Author Topic: Hey, Trump Voters  (Read 116991 times)

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Hey, Trump Voters
« on: November 11, 2016, 06:03:46 AM »
You've probably noticed a lot of your fellow Americans are scared. Particularly those who aren't white, straight, or Christian. Since you voted for Trump and you believe in him, I wanted to ask you instead of assuming: why do you think we should be celebrating with you? why shouldn't we be scared? what do you say to your fellow Trump voters who are now using his victory as a license to heckle and intimidate those of us who are minorities?

This isn't a trick question. I'm honestly asking. You're my fellow Americans, and I've always had faith in you.

redcedar

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 282
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2016, 06:31:50 AM »
What do you say to your fellow Trump voters who are now using his victory as a license to heckle and intimidate those of us who are minorities?

You're my fellow Americans, and I've always had faith in you.

These two statements are at odds with each other.

Schaefer Light

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1328
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2016, 06:34:10 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2016, 06:36:55 AM »
What do you say to your fellow Trump voters who are now using his victory as a license to heckle and intimidate those of us who are minorities?

You're my fellow Americans, and I've always had faith in you.

These two statements are at odds with each other.

No, they aren't. I'm hoping the few will be drowned out by the many. So I was hoping to reach out to you and get messages of encouragement that you think those acts are abhorrent.

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2016, 06:39:24 AM »
I didn't vote for him, but I'm all right with him so far.  I don't think you should be celebrating if you really didn't want him to win, that's kind of a given.  I'm not sure I'm qualified to tell you not to be scared, since I'm a heterosexual white guy.  I typically try to avoid telling minorities how to feel since it doesn't seem to end well for me.  I'll give you my perspective on it so far though.

His 100 day plan he released has nothing to do with minorities or non-heterosexuals.  Let's wait and see what he actually does, not what he was saying on the campaign trail.  In his acceptance speech he praised Hillary for a hard fought campaign, and thanked her for her years of service.  Don't be too worried that every single thing he said on the campaign trail is what he's going to act on.  With that being said, I'm not convinced he's quite as racist as he's made out to be.  A lot of the things that were cried out as racism were based on other issues.  He doesn't have much tact when speaking, and isn't too careful about phrasing, but I'd hardly compare him to a KKK member as many folks seem to be doing.

As for the people using this as license to heckle minorities, it's very unfortunate.  I'm not sure it's fair to blame people who voted for a presidential candidate because some of the other people who like him did some bad stuff, the same way it's not fair to blame Muslims for tacitly endorsing Muslim terrorists by also being Muslim (boy, hell of an example I picked, huh?).  It definitely sucks, but I have already noticed at least a few of these stories are turning out to be false.  I don't doubt it's happening, but be careful believing every "a trump supporter broke into my home and said "that's right bitch we won fuck you!" and then killed my dog" story.  There has been violence on both sides during this election, as there is with many divisive issues.

I kind of doubt that's very comforting, but there you go.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2016, 06:45:02 AM »
a little over half the country didnt want him to win.  why is the liberal side so entitled.  how many protest rallys and riots do you think happen if hillary wins.  i'm guessing few to none.  its messed up minorities are getting attacked.  its also messed minorities are making up stories of being attacked.  its more messed up there are protest riots.  he won, its not gonna be as bad as every liberal seems to think.  you dont have to celebrate but i wouldnt be outraged.  If the soon to be former liberal president hadnt done so many things by executive order and had made them actual laws going thru the checks and balance system you would have less to be worried about.  but since executive orders can easily be overturned by the next executive there will be faster than normal changes made.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3053
  • Location: Emmaus, PA
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2016, 06:46:15 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.

Philando Castile wasn't breaking any laws. He got killed in a blue state when the President was a Democrat, but I don't think Trump is going to rein in the out-of-control police. Then again I didn't have much faith that Clinton would have either.

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8888
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2016, 06:48:01 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
If you are LGBTQ you could worry that the government will make your marriage unlawful, sack you from your (military) job, provide federal funds for you to be re-educated or allow insurance companies to deny you coverage all your life because of "a pre-existing condition".

