Author Topic: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?  (Read 8045 times)

katsiki

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Louisiana
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #100 on: April 05, 2017, 01:40:56 PM »
I am not an immigrant; I'm a US citizen.  I was born in Africa: North Africa. 

I sometime check "African-American" on the government forms (to make a statement and because I object to the classification).

I've never been asked but I can see it in their eyes they are thinking "But you don't look black".

I've had a ready reply just in case someone ever does say it out loud :)

My brother-in-law told me (he's a real estate lawyer) that on some forms for mortgages where they ask for demographic information, if you do NOT fill out the questions about race and ethnicity, the loan writers are supposed to fill in the information based on what they think. 
Quote
The final section on the 1003 – “Information for Government Reporting Purposes” – is
related to government statistics. The section is referred to as the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act
(HMDA) Section. It requests information regarding race, sex and national origin. None of this
information can be used to discriminate against the borrower, and it is at the applicant’s
discretion whether he/she completes this section. If the applicant decides not to furnish this
Mortgage Loan Origination Activities 10
(v7 | REV 2.0)
information, it will be up to the loan originator to make an “educated guess” concerning the
demographic information to report to the government
(only in regards to face-to-face
applications; not internet, mail, or telephone).

A govt agency once told me to do the same for employees on a diversity survey.  This was the "diversity department" of a state agency!  This came up because I explained that we do not collect this data on our employees.  They really wanted me to go "well, gee, she looks like she could be Asian.  He might be XYZ, etc".  It was nuts!

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3181
  • Age: 9
  • Location: WA
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #101 on: April 05, 2017, 01:53:34 PM »
I always decline to disclose anything on these surveys.

It's none of their business if I'm a black female handicapped veteran or just a average white dude with too much reddit karma.

Abe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 739
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #102 on: April 05, 2017, 07:22:30 PM »
I'm doing research using the national cancer database, and they sure do get specific on what part of Asia you are from:

These are the options for Race:
White
Black
American Indian, Aleutian, or Eskimo
Chinese
Japanese
Filipino
Hawaiian
Korean
Vietnamese
Laotian
Hmong
Kampuchean (including Khmer and Cambodian)
Thai
Asian Indian or Pakistani, NOS (formerly code 09)
Asian Indian
Pakistani
Micronesian, NOS
Chamorran
Guamanian, NOS
Polynesian, NOS
Tahitian
Samoan
Tongan
Melanesian, NOS
Fiji Islander
New Guinean
Other Asian, including Asian, NOS and Oriental, NOS
Pacific Islander, NOS
Other
Unknown

I never though of these as races, but Ethnicities within (Asian/Pacific Islander). I find the Pakistani vs. Indian "race" designations amusing since they weren't separate anythings until 1948. That's like saying Irish in Northern Ireland are a separate race from Irish in the Republic of Ireland.

Apparently ethnicities are reserved for hispanics and/or people with "Spanish" sounding names:

Non-Spanish; non-Hispanic
Mexican (includes Chicano)
Puerto Rican
Cuban
South or Central America (except Brazil)
Other specified Spanish/Hispanic origin (includes European)
Spanish, NOS; Hispanic, NOS; Latino, NOS (There is evidence other than surname or maiden name that the person is Hispanic, but he/she cannot be assigned to any category of 1 - 5)
Spanish surname only (The only evidence of the person's Hispanic origin is surname or maiden name, and there is no contrary evidence that the person is not Hispanic)
Dominican Republic
Unknown whether Spanish or not; not stated in patient record
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 07:24:29 PM by Abe »

Goldielocks

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3670
  • Location: BC
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #103 on: April 06, 2017, 02:08:03 AM »
DH used to take calls as part of tech support.   Often, the client would have to wait for a minute or two at a time, an be on the phone with him for up to 20 minutes to resolve the issue.

Client "So you are located in Canada, huh?"

DH:  "Yes, indeed".

Client "What part?"

DH:  "The west coast"

Client  "Oh,  I thought you said you were in Canada".

.....dum. dum. de. dum........


marielle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
  • Age: 24
  • Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #104 on: April 06, 2017, 06:11:20 AM »
Apparently ethnicities are reserved for hispanics and/or people with "Spanish" sounding names:

Yeah, for whatever reason the demographic questions recently changed. Now you have to answer what your race is AND ethnicity, where ethnicity is either hispanic or not hispanic. Ethnicity seems more like a cultural grouping but other than that I don't really understand the point.

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #105 on: April 06, 2017, 09:16:55 AM »
...
The tourist agencies here have published lists of strange questions from tourists,  like "when do the fjords close", and "why does the midnight sun look just like the normal sun".

When I entered the Grand Canyon park I asked the ranger what time the park closed, with a smile she said "we kick everyone out at 6pm - no the place is open 24/7, have fun".  Every park in my area closes at sundown or such. 

I was an exchange student to Australia way back in the day.  While going there with a bunch of fellow USA-ers we had a long discussion about if it would be summer or winter when the plane landed, we were not sure if "summer" was defined as the months when it is hot or the months of June/July/August.  We knew the temperature would be opposite but were unsure of the seasons name.  Is funny but did someone ever sit you down and explain that?  :-)

I mostly grew up in California and everyone outside the state thinks everyone lives in LA and surfs with movie stars.  Woman I dated for over two years always thought I was from a rich family in LA when I was actually from a lower middle class family and lived in a small ag town in Nor-Cal.  Few out of California get how big and diverse the state is. 

Years back I was on site in the Netherlands supporting a Dutch company that had hired a lot of ethnically diverse Canadians.  Ten or so of us North Americans went out to lunch one day but no one at the restaurant spoke English and none of us spoke Dutch.  One of the Canadians tried seeking French with the restaurant hostess; that worked and we got seated.  Knowing the French speaking Canadian was born and raised in Vietnam I asked if she learned French growing up (France was a colonizer of Vietnam).  This seemed a reasonable question to me but she burst out laughing and said no she learned after she moved to Montreal.  I was not able to learn in what way it was so funny (are the Vietnamese pissed at the French or did she go to a small school that had no language programs or would French be the dumbest most useless language to learn there?), but she did not seem to take personal offence. 
Be the person Mr. Rogers knows you can be.

