Author Topic: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics  (Read 11682 times)

grantmeaname

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So how does everybody feel about Monsanto?
I was thinking the other day what kind of jobs I'd be unwilling to do and working for a cigarette company is on that very short list.
A coworker of mine after he graduated college was called by a recruiter.  After saying he was from a "biotech"/"agricultural" company the exchange went something like this:Coworker: And what company are you with?
Recruiter: Oh, I'm with ....mumble-mumble...
Coworker: With who?
Recruiter: Monsanto.
Coworker: Sorry, I'm not interested.
Recruiter: Why not?
Coworker: Moral reasons.
Recruiter: -click-

Monsanto is on his list.
Monsanto offered my dad a sweet gig about ten years ago and he decided not to work there partially on moral grounds. At the time I thought it was extremely clear-cut and was amazed that he was even seriously considering it. Now? I'd work there without too much reservation. It's funny for me to look back and see how dramatically my worldview has changed.
My little brother worked for Monsanto's research team right out of college. It was a great job, working for a company that has done far more good than bad for society. He moved on to a position in ag chemical sales with another company. I'm very proud of him.
Wow. We should start a thread about that, cause I can't think of a more evil company.

Actually, it's the only company I can think of that I dislike for moral reasons.

I'd love to hear your views on it, and why they changed.

grantmeaname

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 01:24:40 PM »
I think the dramatic change in my opinion of Monsanto (from "Monsanto is Satan" to a sort of uneasy acceptance) has resulted mostly from a change in my fundamental values but also partially from a change in my understanding of the company over the last eight (not ten, turns out) years.

In the middle of high school it was pretty clear to me that Monsanto was a business run by men willing to watch the world burn - hell, they'd even burn it themselves - as long as the bottom line was healthy. The company was most famous for the pesticide Roundup, but could also be remembered as the villain of Silent Spring, the most important book in the American Environmental movement. And they were genetically modifying food, which differed from sorcery only in subtle ways to the American public as a whole, and which was certainly an unproven technology in my mind. Worst of all was the shocking case in which a man's field spontaneously grew his neighbor's Monsanto seeds and they sued him for patent infringement when they found his plants were resistant. I was on a diet of Orion, Daniel Quinn, and this dude who I now recognize is totally nuts. (I already knew that it was important to be critical of most everything you read but thought that somehow the dedication of people like Jensen to the world made them compelled to faithfully represent their subjects. Ha!) At that point in life, graphs like this one were amazing explanations of just how fucked we really all were and why modern life was so hectic.

I still value many of the things that first meant a lot to me then - our duty of stewardship to the environment and humans' need to go see and really inhabit the real world. I don't know if I'm still exactly an Ishmael-style animist but that's probably in the ballpark. But seven years ago I literally believed that a huge die-off of most of humanity wouldn't be such a bad thing from the perspective of the whole ecosystem, considering just how quickly we've managed to trash the place in the last microsecond of our planet's existence. So why would I support a company that made the whole food chain seemingly unhealthy, contributed to monoculture and sped the destruction of topsoil, and in the process all we got out of it was MOAR people? And on top of that they were litigious with their intellectual property and acted like they owned the base pairs themselves, at a time when I didn't even use closed-source software because I was so sure information needed to be free? Fuck right off, Monsanto!

Then things changed. First, I got a job carrying gross burgers to grumpy blue-collar tourists, and I got to care a whole lot more about human suffering - people who smoked because they [felt they] couldn't afford to eat, getting paid far less than a living wage by a corporation thought of as an upstanding corporate citizen and a pillar of the community. The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation, it's said. I don't know if it's right that seeing the 'real world' in that way made me start to care more for my immediate part of the ecosystem and less for the rest of it, but that's definitely what the effect has been.

I went to school and studied anthropology, no doubt influenced by the Ishmael phase, and got to appreciate the enormous breadth and quiet grace of human cultural practice (unsurprisingly, the classes I loved were the ones about food and making a life in the world, not the other boring stuff like religion, diffusion of innovation, warfare, or whatever). I still saw serenity in rivers and great blue herons, but the same beauty was present in humanity too. (Even though we chop stuff down and overfish stuff sometimes.)

And while I've always been a pragmatist, that led to skepticism and pessimism when I was in high school and early on in college. This dude came along and made a pragmatic case for optimism, which has been more influential than anything else on the site. The tone of everything is a lot brighter now than it once was.

Finally, I started studying economics and then joined the business school, which has totally changed my perception of commerce. Before that year, money was an inconvenience that you had to bat out of the way in order to be an anthropology professor or somebody who lives life one gig at a time and makes the saxophone really sing - an impediment to authentic living that society somehow hadn't figured out a way around. Now I'd probably give you a definition more along the lines of revealed preferences - society really values white picket fences, one caribbean vacation a year, and machines that can tell you if you have hypertension, and so we invest our lives in making those things happen, with a convenient medium of exchange. It's an imperfect definition what with income inequality and things we all think are important but nobody pays for, but it's a pretty good first approximation. And so suddenly Giant Corp. isn't big because it abuses mom and pop retailers and invades the third world, but because it does a really good job producing three or four things that society has decided are worth a piece of our finite lives. And it's not really that substantial of an entity, either - Giant Corp is a tool that people use to make society more like their vision of how it should be. It's owned entirely by people, and it's actions are more or less dictated by its owners' preferences, with the occasional governance problem interfering.

So where does that leave Monsanto?

Turns out Bowman was a wilful infringer and the journalist from whom I read about him was more concerned with the message than the truth, though I'm honestly still uneasy about their intellectual property policy. I'd say Disney is about ten times worse when it comes to abusing intellectual property laws, and Disney doesn't even really do something that I consider worthwhile - and if you really want to see some horrifying IP law, check out Monsanto's sector mates, Myriad. And roundup has an amazing safety record, considering its reputation. It's also effective in miniscule doses, unlike some organic alternatives. A new objection I have to the company is that they function outside of free markets to some extent, which I think raises the chance that the company isn't really enacting society's values - just like the military contractors, it's hard to make the argument that society is buying just as many Monsanto products as people value when the transactions are taking place through the USDA. But I think that may be the price for a somewhat well-functioning democracy, and it doesn't make sense to compare an ideal society that can never exist to a messy one that actually does. Monsanto also doesn't make that much money, relative to the enormous apparatus they have to put in place to make their products - 12% return on assets is certainly healthy but it's not like they're Coca-Cola (which everyone here seems to worship anyway). Finally, I've come around on a big way about how bad people starving is, and Monsanto products seem to do a good deal to help with that (though it's not something I've really critically looked into). I certainly don't dispute that there are warts on the company's record, but my views on those have really changed by my new opinion of 'business' as a societal institution.

