Author Topic: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?  (Read 31845 times)

BeginnerStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #350 on: March 11, 2017, 07:45:57 AM »
Minimum wage is not a living wage. Good luck enticing unemployed High school dropouts to work manual labor jobs for minimum wage, long hours, little to no benefits. Not to mention it's routinely proven immigrants tend to have a much better work ethic and are more reliable. They would actually fair better at their local McDonalds.
Perfect! If the work needs to be done, then wages will rise until they are high enough to attract people to do the work. I don't see a downside with this?

Rising prices of good and services. Yeah, what could go wrong? For the workers themselves, let's just hope they never intend on starting a family. Heck at least at McDonalds there is some mobility.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #351 on: March 11, 2017, 07:54:42 AM »
Minimum wage is not a living wage. Good luck enticing unemployed High school dropouts to work manual labor jobs for minimum wage, long hours, little to no benefits. Not to mention it's routinely proven immigrants tend to have a much better work ethic and are more reliable. They would actually fair better at their local McDonalds.
Perfect! If the work needs to be done, then wages will rise until they are high enough to attract people to do the work. I don't see a downside with this?

Rising prices of good and services. Yeah, what could go wrong? For the workers themselves, let's just hope they never intend on starting a family. Heck at least at McDonalds there is some mobility.
I would happily pay more for goods and services if it meant more Americans had jobs with living wages.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

AdrianC

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #352 on: March 11, 2017, 07:55:14 AM »
Median family income is about $52k (as of 2014, might be smidge higher now). About 28% of households are over $75k (and hence 72% below) so it's sort of hard to call anything over that "middle class" by any reasonable standard.

What would you call it? Just curious. The definition of "middle class" in America has always puzzled me. If we make $250K we are what, upper middle class? Rich? "Millionaires"?

In the UK, where I come from, middle class generally means professional class and/or university educated. Engineers, teachers, nurses are middle class. Factory workers, coal miners, car mechanics, plumbers are working class. My dad was a car mechanic and machinist, mother worked in a factory cafeteria, so we were solidly working class. Never mind that my dad started his own machine shop and made more money than engineers, teachers, nurses and so on.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #353 on: March 11, 2017, 08:15:48 AM »
Median family income is about $52k (as of 2014, might be smidge higher now). About 28% of households are over $75k (and hence 72% below) so it's sort of hard to call anything over that "middle class" by any reasonable standard.

What would you call it? Just curious. The definition of "middle class" in America has always puzzled me. If we make $250K we are what, upper middle class? Rich? "Millionaires"?

In the UK, where I come from, middle class generally means professional class and/or university educated. Engineers, teachers, nurses are middle class. Factory workers, coal miners, car mechanics, plumbers are working class. My dad was a car mechanic and machinist, mother worked in a factory cafeteria, so we were solidly working class. Never mind that my dad started his own machine shop and made more money than engineers, teachers, nurses and so on.
Wouldn't a small business owner who makes that much money be considered a professional, and thus middle class? Same with a foreman at a factory or a supervisor or department head at a coal mine?
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

AdrianC

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #354 on: March 11, 2017, 09:42:42 AM »
A small business owner doing working-class type work is still working class - machinist, plumber, etc. It's not about money over there. More about background, upbringing, type of work.

ChpBstrd

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #355 on: March 11, 2017, 11:53:44 AM »
I think the US concept is more income-based than role-based, as it appears to be in the UK.

We also have a broad "unemployable" class beneath the working class which consists of addicts and people whose attitudes, personal history, untreated mental illness, or chosen cultural practices preclude them from earning money in the economy.

BeginnerStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #356 on: March 11, 2017, 05:16:42 PM »
Minimum wage is not a living wage. Good luck enticing unemployed High school dropouts to work manual labor jobs for minimum wage, long hours, little to no benefits. Not to mention it's routinely proven immigrants tend to have a much better work ethic and are more reliable. They would actually fair better at their local McDonalds.
Perfect! If the work needs to be done, then wages will rise until they are high enough to attract people to do the work. I don't see a downside with this?

Rising prices of good and services. Yeah, what could go wrong? For the workers themselves, let's just hope they never intend on starting a family. Heck at least at McDonalds there is some mobility.
I would happily pay more for goods and services if it meant more Americans had jobs with living wages.

Your willingness to pay more isn't going to provide more Americans with jobs.

iris lily

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #357 on: March 11, 2017, 08:42:02 PM »
Minimum wage is not a living wage. Good luck enticing unemployed High school dropouts to work manual labor jobs for minimum wage, long hours, little to no benefits. Not to mention it's routinely proven immigrants tend to have a much better work ethic and are more reliable. They would actually fair better at their local McDonalds.
Perfect! If the work needs to be done, then wages will rise until they are high enough to attract people to do the work. I don't see a downside with this?

