Author Topic: IMF says we're all fucked  (Read 3654 times)

GuitarStv

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IMF says we're all fucked
« on: October 12, 2022, 10:41:46 AM »
Winter 2022 will be bad, winter 2023 will be worse.  Expecting record setting low global growth and high inflation . . .

https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2022/10/11/policymakers-need-steady-hand-as-storm-clouds-gather-over-global-economy


Yikes!

techwiz

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2022, 10:53:44 AM »
World output 6.0 (2021), 3.2 (2022) 2.7 (2023)
Slowing of growth, but the only negative numbers in their latest world growth projections were:
Germany -0.3 (2023)
Italy -0.2 (2023)
Russia -3.4 (2022) -2.3 (2023)



simonsez

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2022, 12:32:47 PM »
I thought this was about IVF at first and my curiosity was piqued!  I was hoping to read an agressive take about phthalates, microplastics, shrinking perineum sizes, increased endometriosis, reduced natural cervical mucus, Y allosome microdeletions, etc. all leading to reduced human fecundity and thus, a growing need to utilize IVF.  I.e. "IVF says the human race is fucked without it!"

Now back to your regularly scheduled economic doom and gloom.

GuitarStv

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2022, 01:51:01 PM »
I thought this was about IVF at first and my curiosity was piqued!  I was hoping to read an agressive take about phthalates, microplastics, shrinking perineum sizes, increased endometriosis, reduced natural cervical mucus, Y allosome microdeletions, etc. all leading to reduced human fecundity and thus, a growing need to utilize IVF.  I.e. "IVF says the human race is fucked without it!"

Now back to your regularly scheduled economic doom and gloom.

Plastic induced shrinking choads is also a problem.  :P

fuzzy math

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2022, 07:39:11 AM »
Well I guess its a good thing I had already convinced myself to work 3MY. UGH.
What a strange world. If people weathered the 1920s and 1930s I know we will weather this. I just wish I knew how many years to expect to be bad. Its not reasonable to expect to know, but the thought of 7 years of this or something is daunting.

Syonyk

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2022, 08:39:45 PM »
Hah, that's a funny article.  Almost like it was written by a bunch of bankers who believe that reality must bend to reflect their abstract manipulations of money they think they're so good at.

Money is a useful tool, and it can influence reality, sometimes, under some conditions.  But it cannot, and will never be able to, entirely create reality based on the whims of the money lever wielders.  The IMF and various bankers seem to regularly forget this minor inconvenience.

I just wish I knew how many years to expect to be bad. Its not reasonable to expect to know, but the thought of 7 years of this or something is daunting.

Oh... I think it's going to be far longer, in that we're on the way down from our civlization peak for a range of reasons I'll expand on, and there will be no "back to normal" - just various periods of calmer times.

And I recognize this is a contrarian viewpoint on this forum, certainly, but I'll try to defend it somewhat.

Our current civilization is broadly based around exponential growth - "1% annual growth" is exponential, even if the exponent is fairly small.  We generally see this growth in terms of growth of materials, energy, etc.  The problem is that we're on a finite planet - and, no, asteroid mining and such doesn't solve this problem for long.  So, exponential growth on a finite planet will eventually run into problems.  My assertion is that we're running squarely into a huge wide range of those problems - and "solving one" doesn't mean that we can magically solve the rest.  Not that we're making any real progress on solving any, at a serious level.

We're screwing up the climate by using the atmosphere as a sewer for a wide range of gasses.  And if that's fine, we've done a solid job of screwing up ecosystems with that whole "exponential growth" thing - in what we're building, or where we're mining, etc.  We neglect what the ecosystems provide as free services, and instead level them for something we can put a dollar amount on, forgetting that we can't eat or breathe money.

Of course, with the whole exponential growth of energy thing, we're now running ourselves largely out of the fuels we've built our civilization on - the assorted fossil fuels.  The current explored reserves are dwindling, and are more and more uneconomic to recover, because we used all the easy stuff first.  We don't do fracking on short-lived wells (1-2 years to depletion) and deepwater drilling because it's fun, we do it because we've run out of other places.  To borrow a turn of phrase I quite like, fracking is scraping the muck off the bottom of the barrel and using it to claim the barrel is still full.  It's not economically viable long term, and it's increasingly not energetically useful - EROEI metrics for fracking, tar sands, and other such technologies suck.