So here's what I've come around to now: corporatismcapitalism and agribusiness have lots of big problems. But there's no passing the buck: they're ultimately tools that we use to do the things that we value. Sometimes we look at the holes in the ground and say "I wish society would value thing X more than thing Y, like I do, and dig over there rather than here", and other times we need to look at the tool and say "that's really a wasteful way to dig a hole - I need to advocate for freer markets, or cheaper financial intermediation, or better public awareness of issues, or better corporate governance, so as to sharpen the shovel a little bit".
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 03:09:10 PM by grantmeaname »

GuitarStv

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 01:35:51 PM »
They seem to try very hard to be the stereotype of an evil corporate entity.

Russ

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 01:38:06 PM »
Reserved for my actual thoughts on things.
what a tease

BlueMR2

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 03:12:10 PM »
So how does everybody feel about Monsanto?

I don't get too excited about them.  I save my righteous wrath for companies that have nice friendly images on the outside, but are actually rotten in the core.  In the end, they're far more dangerous.

marty998

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 04:10:47 PM »
So how does everybody feel about Monsanto?

I don't get too excited about them.  I save my righteous wrath for companies that have nice friendly images on the outside, but are actually rotten in the core.  In the end, they're far more dangerous.

Amazing how many Chevron commercials are being shown down here with pretty little blond 5 year olds dancing in daffodil fields. Meanwhile the water aquifers in the ground beneath her are being fracked and poisoned.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 04:38:37 PM by marty998 »

deborah

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 04:19:59 PM »
So how does everybody feel about Monsanto?

I don't get too excited about them.  I save my righteous wrath for companies that have nice friendly images on the outside, but are actually rotten in the core.  In the end, they're far more dangerous.

Amazing how many Chevron commercials are being shown down here with pretty little blond 5 year olds dancing in daffodil fields. Meanwhile the water aquifers in the ground beneath her are is being fracked and poisoned.
Australia has huge problems with water, as the vast majority of the continent doesn't get much rain (a friend who grew up in central Australia remembers running home from school screaming the first time it rained, because he didn't know what it was). However, the vast artesian basin provides water for much of inland Australia (unfortunately it is drying up), so fracking is a huge concern to many.

Tyler

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 05:15:42 PM »
Fantastic post, Grantmeaname.  It's surprisingly inspiring to hear the story of someone willing to challenge their core beliefs and come around to a new well-reasoned perspective on things. 

warfreak2

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2014, 05:35:39 AM »
I'm not really worried about GM food any more than I'm worried about the less-advanced genetic modification which has been going on for thousands of years - artificial selection and cross-pollination. I'm also not so concerned about pesticides and "chemicals" as we have fairly effective regulation and the chemicals permitted or banned in organic farming seem fairly arbitrary.

My main problem with Monsanto is patents. AFAIK, farmers using the seeds of their own crops (rather than buying more seeds from the manufacturer) is considered patent infringement. IMO, that is totally ridiculous, and if a farmer grows crops then they should be allowed to use the seeds from those crops however they like - including replanting or selling them. If Monsanto sells seeds, then they shouldn't have legal rights to control the future produce of those seeds.

Worsted Skeins

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2014, 06:12:48 AM »
Thank you for presenting an interesting essay.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that many corporations claim to carry the "free market" standard bearer but don't.  Government is a pain in the arse unless government is paying to clean up the mess caused by Corporation A (Duke Energy perhaps?) or unless government allows a corporation the monopoly it is due. 

Yes to warfreak2 regarding patents.  I live in a rural area where one guy's Monsanto crops may be carried by the wind into an adjacent field owned by another.  Some corporations are excused from fault due to "an act of God" yet Monsanto benefits from its breeze born seed.

Perhaps I fail to see these "free markets" that are supposedly at play here.

GuitarStv

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 06:23:14 AM »
Monsanto has sued people in Canada who don't use their seeds - and won.  Any farmer who collects his seed for the next year, and happens to have any seeds from a nearby farmer using Monsanto's stuff can be sued and have to hand over all of the seed collected because it becomes Monsanto's property.

That's some pretty evil bullshit considering that the genes that Monstanto has altered can be spread by bees, pollen in the wind, animals tracking a few seeds from field to field, etc.  It's damned near impossible to prevent pollen flow.  It doesn't matter if it's 1% of the collected seeds that show the patented genes or 99%.  All of the seeds belong to Monsanto.

This makes it incredibly difficult for farmers to save any seed if there's anybody nearby using Monsanto's product.  In effect, they are all forced to buy new seed every year.

In fact, technically a GM plant that grows from a seed that blew into the field is owned by Monstanto.  There was a case where the farmer that owned the land was told that he couldn't remove the plant on his own, but that Monsanto wouldn't send someone to remove the plant before it went to seed.  The farmer removed the plant and had to fight a court case with Monsanto over this.


You pretty much can't grow non-GM canola or soya crops in Canada any more due to the widespread GM pollen from Monsanto products.  I'm not a GM alarmist, but it really is a dick move that Monsanto prevents all farmers in Canada from gathering seed from their crop due to the spread of their GM pollen.  They regularly send threatening letters to farmers across Canada giving them the option of handing over a few hundred thousand dollars out of court or many hundreds of thousands of dollars in a multi-year prolonged court case.

Make no doubt about it, they are grade A assholes.

Jamesqf

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2014, 11:58:24 AM »
My main problem with Monsanto is patents. AFAIK, farmers using the seeds of their own crops (rather than buying more seeds from the manufacturer) is considered patent infringement. IMO, that is totally ridiculous...

Though Monsanto is really not the cause of the problem.  Like other patent trolls, they just take advantage of antiquated patent laws, via a judicial system that apparently feels that man-made law should trump nature.

warfreak2

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2014, 12:20:13 PM »
Even if it were legal to punch people in the face, you have to admit that those who punch others in the face would still be at least partially responsible for it...