Rising prices of good and services. Yeah, what could go wrong? For the workers themselves, let's just hope they never intend on starting a family. Heck at least at McDonalds there is some mobility.
I would happily pay more for goods and services if it meant more Americans had jobs with living wages.

Your willingness to pay more isn't going to provide more Americans with jobs.

But why not?

DavidAnnArbor

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 705
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #358 on: March 11, 2017, 09:26:19 PM »
Minimum wage is not a living wage. Good luck enticing unemployed High school dropouts to work manual labor jobs for minimum wage, long hours, little to no benefits. Not to mention it's routinely proven immigrants tend to have a much better work ethic and are more reliable. They would actually fair better at their local McDonalds.
Perfect! If the work needs to be done, then wages will rise until they are high enough to attract people to do the work. I don't see a downside with this?

Rising prices of good and services. Yeah, what could go wrong? For the workers themselves, let's just hope they never intend on starting a family. Heck at least at McDonalds there is some mobility.
I would happily pay more for goods and services if it meant more Americans had jobs with living wages.

Well then you should be perfectly happy to allow a surtax on incomes above $250K to subsidize the health insurance costs of people who work at low paying jobs lacking insurance benefits.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #359 on: March 12, 2017, 03:48:42 AM »
That would depend upon the numbers of course, but sure, nothing wrong with a bit more tax. I would also like to see most insurance benefits taxed at least at the level of other forms of income/benefits, even higher for Cadillac plans, and expanded medicare over higher exchange subsidies, and the elimination of the individual insurance mandate. Any thoughts I'll get what I want?
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

BeginnerStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #360 on: March 12, 2017, 06:04:48 AM »
Minimum wage is not a living wage. Good luck enticing unemployed High school dropouts to work manual labor jobs for minimum wage, long hours, little to no benefits. Not to mention it's routinely proven immigrants tend to have a much better work ethic and are more reliable. They would actually fair better at their local McDonalds.
Perfect! If the work needs to be done, then wages will rise until they are high enough to attract people to do the work. I don't see a downside with this?

Rising prices of good and services. Yeah, what could go wrong? For the workers themselves, let's just hope they never intend on starting a family. Heck at least at McDonalds there is some mobility.
I would happily pay more for goods and services if it meant more Americans had jobs with living wages.

Your willingness to pay more isn't going to provide more Americans with jobs.

But why not?

From a general perspective hyperinflation leads to more unemployment. From the perspective of assuming High School dropouts would actively seek long term employment in low cost manual labor jobs once filled by illegal immigrants, you would have to provide credible evidence this would indeed occur, be viable for the employer, and provide a net benefit to the economy. 

iris lily

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2274
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #361 on: March 12, 2017, 07:03:37 AM »
Minimum wage is not a living wage. Good luck enticing unemployed High school dropouts to work manual labor jobs for minimum wage, long hours, little to no benefits. Not to mention it's routinely proven immigrants tend to have a much better work ethic and are more reliable. They would actually fair better at their local McDonalds.
Perfect! If the work needs to be done, then wages will rise until they are high enough to attract people to do the work. I don't see a downside with this?

Rising prices of good and services. Yeah, what could go wrong? For the workers themselves, let's just hope they never intend on starting a family. Heck at least at McDonalds there is some mobility.
I would happily pay more for goods and services if it meant more Americans had jobs with living wages.

Your willingness to pay more isn't going to provide more Americans with jobs.

But why not?

From a general perspective hyperinflation leads to more unemployment. From the perspective of assuming High School dropouts would actively seek long term employment in low cost manual labor jobs once filled by illegal immigrants, you would have to provide credible evidence this would indeed occur, be viable for the employer, and provide a net benefit to the economy.
Ah, the devil is in the details. Ok.

I really do not know the the consequences of Americans taking over work from illegal aliens. We are told, often, that Americans  will not perform this labor. Something mes we are told that A,ericans will nt perform this lanor at aNY wage.

I half way think this is true.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #362 on: March 12, 2017, 08:42:33 AM »
From a general perspective hyperinflation leads to more unemployment. From the perspective of assuming High School dropouts would actively seek long term employment in low cost manual labor jobs once filled by illegal immigrants, you would have to provide credible evidence this would indeed occur, be viable for the employer, and provide a net benefit to the economy.
Ah, the devil is in the details. Ok.

I really do not know the the consequences of Americans taking over work from illegal aliens. We are told, often, that Americans  will not perform this labor. Something mes we are told that A,ericans will nt perform this lanor at aNY wage.

I half way think this is true.
A: while the argument that rasing minimum wages causes hyper inflation have been around since minimum wage discussion began, in America there has been no correlation between higher wages and hyper inflation. Study after study has shown that the former does not cause the latter. Cities and states that have higher minimum wages have not experienced drop offs in employment or runaway inflation; do you have any examples that contradict all of the examples of higher wages working?