SEAKSR

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 102
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Rainy Alaska
  • Great day for water landings!
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #106 on: April 06, 2017, 10:43:37 AM »
I was born in Alaska... I live in Alaska. I grew up in Oregon. Because of the following map (popular in most text books for our impressionable school-aged children) I have been asked "why is it so cold in Alaska, and so hot in Hawaii? They're next to each other!" and "How come they always say that Alaska is North? That's not North!"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--gtjVX_onkA/VUjYRqhKVEI/AAAAAAAAFzM/U0JgTDmud80/s1600/USA-Map-showing-50-states-compressor.jpg

Because of the Arctic Circle, I've been asked if I live in igloos, have seen polar bears, etc. Do I like the month of darkness? (in Southeast Alaska we only get down to about 6 hours of light... and it is often raining or snowing, but that not what folks are getting at).

Also, I'm white... Blonde with green eyes. But, I grew up on a reservation. To the person(s) who may or may not know Dr. Patel, I have been asked to define Indian as Casino vs. Convenience Store. For seriously. Apparently in the US it is not possible for Native Americans to own an convenience store. Neither is it possible for someone whose family might hail from the Indian Sub-Continent to own or work at a casino. Never mind that "all men created equal" jazz. Or the bootstrap fantasy. I can't wait until I am able to start traveling internationally. Maybe for others Alaska is not in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

gaja

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #107 on: April 06, 2017, 11:05:19 AM »
...
The tourist agencies here have published lists of strange questions from tourists,  like "when do the fjords close", and "why does the midnight sun look just like the normal sun".

When I entered the Grand Canyon park I asked the ranger what time the park closed, with a smile she said "we kick everyone out at 6pm - no the place is open 24/7, have fun".  Every park in my area closes at sundown or such. 

We have more than a thousand fjords, starting in south at the Swedish border with Iddefjorden, and ending in north at the Russian border with Varangerfjorden, spread over 100 000 km of coast line. Closing the fjords can only be done by closing our entire border (land and sea). And that doesn't count the fjords in Svalbard, etc. 90 % of the towns are located at or in a fjord. So I'm pretty sure that tourist had already crossed at least one fjord, and/or would see one if he looked out the window.
Travelling southern Norway, Iceland and the Faroes in an electric car: http://travelelectric.blogspot.no/

Daisy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1297
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #108 on: April 06, 2017, 09:08:23 PM »
Apparently ethnicities are reserved for hispanics and/or people with "Spanish" sounding names:

Yeah, for whatever reason the demographic questions recently changed. Now you have to answer what your race is AND ethnicity, where ethnicity is either hispanic or not hispanic. Ethnicity seems more like a cultural grouping but other than that I don't really understand the point.

Well, I don't  know how it is for other ethnicities, but the way the term hispanic is used can be confusing, because it really is not a race. I guess it depends on what the questions are intended to bring out in the survey above.

For example, Cubans can be black, white, middle eastern (lots of Lebanese), Chinese origin, and of course the native Cuban people before everyone else arrived.

I am not sure how I would answer the survey above as I was born American of Cuban born parents, of Spanish born grandparents. It seems like I'd hit at least 3 of the categories in that survey.

I do get a lot of "you don't look hispanic" comments in other parts of the US and it kind of pisses me off,  but I realize it's more people's unfamiliarity with the wide range of people that consider themselves hispanic.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 11:10:31 PM by Daisy »

gaja

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #109 on: April 07, 2017, 06:24:18 AM »
Why do you need those etnicity categories? I get that it can be interesting in some types of statistics, but it seems like you collect that data for anything and everything. I can't remember ever being asked those questions in the Nordic countries. For my little family, it would look really weird, since my daughters identify as indigenous (Sami), while neither my husband nor I do.
Travelling southern Norway, Iceland and the Faroes in an electric car: http://travelelectric.blogspot.no/

nnls

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 790
  • Location: Perth, AU
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #110 on: April 07, 2017, 06:28:52 AM »
Why do you need those etnicity categories? I get that it can be interesting in some types of statistics, but it seems like you collect that data for anything and everything. I can't remember ever being asked those questions in the Nordic countries. For my little family, it would look really weird, since my daughters identify as indigenous (Sami), while neither my husband nor I do.

This is probably a stupid question but how can your children be Indigenous if you and your husband arent?

farfromfire

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #111 on: April 07, 2017, 07:26:43 AM »
Why do you need those etnicity categories? I get that it can be interesting in some types of statistics, but it seems like you collect that data for anything and everything. I can't remember ever being asked those questions in the Nordic countries. For my little family, it would look really weird, since my daughters identify as indigenous (Sami), while neither my husband nor I do.
Not sure what your feelings are on the subject, and it's not my fight, so sorry if I come off as insensitive with this post:

Perhaps if certain Nordic governments collected statistics and information about Sami they would pay more attention to Sami needs and at least make an effort to reduce discrimination against them.

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #112 on: April 07, 2017, 08:26:14 AM »
...
The tourist agencies here have published lists of strange questions from tourists,  like "when do the fjords close", and "why does the midnight sun look just like the normal sun".

When I entered the Grand Canyon park I asked the ranger what time the park closed, with a smile she said "we kick everyone out at 6pm - no the place is open 24/7, have fun".  Every park in my area closes at sundown or such. 

We have more than a thousand fjords, starting in south at the Swedish border with Iddefjorden, and ending in north at the Russian border with Varangerfjorden, spread over 100 000 km of coast line. Closing the fjords can only be done by closing our entire border (land and sea). And that doesn't count the fjords in Svalbard, etc. 90 % of the towns are located at or in a fjord. So I'm pretty sure that tourist had already crossed at least one fjord, and/or would see one if he looked out the window.

:-)  I was assuming "when do the fjords close" was not as dumb as that ie referring to a fjord in front of the asker. 

As for closing the border, the US is working on that one :-(
Be the person Mr. Rogers knows you can be.

