Author Topic: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?  (Read 35528 times)

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #450 on: April 21, 2017, 06:53:32 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

MasterStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #451 on: April 21, 2017, 07:01:58 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

So a fair comparison to someone who is "fat" is someone getting into car accidents? So which car is equivalent to an underactive thyroid? How about a pregnant woman? Would a woman expecting triplets pay 3 times as much since she is 3 times as "fat?"   


MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #452 on: April 21, 2017, 07:07:14 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

So a fair comparison to someone who is "fat" is someone getting into car accidents? So which car is equivalent to an underactive thyroid? How about a pregnant woman? Would a woman expecting triplets pay 3 times as much since she is 3 times as "fat?"
It's a fair comparison because they're both more risky insurance holders, thus they should be charged more. Don't see how you don't get that. An underachieve thyroid, first off, is almost never the case when it comes to someone being fat. Even if it is a thyroid issue, it still doesn't change the fact that it's calories in vs. calories out. But, if we really wanted to stretch the comparison out, I guess the best comparison would be a legally blind driver. Sure, if they just started driving, they haven't gotten into an accident yet, but if you're a car insurance company, would you honestly not charge them more, because there's a much higher chance you'll have to pay for it?

The pregnancy comment is just stupid. Pregnancy =/= obesity.

MasterStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #453 on: April 21, 2017, 07:32:27 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

So a fair comparison to someone who is "fat" is someone getting into car accidents? So which car is equivalent to an underactive thyroid? How about a pregnant woman? Would a woman expecting triplets pay 3 times as much since she is 3 times as "fat?"
The pregnancy comment is just stupid. Pregnancy =/= obesity.

Actually a pregnant woman gains a considerable amount of fat during pregnancy as her body changes and prepares for the baby. So yes, they could absolutely be considered overweight and/or obese by conventional standards. And after pregnancy, since the body has adapted to natural changes, the ability to lose the weight becomes much more difficult.

Not really the same as driving a car. Not even in the same universe comparison wise.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #454 on: April 21, 2017, 07:37:35 AM »

Actually a pregnant woman gains a considerable amount of fat during pregnancy as her body changes and prepares for the baby. So yes, they could absolutely be considered overweight and/or obese by conventional standards.
Pregnancy is a temporary condition that should already be accounted for in insurance costs anyways. It's not due to bad eating habits or an unhealthy lifestyle. Huge difference.

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And after pregnancy, since the body has adapted to natural changes, the ability to lose the weight becomes much more difficult.
But still calories in vs. calories out.

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Not really the same as driving a car. Not even in the same universe comparison wise.
The original comparison is valid. A bad driver is more risk. A fat person is more risk. Both should be charged more.

If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same? If you say yes, then that's great for you, but that's not how business works.

MasterStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #455 on: April 21, 2017, 07:45:04 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #456 on: April 21, 2017, 07:52:39 AM »
The point of insurance is to spread the risk around a large pool of people

Changing behavior of people is definitely a good goal, but insurance shouldn't be used as a cudgel against people you are morally opposed to.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #457 on: April 21, 2017, 07:53:47 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

MasterStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #458 on: April 21, 2017, 07:59:04 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

Better question. Why do you believe only certain people should be provided healthcare?

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #459 on: April 21, 2017, 08:02:12 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

Better question. Why do you believe only certain people should be provided healthcare?
No, that's not a better question. It's a strawman. I never said that.

Jrr85

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #460 on: April 21, 2017, 08:24:32 AM »
The point of insurance is to spread the risk around a large pool of people

Changing behavior of people is definitely a good goal, but insurance shouldn't be used as a cudgel against people you are morally opposed to.

In order to have insurance that spreads the risk around a large pool of people, you have to have different rates for people with different risks, or you have to have a pool of people with similar risks.  Insurance is just a financial instrument. 

And it's a poor mechanism for pursuing redistribution. 

 

Gin1984

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #461 on: April 21, 2017, 08:46:40 AM »
The point of insurance is to spread the risk around a large pool of people

Changing behavior of people is definitely a good goal, but insurance shouldn't be used as a cudgel against people you are morally opposed to.

In order to have insurance that spreads the risk around a large pool of people, you have to have different rates for people with different risks, or you have to have a pool of people with similar risks.  Insurance is just a financial instrument. 

And it's a poor mechanism for pursuing redistribution.
I've only ever been on employer insurance so that has not been true IME.