Honestly, Jamesqf, sometimes you write things that, were they attributable to someone else, even you would argue against.

arebelspy

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2014, 12:28:33 PM »
Interesting. 

Your (grant) reasons for hating Monsanto were completely different than mine.

I don't have a problem with our population levels, and I don't have a problem with GM food (I'm very much in favor, in fact), and I don't have a problem with RoundUp.

My assertion of their evilness has to do with their abuse of the patent system and their attempts to control the world's food sources.

Including (allegedly) purposefully cross-pollinating people's fields and then suing them for it.

http://www.dailytech.com/Monsanto+Defeats+Small+Farmers+in+Critical+Bioethics+Class+Action+Suit/article24118.htm
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/17/local/la-me-gs-organic-farmers-sue-monsanto-to-stop-patent-suits-20120217

Also them inventing the Agent Orange chemical is potentially morally dubious...

If you skip all of the above links though, read this: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/monsanto200805

It's from the May 2008 edition of Vanity Fair and talks about the aggressive tactics they use to dominate agribusiness.  It's their practices I find evil, not their products.

(As a side note: You brought up Disney, and I have a related issue with them, and their continual extension of copyright stealing things from the public domain.)

I agree with Jamesqf that the patent system needs fixing, but Monsanto is still evil in many of the things they do to abuse it, and the tactics they use on small farmers.
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dragoncar

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2014, 12:51:00 PM »
My main problem with Monsanto is patents. AFAIK, farmers using the seeds of their own crops (rather than buying more seeds from the manufacturer) is considered patent infringement. IMO, that is totally ridiculous...

Though Monsanto is really not the cause of the problem.  Like other patent trolls, they just take advantage of antiquated patent laws, via a judicial system that apparently feels that man-made law should trump nature.

Are the laws antiquated?  I thought the Monsanto cases were pretty new law.  The public policy issue is how to reward innovation in this field?  Let's assume for the sake of argument that GM helps the world (surely debatable but as grant points out, we clearly value these crops from an economic standpoint).  But without patent protection, Monsanto would never make any money on all it's research.  Once one seed got out it could be propagated indefinitely.  I agree that the legal conclusion is distasteful, but it seems like the most practical way to allow innovation.  Note that the patents end within a couple decades and then everyone can use the seeds forever.  Monsanto is just trying to make hay while the sun shines. 

Heart of Tin

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2014, 01:44:43 PM »
But without patent protection, Monsanto would never make any money on all it's research.  Once one seed got out it could be propagated indefinitely.  I agree that the legal conclusion is distasteful, but it seems like the most practical way to allow innovation.  Note that the patents end within a couple decades and then everyone can use the seeds forever.  Monsanto is just trying to make hay while the sun shines.

In the case of the Roundup Ready variety of corn, soy beans, canola, etc. they make plenty of money. The genetic modification on those crops gives them a natural resistance to the herbicide Roundup which allows the farmer to spray the plants directly with Roundup throughout their lifetime without hurting the crop. Monsanto still makes money selling Roundup to the farmer.

grantmeaname

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2014, 02:03:15 PM »
The bottom line, as I see it, is that many corporations claim to carry the "free market" standard bearer but don't.
I'd go even a little further than that to say that I believe that it's real hard to make an argument for the societal value of the corporation without a reasonably free market in which the corporation's products are sold. But I'm not as quick now to throw the baby out with the bathwater - with the scale of investment needed to do things like build airplanes and re-engineer our food supply, it's almost inevitable that companies will grow to the scale that they can get rents out of controlling a market. Rather than bemoan it, I think it would do us a lot of good to sharpen our focus and think critically about the legal and financial reforms that can minimize its effects.

Though Monsanto is really not the cause of the problem.  Like other patent trolls, they just take advantage of antiquated patent laws, via a judicial system that apparently feels that man-made law should trump nature.
Yeah, what's next? Bridges? The wheel? Fire? God forbid man tries to manipulate his environment using technology in order to secure a better life! There's nothing unique about GMOs here.

I don't have a problem with our population levels, and I don't have a problem with GM food (I'm very much in favor, in fact), and I don't have a problem with RoundUp.

My assertion of their evilness has to do with their abuse of the patent system and their attempts to control the world's food sources.
That's pretty much how I feel about them too; I guess I'm still waiting for the part where we disagree. I guess I see it as more of an unfortunate fact of their market position that we as a society should work to remedy, rather than some unique narrative due to the personal actions or badness of the corporate officers?

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(As a side note: You brought up Disney, and I have a related issue with them, and their continual extension of copyright stealing things from the public domain.)
Yes, that's exactly why I brought up Disney and exactly my problem with them as well.

Monsanto still makes money selling Roundup to the farmer.
And why is it that they were able to make so much money selling roundup for so many years? They had a government granted monopoly on it. Now that it's in the public domain there's not much money to be made off of it - wikipedia suggests it's a tenth of revenue, and I'd wager it's a smaller piece of profit.

Jamesqf

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2014, 02:16:22 PM »
Are the laws antiquated?  I thought the Monsanto cases were pretty new law.

The cases may be new, but the patent laws that the decisions were based on are antiquated.  (At least I think so, but IANAL :-))

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But without patent protection, Monsanto would never make any money on all it's research.  Once one seed got out it could be propagated indefinitely.

That's something that's inherent in the nature of a seed-bearing organism, so patent laws that try to restrict it are denying the laws of nature.  Monsanto may claim that they couldn't make money, but traditional seed producers remain in business, selling ordinary varieties and hybrids produced through selective breeding.  Monsanto just uses the badly-written (IMHO) law to short-sightedly (again, IMHO) increase its profits at the cost of its reputation.

Though Monsanto is really not the cause of the problem.  Like other patent trolls, they just take advantage of antiquated patent laws, via a judicial system that apparently feels that man-made law should trump nature.
Yeah, what's next? Bridges? The wheel? Fire? God forbid man tries to manipulate his environment using technology in order to secure a better life! There's nothing unique about GMOs here.