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3181
  • Age: 9
  • Location: WA
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #113 on: April 07, 2017, 08:47:35 AM »
I have a coworker from Spain. He has a freckles and glorious ginger hair. Is he supposed to check the "hispanic" box?

merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2017, 09:20:54 AM »
I have a coworker from Spain. He has a freckles and glorious ginger hair. Is he supposed to check the "hispanic" box?

Yes. Hispanic is a cultural group that is generally defined as encompassing the entire Iberian peninsula, Mexico, Central and South America, plus parts of the Caribbean that were colonized by Spain and Portugal.

Your coworker is white and Hispanic. My blond-haired, blue-eyed husband and father-in-law are white and Hispanic.

Ronaldinho is black and Hispanic. Evo Morales is indigenous and Hispanic.

However, only Ronaldinho and Evo Morales are Latino (or "latinx", which seems to be preferred?). That term typically excludes the Iberian peninsula to focus on the colonized areas of the Western Hemisphere.

gaja

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2017, 10:24:16 AM »
Why do you need those etnicity categories? I get that it can be interesting in some types of statistics, but it seems like you collect that data for anything and everything. I can't remember ever being asked those questions in the Nordic countries. For my little family, it would look really weird, since my daughters identify as indigenous (Sami), while neither my husband nor I do.

This is probably a stupid question but how can your children be Indigenous if you and your husband arent?
Because the definition of Sami is that you have at least one great grandparent who was Sami, and that you self identify as Sami. My husband is at least 1/4 Sami, but due to the old discrimination he has lost the identity (it was not something their family would speak about). Our girls have grown up learning to be proud of their heritage, and have managed to get their grandmother to speak about it again.

Why do you need those etnicity categories? I get that it can be interesting in some types of statistics, but it seems like you collect that data for anything and everything. I can't remember ever being asked those questions in the Nordic countries. For my little family, it would look really weird, since my daughters identify as indigenous (Sami), while neither my husband nor I do.
Not sure what your feelings are on the subject, and it's not my fight, so sorry if I come off as insensitive with this post:

Perhaps if certain Nordic governments collected statistics and information about Sami they would pay more attention to Sami needs and at least make an effort to reduce discrimination against them.
Why? How? As it is, we have plenty of information to show us there are problems. The Sami parliament has described those problems, and what they think are some of the solutions. We need to focus on implementing the solutions, not on more data gathering. When the Sami Parliament tells us that we should not use their reindeer grazing areas for gold mines, it makes no difference whether there are 10 000 or 12 000 Sami people 1600 km away in Oslo, and which bank they choose. To preserve the south sami language, the last school has to be kept, although we only know about 300 language users. Would it make a difference if there were 471 known language users? No.

Daily discrimination and racism is a big problem. But I don't see how registering random data will help? Especially since there is no reliable way you can tell a Norwegian and a Sami person apart visually. These three guys show some of the variation:  https://digitaltmuseum.no/011013407743/roland-bonaparte-sin-samling-portrett-av-jon-aslaksen-mienna-aslak-jonsen?i=12 Some of the worst slurs come from people who are in fact trying to hide that they have Sami background.
Travelling southern Norway, Iceland and the Faroes in an electric car: http://travelelectric.blogspot.no/

craiglepaige

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 643
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2017, 11:21:07 AM »
I have a coworker from Spain. He has a freckles and glorious ginger hair. Is he supposed to check the "hispanic" box?

Yes. Hispanic is a cultural group that is generally defined as encompassing the entire Iberian peninsula, Mexico, Central and South America, plus parts of the Caribbean that were colonized by Spain and Portugal.

Your coworker is white and Hispanic. My blond-haired, blue-eyed husband and father-in-law are white and Hispanic.

Ronaldinho is black and Hispanic. Evo Morales is indigenous and Hispanic.

However, only Ronaldinho and Evo Morales are Latino (or "latinx", which seems to be preferred?). That term typically excludes the Iberian peninsula to focus on the colonized areas of the Western Hemisphere.

Are you defining "White / Black / Indigenous Hispanic" based only on their physical attributes and/or the options given in government forms?

Over the years I've simplified these designations to three categories:

Spanish/Español - People from Spain (España).

Hispanic/Hispano - Any spanish speaking person from a Spanish speaking country (Not Spain).

Latin/Latino - South American and Caribbean people - regardless of language.  For example, Brazilians and Haitians are latin but not Hispanics since Spanish is not their native tongue.

I don't follow the whole White-Hispanic (or other) designations. I just think at that point you get into a subdivision which gets more difficult than needed. It's unfortunate that we divide ourselves based on a piece of rock which we stand on. If we were inclusive I think life would be easier.


-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
-Don't ever mistake wealth for worth.

merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2017, 11:47:50 AM »
Are you defining "White / Black / Indigenous Hispanic" based only on their physical attributes and/or the options given in government forms?

For my family, Ronaldinho and Evo Morales, I used what they themselves have stated as their identity. This is also consistent with US census data, except that US forms would use "American Indian" while Bolivian ones use "Indigenous" ("indígeno/a"), but both terms mean "of a racial group native to North and South America".

Technically, Ronaldinho's racial and ethnic identity is rooted in Brazilian conventions for those groups, which are different than US ones and not something I'm familiar enough with to explain. But he has self-identified as "black", specifically around racial slights he suffered while playing in La Liga in Spain.

I don't know how Paul's coworker self-identifies, but someone who is fair and has red hair is generally understood to be white. He would be considered "Hispanic" according to most definitions because he is from Spain.

Over the years I've simplified these designations to three categories:

Spanish/Español - People from Spain (España).

Hispanic/Hispano - Any spanish speaking person from a Spanish speaking country (Not Spain).

Latin/Latino - South American and Caribbean people - regardless of language.  For example, Brazilians and Haitians are latin but not Hispanics since Spanish is not their native tongue.

I have also heard these same definitions, but they are not the most common or what is used by the US census.

The definition of Hispanic or Latino Origin used in the 2010 Census is: “Hispanic or Latino” refers to a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.

The main difference that I see with your definitions as opposed to most common ones is separating people from Spain from the larger Hispanic group.