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Poundwise

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #462 on: April 21, 2017, 09:04:13 AM »
My take on this all is that everyone benefits if the people around them are healthier. You don't have to pick up the slack for co-workers taking sick days or personal days to care for sick relatives, the people around you are less stressed and more pleasant, you name it. It's a good thing. 

So I'm willing to pay a little extra so that fat guy over there can get his bariatric surgery, so he can have the energy to do his job a little better. Or to improve the status of any seriously ill person so ease the burden on their caregivers. 

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #463 on: April 21, 2017, 09:06:44 AM »
My take on this all is that everyone benefits if the people around them are healthier. You don't have to pick up the slack for co-workers taking sick days or personal days to care for sick relatives, the people around you are less stressed and more pleasant, you name it. It's a good thing. 

So I'm willing to pay a little extra so that fat guy over there can get his bariatric surgery, so he can have the energy to do his job a little better. Or to improve the status of any seriously ill person so ease the burden on their caregivers.
And that's fine. But what if I'm not willing to pay a bit extra? Why should I be forced to? It's not my fault that people overeat.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #464 on: April 21, 2017, 09:14:03 AM »
My take on this all is that everyone benefits if the people around them are healthier. You don't have to pick up the slack for co-workers taking sick days or personal days to care for sick relatives, the people around you are less stressed and more pleasant, you name it. It's a good thing. 

So I'm willing to pay a little extra so that fat guy over there can get his bariatric surgery, so he can have the energy to do his job a little better. Or to improve the status of any seriously ill person so ease the burden on their caregivers.
And that's fine. But what if I'm not willing to pay a bit extra? Why should I be forced to? It's not my fault that people overeat.
We've been over this before. We all hate fat lazy people who get multiple surgeries. But since deciding who deserves to live is a slippery slope, we've kind of decided as a society to let it slide.

tyort1

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #465 on: April 21, 2017, 09:16:03 AM »
My take on this all is that everyone benefits if the people around them are healthier. You don't have to pick up the slack for co-workers taking sick days or personal days to care for sick relatives, the people around you are less stressed and more pleasant, you name it. It's a good thing. 

So I'm willing to pay a little extra so that fat guy over there can get his bariatric surgery, so he can have the energy to do his job a little better. Or to improve the status of any seriously ill person so ease the burden on their caregivers.
And that's fine. But what if I'm not willing to pay a bit extra? Why should I be forced to? It's not my fault that people overeat.

Uhm yeah.  If the law says that we all pay in so that we all get covered, then yeah you pay extra.  You can whine about it and throw a tantrum if you want, but you will pay.
Frugalite in training.

MasterStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #466 on: April 21, 2017, 09:19:02 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

Better question. Why do you believe only certain people should be provided healthcare?
No, that's not a better question. It's a strawman. I never said that.

Car insurance companies can drop people for deeming them too high risk. Remember the analogy you said was valid? Is it now no longer valid because it doesn't fit your agenda?

Outside of using your analogy against you, poor people who are discriminated against because of their perceived eating habits and required to pay more in healthcare premiums, will absolutely not be able to afford healthcare. And where do you draw the line  and how do you test to determine it's precisely form poor eating habits? Do you follow them into McDonalds?  What if they just gave birth and have a considerable amount of weight to lose? How much time do you give them to lose the weight? What if their child develops cancer and they have to spend their free time attending cancer treatments and therefore don't have the time to focus on diet and exercise?

And where do you in fact draw the line? My friend has a genetic pre-disposition to ALS since his mom died form it recently. Should he be charged more?

How about those serving in the military? They are certainly more likely to be injured or die, especially in combat. What about those who drive more? Sit behind a desk more often for their job? All folks making choices that increase certain health risk.

Who knew healthcare was so complex?   
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:48:32 AM by BeginnerStache »

Wexler

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #467 on: April 21, 2017, 09:43:09 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

If the bill as drafted read "community rating doesn't apply for fat people (seriously, put down the cheetos, fatties)" then this analysis would be relevant.  However, the repeal of community rating and the return of charging based on pre-existing conditions doesn't just apply to fat people who you personally think deserve it.  It catches 4 year old with leukemia, premature babies, people with MS, people with breast cancer, people with anemia, people who almost died giving birth, people with sports injuries, and a whole list of other medical problems that can't easily be blamed on the sufferers.  The only relevant discussion applies to the bills under consideration, and the AHCA in various versions doesn't have special provisions for making fat people suffer while innocent children with pre-existing conditions are spared. So, we can argue until we are blue in the face about whether fat people deserve it, but the discussion we should be having is whether we should vote for people who think that people with pre-existing conditions of any kind should be charged more/denied insurance.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #468 on: April 21, 2017, 03:05:42 PM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same? If you say yes, then that's great for you, but that's not how business works.

