Author Topic: Index investing leading to excessive executive pay at public companies?  (Read 2084 times)

Dan_at_Home

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I have never heard of this idea, it was a thought that just came across my head randomly.

The theory goes:

Historically including for most of the 20th century, most stock investors or funds holding stocks in public companies were active type investors (indexing really did not even become possible for most until Vanguard came along probably around the mid 1970s to 1980s).  Thus, 20-40 years ago, most people owned stock in a few or handful of independent companies. 

Since there were only a few companies in your portfolio at the time, you could better track of them, read their annual or quarterly reports and follow them in detail.  Thus, if you felt a company was spending too much money on the executive management you could sell the stock in protest and buy another company. 

Fast forward now to say around the 1995-2015+ era when index investing really started to become more popular and common place.  The only problem with passive stock indexing, is that now your stocks are split between 50 or 100 or more companies, and huge numbers of stock holders are doing this now.  It is good in terms of diversification for the individual investor however it is too many companies for most investors to practically follow them. 

Thus, it appears that there are no investors left to keep a careful eye on management and how these companies are being run.  Rather the stock owners are mostly passive, indexing investors who never pay any attention anything going on with these companies.  Thus, the fox is guarding the hen house so to speak, and the theory is that at some point CEOs started realizing this and have steadily been pushing the limits to pay themselves more and more of the company's money to see if the investors will notice or not.  I am not saying that indexing should be stopped altogether (I index as well) however it may be a possible unnoticed side effect from it. 

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 10:25:20 PM by Dan_at_Home »

matchewed

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Re: Index investing leading to excessive executive pay at public companies?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2015, 05:52:20 AM »
1) Prior to the advent of index funds any random ol' Joe/Jane would probably have $0 invested in any company. The introduction of 401k's and the movement away from pensions has more to do with the increase in investing by the general public.

2) Vanguard does vote it's shares (link). Now to be fair to your point they do seem to, at a glance, vote in favor of what the board says.

3) However you would have to validate your assumption that sometime in the past shareholders frequently vote against the board. I'm not sure that's the case. And if it's capital return you're seeking it may not be in your best interests to do so. Arguably the increase in CEO pay (putting aside the income disparity question for a moment) has seen a massive increase in the value of the companies. Re-introducing the disparity argument; I'm not 100% convinced that CEO pay is the largest driver of income disparity. I see it as a larger society structural issue with several root causes, CEO pay being a drop in the bucket compared to many other things that can affect it (the evolution of cultural norms in regards to consumption, taxation, the sticky "problem" of business and politics being interwoven..etc.)

In short I can see where you're going with that but would have to question whether it was not a "problem" in the past, just a different sort of "problem" that resulted in the same outcome.

Left

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Re: Index investing leading to excessive executive pay at public companies?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2015, 05:58:07 AM »
like matchewed... I see how you make the argument that index investors may have less say. I mean I still get links to vote on issues... but I don't :S sorry, I just don't really know what to vote either way so I don't even care...

which may or may not lead to higher CEO pay.... but this is where I disagree with OP, I don't actually consider high CEO pay to be a bad thing... most of their pay includes stock options which is only worth something if the company is worth something, which means that the CEO will try to raise the value of the company

at the end of the day, when you ask  does "Index investing leading to excessive executive pay at public companies?" my reply would be so what if it does? It isn't making me "worse" off than if I wasn't index investing...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 05:59:50 AM by eyem »

acepedro45

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Re: Index investing leading to excessive executive pay at public companies?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2015, 10:27:09 AM »
There is a long and sad history of shareholders rubber stamping corporate pay decisions, and indeed all company decisions. Prettty sure it's in the 1934 edition of "Security Analysis" that Ben Graham wrote "public owners seem to have abdicated all claim to control over the paid superintendents of their property."

As a side note, I do recall a fascinating contrarian argument being given in "A Mathematician Plays the Stock Market" by John Allen Paulos. The argument:

The more active investors there are scouring the market for bargains and diminishing each other's chances of actually making any money, the better the market's overall price discovery and the benefits for passive index investors, who can sit back and reap the fruits of their active brethren's hard work. 

But....

The more passive investors there are buying up index funds indiscriminately and making no attempt to "beat the market," the more bargains and market inefficiencies will abound, a perfect climate for an active investor to flourish.



Tyson

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Re: Index investing leading to excessive executive pay at public companies?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2015, 10:48:05 AM »
I think a lot of it is the income tax rates.  Before Reagan (and Kennedy before him), the tax rates for people with very high incomes was much higher than it is now (up to 90%).  So it didn't make a lot of sense to give someone a lot of pay that would just get funneled to the government.  With the current lower tax rates, that's no longer true.

Also, I think that before Lee Iacoca there weren't any "rock star" CEO's, they were just another faceless bureaucrat in a sea of faceless bureaucrats.  With him, you got the "big star needs big pay" paradigm going.

Dan_at_Home

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Re: Index investing leading to excessive executive pay at public companies?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2015, 08:29:42 AM »
Thanks for the replies, these all make valid and good points, not much I can disagree with.