It is somewhat more common to exclude Portuguese and Brazilians from "Hispanic", but to include Brazilians in "Latino". This ends up getting weird fast if the definitions include Spain and its colonies, plus Brazil, but exclude Portugal.

I don't follow the whole White-Hispanic (or other) designations. I just think at that point you get into a subdivision which gets more difficult than needed. It's unfortunate that we divide ourselves based on a piece of rock which we stand on. If we were inclusive I think life would be easier.

It might help you to think of this not as breaking down the pie into ever-smaller pieces, but as different ways to slice the pie in ways that make different kinds of research possible.

For example, if you are looking into hemophilia and malaria resistance, you care much more about someone's race than their ethnic group. You would want to look at Michelle Obama, Ronaldinho and Nelson Mandela, but not Jill Biden, Ronaldo or Oscar Pistorius. It doesn't matter if those groups don't make sense from a cultural perspective, you care about genetics.

On the other hand, let's say you were looking at what factors impact success at school. If the data showed that Hispanic children across all races are behind their non-Hispanic counterparts, you might make a conclusion that points to cultural factors (rates of English spoken in the home) rather than racial ones. That might lead to a solution around English Language Learning programs. If you treated Hispanic as a racial group, you might miss this because of data noise around the interplay of race and ethnicity.

craiglepaige

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 643
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2017, 12:28:31 PM »
Are you defining "White / Black / Indigenous Hispanic" based only on their physical attributes and/or the options given in government forms?

For my family, Ronaldinho and Evo Morales, I used what they themselves have stated as their identity. This is also consistent with US census data, except that US forms would use "American Indian" while Bolivian ones use "Indigenous" ("indígeno/a"), but both terms mean "of a racial group native to North and South America".

Technically, Ronaldinho's racial and ethnic identity is rooted in Brazilian conventions for those groups, which are different than US ones and not something I'm familiar enough with to explain. But he has self-identified as "black", specifically around racial slights he suffered while playing in La Liga in Spain.

I don't know how Paul's coworker self-identifies, but someone who is fair and has red hair is generally understood to be white. He would be considered "Hispanic" according to most definitions because he is from Spain.

Over the years I've simplified these designations to three categories:

Spanish/Español - People from Spain (España).

Hispanic/Hispano - Any spanish speaking person from a Spanish speaking country (Not Spain).

Latin/Latino - South American and Caribbean people - regardless of language.  For example, Brazilians and Haitians are latin but not Hispanics since Spanish is not their native tongue.

I have also heard these same definitions, but they are not the most common or what is used by the US census.

The definition of Hispanic or Latino Origin used in the 2010 Census is: “Hispanic or Latino” refers to a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.

The main difference that I see with your definitions as opposed to most common ones is separating people from Spain from the larger Hispanic group.

It is somewhat more common to exclude Portuguese and Brazilians from "Hispanic", but to include Brazilians in "Latino". This ends up getting weird fast if the definitions include Spain and its colonies, plus Brazil, but exclude Portugal.

I don't follow the whole White-Hispanic (or other) designations. I just think at that point you get into a subdivision which gets more difficult than needed. It's unfortunate that we divide ourselves based on a piece of rock which we stand on. If we were inclusive I think life would be easier.

It might help you to think of this not as breaking down the pie into ever-smaller pieces, but as different ways to slice the pie in ways that make different kinds of research possible.

For example, if you are looking into hemophilia and malaria resistance, you care much more about someone's race than their ethnic group. You would want to look at Michelle Obama, Ronaldinho and Nelson Mandela, but not Jill Biden, Ronaldo or Oscar Pistorius. It doesn't matter if those groups don't make sense from a cultural perspective, you care about genetics.

On the other hand, let's say you were looking at what factors impact success at school. If the data showed that Hispanic children across all races are behind their non-Hispanic counterparts, you might make a conclusion that points to cultural factors (rates of English spoken in the home) rather than racial ones. That might lead to a solution around English Language Learning programs. If you treated Hispanic as a racial group, you might miss this because of data noise around the interplay of race and ethnicity.

Good points.

If you are ever in/near Cleveland, Ohio, una cerveza por mi.
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
-Don't ever mistake wealth for worth.

farfromfire

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 75
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2017, 03:01:38 PM »
Why do you need those etnicity categories? I get that it can be interesting in some types of statistics, but it seems like you collect that data for anything and everything. I can't remember ever being asked those questions in the Nordic countries. For my little family, it would look really weird, since my daughters identify as indigenous (Sami), while neither my husband nor I do.
Not sure what your feelings are on the subject, and it's not my fight, so sorry if I come off as insensitive with this post:

Perhaps if certain Nordic governments collected statistics and information about Sami they would pay more attention to Sami needs and at least make an effort to reduce discrimination against them.
Why? How? As it is, we have plenty of information to show us there are problems. The Sami parliament has described those problems, and what they think are some of the solutions. We need to focus on implementing the solutions, not on more data gathering. When the Sami Parliament tells us that we should not use their reindeer grazing areas for gold mines, it makes no difference whether there are 10 000 or 12 000 Sami people 1600 km away in Oslo, and which bank they choose. To preserve the south sami language, the last school has to be kept, although we only know about 300 language users. Would it make a difference if there were 471 known language users? No.

Daily discrimination and racism is a big problem. But I don't see how registering random data will help? Especially since there is no reliable way you can tell a Norwegian and a Sami person apart visually. These three guys show some of the variation:  https://digitaltmuseum.no/011013407743/roland-bonaparte-sin-samling-portrett-av-jon-aslaksen-mienna-aslak-jonsen?i=12 Some of the worst slurs come from people who are in fact trying to hide that they have Sami background.
Again, apologies for my ignorance - what I meant is that sometimes statistics collection can be vital to showing people that this racism exists and has real effects*, whether by monitoring the different health outcomes of Sami and non-Sami, employment rates, etc. Perhaps such statistics can be used by special interest groups campaigning for Sami rights, in order to pressure the governments to care about these issues?

As said above by other users, this can also be relevant when monitoring diseases, this can also be relevant to medical research.