Gee, it's almost as if the profit motive confounds the general welfare when it comes to healthcare payment and delivery. WHO KNEW!?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Poundwise

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #469 on: April 21, 2017, 04:07:45 PM »
Quote
Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

You are correct.  But you are forgetting the difference between car insurance/health insurance companies and the government.  Insurance companies are supposed to turn a profit. The government is supposed to serve the people, and make our lives better.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #470 on: April 21, 2017, 08:05:44 PM »
Quote
Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

You are correct.  But you are forgetting the difference between car insurance/health insurance companies and the government.  Insurance companies are supposed to turn a profit. The government is supposed to serve the people, and make our lives better.

For a follower of Ayn Rand, government making people's lives better goes against the individual's will as the primary agent of freedom.

SpeedReader

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #471 on: April 25, 2017, 07:47:18 PM »
For a follower of Ayn Rand, government making people's lives better goes against the individual's will as the primary agent of freedom.
[/quote]

So I am curious; how do followers of Ayn Rand deal with things like funding for medical research to cure diseases they don't have yet?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 08:12:25 PM by SpeedReader »

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #472 on: April 26, 2017, 07:13:01 AM »
For a follower of Ayn Rand, government making people's lives better goes against the individual's will as the primary agent of freedom.

So I am curious; how do followers of Ayn Rand deal with things like funding for medical research to cure diseases they don't have yet?
[/quote]

That's a perfect example of why I wouldn't want to live in an Ayn Rand world, and taking the logic further, why we need taxes, and that government plays a role to improve our lives.

tyort1

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #473 on: April 26, 2017, 11:06:20 AM »
I believe the Randites don't really think about or value the concept of "the common good".  If you think there's no such thing as the common good, then the rest of their position is consistent with that.
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Wexler

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #474 on: April 26, 2017, 11:45:15 AM »
I believe the Randites don't really think about or value the concept of "the common good".  If you think there's no such thing as the common good, then the rest of their position is consistent with that.

I guess they think that someone will develop an affordable app to cure cancer if they ever get it and that all that NIH-funded research is just parasitical communism.  No, wait, they think that their lifehacker Crossfit and vitamin routine will make them immune to cancer.  And that anyone who gets cancer somehow deserved it and could have avoided it through better life choices.  And they will never be convinced otherwise until someone they know and love gets cancer and then, and only then, will they come around.  Of course, that will be years after they voted for politicians who systematically destroyed every institution and research facility that could have helped them.  But they will take no responsibility for such actions, instead blaming Democrats, saying they were forced to vote for politicians who wanted to defund the National Cancer Institute, because HER EMAILS and BENGHAZI and PIZZA.

This is why we can't have nice things.

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #475 on: April 26, 2017, 12:42:42 PM »
I like Ayn Rand's writing, she is an excellent writer, especially considering she wrote in English as a second language. Ultimately, she was so very pro laissex fair Free Market Capitalism because her formative years were in the corrupt as hell Communist Soviet Union.  --->She basically just went ALL THE WAY to the other side. She saw one extreme and opted for the opposite extreme in her "Objectivism."

The truth is that the best way to do things are often more middle of the road. For example, lets build some factories, but with sufficient regulation (i.e. to avoid poisoning our rivers, lakes and oceans). Lets promote free market enterprise via a national banking system (but with the FED ensuring proper access to money without overflooding the market and getting rampant inflation). Lets encourage large comporations to dominate in the national and international stage (but with the SEC around to dissuade corrupt actions and cheating within the system).

I also note that in her writing, some of the worst actors were the lying, thieving, manipulating,  "taker" politician class. What category do you think she'd put "I'm smart cause I don't pay taxes" Trump?

JGS

SpeedReader

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #476 on: April 26, 2017, 08:15:16 PM »
I used to read a lot of science fiction, so I grasp the idea of writing from an extreme point of view as Rand did.  What I don't grasp is how apparently-normal people take her writing as a blueprint for a workable society. 

