How much will non-vaxxing by GOP reduce the population of voting age republicans

[DadJokes]

Not according to the pilots union.

https://www.newsweek.com/southwest-airlines-cancellations-pilot-vaccine-mandate-1637440

That's good news, thanks

[dandarc]

So you gonna reset your bullshit detector? Because "it came from conservative media / politicians" should lead to "assume it is false", as was the case here.

[DadJokes]

So you gonna reset your bullshit detector? Because "it came from conservative media / politicians" should lead to "assume it is false", as was the case here.

My source was CNN, which has reports from the FAA that it's not related to air traffic control issues. The only source Newsweek has is the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association.

I don't have any reason to trust one source more than the other.

Are you going to reset your attitude in that response?

[HPstache]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

[former player]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

Having a transplant means taking immune suppressing drugs for life.  Getting a covid vaccine before starting a lifelong immuno-suppressing regime makes sense to me.

Also, transplant organs are usually in short supply, which means they are rationed.  Makes sense for them to go to people most likely to live long enough to get the best use out of them.

[Fish Sweet]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

Same reason it doesn't make sense to recommend an organ transplant for a person who declares themselves wholly unwilling to take immunosuppressant drugs afterward for whatever reason (ie. 'my body my choice' or 'God hates big pharma' or 'I don't believe in organ rejection' or what have you.)

Last I heard, the organ waitlist for certain transplants is many, many years long. Why transplant an organ to a person who's made it clear they're unwilling to follow the most basic of steps to make sure the transplant is successful?

[Davnasty]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

Based on your question, is it safe to assume you disagree?

There are other vaccines already required by some organ transplant centers like hep B and flu vaccine. Do you disagree with those requirements as well or only the covid vaccine?

[Sibley]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

Yes it does.

If you're an alcoholic who destroys your liver, and you won't get treatment and stop drinking, then no, I'm not wasting a perfectly good donor liver on you. Is it unfortunate for you? Yes. But that was your choice. You are free to make that choice, but you are also subject to the consequences of your choice. Don't like the consequences - change the decision.

[talltexan]

If you crunch the numbers based on US vital statistics, the death rate for the average American has increased by 10%-20% (this obviously changes conditional on age and other risk factors).

If you're evaluating a patient for an organ transplant, surely there are gigantic risk factors that would dwarf that marginal increase. While I encourage all of you to vaccinate to the degree that is medically appropriate, I can see why the personal* health gain from the vaccine doesn't look especially large.

*Personal safety from the vaccine is obviously different than *public safety

[MudPuppy]

Those other risk factors are a big part of why the vaccine is important for transplant patients. There’s a lot of risk that can’t be controlled much or at all, but getting a vaccine is a huge win with very little risk or effort.

[HPstache]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

Based on your question, is it safe to assume you disagree?

There are other vaccines already required by some organ transplant centers like hep B and flu vaccine. Do you disagree with those requirements as well or only the covid vaccine?

If the flu vaccine is actually required to receive an organ donation, I guess I'm good with it to require a COVID-19 vaccine, is it true though?  At face value it feels like it's in the same territory as people who think hospitals should not treat the unvaccinated... their choice, now let 'em die!  Just seems like a weird thing to deny someone a life saving organ if they are not vaccinated for something that is generally not life threatening like the flu or Covid-19.   There are so many people here who openly say they don't get the flu vaccine... guess no organs for you!  Saying this as a person who got his first dose on the first day it was available, and get the flu vaccine every year, so definitely not an anti-vaxxer.

[RetiredAt63]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

Based on your question, is it safe to assume you disagree?

There are other vaccines already required by some organ transplant centers like hep B and flu vaccine. Do you disagree with those requirements as well or only the covid vaccine?

If the flu vaccine is actually required to receive an organ donation, I guess I'm good with it to require a COVID-19 vaccine, is it true though?  At face value it feels like it's in the same territory as people who think hospitals should not treat the unvaccinated... their choice, now let 'em die!  Just seems like a weird thing to deny someone a life saving organ if they are not vaccinated for something that is generally not life threatening like the flu or Covid-19.   There are so many people here who openly say they don't get the flu vaccine... guess no organs for you!  Saying this as a person who got his first dose on the first day it was available, and get the flu vaccine every year, so definitely not an anti-vaxxer.

Not a doctor, but organs are rare relative to people who need them.  So if I had 3 people who were all good candidates for a specific organ I would pick the person most likely to survive for a good chunk of time.

Too bad more people don't sign their organ donor cards.

[HPstache]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

Based on your question, is it safe to assume you disagree?

