BLM movement (that minorities are disproportionately victimized in police shootings).  But regardless how Dems chose to pursue the policy remedies for the actual problem, they should NOT be pushing that precise rhetoric "BLACK" lives matter, and should in fact be framing the policies with some variant of the language similar to "ALL" lives matter.

What liberals SHOULD get excited about is flipping the Senate (very difficult to do) with donations and on the ground work in the swing states, and things like the Courts.  But it seems like that isn't usually their priority when engaging in activism or when voting. 

As someone who thinks the GOP has gone absolutely terrifyingly bug-fucking nuts, it makes me incredibly frustrated how many of my very liberal friends keep incredibly current about what pronouns whichever gendered or non-gendered celebrity individual prefers to be called, but can't seem to recognize that without dramatic changes to the Senate, precisely none of the things they love to march in the streets about are ever going to be passed into law.  Instead, they spend all their energy on that, or on being pissed at each and staying home on election day b/c the candidate isn't 'pure' enough.