Is anyone else in the U.S. thinking of leaving if this shit gets any worse?

[Buffaloski Boris]

You're right, and that could have been any one a number of threads. The firing at Evergreen College was a couple of years ago was a big eye opener to me in terms of the limits on what people can and cannot say and do anymore in academia, and left quite an impression on me. Hopefully I haven't become a broken record in terms of how often I bring it up.

For anyone who hasn't heard of it the TL;DR version: a liberal professor at a public college sent an e-mail saying he didn't think it was a good idea to have a day where only students of color were to come to campus and white students were urged to stay off campus. Students protested and occupied the administration building. The professor lost his job.

Dr. Weinstein?

Here is much more on Bret Weinstein's background (mostly about his academic story, though the start mentions the Evergreen incident)

Twisted minds think alike. I’m a regular listener to “The Portal.”

[Wekeeprollingdowntheroad]

We’re staying. I feel like we hit the tipping point and went right over years before Trump-it’s one of the reasons we opted out of kids 😁

Whatever happens it’s most definitely gonna be global so why go through the effort. We’re quite comfortable here, try to do the right things in our day to day life but have no illusions that we may only get through one more generation before the end cometh!

It’s just a matter of what hits first- I’m betting on Terminators. I could be persuaded to go with H-Bombs or possibly end of the world weather events but I’m pretty sure some kid in a lab somewhere is gonna put together the wrong wires and here come the machines.

We’ve no interest in living in post apocalyptic world either, so when whatever comes we’re pedaling as fast as we can to ground zero 😁

[scottish]

Terminators?   No way.   It'll be a man made zombie virus.

[Wekeeprollingdowntheroad]

Terminators?   No way.   It'll be a man made zombie virus.

I’m listening

[GuitarStv]

I always thought that free speech referred to the ability to criticize the government without retribution by said government, not the ability to just say whatever one wants.  Because clearly there are laws against hate speech etc.

Democratic governance demands free and open speech  no matter how caustic or hateful it  may be.

Free and open speech?  Yes.

No matter how caustic or hateful it is?  No.


Democratic governments that limit free and open hateful speech by law:
- Australia
- Belgium
- Brazil
- Canada
- Chile
- Denmark
- France
- Germany
- Iceland
- Malta
- The Netherlands
- New Zealand
- Poland
- South Africa
- Spain
- Sweden
- Switzerland
- The Ukraine



It's obviously possible to have the free and open speech necessary for a democratic government while limiting caustic hate speech.

[SunnyDays]

I always thought that free speech referred to the ability to criticize the government without retribution by said government, not the ability to just say whatever one wants.  Because clearly there are laws against hate speech etc.

Democratic governance demands free and open speech  no matter how caustic or hateful it  may be.

Free and open speech?  Yes.

No matter how caustic or hateful it is?  No.


Democratic governments that limit free and open hateful speech by law:
- Australia
- Belgium
- Brazil
- Canada
- Chile
- Denmark
- France
- Germany
- Iceland
- Malta
- The Netherlands
- New Zealand
- Poland
- South Africa
- Spain
- Sweden
- Switzerland
- The Ukraine



It's obviously possible to have the free and open speech necessary for a democratic government while limiting caustic hate speech.

Being Canadian, that was my understanding.  Guess the US constitution is different.

[Sibley]

The Trump presidency has proven that open, unrepentant corruption works in the United States. The democratic process itself is being undermined such that it may soon be impossible to use that democratic process to remove openly corrupt politicans, at which point we will have no recourse.

Of course we do. It's called revolution. It's happened to plenty of countries and empires throughout history. It's how the USA became a country in the first place. Your despondency is leading you to forget basic facts of human history. Stop that.

[Shane]

Being Canadian, that was my understanding.  Guess the US constitution is different.

Yup

[jim555]

Glad I don't live in a country where politically incorrect speech or hurting someone's feelings with words can land me in prison.  US got it right on the 1st.

[former player]

The Trump presidency has proven that open, unrepentant corruption works in the United States. The democratic process itself is being undermined such that it may soon be impossible to use that democratic process to remove openly corrupt politicans, at which point we will have no recourse.

Of course we do. It's called revolution. It's happened to plenty of countries and empires throughout history. It's how the USA became a country in the first place. Your despondency is leading you to forget basic facts of human history. Stop that.

What non-democratic means did you have in mind to overthrow the US government?  (Without outside intervention, I assume?)

[former player]

Terminators?   No way.   It'll be a man made zombie virus.

I’m listening

To the Russians, presumably.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51599009

[Buffaloski Boris]

Glad I don't live in a country where politically incorrect speech or hurting someone's feelings with words can land me in prison.  US got it right on the 1st.

We did get that part right. We also don’t force people to participate in the political system or to vote. Something near and dear to my heart.

Taken as a whole, the US offers an enviable amount of personal liberty. More importantly, the culture itself is such that it expects that personal liberty. Is it perfect, no. Still, I can say pretty much what I want, when I want with very limited legal restrictions.

[GuitarStv]

Glad I don't live in a country where politically incorrect speech or hurting someone's feelings with words can land me in prison.  US got it right on the 1st.

