Maybe more of a rant, but I am very interested in how other atheists constantly hold their tongues...
I admit that one of the reasons I like this place so much is that I get a vibe that some other folks here aren't all that religious. Why does it matter you ask? Well, it's not that I can't have awesome relationships with some religious folks (I can, as long as they are the "live and let live" types that don't try to inject their religion into gov't), but honestly even with these "nice" religious folks, I still have to hold my tongue.
Things I can't say to my religious friends...
1) You realize that mythologies used to be religions, right? People used to worship Thor. Now he's an Avenger.
2) You realize there have been like thousands of religions? Doesn't that tell you something?
3) Do you think you'd become a heathen ax murderer if you deconverted today? If not, doesn't that tell you something?
4) When you say that you "talk with God," or that "God talked to me," WTF do you mean? Did you hear an actual voice, or did you think to yourself?
5) If God is all-knowing, meaning he knows every decision we will ever make before we make it, how do we still have free will? We would just be programmed puppets. For example, let's say God talks to me on Saturday. I ask, "God, what tie will I wear tomorrow?" God says, "You will wear a yellow tie." Flash forward to Sunday. I look in my closet and choose a tie out of the dozens I have in all sorts of colors. Can I pick a non-yellow tie? Why or why not?"
6) Have you read the whole Bible? Do you realize there are hundreds of editions and that the text is actually different and that different churches "interpret" the word differently? How can a perfect road map be so vague and nebulous, with so many internal inconsistencies? Doesn't it worry you that you are basing your worldview on this? How did you choose your particular denomination and interpretation?
7) Deep down, do you mostly go to church because "other good people do," and you like the socialization it provides?
8) Do you really think me and my wife, and my little kids are going to burn...forrrrr eternity...in Hell? Seriously? (note: if answer is "yes," friendship is obviously severed..this has actually happened).
9) Do you think there might be a sliiiight chance that religions have been used to keep people in place, explain things that couldn't be understood at the time, placate people from their sometimes miserable lots in life (slaves, second class citizens including women for most of history) by promising a "perfect afterlife," and to consolidate power?
10) Name ONE moral virtue taught in the Bible that is exclusive to the Bible. Surely this perfect map has some unique wisdom found nowhere else.
I could go on and on, but I've rambled too much. Do other atheists have similar feelings? Do you use any particular techniques to either bite your tongue, or to gently introduce any of these questions? Are some of you folks in the "I just don't think about religion at all" camp?
I wish I could get there, I really do, but with people constantly injecting religion (almost always Christianity) into school board decisions, and in legislatures, and pretty much trying to make rules based on their specific religious beliefs, I'm not sure how any atheist in America who values reason and science can mentally (or financially) bow out of this conflict.
Hey there! Christian here checking in. Sorry I'm late to the party. You had mentioned this thread wasn't really for Christians, but it sounds like you're genuinely interested and I really respect that. I'll try to answer your questions the best I can!
1) You realize that mythologies used to be religions, right? People used to worship Thor. Now he's an Avenger.
Yes, I understand that. I think the key here is that religions develop from stories. And these aren't just any old stories, they're powerful stories which explains why they last through time. I find the stories in the Bible are powerful, and they resonate with me. I.e. When Jesus, "king of the Earth", is born in a feeding trough in a shabby barn, there's a degree of humility involved that is incredibly powerful. And when he comes riding in to greet his followers, he's wearing sandals and a tattered robe, riding a donkey. He's not wearing garments lined with gold, and isn't riding a royal white stallion decorated in jewels. I see Jesus' humbleness as something pretty neat to live by. He seemed like a pretty cool guy.
I suppose it's not much different than popular secular stories. Rowling wrote the Harry Potter books and almost became richer than the queen of England! But why were they so popular? Because it's a damned powerful story that resonates with so many people! Harry sets out as a kind but ordinary boy, living under the stairs at his uncle's place in humility. He has no family and no friends when he sets off to confront the world. He goes on to face Voldemort, evil in its purest form (part of which lives within Harry in the form of a Horcrux), overcome death, and to stop the world from falling into darkness.
If you really think about it, the Harry Potter story isn't terribly different than Jesus' story. Same with Tolkien's The Hobbit. The Bible is filled with significant stories and I find them fascinating.
2) You realize there have been like thousands of religions? Doesn't that tell you something?
What is this supposed to tell me? I subscribe to many ideas in Christianity, they align with how I think I should live my life. It doesn't mean Christianity is "more right" than any other religion, it's just a preference. Again, Christianity isn't necessarily right. But I'm comfortable enough in what I believe, and I challenge my beliefs on a regular basis. Just like responding to this thread. It's good to challenge one's faith and beliefs.