There are other vaccines already required by some organ transplant centers like hep B and flu vaccine. Do you disagree with those requirements as well or only the covid vaccine?

If the flu vaccine is actually required to receive an organ donation, I guess I'm good with it to require a COVID-19 vaccine, is it true though?  At face value it feels like it's in the same territory as people who think hospitals should not treat the unvaccinated... their choice, now let 'em die!  Just seems like a weird thing to deny someone a life saving organ if they are not vaccinated for something that is generally not life threatening like the flu or Covid-19.   There are so many people here who openly say they don't get the flu vaccine... guess no organs for you!  Saying this as a person who got his first dose on the first day it was available, and get the flu vaccine every year, so definitely not an anti-vaxxer.

Not a doctor, but organs are rare relative to people who need them.  So if I had 3 people who were all good candidates for a specific organ I would pick the person most likely to survive for a good chunk of time.

Too bad more people don't sign their organ donor cards.

I agree with this, and I know that the liver transplant list is absolutely sorted by an algorithm to determine who most deserves a transplant.  What I am not sure I agree with is something like a covid-19 vaccine being a requirement unless there actually is a requirement for something similar like the flu vaccine... it seems a little silly.  As I mentioned before, there are SO MANY people who don't get their flu vaccines and use similar reasoning to justify not getting it as those who are not interested in getting the Covid Vaccine.   Really, they are going to be denied an organ because they performed an adult risk analysis regarding the danger of contracting the flu?  There also is a difference, I feel, between not getting a donation because you are not vaccinated for XYZ at the time the organ is available and refusing to be vaccinated for XYZ before the procedure.  From a quick Google search, it seems like the former, when I'd prefer it to be the latter.  Yes, I am an organ donor.

[Metalcat]

I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/05/uchealth-transplant-unvaccinated/

At least one hospital system is requiring COVID vaccination for transplants. It makes sense. There aren't enough organs available for donations to start with, why would you risk giving one to an anti-vaxxer?

That makes sense to you?

Based on your question, is it safe to assume you disagree?

There are other vaccines already required by some organ transplant centers like hep B and flu vaccine. Do you disagree with those requirements as well or only the covid vaccine?

If the flu vaccine is actually required to receive an organ donation, I guess I'm good with it to require a COVID-19 vaccine, is it true though?  At face value it feels like it's in the same territory as people who think hospitals should not treat the unvaccinated... their choice, now let 'em die!  Just seems like a weird thing to deny someone a life saving organ if they are not vaccinated for something that is generally not life threatening like the flu or Covid-19.   There are so many people here who openly say they don't get the flu vaccine... guess no organs for you!  Saying this as a person who got his first dose on the first day it was available, and get the flu vaccine every year, so definitely not an anti-vaxxer.

Not a doctor, but organs are rare relative to people who need them.  So if I had 3 people who were all good candidates for a specific organ I would pick the person most likely to survive for a good chunk of time.

Too bad more people don't sign their organ donor cards.

I agree with this, and I know that the liver transplant list is absolutely sorted by an algorithm to determine who most deserves a transplant.  What I am not sure I agree with is something like a covid-19 vaccine being a requirement unless there actually is a requirement for something similar like the flu vaccine... it seems a little silly.  As I mentioned before, there are SO MANY people who don't get their flu vaccines and use similar reasoning to justify not getting it as those who are not interested in getting the Covid Vaccine.   Really, they are going to be denied an organ because they performed an adult risk analysis regarding the danger of contracting the flu?  There also is a difference, I feel, between not getting a donation because you are not vaccinated for XYZ at the time the organ is available and refusing to be vaccinated for XYZ before the procedure.  From a quick Google search, it seems like the former, when I'd prefer it to be the latter.  Yes, I am an organ donor.

The organ recipient list is not organized according to who is the most deserving, it's organized by who is the most urgent and most likely to survive.

Also, Abe already explained that a liver would not be withheld from a patient even if they were a raging alcoholic. If that liver isn't needed for someone else, the alcoholic will get it.

There's a HUGE difference between triaging a list for organ recipients according to need and projected outcome and denying people care because they've been irresponsible.

If that was the reality then no one who fails to floss would ever be entitled to a filling.

[former player]

I would have thought by now that it was fairly clear that covid-19 and flu are different diseases with different levels of risk, the risks of covid being considerably higher.  And that the covid-19 vaccines are more effective than flu vaccines.  With the result that trying to use flu vaccine as a proxy for covid vaccine is basically meaningless.

