Author Topic: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?  (Read 12831 times)

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2021, 05:42:39 AM »
Well, it appears that this thread wasn't just mental masturbation after all.  But it looks like the filibuster will stand, as Joe Manchin has already said that he will not support ending it.  So, that takes any sweeping legislation off the table, and limits Biden to acting through appointments, regulations, and maybe things that can be squeezed into budget reconciliation bills.  Perhaps that might produce a fix for the ACA, and maybe there is room for some mild bipartisan action on climate change.  But the bolder ideas like DC/Puerto Rico statewide are just wild fantasies at this point.

Joe Manchin will get on board with the Democratic Party’s agenda if there is something in it for him, which is how politics generally works. Look for pork added to bills that aids West Virginia.

That would actually be a "good" thing in this case, IMO.

WV is one of the poorest states. Extra federal investment there (="pork") is very much warranted there. Even if the result is more federal deficit, in exchange of the structural changes the country badly needs, then that would be very much worth it. I just hope Munchin does not push for unproductive pork and actually bargains for real investments that will help West Virginians.

I don't expect, however, that Biden will push that.

American GenX

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2021, 11:01:36 AM »

I would like to see him undo the latest round of Chinese tariffs.

Also, improvements to the ACA

Anything COVID related.

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5653
  • Location: US Midwest - Where Jokes Are Tricky These Days
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2021, 12:14:26 PM »
Well, it appears that this thread wasn't just mental masturbation after all.  But it looks like the filibuster will stand, as Joe Manchin has already said that he will not support ending it.  So, that takes any sweeping legislation off the table, and limits Biden to acting through appointments, regulations, and maybe things that can be squeezed into budget reconciliation bills.  Perhaps that might produce a fix for the ACA, and maybe there is room for some mild bipartisan action on climate change.  But the bolder ideas like DC/Puerto Rico statewide are just wild fantasies at this point.

Joe Manchin will get on board with the Democratic Party’s agenda if there is something in it for him, which is how politics generally works. Look for pork added to bills that aids West Virginia.

That would actually be a "good" thing in this case, IMO.

WV is one of the poorest states. Extra federal investment there (="pork") is very much warranted there. Even if the result is more federal deficit, in exchange of the structural changes the country badly needs, then that would be very much worth it. I just hope Munchin does not push for unproductive pork and actually bargains for real investments that will help West Virginians.

I don't expect, however, that Biden will push that.

Good calls - that I hadn't thought of!

Will keep eyes peeled nose open for the enticing smell of bacon being fried up in West Virginia. Hope it's tasty and well chosen.

Abe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2021, 01:24:14 PM »
Maybe it'll be green pork and ham. Like subsidized wind or solar jobs for low-income / unemployed blue-collar workers. My relatives have lived there for decades and it seems people are coming around to that, especially on top of the mountains that were blown up for coal (ground and water is too toxic for anything like farming or residential/commercial). Or even at the oil refinery the town is built around and is almost shuttered. Maybe the rental fees the energy companies get will convince them to switch (they own a lot of land in WV).

I think that should be Biden's priority - red states will like the subsidies and jobs, blue states will like the reduction in oil/gas/coal. Tying it to social issues isn't a good idea if those are race-based, which will really tank the green deal.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 01:26:05 PM by Abe »

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2021, 05:20:09 PM »
Well, it appears that this thread wasn't just mental masturbation after all.  But it looks like the filibuster will stand, as Joe Manchin has already said that he will not support ending it.  So, that takes any sweeping legislation off the table, and limits Biden to acting through appointments, regulations, and maybe things that can be squeezed into budget reconciliation bills.  Perhaps that might produce a fix for the ACA, and maybe there is room for some mild bipartisan action on climate change.  But the bolder ideas like DC/Puerto Rico statewide are just wild fantasies at this point.

Joe Manchin will get on board with the Democratic Party’s agenda if there is something in it for him, which is how politics generally works. Look for pork added to bills that aids West Virginia.

I don't doubt that Manchin will support much of the Democratic Party's agenda.  However, he won't support eliminating the filibuster, which means the Republicans can still tank the Democratic Party's agenda.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #105 on: January 09, 2021, 05:27:05 PM »
Well, it appears that this thread wasn't just mental masturbation after all.  But it looks like the filibuster will stand, as Joe Manchin has already said that he will not support ending it.  So, that takes any sweeping legislation off the table, and limits Biden to acting through appointments, regulations, and maybe things that can be squeezed into budget reconciliation bills.  Perhaps that might produce a fix for the ACA, and maybe there is room for some mild bipartisan action on climate change.  But the bolder ideas like DC/Puerto Rico statewide are just wild fantasies at this point.

Joe Manchin will get on board with the Democratic Party’s agenda if there is something in it for him, which is how politics generally works. Look for pork added to bills that aids West Virginia.

That would actually be a "good" thing in this case, IMO.

WV is one of the poorest states. Extra federal investment there (="pork") is very much warranted there. Even if the result is more federal deficit, in exchange of the structural changes the country badly needs, then that would be very much worth it. I just hope Munchin does not push for unproductive pork and actually bargains for real investments that will help West Virginians.

I don't expect, however, that Biden will push that.

Manchin is on the appropriations, armed services, and veteran's affairs committee, and he is poised to take over as chair of the energy and natural resources committee.  So look for him to be in the driver's seat on many consequential issues, especially any legislation related to climate change.  There will certainly be pork for West Virginia involved, but the main thing I worry about is the likelihood that any climate change legislation will be watered down to the point where it is meaningless.  He does acknowledge the need for action on climate change, but he is still a stubborn supporter of the fossil fuel industries.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #106 on: January 09, 2021, 05:32:32 PM »
Maybe it'll be green pork and ham. Like subsidized wind or solar jobs for low-income / unemployed blue-collar workers. My relatives have lived there for decades and it seems people are coming around to that, especially on top of the mountains that were blown up for coal (ground and water is too toxic for anything like farming or residential/commercial). Or even at the oil refinery the town is built around and is almost shuttered. Maybe the rental fees the energy companies get will convince them to switch (they own a lot of land in WV).

I think that should be Biden's priority - red states will like the subsidies and jobs, blue states will like the reduction in oil/gas/coal. Tying it to social issues isn't a good idea if those are race-based, which will really tank the green deal.

Yes, solar is finally starting to catch on here, as people are slowly realizing that it is one of the few potentially productive uses of land that has been destroyed by surface mining.  But a lot of people are still reflexively opposed to it because they see it as competition for coal and gas.  I think Manchin, and maybe even others in the state's delegation (all Republicans), will support it, though, because of the jobs potential.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #107 on: January 09, 2021, 06:10:33 PM »
From the govtrack link I posted earlier, Kyrsten Synema seems to be more conservative leaning than Manchin. So Munchin may not end up becoming the deciding vote - but rather Synema.


ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #108 on: January 09, 2021, 06:13:41 PM »
I don't doubt that Manchin will support much of the Democratic Party's agenda.  However, he won't support eliminating the filibuster, which means the Republicans can still tank the Democratic Party's agenda.

The republican party is not capable of any meaningful compromises. The "establishment" proved this during Obamacare and till 2016, and the Trump wing is just insane so there is no point talking to them anyway.

This means that without at least partial Filibuster removal there won't be anything achieved except for a initial COVID related grand stimulus.

If I had to bet, this is what I'd bet on.

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3150
  • she/her
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #109 on: January 09, 2021, 08:50:35 PM »
I don't doubt that Manchin will support much of the Democratic Party's agenda.  However, he won't support eliminating the filibuster, which means the Republicans can still tank the Democratic Party's agenda.

The republican party is not capable of any meaningful compromises. The "establishment" proved this during Obamacare and till 2016, and the Trump wing is just insane so there is no point talking to them anyway.

This means that without at least partial Filibuster removal there won't be anything achieved except for a initial COVID related grand stimulus.

If I had to bet, this is what I'd bet on.

Agree except to say "anything legislative.". There's a lot that can be done (repaired) just by having the likes of Devos, Barr,  Pompeo, etc. out of the executive branch. That's mostly where my hopes lay as far as proving to voters that it is worthwhile to have competent people who are genuinely interested in governing effectively in power, rather than people that just want to prove correct their claim that government is ineffective and full of waste, fraud and abuse.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2021, 04:32:47 AM »
From the govtrack link I posted earlier, Kyrsten Synema seems to be more conservative leaning than Manchin. So Munchin may not end up becoming the deciding vote - but rather Synema.

Has she expressed a position on the filibuster?  If there are two or more Dems against removal of the filibuster, then it is even more unlikely to happen.

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1983
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2021, 07:27:24 AM »
From the govtrack link I posted earlier, Kyrsten Synema seems to be more conservative leaning than Manchin. So Munchin may not end up becoming the deciding vote - but rather Synema.

Has she expressed a position on the filibuster?  If there are two or more Dems against removal of the filibuster, then it is even more unlikely to happen.

The hesitancy to remove the filibuster is because if and when the Republicans get back into power, they would have free reign to make some really bad changes. Like, REALLY bad changes.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2021, 03:39:18 AM »
From the govtrack link I posted earlier, Kyrsten Synema seems to be more conservative leaning than Manchin. So Munchin may not end up becoming the deciding vote - but rather Synema.

Has she expressed a position on the filibuster?  If there are two or more Dems against removal of the filibuster, then it is even more unlikely to happen.

The hesitancy to remove the filibuster is because if and when the Republicans get back into power, they would have free reign to make some really bad changes. Like, REALLY bad changes.
The existance of the filibuster didn't prevent that in the past though ;)

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5350
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2021, 02:06:39 PM »
Actually the filibuster limited the size of the tax cuts to what the parliamentarian would accept as "budget reconciliation". It also prevented more drastic changes from being made to the ACA by the Senate.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #114 on: January 13, 2021, 06:11:51 PM »
After the events of the last couple of months, there's another priority that needs to be moved to the top of the list: identifying, designating, and neutralizing domestic terrorist groups, including rooting out members/sympathizers in law enforcement and the military.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2021, 04:07:13 AM »
After the events of the last couple of months, there's another priority that needs to be moved to the top of the list: identifying, designating, and neutralizing domestic terrorist groups, including rooting out members/sympathizers in law enforcement and the military.
You already have the highest incarceration ratte in the world. You want to double that?

Abe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #116 on: January 14, 2021, 04:13:30 AM »
After the events of the last couple of months, there's another priority that needs to be moved to the top of the list: identifying, designating, and neutralizing domestic terrorist groups, including rooting out members/sympathizers in law enforcement and the military.
You already have the highest incarceration ratte in the world. You want to double that?

We can let the potheads out and replace them with the violent extremists. Seems like a fair trade. I don’t think that particular statistic should influence our management of a major national security situation. Maybe we’re just a more violent society.

Unique User

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 718
  • Location: NC
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #117 on: January 14, 2021, 07:21:05 AM »
It may have been mentioned before, but renewal of the Fairness Doctrine and application to any site claiming to be news including cable/satellite (looking at you Fox, OANN, Newsmax) would be helpful in reigning in some of the constant lies.  I'm regularly shocked at the radicalization of elderly in-law family members by Fox. 

American GenX

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #118 on: January 14, 2021, 01:10:28 PM »
Biden wants to add even more trillions of dollars to our debt by sending out more money to people and doubling unemployment benefits.   I voted for him, but I oppose both of these plans.  I hope they can stop him.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2021, 06:00:41 PM »
Biden wants to add even more trillions of dollars to our debt by sending out more money to people and doubling unemployment benefits.   I voted for him, but I oppose both of these plans.  I hope they can stop him.

I agree with extending unemployment benefits.  People out of work need the help.  But the stimulus checks are pure vote-buying.  Sure, I'll put mine to good use, but I still think it's bad public policy.

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3150
  • she/her
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2021, 07:24:19 PM »
Biden wants to add even more trillions of dollars to our debt by sending out more money to people and doubling unemployment benefits.   I voted for him, but I oppose both of these plans.  I hope they can stop him.

I agree with extending unemployment benefits.  People out of work need the help.  But the stimulus checks are pure vote-buying.  Sure, I'll put mine to good use, but I still think it's bad public policy.

I don't know.  There are soooooo many people that are not eligible for unemployment now, because our economy has moved so far toward gig workers and other contractors that aren't officially employees, or for all the devastated small business owners.  Lots of desperation in their ranks as well and I don't know how they are supported or why those with official W-2 jobs should get preferential treatment (aka potentially shelter or life-saving support)?

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1768
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2021, 04:32:08 AM »
Biden wants to add even more trillions of dollars to our debt by sending out more money to people and doubling unemployment benefits.   I voted for him, but I oppose both of these plans.  I hope they can stop him.

I agree with extending unemployment benefits.  People out of work need the help.  But the stimulus checks are pure vote-buying.  Sure, I'll put mine to good use, but I still think it's bad public policy.


I don't know.  There are soooooo many people that are not eligible for unemployment now, because our economy has moved so far toward gig workers and other contractors that aren't officially employees, or for all the devastated small business owners.  Lots of desperation in their ranks as well and I don't know how they are supported or why those with official W-2 jobs should get preferential treatment (aka potentially shelter or life-saving support)?

Supposedly the self-employed and gig workers were included in the expanded unemployment benefits that were passed previously, although I've heard horror stories about how difficult it is to actually get the benefits.  Seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to extend unemployment benefits to those folks.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 06:04:04 PM by Monkey Uncle »

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2021, 05:07:28 AM »
Purely anecdotally (I am yet to see a proper economic study done on this), the business facing portions of the last big stimulus - the PPP and such - did not work very well. At least that is what the business owners seem to suggest, and many of them went out of business anyway.

Again anecdotally, people swear that the last round of checks + the unemployment insurance went to meet daily necessities. There aren't many Mustachians out there who will put that money straight to VTSAX.

My impression (without the backing of proper research) is that stimulus given to the workers go further in stimulating the economy than those focused on the capital owners.


Luck12

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 423
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2021, 05:41:06 AM »
Biden wants to add even more trillions of dollars to our debt by sending out more money to people and doubling unemployment benefits.   I voted for him, but I oppose both of these plans.  I hope they can stop him.

Many people make the mistake of thinking of it as debt (and I too used to think of it that way years ago), it's not.  I really suggest people read the Deficit Myth.  Hypothetically let's say the US Gov't spends $3T to just give people money without doing anything else.   The Fed instructs banks to mark up people's checking accounts (this is what is often referred to as printing money).  $3T of Treasury securities is then issued.  That's it.  The fed gov't doesn't borrow the money.   The $3T is what is considered added debt even though it's not. 

The only limiting factors as far as gov't spending goes are inflation and whether we have the resources (labor, factories, machinery, etc) to absorb the increased spending.  If you want to argue against increased stimulus for these reasons fine but to argue against them b/c of federal "debt" is just being misinformed.   
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 05:44:12 AM by Luck12 »

Michael in ABQ

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2820
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2021, 06:00:51 AM »
Biden wants to add even more trillions of dollars to our debt by sending out more money to people and doubling unemployment benefits.   I voted for him, but I oppose both of these plans.  I hope they can stop him.

Many people make the mistake of thinking of it as debt (and I too used to think of it that way years ago), it's not.  I really suggest people read the Deficit Myth.  Hypothetically let's say the US Gov't spends $3T to just give people money without doing anything else.   The Fed instructs banks to mark up people's checking accounts (this is what is often referred to as printing money).  $3T of Treasury securities is then issued.  That's it.  The fed gov't doesn't borrow the money.   The $3T is what is considered added debt even though it's not. 

The only limiting factors as far as gov't spending goes are inflation and whether we have the resources (labor, factories, machinery, etc) to absorb the increased spending.  If you want to argue against increased stimulus for these reasons fine but to argue against them b/c of federal "debt" is just being misinformed.   

Out of the trillions the government spends each year, the interest on the national debt (almost $28 trillion) is now approaching $400 billion - even with historically low interest rates. So adding another $3 trillion in debt, even at very low interest rates, adds tens of billions in annual interest. And if interest rates go up even moderately, that $400 billion in interest could balloon up to $500 or $600 billion or more. That is a real cost that has to be paid out of federal revenues and takes money away from other priorities.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2431
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2021, 06:23:07 AM »
We wouldn't even be in this giant hole if we hadn't had big unnecessary tax cuts to corporations when the economy was already going well.  Now there's a legitimate disaster that requires government spending/increasing the deficit, and people are arguing we've already spent it.  Yeah, when we didn't even need to.  But now we need to, so I guess that's just too bad.  I haven't gotten any of the stimulus checks, so I don't have a personal stake in this debate, but I do find it comforting that my extended family members qualify and that it's helping some of them out who really need it.  I know some small business owners who are still barely hanging on and I'd like them to make it to the other side of this, too.  This is a temporary situation until we can get our act together and get this vaccine out, so let's do what we need to in order to salvage what we can so the damage isn't permanent.  Some of those ships have already sailed/sunk/burned, but let's try to save what's left and worry about the deficit when we're on the other side of this. 

American GenX

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2021, 11:47:15 AM »
Crap, as if it wasn't bad enough to increase the massive debt by sending out another $1400 (and much more to couples & families) that usually don't need it and doubling unemployment benefits so that people have no incentive to return to work when they can sit at home and be better off living off taxpayer money....

Now Biden wants to include a $15/hr minimum wage increase in his stimulus.   Talk about hitting small businesses when they are down!  I've seen nothing but bad things and increased inflation and more businesses closing or relocating when minimum wage has been increased in my state, which is still scheduled to increase further!   Biden wants to put these increases on steroids and roll them out everywhere.  This is a bad sign for this presidency.  Sadly, Biden seemed like the safest vote.  I would definitely feel better if the Republicans had maintained control of the Senate, but that ship has sailed.  I sure hope Congress doesn't pass these things.

Michael in ABQ

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2820
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2021, 12:01:07 PM »
We wouldn't even be in this giant hole if we hadn't had big unnecessary tax cuts to corporations when the economy was already going well.  Now there's a legitimate disaster that requires government spending/increasing the deficit, and people are arguing we've already spent it.  Yeah, when we didn't even need to.  But now we need to, so I guess that's just too bad.  I haven't gotten any of the stimulus checks, so I don't have a personal stake in this debate, but I do find it comforting that my extended family members qualify and that it's helping some of them out who really need it.  I know some small business owners who are still barely hanging on and I'd like them to make it to the other side of this, too.  This is a temporary situation until we can get our act together and get this vaccine out, so let's do what we need to in order to salvage what we can so the damage isn't permanent.  Some of those ships have already sailed/sunk/burned, but let's try to save what's left and worry about the deficit when we're on the other side of this.

Tax cuts alone do not account for $28 trillion in debt. Reduced revenue is part of the equation, but the bottom line is that it's been decades since we had a balanced budget. Congress controls the purse strings and it's not their money. So what do they care if we borrow a few hundred billion here or a couple trillion there? After all, it's not like they're going to be stuck paying it back. If there's one area where bipartisanship is alive and well, it's spending money we don't have.

Michael in ABQ

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2820
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2021, 12:12:04 PM »
Crap, as if it wasn't bad enough to increase the massive debt by sending out another $1400 (and much more to couples & families) that usually don't need it and doubling unemployment benefits so that people have no incentive to return to work when they can sit at home and be better off living off taxpayer money....

Now Biden wants to include a $15/hr minimum wage increase in his stimulus.   Talk about hitting small businesses when they are down!  I've seen nothing but bad things and increased inflation and more businesses closing or relocating when minimum wage has been increased in my state, which is still scheduled to increase further!   Biden wants to put these increases on steroids and roll them out everywhere.  This is a bad sign for this presidency.  Sadly, Biden seemed like the safest vote.  I would definitely feel better if the Republicans had maintained control of the Senate, but that ship has sailed.  I sure hope Congress doesn't pass these things.

So if this whole $1.9 trillion package actually passed (unlikely) my family would probably get over $10k between the extra $1,400 (not sure if that's just for adults or kids too) and larger child tax credits of $3,000 and $3,600 for kids under 6. Frankly it's just ridiculous. I'm not going to ignore the money falling from the sky if the government keeps throwing it from a helicopter. But I wish they would stop doing so. Oh and $15 minimum wage is really going to help all those struggling restaurants who can barely keep the doors open. 

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2021, 04:36:59 PM »


My impression (without the backing of proper research) is that stimulus given to the workers go further in stimulating the economy than those focused on the capital owners.

Your impression is correct.

Most people have a propensity to consume most of their "regular" income and most of any extra income they receive. IIRC, their propensity to consume results in them spending  >90% of their "regular" income and the same for extra income.

Saver Mu$tachians are an anomaly.

Virtually all the people who are poor/broke due to the pandemic will immediately begin to spend all the stimulus   they receive because they must to secure the rudiments of life.

Whatever difference there  may be in the commencement of the velocity of money received and spent by poor and  broke people versus that received and spent by well-heeled investors, I think it will almost always commence later for the latter.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 04:52:27 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Abe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2021, 07:43:30 PM »
Crap, as if it wasn't bad enough to increase the massive debt by sending out another $1400 (and much more to couples & families) that usually don't need it and doubling unemployment benefits so that people have no incentive to return to work when they can sit at home and be better off living off taxpayer money....

Now Biden wants to include a $15/hr minimum wage increase in his stimulus.   Talk about hitting small businesses when they are down!  I've seen nothing but bad things and increased inflation and more businesses closing or relocating when minimum wage has been increased in my state, which is still scheduled to increase further!   Biden wants to put these increases on steroids and roll them out everywhere.  This is a bad sign for this presidency.  Sadly, Biden seemed like the safest vote.  I would definitely feel better if the Republicans had maintained control of the Senate, but that ship has sailed.  I sure hope Congress doesn't pass these things.

So if this whole $1.9 trillion package actually passed (unlikely) my family would probably get over $10k between the extra $1,400 (not sure if that's just for adults or kids too) and larger child tax credits of $3,000 and $3,600 for kids under 6. Frankly it's just ridiculous. I'm not going to ignore the money falling from the sky if the government keeps throwing it from a helicopter. But I wish they would stop doing so. Oh and $15 minimum wage is really going to help all those struggling restaurants who can barely keep the doors open.

What would be an adequate solution instead?

Milizard

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 769
  • Location: West Michigan
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2021, 09:46:10 PM »
I think the stimulus is fine, but not the minimum wage increase at this time. First thing, deal with covid, and take the trash out--Trumps slimey incompetent appointees. Get good people in those positions, and then work on structural changes so that another Trump can't come along, do so much damage, and be successful in taking down our democracy. Limit pardon powers. Better checks and balances.

Then, what others have mentioned here.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2021, 04:41:18 AM »
Yes, Minimum Wage increase is decisivly not a good idea at the moment. Especially if you do it in big jumps. I love high minimum wages for the obvious economical and human benefits, but you have to increase it carefully so that the economy can adopt to it. A pandemic with closed shops certainly has enough other shit going to adopt to that you should not put more on the table.
It's good for your health to do some training. But not on the day you already had an heart attack!

Purely anecdotally (I am yet to see a proper economic study done on this), the business facing portions of the last big stimulus - the PPP and such - did not work very well. At least that is what the business owners seem to suggest, and many of them went out of business anyway.

Again anecdotally, people swear that the last round of checks + the unemployment insurance went to meet daily necessities. There aren't many Mustachians out there who will put that money straight to VTSAX.

My impression (without the backing of proper research) is that stimulus given to the workers go further in stimulating the economy than those focused on the capital owners.
Don't worry, others have done the research and yes, both intuitive thought and logic, and the research result are on the same side.
If you give money to poor people they spend it. If you give it to rich, they "invest" it (meaning in most cases the capital market, not an investment into production capacities - for the obvious reason in an economic crisis that there is no need for more capacity).

Biden wants to add even more trillions of dollars to our debt by sending out more money to people and doubling unemployment benefits.   I voted for him, but I oppose both of these plans.  I hope they can stop him.

Many people make the mistake of thinking of it as debt (and I too used to think of it that way years ago), it's not.  I really suggest people read the Deficit Myth.  Hypothetically let's say the US Gov't spends $3T to just give people money without doing anything else.   The Fed instructs banks to mark up people's checking accounts (this is what is often referred to as printing money).  $3T of Treasury securities is then issued.  That's it.  The fed gov't doesn't borrow the money.   The $3T is what is considered added debt even though it's not. 

The only limiting factors as far as gov't spending goes are inflation and whether we have the resources (labor, factories, machinery, etc) to absorb the increased spending.  If you want to argue against increased stimulus for these reasons fine but to argue against them b/c of federal "debt" is just being misinformed.   

Out of the trillions the government spends each year, the interest on the national debt (almost $28 trillion) is now approaching $400 billion - even with historically low interest rates. So adding another $3 trillion in debt, even at very low interest rates, adds tens of billions in annual interest. And if interest rates go up even moderately, that $400 billion in interest could balloon up to $500 or $600 billion or more. That is a real cost that has to be paid out of federal revenues and takes money away from other priorities.

Funnily enough that is not necessarily so. If you go down to the ultimate basics.
The state has the dept.
The National bank, that has created that money, is the holder.
What happens if you forfeit this debt?
The state has less debt.
The National Bank has less "money that we destroy when the state pays it back".

Not a single cent is actually moved in the real economy.

Quote
doubling unemployment benefits so that people have no incentive to return to work when they can sit at home
With this sentence I always wonder:
To what work should they go if nobody is hiring them?

Quote
Tax cuts alone do not account for $28 trillion in debt. Reduced revenue is part of the equation, but the bottom line is that it's been decades since we had a balanced budget.
On that topic, regarding to towns in the US, watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0
How America Bankrupted its Cities - The Growth Ponzi Scheme

American GenX

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2021, 10:27:31 PM »

I read that a large number of migrants are headed to the U.S.  They think that Biden will be weak on immigration, so they are going to take advantage.  This is definitely concerning.  This was one of Trump's few strong points, and I worry if Biden can handle it, especially with the pressure from the far left open borders group.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4341
  • Location: Germany
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #134 on: January 17, 2021, 04:29:43 AM »

I read that a large number of migrants are headed to the U.S.  They think that Biden will be weak on immigration, so they are going to take advantage.  This is definitely concerning.  This was one of Trump's few strong points, and I worry if Biden can handle it, especially with the pressure from the far left open borders group.
Language is a faszinating thing. Especially the framing it allows.

I would think that "weak on immigration" means someone cannot handle it, and instead closes borders. But it is always used in the opposite.

But the thing I find really strange is that so many people in the country, that is most of all known for accepting every immigrant, are against immigrants. Especially considering they practically are all descendents of immigrants and would such be illegal and should be kicked out violently according to their own values.
Not to mention that they ignore the fact that the immigrants were always the reason for the US strength in economy and science.

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 959
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #135 on: January 17, 2021, 08:12:40 AM »

I read that a large number of migrants are headed to the U.S.  They think that Biden will be weak on immigration, so they are going to take advantage.  This is definitely concerning.  This was one of Trump's few strong points, and I worry if Biden can handle it, especially with the pressure from the far left open borders group.

Why are you personally so afraid of immigrants? Are immigrants bad people? Are they simply ambitious, threatening your job?

For all of US history, this country OF immigrants has generally been receptive to "certain types" of immigrants. AKA White People. It's when the immigrants were Asian or Latino that the racism really came out. Hell, even the Eastern Europeans/Jews/Russians got less crap then the Latinos have over the last 40 years.

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3150
  • she/her
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #136 on: January 17, 2021, 09:07:55 AM »
Yeah, all the evidence is that immigration has consistently been a boon to our economy. I've never heard an argument against immigration that isn't based on either lack of facts or fear of "cultural change" (the "taco trucks on every corner" terror).