B. Do you really think that no one would do this work? Right now Americans are garbage men and farmers and coal miners and fast food workers; all if these jobs suck. the difference is that the employers of immigrants currently are not forced to follow minimum wage laws when employing undocumented workers. Pay a wage and there would be people willing to do the work; no one is jumping at the chance to flip burgers or haul trash, but people do it everyday because the wages are worth the work. There are a lot of people saying no one would do the work, but reality shows that this is clearly unlikely.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

geekette

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1450
  • Location: Cary, NC
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #363 on: March 12, 2017, 09:24:15 AM »

B. Do you really think that no one would do this work? Right now Americans are garbage men and farmers and coal miners and fast food workers; all if these jobs suck. the difference is that the employers of immigrants currently are not forced to follow minimum wage laws when employing undocumented workers. Pay a wage and there would be people willing to do the work; no one is jumping at the chance to flip burgers or haul trash, but people do it everyday because the wages are worth the work. There are a lot of people saying no one would do the work, but reality shows that this is clearly unlikely.
I don't think you understand the difference between flipping burgers and being a migrant farmworker.  Here's an article from a few years ago about about attempting to hire NC unemployed (during the recession) to work in the fields here in NC - before offering the jobs to H-2A workers (i.e. legal wages).  If the article is behind a paywall, just the title should give you a hint how well it went.  North Carolina needed 6,500 farm workers.  Only 7 Americans stuck it out.

Another drawback - many of these farm jobs require not only back breaking work, but traveling around the region/country following work, another big difference between the jobs you cited and migrant farm work.

BeginnerStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #364 on: March 12, 2017, 09:56:58 AM »
From a general perspective hyperinflation leads to more unemployment. From the perspective of assuming High School dropouts would actively seek long term employment in low cost manual labor jobs once filled by illegal immigrants, you would have to provide credible evidence this would indeed occur, be viable for the employer, and provide a net benefit to the economy.
Ah, the devil is in the details. Ok.

I really do not know the the consequences of Americans taking over work from illegal aliens. We are told, often, that Americans  will not perform this labor. Something mes we are told that A,ericans will nt perform this lanor at aNY wage.

I half way think this is true.
A: while the argument that rasing minimum wages causes hyper inflation have been around since minimum wage discussion began, in America there has been no correlation between higher wages and hyper inflation. Study after study has shown that the former does not cause the latter. Cities and states that have higher minimum wages have not experienced drop offs in employment or runaway inflation; do you have any examples that contradict all of the examples of higher wages working?

B. Do you really think that no one would do this work? Right now Americans are garbage men and farmers and coal miners and fast food workers; all if these jobs suck. the difference is that the employers of immigrants currently are not forced to follow minimum wage laws when employing undocumented workers. Pay a wage and there would be people willing to do the work; no one is jumping at the chance to flip burgers or haul trash, but people do it everyday because the wages are worth the work. There are a lot of people saying no one would do the work, but reality shows that this is clearly unlikely.

a. Nice straw-man. That wasn't my argument. Feel free to reread my comment.

b. I think workers would have no incentive to fill these rolls. Long hours, minimal pay. Little/no benefits. And absolutely no chance of mobility. The employers themselves would struggle to maintain employees creating a host of other issues. Flipping burgers and hauling trash have mobility and often benefits. Fast food is geared towards high turn over rates. Trash men actually make good money. The bolded part is even contradictory to your assumption that workers would fill these rolls. If, as you claim, no one is lining up to flip burgers what makes you think they would line up to work a job with even less benefits?

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3198
  • Age: 9
  • Location: WA
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #365 on: March 12, 2017, 10:04:41 AM »
Most minimum wage jobs have little expectations of mobility.

former player

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2165
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #366 on: March 12, 2017, 10:43:12 AM »
One of the big problems with people in settled populations taking seasonal farm work is that it is seasonal and it is mobile.  Mobile means moving to where the work is on a regular basis and paying for accommodation where the work is.  If you are poor but have a house to live in, your income has to go to supporting that house (you can't risk losing it) and you can't afford to pay twice for accommodation, unlike a migrant worker who is only paying for accommodation where the work is.  Another problem is that if you are on benefits, you will lose them for the period you are working, and the bureaucracy involved makes coming off benefits only to go back onto them after a few weeks a chancy business: if you are living at subsistence level you can't afford for your benefits to be delayed or not paid at all.  Again, not a problem a migrant worker has.  Plus, you are moving away from your social support networks, another factor that does not apply to the migrant worker.  A significant rather than marginal increase in pay is needed if a worker is to pay twice over for accommodation while working and is to risk not being able to get back onto benefits when the job ends or not having a support network to hand if something goes wrong.