[Fish Sweet]

If the flu vaccine is actually required to receive an organ donation, I guess I'm good with it to require a COVID-19 vaccine, is it true though?  At face value it feels like it's in the same territory as people who think hospitals should not treat the unvaccinated... their choice, now let 'em die!  Just seems like a weird thing to deny someone a life saving organ if they are not vaccinated for something that is generally not life threatening like the flu or Covid-19.   There are so many people here who openly say they don't get the flu vaccine... guess no organs for you!  Saying this as a person who got his first dose on the first day it was available, and get the flu vaccine every year, so definitely not an anti-vaxxer.

Ah, that makes sense.  While I personally have some choice words for people who choose not to get vaccinated and then clog up the hospitals sick with COVID, I am definitely not in the 'let 'em die' camp.

To me, organ transplant is different because of the wait times for many transplant organs and all the medical preparation (pre and post) needed to make sure the transplant goes through. If someone refused point blank to do as their doctors recommended in preparation for a transplant (take the appropriate meds, get the recommended vaccines, stop drinking & taking drugs, go through appropriate testing procedures to make sure the organ was compatible) I would say 'No organ for you until you do those things!'

I acknowledge that I say this as someone with extremely limited medical knowledge, but I don't think it's an unreasonable stance. Especially if the end goal is to have successful organ transplants with relatively healthy patients who are able to live longer and happier lives as a result.

[HPstache]

I recognize that "deserving" was the wrong word, but "most urgent and likely to survive" is what I meant even though I chose the wrong word... I watched a Forensic Files episode and this list/algorithm was the subject of the episode so I consider myself to be an expert on the matter.  (joke)

As I said earlier, if someone can show me that flu vaccine is a requirement for an organ transplant I'll say that so should a Covid Vaccine... they feel similar enough to me (even though Covid is more dangerous for most) that there was already a precedent set for something like that.  If it's not true than it really just feels like people making up new rules to make people "pay" for not sharing their stance on the current hot button issue.

[Metalcat]

I recognize that "deserving" was the wrong word, but "most urgent and likely to survive" is what I meant even though I chose the wrong word... I watched a Forensic Files episode and this list/algorithm was the subject of the episode so I consider myself to be an expert on the matter.  (joke)

As I said earlier, if someone can show me that flu vaccine is a requirement for an organ transplant I'll say that so should a Covid Vaccine... they feel similar enough to me (even though Covid is more dangerous for most) that there was already a precedent set for something like that.  If it's not true than it really just feels like people making up new rules to make people "pay" for not sharing their stance on the current hot button issue.

Covid and seasonal flu are wildly different. Just down to the blood clot risk alone with respect to transplanted organs. Then there's the added factor that some flu shots are made with live viruses, which are sometimes contraindicated for some transplant recipients.

Besides, there's what you are perceiving to be some lay people's sentiment towards people who refuse the covid vaccine, and then there's how medicine actually works, which Abe has done an excellent job of explaining to people, so I really don't need to go over it again.

So this weird false equivalence between whether or not the flu shot is actually required for transplant patients and whether or not a lay person thinks an organ should or shouldn't be given to people who refuse the covid vaccine, really have nothing to do with each other.

One is a question of actual medicine and the other is an issue you are taking with random people's opinions.

So far, I've only seen one actual doctor come into this debate and talk about boots on the ground reality of making decisions for actual patients, and he was actually against withholding treatment from patients who refuse the vaccine.

[FIPurpose]

I recognize that "deserving" was the wrong word, but "most urgent and likely to survive" is what I meant even though I chose the wrong word... I watched a Forensic Files episode and this list/algorithm was the subject of the episode so I consider myself to be an expert on the matter.  (joke)

As I said earlier, if someone can show me that flu vaccine is a requirement for an organ transplant I'll say that so should a Covid Vaccine... they feel similar enough to me (even though Covid is more dangerous for most) that there was already a precedent set for something like that.  If it's not true than it really just feels like people making up new rules to make people "pay" for not sharing their stance on the current hot button issue.

Requirements to get on the receiver list are done by the hospital. There are no universal rules to getting on the list. If a hospital feels that you are too risky based on whatever reasons, they can decline to put you on the transplant list. A person is free to go to another hospital, but these determinations are not nationally mandated or recommended. These are decisions that will be different from hospital to hospital.

What's happening is that some hospitals are out right refusing transplants for refusing the vaccine, others will bump you down the list, but most don't have any policy on it.

As of late April, fewer than 7% of transplant programs nationwide reported inactivating patients who were unvaccinated or partially vaccinated against covid, according to research by Dr. Krista Lentine, a nephrologist at the Saint Louis University School of Medicine.