* Verbal attacks can have real effects as well, but many privileged people easily discount them.

neverrun

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 202
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #120 on: April 07, 2017, 06:12:00 PM »
Per a friend in Costa Rica where we were both spending a semester abroad.

Tico:  Where are you from
Friend:  The USA.
Tico:  No where are you from
Friend:  Arizona
Tico:  No where are you from
Friend:  Well my grandparents emigrated to the US from Mexico, but both my parents and I were born in Arizona.
Tico:  So you are Mexican.

nnls

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 790
  • Location: Perth, AU
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #121 on: April 07, 2017, 06:42:24 PM »
Why do you need those etnicity categories? I get that it can be interesting in some types of statistics, but it seems like you collect that data for anything and everything. I can't remember ever being asked those questions in the Nordic countries. For my little family, it would look really weird, since my daughters identify as indigenous (Sami), while neither my husband nor I do.

This is probably a stupid question but how can your children be Indigenous if you and your husband arent?
Because the definition of Sami is that you have at least one great grandparent who was Sami, and that you self identify as Sami. My husband is at least 1/4 Sami, but due to the old discrimination he has lost the identity (it was not something their family would speak about). Our girls have grown up learning to be proud of their heritage, and have managed to get their grandmother to speak about it again.

Why do you need those etnicity categories? I get that it can be interesting in some types of statistics, but it seems like you collect that data for anything and everything. I can't remember ever being asked those questions in the Nordic countries. For my little family, it would look really weird, since my daughters identify as indigenous (Sami), while neither my husband nor I do.
Not sure what your feelings are on the subject, and it's not my fight, so sorry if I come off as insensitive with this post:

Perhaps if certain Nordic governments collected statistics and information about Sami they would pay more attention to Sami needs and at least make an effort to reduce discrimination against them.
Why? How? As it is, we have plenty of information to show us there are problems. The Sami parliament has described those problems, and what they think are some of the solutions. We need to focus on implementing the solutions, not on more data gathering. When the Sami Parliament tells us that we should not use their reindeer grazing areas for gold mines, it makes no difference whether there are 10 000 or 12 000 Sami people 1600 km away in Oslo, and which bank they choose. To preserve the south sami language, the last school has to be kept, although we only know about 300 language users. Would it make a difference if there were 471 known language users? No.

Daily discrimination and racism is a big problem. But I don't see how registering random data will help? Especially since there is no reliable way you can tell a Norwegian and a Sami person apart visually. These three guys show some of the variation:  https://digitaltmuseum.no/011013407743/roland-bonaparte-sin-samling-portrett-av-jon-aslaksen-mienna-aslak-jonsen?i=12 Some of the worst slurs come from people who are in fact trying to hide that they have Sami background.

Thanks for the explanation of the Sami definition. 

Gone_Hiking

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Location: Arizona
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #122 on: April 07, 2017, 08:06:22 PM »
Tico:  Where are you from
Friend:  The USA.
Tico:  No where are you from
Friend:  Arizona
Tico:  No where are you from
Friend:  Well my grandparents emigrated to the US from Mexico, but both my parents and I were born in Arizona.
Tico:  So you are Mexican.

I happen to be Polish - as in Polish straight from the old country.

Ten years ago, in Texas: "Isn't Poland still communist"?
Fifteen years ago, in North Carolina:  "Still speaking with that accent?"
Twenty five years ago, on a university campus: "Do you speak German in your country, or do you have some native dialect?"
Twenty-seven years ago, in a very small town in Idaho: "Do you have toilet paper?"

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5104
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #123 on: April 08, 2017, 05:43:18 AM »
...
The tourist agencies here have published lists of strange questions from tourists,  like "when do the fjords close", and "why does the midnight sun look just like the normal sun".

When I entered the Grand Canyon park I asked the ranger what time the park closed, with a smile she said "we kick everyone out at 6pm - no the place is open 24/7, have fun".  Every park in my area closes at sundown or such. 

I was an exchange student to Australia way back in the day.  While going there with a bunch of fellow USA-ers we had a long discussion about if it would be summer or winter when the plane landed, we were not sure if "summer" was defined as the months when it is hot or the months of June/July/August.  We knew the temperature would be opposite but were unsure of the seasons name.  Is funny but did someone ever sit you down and explain that?  :-)

Last year, I landed back in Australia (I'm Australian, but we came from LA, and everyone around me had US accents) on 21st June. About an hour before we landed, the university student behind me was telling her seat mates that they would really love Sydney, because it was light at 5am each day there. When I pointed out that it wouldn't be light until considerably later on the shortest day of the year, and the middle of winter, my seat mates asked me to confirm what I had said - from what they said, I suspect they thought it was the middle of summer.



RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5623
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #124 on: April 09, 2017, 09:00:52 AM »
Last year, I landed back in Australia (I'm Australian, but we came from LA, and everyone around me had US accents) on 21st June. About an hour before we landed, the university student behind me was telling her seat mates that they would really love Sydney, because it was light at 5am each day there. When I pointed out that it wouldn't be light until considerably later on the shortest day of the year, and the middle of winter, my seat mates asked me to confirm what I had said - from what they said, I suspect they thought it was the middle of summer.

Non-science students.

I love this map.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/ontario's-own-camp-mustache-2017/ - MEET US THERE!

Abe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 739
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #125 on: April 09, 2017, 09:21:18 PM »
That map's obviously wrong, because Antartica would've slipped off the top of the globe by now!


Psychstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #126 on: April 09, 2017, 09:35:40 PM »

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5623
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2017, 08:37:05 AM »
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/ontario's-own-camp-mustache-2017/ - MEET US THERE!

shelivesthedream

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1604
  • Location: UK
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #128 on: April 11, 2017, 02:41:32 AM »
This thread has got me thinking about something and it's kind of a weird question but I hope you'll understand what I'm getting at:

How come some people never ever lose their accent in their second language? Like, imagine you spoke French from 0-18 then moved to England and only ever spoke English and you were now 65 and still had a French accent. I just can't imagine how you wouldn't ever lose the accent.

Even if I moved to Wales I'd probably end up picking up a slight accent after living there for a few decades. If I moved to Poland and had to learn Polish from scratch and never ever spoke English again, I can't imagine still having accented Polish after forty years.