You pretty obviously misunderstood what I meant about patent laws trumping nature.  It wasn't about using GM methods to develop new varieties, it's about (as above) trying to deny the fact that plants naturally reproduce by seeds, which they broadcast as best they can, so that any non-sterile GM variety is eventually going to propagate itself into places where it wasn't planted.  And then there's natural gene transfer...

grantmeaname

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2014, 02:54:04 PM »
You pretty obviously misunderstood what I meant about patent laws trumping nature.  It wasn't about using GM methods to develop new varieties, it's about (as above) trying to deny the fact that plants naturally reproduce by seeds, which they broadcast as best they can, so that any non-sterile GM variety is eventually going to propagate itself into places where it wasn't planted.  And then there's natural gene transfer...
I pretty obviously still can't grasp what's unique about Monsanto compared to any other instance of humans writing contracts which have the natural world as a significant element. It's not about the seeds, it's about the farmers freely entering into a contract which has as their detriment the abstention from wilfully growing seeds the second season. If they do so, it's a breach of the contract, and their counterparty sues for the damages. You know, just like any other situation in which one party willfully breaches a contract it made with another and the second party attempts to recover from its injury. Where's the exceptional, different part?

grantmeaname

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2014, 03:13:14 PM »
Gotta question your links here. I probably thought the company was worse before I started reading them.
http://www.dailytech.com/Monsanto+Defeats+Small+Farmers+in+Critical+Bioethics+Class+Action+Suit/article24118.htm
Monsanto defended itself in this lawsuit by successfully arguing that the plaintiffs didn't have any standing. They sought a preliminary injunction, one of the most dramatic forms of legal relief, on little more than hearsay. And as for dailytech? Ugh. No halfway respectable article grasps at straws this desparately in the lede "They also were the company responsible for spraying Agent Orange all over soldiers in Vietnam, which is thought to have led to cancer and other ailments." I know that though shalt not ad hominem, but when the best real estate of the article is filled with shit like that I can't help but question what the author is lying about or not telling me.
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http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/17/local/la-me-gs-organic-farmers-sue-monsanto-to-stop-patent-suits-20120217
This is, again, Monsanto getting sued. But the article does nothing to demonstrate the extent to which Monsanto abuses the patent system besides lob the hearsay of the suit's plaintiffs our way.
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Also them inventing the Agent Orange chemical is potentially morally dubious...
Again, not to be a Monsanto apologist, but the chemical was invented by somebody totally unrelated to the firm on a different continent during a time in the dark depths of World War II. I don't think it's great that they, Dow Chemical, and others manufactured the chemical, but it was our government that sprayed it on the good folks in southeast Asia. Looks like they had a big part in the 2,3,7,8-TCDD contamination that led to the most exceptional effects of Agent Orange like that haunting picture of the barrel full of fetuses, though. Ethically dubious is probably a decent label for this one.
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If you skip all of the above links though, read this: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/monsanto200805
It's an abuse of the patent system for an enormous multinational conglomerate with hundreds of thousands of customers to file approximately ten lawsuits a year? The tone of the article makes it sound like an epic injustice, until they go and fuck it up by including actual facts. And there's so much shadowy insinuation, and so much bullshit about things like "the right to be free from criticism" and the notion it's okay to violate a legal contract you sign if you either don't understand it or just later don't feel like following it. If the worst damnation of Monsanto that coauthors this rage-filled can muster is that there exists a website that criticizes a farmer whose political views differ from Monsanto, and that the website is registered to someone who used to work there at some unspecified point in the past, maybe their legal policy isn't as egregious as I thought. I guess whenever I see statements about reams of documents implicating a company, I want to see at the very least a summary of those reams. If you have a couple thousand pages of evidence about a specific injustice, dive into it and make the data tell a story! Don't just allude to it with a wry I-know-things-you-don't tone and then spend a paragraph or two mumbling vague things about revolving doors! Grump grump grump

I somehow missed that Monsanto was the other side of the rBST clash all this time. That's another strike against them, though I will say that I think the system worked just fine in this case. We have better disclosures and consumers can make better decisions as a result of the legal proceedings.

GuitarStv

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2014, 03:29:22 PM »
Most of the abuse doesn't go to court.  Farmers can't afford to fight the good fight against a billion dollar corporation, so usually settle out of court and pay through the teeth.

grantmeaname

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2014, 03:56:46 PM »
[citation needed]

Where are the reams of evidence on that that three separate articles have promised?

dragoncar

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2014, 06:11:31 PM »
Are the laws antiquated?  I thought the Monsanto cases were pretty new law.

The cases may be new, but the patent laws that the decisions were based on are antiquated.  (At least I think so, but IANAL :-))

Eh, I'll have to check.  I am a patent lawyer but I'm pretty specialized in electronics.

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But without patent protection, Monsanto would never make any money on all it's research.  Once one seed got out it could be propagated indefinitely.

That's something that's inherent in the nature of a seed-bearing organism, so patent laws that try to restrict it are denying the laws of nature.  Monsanto may claim that they couldn't make money, but traditional seed producers remain in business, selling ordinary varieties and hybrids produced through selective breeding.  Monsanto just uses the badly-written (IMHO) law to short-sightedly (again, IMHO) increase its profits at the cost of its reputation.


Yeah, that's the part that rubs me the wrong way.  On the other hand, it's a law of nature that once information gets out, it can be copied indefinitely (CDs, video games, airplanes, etc.).  So yeah you can argue against patents as a whole on the same grounds, which maybe you'd like to, but it doesn't make Monsanto more evil than a small artist suing a larger company for copying his music.

Traditional seed producers don't seem like a good comparison -- are there successful seed design businesses out there that sell custom bred seeds without patent protection?  They seem to be more in the business of selling their efforts in reproduction, not design.  But I don't know for sure.  Maybe animal breeding is a better comparison, but I understand breeders also set up complex contracts and/or prevent their creations from propagating (by neutering, etc.).

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2014, 09:47:11 PM »
I pretty obviously still can't grasp what's unique about Monsanto compared to any other instance of humans writing contracts which have the natural world as a significant element. It's not about the seeds, it's about the farmers freely entering into a contract which has as their detriment the abstention from wilfully growing seeds the second season. If they do so, it's a breach of the contract, and their counterparty sues for the damages. You know, just like any other situation in which one party willfully breaches a contract it made with another and the second party attempts to recover from its injury. Where's the exceptional, different part?