UCHealth in Denver began requiring covid vaccinations for transplant patients in late August, citing the American Society of Transplantation's August recommendation that "all solid organ transplant recipients should be vaccinated against SARS-CoV-2."

Patients who undergo transplant surgery have their immune systems artificially suppressed during recovery, to keep their bodies from rejecting the new organ. That leaves unvaccinated transplant patients at "extreme risk" of severe illness if they are infected by covid, with mortality rates estimated at 20% to 30%, depending on the study, Dan Weaver, a spokesperson for UCHealth said. For the same reason, transplant patients who receive covid vaccines after surgery may fail to mount a strong immune response, research shows.

UW Medicine in Seattle began mandating covid vaccines this summer, said Dr. Ajit Limaye, director of the solid organ transplant infectious diseases program. Patients were already required to meet other stringent criteria to be considered for transplantation, including receiving inoculations against several illnesses, such as hepatitis B and influenza.

"We mandate hepatitis and influenza vaccines, and nobody has an issue with that," he said. "And now we have this one vaccination that can save lives and make an impact on the post-transplant recovery phase. And we have this huge uproar from the public."
Nearly 107,000 candidates are waiting for organs in the U.S.; dozens die each day still waiting. Transplant centers evaluate which patients are allowed to be placed on the national list, taking into account medical criteria and other factors like financial means and social support to ensure that donor organs won't fail.

Eventually, Patel said, he thinks nearly all transplant programs will mandate covid vaccination, largely because transplant centers are evaluated on the longer-term survival of their patients.

"I think it's going to spread like wildfire across the country," he said. "If you start losing patients in a year due to covid, it will be mandated sooner rather than later.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/08/health/organ-transplant-vaccine-khn-partner/index.html

[HPstache]

I would have thought by now that it was fairly clear that covid-19 and flu are different diseases with different levels of risk, the risks of covid being considerably higher.  And that the covid-19 vaccines are more effective than flu vaccines.  With the result that trying to use flu vaccine as a proxy for covid vaccine is basically meaningless.

I feel like this was a super popular thing to say about a year / year and a half ago, but the similarities to the flu are definitely there now... time to re-assess jumping into conversations to point this out. 

Different diseases?  Yes, everyone knows that.  Enough similarities to use them when comparing / contrasting human behaviors, risks, etc.? I personally think so.

[Metalcat]

I would have thought by now that it was fairly clear that covid-19 and flu are different diseases with different levels of risk, the risks of covid being considerably higher.  And that the covid-19 vaccines are more effective than flu vaccines.  With the result that trying to use flu vaccine as a proxy for covid vaccine is basically meaningless.

I feel like this was a super popular thing to say about a year / year and a half ago, but the similarities to the flu are definitely there now... time to re-assess jumping into conversations to point this out. 

Different diseases?  Yes, everyone knows that.  Enough similarities to use them when comparing / contrasting human behaviors, risks, etc.? I personally think so.

You're entitled to think that. A lot of medical professionals don't.

[nereo]

I would have thought by now that it was fairly clear that covid-19 and flu are different diseases with different levels of risk, the risks of covid being considerably higher.  And that the covid-19 vaccines are more effective than flu vaccines.  With the result that trying to use flu vaccine as a proxy for covid vaccine is basically meaningless.

I feel like this was a super popular thing to say about a year / year and a half ago, but the similarities to the flu are definitely there now... time to re-assess jumping into conversations to point this out. 

Different diseases?  Yes, everyone knows that.  Enough similarities to use them when comparing / contrasting human behaviors, risks, etc.? I personally think so.

Well if we’re going to make comparisons between pathogens, one might as well say there are similarities between Covid and the tuberculosis or meningitis. They each share a few things but clearly not the same.

[ChpBstrd]

Four times as many law enforcement officers died from C19 than died from gunshot wounds in 2020.

https://nleomf.org/memorial/facts-figures/officer-fatality-data/causes-of-law-enforcement-deaths/

Yet their vaccination rate is very low in most places.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/us/police-covid-vaccines.html

If they could only wear one thing on their shift tonight, how many police officers would choose a mask over their bullet resistant vest? The numbers say the mask is more likely to save your life. And if these folks are "doing their own research" on social media, how can we trust them to discern the truth in criminal investigations?

[PDXTabs]

I would have thought by now that it was fairly clear that covid-19 and flu are different diseases with different levels of risk, the risks of covid being considerably higher.  And that the covid-19 vaccines are more effective than flu vaccines.  With the result that trying to use flu vaccine as a proxy for covid vaccine is basically meaningless.

