Author Topic: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?  (Read 11116 times)

bacchi

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2020, 09:33:31 AM »
The 2022 senate map is not as bad for Dems as you might think. Mostly they all lost in 2016. That said, it all depends on how big any majority Dems might win in the senate is this year. 1 vote margin makes even an ok map an emergency.

I heard someone today say that there's an idea of trying to make a state of of the Navajo nation. I wonder if some really out there ideas will be floated for the sole purpose of allowing biden to shoot them down and feel like he's being moderate? Honestly I still expect him to shoot most things down except a covid relief package and some kind of voting rights package. Then they'll try to do something big that they try to negotiate in good faith on with the Republicans and we can just start the clock over from 2010, because Democrats do not learn.

Like a level, Biden always finds the (Democratic) middle. He's done that his entire life.

If the party pulls left, Biden will follow. I hope.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2020, 10:45:31 AM »
The 2022 senate map is not as bad for Dems as you might think. Mostly they all lost in 2016. That said, it all depends on how big any majority Dems might win in the senate is this year. 1 vote margin makes even an ok map an emergency.

I heard someone today say that there's an idea of trying to make a state of of the Navajo nation. I wonder if some really out there ideas will be floated for the sole purpose of allowing biden to shoot them down and feel like he's being moderate? Honestly I still expect him to shoot most things down except a covid relief package and some kind of voting rights package. Then they'll try to do something big that they try to negotiate in good faith on with the Republicans and we can just start the clock over from 2010, because Democrats do not learn.

I don't really understand why leftists bash moderates so much. "Moderate" is just a political term for "normal person." The typical American is not an extremist of any kind but likes to find the middle-of-the-road approach that works for most people and has enough support to get bills passed. It makes no sense to pull too hard to the left or the right when it results in no legislation being passed, which is pretty much what has happened for the last (at a minimum) seven years. The typical American is okay with compromise if it means they get at least some of what they want. Compromise is not a dirty word. It's the way you get things done.

I think leftists got the wrong message from 2016. The real story in 2016 was that leftists decided to parrot talking points from Breitbart to accidentally help Trump win the White House because Hillary Clinton refused to tell everybody that she was going to give them things it would have been impossible to deliver on.

sherr

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2020, 10:59:38 AM »
I don't really understand why leftists bash moderates so much. "Moderate" is just a political term for "normal person." The typical American is not an extremist of any kind but likes to find the middle-of-the-road approach that works for most people and has enough support to get bills passed. It makes no sense to pull too hard to the left or the right when it results in no legislation being passed, which is pretty much what has happened for the last (at a minimum) seven years. The typical American is okay with compromise if it means they get at least some of what they want. Compromise is not a dirty word. It's the way you get things done.

Lol, what? Republicans are the ones who despise "compromise" and "moderates", not "leftists". Republicans openly and intentionally engage in complete obstruction when they are not in power. Any Republican congressman who is not far-right is quickly primaried as a "Republican In Name Only".

What Sui actually said was that it's pointless to try to compromise with Republicans, because they don't want to compromise they want to obstruct, which is completely true. And from that you got "leftists hate moderates and compromise"?

LennStar

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2020, 12:39:03 PM »
What Sui actually said was that it's pointless to try to compromise with Republicans, because they don't want to compromise they want to obstruct, which is completely true. And from that you got "leftists hate moderates and compromise"?
And not only that, but they use the rules to chain Dems (who always try to act by the rules) but ignore them totally when it is convenient. (If you need an example, just look at that judge spectacle - preventing a judge elected 9(?) month before an election if it doesn't suit them, but pressing one through with all means before the old body is cold if it is in their interest).
That has been the modus operandi for what, 20 years? 30? And is one of the main reasons why people all over the world are saying "Our politicians might be corrupt or stupid, or both, but at least not as bad as the ones in the USA!"

talltexan

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2020, 01:56:48 PM »
Hmmm, now it's looking like Trump favors stimulus, but McConnell--who doesn't expect to lose his Senate seat--is the hold-out. Could it be that McConnell would rather keep people hungry and angry during a Biden first term to make sure it's Biden's only term?

Travis

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2020, 05:09:31 PM »
Hmmm, now it's looking like Trump favors stimulus, but McConnell--who doesn't expect to lose his Senate seat--is the hold-out. Could it be that McConnell would rather keep people hungry and angry during a Biden first term to make sure it's Biden's only term?

Every day of the week, yes.

I don't really understand why leftists bash moderates so much. "Moderate" is just a political term for "normal person." The typical American is not an extremist of any kind but likes to find the middle-of-the-road approach that works for most people and has enough support to get bills passed. It makes no sense to pull too hard to the left or the right when it results in no legislation being passed, which is pretty much what has happened for the last (at a minimum) seven years. The typical American is okay with compromise if it means they get at least some of what they want. Compromise is not a dirty word. It's the way you get things done.

Lol, what? Republicans are the ones who despise "compromise" and "moderates", not "leftists". Republicans openly and intentionally engage in complete obstruction when they are not in power. Any Republican congressman who is not far-right is quickly primaried as a "Republican In Name Only".

What Sui actually said was that it's pointless to try to compromise with Republicans, because they don't want to compromise they want to obstruct, which is completely true. And from that you got "leftists hate moderates and compromise"?

McConnell has gone on the record stating his purpose in life is to make it impossible for Democrats in power to get anything done.

sherr

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2020, 05:13:38 PM »
McConnell has gone on the record stating his purpose in life is to make it impossible for Democrats in power to get anything done.

True. It's not just McConnell though, he's just happy to be the fall guy because he's in a safe seat. It was Newt Gingrich before him in the house. It will be someone else after McConnell is gone. It's the entire party. They campaign on the idea that government is bad and inefficient and poorly run and should be destroyed, and then they use every bit of power they have when they get elected to ensure that it's true. That's their goal. Why would they compromise? If they compromise then the government would actually get stuff done, which is not what Republicans want.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 05:17:18 PM by sherr »

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2020, 05:49:25 PM »
It is true that Republicans are largely obstructionists with whom reasonable compromise is generally not possible.  But it does not follow that the appropriate response from Democrats is to move as far to the left as possible.  They should focus on accomplishing things that most (or at least a plurality of) Americans want to see accomplished.  Do that without Republican help if necessary, but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves.  That is the way to get re-elected so that they can keep accomplishing good things for the American people.  Focusing on divisive issues and taking the most liberal positions possible is the surest way to lose Congress in the mid-terms.

sherr

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2020, 06:01:09 PM »
While I agree with you in general, there is an obvious counterpoint: the ACA.

The ACA was not a far-left divisive issue, it is actually a very moderate solution to a problem that very much affected the entire country at the time. It was such a Republican idea in fact that the Republicans haven't been able to come up with a better replacement a decade later. It didn't matter. The Republicans characterized it as a far-left divisive issue, still to this day are calling it that, and managed to convince enough of the population to retake the House in the mid-terms and prevent Obama from doing much of anything else for the next 6 years.

So if the Republicans are going to scream SOCIALISM! (oh I'm sorry, these days the scare-word is MARXISM!) at everything you do anyway, then you might as well do what you want and not worry about what Republicans think.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 06:05:50 PM by sherr »

NaN

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2020, 08:16:00 PM »
One strong reason Democrats are in this mess is because Obama did not move hard enough to the left in 2009 when he had the votes in the Senate. Had the Democratic majority pursued DC statehood by removing the filibuster on statehood votes and pushed a bunch of judges through earlier without the filibuster (as they did in 2013, only until after Obama's reelection) the Democrats would not nearly be in as bad of shape as they are now. McConnell realized this, and took advantage of it. And guess what, he won based on the fact both him and his friends are still in office. Harry Reid lost whatever political game was being played. Really though, President Obama got schooled and had no spine early on.

As much as I liked Obama as a person, he left the Democratic party much worse than how he found it.

The only saving grace for Trump is McConnell. The Republican Senators since 2014 have been about as powerful of a Senate in modern history. While we focus on the Presidential election nonstop, the Senate race is almost equally as important.


LennStar

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2020, 03:44:19 AM »
It is true that Republicans are largely obstructionists with whom reasonable compromise is generally not possible.  But it does not follow that the appropriate response from Democrats is to move as far to the left as possible.  They should focus on accomplishing things that most (or at least a plurality of) Americans want to see accomplished.  Do that without Republican help if necessary, but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves.  That is the way to get re-elected so that they can keep accomplishing good things for the American people.  Focusing on divisive issues and taking the most liberal positions possible is the surest way to lose Congress in the mid-terms.

Correct me if I am wrong. En enclave is a part of a state that is incircled by another state.
We don't meed to take that literally, but the point is the encirclement.
As far as I know the liberal (Democrats) areas are the costs and the big lake area.
And in the North is the even more liberal Canada while the south is socialist Mexico.
So for me it looks definitely like the Reps are living in an enclave.
Wrong?


Also many things that are labeled "divisive issues" - and that mostly comes from the Republicans - are not at all devisive. There is just a loud minority making it so.
The most rediculous example is imho the kneeling down before a sports game. Trump made that sound like it's a declaration of independence from humanity.
I seriously wondered if there will be people blowing themselfs up shouting Allah... you have to stand!!

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2020, 04:16:22 AM »
While I agree with you in general, there is an obvious counterpoint: the ACA.

The ACA was not a far-left divisive issue, it is actually a very moderate solution to a problem that very much affected the entire country at the time. It was such a Republican idea in fact that the Republicans haven't been able to come up with a better replacement a decade later. It didn't matter. The Republicans characterized it as a far-left divisive issue, still to this day are calling it that, and managed to convince enough of the population to retake the House in the mid-terms and prevent Obama from doing much of anything else for the next 6 years.

So if the Republicans are going to scream SOCIALISM! (oh I'm sorry, these days the scare-word is MARXISM!) at everything you do anyway, then you might as well do what you want and not worry about what Republicans think.

I think that's what the Democrats did, by passing the ACA with zero Republican votes.  Where they faltered was in not doing a good job explaining and selling the ACA to the people, which allowed the Republicans to draw a socialist caricature of it, which led to the loss of Congress.  Eventually, when the ACA actually started working, people's opinions changed, and the Democrats ultimately benefited from passing a law that has the support of mainstream Americans.  Protecting that law is why the Dems were able to take the House in 2018, and it's a big part of why they have a chance at making gains now.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2020, 04:23:51 AM »
One strong reason Democrats are in this mess is because Obama did not move hard enough to the left in 2009 when he had the votes in the Senate. Had the Democratic majority pursued DC statehood by removing the filibuster on statehood votes and pushed a bunch of judges through earlier without the filibuster (as they did in 2013, only until after Obama's reelection) the Democrats would not nearly be in as bad of shape as they are now. McConnell realized this, and took advantage of it. And guess what, he won based on the fact both him and his friends are still in office. Harry Reid lost whatever political game was being played. Really though, President Obama got schooled and had no spine early on.

As much as I liked Obama as a person, he left the Democratic party much worse than how he found it.

The only saving grace for Trump is McConnell. The Republican Senators since 2014 have been about as powerful of a Senate in modern history. While we focus on the Presidential election nonstop, the Senate race is almost equally as important.

Reid didn't need to remove the filibuster in 2009, because the Democrats had a supermajority then.  I think he was wise to wait until after the 2012 election to remove it on judicial appointments, so as not to inflame the electorate.  And I don't think it is necessarily an open-an-shut case that ramming through DC statehood would have produced an insurmountable Democratic Senate majority.  Yes, they likely would have gained two seats in DC, but how many would they have lost in more moderate states?

These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2020, 04:25:23 AM »
It is true that Republicans are largely obstructionists with whom reasonable compromise is generally not possible.  But it does not follow that the appropriate response from Democrats is to move as far to the left as possible.  They should focus on accomplishing things that most (or at least a plurality of) Americans want to see accomplished.  Do that without Republican help if necessary, but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves.  That is the way to get re-elected so that they can keep accomplishing good things for the American people.  Focusing on divisive issues and taking the most liberal positions possible is the surest way to lose Congress in the mid-terms.

Correct me if I am wrong. En enclave is a part of a state that is incircled by another state.
We don't meed to take that literally, but the point is the encirclement.
As far as I know the liberal (Democrats) areas are the costs and the big lake area.
And in the North is the even more liberal Canada while the south is socialist Mexico.
So for me it looks definitely like the Reps are living in an enclave.
Wrong?


Also many things that are labeled "divisive issues" - and that mostly comes from the Republicans - are not at all devisive. There is just a loud minority making it so.
The most rediculous example is imho the kneeling down before a sports game. Trump made that sound like it's a declaration of independence from humanity.
I seriously wondered if there will be people blowing themselfs up shouting Allah... you have to stand!!

Not sure of your point in arguing semantics around the word enclave.

I agree that Republicans are masters of defining sane, moderate policies as divisive.  The Democrats need to do a much better job of countering such misinformation.

NaN

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2020, 07:23:35 AM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

sherr

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2020, 07:32:14 AM »
And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing.

Why would you assume McConnell has to either find dirt or be convincing? This is how the entire Republican party wants their politicians to behave. McConnell is just a convenient safe-seat fall guy to take the heat off of everyone else, they'd be doing the exact same things without him.

NaN

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2020, 08:02:25 AM »
Why would you assume McConnell has to either find dirt or be convincing? This is how the entire Republican party wants their politicians to behave. McConnell is just a convenient safe-seat fall guy to take the heat off of everyone else, they'd be doing the exact same things without him.

I disagree. McConnell will go down as one of the most successful political leaders ever. Others could have behaved similarly. But McConnell has led the Republicans with very few hiccups, if any.

LennStar

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2020, 09:53:48 AM »
It is true that Republicans are largely obstructionists with whom reasonable compromise is generally not possible.  But it does not follow that the appropriate response from Democrats is to move as far to the left as possible.  They should focus on accomplishing things that most (or at least a plurality of) Americans want to see accomplished.  Do that without Republican help if necessary, but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves.  That is the way to get re-elected so that they can keep accomplishing good things for the American people.  Focusing on divisive issues and taking the most liberal positions possible is the surest way to lose Congress in the mid-terms.

Correct me if I am wrong. En enclave is a part of a state that is incircled by another state.
We don't meed to take that literally, but the point is the encirclement.
As far as I know the liberal (Democrats) areas are the costs and the big lake area.
And in the North is the even more liberal Canada while the south is socialist Mexico.
So for me it looks definitely like the Reps are living in an enclave.
Wrong?


Also many things that are labeled "divisive issues" - and that mostly comes from the Republicans - are not at all devisive. There is just a loud minority making it so.
The most rediculous example is imho the kneeling down before a sports game. Trump made that sound like it's a declaration of independence from humanity.
I seriously wondered if there will be people blowing themselfs up shouting Allah... you have to stand!!

Not sure of your point in arguing semantics around the word enclave.

I agree that Republicans are masters of defining sane, moderate policies as divisive.  The Democrats need to do a much better job of countering such misinformation.
Call it my philisophical streak or my love for words or whatever.
I am just curious how you got to that word. It can't be geographically, as I have shown. It can't be politically, because afaik that is not true, Dems have never been closed to outsiders. And if you put the meaning of defensive into enclave, it gets even more unlikely, because for Decades now it were the Reps that were in defensive battles - at least if you measure public support.
So why choose this unusual word?

sherr

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2020, 10:03:01 AM »
This is fairly common English usage of "enclave". Definition 2: "any small group or area enclosed within a larger one".

The "liberal" group being enclosed within the larger "Democrats" group for example. Which is itself enclosed inside the larger "Americans" group. Or geographically: liberal cities enclosed inside the larger rural areas.

I didn't see anything unusual about his use of "enclave".

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2020, 02:54:16 PM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

I agree with your first paragraph in part, in that the Democrats didn't have much to show for the short period of time when they had complete control of Congress and the Presidency.  And although I wish the ACA had been a better piece of legislation, I don't agree that it was a political loser.  It represented monumental progress in the battle against our law-of-the-jungle health care system, and it moved the political zeitgeist enough that much of the country does not want to go back to pre-ACA days.  Once the 2010 mid-terms happened, the Democrats were dead in the water for accomplishing legislation, and the same for judicial appointments after the 2014 mid-terms.  At that point they couldn't have retaliated with their own hardball tactics whether they wanted to or not.

If/when the Democrats are back in control, they will need to use some hardball tactics of their own if they expect to get anything done.  The filibuster will have to go.  Which is a shame, because then they will have no defense against bad legislation the next time the Republicans are in control.  But it has to be done.  However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.


LennStar

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2020, 04:17:43 AM »
This is fairly common English usage of "enclave". Definition 2: "any small group or area enclosed within a larger one".

The "liberal" group being enclosed within the larger "Democrats" group for example. Which is itself enclosed inside the larger "Americans" group. Or geographically: liberal cities enclosed inside the larger rural areas.

I didn't see anything unusual about his use of "enclave".
So with "but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves." you meant "things that also play well outside big cities"?

Hm... I am afraid that is not possible. I think in that case it is still not a (primarily) Dems/Reps based difference, but city/rural, who tend to vote that way.
Talking about liberal enclaves would mean you have switched couse and effect. City people vote Dems because they have a policy that is appealing to town dwellers. If they start doing things that appeal to rural people, it would mean towns would not vote for them.

But I guess we can end that discussion here.

Quote
However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.
But here we are again at the successes of the Rep's spin doctoring the politics.
Many Republican voters loved the ACA, because they were dependend on it, but they loathed Obamacare.
It's unbelievably hard to inform people that don't want to be informed and take all "information" they need from Fox News.

sherr

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2020, 08:01:13 AM »
So with "but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves." you meant "things that also play well outside big cities"?

Hm... I am afraid that is not possible. I think in that case it is still not a (primarily) Dems/Reps based difference, but city/rural, who tend to vote that way.
Talking about liberal enclaves would mean you have switched couse and effect. City people vote Dems because they have a policy that is appealing to town dwellers. If they start doing things that appeal to rural people, it would mean towns would not vote for them.

But I guess we can end that discussion here.

The English language is simply not as precise as you are assuming it is. :)
You have to go for understanding the general meaning instead of nit-picking details of word usage. Which words you use adds flavor, adds shades of meaning, but not at the expense of the larger more obvious meaning.

He simply meant that Dems should do things that are popular with most people, instead of only playing to a fraction of their own base.

ctuser1

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2020, 08:56:40 AM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

I agree with your first paragraph in part, in that the Democrats didn't have much to show for the short period of time when they had complete control of Congress and the Presidency.  And although I wish the ACA had been a better piece of legislation, I don't agree that it was a political loser.  It represented monumental progress in the battle against our law-of-the-jungle health care system, and it moved the political zeitgeist enough that much of the country does not want to go back to pre-ACA days.  Once the 2010 mid-terms happened, the Democrats were dead in the water for accomplishing legislation, and the same for judicial appointments after the 2014 mid-terms.  At that point they couldn't have retaliated with their own hardball tactics whether they wanted to or not.

If/when the Democrats are back in control, they will need to use some hardball tactics of their own if they expect to get anything done.  The filibuster will have to go.  Which is a shame, because then they will have no defense against bad legislation the next time the Republicans are in control.  But it has to be done.  However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.

My 2 cents....

1. Democrats should ALWAYS do what is right for most Americans - city and rural areas alike.
2. The above does not, in my opinion, include pandering to any specific group or demographic segment. This means actively working to break the stranglehold that < 30% Americans have over appointing judges to the court(s) who has a penchant for modifying (errrr.. "re-interpreting" using the "originalist" philosophy) the constitution.
3. There are many other right things (e.g. voting rights, removing qualified immunity etc) that are pretty non-controversial, but will be made into controversial issues by the right-wing propaganda outlets.
4. I would prioritize structural issues first, and then prioritize things that benefits the most Americans (e.g. public option, especially for rural areas).

Because of #3, Dems can expect a backlash anyway, whatever they do, even if they extend better healthcare to rural areas via public option. 2022 senate map is very favorable for Dems, so they will likely keep control for 4 years. But expect 2024 senate to flip if the disenfranchisement of the majority (30% of the population controlling 70% of the votes) continue. Hence the importance of structural issues.

tl;dr
Doing the right thing is not correlated with support from the people who are benefitting from that right thing!! Dems should do that anyway!




jrhampt

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2020, 09:24:04 AM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

I agree with your first paragraph in part, in that the Democrats didn't have much to show for the short period of time when they had complete control of Congress and the Presidency.  And although I wish the ACA had been a better piece of legislation, I don't agree that it was a political loser.  It represented monumental progress in the battle against our law-of-the-jungle health care system, and it moved the political zeitgeist enough that much of the country does not want to go back to pre-ACA days.  Once the 2010 mid-terms happened, the Democrats were dead in the water for accomplishing legislation, and the same for judicial appointments after the 2014 mid-terms.  At that point they couldn't have retaliated with their own hardball tactics whether they wanted to or not.

If/when the Democrats are back in control, they will need to use some hardball tactics of their own if they expect to get anything done.  The filibuster will have to go.  Which is a shame, because then they will have no defense against bad legislation the next time the Republicans are in control.  But it has to be done.  However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.

tl;dr
Doing the right thing is not correlated with support from the people who are benefitting from that right thing!! Dems should do that anyway!

^Absolutely.  The job is not to please people; it's to serve the country well.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2020, 05:19:26 PM »
So with "but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves." you meant "things that also play well outside big cities"?

Hm... I am afraid that is not possible. I think in that case it is still not a (primarily) Dems/Reps based difference, but city/rural, who tend to vote that way.
Talking about liberal enclaves would mean you have switched couse and effect. City people vote Dems because they have a policy that is appealing to town dwellers. If they start doing things that appeal to rural people, it would mean towns would not vote for them.

But I guess we can end that discussion here.

The English language is simply not as precise as you are assuming it is. :)
You have to go for understanding the general meaning instead of nit-picking details of word usage. Which words you use adds flavor, adds shades of meaning, but not at the expense of the larger more obvious meaning.

He simply meant that Dems should do things that are popular with most people, instead of only playing to a fraction of their own base.

Thanks for taking over the semantics argument for me. ;)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 04:18:14 AM by Monkey Uncle »

talltexan

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2020, 06:33:24 AM »
My cousin lost her job during the summer of 2019. I learned that my parents have been sending money for her to make COBRA payments each month so that she can continue to have health insurance.

My cousin has been lighting up FB with her admiration of the President, even attending a rally. I'm getting concerned that she hasn't been studying the health insurance thing with enough effort.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2020, 09:48:40 AM »
Um.... covid??? Guys, you're not doing anything or going anywhere until your country comes back from being the worst hotspot in the world. Until then, you're hobbled.

bacchi

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2020, 10:10:11 AM »
Um.... covid??? Guys, you're not doing anything or going anywhere until your country comes back from being the worst hotspot in the world. Until then, you're hobbled.

We're not the worst. At the least, we're in a race to the bottom with India and Peru (and maybe the UK, which hit 26k cases on the 21st).

Covid response was mentioned upthread.

There's not much Biden can do except set the tone. He could push for more federal money for health studies and stay in the WHO. He can get a stimulus bill passed so that non-essential workers don't feel compelled to go to work. He can't close schools or mandate masks or stop outdoor gatherings. That's all up to the states.

RetiredAt63

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2020, 10:16:31 AM »
Um.... covid??? Guys, you're not doing anything or going anywhere until your country comes back from being the worst hotspot in the world. Until then, you're hobbled.

We're not the worst. At the least, we're in a race to the bottom with India and Peru (and maybe the UK, which hit 26k cases on the 21st).

Covid response was mentioned upthread.

There's not much Biden can do except set the tone. He could push for more federal money for health studies and stay in the WHO. He can get a stimulus bill passed so that non-essential workers don't feel compelled to go to work. He can't close schools or mandate masks or stop outdoor gatherings. That's all up to the states.

Our health care is run by the provinces, but the federal government is doing a lot in its areas of responsibility.  Our numbers are going up again but most seem to be related to people ignoring the guidelines. 

The things you mention are important.  A mask-wearing socially distanced White House sets an example.  Supporting WHO and the CDC and publicly supporting the recommendations made by health officials all sound like good useful acts.

bacchi

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2020, 10:37:03 AM »
Um.... covid??? Guys, you're not doing anything or going anywhere until your country comes back from being the worst hotspot in the world. Until then, you're hobbled.

We're not the worst. At the least, we're in a race to the bottom with India and Peru (and maybe the UK, which hit 26k cases on the 21st).

Covid response was mentioned upthread.

There's not much Biden can do except set the tone. He could push for more federal money for health studies and stay in the WHO. He can get a stimulus bill passed so that non-essential workers don't feel compelled to go to work. He can't close schools or mandate masks or stop outdoor gatherings. That's all up to the states.

Our health care is run by the provinces, but the federal government is doing a lot in its areas of responsibility.  Our numbers are going up again but most seem to be related to people ignoring the guidelines. 

The things you mention are important.  A mask-wearing socially distanced White House sets an example.  Supporting WHO and the CDC and publicly supporting the recommendations made by health officials all sound like good useful acts.

Right and I'm 100% confident that a Biden White House will set a good mask/distancing example and will support the scientists at the CDC and FDA. There's no need to hope for Biden doing those things because that's one of the reasons to support him.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2020, 09:44:17 PM »
Um.... covid??? Guys, you're not doing anything or going anywhere until your country comes back from being the worst hotspot in the world. Until then, you're hobbled.

We're not the worst. At the least, we're in a race to the bottom with India and Peru (and maybe the UK, which hit 26k cases on the 21st).

Covid response was mentioned upthread.

There's not much Biden can do except set the tone. He could push for more federal money for health studies and stay in the WHO. He can get a stimulus bill passed so that non-essential workers don't feel compelled to go to work. He can't close schools or mandate masks or stop outdoor gatherings. That's all up to the states.

No... you're the worst. India has a billion people, and half the deaths you guys have had. Brazil is the next shittest country, not Peru, and the UK is nowhere near. Considering infected as a percentage of population, you and Brazil are running about neck and neck. They're a third world country! All things considered, the USA is BY FAR the worst outbreak in on the planet, and doing absolutely nothing useful to stop it. You know that wall? Yeah, don't worry about building that. You don't need to worry about closing the borders, either. No one's coming to the United States of Plague. Hell, we're not even accepting your mail, let alone your people.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2020, 04:25:15 AM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

I agree with your first paragraph in part, in that the Democrats didn't have much to show for the short period of time when they had complete control of Congress and the Presidency.  And although I wish the ACA had been a better piece of legislation, I don't agree that it was a political loser.  It represented monumental progress in the battle against our law-of-the-jungle health care system, and it moved the political zeitgeist enough that much of the country does not want to go back to pre-ACA days.  Once the 2010 mid-terms happened, the Democrats were dead in the water for accomplishing legislation, and the same for judicial appointments after the 2014 mid-terms.  At that point they couldn't have retaliated with their own hardball tactics whether they wanted to or not.

If/when the Democrats are back in control, they will need to use some hardball tactics of their own if they expect to get anything done.  The filibuster will have to go.  Which is a shame, because then they will have no defense against bad legislation the next time the Republicans are in control.  But it has to be done.  However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.

tl;dr
Doing the right thing is not correlated with support from the people who are benefitting from that right thing!! Dems should do that anyway!

^Absolutely.  The job is not to please people; it's to serve the country well.

That paternalistic attitude is what allows Republicans to claim that Democrats are a bunch of out-of-touch nanny-state elites.  Democrats need to make a real effort to convince people of the merits of their policies.  They're never going to convince the 35% of voters who are die-hard Trumpers, but they should be able to persuade independents and centrist Democrats.  Bring those folks along, and you're golden.  Make them feel like you're riding roughshod over them, and you're on the fast track to the minority.

ctuser1

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2020, 07:12:53 AM »
That paternalistic attitude is what allows Republicans to claim that Democrats are a bunch of out-of-touch nanny-state elites.  Democrats need to make a real effort to convince people of the merits of their policies.  They're never going to convince the 35% of voters who are die-hard Trumpers, but they should be able to persuade independents and centrist Democrats.  Bring those folks along, and you're golden.  Make them feel like you're riding roughshod over them, and you're on the fast track to the minority.

The ACA debates happened just 11-12 years ago. Democrat's convinced ALL centrist democrats and compromised heavily (e.g. no public option). When polled on issues, majority of the population supported individual provisions on ACA.

That sounds to me like what you are suggesting.

Unfortunately there is a Republican spin machine that then convinced everyone that "Obamacare" is evil. I am not sure Democrats can control that spin machine. (Perhaps they can try bringing back the fairness doctrine and drive Sinclair and Fox out of business!! Sounds like too much work for not too much gain - because social media silo's will still exist!).

While that republican spin machine exists, Dems can do everything right (like they did in the case of Obamacare), and a minority of the population (that happens to control a majority of the senate and sometimes electoral college) will still be convinced they are "evil", "paternalistic" etc. etc.

Should the opinions of this minority hold Dems back from extending healthcare, for example, to millions of people for fear of political cost?

I consider Obama to be one of the very best Presidents for setting the precedent - where he decided to forge ahead and did the right thing for the American people fully knowing he will pay the political cost!!

How would you suggest he should have handled it? Let poor American's stay uninsured so that a few Democratic seats can be protected in the next election??

I don't think the normal norms apply when one side of the discussion no longer feels obligated to even pretend good faith.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2020, 09:00:31 AM »
That paternalistic attitude is what allows Republicans to claim that Democrats are a bunch of out-of-touch nanny-state elites.  Democrats need to make a real effort to convince people of the merits of their policies.  They're never going to convince the 35% of voters who are die-hard Trumpers, but they should be able to persuade independents and centrist Democrats.  Bring those folks along, and you're golden.  Make them feel like you're riding roughshod over them, and you're on the fast track to the minority.

The ACA debates happened just 11-12 years ago. Democrat's convinced ALL centrist democrats and compromised heavily (e.g. no public option). When polled on issues, majority of the population supported individual provisions on ACA.

That sounds to me like what you are suggesting.

Unfortunately there is a Republican spin machine that then convinced everyone that "Obamacare" is evil. I am not sure Democrats can control that spin machine. (Perhaps they can try bringing back the fairness doctrine and drive Sinclair and Fox out of business!! Sounds like too much work for not too much gain - because social media silo's will still exist!).

While that republican spin machine exists, Dems can do everything right (like they did in the case of Obamacare), and a minority of the population (that happens to control a majority of the senate and sometimes electoral college) will still be convinced they are "evil", "paternalistic" etc. etc.

Should the opinions of this minority hold Dems back from extending healthcare, for example, to millions of people for fear of political cost?

I consider Obama to be one of the very best Presidents for setting the precedent - where he decided to forge ahead and did the right thing for the American people fully knowing he will pay the political cost!!

How would you suggest he should have handled it? Let poor American's stay uninsured so that a few Democratic seats can be protected in the next election??

I don't think the normal norms apply when one side of the discussion no longer feels obligated to even pretend good faith.

I don't know that I have all the answers, but somehow Democrats have to counter the Republican spin machine.  It seems like over and over they allow themselves to be defined by the Republicans without ever fighting back effectively.  John Kerry got swift-boated, and it seemed like he never really countered that message.  The ACA was pilloried, and no one was out there hammering home what was actually in the ACA.  Or if they were, they weren't doing it effectively.  The Republicans live in constant campaign mode; maybe Democrats need to do the same.  Issue ads all the time.  Not just during election years.  The hard-core Republican base will always spin everything Democrats do as evil.  The Democrats need to be able to drown out that message with the facts.

ctuser1

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2020, 09:19:26 AM »
I don't know that I have all the answers, but somehow Democrats have to counter the Republican spin machine.  It seems like over and over they allow themselves to be defined by the Republicans without ever fighting back effectively.  John Kerry got swift-boated, and it seemed like he never really countered that message.  The ACA was pilloried, and no one was out there hammering home what was actually in the ACA.  Or if they were, they weren't doing it effectively.  The Republicans live in constant campaign mode; maybe Democrats need to do the same.  Issue ads all the time.  Not just during election years.  The hard-core Republican base will always spin everything Democrats do as evil.  The Democrats need to be able to drown out that message with the facts.

Republicans built their propaganda machine over 50+ years. Most people don't realize the extent and depth of that network that is constantly brainwashing Americans everywhere.

I don't think a "democrat propaganda machine" that can counter it will be ready in a decade or two, and even if it could be made ready I am not sure it would be desirable. Propaganda machines drive rage and build negative partisanship driven "ideological" movements (is "negative partisanship" and ideology?) like you see on the right today. A propaganda driven ideological movement on the left could be even more dangerous than what you see on the right today!!

I don't believe trying to do such a deal with the devil is desirable or necessary. Whatever Democrats do to help Americans, it will be spun as "evil" by Fox and Sinclair (which is just a tiny little part of the right wing propaganda machine) and others. I believe it is best for the Dems to do whatever is best for the country whenever they have the best chance to do so (2020, or 22 - when senate map is even more favorable than 2020). Let the right-wing spin machine spin it. Ultimately, in 10-15 years reality will - hopefully - bring the vocal, brainwashed minority around, just like it happened for Obamacare!! After an iteration or two of that, hopefully the right-wing propaganda apparatus will lose complete credibility!!

The only alternative to the above is to do nothing, or to build an equally scary and harmful leftwing propaganda apparatus! I doubt that would be good for anybody!

I don't like this situation any more than you do! I am just blurting out what I think is the only practical pathway forward!!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 09:29:48 AM by ctuser1 »

OtherJen

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2020, 11:04:42 AM »
I don't know that I have all the answers, but somehow Democrats have to counter the Republican spin machine.  It seems like over and over they allow themselves to be defined by the Republicans without ever fighting back effectively.  John Kerry got swift-boated, and it seemed like he never really countered that message.  The ACA was pilloried, and no one was out there hammering home what was actually in the ACA.  Or if they were, they weren't doing it effectively.  The Republicans live in constant campaign mode; maybe Democrats need to do the same.  Issue ads all the time.  Not just during election years.  The hard-core Republican base will always spin everything Democrats do as evil.  The Democrats need to be able to drown out that message with the facts.

Republicans built their propaganda machine over 50+ years. Most people don't realize the extent and depth of that network that is constantly brainwashing Americans everywhere.

Thank you! It's been going for my entire life, and I'm in my 40s. The GOP very strongly and effectively branded itself as the "Moral Majority" and "family values" party back in the 1980s, when they got into bed with the white Evangelicals. They've been able to ram through all sorts of bullshit by falling back on that reputation.

ctuser1

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2020, 04:28:47 PM »
I don't know that I have all the answers, but somehow Democrats have to counter the Republican spin machine.  It seems like over and over they allow themselves to be defined by the Republicans without ever fighting back effectively.  John Kerry got swift-boated, and it seemed like he never really countered that message.  The ACA was pilloried, and no one was out there hammering home what was actually in the ACA.  Or if they were, they weren't doing it effectively.  The Republicans live in constant campaign mode; maybe Democrats need to do the same.  Issue ads all the time.  Not just during election years.  The hard-core Republican base will always spin everything Democrats do as evil.  The Democrats need to be able to drown out that message with the facts.

Republicans built their propaganda machine over 50+ years. Most people don't realize the extent and depth of that network that is constantly brainwashing Americans everywhere.

Thank you! It's been going for my entire life, and I'm in my 40s. The GOP very strongly and effectively branded itself as the "Moral Majority" and "family values" party back in the 1980s, when they got into bed with the white Evangelicals. They've been able to ram through all sorts of bullshit by falling back on that reputation.

Yupp, almost everyone in a battleground or red state would probably know someone (maybe a pastor or a politician or someone like that) who has been trained by the "Leadership Institute". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_Institute

So it is no wonder that a coordinated rightwing spin (like what happened for "Obamacare") was so effective. Fox at national level + Sinclair in the local stations + the local favorite talk radio + local pastor trained by the Leadership Institute - any propaganda would be effective when it is coordinated so well at all levels.

It *will* be effective again, in future, in any issue that Dems pick! This is a given!! It is also a given that Dems won't be able to get such propaganda presence at all levels anytime soon, especially not the "boots on the ground" one.

I don't think such a left-wing system will be necessary. Another one or two iterations of the Obamacare debacle for this apparatus and the next generation will likely (hopefully) lose faith in it. I'm also very skeptical of any such massive multi-level ideological apparatus that specializes in bad faith talking points - left or right!

BicycleB

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2020, 06:01:46 PM »
Um.... covid??? Guys, you're not doing anything or going anywhere until your country comes back from being the worst hotspot in the world. Until then, you're hobbled.

We're not the worst. At the least, we're in a race to the bottom with India and Peru (and maybe the UK, which hit 26k cases on the 21st).

Covid response was mentioned upthread.

There's not much Biden can do except set the tone. He could push for more federal money for health studies and stay in the WHO. He can get a stimulus bill passed so that non-essential workers don't feel compelled to go to work. He can't close schools or mandate masks or stop outdoor gatherings. That's all up to the states.

No... you're the worst. India has a billion people, and half the deaths you guys have had. Brazil is the next shittest country, not Peru, and the UK is nowhere near. Considering infected as a percentage of population, you and Brazil are running about neck and neck. They're a third world country! All things considered, the USA is BY FAR the worst outbreak in on the planet, and doing absolutely nothing useful to stop it. You know that wall? Yeah, don't worry about building that. You don't need to worry about closing the borders, either. No one's coming to the United States of Plague. Hell, we're not even accepting your mail, let alone your people.

I think COVID should and will be an obvious priority.

Biden can, should and probably will do a lot more than just set the tone. However, in contrast to a situation where the current President set a tone directly against necessary measures such as mask wearing, setting the tone is important. Specific COVID steps should include:

1. Demonstrate key actions that the public should follow, such as wear a mask and, when appropriate, receive a vaccination
2. Depoliticize COVID efforts by designating one key nonpartisan health official to communicate with the public on the topic (likely Dr. Fauci)
3. Confirm publicly and privately that employees in COVID-related agencies will be respected for communicating truthfully
4. Convening top experts including existing agency experts to devise a coherent national plan for COVID
5. Implement the experts' recommendations

Due to the disease's breadth of spread, plus the intense politicization to date, I suspect there will be more US COVID deaths under Biden than Trump. There's too much momentum to stop it quickly now. But in time, these mundane policies will produce far lower infection rates and largely halt the disease from further spreading. They will be a priority from the start.

That's why I voted for him, and I think many others too.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 06:06:51 PM by BicycleB »

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2020, 06:11:35 PM »
I don't know that I have all the answers, but somehow Democrats have to counter the Republican spin machine.  It seems like over and over they allow themselves to be defined by the Republicans without ever fighting back effectively.  John Kerry got swift-boated, and it seemed like he never really countered that message.  The ACA was pilloried, and no one was out there hammering home what was actually in the ACA.  Or if they were, they weren't doing it effectively.  The Republicans live in constant campaign mode; maybe Democrats need to do the same.  Issue ads all the time.  Not just during election years.  The hard-core Republican base will always spin everything Democrats do as evil.  The Democrats need to be able to drown out that message with the facts.

Republicans built their propaganda machine over 50+ years. Most people don't realize the extent and depth of that network that is constantly brainwashing Americans everywhere.

I don't think a "democrat propaganda machine" that can counter it will be ready in a decade or two, and even if it could be made ready I am not sure it would be desirable. Propaganda machines drive rage and build negative partisanship driven "ideological" movements (is "negative partisanship" and ideology?) like you see on the right today. A propaganda driven ideological movement on the left could be even more dangerous than what you see on the right today!!

I don't believe trying to do such a deal with the devil is desirable or necessary. Whatever Democrats do to help Americans, it will be spun as "evil" by Fox and Sinclair (which is just a tiny little part of the right wing propaganda machine) and others. I believe it is best for the Dems to do whatever is best for the country whenever they have the best chance to do so (2020, or 22 - when senate map is even more favorable than 2020). Let the right-wing spin machine spin it. Ultimately, in 10-15 years reality will - hopefully - bring the vocal, brainwashed minority around, just like it happened for Obamacare!! After an iteration or two of that, hopefully the right-wing propaganda apparatus will lose complete credibility!!

The only alternative to the above is to do nothing, or to build an equally scary and harmful leftwing propaganda apparatus! I doubt that would be good for anybody!

I don't like this situation any more than you do! I am just blurting out what I think is the only practical pathway forward!!

I'm not suggesting a left-wing propaganda machine.  More like a truth machine - one that fights back against the Republican propaganda by repetitive truth-telling rather than the repetitive lies told by the right.

The turn-around in public opinion on the ACA is a good example of good policy winning out in the end (maybe, if the Supreme Court doesn't take it away), but look what we had to go through to get there.  Wouldn't it have been better if the public could have been convinced of the ACA's merit from the get-go?

And WTF is up with all the exclamation points?  Did I really get you that worked up?

ctuser1

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #89 on: October 24, 2020, 06:26:17 PM »
And WTF is up with all the exclamation points?  Did I really get you that worked up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclamation_mark
Quote
A sentence ending in an exclamation mark may represent an exclamation or an interjection (such as "Wow!", "Boo!"), or an imperative ("Stop!"), or may indicate astonishment or surprise: "They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!" Exclamation marks are occasionally placed mid-sentence with a function similar to a comma, for dramatic effect, although this usage is obsolete: "On the walk, oh! there was a frightful noise."[13]

I tend to use exclamations in the "astonishment/surprise" sense - like "did you know?" or "can you believe that...?" sense, and not to shout or yell.

I probably need to curb that, because I have been asked about this, and misunderstood before.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 06:29:49 PM by ctuser1 »

bacchi

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #90 on: October 24, 2020, 10:33:45 PM »
Um.... covid??? Guys, you're not doing anything or going anywhere until your country comes back from being the worst hotspot in the world. Until then, you're hobbled.

We're not the worst. At the least, we're in a race to the bottom with India and Peru (and maybe the UK, which hit 26k cases on the 21st).

Covid response was mentioned upthread.

There's not much Biden can do except set the tone. He could push for more federal money for health studies and stay in the WHO. He can get a stimulus bill passed so that non-essential workers don't feel compelled to go to work. He can't close schools or mandate masks or stop outdoor gatherings. That's all up to the states.

No... you're the worst. India has a billion people, and half the deaths you guys have had. Brazil is the next shittest country, not Peru, and the UK is nowhere near. Considering infected as a percentage of population, you and Brazil are running about neck and neck. They're a third world country! All things considered, the USA is BY FAR the worst outbreak in on the planet, and doing absolutely nothing useful to stop it. You know that wall? Yeah, don't worry about building that. You don't need to worry about closing the borders, either. No one's coming to the United States of Plague. Hell, we're not even accepting your mail, let alone your people.

India? C'mon. They don't even trust their own data. Why should we?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/cause-of-death-missing-or-vague-in-six-out-of-10-death-certificates/articleshow/67618893.cms

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A scan of death certificates issued in Karnataka shows six of every 10 documents lack details on the cause, while mentioning only age, name and address of the deceased.

I see Peru as the highest deaths/1M and Brazil as 2nd. The UK just behind the US: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Since you did mention hotspot, the UK has more recent cases per million than the US, which is why I mentioned it above.

Of course, as you pointed out, both the US and UK (and Spain, which also has more recent cases per million than the US) are not in good company, considering our wealth and  better health care systems when compared to Peru and Brazil.

LennStar

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2020, 02:25:59 AM »
I'm not suggesting a left-wing propaganda machine.  More like a truth machine - one that fights back against the Republican propaganda by repetitive truth-telling rather than the repetitive lies told by the right.
But there is already a TV station showing the truth! Fox News! They show everyone all the lies most of the media constantly shovel down stupid people's throats!!

Maybe you have heard the saying "A lie has run three times around the world before thruth has got her boots on?"
You need a conscious and very constant effort to get to the thruth and most don't do that or can't do that, for whatever reason.

It's a problem that is literally millenia old, and "social media" only make it worse.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2020, 04:44:17 AM »
I'm not suggesting a left-wing propaganda machine.  More like a truth machine - one that fights back against the Republican propaganda by repetitive truth-telling rather than the repetitive lies told by the right.
But there is already a TV station showing the truth! Fox News! They show everyone all the lies most of the media constantly shovel down stupid people's throats!!

Maybe you have heard the saying "A lie has run three times around the world before thruth has got her boots on?"
You need a conscious and very constant effort to get to the thruth and most don't do that or can't do that, for whatever reason.

It's a problem that is literally millenia old, and "social media" only make it worse.

The proliferation of all the "fact check" news stories on the web, and also the mainstream media's constant calling out of Trump's lies, give me a glimmer of hope.  Perhaps that has played a small part in Biden's lead in the polls.  But of course the Republican propaganda outlets are now attacking the fact checkers as "biased."  I'm hoping (perhaps in vain) that about 2/3 of Americans can tell who is actually telling the truth.

ctuser1

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2020, 05:50:56 AM »
I'm not suggesting a left-wing propaganda machine.  More like a truth machine - one that fights back against the Republican propaganda by repetitive truth-telling rather than the repetitive lies told by the right.
But there is already a TV station showing the truth! Fox News! They show everyone all the lies most of the media constantly shovel down stupid people's throats!!

Maybe you have heard the saying "A lie has run three times around the world before thruth has got her boots on?"
You need a conscious and very constant effort to get to the thruth and most don't do that or can't do that, for whatever reason.

It's a problem that is literally millenia old, and "social media" only make it worse.

The proliferation of all the "fact check" news stories on the web, and also the mainstream media's constant calling out of Trump's lies, give me a glimmer of hope.  Perhaps that has played a small part in Biden's lead in the polls.  But of course the Republican propaganda outlets are now attacking the fact checkers as "biased."  I'm hoping (perhaps in vain) that about 2/3 of Americans can tell who is actually telling the truth.

I used to think I am an optimist. You, sir, beat me by miles!

I sincerely wish and hope that 2/3rd of the Americans can beat back the sustained big-money propaganda aimed at them.

Even so, I believe it is prudent to expect another round or two of Obamacare-like situations (or worse) while the right wing propaganda machine makes it's last stand against demographic headwinds.

Abe

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2020, 09:10:59 PM »
How many milliseconds into January 22nd will the Republicans be concerned about the debt again? 1?

I pose this because Biden will need a full department to deal with hypocritical hand-wringing. I guess every president does, but I feel like this one will be busier than usual.

talltexan

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2020, 06:52:56 AM »
It'll start in November. Conservatives will say Trump lost because he wasn't conservative enough and allowed himself to get rolled on things like that spending bill in 2018.

JGS1980

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2020, 08:37:26 AM »
It'll start in November. Conservatives will say Trump lost because he wasn't conservative enough and allowed himself to get rolled on things like that spending bill in 2018.

And yet they will balk at the idea of repealing the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) passed in December 2017. Hypocrites to the last breath.

Biden floated the idea of an Alternative Minimum Tax for Corporations to the tune of 15%. Why? Because he sees Amazon, GE, Apple and the like paying minimal Federal Tax Rates by using every single loophole in the book. I thing this is a grand idea, especially as CORPS have been paying less and less taxes as a percentage of federal tax income for the last 70 years. Meanwhile, they lobby very aggressively to both parties (their $$$ is free speech, remember!) for less regulation and more special loopholes that their army of accountants/lawyers can exploit.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-sources-revenue-federal-government  -Look at Figure 3 and compare to your own payroll taxes and individual taxes




Monkey Uncle

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2021, 04:47:07 AM »
Well, it appears that this thread wasn't just mental masturbation after all.  But it looks like the filibuster will stand, as Joe Manchin has already said that he will not support ending it.  So, that takes any sweeping legislation off the table, and limits Biden to acting through appointments, regulations, and maybe things that can be squeezed into budget reconciliation bills.  Perhaps that might produce a fix for the ACA, and maybe there is room for some mild bipartisan action on climate change.  But the bolder ideas like DC/Puerto Rico statewide are just wild fantasies at this point.

ctuser1

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2021, 05:28:35 AM »
Well, it appears that this thread wasn't just mental masturbation after all.  But it looks like the filibuster will stand, as Joe Manchin has already said that he will not support ending it.  So, that takes any sweeping legislation off the table, and limits Biden to acting through appointments, regulations, and maybe things that can be squeezed into budget reconciliation bills.  Perhaps that might produce a fix for the ACA, and maybe there is room for some mild bipartisan action on climate change.  But the bolder ideas like DC/Puerto Rico statewide are just wild fantasies at this point.

+ Infrastructure bill.

Let's hope 2022 produces another couple of seats that produce political cover for Joe Manchin/Kyrsten Synema/Mark Kelly. If Dems can win back at least 2 seats (likely) in 2022, at least one of them will need to take the fall for the team (which I am hopeful one of them will).

Looking at their voting records and scores, I am hopeful they will find some way to make things work:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2019/party-senate-democrat/ideology

They are scored 0.69 for Krysten Sinema, to 0.59 for Manchin on a scale where most republicans are close to 1 and most liberal democrats are  0.00. Except for filibuster (necessary to remove to do most useful things), having this much conservative check on liberal tendencies is actually good! That produces successful compromises like Obamacare.


WhiteTrashCash

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Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2021, 05:29:27 AM »
Well, it appears that this thread wasn't just mental masturbation after all.  But it looks like the filibuster will stand, as Joe Manchin has already said that he will not support ending it.  So, that takes any sweeping legislation off the table, and limits Biden to acting through appointments, regulations, and maybe things that can be squeezed into budget reconciliation bills.  Perhaps that might produce a fix for the ACA, and maybe there is room for some mild bipartisan action on climate change.  But the bolder ideas like DC/Puerto Rico statewide are just wild fantasies at this point.

Joe Manchin will get on board with the Democratic Party’s agenda if there is something in it for him, which is how politics generally works. Look for pork added to bills that aids West Virginia.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!