The different part is Monsanto going after uninvolved third parties after the GM plants the contracting farmer planted self-sowed in the 3rd parties' fields.  Or the modified genes got passed around via pollination &c.

So yeah you can argue against patents as a whole on the same grounds, which maybe you'd like to, but it doesn't make Monsanto more evil than a small artist suing a larger company for copying his music.

Except that (at least according to media reports, which of course may or may not be accurate) the situation is more like a big-name rapper suing me because I happened to hear rap coming from the car next to me at a stop light.

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2014, 10:30:20 PM »
I pretty obviously still can't grasp what's unique about Monsanto compared to any other instance of humans writing contracts which have the natural world as a significant element. It's not about the seeds, it's about the farmers freely entering into a contract which has as their detriment the abstention from wilfully growing seeds the second season. If they do so, it's a breach of the contract, and their counterparty sues for the damages. You know, just like any other situation in which one party willfully breaches a contract it made with another and the second party attempts to recover from its injury. Where's the exceptional, different part?

The different part is Monsanto going after uninvolved third parties after the GM plants the contracting farmer planted self-sowed in the 3rd parties' fields.  Or the modified genes got passed around via pollination &c.

So yeah you can argue against patents as a whole on the same grounds, which maybe you'd like to, but it doesn't make Monsanto more evil than a small artist suing a larger company for copying his music.

Except that (at least according to media reports, which of course may or may not be accurate) the situation is more like a big-name rapper suing me because I happened to hear rap coming from the car next to me at a stop light.

I guess it's like a big rapper suing you for recording a memo to yourself where they sic was playing on the radio in the background, but where you then plan to sell the recording.

msilenus

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2014, 12:51:04 AM »

The different part is Monsanto going after uninvolved third parties after the GM plants the contracting farmer planted self-sowed in the 3rd parties' fields.  Or the modified genes got passed around via pollination &c.


This is a myth.  There was a lawsuit in Canada where a farmer claimed that this had happened.  The farmer had sprayed his field down with Roundup before harvesting seed for the next year.  The judge didn't buy that the later generations having very high concentrations of the gene was accidental.  I wouldn't, either.  If you're a farmer, and you're spraying your crop down with a pesticide before harvesting seed, you know what you're selecting for.

Here's a debunking by NPR [1].  You can read some of the juicy bits in the original decision [2].

[1] http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/10/18/163034053/top-five-myths-of-genetically-modified-seeds-busted
[2] http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/38991/index.do (See esp. paragraphs 102-106 and 118-120.)

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2014, 05:57:33 AM »
[citation needed]

Where are the reams of evidence on that that three separate articles have promised?

Well, they admit that most of their legal dealings are settled out of court on their own website:

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With regard to specific cases, the vast majority of our contractual disputes are settled out of court
http://www.monsanto.com/food-inc/pages/faqs.aspx


Then there's this 2007 report . . . http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/84CBE686-E16D-41D7-B755-0DF6CC840BC4/FinalDownload/DownloadId-DC5386E8EC9994A7AB941B7B1F0ECCEC/84CBE686-E16D-41D7-B755-0DF6CC840BC4/files/monsanto_november_2007_update.pdf

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These recorded judgments fail to convey a true picture of the scope of Monsanto’s aggressive actions against U.S. farmers. This is because the majority of cases brought by Monsanto end in confidential, out-of-court settlements. Press reports and Monsanto’s own statements suggest that the company investigates ro ughly 500 farmers each year.

In one case, Monsanto vs. McFarling, District Court Judge Catherine D. Perry stated that: “[t]he vast majority of cases filed by Monsanto against farmers have been settled before any extensive litigation took place.”

Center for Food Safety has compiled information formerly available on Monsanto’s website to arrive at estimates of the total sums paid to Monsanto by farmers in what the company calls “seed piracy matters.” Appendix I summarizes these estimates for 19 states. Appendix II reproduces the ten “Seed Piracy Updates” upon which our compilation is based.
• As of June 2006, Monsanto had instituted an estimated 2,391 to 4,531 “seed piracy matters” against farmers in 19 states
• Farmers have paid Monsanto an estimated $85,653,601 to $160,594,230 in settlements of these seed piracy matters
• The number of seed piracy matters reported by Monsanto is 20 to 40 times the number of lawsuits we have found in public court records
• The estimated total of settlements paid to Monsanto by farmers ($85.7 to $160.6 million) exceeds by four to eight times the total of recorded judgments ($21.6 million)


So . . . as you can see,
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Most of the abuse doesn't go to court.  Farmers can't afford to fight the good fight against a billion dollar corporation, so usually settle out of court and pay through the teeth.

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2014, 10:25:50 AM »
I don't have a problem with our population levels, and I don't have a problem with GM food (I'm very much in favor, in fact), and I don't have a problem with RoundUp.

My assertion of their evilness has to do with their abuse of the patent system and their attempts to control the world's food sources.
That's pretty much how I feel about them too; I guess I'm still waiting for the part where we disagree. I guess I see it as more of an unfortunate fact of their market position that we as a society should work to remedy, rather than some unique narrative due to the personal actions or badness of the corporate officers?

Yeah, I think we agree. There isn't people at the company twirling their mustaches and cackling about how they can be evil.  They aren't purposefully evil for the sake of being evil.  It's a banality of evil, but they are de facto evil because of what they're trying to accomplish.  We absolutely should work to remedy the situation from a societal perspective so they can't/aren't incentivized to be so, but they are doing immoral things in their pursuit of profits.

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(As a side note: You brought up Disney, and I have a related issue with them, and their continual extension of copyright stealing things from the public domain.)
Yes, that's exactly why I brought up Disney and exactly my problem with them as well.

I do think the degree of abuse of Monsanto is worse, even if not the level, due to the nature of what they are involved in: food.  Food is fundamental to existence. Trying to patent and get control of the nation's/world's food supply is particularly problematic to me (versus trying to keep a cartoon mouse exclusive).  Disney caused lots of collateral damage, so their level of abuse is worse, but the nature of Monsanto's makes me particularly uncomfortable.
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dragoncar

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2014, 10:57:33 AM »

I do think the degree of abuse of Monsanto is worse, even if not the level, due to the nature of what they are involved in: food.  Food is fundamental to existence. Trying to patent and get control of the nation's/world's food supply is particularly problematic to me (versus trying to keep a cartoon mouse exclusive).  Disney caused lots of collateral damage, so their level of abuse is worse, but the nature of Monsanto's makes me particularly uncomfortable.