That's before you get into the minor issue of Europe having had their energy pipelines literally blown to hell.  We'll see how well "streaming storage" works for "raw supply of gas," but people more familiar with the issue than I am (in terms of the technical details of storage and how to extract from it and such) sort of laugh when asked about the feasibility of it, talk about how the existing storage facilities are designed, the various corner case behaviors of methane and associated gasses as you cool them, and suggest a good sweater.

And one can point to ever-growing debt as well, as something that can't be sustained - there is an endgame for it, but we know what happens when nations default on their debt and it's not pretty.  When most of the western world does it, that's also not going to be pretty.

It goes on down - pick your area, it's probably hitting limits.  We've grown pretty much as far as we can on this planet, with no useful plans to get off it (the worst, least-hospitable place on Earth is still orders of magnitude easier to live on than any other planet), and no real plan other than stumble ahead and figure out what happens as we go.  That it might not work isn't something commoly considered.

So we have an economy that must grow, facing an increasingly impossible path to growth.  Again, doesn't end very well.  And we're seeing some of the stuff starting to crack, yet again, because we didn't fix the problems back in 2008, we just kicked that can another... oh, 14-15 years, seems like.  Couple other people in office, hopefully the other team gets the blame, etc.

My view is that the future, to again borrow from an author I read who makes a lot of sense, will consist of LESS - Less Energy, Stimulation, Stuff.  So, one ought to spend some time trying to work out the details of that now - use the surpluses to ensure we have the slack to deal with a lot of what's coming, and perhaps consider downshifting our energy use and such now, before the issue is forced.  It's far easier to play with alternative ways to heat a home when the furnace still works, as opposed to when the natural gas pipelines are empty or unaffordable.  Same goes for growing useful stuff (there's yet another supermarket merger in progress, so one can safely predict the usual "higher prices" and "crappier food" out of that, same as every other time it happens).  You can afford garden failures when there's still some working supply chains.

But very little "looks good going forward."  And so I think it's well past time to recognize the ways the winds are blowing, and start doing something useful about it.  Build the locally resilient groups, start looking at how to best prepare people in them for that which is likely to come, etc.  One can't predict the specific details of the decline of nations or civilizations, but one can notice that most of them pass the same signposts in roughly the same way - and overshooting the resource base, badly, while the ruling class refuses to acknowledge it, is a pretty typical way to get the ball rolling.

Done carefully, I think that there's a lot useful that can be done by people in the FIRE movement - they generally have the sort of spare resources and slack that can go to working out the best solutions for their local area in terms of lower energy living, local systems, etc.  But I don't have particularly high hopes of that, since the attitude of a movement that has largely existed for 15 years, in a "The Fed Ensures The Markets Will Rise!" sort of environment, is that this is just a speedbump, a buying opportunity, etc.  There's less willingness to discuss the fact that we're hitting, at yet more speed, a wide range of very real issues that aren't papered over by pulling the levers of money.  We can't eat money, we can't breathe money, and we can't fuel our steel furnaces on money (at least the purely digital kind that tends to make up most of the monetary supply anymore - though I don't think paper currency will run a steel mill very well either).

I try to do useful things, both for myself and others, on the way down.  I've got my own solar arrays running that, funny enough, are easily converted to a more standalone, off-grid type system if I have some reason to do so.  I hope I won't have to, but if I do, all the solar I've helped people with can be fairly trivially turned into a good off-grid system.  Design feature.  And it frees up at least some resources to do other useful things.  I'm currently helping some people in my local circles stockpile firewood for the years to come, and at the same time looking at how we can reduce firewood use in the shoulder seasons (mini splits) to keep the wood piles lasting longer for the real cold or such.  I've been experimenting quite a bit with the state of kerosene lighting and heating, because it's a useful thing to be able to kick out some heat and light with the grid down in the winter - which happens often enough one ought to consider it.