I feel like this was a super popular thing to say about a year / year and a half ago, but the similarities to the flu are definitely there now... time to re-assess jumping into conversations to point this out. 

Different diseases?  Yes, everyone knows that.  Enough similarities to use them when comparing / contrasting human behaviors, risks, etc.? I personally think so.

You're entitled to think that. A lot of medical professionals don't.

I'm not a medical professional, but I'm pretty sure that I remember medical professionals comparing COVID-19 to the 1918 influenza pandemic early in 2020. I think that it is pretty obvious that it was the best comparison anyone could come up with in history for a respiratory virus.

Also, thank the gods that it wasn't a very good comparison. The 1918 flu mostly killed people young children, people aged 25-34, (and the very old). But how many very old people were there in the world in 1918? Anyway, my recollection of events in early 2020 was that it was the only comparison anyone could make, but as we learned more it quickly became obvious that although it might be the best analogy of a global viral pandemic that we had in the history books it wasn't a good analogy for SARS-CoV-2. But they absolutely both had surges (at least in the UK), see above article.

As a slight aside, some people now believe that the 1889-1890 "flu" pandemic was actually a Coronavirus, but we have worse historical records for that time-period.

[Metalcat]

I would have thought by now that it was fairly clear that covid-19 and flu are different diseases with different levels of risk, the risks of covid being considerably higher.  And that the covid-19 vaccines are more effective than flu vaccines.  With the result that trying to use flu vaccine as a proxy for covid vaccine is basically meaningless.

I feel like this was a super popular thing to say about a year / year and a half ago, but the similarities to the flu are definitely there now... time to re-assess jumping into conversations to point this out. 

Different diseases?  Yes, everyone knows that.  Enough similarities to use them when comparing / contrasting human behaviors, risks, etc.? I personally think so.

You're entitled to think that. A lot of medical professionals don't.

I'm not a medical professional, but I'm pretty sure that I remember medical professionals comparing COVID-19 to the 1918 influenza pandemic early in 2020. I think that it is pretty obvious that it was the best comparison anyone could come up with in history for a respiratory virus.

Also, thank the gods that it wasn't a very good comparison. The 1918 flu mostly killed people young children, people aged 25-34, (and the very old). But how many very old people were there in the world in 1918? Anyway, my recollection of events in early 2020 was that it was the only comparison anyone could make, but as we learned more it quickly became obvious that although it might be the best analogy of a global viral pandemic that we had in the history books it wasn't a good analogy for SARS-CoV-2. But they absolutely both had surges (at least in the UK), see above article.

As a slight aside, some people now believe that the 1889-1890 "flu" pandemic was actually a Coronavirus, but we have worse historical records for that time-period.

I don't at all understand what your point is in response to my post.

Covid isn't very comparable to much that we have records for, that doesn't mean that it *is* comparable to seasonal flu.

I'm so confused.

[ChpBstrd]

Covid isn't very comparable to much that we have records for, that doesn't mean that it *is* comparable to seasonal flu.

Indeed!

"Don't worry guys, COVID-19 is just the Spanish flu!"

Things are only as dangerous as the names we give them. See, I just called it the flu and now it's no biggie.

[PDXTabs]

Covid isn't very comparable to much that we have records for, that doesn't mean that it *is* comparable to seasonal flu.

Indeed!

"Don't worry guys, COVID-19 is just the Spanish flu!"

I never compared COVID to the seasonal flu nor did I say not to worry nor did I say that it was just the "Spanish flu." In fact I wrote "thank the gods that it wasn't a very good comparison." Don't put words in my mouth.

[PDXTabs]

What was the point of your post, though?

I was replying to a thread between former player, v8rx7guy, and Malcat about the relative similarities and difference between the COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2 pandemic and influenza. I thought that it was pretty clear reading the whole thread top to bottom, left to right, that I was simultaneously agree with some of the points that they had made while disagreeing with others. But perhaps I wasn't clear somehow.

[Metalcat]

Covid isn't very comparable to much that we have records for, that doesn't mean that it *is* comparable to seasonal flu.

Indeed!

"Don't worry guys, COVID-19 is just the Spanish flu!"

I never compared COVID to the seasonal flu nor did I say not to worry nor did I say that it was just the "Spanish flu." In fact I wrote "thank the gods that it wasn't a very good comparison." Don't put words in my mouth.

That's not what I thought you said. I don't understand what you were trying to say.