Farm work is backbreaking, yes, but so are many other jobs which local workers fill.  It's not the backbreaking nature of the work that's the problem, it's the seasonal and mobile nature of it.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #367 on: March 12, 2017, 01:51:39 PM »
There are many Americans that perform this type of work every year. I know many custom harvesters who follow grain harvests from the south of the country to the northern border, (and into Canada, iirc) every single year. (They also employee some migrant workers from south africa, who travel across a friggen ocean every year to work). They have houses and families, but every year turn out for back breaking labor to work several months away from home. I've read of people doing back breaking labor on fishing vessels (that they don't live on) for seasonal work. I'm aware of truck drivers and oil rig workers and construction workers and pipe fitters and boilermakers and sound technicians and roadies that travel far from home to do shitty work all across the country. Is picking fruit really worse or more dead end than all of these? Or does it just pay so much worse because employers can illegally hire immigrants for so much less?

All of the issues that make these jobs shitty are absolutely true, and largely the same for any of these (and many other) positions. Why do people work any of these jobs? I mean there are so many shitty jobs that require people to move around the country that if it was truly a barrier, no large infaatructure project could ever be constructed, and all seasonal jobs would be done by immigrants. Since this is clearly not the case, perhaps the type of work or the mobility is not the biggest issue with these farm jobs. The biggest  difference I can see is pay.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 01:59:19 PM by Metric Mouse »
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

BeginnerStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #368 on: March 13, 2017, 05:34:28 AM »
There are many Americans that perform this type of work every year. I know many custom harvesters who follow grain harvests from the south of the country to the northern border, (and into Canada, iirc) every single year. (They also employee some migrant workers from south africa, who travel across a friggen ocean every year to work). They have houses and families, but every year turn out for back breaking labor to work several months away from home. I've read of people doing back breaking labor on fishing vessels (that they don't live on) for seasonal work. I'm aware of truck drivers and oil rig workers and construction workers and pipe fitters and boilermakers and sound technicians and roadies that travel far from home to do shitty work all across the country. Is picking fruit really worse or more dead end than all of these? Or does it just pay so much worse because employers can illegally hire immigrants for so much less?

All of the issues that make these jobs shitty are absolutely true, and largely the same for any of these (and many other) positions. Why do people work any of these jobs? I mean there are so many shitty jobs that require people to move around the country that if it was truly a barrier, no large infaatructure project could ever be constructed, and all seasonal jobs would be done by immigrants. Since this is clearly not the case, perhaps the type of work or the mobility is not the biggest issue with these farm jobs. The biggest  difference I can see is pay.

They work the jobs you listed because the pay is higher (in some cases much higher), they offer benefits, and often require specialized education/training/license.


Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4217
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #369 on: March 13, 2017, 06:40:33 AM »
Minimum wage is not a living wage. Good luck enticing unemployed High school dropouts to work manual labor jobs for minimum wage, long hours, little to no benefits. Not to mention it's routinely proven immigrants tend to have a much better work ethic and are more reliable. They would actually fair better at their local McDonalds.
Perfect! If the work needs to be done, then wages will rise until they are high enough to attract people to do the work. I don't see a downside with this?

Rising prices of good and services. Yeah, what could go wrong? For the workers themselves, let's just hope they never intend on starting a family. Heck at least at McDonalds there is some mobility.
I would happily pay more for goods and services if it meant more Americans had jobs with living wages.

Your willingness to pay more isn't going to provide more Americans with jobs.

But why not?

From a general perspective hyperinflation leads to more unemployment. From the perspective of assuming High School dropouts would actively seek long term employment in low cost manual labor jobs once filled by illegal immigrants, you would have to provide credible evidence this would indeed occur, be viable for the employer, and provide a net benefit to the economy.
Ah, the devil is in the details. Ok.

I really do not know the the consequences of Americans taking over work from illegal aliens. We are told, often, that Americans  will not perform this labor. Something mes we are told that A,ericans will nt perform this lanor at aNY wage.

I half way think this is true.
Have you ever tried picking fruit.  I have and I doubt many Americans could do the job.  Not willing, physically able.  They don't get paid by the hour but by how much they pick.  I was young and healthy and only doing about 1/2 of what actual workers did in the same time and I had to do it for less time.

Matt

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 164
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #370 on: March 13, 2017, 06:47:17 AM »
I think Farming will be fine.  My cousins use gps guided driver-less plows and combines to ensure maximum efficiency in planting and harvesting.  Now this is from a soybean/cotton/peanut perspective not sure about other crops.  Lack of cheap (illegal) labor would likely drive more farms toward automation in my opinion.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #371 on: March 13, 2017, 08:53:28 AM »
Quote from: BeginnerStache link=topic=64130.msg1472393#msg1472393

They work the jobs you listed because the pay is higher (in some cases much higher), they offer benefits, and often require specialized education/training/license.
Exactly my point. Raise the pay and Americans will be willing to do these jobs. Not all Americans obviously, but as pay and benefits rise to meet demand for workers, it will roughly balance out.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Moustaches

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Age: 38
  • Location: DC
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #372 on: March 13, 2017, 09:18:28 AM »
Trying to switch the topic from the plight of migrant workers back to Obamacare -

What do you think of the potential for phase 2 of the republican plan where they have the secretary of HHS analyze whether they should curtail the essential benefits of health care plans.  For example, there is an argument going around about why men should pay for the healthcare of women, in particular very expensive prenatal care.