My "map of the world" is that the US specifically is a dying empire, doing that sort of thing dying empires tend to do, and also dealing with being on the backside of the arc of the civilization - which, again, is a common enough shape that one can get a basic map for what's ahead and do something useful about it.  At this point, people usually accuse me of being a pessimist, which... fine, I am, I know it, but I also remain generally unsurprised by the shape of the world and what's going on with it, which says my map is a bit more useful than "This is just a temporary speedbump on our clear path to the stars."  Spoiler: We aren't.

Anyway.  I broadly agree with the IMF, but I try to ground myself a bit closer to the actual concrete realities of energy and materials than the more abstract world of "money" they use to try and trick developing nations into remaining debt slaves.  They used to be good at it, though I understand more and more targets of that have grown wise to the game.  Their concern is just "How do we get back to growth?"  I tend to think "Growth is mostly over, so let's do something useful for the way down."

GuitarStv

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2022, 07:15:34 AM »
So your concern is that 'We're all fucked' is an understatement by the IMF?  :P

Syonyk

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2022, 08:22:34 AM »
I think the fact that they view the world through the lens of money blinds them to a lot of potential problems, yes.

On the other hand, none of the stuff I'm talking about is a "catastrophic, overnight collapse" sort of thing, with the possible potential of debt, at some point.  Like people, countries tend to go broke slowly, then all at once.

I think it's worth paying attention to the various things we're coming at, though.  And, as has been the case throughout history, I expect the assorted "experts in positions of leadership" currently will be somewhere between "useless" and "actively harmful" in terms of dealing with the situation, hence my interest in far more local communities and such.

Again, I recognize it's not a particularly popular position on this forum, but if the era of "Put it all in index funds and retire early" is coming to an end, it's worth planning for that.  I tend to focus more on how I can drive my long term minimum expenses down with productive use of property over pure market returns.

brandon1827

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2022, 08:39:36 AM »
Mostly posting to follow...though I do agree with @Syonyk regarding looking for ways to be more self-sustainable in the future

blue_green_sparks

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2022, 08:49:51 AM »
At my age I just need the US to have one more, big ole pump and dump LOL before the apocalypse. USA, USA, USA ! We are a country full of brainiacs, right? /s.  In fact, I believe we classify as an oligarchy at this point. It's not like legislation in any way shape or form mirrors our wishes. We are ruled by a few executives and a high court.
 

PDXTabs

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2022, 01:20:42 PM »
Our current civilization is broadly based around exponential growth - "1% annual growth" is exponential, even if the exponent is fairly small.  We generally see this growth in terms of growth of materials, energy, etc.  The problem is that we're on a finite planet - and, no, asteroid mining and such doesn't solve this problem for long.  So, exponential growth on a finite planet will eventually run into problems.  My assertion is that we're running squarely into a huge wide range of those problems - and "solving one" doesn't mean that we can magically solve the rest.  Not that we're making any real progress on solving any, at a serious level.

I mostly agree with your take on running out of finite resources. But I do think that there are lots of opportunities for continued economic development in parts of the world. To pick one country as an example, there are still a lot of subsistence farmers in Zimbabwe. I would argue that there is still a lot of opportunity for their economy to grow with further specialization. My great grandparents were subsistence farmers and now I'm a software engineer because industrial agriculture is more efficient than plowing your field with animals (or by hand).

Syonyk

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2022, 07:04:13 PM »
I mostly agree with your take on running out of finite resources.

Great.  Now apply that to the rest of your post. ;)

Quote
My great grandparents were subsistence farmers and now I'm a software engineer because industrial agriculture is more efficient than plowing your field with animals (or by hand).

It is, and the way we do it is to use an awful lot of finite resources in a very non-circular manner.  To claim that we grow crops on fossil fuels for industrial agriculture is quite true - we use a lot of diesel in the tractors to plow, plant, and harvest.  We use natural gas to make fertilizer, we use diesel to mine potash and similar for fertilizers, and we have hugely long diesel based supply chains to tie all of this together.