Is it something physiological? Is it different depending on the age when you learnt your second language? Are some people just accent-deaf?

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5104
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #129 on: April 11, 2017, 03:02:57 AM »
This thread has got me thinking about something and it's kind of a weird question but I hope you'll understand what I'm getting at:

How come some people never ever lose their accent in their second language? Like, imagine you spoke French from 0-18 then moved to England and only ever spoke English and you were now 65 and still had a French accent. I just can't imagine how you wouldn't ever lose the accent.

Even if I moved to Wales I'd probably end up picking up a slight accent after living there for a few decades. If I moved to Poland and had to learn Polish from scratch and never ever spoke English again, I can't imagine still having accented Polish after forty years.

Is it something physiological? Is it different depending on the age when you learnt your second language? Are some people just accent-deaf?
It really depends on you and the people you are interacting with. A friend went to London for number of years. When he came back to Australia, we all thought he had an English accent (with no Australian overtones), while the people he had interacted with in London knew he still had an Australian accent. Each language has certain sounds that are limited to very few languages, so it is difficult for an adult even to hear the sound - let alone to reproduce it. It doesn't matter how long a New Zealander has lived in Australia - we can still recognise their accent - one of my friends came over when he was 11, and would now be in his 60s and he still has a NZ accent!



merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #130 on: April 11, 2017, 09:27:52 AM »
This thread has got me thinking about something and it's kind of a weird question but I hope you'll understand what I'm getting at:

How come some people never ever lose their accent in their second language? Like, imagine you spoke French from 0-18 then moved to England and only ever spoke English and you were now 65 and still had a French accent. I just can't imagine how you wouldn't ever lose the accent.

Even if I moved to Wales I'd probably end up picking up a slight accent after living there for a few decades. If I moved to Poland and had to learn Polish from scratch and never ever spoke English again, I can't imagine still having accented Polish after forty years.

Is it something physiological? Is it different depending on the age when you learnt your second language? Are some people just accent-deaf?

I think a lot of people do. I can think of multiple family members/acquaintances who are non-native English speakers but don't have a discernible accent.

Specifically, I'm thinking about my FIL and his brother. They moved to the US at ages 15 and 14 (I think). FIL has a noticeable but not strong accent, Uncle has basically no accent.

Is it because of the (slight) age difference? Is it because Uncle is generally more social/talkative? Is it because Uncle just has some innate language ability that FIL doesn't have?

This is more regional, but I lived in various parts of the US when I was young and moved to Minnesota when I was 11. When I moved here, I could hear the differences between my speech and my peers. When I was 18-22, I was repeatedly told that I definitely didn't have a "Minnesotan" accent. Now (31) I'm told by east coast coworkers that I do. I have no idea if that's true or not.

(Translation for Brits: It's like if I was born in Swindon, lived in Southampton, London and Leicester and then moved to Sheffield.)

ketchup

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Age: 26
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #131 on: April 11, 2017, 09:42:14 AM »
This thread has got me thinking about something and it's kind of a weird question but I hope you'll understand what I'm getting at:

How come some people never ever lose their accent in their second language? Like, imagine you spoke French from 0-18 then moved to England and only ever spoke English and you were now 65 and still had a French accent. I just can't imagine how you wouldn't ever lose the accent.

Even if I moved to Wales I'd probably end up picking up a slight accent after living there for a few decades. If I moved to Poland and had to learn Polish from scratch and never ever spoke English again, I can't imagine still having accented Polish after forty years.

Is it something physiological? Is it different depending on the age when you learnt your second language? Are some people just accent-deaf?
It really depends on you and the people you are interacting with. A friend went to London for number of years. When he came back to Australia, we all thought he had an English accent (with no Australian overtones), while the people he had interacted with in London knew he still had an Australian accent. Each language has certain sounds that are limited to very few languages, so it is difficult for an adult even to hear the sound - let alone to reproduce it. It doesn't matter how long a New Zealander has lived in Australia - we can still recognise their accent - one of my friends came over when he was 11, and would now be in his 60s and he still has a NZ accent!
I had a friend in high school who's dad was born in the UK and moved to the US in his 20s.  Everyone in the US (myself included) would say he had a very UK accent.  But when he went back there to visit, the Brits would say he had an American accent.  It makes sense on one level but on another it is downright baffling.

Granted, I also know someone that was in Australia for a few months and came back talking at least 10% Aussie to my ears, so there is that too.

bwall

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #132 on: April 11, 2017, 10:03:37 AM »
This thread has got me thinking about something and it's kind of a weird question but I hope you'll understand what I'm getting at:

How come some people never ever lose their accent in their second language? Like, imagine you spoke French from 0-18 then moved to England and only ever spoke English and you were now 65 and still had a French accent. I just can't imagine how you wouldn't ever lose the accent.

Even if I moved to Wales I'd probably end up picking up a slight accent after living there for a few decades. If I moved to Poland and had to learn Polish from scratch and never ever spoke English again, I can't imagine still having accented Polish after forty years.

Is it something physiological? Is it different depending on the age when you learnt your second language? Are some people just accent-deaf?

I made the same observation when I lived in Europe and came to the following conclusions:

One huge factor is the age in which you learn the 'new' language. Those who learn before puberty are generally able to speak accent-free.

AND

Ability and talent. No other way to put it. Some people can dunk basketballs; even lots of 'regular' kids in High School. No amount of practice ever helped me dunk a basketball no matter how I tried.

However, with lots of hard work and effort I was able to grind most of the American accent off of my German even though I didn't start learning until age 19. I had lived in Austria and Bavaria and could convince non-Bavarian Germans that I was from Bavaria if there was a little background noise in the room. I could never pull this off with a real Bavarian, though. Since moving back to the USA, though, my American accent is back whenever I speak German, even though I speak it everyday with work :(

Shinplaster

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 872
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
  • The ghost in the corner
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #133 on: April 11, 2017, 10:46:49 AM »
+1 to age being a factor I think.  DH is Czech - came to Canada when he was 16, and still has a slight accent after 40 years here.  His brother is 3 years younger, and his sister is 6 years younger.  Brother has a tiny accent only on a few words.  Sister has no accent whatsoever.  DH thinks he has no accent, and is always surprised when people ask him where he's from.

craiglepaige

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 643
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #134 on: April 11, 2017, 10:52:34 AM »
I believe the biggest factor in carrying an accent for the rest of your life is the age in which you learned the second language and how quickly you "outgrew" your first.  I came to the US in '94. I still have an accent. My younger brother who was 6yo at the time does not.