My wife and I are not having any more kids so I'd benefit under that scenario, however I don't support it because I feel a duty to support other people's kids.  In particular, one of my friends had a premature baby that had multiple surgeries and eventually died.  I find it cruel to expect people that want to have kids to have to pay more for insurance.
Live like a badass, so that later you can live like a badass.

BeginnerStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #373 on: March 13, 2017, 09:56:54 AM »
Quote from: BeginnerStache link=topic=64130.msg1472393#msg1472393

They work the jobs you listed because the pay is higher (in some cases much higher), they offer benefits, and often require specialized education/training/license.
Exactly my point. Raise the pay and Americans will be willing to do these jobs. Not all Americans obviously, but as pay and benefits rise to meet demand for workers, it will roughly balance out.

No. You keep arguing the same faulty logic.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north-carolina-needed-6500-farm-workers-only-7-americans-stuck-it-out/?utm_term=.f317aa0012c3

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/us/farmers-strain-to-hire-american-workers-in-place-of-migrant-labor.html

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1510
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #374 on: March 13, 2017, 10:29:19 AM »
Trying to switch the topic from the plight of migrant workers back to Obamacare -

What do you think of the potential for phase 2 of the republican plan where they have the secretary of HHS analyze whether they should curtail the essential benefits of health care plans.  For example, there is an argument going around about why men should pay for the healthcare of women, in particular very expensive prenatal care.

My wife and I are not having any more kids so I'd benefit under that scenario, however I don't support it because I feel a duty to support other people's kids.  In particular, one of my friends had a premature baby that had multiple surgeries and eventually died.  I find it cruel to expect people that want to have kids to have to pay more for insurance.

The bigger problem is the argument that pooled risk is somehow the big problem with health insurance.

In the hypothetical "Medicare-for-all" scenario, where everybody has the option to buy Medicare the way they buy private insurance right now, you get a huge pool of people sharing costs. Yes, healthy people get less out of it than they pay in, but that's no different than any other scenario that isn't self-pay/go fuck yourself. I really, REALLY hope that I pay more for health insurance for my lifetime than I use. If I use more than I pay in, then it means something in my life has gone catastrophically wrong. I'm OK with subsidizing people who lost the genetic lottery or got hit by a bus (although whoever owns and/or drives the bus should really pay in that instance).
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

shenlong55

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 83
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #375 on: March 13, 2017, 12:24:11 PM »
Most of the cash discounts are small percentages, somewhere between 2% and 10%.  It's really a discount for completely avoiding the costs & risks of medical billing, which can be considerable depending upon what we are talking about.  If you have a large HSA balance, and you know that an expensive procedure is soon coming, you can arrange a discount from the sponsoring hospital in advance with a cash deposit.  Even 2% would save you serious cash on a surgery.  Honestly, if there is an emergency procedure in there somewhere, it would be difficult to get a discount after the fact, but I have actually done that also.  After a certain point, though, I depend upon the high deductible insurance policy that comes with my HSA; I'm mostly talking about the more common expenses that occur in advance of hitting that deductible.  If it were still an option, I'd only carry catastrophic care with my HSA, and participate in a health cost sharing group; but the ACA prohibits me from getting a catastrophic policy and also prohibits HSA's paired with a health cost sharing group.  I'm not opposed to insurance to limit risks, but I want the option to be mostly self-insured, because it is both possible & cheaper than what the ACA now permits.  If I could just get an HSA paired with a catastrophic policy that covers anything over $50K in a single year, without also getting hit with the ACA uninsured tax, I'd do that.  I actually still can get such a catastrophic policy, it just can't legally count as medical insurance, even though I can prove that I have $50K+ of HSA funds/Roth IRA contributions that I could withdraw in a pinch.  Prior to the ACA, such a catastrophic policy was around $80 a year, as a rider to my "umbrella" insurance policy.

EDIT: I also have a set of 3 month rolling CD's, 16 in total, that function as my own unemployment insurance.  I should be able to count those funds also.

I actually still had some sympathy for this argument until now.  I hadn't done the research myself and since people are claiming that the ACA prohibits me from getting a catastrophic policy I just took them at their word.  But now you're telling me I actually still can get such a catastrophic policy?