What does agriculture look like without fossil fuels?  An awful lot closer to what your great grandparents did.  We know that's more or less sustainable.  We are far from clear that our current methods can be made sustainable - and, as currently done, they're very, very far from it.

PDXTabs

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2022, 02:25:07 AM »
Quote
My great grandparents were subsistence farmers and now I'm a software engineer because industrial agriculture is more efficient than plowing your field with animals (or by hand).

It is, and the way we do it is to use an awful lot of finite resources in a very non-circular manner.  To claim that we grow crops on fossil fuels for industrial agriculture is quite true - we use a lot of diesel in the tractors to plow, plant, and harvest.  We use natural gas to make fertilizer, we use diesel to mine potash and similar for fertilizers, and we have hugely long diesel based supply chains to tie all of this together.

What does agriculture look like without fossil fuels?  An awful lot closer to what your great grandparents did.  We know that's more or less sustainable.  We are far from clear that our current methods can be made sustainable - and, as currently done, they're very, very far from it.

In some ways, yes. I'm not a fan of destroying topsoil in the way that most current industrial agricultural practices do by tilling and pouring petrochemical fertilizers onto a soil substrate. But that doesn't mean that you can't improve on what my great grandparents did with specialization and better tools.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 02:29:36 AM by PDXTabs »

scottish

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2022, 02:02:38 PM »
How long do you folks think it will take for global birth rates to start to decline?     First world birth rates are generally below replacement levels.   Even China is at 1.70 per woman.

A professor named Hans Rosling was known for studying this topic.   He's deceased (2017), but you can find his talks on youtube.   Spoiler:  his results suggest there's a good chance of global population decline all on it's own, without any doomy scenarios.

Synonyk, thanks for sharing about your work spreading standalone power (is it all solar?) in your community.   It's cool to know your motivation.

Syonyk

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2022, 07:47:00 PM »
In some ways, yes. I'm not a fan of destroying topsoil in the way that most current industrial agricultural practices do by tilling and pouring petrochemical fertilizers onto a soil substrate. But that doesn't mean that you can't improve on what my great grandparents did with specialization and better tools.

You can improve on the techniques, yes.  It's far from clear that modern soil is even capable of achieving their yields without a lot of petrochemical crap poured in, given what we've done to it over the years.  Also, an awful lot more mouths to feed.

It's probably possible to feed the world without as much mechanized farming - but it goes back to most of the population being involved in food production.  But even if we don't end up there any time soon, it's a reasonable guess that fuel is going to get more expensive, and I would expect to see some returns to older food production styles simply because they're better, as the cost of fuel and fertilizer continues a ragged climb.  The Amish have some techniques that are quite well refined and work very well, without an awful lot in the way of diesel required...

Synonyk, thanks for sharing about your work spreading standalone power (is it all solar?) in your community.   It's cool to know your motivation.

Yeah, it's all solar.  Small scale wind isn't worth the cost or materials it takes.  One of these months I'll drop the grid offline at the house and run on the backup trailer for a few weeks, see how it works out in practice.

sixwings

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2022, 09:43:00 AM »
There's a lot of new technologies that are starting to come on line to replace traditional agriculture. For instance I am very bullish on what cultured meat will mean for our ability to feed the world without following a lot of land destroying ag practices.

brandon1827

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2022, 07:28:59 AM »
Something that is in the same realm as agriculture concerns is water scarcity concerns. It seems like there are vast areas of the world currently dealing with severe drought. Almost daily I see an article talking about the low water levels in lakes and rivers, and the extremely wasteful water use practices of the U.S. (and possibly other countries?) seems like a big issue that could have hugely significant impacts on agriculture and other areas of life moving forward. Anyone have perspectives on the water issue as it relates to this discussion?

SunnyDays

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2022, 11:20:51 AM »
Something that is in the same realm as agriculture concerns is water scarcity concerns. It seems like there are vast areas of the world currently dealing with severe drought. Almost daily I see an article talking about the low water levels in lakes and rivers, and the extremely wasteful water use practices of the U.S. (and possibly other countries?) seems like a big issue that could have hugely significant impacts on agriculture and other areas of life moving forward. Anyone have perspectives on the water issue as it relates to this discussion?