I have to quibble with JustGettingStarted about the quality of Rand's writing; the zillion-page rant at the end of Atlas Shrugged was enough to make me want to slit my wrists.  :-)

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #477 on: April 27, 2017, 05:20:15 AM »
SpeedRacer -> You got to the end, didn't you? How many 1000 page books does the average person read, anyway?

mtnrider

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #478 on: April 27, 2017, 08:02:32 AM »
I like Ayn Rand's writing, she is an excellent writer, especially considering she wrote in English as a second language. Ultimately, she was so very pro laissex fair Free Market Capitalism because her formative years were in the corrupt as hell Communist Soviet Union.  --->She basically just went ALL THE WAY to the other side. She saw one extreme and opted for the opposite extreme in her "Objectivism."

The truth is that the best way to do things are often more middle of the road.

Fair point about writing in English as a second language - it couldn't have been easy.  But I totally disagree that she's an excellent writer.  She's OK, with some interesting points, but not excellent.  (And, to use her phrase, I think we can say that objectively. :) )

Picking nits: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but she didn't really live in a pure communist state.  The Soviet Union was more of a totalitarian state - the state owned everything.  In a communist state the society owns everything.  Maybe your point still stands, that she went to the other extreme - from everything being state owned to everything being individually owned?

Totally agree about the best paths being somewhere in the middle.

Jrr85

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #479 on: April 27, 2017, 10:31:40 AM »
I like Ayn Rand's writing, she is an excellent writer, especially considering she wrote in English as a second language. Ultimately, she was so very pro laissex fair Free Market Capitalism because her formative years were in the corrupt as hell Communist Soviet Union.  --->She basically just went ALL THE WAY to the other side. She saw one extreme and opted for the opposite extreme in her "Objectivism."

The truth is that the best way to do things are often more middle of the road.

Fair point about writing in English as a second language - it couldn't have been easy.  But I totally disagree that she's an excellent writer.  She's OK, with some interesting points, but not excellent.  (And, to use her phrase, I think we can say that objectively. :) )

Picking nits: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but she didn't really live in a pure communist state.  The Soviet Union was more of a totalitarian state - the state owned everything.  In a communist state the society owns everything.  Maybe your point still stands, that she went to the other extreme - from everything being state owned to everything being individually owned?

Totally agree about the best paths being somewhere in the middle.

She lived in the exact sort of communist state that has resulted everytime it's been tried.  Considering how many million die with each attempt, I think we should probably forgo on the "they just didn't do communism the right way arguments." 

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #480 on: April 28, 2017, 10:04:40 AM »
I hear you there, JR

sol

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #481 on: April 28, 2017, 10:29:11 AM »
Why all the hate for communism?  Is that just residual aftereffects from cold war propaganda?

Communism is an economic system, like capitalism, in which ownership is shared for mutual benefit instead of held privately for individual benefit.  It is a business model, not a government model. 

And America has lots of communist institutions that are popular, effective, and profitable.  Think of all the things that the American people own collectively, instead of individually, and try to understand WHY we've chosen to organize them that way.  I'll get you started with an easy one: national parks. Totally communist!

So I don't really have any problem with communism the economic model.  I have problems with authoritarianism and totalitarianism, which are the types of governments that have typically tried to implement economic communism, and have naturally let graft and corruption distort those noble goals.  But I don't think those are the inevitable consequence of collectively shared ownership of a resource, as our national parks highlight.  The key to successful institutions is good governance, not privately held ownership stakes.  That seems so obvious it almost seems silly to have to write it down.

But I'm sure someone here will disagree with me on that point, and argue that personal profit motive is the secret ingredient to America's success.  Those people must also bebetotally totally unconcerned with president Trump's conflicts of interest, because they WANT the president to run the nation for the benefit of his personal privately owned business interests.

Rimu05

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #482 on: April 28, 2017, 10:34:20 AM »
Why all the hate for communism?  Is that just residual aftereffects from cold war propaganda?

Communism is an economic system, like capitalism, in which ownership is shared for mutual benefit instead of held privately for individual benefit.  It is a business model, not a government model. 

And America has lots of communist institutions that are popular, effective, and profitable.  Think of all the things that the American people own collectively, instead of individually, and try to understand WHY we've chosen to organize them that way.  I'll get you started with an easy one: national parks. Totally communist!

