How to prove Ram dealership caused this damage?

[NinjaSue]

Looking for some advice, thanks in advance!

Took the van to the Ram dealership for an oil change. They took photos of the vehicle during drop off.  I took 2 quick shots myself. Picked it up, drove straight home, and within a week noticed the awning was damaged. The awning was not damaged when I took it in.  Notified the Ram service manager. He has responded "Hello, This could not have happen here. My racks that can lift the vehicle are 9 inches wide and also have stoppers covered in foam at the top of them to keep this from happening." 
 
He shared the photos they took of my vehicle on drop off. The ones he shared with me did not include any of the awning.  He provided a photo of the lift. 

I have no experience to argue back other than to say it's clear to me it was damaged while at the shop.  Anyone else have a more technical explaination?  Signaling @Exflyboy @Dicey

First photo- My photo at drop off - undamaged awning.

Second photo - Photo of damage

[NinjaSue]

Photos of lift from Ram

[Exflyboy]

Ugh that's a bummer!

Your photos are a little hard to see for some reason but whether the cross bars are covered in from or not, the are still capable of pushing in a dent of they make contact.. They just probably wouldn't remove any paint.

The trouble of course is that you didn't notice the damage while at the dealership, so while its highly likely this cause caused by pushing the vehicle into some overhead structure while on the lift, the problem is proving it.

I'm not sure what they mean by 9 inches wide?.. Do they mean 9 inches wider than the van?.. Either way the damage is on the top (at least I assume it is as your pics don't open very well) so I don't see why this is relevant?

If its obvious where the damage came from you might drive the van down there and look at the lift and see how the damage as caused.. I.e what it hit while being lifted.

You might be able to persuade the manager to step up if it obvious perhaps.

[Exflyboy]

Another thought.. looking more closely at the pic, the "thing" that hit the awning is 5 inches wide (you can see two creases 5 inches apart. I bet the cross beam on the lift exactly matches the width between the creases.

If the van would have been on the lift such the top beam would have more or less lined up with the dent and it is 5 inches wide.. Well then its pretty obvious what caused it.

I suspect the deeper dent was caused by the foam covered conduit, but that flexed upwards as the awning pushed it.. the the smaller crease was from the back edge of the 5" wide beam.

So yeah I'd go back down there and point this out. If  the cross beam is not 5 inches wide then it wasn't caused by the lift... I'm sure the manager would be eager to prove their innocence..:)

[sonofsven]

I would go there in person with the vehicle so they can see it, and you can see it on the lift; retrace your steps, as it were.
I would think they would be pretty hesitant to admit to any negligence in writing without having looked at it first.
Look for paint transfer on the dent, too.

[Boll weevil]

By stopper, does the dealer mean a fixed bumper or do they mean it’s somehow wired to stop the lift when contact is made? If it’s the latter, I’d probably lean toward them not causing the damage.

If you do go to check the lift at the shop, keep an eye out for other lifts that may have been used. The shop’s procedures may say that a particular lift was supposed to be used and that’s the one you got pictures of, but I could see a mechanic using another (perhaps even undersized) lift if the designated lift is occupied and they’re trying to move work through as quickly as possible.

[cpa cat]

If they stonewall you, tell them you want the information for their insurance company so you can make an insurance claim against them for the damage.

Chances are, you're going to get a manager call just for asking. If you still get no resolution, you can actually make the claim and see if you can convince an insurance adjuster. You can use the suggestions in this post in your claim.

[NinjaSue]

Thanks everyone. I did have a difficult time uploading the photos. Good suggestions- I hadn't considered contacting their insurance but will try the in person route first. So I just called over there to make an appointment with the general manager. Monday at 2 p.m.  He was familiar with the situation - said the service manager I had been speaking with kept him in the loop.  He said there was only 3 lifts there that could have been used and the rail on top on all 3 is 9" wide they can't understand how the damage would be 5" wide.   

Is it possible that the vehicle isn't exactly level when lifted and it hit only a portion of the top rail?  I know with 100% certainty it wasn't damaged when I dropped it off!
 

[Boll weevil]

Maybe it’s the perspective of the shot, but your second photo makes it look like the awning is flush with the solar panels, in which case how’d they crunch the awning without hitting the panels on a horizontal bar.

On the other hand, notice in the shop’s 2nd picture that there’s a hose reel hanging from the ceiling… is that mounted in a way where it could possibly hit the van?

Also, did they run it through a car wash afterwards? The dealership where I get my car serviced includes a free wash and more than once it dislodged part of a roof seal on my car.

Edit: another thing you may want to ask about/pay attention to is the location of security cameras and whether they’d have footage during or after the service.

[Exflyboy]

Oh that's where the 9" wide came from.. Hmm it wasn't the top rail that caused that damage then.

[Dicey]

Mr. Dicey says to have the dealer pull up their security cameras. They should show the condition of the van when you brought it in. Alternately, if you have security cameras at home, you could do the same thing. Act fast, as they typically don't keep the films long.

He instantly said the damage looked like it was from a lift.

Sorry this happened to you, but stay strong. You know you're in the right. Consider calling the local equivalent of ABC's "Seven on your Side" for additional assistance if the dealer balks. Let them know you're going to do it. And document the shit out of everything.

[Dicey]

Sorry if you mentioned this, but have you checked each solar panel? Asking for a friend.