It seemed like what you were trying to say was that because some medical professionals compared covid to the Spanish flu and that wasn't terribly accurate, that it's somehow less valid that they don't tend to equate it to the seasonal flu.

...or something like that, as I said, it was confusing.

[PDXTabs]

That's not what I thought you said. I don't understand what you were trying to say.

It seemed like what you were trying to say was that because some medical professionals compared covid to the Spanish flu and that wasn't terribly accurate, that it's somehow less valid that they don't tend to equate it to the seasonal flu.

...or something like that, as I said, it was confusing.

I would suggest that you simply read the words that I wrote in the order that I wrote them and take them for what they are, no more or less with no hidden meaning.

With that said, perhaps I will try to put it this way: comparing pandemic coronavirus to pandemic influenza is an imperfect analogy, but not without any merit, and medical professionals absolutely do it:

Medical historian compares the coronavirus to the 1918 flu pandemic: Both were highly political
COVID-19: a comparison to the 1918 influenza and how we can defeat it
Harvard expert compares 1918 flu, COVID-19
Comparing COVID-19 and the 1918–19 influenza pandemics in the United Kingdom

[Metalcat]

That's not what I thought you said. I don't understand what you were trying to say.

It seemed like what you were trying to say was that because some medical professionals compared covid to the Spanish flu and that wasn't terribly accurate, that it's somehow less valid that they don't tend to equate it to the seasonal flu.

...or something like that, as I said, it was confusing.

I would suggest that you simply read the words that I wrote in the order that I wrote them and take them for what they are, no more or less with no hidden meaning.

With that said, perhaps I will try to put it this way: comparing pandemic coronavirus to pandemic influenza is an imperfect analogy, but not without any merit, and medical professionals absolutely do it:

Medical historian compares the coronavirus to the 1918 flu pandemic: Both were highly political
COVID-19: a comparison to the 1918 influenza and how we can defeat it
Harvard expert compares 1918 flu, COVID-19
Comparing COVID-19 and the 1918–19 influenza pandemics in the United Kingdom

I read it multiple times, I understand the content of your post, but for the life of me I can't make sense of it in response to what I wrote. All I wrote was that many medical professionals *don't* think that covid and seasonal flu are reasonably comparable when a pp said that they are.

But really, it's not that big a deal if I don't understand.

[PDXTabs]

That's not what I thought you said. I don't understand what you were trying to say.

It seemed like what you were trying to say was that because some medical professionals compared covid to the Spanish flu and that wasn't terribly accurate, that it's somehow less valid that they don't tend to equate it to the seasonal flu.

...or something like that, as I said, it was confusing.

I would suggest that you simply read the words that I wrote in the order that I wrote them and take them for what they are, no more or less with no hidden meaning.

With that said, perhaps I will try to put it this way: comparing pandemic coronavirus to pandemic influenza is an imperfect analogy, but not without any merit, and medical professionals absolutely do it:

Medical historian compares the coronavirus to the 1918 flu pandemic: Both were highly political
COVID-19: a comparison to the 1918 influenza and how we can defeat it
Harvard expert compares 1918 flu, COVID-19
Comparing COVID-19 and the 1918–19 influenza pandemics in the United Kingdom

I read it multiple times, I understand the content of your post, but for the life of me I can't make sense of it in response to what I wrote. All I wrote was that many medical professionals *don't* think that covid and seasonal flu are reasonably comparable when a pp said that they are.

But really, it's not that big a deal if I don't understand.

No one in the thread that I responded to wrote "seasonal." I thought that the obvious implication was that we were comparing pandemic flu to pandemic coronavirus. Perhaps that is some of the confusion. Obviously, in my mind, you shouldn't compare the seasonal flu to SARS-CoV-2, except perhaps to say "hey guys this is so much worse!!!" You should compare seasonal flu to non-novel coronaviruses like the common cold.

[Metalcat]

That's not what I thought you said. I don't understand what you were trying to say.

It seemed like what you were trying to say was that because some medical professionals compared covid to the Spanish flu and that wasn't terribly accurate, that it's somehow less valid that they don't tend to equate it to the seasonal flu.

...or something like that, as I said, it was confusing.

I would suggest that you simply read the words that I wrote in the order that I wrote them and take them for what they are, no more or less with no hidden meaning.

