Author Topic: Hey, Trump Voters  (Read 117118 times)

sol

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #450 on: December 09, 2016, 02:17:06 PM »
Not according to the FBI nor multiple lawyers.

Despite popular perception, Clinton has committed no crimes.  She hasn't even been charged with anything, much less convicted.  She has never been sued.  She has never settled a lawsuit.  All of her activities, even the ones people don't like, have been above board and publicly disclosed.

By contrast, Trump has been involved in roughly three thousand lawsuits, many of which he has lost.  He currently has at least 75 pending lawsuits involving ongoing litigation.  He is verifiably corrupt, as demonstrated by all those court documents describing the cases he has lost (not settled, but lost because he did something illegal).   

Trump is literally a criminal.  Clinton is not.  And yet somehow, people voted for the criminal because they thought the nonc-criminal was more of a criminal than the literal criminal.  It boggles the mind.

Malaysia41

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #451 on: December 09, 2016, 02:17:48 PM »
As a conservative, I agree pretty much any other Republican primary candidate would have been a preferable president, but I'm not sure how many would have been able to beat HRC.  So it's conflicting to me.

I suspect every thinking conservative in the country is currently having this same kind of Ender Wiggins moment, and thinking to themselves "It's great that we won, but at what cost?"

Sometimes the price of victory is the loss of self, the abandonment of the principles for which you fought, and your own slowly unfolding self destruction.

FTFY.

Otherwise known as a Pyrrhic victory.  I'd like to think many are realizing this, but I've seen an awful lot of celebrating in some circles.  Including some evangelical churches. 

This sums up my thoughts: http://okgazette.com/2016/11/16/commentary-what-have-we-done/

Succinct.  True.  From that okgazette article:

Quote
It is about power, it is about fear, and Donald Trump tapped into widespread economic frustration and a smoldering rage about the displacement of the working class, especially less-educated white workers. They believe that Trump is the strongman who can save them. He is the first president ever elected who has never held office or served in the military and does not seem to understand why nuclear weapons cannot be used.

The author of the following article, that Amesenator sent to me, contends that he won because he appealed to people who value society with an authoritarian father figure who puts misbehavers in line. Thinking of the 11 members of my family who voted for Trump - I can attest there is a lot of truth here:

A Minority President and What the Majority Can Do.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 02:22:34 PM by Malaysia41 »

MrMoogle

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #452 on: December 09, 2016, 02:27:38 PM »

I sincerely wish that your principled stand against corruption had been a vote for any other candidate. The level of corruption under trump is likely to be staggering based on his unprecedented mingling of politics and personal/family business within the last month, and the cabinet he had assembled to date.

The tough thing is that everyone will judge the flaws differently.  Some people think that Clinton's email handling and not following the process is no big deal, others see it as criminal. We've seen a lot of Clinton's behavior and know her fairly well.  With Trump there's a lot of unknown.  Many would gamble on a wild card vs. someone already viewed as untrustworthy.

You're entitled to your own opinions and perspectives, but not your own definitions.

crim·i·nal
ˈkrimənl/Submit
noun
1.
a person who has committed a crime.

Mishandling email and not following processes are not crimes.  That would be why the FBI recommended no criminal charges be filed against her.

As a sitting officer in the executive branch of government, it actually is, but that is not the criminality I was referring to, myself.  The private email server thing was basically just an attempt to prevent evidence of misbehavior from entering the permanent archive of the Obama admin.  Not even the worst offense, even though Hillary herself opined that a certain general should go to prison for similar activities, but on a much smaller scale.  The email server was more an example of incompetence with secrets than anything.  However, the very real evidence of graft, access & favoritism selling to foreign companies & powers with interests under the preview of the Secretary of State; that I found unforgivable.  We used to call that "treason".
Not according to the FBI nor multiple lawyers.
If the FBI was talking about me the way they talked about HRC, I would certainly have lost my job, definitely faced fines, and most likely be in prison.  This is mishandling classified data, not mishandling emails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghph_361wa0

Now, I understand as Secretary of State, she is rightfully given more leeway than I am.  It was most likely a host of actors that help violate the law to allow her to do this.  So, I can somewhat understand why she (or someone under her) wasn't charged (or fired to my knowledge), even if I don't agree with it.

But the FBI isn't going around and letting people email classified data now.  It's still against the law.  It is a crime even if not convicted. 

Glenstache

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #453 on: December 09, 2016, 02:29:49 PM »
Well, in the interest of "fair and balanced" (/irony)

Trump is not a stranger to email issues either, though the intent is much clearer.
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-companies-destroyed-emails-documents-515120.html

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #454 on: December 09, 2016, 02:39:15 PM »
Despite popular perception, Clinton has committed no crimes.  She hasn't even been charged with anything, much less convicted.  She has never been sued.  She has never settled a lawsuit.  All of her activities, even the ones people don't like, have been above board and publicly disclosed.

By contrast, Trump has been involved in roughly three thousand lawsuits, many of which he has lost.  He currently has at least 75 pending lawsuits involving ongoing litigation.  He is verifiably corrupt, as demonstrated by all those court documents describing the cases he has lost (not settled, but lost because he did something illegal).   

Trump is literally a criminal.  Clinton is not.  And yet somehow, people voted for the criminal because they thought the nonc-criminal was more of a criminal than the literal criminal.  It boggles the mind.
[/quote]


Hi Sol,

I'm actually not at all surprised that mass propaganda has worked again. My first shock was in  the 2004 General Election, where John Kerry (Vietnam Veteran a Bronze Star, a Silver Star, and with 3 purple hearts to his name) was "swift-boated" by a devastating campaign to attack his biggest strength.  Of course, his opponent had an illustrious career in the Texas National Guard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy

I think if you just don't like someone (often times for political or religious reasons), you'll believe anything other people say about them. The inverse if also very true. If you love them, they can do no wrong. I think this explains why the candidate who wins is usually they person you the general population would rather have a beer with.

JGS

SisterX

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #455 on: December 09, 2016, 03:22:03 PM »
Just going to leave this here....

https://corrupt.af/

I saw nothing in there I found particularly damning, yet.  I don't contest that Trump is an SOB, but he doesn't (yet) have a history of graft and foreign company favoritism, at least not that rises to the level that American servicemen and/or diplomats have died.  If I had a better choice, I would have took it.  It wouldn't have mattered, of course, who I personally voted for.  The electoral college doesn't work that way.

I might point out that less than half of the voting age public voted at all, so even if the popular vote was the important part, Hillary wouldn't have more than 25% verifiable support.