Well, there have been suggestions lately that the Canadian government start thinking about what it's going to do when the US comes knocking on our door.  We have no shortage of water, but do we really want to share it with a country that, as you say, is profligate in it's use?  So it can drain us dry too?  Plus, the US has way more guns than we do, and a huge army.

Just Joe

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2022, 12:09:09 PM »
There's a lot of new technologies that are starting to come on line to replace traditional agriculture. For instance I am very bullish on what cultured meat will mean for our ability to feed the world without following a lot of land destroying ag practices.

I love a good steak but I've also enjoyed most of the veggie based substitutes. I'd just like to see the price come down from boutique product prices. What DW and I really need to do is start testing some of the DIY recipes this winter.

GardenBaker

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2022, 12:30:14 PM »
Something that is in the same realm as agriculture concerns is water scarcity concerns. It seems like there are vast areas of the world currently dealing with severe drought. Almost daily I see an article talking about the low water levels in lakes and rivers, and the extremely wasteful water use practices of the U.S. (and possibly other countries?) seems like a big issue that could have hugely significant impacts on agriculture and other areas of life moving forward. Anyone have perspectives on the water issue as it relates to this discussion?

I have seen several articles on the Mississippi River low water levels impacting shipment of goods down the river. The large barges are getting stuck due to the low levels and are not able to pick up and transport crops, goods and other trade items down to the port of New Orleans. I heard a figure that 1 barge would be the equivalent to 124 truck loads in an 18 wheeler, so it's not feasible to transport the goods using another method. I'm not in the trucking industry, so maybe someone with more expertise can verify or shed some light on the subject.

Just Joe

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2022, 01:07:32 PM »
Time for Australia road-trains?

Is the Tombigbee Waterway suffering form the drought too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee%E2%80%93Tombigbee_Waterway

brandon1827

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2022, 01:21:59 PM »
As far as I know, the Tenn-Tom is still open and functioning. Not sure what it would take for that to also be low to a point where barges couldn't travel

ysette9

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2022, 05:37:51 PM »
I'm certainly no expert in any of this, so more ruminating out loud.

It feels like if the impacts hit suddenly, then we are fucked. If impacts ease in more gradually then that allows people and markets time to adjust accordingly. I hear statistics about how if everyone ate no meat one day a week, the water crisis in the west would be significantly diminished. Or if we could fix the screwed-up farm bill so as to not incentivize growing thirsty crops in deserts like Arizona, or not have use-it-or-lose-it water policies along the CO river, we could save a lot of wasted water. Similarly if we were growing food for eating versus food to ship overseas to feed to animals that get slaughtered for meat, we could do ourselves a lot of good.

So I wonder if we just need to have smarter policies and then let the cost of meat go high, as an example. I've been incorporating some Beyond Meat and similar products into our cooking routine and I think they are great. I mix it 50/50 with ground beef and we pretty much can't tell the difference. To me it seems like there is opportunity to tweak a lot of little things to add up to a big difference.

I don't want to be naively Pollyanna-ish and say that the magical wand of Technology or Progress is going to save us, because it isn't. Technology isn't going to make it rain more or make wildfires less frequent. On the other hand there seems to be a good amount of low-hanging fruit to work on first by cleaning up stupid policies. To do that though we would need people in government who believe in reality and are willing to spend time trying to make the world a better place. Go vote, people!

Syonyk

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2022, 09:27:40 PM »
To do that though we would need people in government who believe in reality and are willing to spend time trying to make the world a better place. Go vote, people!

For who?

I vote for the non-millionaire independents, but have no dreams of them winning.  To win a political campaign, it seems you must be wealthy, and a friend of the even more wealthy, which means you won't actually disrupt a damned thing.

Just Joe

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2022, 07:27:25 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp0nqJ1yrrg

Are people like this going to switch off their a/c or quit watering all that landscaping? Interestingly - how many of the golf carts had lawn mower engines? Not batteries. I heard alot of little engines.