3) Do you think you'd become a heathen ax murderer if you deconverted today? If not, doesn't that tell you something?
Uhh, I don't think so? What should this tell me though? I don't really see Christianity as the one and only moral compass in existence. But I guess that's a whole other discussion i.e. absolute vs. relative morality.
4) When you say that you "talk with God," or that "God talked to me," WTF do you mean? Did you hear an actual voice, or did you think to yourself?
Personally speaking I've never heard a voice. Some people claim that stuff goes on, I can't really attest to that. There have been a handful of dreams where I thought I was talking to a powerful being (which I interpreted to be God), that's pretty much it.
5) If God is all-knowing, meaning he knows every decision we will ever make before we make it, how do we still have free will? We would just be programmed puppets. For example, let's say God talks to me on Saturday. I ask, "God, what tie will I wear tomorrow?" God says, "You will wear a yellow tie." Flash forward to Sunday. I look in my closet and choose a tie out of the dozens I have in all sorts of colors. Can I pick a non-yellow tie? Why or why not?"
I think people do have free will, but I'm not really sure where you were going with your example about the ties. Could you maybe use another one? Are you saying that if people have free will yet God already knows the specific choices someone will make throughout life then, is there, in essence, free will?
6) Have you read the whole Bible? Do you realize there are hundreds of editions and that the text is actually different and that different churches "interpret" the word differently? How can a perfect road map be so vague and nebulous, with so many internal inconsistencies? Doesn't it worry you that you are basing your worldview on this? How did you choose your particular denomination and interpretation?
I've read the majority of it, mostly the Old Testament but I really need to finish up on the New Testament. I DON'T believe the Bible is a perfect roadmap, and I don't base my entire worldview on the Bible. I don't believe the Bible is meant to take literally. Jesus himself spoke in parables all the time. Even Jesus himself didn't make himself out to be taken literally.
One thing that really pisses me off is how certain denominations of organized Christianity interpret the Bible and make it seem like this is how ALL Christians think. I.e. gay marriage isn't allowed but the Bible also says having long hair was a sin. So how do you cherry pick gay marriage yet the other 500+ laws just happen to fly under the radar? God, that's infuriating.
GTFO of here with not allowing gay marriage, no women allowed in positions of power, and denying basic principles of science. That's not my interpretation at least. I don't believe God/Jesus would say you can believe in me but btw you can't be gay. I follow a denomination that openly allows gay marriage, allows women to be preachers or otherwise hold positions of power, and sings Happy Birthday to Darwin every year. I think evolution of species and geologic history are compatible with religious belief. Guess I'll never understand why a lot of Christians go around saying the world is 4,000-5,000 years old...
7) Deep down, do you mostly go to church because "other good people do," and you like the socialization it provides?
Of course! I like going to church for socialization! It's a great place for a community of people with like-minded views, and it's an especially nice outlet for charity work (albeit volunteer work without the ulterior motive of converting whoever you're helping to Christianity).
8) Do you really think me and my wife, and my little kids are going to burn...forrrrr eternity...in Hell? Seriously? (note: if answer is "yes," friendship is obviously severed..this has actually happened).
Hell no! I have no idea what's going to happen to you, but I do wish the best for you and all your loved ones!
9) Do you think there might be a sliiiight chance that religions have been used to keep people in place, explain things that couldn't be understood at the time, placate people from their sometimes miserable lots in life (slaves, second class citizens including women for most of history) by promising a "perfect afterlife," and to consolidate power?
Oh no, there's not even a slight chance. It's factual. People have used religion in terrible ways. It's disgusting and abhorrent. That's another thing that bothers me about certain Christians, especially those in positions of political power. I.e. Denying factual evidence of global climate change yet going on to say "God will take care of the Earth, it's HIS will. We have nothing to worry about!" Then enacting laws and regulations that actively promote the earth's destruction.
10) Name ONE moral virtue taught in the Bible that is exclusive to the Bible. Surely this perfect map has some unique wisdom found nowhere else.
I don't see the Bible as a perfect map by any means. It really shouldn't be taken literally. I'd say taking everything literally in there would be quite dangerous.
One question I had for you is what do you think about the idea of believing, "in case" there may be a God? I.e. making the better bargain by believing and reaping the rewards rather than not believing and potentially reaping a "worse" benefit such as burning in a fiery hell?
I'd be happy to answer more questions the best I can, just know that I've been pretty busy lately with starting a new full time job, so I might not answer right away. But I'll try!
@Nick_Miller