With that said, perhaps I will try to put it this way: comparing pandemic coronavirus to pandemic influenza is an imperfect analogy, but not without any merit, and medical professionals absolutely do it:

Medical historian compares the coronavirus to the 1918 flu pandemic: Both were highly political
COVID-19: a comparison to the 1918 influenza and how we can defeat it
Harvard expert compares 1918 flu, COVID-19
Comparing COVID-19 and the 1918–19 influenza pandemics in the United Kingdom

I read it multiple times, I understand the content of your post, but for the life of me I can't make sense of it in response to what I wrote. All I wrote was that many medical professionals *don't* think that covid and seasonal flu are reasonably comparable when a pp said that they are.

But really, it's not that big a deal if I don't understand.

No one in the thread that I responded to wrote "seasonal." I thought that the obvious implication was that we were comparing pandemic flu to pandemic coronavirus. Perhaps that is some of the confusion. Obviously, in my mind, you shouldn't compare the seasonal flu to SARS-CoV-2, except perhaps to say "hey guys this is so much worse!!!" You should compare seasonal flu to non-novel coronaviruses like the common cold.

I was responding to someone who had been specifically talking about annual flu shots. They were saying that covid now is basically the same as the seasonal flu.

If that wasn't clear to you, then it makes sense that your response made no sense to me, because that was the context I was responding to.

[RetiredAt63]

This is in some ways comparable to the Spanish Flu pandemic.  I found this about Canadian deaths

Out of Canada’s population of eight million, fifty thousand died from the flu, an enormous death toll in just a few months. In contrast, sixty-thousand Canadians died in the four years of World War I.
https://www.canadashistory.ca/explore/arts-culture-society/killer-flu

It's personal for my family, my Dad and his brother were orphaned at a young age, both parents died in that pandemic.

Sadly the western provinces seem to have reacted better then than they are now.

[PDXTabs]

I was responding to someone who had been specifically talking about annual flu shots. They were saying that covid now is basically the same as the seasonal flu.

If that wasn't clear to you, then it makes sense that your response made no sense to me, because that was the context I was responding to.

Well, it was clear to me that we were talking about annual flu vaccines, since we didn't have them in 1918. But it isn't clear to me that v8rx7guy was wildly off when he wrote "time to re-assess jumping into conversations to point this out." To be clear I do not yet agree with him, but the 1918 flu went from being pandemic in 1918 to being endemic by 1921. So pretty soon we could be to that point with this pandemic too.

[Metalcat]

Yeah...I'm still not really following the logic of the response, but as I said before. I don't need any of this to make sense.

[PDXTabs]

It's personal for my family, my Dad and his brother were orphaned at a young age, both parents died in that pandemic.

Mine too. So far we've lost more to the 1918 pandemic than this one. Of course we didn't have any vaccines back then.

[Kris]

It's personal for my family, my Dad and his brother were orphaned at a young age, both parents died in that pandemic.

Mine too. So far we've lost more to the 1918 pandemic than this one. Of course we didn't have any vaccines back then.

Apparently not.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-covid-19-pandemic-is-considered-the-deadliest-in-american-history-as-death-toll-surpasses-1918-estimates-180978748/

[Sugaree]

I can't speak to the flu vaccine requirement, but the person who got my BFF's husband's kidney had both shots plus the booster and still almost died from Covid.  I can't imagine how bad it would have been if he hadn't been vaccinated. 

Given the waitlist for organs, I've got no problem prioritizing someone who is likely to get the most use out of one. 

[PDXTabs]

It's personal for my family, my Dad and his brother were orphaned at a young age, both parents died in that pandemic.

Mine too. So far we've lost more to the 1918 pandemic than this one. Of course we didn't have any vaccines back then.

Apparently not.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-covid-19-pandemic-is-considered-the-deadliest-in-american-history-as-death-toll-surpasses-1918-estimates-180978748/

I was only in reference to my family. I have lost more blood relatives to the 1918 pandemic than COVID-19. But since you posted the article it seems only obvious to point out the very first line: But national population numbers have tripled since then. Influenza killed one in 150 Americans, while one in 500 people have died from the coronavirus.

[nereo]

...so far.

[Kris]

It's personal for my family, my Dad and his brother were orphaned at a young age, both parents died in that pandemic.

Mine too. So far we've lost more to the 1918 pandemic than this one. Of course we didn't have any vaccines back then.

Apparently not.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-covid-19-pandemic-is-considered-the-deadliest-in-american-history-as-death-toll-surpasses-1918-estimates-180978748/

I was only in reference to my family. I have lost more blood relatives to the 1918 pandemic than COVID-19. But since you posted the article it seems only obvious to point out the very first line: But national population numbers have tripled since then. Influenza killed one in 150 Americans, while one in 500 people have died from the coronavirus.

Ah, got it. I didn't catch that you were saying only in reference to your family.