There's a big difference between a 20-year patent term and "life of author, plus 70 years" for copyright (which is the extended term lobbied by Disney).

edit:  The more I think about it, the more I think society is getting the better end of this deal.  We give Intel a patent on some really fast circuit, and in 2-5 years it's irrelevant -- tech has moved on.  By the time the patent is expired, it's basically worthless to society.  On the other hand, if we encourage Monsanto to develop some better growing crop, once the patent expires, that's extremely useful to society basically forever.  Same with drugs, which are very expensive to develop and easy to copy.


Well, they admit that most of their legal dealings are settled out of court on their own website:


The vast majority of all legal dealings are settled out of court.  Like around 97%.  And that's a good thing.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 11:00:44 AM by dragoncar »

arebelspy

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2014, 11:09:58 AM »
edit:  The more I think about it, the more I think society is getting the better end of this deal.  We give Intel a patent on some really fast circuit, and in 2-5 years it's irrelevant -- tech has moved on.  By the time the patent is expired, it's basically worthless to society.  On the other hand, if we encourage Monsanto to develop some better growing crop, once the patent expires, that's extremely useful to society basically forever.  Same with drugs, which are very expensive to develop and easy to copy.

Except you can't use them after that, because they've just sold you a one year licence.  You don't own the seed.  So even when the patent is up, so is your license.  So you need to develop your own seed.  And they can tweak it slightly (and will) to keep it going perpetually.
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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2014, 11:20:36 AM »
I guess it's like a big rapper suing you for recording a memo to yourself where they sic was playing on the radio in the background, but where you then plan to sell the recording.

Depends.  If I was planning to sell the recording of me, wouldn't I be justified in suing them for contaminating my audio stream?  Suppose I'm planning to sell my organic crop, which has accidentally been contaminated by the guy next door using Monsanto's seeds?

This is a myth.  There was a lawsuit in Canada where a farmer claimed that this had happened.  The farmer had sprayed his field down with Roundup before harvesting seed for the next year.  The judge didn't buy that the later generations having very high concentrations of the gene was accidental.  I wouldn't, either.  If you're a farmer, and you're spraying your crop down with a pesticide before harvesting seed, you know what you're selecting for.

Here's a debunking by NPR [1].  You can read some of the juicy bits in the original decision [2].

Hardly a myth, since the 'debunking' supports the fact that GM seed/pollen moved to that farmer's fields from his neighbors without his intervention.  If I understood it correctly, he lost the case because he then deliberately selected only RR plants by spraying with RoundUp, and used that seed.  Had he just harvested everything that was there, the verdict might have been different.  And after a few generations, the RR gene could easily be in the majority of the crop, without any deliberate intent.

The vast majority of all legal dealings are settled out of court.  Like around 97%.  And that's a good thing.

Yes and no.  It's a good thing for keeping legal costs down.  When part of the out-of-court settlement requires keeping the terms confidential, it makes it hard to collect accurate data.

dragoncar

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2014, 11:30:06 AM »
edit:  The more I think about it, the more I think society is getting the better end of this deal.  We give Intel a patent on some really fast circuit, and in 2-5 years it's irrelevant -- tech has moved on.  By the time the patent is expired, it's basically worthless to society.  On the other hand, if we encourage Monsanto to develop some better growing crop, once the patent expires, that's extremely useful to society basically forever.  Same with drugs, which are very expensive to develop and easy to copy.

Except you can't use them after that, because they've just sold you a one year licence.  You don't own the seed.  So even when the patent is up, so is your license.  So you need to develop your own seed.  And they can tweak it slightly (and will) to keep it going perpetually.

You don't need to "develop" your own seed.  You may have to create it, but the patent tells you exactly how.  If the patent doesn't fully explain how to make the seed to someone with knowledge in the relevant art, it is invalid.

edit:  Consider generic drugs and how much cheaper they are than the name brands.  Those generics didn't have to redevelop the drug from scratch, they just followed the instructions to recreate it, which makes it really cheap (especially since multiple generics compete).  You don't think once the Monsanto patent is up there won't be 5 agriculture businesses trying to sell those seeds? (I'm assuming the seeds are desirable, but I don't know much about agriculture).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 11:32:40 AM by dragoncar »

msilenus

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2014, 12:43:31 PM »
Quote from: Me
Most of the abuse doesn't go to court.  Farmers can't afford to fight the good fight against a billion dollar corporation, so usually settle out of court and pay through the teeth.
Read your evidence closely.  There's no evidence of any abuse by Monsanto at all.  The contents of private settlements are just that: private.  The fact that the lawsuits exist is in not damning against the plaintiff. 

What's going on here is you're seeing lawsuit statistics, and assuming they're going after farmers who aren't doing anything wrong.  You don't know that, can't know that, and should admit you don't know that.  It is entirely plausible that the vast majority of those lawsuits are against farmers who simply thought they would get away with replanting without paying the license.  Anyone with a bias against Monsanto would agree with your interpretation of the statistics, of course, but that is a circular process without any foundation to support it: they show Monsanto is bad because Monsanto is bad.

Here's a different interpretation.  It's very common for people to treat IP infringement as morally less problematic than conventional theft.  I know I do.  Lots of people have never stolen a physical object in their lives, but have pirated the occasional song or movie or operating system.  That certainly describes me.  I don't think farmers are any different.  What I do think is different is that the sums involved, as well as the physicality of the thing being pirated, make it much more practical for an IP holder like Monsanto to take action against specific infringers in the case of gene infringement than it is for ones like Sony or Microsoft.

If you have any evidence showing one case where that isn't what's going on, then I would very much like to see it.  Honestly, I would.  I'm happy to change my mind about things based on evidence.  But if I were a betting man, I'd bet this thread runs to conclusion without anyone doing that.  And if that's how it plays out, then the evidence supports my explanation of the forces creating the statistics you cited over your own.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 12:50:55 PM by msilenus »

msilenus

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2014, 01:33:22 PM »
Hardly a myth, since the 'debunking' supports the fact that GM seed/pollen moved to that farmer's fields from his neighbors without his intervention.  If I understood it correctly, he lost the case because he then deliberately selected only RR plants by spraying with RoundUp, and used that seed.  Had he just harvested everything that was there, the verdict might have been different.  And after a few generations, the RR gene could easily be in the majority of the crop, without any deliberate intent.

