Author Topic: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?  (Read 24958 times)

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #450 on: April 21, 2017, 06:53:32 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

BeginnerStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #451 on: April 21, 2017, 07:01:58 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

So a fair comparison to someone who is "fat" is someone getting into car accidents? So which car is equivalent to an underactive thyroid? How about a pregnant woman? Would a woman expecting triplets pay 3 times as much since she is 3 times as "fat?"   


MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #452 on: April 21, 2017, 07:07:14 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

So a fair comparison to someone who is "fat" is someone getting into car accidents? So which car is equivalent to an underactive thyroid? How about a pregnant woman? Would a woman expecting triplets pay 3 times as much since she is 3 times as "fat?"
It's a fair comparison because they're both more risky insurance holders, thus they should be charged more. Don't see how you don't get that. An underachieve thyroid, first off, is almost never the case when it comes to someone being fat. Even if it is a thyroid issue, it still doesn't change the fact that it's calories in vs. calories out. But, if we really wanted to stretch the comparison out, I guess the best comparison would be a legally blind driver. Sure, if they just started driving, they haven't gotten into an accident yet, but if you're a car insurance company, would you honestly not charge them more, because there's a much higher chance you'll have to pay for it?

The pregnancy comment is just stupid. Pregnancy =/= obesity.

BeginnerStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #453 on: April 21, 2017, 07:32:27 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

So a fair comparison to someone who is "fat" is someone getting into car accidents? So which car is equivalent to an underactive thyroid? How about a pregnant woman? Would a woman expecting triplets pay 3 times as much since she is 3 times as "fat?"
The pregnancy comment is just stupid. Pregnancy =/= obesity.

Actually a pregnant woman gains a considerable amount of fat during pregnancy as her body changes and prepares for the baby. So yes, they could absolutely be considered overweight and/or obese by conventional standards. And after pregnancy, since the body has adapted to natural changes, the ability to lose the weight becomes much more difficult.

Not really the same as driving a car. Not even in the same universe comparison wise.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #454 on: April 21, 2017, 07:37:35 AM »

Actually a pregnant woman gains a considerable amount of fat during pregnancy as her body changes and prepares for the baby. So yes, they could absolutely be considered overweight and/or obese by conventional standards.
Pregnancy is a temporary condition that should already be accounted for in insurance costs anyways. It's not due to bad eating habits or an unhealthy lifestyle. Huge difference.

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And after pregnancy, since the body has adapted to natural changes, the ability to lose the weight becomes much more difficult.
But still calories in vs. calories out.

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Not really the same as driving a car. Not even in the same universe comparison wise.
The original comparison is valid. A bad driver is more risk. A fat person is more risk. Both should be charged more.

If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same? If you say yes, then that's great for you, but that's not how business works.

BeginnerStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #455 on: April 21, 2017, 07:45:04 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #456 on: April 21, 2017, 07:52:39 AM »
The point of insurance is to spread the risk around a large pool of people

Changing behavior of people is definitely a good goal, but insurance shouldn't be used as a cudgel against people you are morally opposed to.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #457 on: April 21, 2017, 07:53:47 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

BeginnerStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #458 on: April 21, 2017, 07:59:04 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

Better question. Why do you believe only certain people should be provided healthcare?

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #459 on: April 21, 2017, 08:02:12 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

Better question. Why do you believe only certain people should be provided healthcare?
No, that's not a better question. It's a strawman. I never said that.

Jrr85

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #460 on: April 21, 2017, 08:24:32 AM »
The point of insurance is to spread the risk around a large pool of people

Changing behavior of people is definitely a good goal, but insurance shouldn't be used as a cudgel against people you are morally opposed to.

In order to have insurance that spreads the risk around a large pool of people, you have to have different rates for people with different risks, or you have to have a pool of people with similar risks.  Insurance is just a financial instrument. 

And it's a poor mechanism for pursuing redistribution. 

 

Gin1984

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #461 on: April 21, 2017, 08:46:40 AM »
The point of insurance is to spread the risk around a large pool of people

Changing behavior of people is definitely a good goal, but insurance shouldn't be used as a cudgel against people you are morally opposed to.

In order to have insurance that spreads the risk around a large pool of people, you have to have different rates for people with different risks, or you have to have a pool of people with similar risks.  Insurance is just a financial instrument. 

And it's a poor mechanism for pursuing redistribution.
I've only ever been on employer insurance so that has not been true IME.

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Poundwise

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #462 on: April 21, 2017, 09:04:13 AM »
My take on this all is that everyone benefits if the people around them are healthier. You don't have to pick up the slack for co-workers taking sick days or personal days to care for sick relatives, the people around you are less stressed and more pleasant, you name it. It's a good thing. 

So I'm willing to pay a little extra so that fat guy over there can get his bariatric surgery, so he can have the energy to do his job a little better. Or to improve the status of any seriously ill person so ease the burden on their caregivers. 

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #463 on: April 21, 2017, 09:06:44 AM »
My take on this all is that everyone benefits if the people around them are healthier. You don't have to pick up the slack for co-workers taking sick days or personal days to care for sick relatives, the people around you are less stressed and more pleasant, you name it. It's a good thing. 