Add in all the business-first types too. Nashville wants to replace their perfectly fine football stadium that is about 15 years old with a monster four seasons dome - and who will pay for that? So many better ways to spend that money than another damn stadium.

It is a reminder that there are millions of people like them and far fewer people like MMM folks that wrecks my hopes Americans will ever be part of any solution.

What is frustrating to me is that the solutions are right there in front of us but we can't let that get in the way of consumerism and money.

Edit: and the NYTimes says this: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/27/briefing/un-report-climate-change.html

The mixed messages problem needs to be solved. We saw how that was detrimental to the "cause" during COVID.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 07:42:23 AM by Just Joe »

GuitarStv

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2022, 08:00:24 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp0nqJ1yrrg

Are people like this going to switch off their a/c or quit watering all that landscaping?

Nope, they definitely will not.  And I'm not sure if I can blame them exactly . . . they've worked hard, amassed a fortune, and are trying to live out the end of their lives in the best way possible for them.  That's exactly what they were told they should do all their lives.

Metalcat

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2022, 08:02:48 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp0nqJ1yrrg

Are people like this going to switch off their a/c or quit watering all that landscaping? Interestingly - how many of the golf carts had lawn mower engines? Not batteries. I heard alot of little engines.

Add in all the business-first types too. Nashville wants to replace their perfectly fine football stadium that is about 15 years old with a monster four seasons dome - and who will pay for that? So many better ways to spend that money than another damn stadium.

It is a reminder that there are millions of people like them and far fewer people like MMM folks that wrecks my hopes Americans will ever be part of any solution.

What is frustrating to me is that the solutions are right there in front of us but we can't let that get in the way of consumerism and money.

Edit: and the NYTimes says this: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/27/briefing/un-report-climate-change.html

The mixed messages problem needs to be solved. We saw how that was detrimental to the "cause" during COVID.

To be fair though, there are many governments and populations that are generating purpose driven industries and business-government collaborations.

It's not like it's impossible, it's just not happening in the US, because at this time in history, Americans aren't leading the way on progress.

But the weirdness that's happening in the US right now isn't generalizable to all world governments. Some are chugging along quite nicely on their collaborative work with industry to disrupt systems, especially with respect to energy transitions.

Scotland just did a several years long energy transition consultation process where industry and public were huge co-creators in their national strategy.

Models are being established. The US may eventually pull out of its weird death-spiral and find a way to get on board, especially once multiple frameworks and precedents are set and working in other countries.

Or maybe not, who knows. It's a weird time.


Just Joe

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2022, 10:19:31 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp0nqJ1yrrg

Are people like this going to switch off their a/c or quit watering all that landscaping?

Nope, they definitely will not.  And I'm not sure if I can blame them exactly . . . they've worked hard, amassed a fortune, and are trying to live out the end of their lives in the best way possible for them.  That's exactly what they were told they should do all their lives.

No, I'm not blaming them either. They are who they were/are trained to be.

Edit: $2.1B for a new stadium. Apparently a deal was struck. I don't care, I don't live there but it surely seems wasteful. Seems like a perfect opportunity to change how transportation works in a big city but I doubt that figures in beyond traffic routing and parking. Oh well. American SOP.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 10:25:37 AM by Just Joe »

MasterStache

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2022, 06:28:08 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp0nqJ1yrrg

Are people like this going to switch off their a/c or quit watering all that landscaping?

Nope, they definitely will not.  And I'm not sure if I can blame them exactly . . . they've worked hard, amassed a fortune, and are trying to live out the end of their lives in the best way possible for them.  That's exactly what they were told they should do all their lives.

No, I'm not blaming them either. They are who they were/are trained to be.

Edit: $2.1B for a new stadium. Apparently a deal was struck. I don't care, I don't live there but it surely seems wasteful. Seems like a perfect opportunity to change how transportation works in a big city but I doubt that figures in beyond traffic routing and parking. Oh well. American SOP.

Hilarious that you posted that link. I recently tracked my long ago absentee far right Trump loving "father" down. Low and behold, he now lives in the Villages. My siblings and I kind of laugh about it and joke he left partly because he was disappointed none of us turned out like him politically or socially.   