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #376 on: March 13, 2017, 01:23:06 PM »
I thought you needed a hardship exemption to get a catastrophic policy if you are over 30 yo.

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 973
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #377 on: March 13, 2017, 01:36:54 PM »
I think you can get a catastrophic policy but you still have to pay the penalty for not having a plan that qualifies under the aca.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5003
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #378 on: March 13, 2017, 01:41:34 PM »
I think you can get a catastrophic policy but you still have to pay the penalty for not having a plan that qualifies under the aca.

The "mandate" to have health insurance was always pretty weak.  You pay a higher tax rate if you choose to go without insurance, but you also pay a higher tax rate if you choose not to have children. 

And yet for some strange reason, no one was complaining about the parenthood "mandate" like it was some sort of communist plot.

Edit:  In both cases, you actually save money by paying the extra taxes.  Kids and healthcare are expensive. That's why the government incentives them with tax breaks.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 01:47:40 PM by sol »

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #379 on: March 13, 2017, 01:55:57 PM »
I think you can get a catastrophic policy but you still have to pay the penalty for not having a plan that qualifies under the aca.

The "mandate" to have health insurance was always pretty weak.  You pay a higher tax rate if you choose to go without insurance, but you also pay a higher tax rate if you choose not to have children. 

And yet for some strange reason, no one was complaining about the parenthood "mandate" like it was some sort of communist plot.

Edit:  In both cases, you actually save money by paying the extra taxes.  Kids and healthcare are expensive. That's why the government incentives them with tax breaks.

That is because they dressed it up as a deduction for those who had kids. If the fed penalized people for every year past a certain age they went without kids, there would be mass bitching. 

However the analogy is a bit weak, since people clearly incur a boat load of financial risk when choosing to forgo health insurance. If you break your leg hiking and take a chopper off the mountain without insurance you just fell into a second mortgage.

Where as choosing not to have kids is kind of the opposite. You incur 0  financial risk by not having kids.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #380 on: March 13, 2017, 02:04:29 PM »
I think at this point with the initial proposal having been released, it looks like the OPs fears were to some degree assuaged. The question moving forward is can you afford the changes to the care system. Because all Republicans appear to be willing to do is to shift the burden of some of the costs to older people and poorer people.

But the general mandate of the ACA will remain intact. In addition at this point it doesn't seem they have enough support in the senate to pass, since at least 4 Republican's have concerns that this is still pretty much the ACA. The new bill is a repeal only by name in the media. In reality they are just ripping up a bunch of the original rules meant to help fund the law while still trying to achieve a similar outcome...

So it will cost us more money and price some poor people out of the markets, but in general the ACA will remain the new law of the land. If the manage to pass this bill or a similar one.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #381 on: March 13, 2017, 04:06:32 PM »
They don't have 60 votes and are limited on how much they can change, that is the only thing limiting them.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5003
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #382 on: March 13, 2017, 04:20:02 PM »
They don't have 60 votes and are limited on how much they can change, that is the only thing limiting them.

As we've previously discussed, republicans could repeal any and all portions of the ACA the same way they are repealing the individual mandate: leave the law but remove the penalties for noncompliance.

They are leaving many of the provisions of the ACA intact because thet WANT them intact, because they were conservative ideas to begin with and are now popular with the public.  The whole line about "we can't do more because of 60 votes" is just the smokescreen that buys them political cover for supporting policies the radical right doesn't like. 

It's all about managing perception, and they have to lie to their extremist base just like they have to lie to everyone else about the coverage being better.  It's a sort of compromise bill, and they need an excuse to give ground as part of the compromise.

In the end, I think even the hardcore conservatives will fall in line behind the GOP plan, subsidies and all, because of the abortion ban, the tax cuts for the rich, the reduction of benefits for the poor, and the permanent dismantling of Medicaid.  They will accept healthcare subsidies for rich people in order to get those passed.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #383 on: March 13, 2017, 05:43:36 PM »
The conservatives are getting a great deal, destruction of Medicaid is HUGE.  If they don't pass this they are crazy.  I am speaking as if I was a conservative.

brooklynguy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2059
  • Age: 36
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #384 on: March 13, 2017, 07:17:24 PM »
As we've previously discussed, republicans could repeal any and all portions of the ACA the same way they are repealing the individual mandate: leave the law but remove the penalties for noncompliance.

Not really -- if this were true, the budget reconciliation process would be an exception that entirely swallows the rule (and any legislation could always be passed by a simple majority alone), but it isn't.  Not every feature of the ACA is tied to a specific penalty removable through reconciliation.  The Republicans couldn't, say, eliminate the ban on using pre-existing conditions as a basis for discrimination, or the provision allowing young adults to remain on their parents' policies until age 26, because these are outright requirements of the law unrelated to revenue or spending.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5003
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #385 on: March 13, 2017, 08:00:24 PM »
The Republicans couldn't, say, eliminate the ban on using pre-existing conditions as a basis for discrimination, or the provision allowing young adults to remain on their parents' policies until age 26, because these are outright requirements of the law unrelated to revenue or spending.