So I don't really have any problem with communism the economic model.  I have problems with authoritarianism and totalitarianism, which are the types of governments that have typically tried to implement economic communism, and have naturally let graft and corruption distort those noble goals.  But I don't think those are the inevitable consequence of collectively shared ownership of a resource, as our national parks highlight.  The key to successful institutions is good governance, not privately held ownership stakes.  That seems so obvious it almost seems silly to have to write it down.

But I'm sure someone here will disagree with me on that point, and argue that personal profit motive is the secret ingredient to America's success.  Those people must also bebetotally totally unconcerned with president Trump's conflicts of interest, because they WANT the president to run the nation for the benefit of his personal privately owned business interests.

I feel you mistake socialism with communism.

In general, there is no state in the world that functions with one political, economic, and philosophical ideal.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 10:38:02 AM by Rimu05 »

sol

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #483 on: April 28, 2017, 11:09:46 AM »
I feel you mistake socialism with communism.

Isn't socialism just communism plus democracy?  In the sense that communism is about collective ownership, and not political structures, I don't see the conflict there.  Communism is the opposite of capitalism, not the opposite of democracy.

I think it's easy to find fatal flaws with 20th century communist states (such as the mass murders mentioned above).  It's less easy to find fatal flaws with the idea of collective ownership of economic assets.  At least in some situations, I think collective ownership by all citizens makes more sense than private ownership.  Capitalism's devotion to private ownership has certainly generated its fair share of problems, too.

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #484 on: April 29, 2017, 09:56:13 AM »
I feel you mistake socialism with communism.

Isn't socialism just communism plus democracy?  In the sense that communism is about collective ownership, and not political structures, I don't see the conflict there.  Communism is the opposite of capitalism, not the opposite of democracy.

I think it's easy to find fatal flaws with 20th century communist states (such as the mass murders mentioned above).  It's less easy to find fatal flaws with the idea of collective ownership of economic assets.  At least in some situations, I think collective ownership by all citizens makes more sense than private ownership.  Capitalism's devotion to private ownership has certainly generated its fair share of problems, too.

They're very different ideas at their core.

In a communist system there is no private ownership of anything.  You are given what the state determines you need, you work the job the state determines you are suited for.  It's the extreme opposite of capitalism.

In a socialist system there is private ownership.  The government is responsible for regulating things to rein in the excesses of capitalism (an attempt to prevent extreme wealth concentration, wild market swings in price that would hurt people, etc.), but citizens are still free to choose their jobs, to amass fortunes, and to determine their own needs.

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #485 on: April 30, 2017, 07:56:13 PM »
I feel you mistake socialism with communism.

Isn't socialism just communism plus democracy?  In the sense that communism is about collective ownership, and not political structures, I don't see the conflict there.  Communism is the opposite of capitalism, not the opposite of democracy.

I think it's easy to find fatal flaws with 20th century communist states (such as the mass murders mentioned above).  It's less easy to find fatal flaws with the idea of collective ownership of economic assets.  At least in some situations, I think collective ownership by all citizens makes more sense than private ownership.  Capitalism's devotion to private ownership has certainly generated its fair share of problems, too.

They're very different ideas at their core.

In a communist system there is no private ownership of anything.  You are given what the state determines you need, you work the job the state determines you are suited for.  It's the extreme opposite of capitalism.

In a socialist system there is private ownership.  The government is responsible for regulating things to rein in the excesses of capitalism (an attempt to prevent extreme wealth concentration, wild market swings in price that would hurt people, etc.), but citizens are still free to choose their jobs, to amass fortunes, and to determine their own needs.
People are often confused because communist regimes add "socialist" to their name for PR...

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Jrr85

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #487 on: May 01, 2017, 11:27:22 AM »
Why all the hate for communism?  Is that just residual aftereffects from cold war propaganda?

Communism is an economic system, like capitalism, in which ownership is shared for mutual benefit instead of held privately for individual benefit.  It is a business model, not a government model. 

And America has lots of communist institutions that are popular, effective, and profitable.  Think of all the things that the American people own collectively, instead of individually, and try to understand WHY we've chosen to organize them that way.  I'll get you started with an easy one: national parks. Totally communist!