Sorry, totally off topic. Ha!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 05:00:47 AM by MasterStache »

Just Joe

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2022, 10:22:23 AM »
I like off-topic. ;)

BicycleB

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Re: IMF says we're all fucked
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2022, 08:38:26 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp0nqJ1yrrg

Are people like this going to switch off their a/c or quit watering all that landscaping? Interestingly - how many of the golf carts had lawn mower engines? Not batteries. I heard alot of little engines.

Add in all the business-first types too. Nashville wants to replace their perfectly fine football stadium that is about 15 years old with a monster four seasons dome - and who will pay for that? So many better ways to spend that money than another damn stadium.

It is a reminder that there are millions of people like them and far fewer people like MMM folks that wrecks my hopes Americans will ever be part of any solution.

What is frustrating to me is that the solutions are right there in front of us but we can't let that get in the way of consumerism and money.

Edit: and the NYTimes says this: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/27/briefing/un-report-climate-change.html

The mixed messages problem needs to be solved. We saw how that was detrimental to the "cause" during COVID.

To be fair though, there are many governments and populations that are generating purpose driven industries and business-government collaborations.

It's not like it's impossible, it's just not happening in the US, because at this time in history, Americans aren't leading the way on progress.

But the weirdness that's happening in the US right now isn't generalizable to all world governments. Some are chugging along quite nicely on their collaborative work with industry to disrupt systems, especially with respect to energy transitions.

Scotland just did a several years long energy transition consultation process where industry and public were huge co-creators in their national strategy.

Models are being established. The US may eventually pull out of its weird death-spiral and find a way to get on board, especially once multiple frameworks and precedents are set and working in other countries.

Or maybe not, who knows. It's a weird time.

@Malcat, thank you for pointing this out! Glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

Much progress occurs that is not widely recognized. It may not be enough to solve all problems as quickly as we want, but abandoning hope is unwise. I think that working towards solutions on both local and governmental / societal levels is very valuable.

Fwiw, I think that despite problems, we can come closer to geometric growth than is believed on this thread. Water as mentioned upthread is a good example. Globally there are many water shortage and quality issues, some deadly. They will get much worse with continued climate change, but also because of increasing demand. However many of them are solvable and will be solved. In the long run we don't need massive increases in resource use to have more wealth throughout the globe. We need massive increases in resource efficiency, and there's room for that.

Maybe the mechanisms of getting to solution will come after a higher pain period. A few million deaths here and there of the global poor aren't motivating enough action (and yes there are global poor already dying from water shortage). When the problems get bigger and more visible though, many wasteful practices can and will be reformed, resulting in sufficient water for the next era. Similarly, desalination becomes useful under sufficient need and with sufficient improvement. We won't avoid some disasters at our current pace. But I think that avoiding or overcoming global economic implosion is doable, even likely in both energy and water.

Notably, the improvement in renewables pricing and rapid growth of renewable energy industry are causing informed skeptics to shift some pessimistic predictions to a more optimistic level. A few years ago Stanford scientist Marshall Burke projected that world GDP could be cut by a quarter compared to a world without climate change. According the NY Times (iink below), he has revised his expectations: "The problem is a result of human choices, and our progess on it is a result of human choices. And these should be celebrated. It's not yet sufficient. But it is amazing."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/10/26/magazine/climate-change-warming-world.html

PS. Topsoil is harder but humanity isn't going to die. Individual humans will die because of our industrial wastefulness and we should do better. The species and probably the global capitalist economy will survive either way though - most likely with a higher income per capita than now, I respectfully suspect.

Note that even the pessimistic projection of the scientist above never said global income would shrink. It just said it would grow less than if climate change wasn't slowing us down. Similarly, it appears that the IMF report above merely said growth would slow compared to the previous year's 6 percent. But 6 percent was a rebound from COVID! 2 to 3 percent growth is close to normal for recent generations, still clearly geometric - and IMF is saying 2 to 3 percent growth, not "we're f-d", if I understand @techwiz's summary.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 12:08:06 AM by BicycleB »