Why not?  What happens if you break a law that has no penalty?  Do you think someone would sue the insurance company for punitive damages?  Otherwise, a judge would just force them to face the consequences of the violation, which in this case is... nothing.

We have lots of archaic laws still on the books that everyone ignores, either because they are deliberately not enforced or because the penalty for them has been removed.  That's how Obama decriminalized small amounts of marijuana, for example.  He just said it's no longer a priority for enforcement, and suddenly it's a meaningless "crime" unless some new administration changes the policy again.

brooklynguy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2059
  • Age: 36
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #386 on: March 13, 2017, 09:33:06 PM »
Why not?

Because the budget reconciliation process can only be used to implement legislation that is directly related to revenue or spending, which the examples mentioned in my post are not.  The individual mandate, as a contrary example, is a tax imposed on people who fail to purchase qualified coverage and don't otherwise qualify for an exception, and the elimination (or imposition) of a tax is entirely within the bounds of the reconciliation rules.  The ban on pre-existing discrimination condition, like the ban on possession of marijuana, is not, and therefore cannot be removed via budget reconciliation, even though both of these (like all laws) are toothless without enforcement to back them up.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5003
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #387 on: March 13, 2017, 10:11:28 PM »
The ban on pre-existing discrimination condition, like the ban on possession of marijuana, is not, and therefore cannot be removed via budget reconciliation

I'm not suggesting they remove it, I'm suggesting they make the penalty zero.  The individual mandate is still on the books too.  The law says everyone must have insurance, or they pay a fine.  They just removed the fine, but the law still says everyone has to have insurance.




marty998

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4344
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #388 on: March 14, 2017, 02:18:55 AM »
Reports out today from the Congressional Budget Office that TrumpCare will reduce the budget deficit by $336 billion by 2026* however it will result in an 24 million Americans no longer having health insurance.

*Not sure if that is a per annum figure, or in total over the next 10 years. Makes a difference I guess :)

I suppose out of the headline figures both sides will have more ammunition to fire at each other.

brooklynguy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2059
  • Age: 36
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #389 on: March 14, 2017, 06:40:51 AM »
I'm not suggesting they remove it, I'm suggesting they make the penalty zero.  The individual mandate is still on the books too.  The law says everyone must have insurance, or they pay a fine.  They just removed the fine, but the law still says everyone has to have insurance.

The statutory language giving rise to the individual mandate is a section of the tax code (inserted by the ACA) that says applicable individuals are required to maintain coverage or face a specified penalty.  Although the statute uses the word "penalty," the penalty is in fact a "tax" (in substance, if not in name), which is what enabled the individual mandate to pass muster in the eyes of a majority of the members of the Supreme Court when its constitutionality was challenged.  In other words, the law does not force anyone to purchase insurance; it simply charges a tax to those who don't.  You're not breaking the law by refusing to purchase insurance; you're just rendering yourself subject to an additional tax liability. The ban on using pre-existing conditions as a basis for discrimination, and the ban on possession of marijuana, on the other hand, are absolute requirements of law, unrelated to tax collection -- an insurer who refuses to issue a policy based on pre-existing conditions and an individual who possesses marijuana have both broken the law.  The litany of enforcement actions for violations of these laws no doubt includes monetary penalties, but those penalties are not taxes (and those laws are not otherwise related to tax collection, or government spending).  The budget reconciliation process can only be used to implement legislation that directly relates to tax revenue or federal spending, so Republicans could not use budget reconciliation to change those laws, even if they structured the bill as one that merely eliminates monetary fines as a remedy for violations of those laws.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #390 on: March 16, 2017, 09:13:04 AM »
I'm not suggesting they remove it, I'm suggesting they make the penalty zero.  The individual mandate is still on the books too.  The law says everyone must have insurance, or they pay a fine.  They just removed the fine, but the law still says everyone has to have insurance.