All countries have legal limits on the freedom of speech.  The US included.



You're not legally allowed to hurt someone's feelings by speaking in a provocative way (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaplinsky_v._New_Hampshire).

You're not legally allowed to tell someone to kill themselves (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/suicide-texting-trial-michelle-carter-conrad-roy.html?_r=0).

You're not legally allowed to protest the president at an event where the secret service is present.  (https://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/02/houses-passes-new-bill-that-would-make.html)

Censorship in the US is regularly legally performed on children in school.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazelwood_School_District_v._Kuhlmeier, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethel_School_District_v._Fraser)

Freedom of speech does not extend into the US prison system.

If you hurt someone's feelings by telling lies in the US you can land in prison (or be fined) under slander and libel laws.  (Interestingly enough, this doesn't apply to politicians . . . you can slander and lie as much as you want about people in government - which may explain common US attitudes to elected officials.)

You don't have freedom of speech to repeat the words of others if they're protected by a copy-write or trademark.

You cannot use your freedom of speech to plot to overthrow the government.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_v._United_States)




Nobody has really been able to explain to me how saying that all blacks are genetic mistakes who deserve to die, or that Jews are thieves and money grubbing murderers is a benefit to democracy.

[Buffaloski Boris]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

[former player]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

[OzzieandHarriet]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

former player, yes, exactly

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

Obama also locked children in cages and was known as the "Deporter-in-Chief". It's amazing how fast people forget past policies when they don't fit with a narrative.

The abortion skirmishes are happening at a state level and predate Trump's arrival in office. Here, one can argue that Trump's selection of SCOTUS justices might tilt the outcomes in favor of those against abortion, but with respect to SCOTUS picks, Trump is unremarkably doing what any other Republican would have done.

In Syria, Trump has simply ended the policy started under Obama of backing a terrorist-connected group (YPG) in the fight against ISIS (money-shot is at 2:13).

[GuitarStv]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

Obama also locked children in cages and was known as the "Deporter-in-Chief". It's amazing how fast people forget past policies when they don't fit with a narrative.

Obama was big on deportations, and did lock families up in cages.  But even the link you posted indicates some significant differences in policy between him and Trump related to detainment:

"We’ve noted that Obama did not have a policy to separate families arriving illegally at the border, and that separations under Trump happened systematically as a result of his administration’s policy to prosecute all adults crossing the border illegally."

and

"Immigration policies of Obama and Trump are very different. Trump’s administration implemented a policy that led to the separation of thousands of children from their parents. Obama did not have that policy."

When most people are talking about Trump's "children in cages" they are thinking of the children separated from their families and then being locked up in cages alone.

[ChpBstrd]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

Historically, the best time to get out of a country was just as things were starting to get bad. Those who waited until things got even worse often found themselves trapped due to poverty, official regulations, or other nations shutting their doors to an influx of refugees.

Waiting too long to exit can be fatal, as it was for about a third of the population of Germany after 1933, millions of victims of Communist starvation in China and Russia, and millions of people in Syria over the past several years.

Einstein was visiting the U.S. when Hitler came to power and opted not to return. Soon after he settled, the U.S. closed its doors to Jewish refugees from Europe. Had Einstein been less decisive - for example had he gone back to get relatives, sell property, or complete a work assignment - he might have been trapped. But at the time he decided to stay in the U.S. there was still a lot of wait and see thinking in Europe, and a lot of thinking that maybe things won't get worse.

Lots of US families have histories similar to this.

[Buffaloski Boris]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

OK.  So have any of these things directly affected you or yours? Has your immigrant child been locked in a cage?  Have you or yours been unable to secure an abortion?  Have you or yours been denied the right to vote? And if so, was that directly caused by the Trump administration?

What we're talking about here is emigration.  That's a fairly dramatic move. It means quitting jobs, picking up and leaving your country, your friends, maybe your family, and your culture to seek greener pastures elsewhere. I would think that such a dramatic move would be limited to dramatic causes.

[jim555]

Glad I don't live in a country where politically incorrect speech or hurting someone's feelings with words can land me in prison.  US got it right on the 1st.

All countries have legal limits on the freedom of speech.  The US included.



You're not legally allowed to hurt someone's feelings by speaking in a provocative way (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaplinsky_v._New_Hampshire).

You're not legally allowed to tell someone to kill themselves (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/suicide-texting-trial-michelle-carter-conrad-roy.html?_r=0).

You're not legally allowed to protest the president at an event where the secret service is present.  (https://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/02/houses-passes-new-bill-that-would-make.html)

Censorship in the US is regularly legally performed on children in school.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazelwood_School_District_v._Kuhlmeier, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethel_School_District_v._Fraser)

Freedom of speech does not extend into the US prison system.

If you hurt someone's feelings by telling lies in the US you can land in prison (or be fined) under slander and libel laws.  (Interestingly enough, this doesn't apply to politicians . . . you can slander and lie as much as you want about people in government - which may explain common US attitudes to elected officials.)

You don't have freedom of speech to repeat the words of others if they're protected by a copy-write or trademark.

