Author Topic: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....  (Read 3159 times)

blue_green_sparks

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Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« on: March 23, 2021, 08:49:22 AM »
...Like that guy in Colorado. Yeah, we don't have enough to worry about. Well I guess this means things are getting back to normal.

jrhampt

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2021, 10:47:34 AM »
yep, two mass shootings in one week.  Not totally in our goals for re-opening...but it does seem more normal anyway, whatever that is.

Plina

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2021, 03:08:32 PM »
...Like that guy in Colorado. Yeah, we don't have enough to worry about. Well I guess this means things are getting back to normal.

And they tell you covid is not dangerous!

Dicey

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2021, 03:18:20 AM »
Just found out my cousin's son, a Boulder cop who was off duty and responded, was shot at and missed.

Also heard on NPR today that when there was a mass shooting in Christchurch, NZ, the decision was made not to name or show  photos of the shooter. So wise not to give that person any notoriety or inspire copycats.

When the fuck are we ever going to learn?

kei te pai

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2021, 03:41:51 AM »
Two years on from the Christchurch atrocity the general attitude in NZ continues to honour the victims, examine what can be learnt about monitoring extremeism, and pay no attention or publicity of any sort to the perpetrator.
His name is rarely mentioned, his ideology gets no oxygen.

jeninco

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2021, 01:59:55 PM »
Just found out my cousin's son, a Boulder cop who was off duty and responded, was shot at and missed.

Also heard on NPR today that when there was a mass shooting in Christchurch, NZ, the decision was made not to name or show  photos of the shooter. So wise not to give that person any notoriety or inspire copycats.

When the fuck are we ever going to learn?

I'm so glad your cousin's son is OK.

We'll learn when half the US Senate isn't taking the official position of "fuck you". As in, "you thought you had the freedom to go to the store and not get mowed down, but FUCK YOU, it's more important that I be allowed to go buy a couple of weapons of war no matter how mentally ill I am." (Also, "hey, you thought children shouldn't go hungry in one of the richest countries in the world, but FUCK YOU, I don't want to pay higher taxes to benefit the 'undeserving'" and "mental health services? F***".  you get my drift.)

Just Joe

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2021, 02:00:21 PM »
So would removing guns even be a solution?

Is there any chance of ever controlling the wide distribution of guns already in the USA?

PKFFW

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2021, 05:04:37 PM »
So would removing guns even be a solution?

Is there any chance of ever controlling the wide distribution of guns already in the USA?
What's that old saying?  Where there's a will, there's a way!

The issue is not the wide distribution of guns already in the USA.  The issue is there is no will to remove them.  You guy's put people on the moon for crying out loud.  I'm pretty sure you could find a way to remove the guns if you actually wanted to.  It's your society, so it's your choice.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong and I'm not telling you to do one thing or another.  All I'm saying is own the decision.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2021, 06:27:54 PM »
So would removing guns even be a solution?

Is there any chance of ever controlling the wide distribution of guns already in the USA?
What's that old saying?  Where there's a will, there's a way!

The issue is not the wide distribution of guns already in the USA.  The issue is there is no will to remove them.  You guy's put people on the moon for crying out loud.  I'm pretty sure you could find a way to remove the guns if you actually wanted to.  It's your society, so it's your choice.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong and I'm not telling you to do one thing or another.  All I'm saying is own the decision.

I looked up statistics several years ago.  At that time handguns were the major cause of death in American shooting deaths.  A large proportion of those deaths were suicides.  They are so easy to use, to carry, to have around, so efficient in a suicide attempt.  Canada probably has nearly as many long guns as the US does, but we are a bit tighter in buying them (courses to pass).  But we have very few private hand guns.

We do have long guns (mostly in rural areas, for obvious reasons like coyotes) and they have starred in most of our recent mass shootings.  But we are tight enough that one murderous misogynist had to rent a van to mow women down with because he couldn't get a gun.  Some people are truly determined, unfortunately, but we can make it harder for them.  And our kids don't get lockdown training at school, despite our first relatively recent massacre being at a University (Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal). 

the_fixer

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2021, 02:39:13 PM »
This one hits close to home.