So I don't really have any problem with communism the economic model.  I have problems with authoritarianism and totalitarianism, which are the types of governments that have typically tried to implement economic communism, and have naturally let graft and corruption distort those noble goals.  But I don't think those are the inevitable consequence of collectively shared ownership of a resource, as our national parks highlight.  The key to successful institutions is good governance, not privately held ownership stakes.  That seems so obvious it almost seems silly to have to write it down.

But I'm sure someone here will disagree with me on that point, and argue that personal profit motive is the secret ingredient to America's success.  Those people must also bebetotally totally unconcerned with president Trump's conflicts of interest, because they WANT the president to run the nation for the benefit of his personal privately owned business interests.

"communist" does not equal "communal". 

And yes, authoritarianism/totalitarianism are pretty much inevitable with communism, as you're not going to get humans on this planet to live in a country without private ownership without also having the threat of force to make things "work". 

You can sort of have communes that work without regard to private property (at least within the group) and maybe get up to some small villages, but get any larger than that, and the personal connections necessary to replace personal incentives are too attenuated.   

talltexan

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #488 on: May 05, 2017, 02:00:29 PM »
posting to follow

surfhb

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #489 on: May 07, 2017, 07:48:50 PM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

Dude !  cmon.    A system where people are forced to go without the correct care and/or forced to go into debt is just plain evil.   

Healthcare is not a product we just offer to those who have the means. 

You sound like some twenty something kid  who hasn't had to deal with what life dishes out sometimes .  .

Sorry but I'll gladly pay so my neighbor who's mentally ill or has a preexisting condition is covered by MY taxes. 

You're too young to remember what it was like before the ACA.   You basically have no opinion which means jack dick to someone like me who's had to deal with these issue. 


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KBecks

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #490 on: May 08, 2017, 05:41:11 AM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 05:47:42 AM by KBecks »

former player

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #491 on: May 08, 2017, 06:45:41 AM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.

Not all injury or disease is due to people failing to make healthy choices.  What about people who need health care for reasons that can't possibly be described as their fault?  Is being born with a genetic defect and needing health care because of it "stealing"? Is getting a work-related injury and needing healthcare "stealing"?  Is getting old and infirm and needing health care because of it "stealing"?  Is having someone in an SUV cross the median and crash into you so that you need healthcare for your injuries "stealing"?

What about the people for whom there are compound reasons for needing health care?  What if that SUV accident broke your spine so you are in a wheelchair so you can't exercise and get a "lifestyle" disease as a result - is your need for healthcare "stealing"?

Let's suppose someone's unhealthy lifestyle has contributed to their ill health, either wholly or in part.  Who judges that?  Does the government?  Do the insurance companies?  Who says to someone "you haven't lived a healthy life, therefore you have diabetes 2, therefore we are not going to treat you"?  Would you like to do that job?  How much would you need to be paid to do that job, or would you do it for free?
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

KBecks

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #492 on: May 08, 2017, 07:37:33 AM »
Of course not.   Sometimes people are born with health issues or suffer accidents are bad luck.  That is part of life.  Life is sadly not fair or ideal, nor can we force it to be that way.

What I refer to as stealing is -- using services without paying for them.  If you go to the doctor and do not pay the doctor, and have no intention of ever paying for what you received, that is stealing and it is wrong.  You used the service, you received vital care, you are responsible for paying for it so that doctor and health care provider can continue to operate and provide services to others.   You might go into debt.  It happens.   You might file bankruptcy due to medical bills.  That happens too.  But we cannot say that people are entitled to free health care, because there is no such thing as free care.  We need to live in reality.  How would it ever be right to receive important care and then say to the provider -- screw you, I'm not paying?

No one judges someone else's health.  All I'm saying is that people are responsible for their actions and they are responsible for paying for their health care.  In that way, there is an added financial motive for people to pursue a healthy lifestyle.   Don't smoke, save on health insurance,  maintain a healthy weight, save on health insurance,  keep your blood pressure down, save on health insurance, etc.



KBecks

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #494 on: May 08, 2017, 08:11:04 AM »
What, no EMTALA?  That's the implication of your post, and even the Republican Freedom Caucus aren't talking about repealing that.

We all of us use resources all the time without paying for them.  Every time you burn fossil fuels you are using the earth's carbon sink without paying for it.

You haven't explained what is to be done about people who can't afford to pay for their own healthcare.

Your thinking seems very absolute.  This is a messy, compromised, human world in which absolutes don't exist and the desire to eliminate contradictions and compromises is more dangerous than living with them. 

Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #495 on: May 08, 2017, 08:15:16 AM »
Some articles that may be of interest

What do do when you can't pay your medical bills
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/my-money/2014/05/25/what-to-do-when-you-cant-pay-medical-bills

When patients can't pay
http://www.physicianspractice.com/medical-billing-collections/when-patients-cant-pay

What doctors do whan a patient can't pay
https://www.quora.com/What-do-doctors-do-when-a-patient-cant-pay-for-life-saving-surgery
Two articles about GP's billing uninsured patients pre-ACA and one example of EMTALA in action.  What's your point?
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

sol

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #496 on: May 08, 2017, 08:41:42 AM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.

I agree with every word of this, and I still think we need medicare-for-all style universal basic coverage.

Yes, people need to take better care of their health AND they need to have affordable guaranteed health insurance AND they need to pay for it (with taxes). 

Don't pretend that "just be healthier" is any kind of solution to America's health care crisis.  That's solving the wrong problem.  What we need is affordable care for everyone, that everyone pays for and everyone qualifies for.  No exclusions, no high risk pools, no for-profit corporations driving up cost overruns, and no freeloaders getting care for free.  Universal coverage, universally paid for.  This solution currently works in America for disability insurance and survivor insurance, and old age insurance, as well as a lot of non-traditional insurance products like national defense that we all pay for to keep us safe.  This solution is not only better for individuals, it's also better for our society as a whole.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #497 on: May 08, 2017, 09:12:17 AM »
I've been thinking along some of the same lines, and healthcare is a difficult issue. 

Everyone should take responsibility for their own health and preventative care.  IMO, this includes regular moderate excercise,  eating a reasonably healthy diet, taking safety precautions and understanding basic first aid, avoiding tobacco and heavy alcohol use.

Yet, hardly any Americans live a healthy lifestyle -- I found an article that says only 3% do.   3%!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/03/less-than-3-percent-of-americans-live-a-healthy-lifestyle/475065/

Especially as Mustachians, we should want to raise that number.  Take care of yourselves, people!  In the words of Ben Franklin, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.   And it's often much less painful.

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right.  There are no guarantees, people.  If you want products and services without paying for them, that's stealing.  You should strive to be able to take care of yourself and your family without depending on others or the government.

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/overview/

It is important to point out to people that bad lifestyle choices often result in chronic disease, and we should all do better with this.  Just as we tell people that overspending on useless crap equals spinning your wheels financially,  avoiding responsible health choices has significant negative consequences.

Many people have lots of excuses for not doing better with their health.  But that does not eliminate their responsibility to manage the things they have complete control over.  And we see people who overcome obesity and succeed all the time.  But if people view themselves as entitled victims and are trained to self-pity, well then they're stuck.

The cheapest, easiest thing you can do is live a healthy lifestyle to the best of your ability,  and build up an emergency fund.  Yes, you also need to do your best to get insurance that you can afford.  But first, take care of your eating, exercise and don't self-destruct.

I agree with every word of this, and I still think we need medicare-for-all style universal basic coverage.

Yes, people need to take better care of their health AND they need to have affordable guaranteed health insurance AND they need to pay for it (with taxes). 

Don't pretend that "just be healthier" is any kind of solution to America's health care crisis.  That's solving the wrong problem.  What we need is affordable care for everyone, that everyone pays for and everyone qualifies for.  No exclusions, no high risk pools, no for-profit corporations driving up cost overruns, and no freeloaders getting care for free.  Universal coverage, universally paid for.  This solution currently works in America for disability insurance and survivor insurance, and old age insurance, as well as a lot of non-traditional insurance products like national defense that we all pay for to keep us safe.  This solution is not only better for individuals, it's also better for our society as a whole.

I don't get the "it's not free" argument. I know it's not free. I just would rather pay for it though taxation than the current private insurance premium system. Why is that so horrific?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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pbkmaine

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #498 on: May 08, 2017, 09:12:47 AM »
Please tell my 7-year old granddaughter, who had a brain tumor that was successfully (and very expensively) treated, that she should have lived a healthier lifestyle.

MasterStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #499 on: May 08, 2017, 10:44:40 AM »

Also, health care is NOT free, it has never been free, it never will be free.   People need to understand that and not expect it as a gift or as a right. 


Affordable, quality healthcare FOR ALL should absolutely be a basic human right of every American.