You cannot use your freedom of speech to plot to overthrow the government.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_v._United_States)




Nobody has really been able to explain to me how saying that all blacks are genetic mistakes who deserve to die, or that Jews are thieves and money grubbing murderers is a benefit to democracy.

I fail to see the point of your post.  No one is arguing an absolutist position, you created your own straw man. 

[maizefolk]

Historically, the best time to get out of a country was just as things were starting to get bad. Those who waited until things got even worse often found themselves trapped due to poverty, official regulations, or other nations shutting their doors to an influx of refugees.

Waiting too long to exit can be fatal, as it was for about a third of the population of Germany after 1933, millions of victims of Communist starvation in China and Russia, and millions of people in Syria over the past several years.

Einstein was visiting the U.S. when Hitler came to power and opted not to return. Soon after he settled, the U.S. closed its doors to Jewish refugees from Europe. Had Einstein been less decisive - for example had he gone back to get relatives, sell property, or complete a work assignment - he might have been trapped. But at the time he decided to stay in the U.S. there was still a lot of wait and see thinking in Europe, and a lot of thinking that maybe things won't get worse.

Lots of US families have histories similar to this.

+1 to all of this.

By the time it is obvious people need to get out of a country it is probably too late for almost all of them to do so.

[Kris]

A friend of mine wrote this to me this morning. It seems quite apt.

“If you read comments sections enough,  you'll see that there are people that apparently don't realize they wholeheartedly support fascism.”

[Wrenchturner]

The first step would probably be to travel, and learn about potential emigration countries.  I don't think the list of countries preferable to the U.S. is a long one.

The constitution is a pretty strong document and it isn't replicated in many countries.

The other option, I suppose, would be to emigrate somewhere where you can buy freedom with bribes.  I don't think that's a smart move though.

[GuitarStv]

Glad I don't live in a country where politically incorrect speech or hurting someone's feelings with words can land me in prison.  US got it right on the 1st.

All countries have legal limits on the freedom of speech.  The US included.



You're not legally allowed to hurt someone's feelings by speaking in a provocative way (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaplinsky_v._New_Hampshire).

You're not legally allowed to tell someone to kill themselves (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/suicide-texting-trial-michelle-carter-conrad-roy.html?_r=0).

You're not legally allowed to protest the president at an event where the secret service is present.  (https://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/02/houses-passes-new-bill-that-would-make.html)

Censorship in the US is regularly legally performed on children in school.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazelwood_School_District_v._Kuhlmeier, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethel_School_District_v._Fraser)

Freedom of speech does not extend into the US prison system.

If you hurt someone's feelings by telling lies in the US you can land in prison (or be fined) under slander and libel laws.  (Interestingly enough, this doesn't apply to politicians . . . you can slander and lie as much as you want about people in government - which may explain common US attitudes to elected officials.)

You don't have freedom of speech to repeat the words of others if they're protected by a copy-write or trademark.

You cannot use your freedom of speech to plot to overthrow the government.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_v._United_States)




Nobody has really been able to explain to me how saying that all blacks are genetic mistakes who deserve to die, or that Jews are thieves and money grubbing murderers is a benefit to democracy.

I fail to see the point of your post.  No one is arguing an absolutist position, you created your own straw man. 

I provided examples of US law where politically incorrect speech and hurting someone's feelings were both legally not permissible.  Maybe I misread your statement, but my understanding was that you were arguing neither are prohibited in the US.

OK.  So have any of these things directly affected you or yours? Has your immigrant child been locked in a cage?  Have you or yours been unable to secure an abortion?  Have you or yours been denied the right to vote? And if so, was that directly caused by the Trump administration?

If you're a transgender person in the military, Trump's executive order has made it impossible for you to take your hormone medication and forces you to serve as the sex assigned to you at birth - not the gender you currently are.  If you're a transgender person who wants to join the military - too bad.  That's no longer allowed in Trump's military.

Would this impact the average straight, white, Christian American?  Probably not.  Does such a person have much to fear going forward?  Also, probably not.  I don't think fleeing the country is a rational plan at this time.

That said, your argument here is that you should only be concerned when erosion of rights gets to impact you personally.  Which means in Nazi Germany, you would be arguing that when they started rounding up gays/transgender people the Jews really had nothing to be afraid of.  History shows us that this reasoning is not very valid.

[Buffaloski Boris]

Historically, the best time to get out of a country was just as things were starting to get bad. Those who waited until things got even worse often found themselves trapped due to poverty, official regulations, or other nations shutting their doors to an influx of refugees.

Waiting too long to exit can be fatal, as it was for about a third of the population of Germany after 1933, millions of victims of Communist starvation in China and Russia, and millions of people in Syria over the past several years.

Einstein was visiting the U.S. when Hitler came to power and opted not to return. Soon after he settled, the U.S. closed its doors to Jewish refugees from Europe. Had Einstein been less decisive - for example had he gone back to get relatives, sell property, or complete a work assignment - he might have been trapped. But at the time he decided to stay in the U.S. there was still a lot of wait and see thinking in Europe, and a lot of thinking that maybe things won't get worse.

Lots of US families have histories similar to this.

+1 to all of this.