[NinjaSue]

So met with the manager. Disregard the photos they sent of the lift with the 9" beam at the top. They are saying it was put into this lift that has no cross bar.  The only thing it could've hit is this beam with conduit.  The damage matches but the van would've had to have been in the rear most position on the lift itself.  Shop continues to deny - don't know how this happened?? shrug shrug.
I've written an email showing the photo undamaged on drop off, the beam, how the damage seemingly lines up with the beam.
If they continue to deny, I plan to file a claim with their insurance and then small claims if necessary. Ultimately, I can prove it wasn't damaged when it went it, so is it on me to prove how it happened? 

[RWD]

Wouldn't you file a claim with your insurance and tell them who to go after?

[Dicey]

Wouldn't you file a claim with your insurance and tell them who to go after?

Oh, hell, no. Why file a claim on your insurance and risk rate increases when the dealer can fix their own damn damage. So smart of you to take photos, NS(+100).

[RWD]

Wouldn't you file a claim with your insurance and tell them who to go after?

Oh, hell, no. Why file a claim on your insurance and risk rate increases when the dealer can fix their own damn damage. So smart of you to take photos, NS(+100).

Because if you go directly to their insurance it will be just you against their army of lawyers. If you use your own insurance it will be your insurance's army of lawyers versus the shop's insurance's army of lawyers.

I suppose you can always fall back to your own insurance later if you can't get them to play ball.

[merula]

Because if you go directly to their insurance it will be just you against their army of lawyers. If you use your own insurance it will be your insurance's army of lawyers versus the shop's insurance's army of lawyers.

The technical insurance term for this is subrogation. You report to your insurance company, they pay you for the damage (minus your deductible), and then they subrogate against those actually responsible. When they recover for the damage, they pay you back your deductible.

Now, this requires that you have physical damage coverage on your Auto policy, and not everyone does, but it can be very effective. Your insurance company is incentivized to want to keep you as a customer. The dealership's insurance company DGAF.

The other option, now that you know that's a possibility, is to raise it to your dealership that you're going to report the damage to your insurance company, and in doing that you ask for the carrier and policy number for their "Garagekeepers Liability Policy". The dealership may be more incentivized to keep this out of insurance if they think claims will raise their premiums.

I suppose you can always fall back to your own insurance later if you can't get them to play ball.

If this is your plan, check your policy. There may be a requirement around prompt claim reporting, but that's highly state-specific on personal auto policies.

[NinjaSue]

So I sent my email and asked for their insurance info if he wasn’t in a position to accept responsibility. The manager responded by denying the damage still- that the lift wouldn’t work if it were that far back and it would be dangerous for the employee but as as good will gesture, he will have his dent repair guy take a look at it to see if there is something he can do. 
So, Friday appointment set. We’re looking to leave town soon so if we can get the van fixed before we leave that would be nice.
I think having the photo showing no damage at drop off helped, so will def continue doing that in the future. Although when I noticed the damage at home a week later, I should’ve taken a photo of my mileage to prove I went straight home from the shop.

[Dicey]

So I sent my email and asked for their insurance info if he wasn’t in a position to accept responsibility. The manager responded by denying the damage still- that the lift wouldn’t work if it were that far back and it would be dangerous for the employee but as as good will gesture, he will have his dent repair guy take a look at it to see if there is something he can do. 
So, Friday appointment set. We’re looking to leave town soon so if we can get the van fixed before we leave that would be nice.
I think having the photo showing no damage at drop off helped, so will def continue doing that in the future. Although when I noticed the damage at home a week later, I should’ve taken a photo of my mileage to prove I went straight home from the shop.

Fingers crossed.

[NinjaSue]

Update- Friday - Ram's in-house dent repair guy said he couldn't fix it.  The manager relayed a message that he would call another dent guy to see if he could repair it. 
I sent a follow up email on monday with a quote I got from an RV awning repair guy.  He called me and said to go ahead and book inspection based on the quote.
When I called to schedule the RV Awning repair, I asked if the repairman had actually looked at the photos I had sent to for an opinion if it might be repairable.  They responded that the awning repair guy might be able to unclog it but would not be able to repair the dent and if I want it to be aesthetic and functional as it was, I should probably have it replaced.
I've sent a follow up email now to the Ram manager asking how he'd like to proceed.
Re: question above about insurance. I'd rather not file a claim with my own policy or pay a deductible. I used to work in auto insurance, subrogation in fact, so am familiar with the process. I think I can advocate on my behalf better than any adjuster. 
Thanks everyone for your responses!

[GilesMM]

Smart thinking to keep your insurer out of it if at all possible.  Sounds like things are moving forward! I would have had them put it on the lift and match up the dent to their lift for a “glove fit” test.

[Exflyboy]

If all else fails.. Can the roller be removed from the housing easily to provide access to the back side of the dents?

I have knocked out a lot of dents in my quest to become the ultimate cheap-azz vehicle owner.. Many of them actually worked!

If it can be taken apart I'd be happy to apply the hide-hammer treatment at MOAB 25.

I lost my faithful hide-hammer a number of years back and I'm looking for an excuse to buy another one..:)

[NinjaSue]

Update- manager responded that his preferred body shop thinks they can repair it, so we will be taking the van there tomorrow. Hope so!
Thanks for the offer @Exflyboy , appreciate your input!