So I'm willing to pay a little extra so that fat guy over there can get his bariatric surgery, so he can have the energy to do his job a little better. Or to improve the status of any seriously ill person so ease the burden on their caregivers.
And that's fine. But what if I'm not willing to pay a bit extra? Why should I be forced to? It's not my fault that people overeat.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #464 on: April 21, 2017, 09:14:03 AM »
My take on this all is that everyone benefits if the people around them are healthier. You don't have to pick up the slack for co-workers taking sick days or personal days to care for sick relatives, the people around you are less stressed and more pleasant, you name it. It's a good thing. 

So I'm willing to pay a little extra so that fat guy over there can get his bariatric surgery, so he can have the energy to do his job a little better. Or to improve the status of any seriously ill person so ease the burden on their caregivers.
And that's fine. But what if I'm not willing to pay a bit extra? Why should I be forced to? It's not my fault that people overeat.
We've been over this before. We all hate fat lazy people who get multiple surgeries. But since deciding who deserves to live is a slippery slope, we've kind of decided as a society to let it slide.

tyort1

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #465 on: April 21, 2017, 09:16:03 AM »
My take on this all is that everyone benefits if the people around them are healthier. You don't have to pick up the slack for co-workers taking sick days or personal days to care for sick relatives, the people around you are less stressed and more pleasant, you name it. It's a good thing. 

So I'm willing to pay a little extra so that fat guy over there can get his bariatric surgery, so he can have the energy to do his job a little better. Or to improve the status of any seriously ill person so ease the burden on their caregivers.
And that's fine. But what if I'm not willing to pay a bit extra? Why should I be forced to? It's not my fault that people overeat.

Uhm yeah.  If the law says that we all pay in so that we all get covered, then yeah you pay extra.  You can whine about it and throw a tantrum if you want, but you will pay.
Frugalite in training.

BeginnerStache

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #466 on: April 21, 2017, 09:19:02 AM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same?

Absolutely. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege for those with better genes.
Obesity is almost never a gene issue, and even when it is, you still have control of just how obese you become.

With that being said, since we disagree that healthcare is a right, I don't think we'll agree on anything that builds upon that idea. Why is it that you believe healthcare is a right?

Better question. Why do you believe only certain people should be provided healthcare?
No, that's not a better question. It's a strawman. I never said that.

Car insurance companies can drop people for deeming them too high risk. Remember the analogy you said was valid? Is it now no longer valid because it doesn't fit your agenda?

Outside of using your analogy against you, poor people who are discriminated against because of their perceived eating habits and required to pay more in healthcare premiums, will absolutely not be able to afford healthcare. And where do you draw the line  and how do you test to determine it's precisely form poor eating habits? Do you follow them into McDonalds?  What if they just gave birth and have a considerable amount of weight to lose? How much time do you give them to lose the weight? What if their child develops cancer and they have to spend their free time attending cancer treatments and therefore don't have the time to focus on diet and exercise?

And where do you in fact draw the line? My friend has a genetic pre-disposition to ALS since his mom died form it recently. Should he be charged more?

How about those serving in the military? They are certainly more likely to be injured or die, especially in combat. What about those who drive more? Sit behind a desk more often for their job? All folks making choices that increase certain health risk.

Who knew healthcare was so complex?   
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:48:32 AM by BeginnerStache »

Wexler

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #467 on: April 21, 2017, 09:43:09 AM »
African-Americans and Hispanics are at higher risk of obesity and high blood pressure. Shall we institute a black tax, too?
Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Fat people ARE fat. They aren't just risks of being fat, they already are.

Why should insurance companies not be able to charge more for that? They're higher risks.

Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

I guess that makes me an evil capitalist scum, or whatever you guys call us nowadays.

If the bill as drafted read "community rating doesn't apply for fat people (seriously, put down the cheetos, fatties)" then this analysis would be relevant.  However, the repeal of community rating and the return of charging based on pre-existing conditions doesn't just apply to fat people who you personally think deserve it.  It catches 4 year old with leukemia, premature babies, people with MS, people with breast cancer, people with anemia, people who almost died giving birth, people with sports injuries, and a whole list of other medical problems that can't easily be blamed on the sufferers.  The only relevant discussion applies to the bills under consideration, and the AHCA in various versions doesn't have special provisions for making fat people suffer while innocent children with pre-existing conditions are spared. So, we can argue until we are blue in the face about whether fat people deserve it, but the discussion we should be having is whether we should vote for people who think that people with pre-existing conditions of any kind should be charged more/denied insurance.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #468 on: April 21, 2017, 03:05:42 PM »
If you're a health insurance company, and you have two people, one that rarely ever has medical issues, and another who is in the hospital multiple times per month, would you charge them the same? If you say yes, then that's great for you, but that's not how business works.

Gee, it's almost as if the profit motive confounds the general welfare when it comes to healthcare payment and delivery. WHO KNEW!?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Poundwise

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #469 on: April 21, 2017, 04:07:45 PM »
Quote
Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

You are correct.  But you are forgetting the difference between car insurance/health insurance companies and the government.  Insurance companies are supposed to turn a profit. The government is supposed to serve the people, and make our lives better.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #470 on: April 21, 2017, 08:05:44 PM »
Quote
Let me ask you this. If you own a car insurance company, would you charge someone with a squeaky clean record for 30 years the same as someone that has been in 7 accidents in the last 2 years? Of course not.

You are correct.  But you are forgetting the difference between car insurance/health insurance companies and the government.  Insurance companies are supposed to turn a profit. The government is supposed to serve the people, and make our lives better.

For a follower of Ayn Rand, government making people's lives better goes against the individual's will as the primary agent of freedom.