By the time it is obvious people need to get out of a country it is probably too late for almost all of them to do so.

So what we're saying then is that people should leave the US because in their heart of hearts they believe there is a significant chance of a repressive regime coming to power in the US that will practice excesses similar to those of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, or Maoist China. Further, that such a regime would be supported by enough Americans to allow it to flourish. And if you wait too long to leave, it may well be too late to flee.

If that's what you really believe is in store in America, then perhaps emigration would be a good idea.   

 

[OzzieandHarriet]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

Historically, the best time to get out of a country was just as things were starting to get bad. Those who waited until things got even worse often found themselves trapped due to poverty, official regulations, or other nations shutting their doors to an influx of refugees.

Waiting too long to exit can be fatal, as it was for about a third of the population of Germany after 1933, millions of victims of Communist starvation in China and Russia, and millions of people in Syria over the past several years.

Einstein was visiting the U.S. when Hitler came to power and opted not to return. Soon after he settled, the U.S. closed its doors to Jewish refugees from Europe. Had Einstein been less decisive - for example had he gone back to get relatives, sell property, or complete a work assignment - he might have been trapped. But at the time he decided to stay in the U.S. there was still a lot of wait and see thinking in Europe, and a lot of thinking that maybe things won't get worse.

Lots of US families have histories similar to this.

Happened to mine, Jews in Poland/Lithuania. Of those who stayed, none survived.

[jim555]

I provided examples of US law where politically incorrect speech and hurting someone's feelings were both legally not permissible.  Maybe I misread your statement, but my understanding was that you were arguing neither are prohibited in the US.

I argue that the US got the 1st right verses all the other countries which don't have a 1st amendment view of speech.  You proceed to cite edge cases in the US but this misses the big picture on minutia.  In the US I can say, without fear of legal jeopardy, I think group X (insert race, religion, etc) are scumbag assholes.  Now in most countries this is politically incorrect "hate speech" and can result in jail or fines.  The idea that the government is deciding what is permissible speech and any speech that doesn't conform to "official think" is a recipe for tyranny.  Congress shall pass no law is simple and clean. 

[Fi(re) on the Farm]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

You're missing "the very fine people" carrying torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". Maybe that doesn't affect you personally but it definitely affects me personally.

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

You're missing "the very fine people" carrying torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". Maybe that doesn't affect you personally but it definitely affects me personally.

Trump admonished those anti-semites, but unsurprisingly, the out-of-context quotation of that press conference continues to this day.

[maizefolk]

So what we're saying then is that people should leave the US because in their heart of hearts they believe there is a significant chance of a repressive regime coming to power in the US that will practice excesses similar to those of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, or Maoist China. Further, that such a regime would be supported by enough Americans to allow it to flourish. And if you wait too long to leave, it may well be too late to flee.

If that's what you really believe is in store in America, then perhaps emigration would be a good idea.   

I am saying that if one knew that such a regime would come to power in the USA, yes it would definitely make sense to emigrate and sooner rather than later.

There are intermediate scenarios where it might or might not make sense to emigrate: would an economic and currency crisis like what Argentina has experienced over the last twenty years be enough to leave?

Unfortunately no one knows the future with any certainty, so we are left with only probabilities. The longer you wait, the more confidence you can have in your prediction, but the less likely it is you'll still have time to effectively act on that prediction.

Now is there a significant chance? Depends on how you define significant. The probability is certainly greater than 0. Of course it has been at all times in US history and is today in every country around the world. I'd say the probability in the US is significantly higher today than it was 20-25 years ago, but as my first post near the top of the thread was meant to illustrate, the probability is higher in an awful lot of countries all over the world today than it was at the end of the 20th century.

Would americans support such a regime, conditional on such a regime coming to power? History certainly suggests that enough of us would, just like in every other country where such a regime managed to come to power. You just read that article about "who would go nazi" at a US dinner party in the 1930s, right? An awful lot of people still fall into those "types" today, and they're not unique to any one political party or movement.

[Shane]

OP, Officially immigrating to another country can be time consuming, frustrating, and costly, especially if you have to hire an attorney to deal with piles of paperwork in an unfamiliar language. Have you ever thought of just becoming a nomad for awhile? It might give you a chance to check out various countries you're considering, first, before actually going through the time and expense of getting residence visas. Albania and Georgia are two countries that come to mind. Cost of living in both countries is low by US standards, but quality of life is, by all accounts, quite high. As an added bonus, both Albania and Georgia allow US citizens to stay for up to 365 days visa free! Assuming you've already got passports, it would be easy to just hop on a flight to a country you're interested in, stay there as long as you legally can without a visa, then, move on to the next country. Rinse and repeat, until 2024, by which time, hopefully, there's an administration in charge of the US that's more to your liking. If you're already FIRE, or almost, there are plenty of countries where you can live well for much less than in the US. If you still need to work some more, depending on what your experience is, you might be able to find jobs working online.

[John Galt incarnate!]

Glad I don't live in a country where politically incorrect speech or hurting someone's feelings with words can land me in prison.  US got it right on the 1st.

Trump complains of lies told by   his  "vicious" critics and  being treated "unfairly."