The point here is Monsanto didn't go after him just for the contamination.  No one disputes that cross pollination can happen.  The claim by the anti-GMO side is that this means that Monsanto goes after innocent farmers.  That's the myth.  You clearly understand that this farmer selected for the patented gene, and it seems like you'd concede that that judge was right when he found that the farmer knew our ought to have known what he was doing when he killed off his noncontaminated crop and used the rest for seed.  I suspect we might be tending to agree violently around these basic points, so please don't take any of that as disputing what you're saying, unless you think I'm wrong about that.

I think you're drawing a further inference, which I would dispute, and that is that the possibility for cross-contamination makes enforcement for Monsanto inherently problematic.  (Let me know if I'm wrong.)  That seems reasonable, at first, but you have to understand that a gene with a minority share in a population doesn't win because it's a gene.  It has to win on merits.  There has to be a selective force.  The farmer in the case I cited used Roundup, but it could be even simpler: it could just be harvesting seed straight out of a field that was previously 100% Roundup Ready.  Indeed, if a gene provides no selective advantage, it will tend to decrease its share in the population, as deleterious mutations in it won't be conserved --much less preserved-- by any selective force.  In E.Coli, that takes something like 200 generations IIRC, so we're probably not talking about something that happens on a relevant timescale for human crops, but the point is basically sound: in the absence of selected pressure, the only force driving the concentration of a gene in a population points down.

If you skim the case for the interesting parts (lots of it isn't), you'll see how Monstanto handled the case.  They did a "quick test" of five samples they found on public land that the farmer was cultivating (this sounds pretty normal and reasonable if you check out the details.)  All were Roundup resistant.  They followed up with genetic tests and found the actual gene. 

Furthermore --and this is really important, in my view-- Monsanto testified that when farmers express concern to them about contamination, Monstanto comes out and removes it at their own expense.  So, even if you didn't have any faith in the science of population dynamics, and still had concerns about innocent farmers being sued, or afraid of being sued: there's still a good answer.  All they need to do is pick up a phone if they're worried about this.  As someone who views the science as persuasive , this looks to me like going pretty far "above and beyond."

AFAICT, any farmer, acting in good faith, should have no problem cultivating crops without landing on Monstanto's shit list, and have excellent recourse if they're even worried about that happening.  Again, I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that, but don't expect to be.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 01:35:47 PM by msilenus »

Jamesqf

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2014, 04:36:17 PM »
The point here is Monsanto didn't go after him just for the contamination.  No one disputes that cross pollination can happen.  The claim by the anti-GMO side is that this means that Monsanto goes after innocent farmers.  That's the myth.

It's not a myth - implying that it's a story known to be false.  At worst it's an hypothesis (with some supporting evidence) which can't be proven or disproven because Monsanto has chosen to hide the data behind confidentiality clauses in their out of court settlements.  Which IMHO is suggestive in itself.  Surely they should be aware of the Nixon/Watergate  principle: that whatever you did doesn't get you in nearly as much trouble as attempting to cover it up?

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I think you're drawing a further inference, which I would dispute, and that is that the possibility for cross-contamination makes enforcement for Monsanto inherently problematic.

Yes, though I wouldn't say that 'contamination' is quite the right word.  It's just normal pollination & seed dispersal. 

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That seems reasonable, at first, but you have to understand that a gene with a minority share in a population doesn't win because it's a gene.  It has to win on merits.  There has to be a selective force.

No.  If there is no selective force, pro or con, then the gene would just randomly diffuse through the population.  If there's a selective force against (that is RR plants are weaker than normal ones in a RoundUp-free environment), it would die out; if there's a selective force for, it would outcompete normal plants.  And there is a selective force in favor, as RoundUp and similar glyphosate-based herbicides are widely used, not just with RR crops.


anisotropy

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2014, 04:40:03 PM »
please correct me if i am wrong. i thought the GM seeds are engineered to be good for only one crop cycle?

arebelspy

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2014, 05:09:00 PM »
please correct me if i am wrong. i thought the GM seeds are engineered to be good for only one crop cycle?

Yes, self terminating seeds is another thing I have an issue with.
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GuitarStv

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2014, 05:52:25 PM »
please correct me if i am wrong. i thought the GM seeds are engineered to be good for only one crop cycle?

No, a lot of it (like round up ready stuff) contains genes that are passed on via both seeds and pollen.  That's why all the lawsuits for collecting seeds.  You can collect seed from plants on your land (that you didn't plant or that were cross pollinated) and be violating Monsantos patents, therefore liable in court.

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2014, 06:04:37 AM »
The company was most famous for the pesticide Roundup, but could also be remembered as the villain of Silent Spring, the most important book in the American Environmental movement.

A yes, Silent Spring.  The ridiculous book that doomed millions to death from malaria.  Awesome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/11/magazine/11DDT.html?ei=5070&en=07d04fcfa5d4d97c&ex=1151640000&pagewanted=print&position=

GuitarStv

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2014, 07:12:03 AM »
The company was most famous for the pesticide Roundup, but could also be remembered as the villain of Silent Spring, the most important book in the American Environmental movement.

A yes, Silent Spring.  The ridiculous book that doomed millions to death from malaria.  Awesome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/11/magazine/11DDT.html?ei=5070&en=07d04fcfa5d4d97c&ex=1151640000&pagewanted=print&position=

You're assuming that DDT is an effective mosquito killer.  It is . . . but only for a short while.  The more you use it, the more resistant mosquitoes start turning up . . . until it isn't useful.  The same genes that trigger DDT resistance also tend to allow resistance of other pyrethroids so you end up losing a large number of the chemicals commonly used as insecticides (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140224204808.htm).

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DDT-resistant mosquitoes were first detected in India in 1959, and they have increased so rapidly that when a local spray program is begun now, most mosquitoes become resistant in a matter of months rather than years.