My wife works just a couple blocks away and goes to the king soopers at lunch to get gas, eat or shop. Thankfully we just filled up her gas tank the day before otherwise she would have gone to get gas and she was on her lunch break when it all went down.

One of her coworkers daughters works as a pharmacist at that location thankfully she had a later shift that day. Another one of her coworkers just finished grocery shopping at lunch about 15 mins before it started.

We are in the shopping center all of the time

I am sure my wife will be a stressed when we go for our 2nd covid shot next week at King Soopers even though it will be just down the road.

Maybe 2022 will be better right?


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OtherJen

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2021, 06:59:04 AM »
Just found out my cousin's son, a Boulder cop who was off duty and responded, was shot at and missed.

Also heard on NPR today that when there was a mass shooting in Christchurch, NZ, the decision was made not to name or show  photos of the shooter. So wise not to give that person any notoriety or inspire copycats.

When the fuck are we ever going to learn?

I'm so glad your cousin's son is OK.

We'll learn when half the US Senate isn't taking the official position of "fuck you". As in, "you thought you had the freedom to go to the store and not get mowed down, but FUCK YOU, it's more important that I be allowed to go buy a couple of weapons of war no matter how mentally ill I am." (Also, "hey, you thought children shouldn't go hungry in one of the richest countries in the world, but FUCK YOU, I don't want to pay higher taxes to benefit the 'undeserving'" and "mental health services? F***".  you get my drift.)

This. Also, we’ll learn when we, as a society, stop glorifying and fetishizing guns and those who use them either for good or ill.

GuitarStv

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2021, 08:22:19 AM »
I'm not optimistic that the US position on guns (and therefore the routine mass gun murders) will ever change.

'Thoughts and prayers'.  Again.  And again.  And Again.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2021, 10:29:33 AM »
I'm not optimistic that the US position on guns (and therefore the routine mass gun murders) will ever change.

'Thoughts and prayers'.  Again.  And again.  And Again.

it won't. "We" value guns over most things in this country.

In fact, if you could guarantee no gun deaths ever by removing all guns and America wouldn't agree to it.

Plina

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2021, 10:40:27 AM »
I'm not optimistic that the US position on guns (and therefore the routine mass gun murders) will ever change.

'Thoughts and prayers'.  Again.  And again.  And Again.

it won't. "We" value guns over most things in this country.

In fact, if you could guarantee no gun deaths ever by removing all guns and America wouldn't agree to it.

I have concluded the same thing. For some reason every mass shooting in US reaches news in some way even here. I stopped reading those news a long time ago as I concluded that americans as a society don’t care enough to stop them.

A funny thing was that about 15 years ago I told my parents that I was going to study a semester abroad probably in Texas. They asked me to not go there because of the school shootings. They were relieved when I ended up going to Montreal. What I didn’t know then was that Montreal also had a school shooting couple years earlier. I never told them that.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 01:09:39 PM by Plina »

Cool Friend

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2021, 11:41:46 AM »
A good read on this subject.

https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2019/08/03/rituals-of-childhood/

Quote
In any given week in America, you can watch as a different ritual of childhood plays itself out. Perhaps it will be in El Paso, at a shopping mall; or in Gilroy, at a food festival; or in Denver, at a school. Having heard gunshots, and been lucky enough to survive, children emerge to be shepherded to safety by their parents, their teachers, or heavily-armed police officers. They are always frightened. Some will be crying. But almost all of them know what is happening to them, and what to do. Mass shootings are by now a standard part of American life. Preparing for them has become a ritual of childhood. It’s as American as Monday Night Football, and very nearly as frequent.

Samuel

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2021, 02:13:30 PM »
Unless you think there is any realistic path to convincing 2/3 of Congress to rewrite and significantly weaken the Second Amendment (which I don't) then no, there isn't really any way to reduce the number of guns in America.

The simple fact/uncomfortable truth is that 400 million cats are out of the bag when it comes to guns in this country and there's no magic wand available to make them disappear. We're not beginning from a blank slate, we're starting from a place where criminals and sociopaths can fairly easily get a gun if they're willing to ignore laws to do it. I'm actually skeptical at this point that there are many additional "common sense" gun laws that would both be effective in reducing bad uses of guns and still be constitutional. It's really just a lot of arguing around the margins if the core legal principle isn't going to change.

Doesn't help that the "gun violence" problem is really three mainly distinct problems with different drivers and different potential mitigations. Nearly 2/3 is a suicide problem, the bulk of the rest is a crime/gang problem, and then there's the occasional mass shooting, of which a subset are the horrific and scary random active shooter events that dominate the discussion.

jeninco

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2021, 02:29:59 PM »
Well, the guy in Boulder bought at least one of his weapons new 6 days before he started shooting. And I believe the Atlanta dude also bought fresh guns for the occasion.]

So, yeah, doing a little something to limit the speed with which one can acquire a weapon of war might actually help.  Also, there's this little place called "New Zealand" which seems to have had some success limiting purchases and buying back guns...

jehovasfitness23

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2021, 02:33:06 PM »
Well, the guy in Boulder bought at least one of his weapons new 6 days before he started shooting. And I believe the Atlanta dude also bought fresh guns for the occasion.]

So, yeah, doing a little something to limit the speed with which one can acquire a weapon of war might actually help.  Also, there's this little place called "New Zealand" which seems to have had some success limiting purchases and buying back guns...

That and an in-person training course should be required. I bought a gun online 10 yrs ago. IIRC I only had to take a quick online safety course (though I could be wrong there).

I shot guns as a teen with my dad, but hadn't picked up a gun in 20 yrs, it's crazy.

OtherJen

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2021, 03:37:56 PM »
Well, the guy in Boulder bought at least one of his weapons new 6 days before he started shooting. And I believe the Atlanta dude also bought fresh guns for the occasion.]

So, yeah, doing a little something to limit the speed with which one can acquire a weapon of war might actually help.  Also, there's this little place called "New Zealand" which seems to have had some success limiting purchases and buying back guns...

The mass murderer in Atlanta bought his gun in the morning and shot up his victims later in the day. Even just a waiting period and removing background check loopholes would prevent some impulse gun buys and crimes. But we’re not willing to go even that far at a national level.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2021, 07:30:26 AM »
More and better laws around guns might help, but it’s really our culture in the US that’s the problem. After a classroom of first-graders got murdered because a paranoid gun nut trained her mentally ill son to shoot and gave him access to her stockpile - and NOTHING WAS DONE (except grieving families being targeted by conspiracy theorists [Alex Jones ...]) - I lost hope that anything would change here.

rocketpj

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2021, 11:00:01 AM »
Removing guns will likely only be done by taking it to the manufacturers.  Most of the current polarization around guns is fed by money from the manufacturers.  They need there to be a big demand for guns, for obvious reasons.

So tax the manufacture of guns at a really high rate.  Tie the tax rate to the number of people harmed by guns in a particular year.  Spend the revenues on helping people harmed by guns.

I know, the 't' word gets people all in a tizzy, but sheesh.  Find a way.

The other solution I can think of is for gun ownership to require insurance, like car ownership.  And for gun owners to be legally and financially liable for what happens with their guns.  If they are dead because they did some stupid blaze of glory thing, then make the insurance company liable.  Make the penalty for owning a gun without insurance really, really high.


GuitarStv

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2021, 11:53:32 AM »
Removing guns will likely only be done by taking it to the manufacturers.  Most of the current polarization around guns is fed by money from the manufacturers.  They need there to be a big demand for guns, for obvious reasons.

So tax the manufacture of guns at a really high rate.  Tie the tax rate to the number of people harmed by guns in a particular year.  Spend the revenues on helping people harmed by guns.

I know, the 't' word gets people all in a tizzy, but sheesh.  Find a way.

The other solution I can think of is for gun ownership to require insurance, like car ownership.  And for gun owners to be legally and financially liable for what happens with their guns.  If they are dead because they did some stupid blaze of glory thing, then make the insurance company liable.  Make the penalty for owning a gun without insurance really, really high.

I like the insurance idea.  It's a sensible free-market solution to the problem of reckless gun ownership.  Unfortunately, it would require that ownership/registration take place . . . seems like a pretty tough sell.

PDXTabs

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2021, 04:52:29 PM »
That and an in-person training course should be required. I bought a gun online 10 yrs ago. IIRC I only had to take a quick online safety course (though I could be wrong there).

I shot guns as a teen with my dad, but hadn't picked up a gun in 20 yrs, it's crazy.

Yearly re-qualification and actually having to hit a target would go a long way to reducing guns while also allowing true enthusiasts to continue their hobby.

EDITed to add - and insurance too.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 04:56:26 PM by PDXTabs »

BlueHouse

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2021, 05:01:41 PM »
I'm not optimistic that the US position on guns (and therefore the routine mass gun murders) will ever change.

'Thoughts and prayers'.  Again.  And again.  And Again.

the US position on guns doesn't have to change.  What we need to focus on is liability.   As soon as the liability waiver goes away, manufacturers and distributors will be much more cautious about what they manufacture and who they sell to. 

PDXTabs

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2021, 05:26:28 PM »
I'm not optimistic that the US position on guns (and therefore the routine mass gun murders) will ever change.

'Thoughts and prayers'.  Again.  And again.  And Again.

the US position on guns doesn't have to change.  What we need to focus on is liability.   As soon as the liability waiver goes away, manufacturers and distributors will be much more cautious about what they manufacture and who they sell to.

I'm not convinced that repealing the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act which has only been on the books since 2005 is going to make a material impact on much. It won't do anything for the guns out there and it won't stop small time players from starting new companies that will exist until someone sues them out of existence.

GuitarStv

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2021, 06:06:30 PM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

marty998

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2021, 04:04:18 AM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

The police right?

Oh.

RetiredAt63

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dignam

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2021, 06:55:28 AM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

The police right?

Oh.

To be fair, you generally never hear about the good police are doing.  The good ones far outnumber the bad ones, for sure.

I'm not saying there isn't a police issue in the US though, because there is and there needs to be some reform.

Kris

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2021, 07:47:18 AM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

The police right?

Oh.

To be fair, you generally never hear about the good police are doing.  The good ones far outnumber the bad ones, for sure.

I'm not saying there isn't a police issue in the US though, because there is and there needs to be some reform.

Do we know this? Do we really?

If there are 1000 good cops and 100 bad cops, and the 1000 good cops do nothing to stop the 100 bad cops, then we have 1100 bad cops.

dignam

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2021, 07:58:34 AM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

The police right?

Oh.

To be fair, you generally never hear about the good police are doing.  The good ones far outnumber the bad ones, for sure.

I'm not saying there isn't a police issue in the US though, because there is and there needs to be some reform.

Do we know this? Do we really?

If there are 1000 good cops and 100 bad cops, and the 1000 good cops do nothing to stop the 100 bad cops, then we have 1100 bad cops.

OK, so what's your argument?  That policing is a magnet for people who want to hurt people, and/or turn the other cheek?  My point was that news tends to focus on the negative, and that isn't just with regards to police. 

People who hold this unshakable negative view of the police are just as much a problem as those who think they can do no wrong. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2021, 08:12:45 AM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

The police right?

Oh.

To be fair, you generally never hear about the good police are doing.  The good ones far outnumber the bad ones, for sure.

I'm not saying there isn't a police issue in the US though, because there is and there needs to be some reform.

Do we know this? Do we really?

If there are 1000 good cops and 100 bad cops, and the 1000 good cops do nothing to stop the 100 bad cops, then we have 1100 bad cops.

OK, so what's your argument?  That policing is a magnet for people who want to hurt people, and/or turn the other cheek?  My point was that news tends to focus on the negative, and that isn't just with regards to police. 

People who hold this unshakable negative view of the police are just as much a problem as those who think they can do no wrong. 

I like the police.  They serve an incredibly important job, a job that's very difficult and where hard choices have to be made in an instant sometimes.  Because of this, I tend to cut them a lot of slack and place significant amounts of trust in them.  This is a pretty common viewpoint.  It's part of why police officers are treated so preferentially in our legal system.

The above makes it more problematic when a police officer does something indefensible.  A police officer who abuses his position should not have the support of anyone - especially not his department and other officers.  On the surface it's fair to say that a police officer who supports another officer who has done something wrong, is a bad police officer.

The problem is that good police officers who do not support bad ones are often subtly or outright reprimanded by their departments - and this makes most of them fall into line eventually.  My uncle is a police officer, and he reported a fellow cop stealing money from a drug bust.  His report was dismissed, he was reprimanded for making the report by his supervisor because it 'made the department look bad', and he was harassed by other officers until he transferred to another precinct.  With this kind of system in place, there isn't always a place for good officers to go to report bad ones.  And that leads to bad police officers who are permeant fixtures of police departments.

Then there is the long and well documented history of other people in the justice system fudging things to protect bad police officers - techs losing or spoiling evidence, prosecutors not really trying all that hard, etc.  This culture has to stop if there's ever to be hope of reducing the numbers of bad officers on forces.  Until it does, it's reasonable to expect that people are angry about policing.

Again, I don't hold an unshakably negative view of police (I hold them in very high regard).  But the above is a serious problem, and one that obviously works to damage the credibility of policing.  That's why it urgently needs to be fixed.

Kris

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2021, 08:43:47 AM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

The police right?

Oh.

To be fair, you generally never hear about the good police are doing.  The good ones far outnumber the bad ones, for sure.

I'm not saying there isn't a police issue in the US though, because there is and there needs to be some reform.

Do we know this? Do we really?

If there are 1000 good cops and 100 bad cops, and the 1000 good cops do nothing to stop the 100 bad cops, then we have 1100 bad cops.

OK, so what's your argument?  That policing is a magnet for people who want to hurt people, and/or turn the other cheek?  My point was that news tends to focus on the negative, and that isn't just with regards to police. 

People who hold this unshakable negative view of the police are just as much a problem as those who think they can do no wrong.

My argument is that it is a systemic problem that turns arguably well-intentioned cops into part of the problem.
 
And if the problem is systemic, pretending that every incident is an isolated case of a "bad apple" and the rest of them are "good" won't help to solve that systemic problem.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 08:46:14 AM by Kris »

PDXTabs

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2021, 09:45:02 AM »
The problem is that good police officers who do not support bad ones are often subtly or outright reprimanded by their departments - and this makes most of them fall into line eventually.  My uncle is a police officer, and he reported a fellow cop stealing money from a drug bust.  His report was dismissed, he was reprimanded for making the report by his supervisor because it 'made the department look bad', and he was harassed by other officers until he transferred to another precinct.  With this kind of system in place, there isn't always a place for good officers to go to report bad ones.  And that leads to bad police officers who are permeant fixtures of police departments.

Yup, I once knew a female cadet of color who was harassed out of a west coast US police department that you would recognize the name of, presumably because of her race and perhaps her gender. It didn't matter that the chief had her back, a small cadre of bad cops managed to intimidate her into resigning. The intimidation included but was not limited to threats of violence against her family. So yea, there were a couple good cops, a handful of bad cops, and a whole bunch that didn't want to get in the middle of that.

PS - Unions for the win!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 09:47:53 AM by PDXTabs »

GuitarStv

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2021, 09:49:20 AM »
The problem is that good police officers who do not support bad ones are often subtly or outright reprimanded by their departments - and this makes most of them fall into line eventually.  My uncle is a police officer, and he reported a fellow cop stealing money from a drug bust.  His report was dismissed, he was reprimanded for making the report by his supervisor because it 'made the department look bad', and he was harassed by other officers until he transferred to another precinct.  With this kind of system in place, there isn't always a place for good officers to go to report bad ones.  And that leads to bad police officers who are permeant fixtures of police departments.

Yup, I once knew a female cadet of color who was harassed out of a west coast US police department that you would recognize the name of, presumably because of her race and perhaps her gender. It didn't matter that the chief had her back, a small cadre of bad cops managed to intimidate her into resigning. The intimidation included but was not limited to threats of violence against her family. So yea, there were a couple good cops, a handful of bad cops, and a whole bunch that didn't want to get in the middle of that.

Yes.

It's not as simplistic as saying that the folks who didn't want to get in the middle of that were 'bad' either.  Maybe they didn't want violence done against their families.  The point is, they shouldn't have ever been put in a place where that was a concern.  We need to come up with a way to make it easier for people to do the right thing . . . not expect them to be superhuman and jump through hoops to be good.

PDXTabs

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2021, 09:59:55 AM »
The point is, they shouldn't have ever been put in a place where that was a concern.

Yup, if my recollection is correct she had the option of wearing a wire, maybe opening and FBI civil rights investigation, but WTF sort of new hire orientation is that?!?!


dignam

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2021, 07:34:28 AM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

The police right?

Oh.

To be fair, you generally never hear about the good police are doing.  The good ones far outnumber the bad ones, for sure.

I'm not saying there isn't a police issue in the US though, because there is and there needs to be some reform.

Do we know this? Do we really?

If there are 1000 good cops and 100 bad cops, and the 1000 good cops do nothing to stop the 100 bad cops, then we have 1100 bad cops.

OK, so what's your argument?  That policing is a magnet for people who want to hurt people, and/or turn the other cheek?  My point was that news tends to focus on the negative, and that isn't just with regards to police. 

People who hold this unshakable negative view of the police are just as much a problem as those who think they can do no wrong.

My argument is that it is a systemic problem that turns arguably well-intentioned cops into part of the problem.
 
And if the problem is systemic, pretending that every incident is an isolated case of a "bad apple" and the rest of them are "good" won't help to solve that systemic problem.

Who here is denying a systemic problem with police?  I even said there are issues.  But blanket statements about cops are stupid and wrong, good or bad.

GuitarStv

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2021, 07:48:50 AM »
Maybe one of these years that old chestnut about 'good guys with guns' will stop being total fantasy and actually come true.

The police right?

Oh.

To be fair, you generally never hear about the good police are doing.  The good ones far outnumber the bad ones, for sure.

I'm not saying there isn't a police issue in the US though, because there is and there needs to be some reform.

Do we know this? Do we really?

If there are 1000 good cops and 100 bad cops, and the 1000 good cops do nothing to stop the 100 bad cops, then we have 1100 bad cops.

OK, so what's your argument?  That policing is a magnet for people who want to hurt people, and/or turn the other cheek?  My point was that news tends to focus on the negative, and that isn't just with regards to police. 

People who hold this unshakable negative view of the police are just as much a problem as those who think they can do no wrong.

My argument is that it is a systemic problem that turns arguably well-intentioned cops into part of the problem.
 
And if the problem is systemic, pretending that every incident is an isolated case of a "bad apple" and the rest of them are "good" won't help to solve that systemic problem.

Who here is denying a systemic problem with police?  I even said there are issues.  But blanket statements about cops are stupid and wrong, good or bad.

I think Kris' comment (good cops who don't report bad cops are also bad cops) is an understandable reaction to the commonly repeated 'it's just a few bad apples' excuse that gets trotted out every time a police officer does something wrong.

As mentioned previously, there exist valid reasons why a police officer might remain silent while fellow officers are doing wrong.  While I wouldn't go as far as saying that these police who remain cowed into silence through fear of reprisal from other officers are 'bad cop' it's also not possible for me to classify them as 'good cops'.  They're somewhere in between.  And that's a real problem.  We currently seem to have a whole lot of mediocre cops unwilling or unable to do the right thing, with a handful of bad ones free to do whatever they want and a handful of good ones who are prevented from doing good by the system they're in.

That's a pretty fucked up and broken way to try to run a policing system.

dignam

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2021, 08:19:30 AM »
I guess I can understand how people could get triggered by someone stating that the bad ones spoil it.  But it isn't a false statement.

As a society we are incredibly polarized; so people expect you to either think all cops are bad/turn the other cheek/corruption everywhere, OR all cop killings have a legit reason because they can do no wrong.  Neither belief is at all helpful, and makes the systemic issues within policing worse.

I'm not sure if we have any LEOs on this board/thread, but we can talk about this all we want without REALLY knowing what goes on in a police department.  We have no idea what pressures the "good" ones really face. 

EvenSteven

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2021, 09:09:48 AM »
I guess I can understand how people could get triggered by someone stating that the bad ones spoil it.  But it isn't a false statement.

As a society we are incredibly polarized; so people expect you to either think all cops are bad/turn the other cheek/corruption everywhere, OR all cop killings have a legit reason because they can do no wrong.  Neither belief is at all helpful, and makes the systemic issues within policing worse.

I'm not sure if we have any LEOs on this board/thread, but we can talk about this all we want without REALLY knowing what goes on in a police department.  We have no idea what pressures the "good" ones really face.

The use, or misuse, of that aphorism in this situation serves more to distract than clarify. The meaning of the saying gets reversed and applied to the views of the opposite groups of who it should apply to.

There is one group who is saying, "Those bad apples are spoiling the bunch."
There is another group saying, "There are some bad apples, but surely they don't spoil the bunch."

Kris

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2021, 09:51:40 AM »
I guess I can understand how people could get triggered by someone stating that the bad ones spoil it.  But it isn't a false statement.

As a society we are incredibly polarized; so people expect you to either think all cops are bad/turn the other cheek/corruption everywhere, OR all cop killings have a legit reason because they can do no wrong.  Neither belief is at all helpful, and makes the systemic issues within policing worse.

I'm not sure if we have any LEOs on this board/thread, but we can talk about this all we want without REALLY knowing what goes on in a police department.  We have no idea what pressures the "good" ones really face.

The use, or misuse, of that aphorism in this situation serves more to distract than clarify. The meaning of the saying gets reversed and applied to the views of the opposite groups of who it should apply to.

There is one group who is saying, "Those bad apples are spoiling the bunch."
There is another group saying, "There are some bad apples, but surely they don't spoil the bunch."

Exactly. The whole point of the original saying about bad apples is NOT that they are distinct from the bunch. It's that they spoil the bunch.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/one-bad-apple-spoil-the-barrel-metaphor-phrase

"A bad apple is generally understood to refer to someone who creates problems for other people, and whose actions or behaviors negatively influence the larger group. The phrase is often interpreted erroneously by implying that a bad apple is not representative of the whole, when in fact the term stems from the larger phrase "one bad apple can spoil the barrel," which suggests that the negativity is not an isolated incident."

RetiredAt63

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Re: Imagine getting shot at when getting your C19 shot....
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2021, 12:36:24 PM »
I guess I can understand how people could get triggered by someone stating that the bad ones spoil it.  But it isn't a false statement.

As a society we are incredibly polarized; so people expect you to either think all cops are bad/turn the other cheek/corruption everywhere, OR all cop killings have a legit reason because they can do no wrong.  Neither belief is at all helpful, and makes the systemic issues within policing worse.

I'm not sure if we have any LEOs on this board/thread, but we can talk about this all we want without REALLY knowing what goes on in a police department.  We have no idea what pressures the "good" ones really face.

The use, or misuse, of that aphorism in this situation serves more to distract than clarify. The meaning of the saying gets reversed and applied to the views of the opposite groups of who it should apply to.

There is one group who is saying, "Those bad apples are spoiling the bunch."
There is another group saying, "There are some bad apples, but surely they don't spoil the bunch."

Exactly. The whole point of the original saying about bad apples is NOT that they are distinct from the bunch. It's that they spoil the bunch.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/one-bad-apple-spoil-the-barrel-metaphor-phrase

"A bad apple is generally understood to refer to someone who creates problems for other people, and whose actions or behaviors negatively influence the larger group. The phrase is often interpreted erroneously by implying that a bad apple is not representative of the whole, when in fact the term stems from the larger phrase "one bad apple can spoil the barrel," which suggests that the negativity is not an isolated incident."

The bad apple can definitely cause the spoilage to spread to other apples in the barrel (or in real life, the bag of apples in the fridge, which makes a real mess to clean).  So if we do a one-to-one shift, this implies the "bad apple" behaviour can spread.  One student cheats on an exam and gets away with it, how many more students will be tempted to cheat on the next exam?  One employee fakes hours worked or expenses claimed, how long before others start doing it too?  And on and on . . .

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!