He has called for changing "libel laws"

Trump is the world's most conspicuous public and political figure. 

His call for changing "libel laws" is an asinine  pipe dream that speaks volumes of his dumbfounding, First Amendment  illiteracy.

[OzzieandHarriet]

This kind of inspired me.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/09/06/case-fleeing-trumps-america/

[Buffaloski Boris]

So what we're saying then is that people should leave the US because in their heart of hearts they believe there is a significant chance of a repressive regime coming to power in the US that will practice excesses similar to those of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, or Maoist China. Further, that such a regime would be supported by enough Americans to allow it to flourish. And if you wait too long to leave, it may well be too late to flee.

If that's what you really believe is in store in America, then perhaps emigration would be a good idea.   

I am saying that if one knew that such a regime would come to power in the USA, yes it would definitely make sense to emigrate and sooner rather than later.

There are intermediate scenarios where it might or might not make sense to emigrate: would an economic and currency crisis like what Argentina has experienced over the last twenty years be enough to leave?

Unfortunately no one knows the future with any certainty, so we are left with only probabilities. The longer you wait, the more confidence you can have in your prediction, but the less likely it is you'll still have time to effectively act on that prediction.

Now is there a significant chance? Depends on how you define significant. The probability is certainly greater than 0. Of course it has been at all times in US history and is today in every country around the world. I'd say the probability in the US is significantly higher today than it was 20-25 years ago, but as my first post near the top of the thread was meant to illustrate, the probability is higher in an awful lot of countries all over the world today than it was at the end of the 20th century.

Would americans support such a regime, conditional on such a regime coming to power? History certainly suggests that enough of us would, just like in every other country where such a regime managed to come to power. You just read that article about "who would go nazi" at a US dinner party in the 1930s, right? An awful lot of people still fall into those "types" today, and they're not unique to any one political party or movement.

None of us have a crystal ball. I find it highly improbable that a repeat of the excesses of the Nazi, Soviet, or Mao regimes would occur in the US anytime in the foreseeable future.  What I think about that doesn't much matter, though if someone has already persuaded themselves that this sort of scenario is reasonably probable and likely to impact them. Realistically, there is no argument that I could come up with that would persuade them otherwise. And as you indicated, the chances are not 0.

Speaking for myself, I think there is a whole lot of henny-pennyism going on across the political spectrum.  That and a lot of tribalism, and people believing the absolute worst about those who don't share their views. Frankly, I think it's bordering on mass hysteria at times. So while I don't really have much fear of a repressive regime coming to power, I do have concern about hot words leading to unfortunate actions.

[GuitarStv]

I provided examples of US law where politically incorrect speech and hurting someone's feelings were both legally not permissible.  Maybe I misread your statement, but my understanding was that you were arguing neither are prohibited in the US.

I argue that the US got the 1st right verses all the other countries which don't have a 1st amendment view of speech.  You proceed to cite edge cases in the US but this misses the big picture on minutia.  In the US I can say, without fear of legal jeopardy, I think group X (insert race, religion, etc) are scumbag assholes.  Now in most countries this is politically incorrect "hate speech" and can result in jail or fines.  The idea that the government is deciding what is permissible speech and any speech that doesn't conform to "official think" is a recipe for tyranny.  Congress shall pass no law is simple and clean.

Sure, the argument that you like the limits on free speech currently present in the US framework is a totally valid opinion to have.  (I like the limits on free speech that Canada currently holds.)  The argument that the US does not censor politically incorrect speech/hurting someone's feelings because of the first amendment is simply not true though.

[MasterStache]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

You're missing "the very fine people" carrying torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". Maybe that doesn't affect you personally but it definitely affects me personally.

Trump admonished those anti-semites, but unsurprisingly, the out-of-context quotation of that press conference continues to this day.

Can you point out where Trump condemned "anti-semites" specifically? Can you point out where he condemned any one group from the alt-right in your link? Your link seems to support the fact that Trump doesn't actually know who the alt-right is but instead blames the alt-left.

Reporter: "Sen. (John) McCain said that the alt-right is behind these attacks, and he linked that same group to those who perpetrated the attack in Charlottesville."
Trump: "Well, I don’t know. I can’t tell you. I’m sure Senator McCain must know what he’s talking about. But when you say the alt-right, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead."
Reporter: "Well, I’m saying, as Senator --"
Trump: "No, define it for me. Come on, let’s go. Define it for me."
Reporter: "Senator McCain defined them as the same group --"
Trump: "Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at -- excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?

[Kris]

"No one is saying America is anywhere near where Germany was at the peak of Hitler’s power—but Germany wasn’t always there either, and that is the point.

That hideous transformation (like so many before) required targeted propaganda, fake news streams, dehumanizing rhetoric from leadership, an uninformed electorate, religious justification—and a marginalized population to serve as the focal point for the holy war....

It’s not a foregone conclusion that America could give birth to something as tragic and sickening as we have seen, but we’re stupid and arrogant if we don’t believe ourselves capable, or that we aren’t already seeing the warning signs of bigotry and prejudice taking root. We already have polarized politics, a complicit Church, a stream of fake news stories, and leadership that will gladly fans the flames of hatred in order to hold power....