The outgrowing part is the everyday use of the language. I would say it took me until I was about 21yo to speak/use English more than Spanish on a regular basis. So although I knew English, it wasn't my main language even though I was in the US.
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
-Don't ever mistake wealth for worth.

craiglepaige

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 643
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #135 on: April 11, 2017, 10:58:54 AM »
Another example regarding language is the fact that I have what is called "Frenillo Lingual" (Google translate shows "Bridle Tongue" as the English translation but it's description it's rather incorrect imo) which means I can't roll my R's in Spanish.  Which kind of sucks lol.

I had the operation to remove the tendon (?) underneath my tongue in order to be able to roll my R's when I was about 5yo, but even with the operation and linguistic therapy, I couldn't/can't. Apparently my mind can't break the habit.  Crazy how that works.
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
-Don't ever mistake wealth for worth.

ketchup

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Age: 26
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #136 on: April 11, 2017, 11:05:05 AM »
I believe the biggest factor in carrying an accent for the rest of your life is the age in which you learned the second language and how quickly you "outgrew" your first.  I came to the US in '94. I still have an accent. My younger brother who was 6yo at the time does not.

The outgrowing part is the everyday use of the language. I would say it took me until I was about 21yo to speak/use English more than Spanish on a regular basis. So although I knew English, it wasn't my main language even though I was in the US.
It definitely varies person to person though.  I work with a guy in his 30s that has been in the US for 20 years and knew English for years before that, but still has a rather thick (and awesome) Slovak accent.  Amusingly, he'll poke fun at a different coworker with a New Jersey accent (we work in the Chicago area) and the way she says words like orange (are-ange).

caffeine

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #137 on: April 11, 2017, 11:08:30 AM »
Another example regarding language is the fact that I have what is called "Frenillo Lingual" (Google translate shows "Bridle Tongue" as the English translation but it's description it's rather incorrect imo) which means I can't roll my R's in Spanish.  Which kind of sucks lol.

I had the operation to remove the tendon (?) underneath my tongue in order to be able to roll my R's when I was about 5yo, but even with the operation and linguistic therapy, I couldn't/can't. Apparently my mind can't break the habit.  Crazy how that works.

By tendon, did you have your tongue clipped (when you  have extra flesh connecting your tongue to the bottom of your mouth)? I had that done and had trouble with my R's. It was a terrible pain when the doctor clipped it, and it took me years until I learned how to curl my tongue to make the R sound correctly. Instead, I was replacing the R with a W sound. I think I had mine done in '91 or '92.

When I was in school, I had a friend studying for speech therapy. She said that I was lucky to have the procedure done because they've stopped doing it.

I attempted Spanish as my second language, but I never figured out how to roll my R's. That made me pretty discouraged.

dougules

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 705
  • Location: AL
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #138 on: April 11, 2017, 11:11:09 AM »
Another example regarding language is the fact that I have what is called "Frenillo Lingual" (Google translate shows "Bridle Tongue" as the English translation but it's description it's rather incorrect imo) which means I can't roll my R's in Spanish.  Which kind of sucks lol.

I had the operation to remove the tendon (?) underneath my tongue in order to be able to roll my R's when I was about 5yo, but even with the operation and linguistic therapy, I couldn't/can't. Apparently my mind can't break the habit.  Crazy how that works.

Join the club with us native English speakers.  My lingual frenulum is just fine, but no amount of trying seems to get to being able to roll my R's in Spanish.  "Perro rojo" generally comes out like somebody is crushing gravel.  I'm still practicing when nobody is listening, though. 

shelivesthedream

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1604
  • Location: UK
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #139 on: April 11, 2017, 12:25:11 PM »
This is all so interesting. French is my best additional language and even though I only took it at school people used to ask me if I had French family as apparently my accent was perfect whatever-the-French-equivalent-of-RP-is.

I have a friend who I thought for ages was born in Ireland. Nope - she was born in Germany and moved to Ireland when she was 18. You would never know she wasn't a native English speaker just from listening to her.

BlueHouse

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2333
  • Location: WDC
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #140 on: April 11, 2017, 12:40:41 PM »
I had to have speech therapy when I was a child because my mouth muscles hadn't fully developed yet.  I had to practice words and sounds even though the medical advice was "when her mouth is fully developed, she will be able to make the sounds", but the speech therapists told my parents that if I wasn't moving my mouth to make those sounds, my mouth (or brain maybe?) wouldn't be able to even after the muscles developed. 

That was also just about the time that my family moved from New England to the mid-atlantic region. 
These are words that I remember as very different - both to my ears and to my new classmates

"Or"-enge v. "R"-enge  (for Orange)
"May-ry v. "Mah"-ry (for Mary)
Bayck-woods v. bahk-wards (for backwards)
Wicked Smart (you know this one)
Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand

Inaya

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 997
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2017, 01:06:42 PM »
My husband was born in Cuba, but his family moved to the US when he was 5. He speaks American English natively with no accent whatsoever. His brother, who is only about 15 months older, also speaks natively, but has a slight accent. So it's interesting how they can be so close in age but far enough apart to learn English differently.

I've always wondered if my husband has any sort of accent when he speaks Spanish, or if there is any difference between his and his brother's accents. I'll probably never know--I definitely don't speak well enough to really discern accents (although I can tell between N/C/S American and Castilian speakers), and he says he can't tell.
My Cleverly Titled Journal: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/cleverly-titled-journal/
My Cat's Facebook Page (yes, really, and I'm not above begging for likes): www.facebook.com/chicagotau
Tau now has an Instagram: www.instagram.com/chicagotau or #chicagotau
Ting referral ($25 credit!): https://zds8505smfe.ting.com/
Discover referral ($50 now and $50 after your first year!): https://refer.discover.com/s/gv3ma

craiglepaige

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 643
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2017, 01:10:01 PM »
Another example regarding language is the fact that I have what is called "Frenillo Lingual" (Google translate shows "Bridle Tongue" as the English translation but it's description it's rather incorrect imo) which means I can't roll my R's in Spanish.  Which kind of sucks lol.