And yes, fair point about the population numbers then vs. now.

[talltexan]

Allen West--who is running for governor in Texas--appears to have missed the memo that leaders are supposed to quietly receive the vaccine even while they discourage their supporters from receiving it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiSyan5zsrzAhWtpnIEHaquCSoQFnoECAUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Fnews-and-politics%2F2021%2F10%2Fallen-west-unvaccinated-hospitalized-covid-coronavirus.html&usg=AOvVaw23kDip_cbft1mdOXPLxJQu

[Samuel]

It's personal for my family, my Dad and his brother were orphaned at a young age, both parents died in that pandemic.

Mine too. So far we've lost more to the 1918 pandemic than this one. Of course we didn't have any vaccines back then.

Apparently not.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-covid-19-pandemic-is-considered-the-deadliest-in-american-history-as-death-toll-surpasses-1918-estimates-180978748/

I was only in reference to my family. I have lost more blood relatives to the 1918 pandemic than COVID-19. But since you posted the article it seems only obvious to point out the very first line: But national population numbers have tripled since then. Influenza killed one in 150 Americans, while one in 500 people have died from the coronavirus.

Ah, got it. I didn't catch that you were saying only in reference to your family.

And yes, fair point about the population numbers then vs. now.

Not only has the population tripled since then but life expectancy has greatly increased in the last century as well. It was what, 54 in 1914 and 78 in 2019? Modern medicine successfully extended the lives of a whole lot of people much deeper into old age where, unfortunately, a novel virus could really wreak havoc (75% of US Covid deaths are in the 65+ bracket, 94% in the 50+). Had they lived back then many of the people that Covid has taken would have been dead of something else by the time the 1918 flu came to town.

Whatever the top line Covid numbers end up being the 1918 flu was much, much worse (*barring the emergence of some super virulent Covid variant that can kill a healthy 28 year in 36 hours, the way the 2nd wave of 1918 flu could).

[PDXTabs]

Whatever the top line Covid numbers end up being the 1918 flu was much, much worse (*barring the emergence of some super virulent Covid variant that can kill a healthy 28 year in 36 hours, the way the 2nd wave of 1918 flu could).

It was certainly worse for the healthy 28 year old crowd. But in my family they were on a farm with no electricity or running water when they got it. They did not have access to anything we would call medical care. This meant no oxygen, ventilators, monoclonal antibodies, steroids, antibiotics*, etc. I think that you need to take that into account when thinking about the differing death tolls. But I'm not a doctor or an epidemiologist so I don't know exactly how much that changed the outcome.

* - EDITed to add that "the majority of deaths were from bacterial pneumonia, a common secondary infection associated with influenza" according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

[former player]

Whatever the top line Covid numbers end up being the 1918 flu was much, much worse (*barring the emergence of some super virulent Covid variant that can kill a healthy 28 year in 36 hours, the way the 2nd wave of 1918 flu could).

It was certainly worse for the healthy 28 year old crowd. But in my family they were on a farm with no electricity or running water when they got it. They did not have access to anything we would call medical care. This meant no oxygen, ventilators, monoclonal antibodies, steroids, etc. I think that you need to take that into account when thinking about the differing death tolls. But I'm not a doctor or an epidemiologist so I don't know exactly how much that changed the outcome.

Not just less health care for the Spanish flu, but less health care for everything plus poorer and more limited food, poor housing conditions and hard physical labour - the reports on the physical condition of men conscripted into WW1 make it clear just how much healthier young adults are today than 100 years ago.

[deborah]

Of course, there are quite a few excess deaths in the USA, and according to the Economist

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates

the actual death toll is

United States   
Official covid-19 deaths: 719,525
Per 100,000: 216.1   
Estimated excess deaths: 840k to 970k   
Estimated excess deaths per 100,000: 250 to 290   
Estimate v official: +30%

[nereo]

Virtually no one who died from the 1918 flu pandemic would be alive today, whereas almost everyone who died from Covid 19 would otherwise still be with us.

Ergo, Covid-19 has been far worse
:-P

[talltexan]

@neo von retorch , thanks for helping me out, I will take more care with my links to future outrages.

[jrhampt]

In response to the thread topic, while my parents aren't dead (yet), their minds are gone - to the point where I doubt they could figure out how to vote even if they were able to get to a voting location this year.  They got the virus around September 1st.  They are in their 60s, and the neurological effects are amazing.  In a very bad way.  The neurological effects combined with a steady diet of conspiracy theories and misinformation prior to their diagnoses have made it very difficult to get them help for their physical bodies, too.