DDT becomes ineffective so quickly now because DDT-resistant mosquitoes exist at low frequency in the global mosquito population and, when a local population is sprayed, a strong force of selection in favor of the resistant mosquitoes is immediately created

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/ridley/tutorials/The_theory_of_natural_selection__part_1_13.asp


Increasing DDT usage isn't likely to have saved quite as many lives as you appear to believe, but it would have certainly contributed to a growing problem of pesticide tolerance in insects.

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2014, 08:00:37 AM »
Quote from: Me
Most of the abuse doesn't go to court.  Farmers can't afford to fight the good fight against a billion dollar corporation, so usually settle out of court and pay through the teeth.
Read your evidence closely.  There's no evidence of any abuse by Monsanto at all.  The contents of private settlements are just that: private.  The fact that the lawsuits exist is in not damning against the plaintiff. 

What's going on here is you're seeing lawsuit statistics, and assuming they're going after farmers who aren't doing anything wrong.  You don't know that, can't know that, and should admit you don't know that.  It is entirely plausible that the vast majority of those lawsuits are against farmers who simply thought they would get away with replanting without paying the license.  Anyone with a bias against Monsanto would agree with your interpretation of the statistics, of course, but that is a circular process without any foundation to support it: they show Monsanto is bad because Monsanto is bad.

Here's a different interpretation.  It's very common for people to treat IP infringement as morally less problematic than conventional theft.  I know I do.  Lots of people have never stolen a physical object in their lives, but have pirated the occasional song or movie or operating system.  That certainly describes me.  I don't think farmers are any different.  What I do think is different is that the sums involved, as well as the physicality of the thing being pirated, make it much more practical for an IP holder like Monsanto to take action against specific infringers in the case of gene infringement than it is for ones like Sony or Microsoft.

If you have any evidence showing one case where that isn't what's going on, then I would very much like to see it.  Honestly, I would.  I'm happy to change my mind about things based on evidence.  But if I were a betting man, I'd bet this thread runs to conclusion without anyone doing that.  And if that's how it plays out, then the evidence supports my explanation of the forces creating the statistics you cited over your own.

The gag orders that Monsanto routinely uses to obfuscate their court cases make it difficult to provide evidence of anything.  That said, there is no argument that the GM plants find their way into the fields of farmers who aren't planting them:

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Other farmers who found volunteer Roundup tolerant plants in their fields, two of whom testified at trial, called Monsanto and the undesired plants were thereafter removed


The farmer is then not legally allowed to use seeds from GM plants that blow into their fields:

Quote
"Thus a farmer whose field contains seed or plants originating from seed spilled into them, or blown as seed, in swaths from a neighbour's land or even growing from germination by pollen carried into his field from elsewhere by insects, birds, or by the wind, may own the seed or plants on his land even if he did not set about to plant them. He does not, however, own the right to the use of the patented gene, or of the seed or plant containing the patented gene or cell."

(http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/38991/index.do)



So, we know that Monsanto is within their legal rights to sue or threaten to sue anybody who farms near another farmer who grows Monsanto's seed due to cross contamination.  Monsanto therefore stands to profit via lawsuit or out of court settlement whenever GM contamination occurs.  I tend to find that profit motive often explains corporate behaviour.

But you're right . . . I can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, as so few of the court cases or out of court settlements are without gag orders.  They even routinely require a gag order to remove GM plants from farmers fields (http://www.producer.com/2007/05/schmeiser-renews-monsanto-battle/).

Jamesqf

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2014, 11:54:39 AM »
Furthermore --and this is really important, in my view-- Monsanto testified that when farmers express concern to them about contamination, Monstanto comes out and removes it at their own expense.

Causing how much collateral damage to the rest of the crop?  Say - just for an example - a random 10% of the plants in a 'contaminated' field carry the RR gene.  Is Monsanto going to hire a bunch of people to walk through the field, carefully test each plant (which is visually identical to the non-RR plant) to see if it carries the gene, and pull out only those that do?  Or are they going to just mow down the whole field?

msilenus

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2014, 12:45:21 PM »
Furthermore --and this is really important, in my view-- Monsanto testified that when farmers express concern to them about contamination, Monstanto comes out and removes it at their own expense.

Causing how much collateral damage to the rest of the crop?  Say - just for an example - a random 10% of the plants in a 'contaminated' field carry the RR gene.  Is Monsanto going to hire a bunch of people to walk through the field, carefully test each plant (which is visually identical to the non-RR plant) to see if it carries the gene, and pull out only those that do?  Or are they going to just mow down the whole field?

Good question!  If you think that the gene is likely to take populations over, then I'd agree that a lot hinges on this.  Note that if these are not questions you know the answer to, then raising them does not say anything bad about Monsanto.

My suspicion is that it would look, at least initially, like the process detailed in the course case I linked earlier.  They took five samples from the field.  That can easily be done by one man on foot, and IIRC, that's what they did.  We can't infer based on that case how many samples would need to test positive for Monsanto to care, because in that case they all came up positive.  However, if the process starts out like that, then I think it forms a decent basis for expecting that screening is non-invasive in the negative case, at least.

It is hard to say what would happen if a farmer reported that he thought there was contamination, and they found a lot of it.  They say "“it has never been, nor will it be, Monsanto’s policy to exercise its patent rights where trace amounts of our patented seeds or traits are present in a farmer’s fields as a result of inadvertent means.” [1]  ... but what if it were neither trace amounts, nor intentional?  Hard to say.  I'm not going to decide they're evil because I don't know that.  I suspect the question is and forever will be moot.

[1] http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/pages/gm-seed-accidentally-in-farmers-fields.aspx
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 04:32:07 PM by msilenus »

Jamesqf

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2014, 03:14:08 PM »
If you think that the gene is likely to take populations over, then I'd agree that a lot hinges on this.

I think it's pretty much inevitable that RR-resistance genes will come to predominate, if people keep on using glyphosate-based herbicides.  It's just basic evolution, no different in principle than the evolution of antibiotic resistance.  Indeed, there are already some weeds that evolved resistance. quite independently of anything Monsanto has done.

Jamesqf

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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love computational genomics
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2014, 10:30:39 PM »
However, if farmers do not already use RR crops, they are not going to use Roundup/glyphosate-based pesticides.

Certainly they are, and they do.  They spray it along ditches & fences, where the crop can't be planted/harvested, and on fields before planting & after harvest.  And of course sometimes the spray will drift, or it will persist in the soil longer than it was supposed to...