I had the operation to remove the tendon (?) underneath my tongue in order to be able to roll my R's when I was about 5yo, but even with the operation and linguistic therapy, I couldn't/can't. Apparently my mind can't break the habit.  Crazy how that works.

Join the club with us native English speakers.  My lingual frenulum is just fine, but no amount of trying seems to get to being able to roll my R's in Spanish.  "Perro rojo" generally comes out like somebody is crushing gravel.  I'm still practicing when nobody is listening, though.

Ha, exactly.  I have given up altogether although I can trick the listener into thinking I said some R's correctly by the quickness in which I say the word.  But yeah, Perro Rojo will never be one of those ;)
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
-Don't ever mistake wealth for worth.

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3181
  • Age: 9
  • Location: WA
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2017, 01:11:21 PM »
I've never lived anywhere long enough to fully imprint a distinctive accent in my speech. People are confused as hell when they try to pinpoint where I'm from. I've heard guesses from South Africa to Poland.

craiglepaige

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 643
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #144 on: April 11, 2017, 01:13:08 PM »
Another example regarding language is the fact that I have what is called "Frenillo Lingual" (Google translate shows "Bridle Tongue" as the English translation but it's description it's rather incorrect imo) which means I can't roll my R's in Spanish.  Which kind of sucks lol.

I had the operation to remove the tendon (?) underneath my tongue in order to be able to roll my R's when I was about 5yo, but even with the operation and linguistic therapy, I couldn't/can't. Apparently my mind can't break the habit.  Crazy how that works.

By tendon, did you have your tongue clipped (when you  have extra flesh connecting your tongue to the bottom of your mouth)? I had that done and had trouble with my R's. It was a terrible pain when the doctor clipped it, and it took me years until I learned how to curl my tongue to make the R sound correctly. Instead, I was replacing the R with a W sound. I think I had mine done in '91 or '92.

When I was in school, I had a friend studying for speech therapy. She said that I was lucky to have the procedure done because they've stopped doing it.

I attempted Spanish as my second language, but I never figured out how to roll my R's. That made me pretty discouraged.

I must had been sedated when it happened because I don't recall any pain. Although I can imagine being insanely painful without it.   Yeah, sucks that my parents wasted that money for me to end the same. 
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
-Don't ever mistake wealth for worth.

craiglepaige

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 643
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2017, 01:46:58 PM »
Haha just came back from a test-drive and saw a car with a license plate bracket that had a decal on it that read, "Speak English - Or get the fuck out!"

I mean whatever lol.
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
-Don't ever mistake wealth for worth.

ketchup

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Age: 26
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2017, 01:48:18 PM »
Haha just came back from a test-drive and saw a car with a license plate bracket that had a decal on it that read, "Speak English - Or get the fuck out!"

I mean whatever lol.

solon

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 793
  • Age: 1816
  • Location: CO
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2017, 03:04:31 PM »
Haha just came back from a test-drive and saw a car with a license plate bracket that had a decal on it that read, "Speak English - Or get the fuck out!"

I mean whatever lol.


I can't see what this has to do with anything. In fact, this comic might even be making the situation worse. Of course, most issues that are reduced to a comic strip only make the situation worse.

When you go to a Cherokee-speaking country, you can expect that the people there will speak Cherokee. Just like every other country or people group in the world.

Is the author implying that THIS is a Cherokee-speaking country, and so we should all learn Cherokee? Well, he's wrong.
Is the author implying that the early settlers to the New World found themselves in a Cherokee-speaking country, and so should have learned Cherokee? Well, he's wrong.

The fact is, when you go to a place where the people speak a different language, you need to speak that language too. To expect the people to begin speaking YOUR language is the height of ridiculousness.

Vindicated

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Indianapolis
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2017, 03:17:07 PM »
Is the author implying that the early settlers to the New World found themselves in a Cherokee-speaking country, and so should have learned Cherokee? Well, he's wrong.

The fact is, when you go to a place where the people speak a different language, you need to speak that language too. To expect the people to begin speaking YOUR language is the height of ridiculousness.

These two statements seem to contradict each other.  The settlers came to a Cherokee-speaking* country, and didn't learn the language.  So, you're saying that the artist of the comic is wrong in insinuating that the settlers should have learned Cherokee.  Then, you say that going to another country, you should learn that language.

*Or whichever tribe's language was common near said settlers.

-

This is aside from the fact of whether or not foreign language speakers should be welcome to speak their own language wherever they go.  Of course they can speak whatever language they choose.  If they're unable to speak the local language well, it will impact their ability to work and live comfortably, but they shouldn't be forced to learn the local language.  That would be "the height of ridiculousness".
My MMM Journal: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-almost-perfect-life-experience/

Get a Free Stock from Robinhood by using this referral link, and I get one too! ($7-$10)
https://robinhood.com/referral/danielg954/

"One thing alone is certain, that man's slavery grows and increases. Man is becoming a willing slave. He no longer needs chains. He begins to grow fond of his slavery, to be proud of it. And this is the most terrible thing that can happen to a man.” - G.I. Gurdjieff

bwall

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
Re: Immigrants: Stupid questions you've been asked?
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2017, 03:49:53 PM »
I have a friend who I thought for ages was born in Ireland. Nope - she was born in Germany and moved to Ireland when she was 18. You would never know she wasn't a native English speaker just from listening to her.

This is how tricky language can be. If you live in the UK, you (or I) might not be able to differentiate her from a native Irish speaker. However, the true test is if the Irish hear an accent or not.

Not to belabor the point, but when I lived in Poland I met a few Polish teachers of English. They all had what I considered to be amazing British English accents. The local Brits in town weren't impressed, however.