Actually, not true. If you remove the percentage of adults who could not vote (felons, immigrants) then roughly 2/3 of eligible voters did, in fact, vote. (And likely would have been higher if every state had mandatory mail-in ballots the way many more progressive states do, so people don't get turned off by standing in line for hours. Also, if every company had to give the time off to vote.) And HRC won about 25.5% of the vote, while Trump won about 24%.

I'm sorry, I can't find the article where I was just reading about this.

Quidnon?

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #456 on: December 09, 2016, 03:26:54 PM »

Not according to the FBI nor multiple lawyers.

It's not the opinion of the FBI, nor of any lawyers you may cite, that I care about.  It is my opinion that I care about, and I did have a clearance of my own once upon a time, and I know that if I had done a fraction of the things that Hillary has admitted to, I'd have been in a dark hole for a long time.

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #457 on: December 10, 2016, 04:53:19 PM »

Not according to the FBI nor multiple lawyers.

It's not the opinion of the FBI, nor of any lawyers you may cite, that I care about.  It is my opinion that I care about, and I did have a clearance of my own once upon a time, and I know that if I had done a fraction of the things that Hillary has admitted to, I'd have been in a dark hole for a long time.

So basically, "there are no facts anymore."

You do realize that she wasn't the only Sec of State to use personal email this way, right? The Republicans just didn't care about it when it was their guy doing it. Once again, HRC had an unprecedented number of accusations brought against her and none of them came to anything. If you don't think Republicans would have jumped all over that if there was any shred of actual wrongdoing, think again.

Also, I love the people who are trying to call HRC "corrupt" or "treasonous" when Trump was the one openly inviting Russia to interfere in the elections, and actually was helped by them. Not only that, but he's all set to nominate the CEO of Exxon to Secretary of State when--surprise!--Tillerson was given the Order of Friendship by Russia and stands to make a boatload of money drilling in the Arctic. Which he can't currently do because of U.S. sanctions and laws. So now he gets to be the one shaping foreign policy. Yay! Aren't you just so glad you voted against corruption?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #458 on: December 10, 2016, 07:53:07 PM »
Not according to the FBI nor multiple lawyers.

Despite popular perception, Clinton has committed no crimes.  She hasn't even been charged with anything, much less convicted.  She has never been sued.  She has never settled a lawsuit.  All of her activities, even the ones people don't like, have been above board and publicly disclosed.

By contrast, Trump has been involved in roughly three thousand lawsuits, many of which he has lost.  He currently has at least 75 pending lawsuits involving ongoing litigation.  He is verifiably corrupt, as demonstrated by all those court documents describing the cases he has lost (not settled, but lost because he did something illegal).   

Trump is literally a criminal.  Clinton is not.  And yet somehow, people voted for the criminal because they thought the nonc-criminal was more of a criminal than the literal criminal.  It boggles the mind.

Or they thought that Clinton would be even worse for the country, or for them personally, than a corrupt criminal business mogul. And that thought is scary. I mean, she literally lost to Donald Trump. It doesn't get any worse than that.

Daleth

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #459 on: December 11, 2016, 08:04:46 AM »
Mishandling email and not following processes are not crimes.  That would be why the FBI recommended no criminal charges be filed against her.

As a sitting officer in the executive branch of government, it actually is

No, it's not. FBI Director Comey said so himself, and we all know where he stands--he would have loved to be able to charge her with a crime.

the very real evidence of graft, access & favoritism selling to foreign companies & powers with interests under the preview of the Secretary of State; that I found unforgivable.  We used to call that "treason".

No, we never called that treason. The U.S. Constitution states, "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." (Const. Art. III, s. 3).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii
We have never had a different definition of treason, unless by "we" you mean "the human race, including other countries at other points in history." Which I'm pretty sure isn't your definition of "we."

Graft, access, favoritism and selling to foreign companies and "foreign powers" (whatever that means) aren't treason. But giving "aid and comfort" to the enemies of the U.S.--not foreign companies, and not foreign powers UNLESS they are enemies of the U.S.--is treason. So you must really hate Putin's girlfriend, Donald Trump...

If you think that's fake news, there is nothing I could say to move your position. 

Yes there is: provide credible sources and/or direct evidence for your claim. That's what you haven't done, and if you try, you'll find you can't do, because there are none.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 08:06:20 AM by Daleth »

Daleth

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #460 on: December 11, 2016, 08:15:59 AM »
As long as people keep insisting they need to vote one of the two people most likely to win, there will never be a viable third party. 

No one is insisting you have to vote for one of THE TWO people most likely to win. You're inserting the "two" there. If the Greens, Libertarians or whoever else could run an actual VIABLE candidate, then we might have three people who could win. And then I would be saying to vote for one of those three, and not for some idiot who doesn't know what Aleppo is, or some antivax doctor whose only political experience is a couple of years as the Town Meeting Representative of some small New England town.

The libertarian party has won some judgeships and state races.  They keep calling, you're just not listening.

They keep prank calling with morons on the line who ask, "What is Aleppo?" I salute their efforts to win judgeships and state races, I truly and unironically do. I hope the Greens are doing the same. But see... that is THE FIRST STEP in building a viable political party: getting people into positions where they can gain experience and have some influence in government. You have to do that over and over, for years and years, and as your people gain experience and renown, you have them run for higher offices.

That's how you build a track record. Without a track record, no one is going to give your party a lot of power. You'll win a few hundred thousand votes here and there, maybe a couple of million votes every four years... but wow, what an incredible waste of money and time, working so hard to get a couple of million votes and then disappear again.

To build a viable party, you have to start small, do the work for a long period of time, gain experience, rise in the ranks, and proceed gradually. It's not glamorous. It's not sexy. And apparently the Libertarians and Greens only want to do glamorous and sexy things, not real, hard, everyday work.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 08:17:30 AM by Daleth »

radram

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #461 on: December 11, 2016, 08:56:07 AM »
As long as people keep insisting they need to vote one of the two people most likely to win, there will never be a viable third party. 

No one is insisting you have to vote for one of THE TWO people most likely to win. You're inserting the "two" there. If the Greens, Libertarians or whoever else could run an actual VIABLE candidate, then we might have three people who could win. And then I would be saying to vote for one of those three, and not for some idiot who doesn't know what Aleppo is, or some antivax doctor whose only political experience is a couple of years as the Town Meeting Representative of some small New England town.

The libertarian party has won some judgeships and state races.  They keep calling, you're just not listening.

They keep prank calling with morons on the line who ask, "What is Aleppo?" I salute their efforts to win judgeships and state races, I truly and unironically do. I hope the Greens are doing the same. But see... that is THE FIRST STEP in building a viable political party: getting people into positions where they can gain experience and have some influence in government. You have to do that over and over, for years and years, and as your people gain experience and renown, you have them run for higher offices.

That's how you build a track record. Without a track record, no one is going to give your party a lot of power. You'll win a few hundred thousand votes here and there, maybe a couple of million votes every four years... but wow, what an incredible waste of money and time, working so hard to get a couple of million votes and then disappear again.

To build a viable party, you have to start small, do the work for a long period of time, gain experience, rise in the ranks, and proceed gradually. It's not glamorous. It's not sexy. And apparently the Libertarians and Greens only want to do glamorous and sexy things, not real, hard, everyday work.

That is one way. Another way is to just take over one of the 2 parties in power.  See Tea Party, or Alt-Right, or whomever is next. Greens, libertarians, et. all. have been around way longer that the tea's and alt's, but hold no power compared to them.  They could learn something from them if they cared to pay attention.  If only there was a struggling party trying to find themselves that the greens or libertarians could infiltrate and control.

Malaysia41

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #462 on: December 11, 2016, 09:23:03 AM »
<rant> WTAF? Republican leadership hates democrats so much they're comfortable being cozy with Putin? 

The knee jerk  reaction from the incoming administration - zero pause - zero consideration - blaming the CIA for Iraq intel (hint - it was Cheney/Wolfowitz/neocon crew NOT CIA) tells me that this administration, and doormat congressmen don't give AF.

It used to be that a foreign threat would bring the parties together. But the hate is apparently too great. I cannot believe the shit I'm reading. (no my news source isn't rebuplicansRlizardBrains.org.co ) </rant>

I'd post this rant on Facebook but my family is beyond discussing politics with. Many avoid discussing actual issues that matter, and instead frame their replies as if I'm nothing more than a sore loser.  "Hey, your guy lost, I get it, you're upset." No - I was never on a god damned team. I just want competent governance. Shit's getting fucking silly. And meanwhile, CO2 emissions are on track to accelerate now. 

The likelihood that RNC emails were hacked and NOT released gives me a very bad feeling. As if post-truthiness normalization wasn't bad enough.

How do my pro-military Republican family members square the Russian involvement here? I think I'm fairly open minded, but even MY mental framework isn't THAT flexible.

Okay, now /rant.

Maybe I should have put this on my journal. But I'm sick of staying calm and silent in public. Staying in my safe space is accomplishing nothing. Not that this post will accomplish anything. Except as an avenue to vent. (thanks for lending an ear).

edit: changed 'fact' to 'likelihood' regarding RNC email hacks. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 09:27:39 AM by Malaysia41 »

Glenstache

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #463 on: December 11, 2016, 10:51:43 AM »
<rant> WTAF? Republican leadership hates democrats so much they're comfortable being cozy with Putin? 

The knee jerk  reaction from the incoming administration - zero pause - zero consideration - blaming the CIA for Iraq intel (hint - it was Cheney/Wolfowitz/neocon crew NOT CIA) tells me that this administration, and doormat congressmen don't give AF.

It used to be that a foreign threat would bring the parties together. But the hate is apparently too great. I cannot believe the shit I'm reading. (no my news source isn't rebuplicansRlizardBrains.org.co ) </rant>

I'd post this rant on Facebook but my family is beyond discussing politics with. Many avoid discussing actual issues that matter, and instead frame their replies as if I'm nothing more than a sore loser.  "Hey, your guy lost, I get it, you're upset." No - I was never on a god damned team. I just want competent governance. Shit's getting fucking silly. And meanwhile, CO2 emissions are on track to accelerate now. 

The likelihood that RNC emails were hacked and NOT released gives me a very bad feeling. As if post-truthiness normalization wasn't bad enough.

How do my pro-military Republican family members square the Russian involvement here? I think I'm fairly open minded, but even MY mental framework isn't THAT flexible.

Okay, now /rant.

Maybe I should have put this on my journal. But I'm sick of staying calm and silent in public. Staying in my safe space is accomplishing nothing. Not that this post will accomplish anything. Except as an avenue to vent. (thanks for lending an ear).

edit: changed 'fact' to 'likelihood' regarding RNC email hacks.
Yep, and don't forget to add how many of Trump's current and former team are cozy with Putin.

Paul Manafort- awkward payments from Putin puppet govt in Ukraine
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-making-inquiry-ex-trump-campaign-manager-s-foreign-ties-n675881

Tillerson as pick for Secretary of state has some nice photo ops with Putin
http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-candidate-for-state-has-close-ties-to-vladimir-putin-1481033938

Michael Flynn had a nice dinner with Putin :
http://www.vox.com/2016/11/17/13673280/mike-flynn-trump-new-national-security-adviser-russia-isis-obama-clinton-turkey

And what Trump himself has said about Putin:
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-russia-vladimir-putin-bromance-2016-12
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 10:57:58 AM by Glenstache »

jrhampt

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #464 on: December 11, 2016, 12:32:09 PM »
<rant> WTAF? Republican leadership hates democrats so much they're comfortable being cozy with Putin? 

The knee jerk  reaction from the incoming administration - zero pause - zero consideration - blaming the CIA for Iraq intel (hint - it was Cheney/Wolfowitz/neocon crew NOT CIA) tells me that this administration, and doormat congressmen don't give AF.

It used to be that a foreign threat would bring the parties together. But the hate is apparently too great. I cannot believe the shit I'm reading. (no my news source isn't rebuplicansRlizardBrains.org.co ) </rant>

I'd post this rant on Facebook but my family is beyond discussing politics with. Many avoid discussing actual issues that matter, and instead frame their replies as if I'm nothing more than a sore loser.  "Hey, your guy lost, I get it, you're upset." No - I was never on a god damned team. I just want competent governance. Shit's getting fucking silly. And meanwhile, CO2 emissions are on track to accelerate now. 

The likelihood that RNC emails were hacked and NOT released gives me a very bad feeling. As if post-truthiness normalization wasn't bad enough.

How do my pro-military Republican family members square the Russian involvement here? I think I'm fairly open minded, but even MY mental framework isn't THAT flexible.

Okay, now /rant.

Maybe I should have put this on my journal. But I'm sick of staying calm and silent in public. Staying in my safe space is accomplishing nothing. Not that this post will accomplish anything. Except as an avenue to vent. (thanks for lending an ear).

edit: changed 'fact' to 'likelihood' regarding RNC email hacks.
Yep, and don't forget to add how many of Trump's current and former team are cozy with Putin.

Paul Manafort- awkward payments from Putin puppet govt in Ukraine
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-making-inquiry-ex-trump-campaign-manager-s-foreign-ties-n675881

Tillerson as pick for Secretary of state has some nice photo ops with Putin
http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-candidate-for-state-has-close-ties-to-vladimir-putin-1481033938

Michael Flynn had a nice dinner with Putin :
http://www.vox.com/2016/11/17/13673280/mike-flynn-trump-new-national-security-adviser-russia-isis-obama-clinton-turkey

And what Trump himself has said about Putin:
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-russia-vladimir-putin-bromance-2016-12

Yeah.  I'm in an impotent rage over this too, but there are very few Republicans willing to put country ahead of party and self at this point.  We've got graham and McCain left with some integrity, but it seems that's about it.  Most of my republican friends on fb seem to be buying the president elect'a lie that it's a democratic conspiracy theory being pushed by sore losers.  It's very difficult to argue with these people because they think EVERYONE is lying (except Trump).  🙄

Glenstache

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #465 on: December 11, 2016, 09:34:38 PM »
Remember a month ago when Trump was repeatedly saying "The election is rigged. it's rigged. Trust me, it's rigged."?

calimom

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #466 on: December 11, 2016, 10:21:22 PM »
Remember a month ago when Trump was repeatedly saying "The election is rigged. it's rigged. Trust me, it's rigged."?

We should have listened to him instead of shrugging it off and laughing.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #467 on: December 12, 2016, 01:52:19 AM »
Remember a month ago when Trump was repeatedly saying "The election is rigged. it's rigged. Trust me, it's rigged."?

We should have listened to him instead of shrugging it off and laughing.

Good lord... what else has he been right about?

sol

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #468 on: December 12, 2016, 08:52:59 AM »
Remember a month ago when Trump was repeatedly saying "The election is rigged. it's rigged. Trust me, it's rigged."?

We should probably be clear about what we mean by "rigged".

When Trump claimed the election was rigged he was widely understood to mean that he expected to lose because of voting irregularities.  Specifically, he said he was concerned about illegal voting and voter fraud.  While hacking of electronic voting machines or deliberate miscounting of cast ballots are always a possibility, that's not what he was worried about when he claimed it was rigged.

And that's not what Russia is accused of doing, either.  It doesn't look like Russia "hacked" the election in that sense, with the possible exception of two or three states.  Instead, they used pretty standard intelligence and propaganda techniques to sway the American electorate, who would then vote in the way they had been swayed to vote and would have their votes counted correctly.  In this sense, Russia was acting more like a particularly devious superPAC, funneling unlimited foreign money into the election by hacking email accounts and then releasing selective portions of their stolen emails to the public via Wikileaks at strategically timed moments.  This is still 100% illegal, but it's not exactly "hacking the election" and I don't think it means the election was "rigged". 

The election was altered, sure, but that's the whole point of superPACS and Russia was just pretending to be one.  They have an interest in the US election just like every other superPAC does.  But swaying the election by convincing voters (even by illegal means) isn't itself illegal, as long as those voters are still allowed to vote and their votes are accurately counted.

So in this case it looks more like Russia used their state cybersecurity forces to hack into government email accounts to steal information, and then used that information to sway American voters.  Does that count as "rigging" the election?  It's clearly a case of a foreign power having undue influence on the election, but that doesn't rise to the level of WWIII provocation.  Countries sway elections in other countries all the time, though they usually use less illegal means to do it.

The only part of this that really concerns me is the apparent ties between the Russian hackers peddling this influence and the members of Trump's campaign team.  We don't usually allow our candidates to collaborate with superPACs and we certainly don't allow them to collaborate with hostile foreign powers trying to sway an election. 

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #469 on: December 12, 2016, 10:00:49 AM »
Remember a month ago when Trump was repeatedly saying "The election is rigged. it's rigged. Trust me, it's rigged."?

We should probably be clear about what we mean by "rigged".

When Trump claimed the election was rigged he was widely understood to mean that he expected to lose because of voting irregularities.  Specifically, he said he was concerned about illegal voting and voter fraud.  While hacking of electronic voting machines or deliberate miscounting of cast ballots are always a possibility, that's not what he was worried about when he claimed it was rigged.

And that's not what Russia is accused of doing, either.  It doesn't look like Russia "hacked" the election in that sense, with the possible exception of two or three states.  Instead, they used pretty standard intelligence and propaganda techniques to sway the American electorate, who would then vote in the way they had been swayed to vote and would have their votes counted correctly.  In this sense, Russia was acting more like a particularly devious superPAC, funneling unlimited foreign money into the election by hacking email accounts and then releasing selective portions of their stolen emails to the public via Wikileaks at strategically timed moments.  This is still 100% illegal, but it's not exactly "hacking the election" and I don't think it means the election was "rigged". 

The election was altered, sure, but that's the whole point of superPACS and Russia was just pretending to be one.  They have an interest in the US election just like every other superPAC does.  But swaying the election by convincing voters (even by illegal means) isn't itself illegal, as long as those voters are still allowed to vote and their votes are accurately counted.

So in this case it looks more like Russia used their state cybersecurity forces to hack into government email accounts to steal information, and then used that information to sway American voters.  Does that count as "rigging" the election?  It's clearly a case of a foreign power having undue influence on the election, but that doesn't rise to the level of WWIII provocation.  Countries sway elections in other countries all the time, though they usually use less illegal means to do it.

The only part of this that really concerns me is the apparent ties between the Russian hackers peddling this influence and the members of Trump's campaign team.  We don't usually allow our candidates to collaborate with superPACs and we certainly don't allow them to collaborate with hostile foreign powers trying to sway an election.

All of that is correct, as far as I know. However, the thread I was pulling at was that we have 1) a major candidate saying the election was rigged; 2) intelligence agencies saying that a foreign nation overtly tried to influence the election; 3) empirical evidence that some agency/group (also likely Russian) actively hacked the files of one the major parties and released the contents of only one.

Any single one of those indicates that there should be a non-partisan inquiry. The value in it is not necessarily to change the results (I don't think the electoral votes will change), but to maintain the credibility of our election. If we think there was tampering, we should understand it so that during the next election we don't see worse.

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #470 on: December 12, 2016, 10:16:06 AM »

All of that is correct, as far as I know. However, the thread I was pulling at was that we have 1) a major candidate saying the election was rigged; 2) intelligence agencies saying that a foreign nation overtly tried to influence the election; 3) empirical evidence that some agency/group (also likely Russian) actively hacked the files of one the major parties and released the contents of only one.

Any single one of those indicates that there should be a non-partisan inquiry. The value in it is not necessarily to change the results (I don't think the electoral votes will change), but to maintain the credibility of our election. If we think there was tampering, we should understand it so that during the next election we don't see worse.

Exactly. Trump could easily demand an inquiry and stand up to Russia without conceding the election or any of his authority. In fact, it would make him look like a much stronger leader to do so rather than falling back on his standard gaslighting tactics.

By the way, I started another thread to discuss this specific topic:

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/united-states-of-russia/msg1337795/#msg1337795

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #471 on: December 12, 2016, 12:26:01 PM »
Remember a month ago when Trump was repeatedly saying "The election is rigged. it's rigged. Trust me, it's rigged."?

We should probably be clear about what we mean by "rigged".

When Trump claimed the election was rigged he was widely understood to mean that he expected to lose because of voting irregularities.  Specifically, he said he was concerned about illegal voting and voter fraud.  While hacking of electronic voting machines or deliberate miscounting of cast ballots are always a possibility, that's not what he was worried about when he claimed it was rigged.

And that's not what Russia is accused of doing, either.  It doesn't look like Russia "hacked" the election in that sense, with the possible exception of two or three states.  Instead, they used pretty standard intelligence and propaganda techniques to sway the American electorate, who would then vote in the way they had been swayed to vote and would have their votes counted correctly.  In this sense, Russia was acting more like a particularly devious superPAC, funneling unlimited foreign money into the election by hacking email accounts and then releasing selective portions of their stolen emails to the public via Wikileaks at strategically timed moments.  This is still 100% illegal, but it's not exactly "hacking the election" and I don't think it means the election was "rigged". 

The election was altered, sure, but that's the whole point of superPACS and Russia was just pretending to be one.  They have an interest in the US election just like every other superPAC does.  But swaying the election by convincing voters (even by illegal means) isn't itself illegal, as long as those voters are still allowed to vote and their votes are accurately counted.

So in this case it looks more like Russia used their state cybersecurity forces to hack into government email accounts to steal information, and then used that information to sway American voters.  Does that count as "rigging" the election?  It's clearly a case of a foreign power having undue influence on the election, but that doesn't rise to the level of WWIII provocation.  Countries sway elections in other countries all the time, though they usually use less illegal means to do it.

The only part of this that really concerns me is the apparent ties between the Russian hackers peddling this influence and the members of Trump's campaign team.  We don't usually allow our candidates to collaborate with superPACs and we certainly don't allow them to collaborate with hostile foreign powers trying to sway an election.

Thank you, sir, for presenting the facts in a realistic manner.  Russia certainly did have a vested interest in the outcome of this election, for no other reason than Clinton's public statements concerning Russia along with the Obama Admin's machinations in nations that border Russia in the past several years.  The idea that Russia's military could fight a conventional war against the US at present is a bit ridiculous, simply because Russia's economy can't support any prolonged conflict like that.  But maybe ours can't either, hard to say with certainty.  But if you were to just look at the headlines and the first paragraph of most of these "news" reports (really, op-eds) an otherwise un-informed reader would come away with the idea that hackers, probably Russian, actually falsified the election results.  Our own government hasn't exactly stayed out of the elections of other nations, so I don't know how much of a complaint Trump can realistically make.

That said, I don't know how I feel about the methods by which those Wikileaks releases were obtained.  Yet, I haven't heard anyone claim that they were not real, or had otherwise been edited.

Quidnon?

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #472 on: December 12, 2016, 01:15:49 PM »
Mishandling email and not following processes are not crimes.  That would be why the FBI recommended no criminal charges be filed against her.

As a sitting officer in the executive branch of government, it actually is

No, it's not. FBI Director Comey said so himself, and we all know where he stands--he would have loved to be able to charge her with a crime.


He might yet, but the email server is a small issue.  A symptom, actually.  The charge of treason, if it ever comes, will be due to evidence gathered from recovered emails related to the Clinton Foundation and "pay for play", which might very well show she accepted money in exchange for political favors for foreign powers.  Perhaps that doesn't rise to treason in your mind, but some of those "donations" came from politically connected groups that openly hate the United States.  The existence of the email server wasn't the reason I voted against her.

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #473 on: December 12, 2016, 02:24:55 PM »
"pay for play", which might very well show she accepted money in exchange for political favors for foreign powers.  Perhaps that doesn't rise to treason in your mind, but some of those "donations" came from politically connected groups that openly hate the United States. 

Do you have the same concerns about pay to play with Trump's businesses being funded by Russian oligarchs and state owned banks?  How about his ongoing business deals with China? 

It seems to me, if you're concerned about a politician using their elected office for personal profit, that Trump would be the LAST person you would want in office.  The conflicts of interest between the country's best interests and his own pocketbook are almost too numerous to count.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:37:14 PM by sol »

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #474 on: December 12, 2016, 02:33:38 PM »
"pay for play", which might very well show she accepted money in exchange for political favors for foreign powers.  Perhaps that doesn't rise to treason in your mind, but some of those "donations" came from politically connected groups that openly hate the United States. 

Do you have the same concerns about pay to play with Trump's businesses being funded by Russian oligarchs and state owned banks?  How about his ongoing business deals with China? 

Well, it seems he hasn't let his business deals with China keep him from pissing them off royally only a month after being elected.  Maybe he's a criminal mastermind, and it's all a cover, but as far as China is concerned, it seems he's done the opposite of favor them. (To date.)

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #475 on: December 12, 2016, 02:40:10 PM »
"pay for play", which might very well show she accepted money in exchange for political favors for foreign powers.  Perhaps that doesn't rise to treason in your mind, but some of those "donations" came from politically connected groups that openly hate the United States. 

Do you have the same concerns about pay to play with Trump's businesses being funded by Russian oligarchs and state owned banks?  How about his ongoing business deals with China? 

Well, it seems he hasn't let his business deals with China keep him from pissing them off royally only a month after being elected.  Maybe he's a criminal mastermind, and it's all a cover, but as far as China is concerned, it seems he's done the opposite of favor them. (To date.)

Or he's got business deals in Taiwan.

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #476 on: December 12, 2016, 02:40:57 PM »
Or he's got business deals in Taiwan.

That would clearly make more sense to me, though I have not seen any evidence of that.

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #477 on: December 12, 2016, 02:49:05 PM »
Well, it seems he hasn't let his business deals with China keep him from pissing them off royally only a month after being elected.  Maybe he's a criminal mastermind, and it's all a cover, but as far as China is concerned, it seems he's done the opposite of favor them. (To date.)

You don't think this is just a negotiation tactic?  He did "write" a book called The Art of the Deal.

I think it's an opening gambit, one he can get away with because he doesn't have any power or responsibility yet.  In a year China will approve his daughter's corporate license and his new hotel in Shanghai, and he'll publicly support the one China policy while denying he ever questioned it and commending the Chinese government.  He's just setting the negotiating stage with negative expectations, so he can walk away with a personal win without actually changing anything.

His cabinet appointments followed the same pattern.  First nominate a homeless cannibal meth addict.  Then nominate Hitler's ghost.  Third nominate your son in law and everyone is suddenly relieved to get nepotism and incompetence instead of active evil.  We've used up all of our outrage on the first two picks.  It's all a game of expectations, and I think he's deliberately rocking the boat today, while bearing no responsibility, because be knows that will make it easier to get what he really wants.

*edited to note that Trump didn't really write a book.  Reading is hard!  Writing is harderer!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 06:17:51 PM by sol »

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jrhampt

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #479 on: December 12, 2016, 02:52:53 PM »
Or he's got business deals in Taiwan.

That would clearly make more sense to me, though I have not seen any evidence of that.

Yes, it's all speculation at this point since we don't know the extent of his business holdings.  I did see some reports that a sales manager had made some recent visits to Taiwan, but in my view the more likely (although by no means mutually exclusive) theory is that he's simply a tactless idiot who likes insulting people (and presumably countries now, too).  ETA that I also enjoy Sol's theory.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 02:54:24 PM by jrhampt »

RangerOne

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #480 on: December 12, 2016, 05:41:00 PM »
Well, it seems he hasn't let his business deals with China keep him from pissing them off royally only a month after being elected.  Maybe he's a criminal mastermind, and it's all a cover, but as far as China is concerned, it seems he's done the opposite of favor them. (To date.)

You don't think this is just a negotiation tactic?  He did write a book called The Art of the Deal.

I think it's an opening gambit, one he can get away with because he doesn't have any power or responsibility yet.  In a year China will approve his daughter's corporate license and his new hotel in Shanghai, and he'll publicly support the one China policy while denying he ever questioned it and commending the Chinese government.  He's just setting the negotiating stage with negative expectations, so he can walk away with a personal win without actually changing anything.

His cabinet appointments followed the same pattern.  First nominate a homeless cannibal meth addict.  Then nominate Hitler's ghost.  Third nominate your son in law and everyone is suddenly relieved to get nepotism and incompetence instead of active evil.  We've used up all of our outrage on the first two picks.  It's all a game of expectations, and I think he's deliberately rocking the boat today, while bearing no responsibility, because be knows that will make it easier to get what he really wants.

Nice, but even as a joke I wouldn't say that Trump wrote a book. He paid a really good writer to produce a fiction piece about how he views himself and his historical deals. When really it was all bullshit and the only thing that ever helped Trump make good deals were, his daddies good name, his daddies fat wallet, a broken clock being right at least twice a day and possibly a few of his kids saving his remaining business ventures from him.

 I'll give him star power too, he knows how to keep his name in the media which in itself is worth a lot of money. But that kind of skill belongs to a whole slew of worthless stars.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #481 on: December 13, 2016, 04:23:05 AM »
Or he's got business deals in Taiwan.

That would clearly make more sense to me, though I have not seen any evidence of that.

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2016%2Fdec%2F03%2Ftrumps-taiwan-phone-call-preceded-by-hotel-development-inquiry

Or (and apologies for the snark):
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Trump+business+taiwan

Stow the snark and the trolling.

This source is a fucking joke. I mean, with all the fake news floating around, I would expect people to do a basic bit of critical review of the sources they are getting their information; this article is such bullshit that it's not worth quoting.

Quote
“One thing quite sure from her side was that she would like to bring the Trump corporation here to build the hotel,” said the official, who did not know if Chen had a Trump Organization business card."

Quote
Chen’s association with the Trump Organization remains unconfirmed and little more is known about her, although she is believed to travel between Taiwan and the US.

Do you have anything more? Or anything as reputable as the Wall Street Journal which states: 

Quote
A representative for Trump Hotels said there had been no authorized visits to Taiwan on behalf of its brand for development purposes, nor are there any active conversations.

Quote
Reached Saturday by The Wall Street Journal, Ms. Chen, who is also known as Charlyne Chen, said she’s not a Trump employee.

I mean.... really people.


sol

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #482 on: December 13, 2016, 08:14:55 AM »
This source is a fucking joke.

That's kind of the point, though.  Donald trump is a real estate developer who is ALWAYS trying to build or license a new project.  The conflicts of interest are inherent to his identity.  We don't need a source or a confirmed interaction to know that he wants to build a hotel in Taiwan, he has always wanted to build a hotel in Taiwan and everywhere else.  He comes with built in leverage for everyone to use.

He is currently working with the governments of roughly 35 nations on business deals that he personally profits from. He always wants to do more.  A person with those interests at heart cannot lead America.  He needs to give up full control of all of his businesses if he is serious about this job.

jrhampt

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #483 on: December 13, 2016, 08:21:04 AM »

former player

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #484 on: December 13, 2016, 08:37:48 AM »
Trump giving up "full control" of his businesses is useless as long as he or his family retain any interest - every Trump business is branded and an obvious sources of a conflict of interest whatever alternative structures are put in place.

The only answer is to sell every existing Trump business and put the proceeds in a blind trust managed by independent trustees.  Anything else is an existing or potential source of corruption or undue influence.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #485 on: December 13, 2016, 08:47:11 AM »
He needs to give up full control of all of his businesses if he is serious about this job.

Would this really be enough? Even if he had no control over the projects his company takes on, wouldn't he still profit when they build more hotels etc., leaving an indirect conflict of interest?

Edit: Former Player addressed this.

jrhampt

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #486 on: December 13, 2016, 09:24:16 AM »
Realistically, I believe all this (conflicts of interest) is a moot point.  We basically said we didn't care about that when we elected him.

Meowkins

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #487 on: December 13, 2016, 09:59:01 AM »
Are we still arguing about whether it should have been Trump or Clinton? Look, honestly, who gives a shit. Trump is President. Hillary won't be. Ever.

Apathetic, uninformed brats of my generation sat this vote out or threw the swing states. Poor, mostly old Americans so desperate for a solution as to suffer bald faced lies and capitulate (at best ignore) basic American values voted. SO here we are.

Now we have this toucan as our President who mouths off his verbal diarrhea at the rate of a senile chimpanzee while he appoints complete lunatics to public office. Hate crimes are up. The alt-right feels empowered, and of course they do, when Breitbart is seen as legitimate instead of the soaking wad of toilet paper it is. But you know what's even fucking sadder? Our foreign relationships, our domestic and climate environmental concerns, will be irrevocably damaged.

Fuck Trump. Fuck all his goons.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #488 on: December 13, 2016, 10:29:19 AM »
Are we still arguing about whether it should have been Trump or Clinton? Look, honestly, who gives a shit. Trump is President. Hillary won't be. Ever.

Apathetic, uninformed brats of my generation sat this vote out or threw the swing states. Poor, mostly old Americans so desperate for a solution as to suffer bald faced lies and capitulate (at best ignore) basic American values voted. SO here we are.

Now we have this toucan as our President who mouths off his verbal diarrhea at the rate of a senile chimpanzee while he appoints complete lunatics to public office. Hate crimes are up. The alt-right feels empowered, and of course they do, when Breitbart is seen as legitimate instead of the soaking wad of toilet paper it is. But you know what's even fucking sadder? Our foreign relationships, our domestic and climate environmental concerns, will be irrevocably damaged.

Fuck Trump. Fuck all his goons.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27738018/ns/us_news-life/t/obama-election-spurs-race-threats-crimes/#.WFAvlE2Qxow

Apparently they felt empowered after Obama's election, as well. Or it could be that certain segments of the population will be unhappy and do offensive shit no matter who is the president. Who knows?

Meowkins

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #489 on: December 13, 2016, 01:19:24 PM »
Are we still arguing about whether it should have been Trump or Clinton? Look, honestly, who gives a shit. Trump is President. Hillary won't be. Ever.

Apathetic, uninformed brats of my generation sat this vote out or threw the swing states. Poor, mostly old Americans so desperate for a solution as to suffer bald faced lies and capitulate (at best ignore) basic American values voted. SO here we are.

Now we have this toucan as our President who mouths off his verbal diarrhea at the rate of a senile chimpanzee while he appoints complete lunatics to public office. Hate crimes are up. The alt-right feels empowered, and of course they do, when Breitbart is seen as legitimate instead of the soaking wad of toilet paper it is. But you know what's even fucking sadder? Our foreign relationships, our domestic and climate environmental concerns, will be irrevocably damaged.

Fuck Trump. Fuck all his goons.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27738018/ns/us_news-life/t/obama-election-spurs-race-threats-crimes/#.WFAvlE2Qxow

Apparently they felt empowered after Obama's election, as well. Or it could be that certain segments of the population will be unhappy and do offensive shit no matter who is the president. Who knows?

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/alt-right-movement-tries-to-rebrand-itself/

GuitarStv

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #490 on: December 13, 2016, 01:38:28 PM »
Are we still arguing about whether it should have been Trump or Clinton? Look, honestly, who gives a shit. Trump is President. Hillary won't be. Ever.

Apathetic, uninformed brats of my generation sat this vote out or threw the swing states. Poor, mostly old Americans so desperate for a solution as to suffer bald faced lies and capitulate (at best ignore) basic American values voted. SO here we are.

Now we have this toucan as our President who mouths off his verbal diarrhea at the rate of a senile chimpanzee while he appoints complete lunatics to public office. Hate crimes are up. The alt-right feels empowered, and of course they do, when Breitbart is seen as legitimate instead of the soaking wad of toilet paper it is. But you know what's even fucking sadder? Our foreign relationships, our domestic and climate environmental concerns, will be irrevocably damaged.

Fuck Trump. Fuck all his goons.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27738018/ns/us_news-life/t/obama-election-spurs-race-threats-crimes/#.WFAvlE2Qxow

Apparently they felt empowered after Obama's election, as well. Or it could be that certain segments of the population will be unhappy and do offensive shit no matter who is the president. Who knows?

Given reported stories after the election of Trump, and reports after the election of Obama, the 'certain segment' of the population you're talking about appears to be 'white people'.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #491 on: December 13, 2016, 01:46:10 PM »
Given reported stories after the election of Trump, and reports after the election of Obama, the 'certain segment' of the population you're talking about appears to be 'white people'.

I'm not even certain how to respond to this racist remark....

Meowkins

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #492 on: December 13, 2016, 01:48:01 PM »
Given reported stories after the election of Trump, and reports after the election of Obama, the 'certain segment' of the population you're talking about appears to be 'white people'.

I'm not even certain how to respond to this racist remark....

LOL.

Well, white supremacists have no problem identifying themselves as being white, right? That's kind of the whole point, bruh.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #493 on: December 13, 2016, 02:11:38 PM »
Given reported stories after the election of Trump, and reports after the election of Obama, the 'certain segment' of the population you're talking about appears to be 'white people'.

I'm not even certain how to respond to this racist remark....

LOL.

Well, white supremacists have no problem identifying themselves as being white, right? That's kind of the whole point, bruh.

Sure. White supremacists are clearly the majority of the ones causing problems; and it doesn't seem to matter who is elected. Democrat or republican, Obama or Trump, they are always unhappy and dicking around.  But to blame all white people as if they were all white supremacists is pretty off-base, which is what I was referring to.

Meowkins

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #494 on: December 13, 2016, 02:27:32 PM »
Given reported stories after the election of Trump, and reports after the election of Obama, the 'certain segment' of the population you're talking about appears to be 'white people'.

I'm not even certain how to respond to this racist remark....

LOL.

Well, white supremacists have no problem identifying themselves as being white, right? That's kind of the whole point, bruh.

Sure. White supremacists are clearly the majority of the ones causing problems; and it doesn't seem to matter who is elected. Democrat or republican, Obama or Trump, they are always unhappy and dicking around.  But to blame all white people as if they were all white supremacists is pretty off-base, which is what I was referring to.

You're absolutely right, the alt-right are a diverse group of voices and the legitimizing of their voice by placing one of their own in the white house happens every presidency.

Are you even trying.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #495 on: December 13, 2016, 02:32:08 PM »

You're absolutely right, the alt-right are a diverse group of voices and the legitimizing of their voice by placing one of their own in the white house happens every presidency.

Are you even trying.

I'm confused about your argument: Are you stating that there would be a reduction in 'hate crimes' (or whatever the term the study uses) if someone else had been elected? Because that is not borne out by statistics.

Meowkins

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #496 on: December 13, 2016, 02:44:27 PM »

You're absolutely right, the alt-right are a diverse group of voices and the legitimizing of their voice by placing one of their own in the white house happens every presidency.

Are you even trying.

I'm confused about your argument: Are you stating that there would be a reduction in 'hate crimes' (or whatever the term the study uses) if someone else had been elected? Because that is not borne out by statistics.

I'm confused about your confusion regarding my argument and also your reference to a study. Is it in the link you sent me? Because I am not referring to your link, especially if it's with regards to reported hate crimes being the only indicator of rising white nationalism and xenophobia, because that is truly absurd. You might want to read the link I sent, if you have any interest in actually admitting to being wrong if presented with evidence to that fact.

I was responding with deep sarcasm at your belief that GuitarStv's remark was anywhere near racist. It's not racist to suggest that a segment of the population that perpetuates hate crimes against people of color are white. That doesn't even make any sense. Especially if people espousing, say, xenophobic ideas, self-identify as white as a point of pride and a justification of their behavior.

RangerOne

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #497 on: December 13, 2016, 02:53:33 PM »
Their is no denying that there are distinct elements of racism and white nationalism that are tied to the excitement behind a Trump win. This is not unique to Trump and is a common and even driving element in some equivalent right wing political movements in many European countries experiencing similar popular revolts against the center left and center right.

Trump was happy enough to pull in people who were mostly in it for white nationalism as well as the rest and ride the populist right wing wave. As a result his win signals a great deal more discomfort and fear for minorities, especially Muslims and  undocumented people.

This of course is no the only element, there is also a major status and fiscal component to why anti establishment right wing populist wave gained so much traction. It clearly was effective on the left as well as Bernie Sanders did surprisingly well on a popular platform turning its back on center left politics. Its a shame the DNC's tactics were able to squelch the movement as I really do think that a populist left movement would have killed Trumps right wing version. And that is a testament to the fact that as you say a vast majority of white Americans are not on board with full blown white nationalism.

Sadly for lefties the Democrats are working over time to keep a popular left movement from overtaking their party and they are primed to put up another POS center left Hillary clone likely to lose to Trump at the 4 year mark.

The more the centrist politicians try to fight to keep things as they are the more popular movements will continue to fracture our existing parties and the more anti-establishment politicians we will likely elect until we see some kind of capitulation or change. There is just no way to keep the population happy with the current levels of income inequality and the loss of meaningful jobs and wage growth.

Malloy

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #498 on: December 13, 2016, 03:09:56 PM »
How can we reason with people like this?  Is scorn not the appropriate emotion to feel?

http://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/13/13848794/kentucky-obamacare-trump

Behold how she begrudges gifts to the "poorest kids" because they use food stamps! Even Ebenezer Scrooge would say "damn, that's cold." But she's not against the concept of help in general, she just wants it to flow directly into her pockets.

Atkins felt like this happened a lot to her: that she and her husband have worked most their lives but don’t seem to get nearly as much help as the poorer people she knows. She told a story about when she used to work as a school secretary: “They had a Christmas program. Some of the area programs would talk to teachers, and ask for a list of their poorest kids and get them clothes and toys and stuff. They’re not the ones who need help. They’re the ones getting the welfare and food stamps. I’m the one who is the working poor.”

Social services are terrible, except when she needs them:

Oller had told me earlier that she had enrolled on Medicaid for a few months, right before she started this job. She was taking some time off to care for her husband, who has cancer and was in chemotherapy treatment. I asked how she felt about enrolling in a program she sometimes criticizes.

“Oh, no,” she said quickly. “I worked my whole life, so I know I paid into it. I just felt like it was a time that I needed it. That’s what the system is set up for.”


Trump is the standard bearer for the negative nellie portion of the electorate that loves to be the victim.  They are looking at your cookie half and, if they think that you got one crumb more they did, will complain about it for hours.  Even if they weren't hungry and didn't want the cookie in the first place.  He's the president who represents the type of person WHO BEGRUDGES CHRISTMAS GIFTS TO POOR CHILDREN.  There are so many times in the last eight years that I've tried to live my life by Obama's example.  His character is such an inspiration.   Who is inspired by Trump?  These people.

Quidnon?

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Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #499 on: December 13, 2016, 06:13:26 PM »
"pay for play", which might very well show she accepted money in exchange for political favors for foreign powers.  Perhaps that doesn't rise to treason in your mind, but some of those "donations" came from politically connected groups that openly hate the United States. 

Do you have the same concerns about pay to play with Trump's businesses being funded by Russian oligarchs and state owned banks?  How about his ongoing business deals with China? 


Yes, but there is a caveat there also.  Clinton has always been a political power broker, that is all she really knows, so the brokering of power is what I would have expected.  With Trump, even corrupt business deals further ingrain the US into foreign economies, which tends to discourage military conflicts.  This is one of the hidden reasons that Bill Clinton declared China "Most Favored Trade Nation" back in the 90's over the howls of the Republican held house.  The rising economic stature of China, with the potential size of their military, could eventually become a real conventional military power.  We wouldn't have wanted China's economy to grow to such an extent without some portion of their new middle class's prosperity tied into the US economy.  I view this kind of thing to be a more likely outcome from Trump's likely style of self-interest, another reason I can provide for voting for him.  He certainly is a selfish asshole, but sometimes that is exactly the kind of person you want as a president.  He is not lying when he says that he will put America first; whether or not you like his idea of America, odds are high that the vast majority of Americans will benefit to some degree.  Hell, I already have.  My investments are up about 5% since the election, which even I didn't expect.  As you have noted, he expressed his perspectives well in The Art of the Deal, including his intentions to run for office one day.  What does the guy that has everything buy himself for Christmas?  Power.  That is how the world really works, it's always been this way, democracy only makes it a bit more benign.  If I can't have whom I want holding the power (which would be nobody, really) I certainly prefer someone who is less likely to make my own life more difficult.  I'm no racist, but I am a middle aged, straight white male.  How long did you guys really think that blaming white males for the world's problems was going to go unnoticed by that electoral demographic?  It seems like a large portion of that demographic is tired of hearing about their white privilege from their own kids when they come home from college, that they are likely paying the majority sum of the tuition.  If I have benefited from any white privilege, it would be a rounding error among all the hard work, and I have never done anything to contribute to any such social hierarchy; so hearing about such things from the left doesn't endear me towards their position.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!