The statutory language giving rise to the individual mandate is a section of the tax code (inserted by the ACA) that says applicable individuals are required to maintain coverage or face a specified penalty.  Although the statute uses the word "penalty," the penalty is in fact a "tax" (in substance, if not in name), which is what enabled the individual mandate to pass muster in the eyes of a majority of the members of the Supreme Court when its constitutionality was challenged.  In other words, the law does not force anyone to purchase insurance; it simply charges a tax to those who don't.  You're not breaking the law by refusing to purchase insurance; you're just rendering yourself subject to an additional tax liability. The ban on using pre-existing conditions as a basis for discrimination, and the ban on possession of marijuana, on the other hand, are absolute requirements of law, unrelated to tax collection -- an insurer who refuses to issue a policy based on pre-existing conditions and an individual who possesses marijuana have both broken the law.  The litany of enforcement actions for violations of these laws no doubt includes monetary penalties, but those penalties are not taxes (and those laws are not otherwise related to tax collection, or government spending).  The budget reconciliation process can only be used to implement legislation that directly relates to tax revenue or federal spending, so Republicans could not use budget reconciliation to change those laws, even if they structured the bill as one that merely eliminates monetary fines as a remedy for violations of those laws.
I think you're talking past each other - Sol is not saying that these penalties would be removed by budget reconciliation specifically; he is simply saying Republicans do not have an absolute need to change the law to have an effect on some of the regulations that the ACA implemented.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #391 on: March 16, 2017, 09:15:20 AM »
Reports out today from the Congressional Budget Office that TrumpCare will reduce the budget deficit by $336 billion by 2026* however it will result in an 24 million Americans no longer having health insurance.

*Not sure if that is a per annum figure, or in total over the next 10 years. Makes a difference I guess :)

I suppose out of the headline figures both sides will have more ammunition to fire at each other.

Source? Looks like the headline should read "ACA increases budget deficit by $336 billion by 2026 more than ACHA."
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Moustaches

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Age: 38
  • Location: DC
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #392 on: March 16, 2017, 09:24:03 AM »
Reports out today from the Congressional Budget Office that TrumpCare will reduce the budget deficit by $336 billion by 2026* however it will result in an 24 million Americans no longer having health insurance.

*Not sure if that is a per annum figure, or in total over the next 10 years. Makes a difference I guess :)

I suppose out of the headline figures both sides will have more ammunition to fire at each other.

Source? Looks like the headline should read "ACA increases budget deficit by $336 billion by 2026 more than ACHA."

No, RyanCare does not increase the budget deficit.  It reduces the deficit because it kills Medicaid for new enrollees after 2020 and reduces the Obamacare subsidies, which more than offsets the reduction in taxes that it contains.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 11:37:39 AM by Moustaches »
Live like a badass, so that later you can live like a badass.

Axecleaver

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2851
  • Location: New York
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #393 on: March 16, 2017, 10:27:37 AM »
Medicaid. If it killed Medicare benefits, there would be geriatric rioting in the streets. All it really does is reduce the funding by repealing the ACA Medicare surtax on income over 250k. So Medicare runs out of money sooner, other than that, all benefits remain in place.

Here's a great writeup on the (minimal) changes to Medicare from KFF: http://kff.org/medicare/issue-brief/what-are-the-implications-for-medicare-of-the-american-health-care-act/

This one looks DOA, folks. The votes aren't there in the Senate. Let's consider this a conservative wish-list bill, kind of an anchoring point for worst-case scenarios, and wait and see what they come up with that actually has the votes to pass.

BeginnerStache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #394 on: March 17, 2017, 05:32:48 AM »

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #395 on: March 17, 2017, 06:47:27 AM »
I doubt this turd sandwich is DOA, not by a long shot.

Axecleaver

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2851
  • Location: New York
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #396 on: March 17, 2017, 07:34:04 AM »
Before it has the votes to pass, it will need some massive tweaks. We may see the AHCA pass someday, but not in its current form.

Moustaches

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Age: 38
  • Location: DC
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #397 on: March 17, 2017, 08:51:13 AM »
LMAO, oh the irony. Yeah nobody saw this coming....

https://thinkprogress.org/trump-health-care-admission-dd759907622f#.qqlhv8dje

Nice link.

Tonight I will toast to the continued incompetence of this administration.  So far the 2 major changes they have tried - muslim ban and trumpcare - are both failures.  If he ends up doing nothing for 4 years, I will be happy.
Live like a badass, so that later you can live like a badass.

DavidAnnArbor

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 705
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #398 on: March 17, 2017, 06:08:38 PM »

Tonight I will toast to the continued incompetence of this administration.

Malevolence tempered by incompetence

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Impending repeal of Obamacare--what to do?
« Reply #399 on: March 20, 2017, 07:07:53 AM »
Reports out today from the Congressional Budget Office that TrumpCare will reduce the budget deficit by $336 billion by 2026* however it will result in an 24 million Americans no longer having health insurance.

*Not sure if that is a per annum figure, or in total over the next 10 years. Makes a difference I guess :)

I suppose out of the headline figures both sides will have more ammunition to fire at each other.

Source? Looks like the headline should read "ACA increases budget deficit by $336 billion by 2026 more than ACHA."

No, RyanCare does not increase the budget deficit.  It reduces the deficit because it kills Medicaid for new enrollees after 2020 and reduces the Obamacare subsidies, which more than offsets the reduction in taxes that it contains.
Yes, that would be the point of the headline. The ACA would increase the deficit by 336 billion, when compared to the ACHA.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM