Author Topic: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?  (Read 8327 times)

Travis

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2020, 12:34:30 AM »
Kyle, I appreciate the response. Follow up questions:

I'm still not sold on the moderation part. Also, how is ranking the candidates is different from the person with the most votes winning?  Maybe it's some simple Algebra that is escaping me. In my head it seems like your winner is going to have a plurality rather than a majority which would cause a lot of anger and accusations of not really having a winner.

Regarding moderation, I agree with this sentiment:

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You can inspire them by suggesting everything stay the same, or suggesting changes, and this will encourage parties to be strongly conservative or strongly progressive - moderation isn't very inspirational. As well, being inspirational is tricky, it's easy to look hypocritical, have holes poked in your arguments and so on. But making them angry? That's easy! And if you get criticised, that just makes your supporters MORE angry, and hell maybe it'll bring some of the undecideds over to your side, too! "Well I don't think much of this guy, but if that guy hates him, he can't be all bad." And the easiest way to make people angry is find people who are already angry, and make them more angry! Poor people are great for this, you can say "those rich bastards are making you poor" and drag along some progressive poor people, or "those foreign bastards are making you poor" and drag along some conservative poor people.

A voluntary voting system thus encourages political polarisation.

With one caveat: I don't believe this has anything to do with voting, but rather the American two-party Primary system. Each party gets to hold preelection votes to screen for which candidate will represent its party in the general election.  This causes a feedback loop where the more extreme you are in your party's platform, the more likely it appears you'll fight for your party's interests if elected.  When you get to the general election, everyone has to choose between Extremist A and Extremist B. The winner is the one who convinces the undecided middle that they weren't actually an extremist to begin with and for some reason we forget the speeches they made barely six months previously. As long as our election process includes being stuck voting for the lesser of who gives a shit, we're not moving to elect actual political moderates.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2020, 03:34:28 AM »
how is ranking the candidates is different from the person with the most votes winning?
Ah, I didn't explain that part. Let's imagine it this way. You have 3 candidates: Anna, Bob and Charlie. People just tick whichever one they want, and we get,

- Anna 45%
- Bob 40%
- Charlie 15%

In a first-past-the-post system, Anna wins. Maybe Bob could win next time. Everyone can safely ignore Charlie, he's unlikely to go from 15 to 40+% in one election cycle.

Now let's suppose we'd like to see a clear winner with over 50%. We could say (like many Mayoral and Presidential election systems), that we do rounds of voting, in each round we toss out whoever got the least votes, and have another go, and repeat the process until someone cracks past 50%. Now even though Charlie's never going to get in, his endorsement of Anna or Bob may swing things either way for them. Of course, Anna and Bob's previous voters have the chance to change their minds in the second round, but let's assume they stay the same. Charlie says, "You should vote for Bob." Maybe 3/4 of Charlie's supporters agree with him, and it becomes,

- Anna 45% core + 4% from Charlie's supporters = 49% total
- Bob 40% core + 11% from Charlie's supporters = 51% total.

And in this way, Bob who was coming second in the first round of voting now wins in the second round of voting.

Preferential voting works in the same way as rounds of voting, except you do it in one go, so that in effect only Charlie's voters get a second vote. "Okay, if you can't have Anna or Bob, who do you want?" We speak of the "primary" vote parties get (how many people put "1" next to that party's candidate?) but the secondary, tertiary etc votes matter, too. The electoral commission goes through and counts up all the 1s - if nobody got 50%+1 of the 1s, they find whichever candidate got the least, and go, "okay, Charlie's supporters put him 1st, who did they put 2nd?" so the 2s of Charlie's supporters are assigned to Anna and Bob accordingly.

This moderates the political landscape because obviously there are a whole swag of minor parties who in the normal course of events would never get enough votes in any one place to get in - now they're still relevant, because other parties will do deals with them. "Look, we'll support policy X of yours, a policy we'd never normally bother with, provided you advise your voters to direct their preferences to us." So relatively obscure parties can still have some influence.

If you run your party saying, "We will make no deals!" then nobody directs their preferences to you. If you can score 50+% of the primary vote in every election, you can do that. In practice few parties are that popular, even winners manage 35-40% nationally. So they have to make preference deals with other parties, and accommodate some of their policies. This is how we ended up with refugees being locked out of the country - One Nation (very authoritarian right) made a deal with the LNP (moderate authoritarian right) - and also with same sex marriage - Greens (very libertarian left) made a deal with the ALP (authoritarian right, but more centrist than LNP) and the lefty side of the LNP to get it through.

The moderation is really a broadening of the political pool, so to speak. It's being inclusive.

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I don't believe this has anything to do with voting, but rather the American two-party Primary system. Each party gets to hold preelection votes to screen for which candidate will represent its party in the general election.  This causes a feedback loop where the more extreme you are in your party's platform, the more likely it appears you'll fight for your party's interests if elected.
I can see that, but I would also suggest there are two other factors here: briefly, basically, 2-party systems are largely inevitable in most systems, and your particular system encourages having only 2 parties. In fine:

Firstly, because you need a majority in your legislature to get things done, most democratic countries will eventually settle down to 2-4 major parties. If you had 200 independents you'd never get anything done, so the independents naturally group themselves into parties where they have a strong overlap of views. 10 parties would also not get anything done. 1 party, why do we even have democracy? and that one party, simply because of human nature and petty gossipping and backstabbing and clique-forming will soon split into a few factions which will coalesce into new parties.

If you look at the political compass, in practice most of the population of a particular country will fall largely in one of the four quadrants, so 80% of the parties and their supporters can be in there, like in Australia - the parties outside the top right got about 10% of the vote. so you just don't need dozens of parties to cover the spectrum of opinion present in a particular country. "We are the Free Trade Party," "Oh yeah? Well we are the Free Trade Except For Hoodgiflops Party". Two parties with factions will do that well enough. You're not really going to have a country where there are viable parties in all four quadrants; one quadrant will be the majority, and the other three considered whackos who get 5-15% of the vote except in areas with perfect demographics for them (I know, because I vote for the whackos).

So I think having 2-4 major parties is inevitable in any democratic system. If you really want diversity then you abandon having local representatives, and just have a proportional party vote like Israel, where if the Anna Party get 45% of the vote, they get 45 of the 100 seats of parliament. Depending how you set the thresholds (eg 5% minimum) you can get a stack of parties then. This can lead to some odd coalitions, though, like an atheist progressive socialist and a conservative religious party hooking up together. But if you've local representatives, it's going to turn into 2-4 major parties pretty quickly.

Secondly, as I alluded to in the first point, the voting system can also influence how many parties you end up with.

"First past the post, local district representative" encourages fewer parties, simply because people get tired of all that running around being a candidate just to be one person on a ballot of party of 128 people and get 3.7% of the vote. Much easier if those 128 people split into 2-4 groups and choose one person each to put forward, less hassle and better chance of success.

"Party vote, represents party in entire country" encourages lots of parties. "So long as we score 5% of the vote nationally we can get some seats... come on, how hard can it be?" If you had a party vote in the US (ie, you go in and just tick which party you want to rule, then their seats in Congress are given out in proportion), then you'd quickly see the Reps and Dems split. You'd have a separate Tea Party, a separate Democratic Socialist Party, and so on - the Rep/Dem cores would be down to 50-60% of the total, probably. And the Libertarians or Greens or someone would have a few seats, too.

And then we come back again to what I said before, how voluntary voting encourages that anger approach to politics, which is polarising - and there are only two poles in a polarised system. Our system gets angry voters, too. There's always angry voters - and that's what we have the whacko parties for, the ones outside whichever is the popular quadrant. The question is, does the system encourage or discourage anger?

Now that I think on it, having a presidential republic with a strong executive also encourages that polarisation, since it's just one position - it becomes "winner takes all!" Devolve some powers away from the President and to Congress and you might get some extra parties pop up. Remember: in a parliamentary democracy, the head of government (the Prime Minister) can be removed at any time by the loss of a majority in parliament, or by the loss of support of their own party.


That's why in Australia we haven't had a Prime Minister go through their whole term in parliament as Prime Minister since... 2007. As for moderating the politics... the party of small government has here pushed through $350 billion of stimulus involving doubling the unemployment benefit to $1,100 a fortnight and paying $1,500 a fortnight to every worker made unemployed by the lockdown and effectively nationalised the private hospitals and... the party of small government. These may or may not be good policies, but they are surprising. It's a bit easier for things like this to happen in a less-polarised system.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 03:37:43 AM by Kyle Schuant »

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2020, 04:45:11 AM »
Compulsory voting.

A plan for compulsory voting is really just a plan to fine me or put me in jail. I refuse to vote. This is for pragmatic reasons as well as moral reasons. I'm slowly being persuaded of the religious imperative as well.   

I have zero desire to impose my ideas on other people by force simply because their favored faction (if they have one) was unable to wring one more vote out than my faction.  Might does not make right.       
So, instead of voting for a faction that imposes their views on others, you are not voting so that a different faction that imposes their view on others might get it?

Or in the old trolley problem lingua: You decide to not push the lever between killing person A and killing person B. But by that you still decide that someone dies, you just have less control over it.
I see no moral improvement in that.

Putting that aside, having fewer votes means a worse outcome for everyone. The less votes a politician has to "buy" through public policies, the less public policies that benefit all are enacted.
And if the vote count gets small enough, you get no public policies at all, only corruption (FIFA or the Olympic Commitee are well known examples for small voter base institutions).
Which I count as a negative moral result for not voting.

btw. that is why a winner-takes-all system is the worst one.

Travis

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2020, 06:19:14 AM »
Quote
okay, Charlie's supporters put him 1st, who did they put 2nd?" so the 2s of Charlie's supporters are assigned to Anna and Bob accordingly.

That sounds almost diabolical.  I like it.  Pollsters and statisticians must have fun figuring this out in your political landscape.  In our firmly entrenched two-party system, any vote for a third party candidate is decried by somebody as a tacit vote for the opposition if that third party is similar to them (voting Green Party rather than Democratic).  The lesser candidate's votes automatically shifting to their second pick would give that minority party considerable clout as a solid group of swing voters.  I don't see how mandatory voting necessarily fits in with this, but I could see this dramatically increasing voluntary participation.

It's been a while since I studied parliamentary politics, but with these proportionally-allocated votes and coalitions of parties, how do you get anything done?  A dictatorship is the easiest way for decisions to be made, and mob rule the most difficult. How does it work in the middle when there are six voting blocs and your cabinet/senior leadership might not get along?  I suppose it forces you to work together, but it doesn't always work out that way.  In the US it's a headscratcher when we read how your "government" just simply collapses and all the ministers have to resign and start over. 

Kyle Schuant

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2020, 09:16:36 AM »
Putting that aside, having fewer votes means a worse outcome for everyone. The less votes a politician has to "buy" through public policies, the less public policies that benefit all are enacted.
I see you have been reading The Dictator's Handbook. I recommend it to all who'd like a better understanding of the process of governance, whether civilian or commercial.


That sounds almost diabolical.  I like it.  Pollsters and statisticians must have fun figuring this out in your political landscape.
It's usually not too hard, because you know which way the preferences will go - you poll people according to their primary voting intentions, then you look at each party's "how to vote" card (each party recommends to its voters how to do the 1-X ranking). The Labor Party is the party of unions and of the lefty middle class. The Liberal Party is the party of business and the righty middle class. The National Party in coalition with the latter is the party of farmers and miners. Historically each will get 30-40% of the primary vote.

The other significant ones are the Greens, who are the lefty middle class who did a humanities degree, plus some doctors, social workers and so on - they get ~10% of the primary vote, but just about 100% direct their second preferences to Labor.

Then there's One Nation, Katter's Australia Party, and a bunch of more-or-less right-wing independents, who direct most of their secondary votes to the Liberal-National Coalition, however the extreme right vote is much, much more fractured among multiple parties at the moment - One Nation, for example, has over the years elected 20 or so members to federal and various state parliaments, and only one has achieved a second term - they've been disallowed by the High Court (some bankrupts and dual citizens) or argued with the head of the party and left the party, or simply not been re-elected.

The unified extreme left of the Greens means the Greens have a solid vote which takes away from the Labor vote - but again, the preferences always go to Labor. The fractured extreme right of One Nation, etc, means a whole swag of little parties and independents who get 1-2% of the vote each - leaving the Liberal-National coalition with a more solid base primary than Labor. So usually the Lib-Nats have got 40% on their own, and Labor closer to 30%. But again, the preferences come in. Once you do that, the result is usually pretty close to 50-50 between the two major parties.

Quote
In our firmly entrenched two-party system, any vote for a third party candidate is decried by somebody as a tacit vote for the opposition if that third party is similar to them (voting Green Party rather than Democratic).
Yes we're given the same argument here. The other fun one is that when (as usually happens) one party wins a majority in the House while at the same time not winning a majority in the Senate (the Senate balance of power is usually strongly held by those minor parties), they loudly proclaim they have A Mandate, and the Senate must simply rubber-stamp whatever they say. This was particularly amusing when the last election had the Lib-Nats get 77 seats out of 151 in the House... have to give up 1 to be the Speaker (who only votes on ties) and thus had a majority of... 1. "It's a mandate!" Yeah, okay. You're one sex scandal or heart attack away from constant gridlock, and two away from a change of government, I don't think so, mate.

Quote
It's been a while since I studied parliamentary politics, but with these proportionally-allocated votes and coalitions of parties, how do you get anything done?
The real problem for parties isn't dealing with the other parties, it's dealing with themselves.

There's this thing Americans are not very familiar with. It's called "compromise." I get a bit of what I want, you get a bit of what you want, neither of us gets most of what we want. But it's better than nothing. Part of having a polarised system is that you lock in the idea of never compromising. Both major parties tried that for a bit, nobody liked it.

We had a guy called Tony Abbott who was leader of the then Opposition (the party not in government) and who said, "the Opposition's job is to oppose," and he just reflexively opposed whatever the government wanted. Abbott was sometimes known as the Mad Monk as he'd spent time in the seminary and was fond of boxing, and his debating technique was similar; Abbott was a classic authoritarian right.

Eventually Abbott scraped in as Prime Minister, but didn't finish his term as he was rolled by Malcolm Turnbull from his own party; Turnbull really should have been in the Labor Party with his views. Abbott spent the rest of that term of parliament on the backbenches undermining Turnbull, who managed to scrape through a victory in the next election - while Abbott himself lost his seat to... a greenie lefty independent. Ahem. He retired to write his memoirs about How Everyone Else Was Treacherous, Wrong and Stupid.

Turnbull was later opposed by the very authoritarian right (former Queensland police officer) Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton, who had convinced himself he could lead the party better. Turnbull cracked the shits and called a spill of all party positions, said he wouldn't stand for leader of the party, and his Foreign Minister Julie Bishop put her hand up for it, too. Bishop was a moderate authoritarian right politically, had been loyal deputy to Turnbull and to Abbott before him, and was intelligent and capable. Dutton and Bishop went into the party room to decide who should be leader, and emerged a few hours later with the new leader...

Scott Morrison. He's a born again Christian of the Hillsong crew (in a country where you just don't discuss religion) and affects the "daggy dad" demeanour. Turnbull greatly offended the party by spitting the dummy and resigning his seat, rather than waiting till the end of the term of parliament, before they even had the chance to find a proper successor. Turnbull then retired to write his memoirs about How Everyone Else Was Treacherous, Wrong and Stupid.

Julie Bishop waited till the end of the parliamentary term, then retired to write her memoirs about How Everyone Else Was Treacherous, Wrong and Stupid.

There was elected in Turnbull's seat a lefty lesbian doctor, and the government lost its majority (by one seat) and had to govern in minority. ScoMo managed to make it to the next election. Everyone expected him to lose, but he gained a couple of seats, taking us to the landslide mandate of 77 seats out of 151 in the House. Will ScoMo make it to the end of his term? Probably not. We had massive bushfires back at the start of the year, and ScoMo went on holiday in Hawaii, the state Premiers took things over.

Now with the virus he's tried to assert a leadership role, forming a National Cabinet (him and the state/territory leaders, easier with 6 states and 2 territories than 50 and 2) meeting weekly. He's obviously feeling very Wartime Prime Minister Statesman Who Will Be Remembered For Generations, but really he has two main roles: ensuring the commonwealth parliament chucks hundreds of billions of dollars at the economy to keep it going (which isn't working great since the money doesn't arrive till May, and anyway we're not allowed out to spend the money), and each day calling a press conference where he contradicts the measures he ordered yesterday and whatever the State Premiers have said. So at some point his own party will roll him.

God knows who'll replace him, it's all very musical chairs. Maybe Dutton? He's still Minister for Home Affairs.

Of course this all happened before with the Labor party in government some years back, with Rudd wanting a carbon tax and thus getting rolled by Gillard who was against the carbon tax but then had to bring it the carbon tax in to be able to govern with the help of the Greens and who was then rolled by Rudd who went on to lose to Abbott who abolished the carbon tax. But that's another story, for now we'll just say that both Rudd and Gillard have retired to write their memoirs about How Everyone Else Was Treacherous, Wrong and Stupid.

Anyway, they compromise. The real problem for parties isn't dealing with the other parties, it's dealing with themselves. The infighting is insane. It's not only the Democrats who organise circular firing squads.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 09:20:15 AM by Kyle Schuant »

Milkshake

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2020, 10:30:11 AM »
In regards to the comments about compulsory voting, I would think making voting day a national holiday would drastically improve voter turnout without firing up the free speech crowd. Also, ranked voting would be a great way of at least making a dent in the 2 party system.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2020, 10:32:33 AM »

I recommend it to all who'd like a better understanding of the process of governance, whether civilian or commercial.



Kyle S., your comprehensive knowledge of Australian politics is as impressive as your political insight into politics in general.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 10:37:48 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

Fireball

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2020, 02:03:28 PM »
In regards to the comments about compulsory voting, I would think making voting day a national holiday would drastically improve voter turnout without firing up the free speech crowd. Also, ranked voting would be a great way of at least making a dent in the 2 party system.

Voting day being a national holiday is a non-starter for 40% of the population. More voting = less Republicans in power.  They have no desire to see that coming to fruition.  It will have to happen one state at a time like what just took place in VA, where Dems replaced the state holiday celebrating two Confederate generals with a statewide voting holiday. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2020, 02:57:45 PM »
In regards to the comments about compulsory voting, I would think making voting day a national holiday would drastically improve voter turnout without firing up the free speech crowd. Also, ranked voting would be a great way of at least making a dent in the 2 party system.

Voting day being a national holiday is a non-starter for 40% of the population. More voting = less Republicans in power.  They have no desire to see that coming to fruition.  It will have to happen one state at a time like what just took place in VA, where Dems replaced the state holiday celebrating two Confederate generals with a statewide voting holiday.

Canada doesn't have a holiday for voting, but employers have to provide 4 consecutive hours free when polls are open.

Kyle's explanation of Australian politics was a hoot.  Canada's is equally weird, in it's own way.  Here we have the Conservatives getting more right wing by the moment, with their leader who has already stepped down still acting as leader of the opposition and being an obstructive idiot.  He seems to have forgotten that the opposition is "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition", which means you are not supposed to oppose just for the sake of opposing.  Then there are the middle of the road Liberals.  Then to their left is the NDP.  Then there is the Bloc Quebecois, who are the Quebec separatist party in the Federal Government.  Yes I know that seems like an oxymoron. This is Canada, we talk things to death instead of having a civil war.  Then there are the Greens, who are obviously our environmental party, and who are way more fiscally conservative (and way more socially liberal) than the Conservatives.  Right now the Liberals have a minority government because the BQ came back from almost oblivion and took a bunch of Quebec seats away from both the Liberals and the Conservatives.

Minority governments have been some of our most effective governments, or at least some of the least controversial dictatorial governments, since the ruling party had to get help from one of the other parties.  Universal healthcare for example for the first, and Harper's minority governments for the second. 

Scandium

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2020, 03:19:15 PM »
Quote
okay, Charlie's supporters put him 1st, who did they put 2nd?" so the 2s of Charlie's supporters are assigned to Anna and Bob accordingly.

That sounds almost diabolical.  I like it.  Pollsters and statisticians must have fun figuring this out in your political landscape.  In our firmly entrenched two-party system, any vote for a third party candidate is decried by somebody as a tacit vote for the opposition if that third party is similar to them (voting Green Party rather than Democratic).  The lesser candidate's votes automatically shifting to their second pick would give that minority party considerable clout as a solid group of swing voters.  I don't see how mandatory voting necessarily fits in with this, but I could see this dramatically increasing voluntary participation.

It's been a while since I studied parliamentary politics, but with these proportionally-allocated votes and coalitions of parties, how do you get anything done?  A dictatorship is the easiest way for decisions to be made, and mob rule the most difficult. How does it work in the middle when there are six voting blocs and your cabinet/senior leadership might not get along?  I suppose it forces you to work together, but it doesn't always work out that way.  In the US it's a headscratcher when we read how your "government" just simply collapses and all the ministers have to resign and start over.

Ranked voting isn't unheard of in the US. Several locales use it, or are planning to. Largest being Maine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2020, 03:42:23 PM »
I would think making voting day a national holiday would drastically improve voter turnout without firing up the free speech crowd.

 A national "Voting Day" is an option I support.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2020, 03:48:47 PM »
Somehow I forgot about Janus.


While neither West Virginia State  Board of Education v. Barnette nor Janus are squarely on point  with a compulsory voting case, I have high confidence that the rationale that undergirds    each case's holding would inform and guide the Supreme Court to strike down  a compulsory voting statute  should   a challenge to one ever come before the Court.


Janus v. AFSCME (2018)


We have held time and again that freedom of speech “includes both the right to speak freely and the right to refrain from speaking at all.”

The right to eschew association for expressive purposes is likewise protected.
Freedom of association...plainly presupposes a freedom not to associate.

Forced associations that burden protected speech are impermissible.

As Justice Jackson memorably put it: “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or deed their faith therein."

Compelling individuals to mouth support for views they find objectionable violates that cardinal constitutional command, and in most contexts, any such effort would be universally condemned.

Suppose, for example, that the State of Illinois required all residents to sign a document expressing support for a particular set of positions on controversial public issues—say, the platform of one of the major political parties.

No one, we trust, would seriousl argue that the First Amendment permits this.

Perhaps because such compulsion so plainly violates the Constitution, most of our free speech cases have involved restrictions on what can be said, rather than laws compelling speech.

But measures compelling speech are at least as threatening.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 05:32:55 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

deborah

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2020, 04:03:08 PM »

I recommend it to all who'd like a better understanding of the process of governance, whether civilian or commercial.



Kyle S., your comprehensive knowledge of Australian politics is as impressive as your political insight into politics in general.
Yes, @Kyle Schuant explained it well, but we all know our own form of democracy, don’t we? That’s one of the things that our schools are supposed to teach us!

dividendman

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2020, 04:29:54 PM »
Having politicians represent less people, so, increasing the amount of representatives and senators by 10x or even 100x.

Why will this help?
- Less ability to gerrymander (but, I guess in this topic, gerrymandering is good because re-election is less of a concern since it's practically guaranteed for many districts)
- Less ability to corrupt (it's much easier to buy off a smaller set of politicians than a larger set)
- More local connection
- More need for coalition building

The number of federal politicians hasn't scaled with the population and this is causing problems.

Also, no direct election of the President, let the electoral college select anyone with this larger pool of electors described above, by secret ballot.

Also, have Senators be appointed by the Governors rather than direct election.


Kyle Schuant

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2020, 06:52:41 PM »
You don't need a voting holiday. You just have the default day be a Saturday, because that's the day where, in Western society, most people have a day off. Sunday even more people have the day off but the Christians will get upset.

You make it really easy for people to vote by having,
- voting's on Saturday
- with stacks and stacks of polling places, nobody having to wait more than 15 minutes to vote
- mobile polling booths for people in aged care homes, on remote worksites, etc (we sent one to Antarctica in 2019)
- plenty of chances for mail-in and pre-poll voting for those who can't or won't make the Saturday, like Jewish people or those with 10 kids or those who just hate meeting all the cheery party volunteers handing out how-to-vote cards

Don't look for complex solutions where simple ones will do. Basics first.

If you make it easier for people to vote, then you reduce the "re-election all the time" aspect of things because the current representative can be more confident in their support. Like, if only 40% of people vote, who knows, maybe my supporters think "he's popular, I don't have to help him stay in," they stay at home and watch football on election day and I lose. But if 80% vote then I'm a bit more sure of where I am.

All the replies of "but our Constitution says -". We're not talking about your fucked-up system. We're talking about better systems. It's been more than two centuries, if you decide to just tear it all up and start again nobody would blame you. Think of it this way: It was only 156 years from the Mayflower to your Declaration of Indepdence. It took 156 years to go from "england oh my england my king!" to "screw you all, let's republic." It's been 244 years since then. Maybe it's time to stop fiddling around with details and just wipe the slate clean?

Travis

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2020, 08:23:55 PM »
Quote
There's this thing Americans are not very familiar with. It's called "compromise." I get a bit of what I want, you get a bit of what you want, neither of us gets most of what we want. But it's better than nothing. Part of having a polarised system is that you lock in the idea of never compromising. Both major parties tried that for a bit, nobody liked it.

We had a guy called Tony Abbott who was leader of the then Opposition (the party not in government) and who said, "the Opposition's job is to oppose," and he just reflexively opposed whatever the government wanted. Abbott was sometimes known as the Mad Monk as he'd spent time in the seminary and was fond of boxing, and his debating technique was similar; Abbott was a classic authoritarian right.

We're really good at this in the US.  In the middle of President Obama's tenure, Republicans gained majorities in both houses (and like your Senate the vote difference is rarely more than a couple) and the Senate Majority Leader McConnell (who as part of his responsibilities sets the calendar/agenda of the Senate) walked up to a microphone and proclaimed that his primary mission was to obstruct the President for the rest of his term.  It's assumed that most opposition politicians are out for their own party's agenda, but this may have been the first time the senior officer of the Senate made it so resoundingly clear. He's still speaks of that moment proudly as if that's his actual job description and it was a historical accomplishment.

Quote
All the replies of "but our Constitution says -". We're not talking about your fucked-up system. We're talking about better systems. It's been more than two centuries, if you decide to just tear it all up and start again nobody would blame you. Think of it this way: It was only 156 years from the Mayflower to your Declaration of Indepdence. It took 156 years to go from "england oh my england my king!" to "screw you all, let's republic." It's been 244 years since then. Maybe it's time to stop fiddling around with details and just wipe the slate clean?

I'm trying to frame my involvement here in what could realistically be accomplished. We're not tearing up the Constitution and starting with a clean sheet. Short of a civil war it's just not going to happen.  The document was designed during a time of crisis and was a series of compromises (and even back then we had individualistic 'my way or the highway' attitudes).  Instead of "it's been 244 years, why don't you start over? I see it as "it's been 244 years with some course corrections. Not too shabby."  It's an American point of pride that our Constitution is designed to be amended when something needs to be fixed.  I'd hate to set a precedent that the whole thing can be torn up if enough of a possibly temporary majority just doesn't like it in its present state.  Supreme Court Justice Scalia once joked that if you go to the library and ask to see the US Constitution, the librarian will simply show it to you. If you ask him to see the French Constitution, he'll ask "which one?" and point you to the archives section.

I think the ranked voting proposed here would have a better chance of becoming law than some other ideas, and would still generate a significant impact that might lead to the other ideas gaining traction later.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2020, 10:43:06 PM »
I'm trying to frame my involvement here in what could realistically be accomplished. We're not tearing up the Constitution and starting with a clean sheet. Short of a civil war it's just not going to happen.
Or a states' constitutional convention.

Quote
Instead of "it's been 244 years, why don't you start over? I see it as "it's been 244 years with some course corrections. Not too shabby."
The civil war was quite a "course correction." And I think its longevity also has to do with your Supreme Court reading the Constitution like most people read the Bible - one bunch read it and go and shoot up an abortion clinic, another bunch read it and devote their lives to helping lepers. I mean, the same document has been read to justify slaves being property, and desegregating schools, and allowing abortion, and disallowing capital punishment, then allowing capital punishment, then allowing money as "speech", allowing same sex marriage, disallowing voter suppression then later allowing voter suppression, and so on. The only reason it's lasted this long is its meaning is taken as a magic rubber band - you can stretch it to tie up anything.

It's not well-known, but in the last year of its existence, the Soviet Union voted on a new Union Treaty. They achieved 77.8% support in the nine participating republics (Armenia, Georgia, the Baltic states and Moldova didn't hold a proper vote because the leaders there feared the result would be against their desired independence). It was actually this that caused the hardliners to mount a coup d'etat in August, because they feared the various republics would go entirely their own way, but of course their doing the coup provoked those nine republics to do exactly that.

But not one of those 9 held a popular vote on whether to become independent, it was just decided by their legislatures. Which is to say that most of the people of the constituent states of the Soviet Union wanted it to continue in some form - but their representatives ignored their wishes and made their republics independent. Basically, most politicians would rather be President of Woop Woop than Governor of Woop Woop in the Federation of Minor States.

So you never know. Consider: you've previously had federal government shutdowns for a month or so. What if you had one for, say, 12 months? We're seeing right now that in the absence of effective federal government action, the various states will take matters into their own hands. Might the states take over taxation and spending and other functions of the federal government "just for the duration of the shutdown"? What if you hit the debt ceiling in the middle of a pandemic and you have a Senate Majority Leader who opposes for the sake of it and there's a federal government shutdown?

Anything can happen. No country lasts forever.

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2020, 11:24:29 PM »
Quote
There's this thing Americans are not very familiar with. It's called "compromise." I get a bit of what I want, you get a bit of what you want, neither of us gets most of what we want. But it's better than nothing. Part of having a polarised system is that you lock in the idea of never compromising. Both major parties tried that for a bit, nobody liked it.

We had a guy called Tony Abbott who was leader of the then Opposition (the party not in government) and who said, "the Opposition's job is to oppose," and he just reflexively opposed whatever the government wanted. Abbott was sometimes known as the Mad Monk as he'd spent time in the seminary and was fond of boxing, and his debating technique was similar; Abbott was a classic authoritarian right.

We're really good at this in the US.  In the middle of President Obama's tenure, Republicans gained majorities in both houses (and like your Senate the vote difference is rarely more than a couple) and the Senate Majority Leader McConnell (who as part of his responsibilities sets the calendar/agenda of the Senate) walked up to a microphone and proclaimed that his primary mission was to obstruct the President for the rest of his term.  It's assumed that most opposition politicians are out for their own party's agenda, but this may have been the first time the senior officer of the Senate made it so resoundingly clear. He's still speaks of that moment proudly as if that's his actual job description and it was a historical accomplishment.

Quote
All the replies of "but our Constitution says -". We're not talking about your fucked-up system. We're talking about better systems. It's been more than two centuries, if you decide to just tear it all up and start again nobody would blame you. Think of it this way: It was only 156 years from the Mayflower to your Declaration of Indepdence. It took 156 years to go from "england oh my england my king!" to "screw you all, let's republic." It's been 244 years since then. Maybe it's time to stop fiddling around with details and just wipe the slate clean?

I'm trying to frame my involvement here in what could realistically be accomplished. We're not tearing up the Constitution and starting with a clean sheet. Short of a civil war it's just not going to happen.  The document was designed during a time of crisis and was a series of compromises (and even back then we had individualistic 'my way or the highway' attitudes).  Instead of "it's been 244 years, why don't you start over? I see it as "it's been 244 years with some course corrections. Not too shabby."  It's an American point of pride that our Constitution is designed to be amended when something needs to be fixed.  I'd hate to set a precedent that the whole thing can be torn up if enough of a possibly temporary majority just doesn't like it in its present state.  Supreme Court Justice Scalia once joked that if you go to the library and ask to see the US Constitution, the librarian will simply show it to you. If you ask him to see the French Constitution, he'll ask "which one?" and point you to the archives section.

I think the ranked voting proposed here would have a better chance of becoming law than some other ideas, and would still generate a significant impact that might lead to the other ideas gaining traction later.

There is already a precedent for tearing up the constitution and starting again. This current constitution is at least the 2nd one this country  has used (the previous being the articles of confederation).

Many of the framers specifically were for redrawing the constitution periodically, to ensure that the government adapted to society as it evolved. That is, the French model that you seem to disagree with.

LennStar

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2020, 02:06:22 AM »
You make it really easy for people to vote by having,
- voting's on Saturday
- with stacks and stacks of polling places, nobody having to wait more than 15 minutes to vote
- mobile polling booths for people in aged care homes, on remote worksites, etc (we sent one to Antarctica in 2019)
- plenty of chances for mail-in and pre-poll voting for those who can't or won't make the Saturday, like Jewish people or those with 10 kids or those who just hate meeting all the cheery party volunteers handing out how-to-vote cards
Germany:
- voting is on sunday. Least people work there.
- of course (nearly) every school etc. is voiting place. As long as you don't go in the "rush hour", you should not wait at all
- Antartica might have been okay with mail voting, but that aside I agree :D
- it's generally 2-3 weeks before that everyone gets their "voting card" which you can use for mail voting or upfront voting at your local town house or whatever is used. For reasons you can get it even earlier.
And there is no party greeter and nobady handing out party cards. In fact party ads are forbidden close to polling places.

And you know what? Even with all those mail voting possibilites there are seldom any frauds. (And in all but one case I heard of done by conservatives btw.)

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2020, 11:37:38 AM »

 It's an American point of pride that our Constitution is designed to be amended when something needs to be fixed.  I'd hate to set a precedent that the whole thing can be torn up if enough of a possibly temporary majority just doesn't like it in its present state.


 "Why did the Framers provide for amending the Constitution?"
 
^

I've  asked this question of scholars and jurists  who  imperiously dismiss  the view that the Constitution is a living, breathing, charter of liberty.

As intended by the Framers, amending the Constitution is difficult.

Despite this difficulty, in 1951 it was amended to limit a president to two terms (Amendment XXII).

Amending it again to  limit the terms of House members  and Senators  is not impossible.

Constitutionally commanded term limits for Congress answers the  OP's question and accomplishes his objective which is shared by many others including myself.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 01:24:27 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2020, 01:22:21 PM »

Or a states' constitutional convention.



 Limitation of  Congress' terms by way of an Article V Convention for proposing Amendments  is exceedingly problematic.

Under Article V, "Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States" is required to call a "Convention for proposing Amendments."

The statehouses  are  populated by the same type of grasping careerists  that comprise much of Congress. Some of them aspire to a seat in the House of Representatives or Senate. They have no appetite for an amendment that limits the term of an office they may hold in the future.

Furthermore, careerist state legislators who have no desire for a seat in Congress will be reluctant to support  amendments that limit congressional office because of their apprehension that "if this term limits  thing happens to Congress it may catch on and happen to state legislators like me."


« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 02:11:05 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2020, 09:57:36 AM »


That may be so, but it is still just a "right" set by "stare decisis"/"implication" etc, and NOT by the constitution itself - and so the protection afforded to any such activity should be to a lower degree. At least that is what my layman's common sense tells me.


Implied/inferred fundamental  rights that are not enshrined in the Constitution are protected to exactly the same maximum degree as the fundamental rights that are enshrined in the Constitution.

For the last 100 years or thereabouts, Supreme Court rulings rooted in inferred/implied rights, or interpretations of the meaning of  "liberty" in the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause,  have profoundly enhanced the liberty of the American people. The profundity of societal change attributable to these Court-established, fundamental  liberties cannot be overstated.





Anything "inferred" is fallible. Does the legal process allow for this by affording a lower degree of protection for such "inferred" rights?


"We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." Justice Robert H. Jackson


Emphatically no.

Inferred fundamental rights are equally  as indispensable to human freedom as the fundamental rights enshrined  in the Constitution's Bill of Rights.

It is axiomatic that fundamental rights warrant  maximum protection.

Therefore, there is absolutely no gradation  of protection of fundamental rights based upon  their  inclusion in the original text of the Constitution or not.


Note: I don't mean to have my post come across in an adversarial manner.

I have never sensed a scintilla of adversarial  tone in any of my discussions with you or any other Mu$tachian.  If I  did I wouldn't care a whit because in the interest of the spirit of free speech I always encourage people  to speak their mind in the words  and tone of their choosing.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 10:09:44 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

ministashy

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2020, 01:10:36 AM »

Or a states' constitutional convention.



 Limitation of  Congress' terms by way of an Article V Convention for proposing Amendments  is exceedingly problematic.

Under Article V, "Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States" is required to call a "Convention for proposing Amendments."

The statehouses  are  populated by the same type of grasping careerists  that comprise much of Congress. Some of them aspire to a seat in the House of Representatives or Senate. They have no appetite for an amendment that limits the term of an office they may hold in the future.

Furthermore, careerist state legislators who have no desire for a seat in Congress will be reluctant to support  amendments that limit congressional office because of their apprehension that "if this term limits  thing happens to Congress it may catch on and happen to state legislators like me."

A more practical reason for some states to oppose Congressional term limits is that, especially for low-population states, seniority is how you get anyone to listen to you.  For states like North Dakota, South Dakota, and Alaska, who all only have the standard two senators and just ONE representative in the House apiece, right now the only way they can bring home any pork/federal funding for their states is to have Congresscritters senior enough to get on powerful committees so that they can make sure their states get any consideration at all when budgets and bills get proposed.  If everyone is limited to two terms, seniority goes out the window.

LennStar

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2020, 04:49:27 AM »
Quote
Inferred fundamental rights are equally  as indispensable to human freedom as the fundamental rights enshrined  in the Constitution's Bill of Rights.

It is axiomatic that fundamental rights warrant  maximum protection.

Therefore, there is absolutely no gradation  of protection of fundamental rights based upon  their  inclusion in the original text of the Constitution or not.
Just for comparison:

The highest German court basically said something similar when it announced the right of Data Protection, which the writers of our Grundgesetz could not have known about, since they didn't know ubiquious computers.

In their ruling they stated that your personal data is part of your "human dignity", which is inviolable according to §1.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2020, 12:11:25 PM »
Quote
Inferred fundamental rights are equally  as indispensable to human freedom as the fundamental rights enshrined  in the Constitution's Bill of Rights.

It is axiomatic that fundamental rights warrant  maximum protection.

Therefore, there is absolutely no gradation  of protection of fundamental rights based upon  their  inclusion in the original text of the Constitution or not.
Just for comparison:

The highest German court basically said something similar when it announced the right of Data Protection, which the writers of our Grundgesetz could not have known about, since they didn't know ubiquious computers.

In their ruling they stated that your personal data is part of your "human dignity", which is inviolable according to §1.

Another example of  a fundamental right the Framers could not have envisioned is the right to a frozen embryo.

The overarching principles of human dignity and human liberty underpin the fundamental rights that are enshrined in the Constitution AND fundamental rights established by the Supreme Court that have no origin in the original text of the Constitution.

Reportedly, in the colonial period, a delegate to a state convention said  "All our rights are not yet known."

The Framers understood  that the Bill of Rights was not an exhaustive list of fundamental liberties. James Madison, the "father of the Constitution" was concerned that one day the national government  (federal government) would take the position  that  all requisite rights were included in the Bill of Rights and there were no others. To avoid the possibility of such a dire, future  encroachment on individual liberty the Ninth Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights.

AMENDMENT IX [1791]

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Professor Tribe said the Ninth Amendment is an instruction that reminds readers of the Bill of Rights that it is not a comprehensive list of our liberties.


The vagueness  of the Ninth Amendment provides no specific basis for inference of any particular  right which is the reason Supreme Court justices have not relied on it in the first instance for establishing a fundamental right.  However,  in Griswold,  Justice Goldberg, in lengthy detail, did rely on the Ninth Amendment for the   formulation of his cogent, concurring opinion.

In a polity riven by visceral enmity the Supreme Court has become an increasingly despised institution. To all  those who revile the high Court I say consider how  illiberal and stultifying America would be now,  in the 21st century, if not for all the  Court's crucial decisions  since Meyer.



Meyer v. Nebraska
  (1923)


While this Court has not attempted to define with exactness the liberty [of the 14th Amendment]...the term has received much consideration and some of the included things have been definitely stated. Without doubt, it denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint, but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.

     
             
Pierce v. Society of Sisters (1925)


The fundamental theory of liberty upon which all governments in this Union repose excludes any general power of the State to standardize its children by forcing them to accept instruction from public teachers only. The child is not the mere creature of the State; those who nurture him and direct his destiny have the right, coupled with the high duty, to recognize and prepare him for additional obligations.



                 

  Skinner v. Oklahoma ex rel. Williamson (1942)


We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race. The power to sterilize, if exercised, may have subtle, far-reaching and devastating effects. In evil or reckless hands, it can cause races or types which are inimical to the dominant group to wither and disappear. There is no redemption for the individual whom the law touches. Any experiment which the State conducts is to his irreparable injury. He is forever deprived of a basic liberty.



                           

Poe v Ullman (1961)


Justice Harlan's Dissent

[T]he full scope of the liberty guaranteed by the Due Process Clause cannot be found in or limited by the precise terms of the specific guarantees elsewhere provided in the Constitution.

This "liberty" is not a series of isolated points pricked out in terms of the taking of property; the freedom of speech, press, and religion; the right to keep and bear arms; the freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures; and so on.

It is a rational continuum which, broadly speaking, includes a freedom from all substantial arbitrary impositions and purposeless restraints,...and which also recognizes, what a reasonable and sensitive judgment must, that certain interests require particularly careful scrutiny of the state needs asserted to justify their abridgment.

Due process has not been reduced to any formula; its content cannot be determined by reference to any code.The best that can be said is that, through the course of this Court's decisions, it has represented the balance which our Nation, built upon postulates of respect for the liberty of the individual, has struck between that liberty and the demands of organized society.

If the supplying of content to this Constitutional concept has, of necessity, been a rational process, it certainly has not been one where judges have felt free to roam where unguided speculation might take them.

The balance of which I speak is the balance struck by this country, having regard to what history teaches are the traditions from which it developed as well as the traditions from which it broke.

That tradition is a living thing. A decision of this Court which radically departs from it could not long survive, while a decision which builds on what has survived is likely to be sound. No formula could serve as a substitute, in this area, for judgment and restraint.




                     

  Griswold v. Connecticut (1965)


The present case, then, concerns a relationship lying within the zone of privacy created by several fundamental constitutional guarantees. And it concerns a law which, in forbidding the use of contraceptives, rather than regulating their manufacture or sale, seeks to achieve its goals by means having a maximum destructive impact upon that relationship. Such a law cannot stand in light of the familiar principle, so often applied by this Court, that a governmental purpose to control or prevent activities constitutionally subject to state regulation may not be achieved by means which sweep unnecessarily broadly and thereby invade the area of protected freedoms.



                                   
Loving v. Virginia (1967)


These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.


                                   
 
   Eisenstadt v. Baird (1972)


 If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child.


                                             
  Roe v. Wade (1973)


The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy.

In a line of decisions, however,...the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution.

 In varying contexts...the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment,...in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments,...in the penumbras of the Bill of Rights,...in the Ninth Amendment, or in the concept of liberty guaranteed by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment.


These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed "fundamental" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,"...are included in this guarantee of personal privacy.

They also make it clear that...this right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.


                       
  Zablocki v. Redhail (1978)


Since our past decisions make clear that the right to marry is of fundamental importance, and since the classification at issue here significantly interferes with the exercise of that right, we believe that "critical examination" of the state interests advanced in support of the classification is required.

Subsequent decisions of this Court confirm that the right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals.

Long ago...the Court characterized marriage as "the most important relation in life" and as "the foundation of the family and of society, without which there would be neither civilization nor progress."



   
   
Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey (1992)


It is tempting, as a means of curbing the discretion of federal judges, to suppose that liberty encompasses no more than those rights already guaranteed to the individual against federal interference by the express provisions of the first eight amendments to the Constitution. But of course this Court has never accepted that view.

 It is a promise of the Constitution that there is a realm of personal liberty which the government may not enter. We have vindicated this principle before.

Neither the Bill of Rights nor the specific practices of States at the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment marks the outer limits of the substantive sphere of liberty which the Fourteenth Amendment protects.

Our law affords constitutional protection to personal decisions relating to marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, child rearing, and education.

Our cases recognize "the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child."

Our precedents "have respected the private realm of family life which the state cannot enter."

These matters, involving the most intimate and personal choices a person may make in a lifetime, choices central to personal dignity and autonomy, are central to the liberty protected by the Fourteenth Amendment.

 At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State.



                   

Lawrence  v. Texas
(2003)

Liberty protects the person from unwarranted government intrusions into a dwelling or other private places.

In our tradition the State is not omnipresent in the home. And there are other spheres of our lives and existence, outside the home, where the State should not be a dominant presence.

Freedom extends beyond spatial bounds. Liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct. The instant case involves liberty of the person both in its spatial and more transcendent dimensions.


                     
 
Obergefell  v. Hodges (2015)


The Constitution promises liberty to all within its reach, a liberty that includes certain specific rights that allow  persons, within a lawful realm, to define and express their identity.

From their beginning to their most recent page, the annals of human history reveal the transcendent importance of marriage... Rising from the most basic human needs, marriage is essential to our most profound hopes and aspirations.

Indeed, changed understandings of marriage are characteristic of a Nation where new dimensions of freedom become apparent to new generations, often through perspectives that begin in pleas or protests and then are considered in the political sphere and the judicial process.


Under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, no State shall “deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” The fundamental liberties protected by this Clause include most of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

In addition these liberties extend to certain personal choices central to individual dignity and autonomy, including intimate choices that define personal identity and beliefs.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 04:03:24 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

ctuser1

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2020, 02:04:45 PM »
....

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"
....

"We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." Justice Robert H. Jackson

....
Emphatically no.

Inferred fundamental rights are equally  as indispensable to human freedom as the fundamental rights enshrined  in the Constitution's Bill of Rights.

It is axiomatic that fundamental rights warrant  maximum protection.

Therefore, there is absolutely no gradation  of protection of fundamental rights based upon  their  inclusion in the original text of the Constitution or not.
....

I have many questions - but let me try to collect my thought and summarize the important rather than exercise your patience by rambling on.

--------------------------------------------------

The ninth amendment seems to be a key one. When I read that, the phrase that jumps up to me is "by the people". That sounds and smells like a shorthand way of saying "by the congress", or maybe a referendum?

How did we go from there to mean "whatever nine un-elected judges decide is implied, with zero external accountability to anyone else"? Is there anything external (i.e. constitution, law of congress) that affords this ability to the supreme court to "interpret", as they choose, how interpretations are to be done? Or did the Supreme Court just arrogate unto itself the power to interpret unconstrained "by the people" in any way?

If it is indeed a closed loop, that sounds to me to be very ripe for a systemic breakdown - like indeed what may be happening with Citizens or Heller.

--------------------------------------------------

Who determined the process using which the court(s) can overturn what previous judges did (or did not) think was implied? I am sure many such situations would have arisen over the last 300 years.

Were citizens or heller unique questions in front of the court that was never raised before the court? Or did the court significantly expand or overturn previous interpretations? There seems to be a sudden judicial energy since the 80s to significant expand “libertarian” interpretations of the constitution. Is there any checks or balances against that sort of partisan takeover?

--------------------------------------------------

My fundamental question is really accountability. The framers of the constitution were super careful about checks and balances. It seems very unlikely they would have created a not-accountable-to-anyone entity like the supreme court. If I am reading things alright - the supreme court can basically just declare anything "implied", and because they are "final" - can rule the country by fiat.

What's there to prevent that?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 03:05:31 PM by ctuser1 »

Travis

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2020, 07:35:18 PM »
....

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"
....

"We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." Justice Robert H. Jackson

....
Emphatically no.

Inferred fundamental rights are equally  as indispensable to human freedom as the fundamental rights enshrined  in the Constitution's Bill of Rights.

It is axiomatic that fundamental rights warrant  maximum protection.

Therefore, there is absolutely no gradation  of protection of fundamental rights based upon  their  inclusion in the original text of the Constitution or not.
....

I have many questions - but let me try to collect my thought and summarize the important rather than exercise your patience by rambling on.

--------------------------------------------------

The ninth amendment seems to be a key one. When I read that, the phrase that jumps up to me is "by the people". That sounds and smells like a shorthand way of saying "by the congress", or maybe a referendum?

How did we go from there to mean "whatever nine un-elected judges decide is implied, with zero external accountability to anyone else"? Is there anything external (i.e. constitution, law of congress) that affords this ability to the supreme court to "interpret", as they choose, how interpretations are to be done? Or did the Supreme Court just arrogate unto itself the power to interpret unconstrained "by the people" in any way?

If it is indeed a closed loop, that sounds to me to be very ripe for a systemic breakdown - like indeed what may be happening with Citizens or Heller.

--------------------------------------------------

Who determined the process using which the court(s) can overturn what previous judges did (or did not) think was implied? I am sure many such situations would have arisen over the last 300 years.

Were citizens or heller unique questions in front of the court that was never raised before the court? Or did the court significantly expand or overturn previous interpretations? There seems to be a sudden judicial energy since the 80s to significant expand “libertarian” interpretations of the constitution. Is there any checks or balances against that sort of partisan takeover?

--------------------------------------------------

My fundamental question is really accountability. The framers of the constitution were super careful about checks and balances. It seems very unlikely they would have created a not-accountable-to-anyone entity like the supreme court. If I am reading things alright - the supreme court can basically just declare anything "implied", and because they are "final" - can rule the country by fiat.

What's there to prevent that?

It's called Judicial Review, and it's a power the Court gave themselves shortly after Washington's first term.  This authority is derived from the language in Article VI charging the Court with "upholding the Constitution."  The only real check on this is a self-imposed one.  They won't review a law unless someone brings it to the Court for review. The Court doesn't go out of its way to look for work.  Having a non-elected lifetime Court was meant as checks against needing to worry about public opinion or their jobs being threatened by political pressure.  They're really only accountable to each other as a group in that they rarely vote on anything unanimously.  A fundamental difference in opinion among the Justices over the years has been how much they can interpret the Constitution versus make rules on what it says in black and white.  There have also been plenty of occasions where they flat out said "this isn't in our scope of work" and kicked a case back down to a lower court.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2020, 03:34:59 AM »
....

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"
....

"We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final." Justice Robert H. Jackson

....
Emphatically no.

Inferred fundamental rights are equally  as indispensable to human freedom as the fundamental rights enshrined  in the Constitution's Bill of Rights.

It is axiomatic that fundamental rights warrant  maximum protection.

Therefore, there is absolutely no gradation  of protection of fundamental rights based upon  their  inclusion in the original text of the Constitution or not.
....

I have many questions - but let me try to collect my thought and summarize the important rather than exercise your patience by rambling on.

--------------------------------------------------

The ninth amendment seems to be a key one. When I read that, the phrase that jumps up to me is "by the people". That sounds and smells like a shorthand way of saying "by the congress", or maybe a referendum?

 The Ninth Amendment is  devoid of any concrete, doctrinal specifics such as equal protection and substantive due process, or any  right or precedent  that would provide established, substantive, constitutional linkage for the Supreme Court to rely on in a case that could result in its establishment of a  fundamental right.


The Sixth Circuit case, Gibson v. Matthews (1991) provides a succinct  elucidation of the Ninth Amendment's purpose.


The ninth amendment does not confer substantive rights in addition to those conferred by other portions of our governing law. The ninth amendment was added to the Bill of Rights to ensure that the maxim expression unique est exclusion alterius would not be used at a later time to deny fundamental rights merely because they were not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.



How did we go from there to mean "whatever nine un-elected judges decide is implied, with zero external accountability to anyone else"? Is there anything external (i.e. constitution, law of congress) that affords this ability to the supreme court to "interpret", as they choose, how interpretations are to be done? Or did the Supreme Court just arrogate unto itself the power to interpret unconstrained "by the people" in any way?

If it is indeed a closed loop, that sounds to me to be very ripe for a systemic breakdown - like indeed what may be happening with Citizens or Heller.

--------------------------------------------------

Who determined the process using which the court(s) can overturn what previous judges did (or did not) think was implied? I am sure many such situations would have arisen over the last 300 years.

 

My fundamental question is really accountability. The framers of the constitution were super careful about checks and balances. It seems very unlikely they would have created a not-accountable-to-anyone entity like the supreme court. If I am reading things alright - the supreme court can basically just declare anything "implied", and because they are "final" - can rule the country by fiat.

If the Supreme Court strikes down a statute Congress or State legislatures can rewrite it so it passes constitutional muster. A Supreme Court ruling can be reversed by amending the Constitution.

Stare decisis is not an inexorable command. In some cases the dissent is more important that the majority opinion. For example, it took only about 32 years for the dissenters in Lochner to prevail.

Equitable and impartial judicial review requires an independent judiciary.

Supreme Court justices must avoid political affiliations and entanglements  that could give rise to even the slightest  appearance of  impropriety.The further the Court's remove from the vicissitudes of politics the better.


As the   guardian of the Constitution and sentinel of liberty, the Supreme  Court
must never be constrained by the people. Should that ever eventuate constitutional norms would undergo an anathemic degradation  that invites the insidious supplantation of  a government of laws by a government of men.


 If liberty and justice  are to flourish, and "EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW"  prevail, the Supreme  Court's  polestar must ever be, above all else, an unswerving commitment to upholding the Constitution.


Marbury v. Madison (1803)is the most monumentally important case in the history of constitutional adjudication. Marbury's landmark precedent towers above all others.Marbury's precedent is the precedent of all precedents.



In Marbury, C.J. John Marshall  exposited  the rationale that led to his conclusion that "It is emphatically the province and duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is" and that "the particular phraseology of the Constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written Constitutions, that a law repugnant to the Constitution is void, and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument."




Marbury v. Madison (1803)

That the people have an original right to establish for their future government such principles as, in their opinion, shall most conduce to their own happiness is the basis on which the whole American fabric has been erected.


The exercise of this original right is a very great exertion; nor can it nor ought it to be frequently repeated. The principles, therefore, so established are deemed fundamental.And as the authority from which they proceed, is supreme, and can seldom act, they are designed to be permanent.

This original and supreme will organizes the government and assigns to different departments their respective powers. It may either stop here or establish certain limits not to be transcended by those departments.

The Government of the United States is of the latter description. The powers of the Legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken or forgotten, the Constitution is written.


 To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing, if these limits may at any time be passed by those intended to be restrained? The distinction between a government with limited and unlimited powers is abolished if those limits do not confine the persons on whom they are imposed, and if acts prohibited and acts allowed are of equal obligation.


It is a proposition too plain to be contested that the Constitution controls any legislative act repugnant to it, or that the Legislature may alter the Constitution by an ordinary act.

Between these alternatives there is no middle ground. The Constitution is either a superior, paramount law, unchangeable by ordinary means, or it is on a level with ordinary legislative acts, and, like other acts, is alterable when the legislature shall please to alter it.

If the former part of the alternative be true, then a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law; if the latter part be true, then written Constitutions are absurd attempts on the part of the people to limit a power in its own nature illimitable.

Certainly all those who have framed written Constitutions contemplate them as forming the fundamental and paramount law of the nation, and consequently the theory of every such government must be that an act of the Legislature repugnant to the Constitution is void.

This theory is essentially attached to a written Constitution, and is consequently to be considered by this Court as one of the fundamental principles of our society. It is not, therefore, to be lost sight of in the further consideration of this subject.

If an act of the Legislature repugnant to the Constitution is void, does it, notwithstanding its invalidity, bind the Courts and oblige them to give it effect? Or, in other words, though it be not law, does it constitute a rule as operative as if it was a law?


This would be to overthrow in fact what was established in theory, and would seem, at first view, an absurdity too gross to be insisted on. It shall, however, receive a more attentive consideration.

It is emphatically the province and duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases must, of necessity, expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the Courts must decide on the operation of each.

So, if a law be in opposition to the Constitution, if both the law and the Constitution apply to a particular case, so that the Court must either decide that case conformably to the law, disregarding the Constitution, or conformably to the Constitution, disregarding the law, the Court must determine which of these conflicting rules governs the case. This is of the very essence of judicial duty.

If, then, the Courts are to regard the Constitution, and the Constitution is superior to any ordinary act of the Legislature, the Constitution, and not such ordinary act, must govern the case to which they both apply.

Those, then, who controvert the principle that the Constitution is to be considered in court as a paramount law are reduced to the necessity of maintaining that courts must close their eyes on the Constitution, and see only the law.

This doctrine would subvert the very foundation of all written Constitutions. It would declare that an act which, according to the principles and theory of our government, is entirely void, is yet, in practice, completely obligatory.


It would declare that, if the Legislature shall do what is expressly forbidden, such act, notwithstanding the express prohibition, is in reality effectual. It would be giving to the Legislature a practical and real omnipotence with the same breath which professes to restrict their powers within narrow limits. It is prescribing limits, and declaring that those limits may be passed at pleasure.

That it thus reduces to nothing what we have deemed the greatest improvement on political institutions -- a written Constitution, would of itself be sufficient, in America where written Constitutions have been viewed with so much reverence, for rejecting the construction.


 But the peculiar expressions of the Constitution of the United States furnish additional arguments in favour of its rejection.

The judicial power of the United States is extended to all cases arising under the Constitution.

Could it be the intention of those who gave this power to say that, in using it, the Constitution should not be looked into? That a case arising under the Constitution should be decided without examining the instrument under which it arises?

This is too extravagant to be maintained.

In some cases then, the Constitution must be looked into by the judges. And if they can open it at all, what part of it are they forbidden to read or to obey?

There are many other parts of the Constitution which serve to illustrate this subject.From these [other parts of the Constitution] and many other selections which might be made, it is apparent that the framers of the Constitution contemplated that instrument as a rule for the government of courts, as well as of the Legislature.

Why does a judge swear to discharge his duties agreeably to the Constitution of the United States if that Constitution forms no rule for his government? if it is closed upon him and cannot be inspected by him?

If such be the real state of things, this is worse than solemn mockery. To prescribe or to take this oath becomes equally a crime.

It is also not entirely unworthy of observation that, in declaring what shall be the supreme law of the land, the Constitution itself is first mentioned, and not the laws of the United States generally, but those only which shall be made in pursuance of the Constitution, have that rank.

Thus, the particular phraseology of the Constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written Constitutions, that a law repugnant to the Constitution is void, and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 04:50:23 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

marty998

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2020, 06:22:03 AM »
I had the most wonderful hot chocolate mixed with boozy butterscotch schnapps just now, and it was ruined by these walls of texts people are putting up.

It disappoints me to see otherwise educated people here proclaiming without a hint of shame that they do not vote.

Many people fought and died for the right to vote. You do them all a disservice with your cries of "but Freedom!!"

It's a really small set of steps between "these people usually don't vote" to "these people usually don't vote, but they're uneducated/indigent/imprisoned/too old/too stupid/too different so their voices don't matter anyway". The actions of one of your political parties in the US seem to be going down that path. What happens if the last step is "only registered Republicans can vote"? Don't laugh, as an outside observer, some of your States don't seem too far away from that.

Compulsory voting ensures that the principles of universal suffrage are upheld to the best of society's ability. One person one vote. You can hardly call it democracy when only half the people vote. Your politicians should have to appeal to a broad spectrum of society in order to win enough votes for election, not just the small section (say 25%) of upper middle class suburbanites who will guarantee them a seat, without them having to even consider a policy for the other 75% of society.

You may quibble (and there's been a lot of quibbling) on what happens next and how that vote is tallied, but it should always start with making sure that every vote that can be cast, is in fact cast.

And besides, compulsory voting means there are lots of people buying a sausage sizzle while queuing to vote at their local school, thus contributing much needed fundraising for the kids :)

nkt0

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2020, 06:39:46 AM »
Compulsory voting ensures that the principles of universal suffrage are upheld to the best of society's ability. One person one vote. You can hardly call it democracy when only half the people vote. Your politicians should have to appeal to a broad spectrum of society in order to win enough votes for election, not just the small section (say 25%) of upper middle class suburbanites who will guarantee them a seat, without them having to even consider a policy for the other 75% of society.

I agree with this sentiment and also believe that compulsory voting is a good idea and part of a potential solution (although doesn't address the OP's original question). But as long as gerrymandering remains, the idea of "one person, one vote" is mythical. If politicians can draw the district boundaries, they have too much power in determining the balance of representation, which effectively disenfranchises people in non-competitive districts.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2020, 07:04:30 AM »
Compulsory voting ensures that the principles of universal suffrage are upheld to the best of society's ability. One person one vote. You can hardly call it democracy when only half the people vote. Your politicians should have to appeal to a broad spectrum of society in order to win enough votes for election, not just the small section (say 25%) of upper middle class suburbanites who will guarantee them a seat, without them having to even consider a policy for the other 75% of society.

I agree with this sentiment and also believe that compulsory voting is a good idea and part of a potential solution (although doesn't address the OP's original question). But as long as gerrymandering remains, the idea of "one person, one vote" is mythical. If politicians can draw the district boundaries, they have too much power in determining the balance of representation, which effectively disenfranchises people in non-competitive districts.

Definitely. So why are there not independent electoral commisions setting the riding boundaries?  You have the example right next door (Canada).

LaineyAZ

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2020, 07:16:10 AM »
Certain states do have independent redistricting commissions.  In AZ, it used to be the majority party in the state legislature that drew the maps, so it was controlled by Republicans.
Voters passed a proposition to change that, and now it's comprised of 2 Democrats, 2 Republicans, and 1 Independent.  Even then they were vilified by the Republicans in their last process because the Independent happened to vote the same as the 2 Democrats most of the time.  That by itself made the Republicans furious and they determined ipso facto she was biased against them.  ("if you are not for me then you are against me.") 

Public meetings with the explanations and presentations of the newly drawn maps were so heated that armed police officers had to be in attendance.  Nevertheless, the Republicans court challenges were unsuccessful.

Since we are now in 2020 with another census underway, the fun will start again soon.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 07:20:11 AM by LaineyAZ »

AccidentialMustache

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2020, 08:28:06 AM »
The First Amendment's guarantee of free speech  is at its fullest  in  political
contexts.

I adamantly oppose any restriction of political speech based upon the speaker's identity or any of its characteristics.

The constitution also starts with "we the people" not "we the corporations." Context matters.

They certainly had corporations back then. The east india company had been at it for almost 200 years at the point the founders were busy.

GuitarStv

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2020, 09:26:59 AM »
The First Amendment's guarantee of free speech  is at its fullest  in  political
contexts.

I adamantly oppose any restriction of political speech based upon the speaker's identity or any of its characteristics.

The constitution also starts with "we the people" not "we the corporations." Context matters.

They certainly had corporations back then. The east india company had been at it for almost 200 years at the point the founders were busy.

Yeah, but recent judicial cases have ruled that corporations are people (fundamentally stupid argument).  So the constitution has been reinterpreted to mean 'We the corporations'.

LennStar

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2020, 09:44:33 AM »
Compulsory voting ensures that the principles of universal suffrage are upheld to the best of society's ability. One person one vote. You can hardly call it democracy when only half the people vote. Your politicians should have to appeal to a broad spectrum of society in order to win enough votes for election, not just the small section (say 25%) of upper middle class suburbanites who will guarantee them a seat, without them having to even consider a policy for the other 75% of society.

I agree with this sentiment and also believe that compulsory voting is a good idea and part of a potential solution (although doesn't address the OP's original question). But as long as gerrymandering remains, the idea of "one person, one vote" is mythical. If politicians can draw the district boundaries, they have too much power in determining the balance of representation, which effectively disenfranchises people in non-competitive districts.

Definitely. So why are there not independent electoral commisions setting the riding boundaries?  You have the example right next door (Canada).
Because the people who would have to order the formation fo those independent electoral comissions are those who would be hurt the most by them - the people who, using the current rules, are in power.

Quote
That by itself made the Republicans furious and they determined ipso facto she was biased against them.
One of my favorite sentences is "Reality has a well known leftist bias."

Quote
They certainly had corporations back then. The east india company had been at it for almost 200 years at the point the founders were busy.
While this is true, I think that is a very unfair reference. Because you are definitely biased here by your modern days experience. The big Trading Companies of those times had more similarities with current day Imperial USA than with a modern company (where we live).
They had own troops and fleets, own jurisdictions and sometimes bullied states (not that nation states in our understanding even existed) into compliance to their will.
Regardless of that, in the founder's time it was literally unthinkable that a company would have free speech. Have you ever heard a hammer speak? A carriage write a poem?

And yes, "Citizens United" I think it was? was the most stupid think a US court ever ruled on their constitution. And that means something if you remember they ruled that "to promote arts and science" was done by giving already dead people a longer copyright. (See Sony Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, or "Mickey Mouse Law" as it is mostly known)

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2020, 11:21:45 AM »
For closer to home examples, the Founders could look north to see The Hudson's Bay Company and the start of the Northwest Company.  Both fur-trading companies that had enormous reach and influence.

JGS1980

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2020, 12:21:30 PM »
Instead of Compulsory Voting, why doesn't the US just move Election Day to a Sunday?

Alternatively, you can create a mandated national holiday one Tuesday every two years. Thus those who want to vote will be able to do so.  National Mail-In voting could work, to similar effect.

In practice, I think this will increase voter participation due to availability, while also eliminating the folks who would rather not be bothered.

nkt0

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2020, 01:16:01 PM »
Instead of Compulsory Voting, why doesn't the US just move Election Day to a Sunday?

Pretty simple answer to this: voter suppression.

deborah

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2020, 03:22:19 PM »
We have had gerrymanders in Australia, even though we have compulsory voting, but they don’t last. For instance, the state of Queensland had one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelkemander that lasted for a couple of decades.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2020, 02:50:59 PM »
Compulsory voting.

A plan for compulsory voting is really just a plan to fine me or put me in jail. I refuse to vote. This is for pragmatic reasons as well as moral reasons. I'm slowly being persuaded of the religious imperative as well.   

I have zero desire to impose my ideas on other people by force simply because their favored faction (if they have one) was unable to wring one more vote out than my faction.  Might does not make right.       
So, instead of voting for a faction that imposes their views on others, you are not voting so that a different faction that imposes their view on others might get it?

Or in the old trolley problem lingua: You decide to not push the lever between killing person A and killing person B. But by that you still decide that someone dies, you just have less control over it.
I see no moral improvement in that.

Putting that aside, having fewer votes means a worse outcome for everyone. The less votes a politician has to "buy" through public policies, the less public policies that benefit all are enacted.
And if the vote count gets small enough, you get no public policies at all, only corruption (FIFA or the Olympic Commitee are well known examples for small voter base institutions).
Which I count as a negative moral result for not voting.

btw. that is why a winner-takes-all system is the worst one.

I like the trolley analogy.  It's a false choice. Much like the false choice between one or the other of the two factions in our political duopoly. Ultimately both choices are bad ones. So why would someone want another person to make bad choices?  Usually because they're trying to transfer culpability.

I also happen disagree with the idea of binary choices.  They do exist, but are more unusual than we think and tend to exist more in our fevered imaginations than reality. 

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2020, 02:59:22 PM »
In regards to the comments about compulsory voting, I would think making voting day a national holiday would drastically improve voter turnout without firing up the free speech crowd. Also, ranked voting would be a great way of at least making a dent in the 2 party system.

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see postal voting, making Election Day a holiday, making it easier to register, etc.  I see no purpose in making voting more difficult than necessary.   My opinion is that you shouldn't want to vote in the first place. A system that makes it easier to vote also makes it a lot harder to plausibly argue that the reason why participation rates are abysmal is because voting is somehow difficult.  It really isn't.  The reason why nonvoters don't vote is because they don't want to.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2020, 03:00:13 PM »
Compulsory voting.

A plan for compulsory voting is really just a plan to fine me or put me in jail. I refuse to vote. This is for pragmatic reasons as well as moral reasons. I'm slowly being persuaded of the religious imperative as well.   

I have zero desire to impose my ideas on other people by force simply because their favored faction (if they have one) was unable to wring one more vote out than my faction.  Might does not make right.       
So, instead of voting for a faction that imposes their views on others, you are not voting so that a different faction that imposes their view on others might get it?

Or in the old trolley problem lingua: You decide to not push the lever between killing person A and killing person B. But by that you still decide that someone dies, you just have less control over it.
I see no moral improvement in that.

Putting that aside, having fewer votes means a worse outcome for everyone. The less votes a politician has to "buy" through public policies, the less public policies that benefit all are enacted.
And if the vote count gets small enough, you get no public policies at all, only corruption (FIFA or the Olympic Commitee are well known examples for small voter base institutions).
Which I count as a negative moral result for not voting.

btw. that is why a winner-takes-all system is the worst one.

I like the trolley analogy.  It's a false choice. Much like the false choice between one or the other of the two factions in our political duopoly. Ultimately both choices are bad ones. So why would someone want another person to make bad choices?  Usually because they're trying to transfer culpability.

I also happen disagree with the idea of binary choices.  They do exist, but are more unusual than we think and tend to exist more in our fevered imaginations than reality.

Isn't the American system basically set up to give a binary choice?  Which seems to allow the 2 parties to be more and more polarized.  In multi-party systems that much polarization would produce a third (or 4th or 5th) party to fill in the resulting gap.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2020, 03:47:20 PM »

Isn't the American system basically set up to give a binary choice?  Which seems to allow the 2 parties to be more and more polarized.  In multi-party systems that much polarization would produce a third (or 4th or 5th) party to fill in the resulting gap.

It is a binary system, but not by design.  That we have a binary choice with no competition is because it favors those who are currently in power. If you want to see some real “bipartisanship” in action, look to what our two factions do whenever there is a threat from a minor faction. See how quickly they circle the wagons! They will do everything they can to co-opt that threat, introduce ballot access requirements, require petitions to get on the ballot, etc. We haven’t had a new major faction in the US since the mid 19th century. The duopoly is very good at preserving it’s power.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2020, 04:14:50 PM »

Isn't the American system basically set up to give a binary choice?  Which seems to allow the 2 parties to be more and more polarized.  In multi-party systems that much polarization would produce a third (or 4th or 5th) party to fill in the resulting gap.

It is a binary system, but not by design.  That we have a binary choice with no competition is because it favors those who are currently in power. If you want to see some real “bipartisanship” in action, look to what our two factions do whenever there is a threat from a minor faction. See how quickly they circle the wagons! They will do everything they can to co-opt that threat, introduce ballot access requirements, require petitions to get on the ballot, etc. We haven’t had a new major faction in the US since the mid 19th century. The duopoly is very good at preserving it’s power.

It is how you are set up. 
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=pol&document=index&dir=can/bck&lang=e

Last election my riding had 5 candidates, all members of the main recognized parties, plus 2 independents, a marxist-leninist, a communist, and a rhinocerous.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-vanier-federal-election-2019-1.5267820

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2020, 04:44:32 PM »

Isn't the American system basically set up to give a binary choice?  Which seems to allow the 2 parties to be more and more polarized.  In multi-party systems that much polarization would produce a third (or 4th or 5th) party to fill in the resulting gap.

It is a binary system, but not by design.  That we have a binary choice with no competition is because it favors those who are currently in power. If you want to see some real “bipartisanship” in action, look to what our two factions do whenever there is a threat from a minor faction. See how quickly they circle the wagons! They will do everything they can to co-opt that threat, introduce ballot access requirements, require petitions to get on the ballot, etc. We haven’t had a new major faction in the US since the mid 19th century. The duopoly is very good at preserving it’s power.

It is how you are set up. 
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=pol&document=index&dir=can/bck&lang=e

Last election my riding had 5 candidates, all members of the main recognized parties, plus 2 independents, a marxist-leninist, a communist, and a rhinocerous.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-vanier-federal-election-2019-1.5267820

Not by original design, no. The folks in the late 18th century did not intend for a corrupt duopoly to rule for 160 plus years.  At any point since the 1860’s the Powers That Be could have enacted a different electoral system, could have allowed for meaningful competition, could have allowed proportional representation or any of a galaxy of reforms. That they haven’t speaks volumes. Yet we’re supposed to show up and vote in a rigged system because that’ll somehow change things? Really? You have a better chance of winning at three card Monte than getting meaningful change through the ballot.


Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2020, 05:15:54 PM »
Getting back to the OPs question, you have to ask what’s really important? Is it the process of electing one or another politician, or is it accomplishing good ends in society? If it’s the former, then by all means be sure to get involved in politics, get yourself all worked up over the inconsequential differences between the two political factions. And be sure to vote. I think it’s pretty fair bet that you’ll continue to get what you’ve been getting all along. If you’re happy with that, then what can I say? One bonus is that this year you’ll have an exciting choice in the presidential race between buffoonery on the one hand and dementia on the other. What a great menu!  Sorry (not sorry) that I’ll be taking a pass on that Sophie’s choice.

The other choice of focusing on accomplishing good ends in society, while the road less traveled, does offer certain advantages. First off, you don’t have to spend a lot of time listening to the talking heads of the partisan media. That’ll drop your stress level right there. There is also the benefit of being able to focus on things you’re really interested in rather than a whole platform of unrelated issues. And then there is the thrill of being able to accomplish some small things. It might not be the huge, sexy things like a carbon tax that you’ll never see. But riding my bike and composting and cleaning up the local river does offer some immediate tangible results and satisfaction. Speaking for myself, I’ll take the road less traveled.

Travis

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2020, 07:04:42 PM »

Isn't the American system basically set up to give a binary choice?  Which seems to allow the 2 parties to be more and more polarized.  In multi-party systems that much polarization would produce a third (or 4th or 5th) party to fill in the resulting gap.

It is a binary system, but not by design.  That we have a binary choice with no competition is because it favors those who are currently in power. If you want to see some real “bipartisanship” in action, look to what our two factions do whenever there is a threat from a minor faction. See how quickly they circle the wagons! They will do everything they can to co-opt that threat, introduce ballot access requirements, require petitions to get on the ballot, etc. We haven’t had a new major faction in the US since the mid 19th century. The duopoly is very good at preserving it’s power.

It is how you are set up. 
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=pol&document=index&dir=can/bck&lang=e

Last election my riding had 5 candidates, all members of the main recognized parties, plus 2 independents, a marxist-leninist, a communist, and a rhinocerous.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-vanier-federal-election-2019-1.5267820

Not by original design, no. The folks in the late 18th century did not intend for a corrupt duopoly to rule for 160 plus years.  At any point since the 1860’s the Powers That Be could have enacted a different electoral system, could have allowed for meaningful competition, could have allowed proportional representation or any of a galaxy of reforms. That they haven’t speaks volumes. Yet we’re supposed to show up and vote in a rigged system because that’ll somehow change things? Really? You have a better chance of winning at three card Monte than getting meaningful change through the ballot.

I need to find some books on the history of our parties.  I remember as a kid watching Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and reading about how at the time of its release a large part of Congress tried to have it banned because it was a little too on the nose.  If you've never seen it, it's a Jimmy Stewart movie where an idealistic nobody is appointed to Congress to fill a vacant seat and ends up getting railroaded because he accidentally runs afoul of a cabal of corrupt Congressmen trying to arrange a real estate deal.  The movie opens with a Congressman dying, and the leader of that state's party calls the governor in the middle of night and says "you will appoint [a known charlatan] to the seat."  He says "yes" like his feudal lord just gave an order.  I don't know if that's how the parties are run now, but apparently back then this was how business was done.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2020, 08:18:53 PM »

Isn't the American system basically set up to give a binary choice?  Which seems to allow the 2 parties to be more and more polarized.  In multi-party systems that much polarization would produce a third (or 4th or 5th) party to fill in the resulting gap.

It is a binary system, but not by design.  That we have a binary choice with no competition is because it favors those who are currently in power. If you want to see some real “bipartisanship” in action, look to what our two factions do whenever there is a threat from a minor faction. See how quickly they circle the wagons! They will do everything they can to co-opt that threat, introduce ballot access requirements, require petitions to get on the ballot, etc. We haven’t had a new major faction in the US since the mid 19th century. The duopoly is very good at preserving it’s power.

It is how you are set up. 
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=pol&document=index&dir=can/bck&lang=e

Last election my riding had 5 candidates, all members of the main recognized parties, plus 2 independents, a marxist-leninist, a communist, and a rhinocerous.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-vanier-federal-election-2019-1.5267820

Not by original design, no. The folks in the late 18th century did not intend for a corrupt duopoly to rule for 160 plus years.  At any point since the 1860’s the Powers That Be could have enacted a different electoral system, could have allowed for meaningful competition, could have allowed proportional representation or any of a galaxy of reforms. That they haven’t speaks volumes. Yet we’re supposed to show up and vote in a rigged system because that’ll somehow change things? Really? You have a better chance of winning at three card Monte than getting meaningful change through the ballot.

I need to find some books on the history of our parties.  I remember as a kid watching Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and reading about how at the time of its release a large part of Congress tried to have it banned because it was a little too on the nose.  If you've never seen it, it's a Jimmy Stewart movie where an idealistic nobody is appointed to Congress to fill a vacant seat and ends up getting railroaded because he accidentally runs afoul of a cabal of corrupt Congressmen trying to arrange a real estate deal.  The movie opens with a Congressman dying, and the leader of that state's party calls the governor in the middle of night and says "you will appoint [a known charlatan] to the seat."  He says "yes" like his feudal lord just gave an order.  I don't know if that's how the parties are run now, but apparently back then this was how business was done.
I've seen Mr. Smith. Fun movie. 

I have no idea about phone calls in the night.  It wouldn't surprise me. That's probably preferable to the sale of offices.  See Rod Blagojevich. 

LennStar

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2020, 11:55:42 PM »
Getting back to the OPs question,
btw. Am I the only one that had to laugh at the "how to get rid of Democracy in Democracy" question?

I will use this chance to once more say: Please, people, read the book! You know, Dictator's handbook. Everything that lurked in your subconciousness about abuse of power is explained in there.

Or at least watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to Stop "Re-election" Being the Driving Force of Democracy?
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2020, 02:43:49 PM »
Getting back to the OPs question,
btw. Am I the only one that had to laugh at the "how to get rid of Democracy in Democracy" question?

I will use this chance to once more say: Please, people, read the book! You know, Dictator's handbook. Everything that lurked in your subconciousness about abuse of power is explained in there.

Or at least watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

I skipped the book but watched the video. Not too bad, a bit simplistic especially with regards to blended regimes such as, say, Singapore. To say nothing of malevolent dictatorships that use elections as a front.

I do disagree with their “rule 0”. That’s likely because their definition of politics is wide while mine is relatively narrow. As far as I’m concerned (electoral) politics and voting is a fool’s game, at least for for the typical citizen. You will not get out of it what you put into it. You’re much better off spending the time and resources in a more productive endeavor.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!