[D]o we have the humility not to imagine that we are too intelligent or spiritual or informed not to become as hateful as we have seen other people become?

May we be our best selves in this moment, so that History one day tells our story as one where decency and liberty and compassion and equality and humanity twisted the plot."

John Pavlovitz


https://johnpavlovitz.com/2019/08/30/this-is-how-holocausts-happen/

[Telecaster]

I'm not so much concerned about Trump's policies than the fact he has normalized what should be unacceptable behavior.  For in example, in the recent past he has:

Used the Justice Department to interfere in a criminal prosecution.  This is clear violation of the separation of powers, which is the hallmark of our Constitution.   

Charges the Secret Service up to $600/night to stay at his properties.  This type of self-dealing would be illegal for any other public official, and is clearly unethical.

Used the national security apparatus of the United States in attempt to undermine a political opponent, yet again placing his personal interests ahead of the nation. 

But that's Trump.   The part that keeps me awake at night is that 43% of the country is okay with any of this.    It baffles me that there is a single loyal American anywhere that supports this type of activity.   Hey, if you want to crack down on immigration, make the dirty, put tariffs on China, etc.  Have at it.   Use the power of free speech to convince others those are good polices.  That's how the process was designed to work. 

But firing the brother of someone who testified under oath is the height of Tin Pot chickenshittery.  And the list of Trump's unAmerican chickenshittery is long, long one.  Again, I'm not talking about policy.  If you are opposed to renewable energy, fine.    I'm talking about Trump's direction actions to undermine our democratic institutions.  If you support Trump, you support unAmerican chickenshittery.  Fullstop.   And it scares the living shit out of me that anyone is willing to cheer Trump on as he abuses his office. 

[RetiredAt63]

A 43% of the population that is OK with a President treating his country's allies like garbage is worrisome to me.  Canadians are used to Canada being virtually invisible to Americans, but a President putting tariffs on some our exports to the US because we are a "security risk"?  And people being fine with that? 

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

You're missing "the very fine people" carrying torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". Maybe that doesn't affect you personally but it definitely affects me personally.

Trump admonished those anti-semites, but unsurprisingly, the out-of-context quotation of that press conference continues to this day.

Can you point out where Trump condemned "anti-semites" specifically? Can you point out where he condemned any one group from the alt-right in your link? Your link seems to support the fact that Trump doesn't actually know who the alt-right is but instead blames the alt-left.

Reporter: "Sen. (John) McCain said that the alt-right is behind these attacks, and he linked that same group to those who perpetrated the attack in Charlottesville."
Trump: "Well, I don’t know. I can’t tell you. I’m sure Senator McCain must know what he’s talking about. But when you say the alt-right, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead."
Reporter: "Well, I’m saying, as Senator --"
Trump: "No, define it for me. Come on, let’s go. Define it for me."
Reporter: "Senator McCain defined them as the same group --"
Trump: "Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at -- excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?

"And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists."

[MasterStache]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

You're missing "the very fine people" carrying torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". Maybe that doesn't affect you personally but it definitely affects me personally.

Trump admonished those anti-semites, but unsurprisingly, the out-of-context quotation of that press conference continues to this day.

Can you point out where Trump condemned "anti-semites" specifically? Can you point out where he condemned any one group from the alt-right in your link? Your link seems to support the fact that Trump doesn't actually know who the alt-right is but instead blames the alt-left.

Reporter: "Sen. (John) McCain said that the alt-right is behind these attacks, and he linked that same group to those who perpetrated the attack in Charlottesville."
Trump: "Well, I don’t know. I can’t tell you. I’m sure Senator McCain must know what he’s talking about. But when you say the alt-right, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead."
Reporter: "Well, I’m saying, as Senator --"
Trump: "No, define it for me. Come on, let’s go. Define it for me."
Reporter: "Senator McCain defined them as the same group --"
Trump: "Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at -- excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?

"And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists."

Now this makes zero sense. Trump claimed to not know who the alt-right was despite the fact that it was a far-right/alt-right rally. So how could his initial statement exclude folks he didn't know were there? He seemed sure the alt-left was there and should assume some blame. He made that very clear, no context needed. Seems if he would have taken that approach with the alt-right there wouldn't be any need to infer who he was talking about. The attempt at a moral equivalence didn't help his cause either. I don't believe, taking all the facts into consideration, that the quote is taken out of context at all. I think a lot of things could be inferred from it. 

To interject my own personal opinion. Tens of millions of enslaved humans died as a result of slavery. It was an absolute atrocity. Immortalizing a general who fought to keep the atrocity active is an act of wickedness itself. If you feel a desire to attend an alt-right/far-right rally and find yourself surrounded by folks with torches chanting anti-semantic slogans it might be a good time to question your priorities in life. These "good people," while they may not be associated with the alt-right, are indeed protesting for the same cause. And it's not a good one. And it doesn't make them good people.

This has veered way off topic and I apologize to the OP. I'll say no more ( :

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

You're missing "the very fine people" carrying torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". Maybe that doesn't affect you personally but it definitely affects me personally.

Trump admonished those anti-semites, but unsurprisingly, the out-of-context quotation of that press conference continues to this day.

Can you point out where Trump condemned "anti-semites" specifically? Can you point out where he condemned any one group from the alt-right in your link? Your link seems to support the fact that Trump doesn't actually know who the alt-right is but instead blames the alt-left.

Reporter: "Sen. (John) McCain said that the alt-right is behind these attacks, and he linked that same group to those who perpetrated the attack in Charlottesville."
Trump: "Well, I don’t know. I can’t tell you. I’m sure Senator McCain must know what he’s talking about. But when you say the alt-right, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead."
Reporter: "Well, I’m saying, as Senator --"
Trump: "No, define it for me. Come on, let’s go. Define it for me."
Reporter: "Senator McCain defined them as the same group --"
Trump: "Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at -- excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?

"And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists."

Now this makes zero sense. Trump claimed to not know who the alt-right was despite the fact that it was a far-right/alt-right rally. So how could his initial statement exclude folks he didn't know where there? He seemed sure the alt-left was there and should assume some blame. He made that very clear, no context needed. Seems if he would have taken that approach with the alt-right there wouldn't be any need to infer who he was talking about. The attempt at a moral equivalence didn't help his cause either. I don't believe, taking all the facts into consideration, that the quote is taken out of context at all. I think a lot of things could be inferred from it. 

To interject my own personal opinion. Tens of millions of enslaved humans died as a result of slavery. It was an absolute atrocity. Immortalizing a general who fought to keep the atrocity active is an act of wickedness of itself. If you feel a desire to attend an alt-right/far-right rally and find yourself surrounded by folks with torches chanting anti-semantic slogans it might be a good time to question your priorities in life. These "good people," while they may not be associated with the alt-right, are indeed protesting for the same cause. And it's not a good one. And it doesn't make them good people.

This has veered way off topic and I apologize to the OP. I'll say no more ( :

I'll shut up too after this but Trump was being careful in his response. Reading the entire transcript and watching the entire video, I get the impression he was trying to be precise here for (ironically) exactly the reasons why his statements were later grossly misconstrued: the media was attempting to play a low-level gotcha game. The Alt-Right is a neologism that has far less specific meaning than "neo-Nazis" or "white nationalists". Trump was careful to use the more precise categories for groups that were behind the violence at the demonstrations, while also attempting to distinguish those who were violent from those who were merely legally and peaceably protesting the removal statues commemorating the Civil War*.

For those who believe they are fighting a post-truth fake-news foe, they need to be as precise as possible with factual statements. That is why I make a bigly deal of this. Getting one thing wrong like this means there will be 1 million retweets of how the left spreads nothing but easily falsifiable propaganda. These sorts of blunders are self-defeating and are what may ultimately discredit the Democrats as an opposition party in this election cycle. The alternative approach is to out-demagogue the demagogue-in-chief, but that may be a cure as bad as the disease.

*I think even the peaceful protesters are wrong for rather straightforward reasons but that is not a point I'm arguing here.

[OzzieandHarriet]

I'm not so much concerned about Trump's policies than the fact he has normalized what should be unacceptable behavior.  For in example, in the recent past he has:

Used the Justice Department to interfere in a criminal prosecution.  This is clear violation of the separation of powers, which is the hallmark of our Constitution.   

Charges the Secret Service up to $600/night to stay at his properties.  This type of self-dealing would be illegal for any other public official, and is clearly unethical.

Used the national security apparatus of the United States in attempt to undermine a political opponent, yet again placing his personal interests ahead of the nation. 

But that's Trump.   The part that keeps me awake at night is that 43% of the country is okay with any of this.    It baffles me that there is a single loyal American anywhere that supports this type of activity.   Hey, if you want to crack down on immigration, make the dirty, put tariffs on China, etc.  Have at it.   Use the power of free speech to convince others those are good polices.  That's how the process was designed to work. 

But firing the brother of someone who testified under oath is the height of Tin Pot chickenshittery.  And the list of Trump's unAmerican chickenshittery is long, long one.  Again, I'm not talking about policy.  If you are opposed to renewable energy, fine.    I'm talking about Trump's direction actions to undermine our democratic institutions.  If you support Trump, you support unAmerican chickenshittery.  Fullstop.   And it scares the living shit out of me that anyone is willing to cheer Trump on as he abuses his office.

YES!

[Leisured]

This kind of inspired me.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/09/06/case-fleeing-trumps-america/

Good link, Ozzie&. Trump appears to be self limiting. He is not interested in war, unlike political monsters of the past. He seems to have no interest in social control in the manner of Xi Jinping. Under normal presidents, the State Dept runs America, and I suspect still does.

[former player]

I'm curious, and more to the point of the OP's post: what is happening or likely to happen in the US as a result of a future Trump administration that is so bad that it would result in people seriously wanting to consider emigration?  I guess I'm kind of missing what impact President Trump has had on day to day life.  The only major legislation that I can think of that he has gotten through was the tax rewrite a couple of years ago. The net impact on me was minimal. And I guess later this year the REAL ID requirements will kick in and I'll have to either show my passport or get a new drivers license if I want to fly on an airplane.  These are not exactly the sort of things that make me think that I'm about to be marched off to a re-education camp or meet some other horrible fate. 

What am I missing? Is it really President Trump, or is it more of an adverse reaction to aspects of the culture? Or are some people just being dramatic?

You are missing being an immigrant child locked up in a cage.  You are missing being a woman who needs an abortion.  You are missing being a person of colour who wants to be able to exercise their right to vote in free and fair elections.  You are missing being someone who wants their rivers and watercourses not to be polluted by industry.  You are missing being someone who cares about not having a corrupt government.   You are missing wanting to live in a country that doesn't sell the allies that have fought terrorists for it for years to Turkish murderers.

Some things can be dramatic and also true.

OK.  So have any of these things directly affected you or yours? Has your immigrant child been locked in a cage?  Have you or yours been unable to secure an abortion?  Have you or yours been denied the right to vote? And if so, was that directly caused by the Trump administration?

What we're talking about here is emigration.  That's a fairly dramatic move. It means quitting jobs, picking up and leaving your country, your friends, maybe your family, and your culture to seek greener pastures elsewhere. I would think that such a dramatic move would be limited to dramatic causes.

The very obvious point here is that: this is not me, and by making it about me all you are doing is trying to avoid making it about you and your choices.  Which I hope would fall somewhere between supporting Trump and deciding to emigrate from the USA.

[rab-bit]

Interesting timing for this thread since I had just started thinking about this (the idea of leaving the USA) in the last few weeks.

For me the line in the sand would be if Trump was re-elected for a second term and then there was serious talk/possibility of repeal of the 22nd amendment to allow for more than two terms. I think that it's extremely unlikely that this could actually happen, but Trump himself has "joked" about this and I wouldn't put it past some (most?) Republicans to support it.

[Kl285528]

I'm not so much concerned about Trump's policies than the fact he has normalized what should be unacceptable behavior.  For in example, in the recent past he has:

Used the Justice Department to interfere in a criminal prosecution.  This is clear violation of the separation of powers, which is the hallmark of our Constitution.   

Charges the Secret Service up to $600/night to stay at his properties.  This type of self-dealing would be illegal for any other public official, and is clearly unethical.

Used the national security apparatus of the United States in attempt to undermine a political opponent, yet again placing his personal interests ahead of the nation. 

But that's Trump.   The part that keeps me awake at night is that 43% of the country is okay with any of this.    It baffles me that there is a single loyal American anywhere that supports this type of activity.   Hey, if you want to crack down on immigration, make the dirty, put tariffs on China, etc.  Have at it.   Use the power of free speech to convince others those are good polices.  That's how the process was designed to work. 

But firing the brother of someone who testified under oath is the height of Tin Pot chickenshittery.  And the list of Trump's unAmerican chickenshittery is long, long one.  Again, I'm not talking about policy.  If you are opposed to renewable energy, fine.    I'm talking about Trump's direction actions to undermine our democratic institutions.  If you support Trump, you support unAmerican chickenshittery.  Fullstop.   And it scares the living shit out of me that anyone is willing to cheer Trump on as he abuses his office.

All of this - but particularly the bolded part. It just offends my internal moral compass, and my intellect. Damn, happy to disagree with people about things, but for folks to champion Trump as a wonderful leader just blows my mind. I dropped my long standing Republican registration over his election.

[talltexan]

This kind of inspired me.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/09/06/case-fleeing-trumps-america/

Good link, Ozzie&. Trump appears to be self limiting. He is not interested in war, unlike political monsters of the past. He seems to have no interest in social control in the manner of Xi Jinping. Under normal presidents, the State Dept runs America, and I suspect still does.

Would your suspicion still hold if someone reminded you that Trump has cut State's budget by 20%? Yes, Trump likes Pompeo, but this is because of Pompeo's relentless fealty even as Trump starves Pompeo's department of resources.

I imagine there are a whole list of other things Trump has done to weaken the state dept., some of which are mentioned on this thread.

[MasterStache]

Trump was careful to use the more precise categories for groups that were behind the violence at the demonstrations, while also attempting to distinguish those who were violent from those who were merely legally and peaceably protesting the removal statues commemorating the Civil War.

Problem is, these "many" folks that were there to legally and peacefully protest the removal of a statue and not members/supporters of the particular far-right/alt-right groups don't really exist. The protest was legally permitted and organized by members of the alt-nights, KKK, 3% Risen and members of far right militia to include the estimated number of members/supporters of those groups. They created signs and banners. They made social media post and had speeches planned from some of the notorious leaders of those groups.  There simply weren't "very fine people" in any of those groups or whom showed up in support of those groups. You don't show up to a planned KKK rally to simply support wood burning. 

You also have issues like this:
REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville.
TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group.
TRUMP: No, no. There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly, the taking down the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones.

“The night before” is referring to the Friday night torchlit rally of August 11, where more than 200 attendees held tiki torches on the campus of the University of Virginia and chanted “Jews will not replace us” and “Blood and soil.” And notice his use of the word "some" meaning some were probably good too. Probably even "very fine."