If you are a woman, you could worry that the government will remove your autonomy over your own body.

If you are a first generation citizen you could worry that your parents and older siblings will be deported.

If you are a racial or religious minority you could worry that the hate spewed out by the President gives license to all those lesser haters to abuse you.

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2016, 06:48:40 AM »
As for the people using this as license to heckle minorities, it's very unfortunate.  I'm not sure it's fair to blame people who voted for a presidential candidate because some of the other people who like him did some bad stuff, the same way it's not fair to blame Muslims for tacitly endorsing Muslim terrorists by also being Muslim (boy, hell of an example I picked, huh?). 

I can see that, definitely. It's just that he ran on such a vitriolic campaign, it's hard to separate the idea that people voted for him for those reasons. But I get what you're saying and your post was actually comforting in some ways.


a little over half the country didnt want him to win.  why is the liberal side so entitled.  how many protest rallys and riots do you think happen if hillary wins.  i'm guessing few to none.  its messed up minorities are getting attacked.  its also messed minorities are making up stories of being attacked.  its more messed up there are protest riots.  he won, its not gonna be as bad as every liberal seems to think.  you dont have to celebrate but i wouldnt be outraged.  If the soon to be former liberal president hadnt done so many things by executive order and had made them actual laws going thru the checks and balance system you would have less to be worried about.  but since executive orders can easily be overturned by the next executive there will be faster than normal changes made.

I don't know, man. He talked about "banning Muslims" and how he wasn't opposed to Japanese internment. How are American Muslims entitled when they don't want to be herded into camps? They just want to live their lives out, dude. Like any American.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2016, 06:53:19 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
Really?
Esra Altun was walking back to her car at San Jose State University on Wednesday afternoon when someone grabbed her hijab from behind and yanked it backward.

The 19-year-old sophomore psychology student struggled to breathe as the man pulled hard at her head scarf inside the third floor of the West Garage at Fourth and San Salvador streets.
“It happened a day after Trump was announced as president-elect,” Altun said. “If it was for another reason, it’s such a weird coincidence.”
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/11/09/woman-wearing-hijab-attacked-at-san-jose-state/
or
I got out of my car and made it halfway to the store before a man in a MAGA hat grabbed me by the crotch and whispered, “Are you scared now, you liberal cunt?”

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/women-are-already-reporting-strangers-grabbing-them-by-the-py-after-trump-election-win-6248104/#ixzz4Phy6ns9t
How many more should I post?

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2016, 06:58:00 AM »
I'm not even looking to villify Trump voters here. I just want to know there are those of you who will shout down the shit that has floated to the top! That you'll stand by your values and fight when the federal government tries to impinge on our civil liberties.

I get that many Trump voters just want change, want someone who will help make their lives better, I get it. But I am hoping that it's not always coupled with racist and misogynistic ideas!

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2016, 06:59:03 AM »
I don't know, man. He talked about "banning Muslims" and how he wasn't opposed to Japanese internment. How are American Muslims entitled when they don't want to be herded into camps? They just want to live their lives out, dude. Like any American.

This is a good example of a misunderstanding.  He hasn't said he wants to herd up American Muslims and put them into camps.  He did say he wants to restrict Muslims from entering the United States until we figure out how to stop terrorists from coming over.  It's not exactly a feel-good view, but it's a far cry from rounding up American citizens and putting them in prison.

Keep in mind, there's no part of the constitution that says we have to allow anyone into the country who wants to come over. 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jul/29/joaquin-castro/joaquin-castro-says-donald-trump-defended-world-wa/

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2016, 07:01:43 AM »
As for the people using this as license to heckle minorities, it's very unfortunate.  I'm not sure it's fair to blame people who voted for a presidential candidate because some of the other people who like him did some bad stuff, the same way it's not fair to blame Muslims for tacitly endorsing Muslim terrorists by also being Muslim (boy, hell of an example I picked, huh?). 

I can see that, definitely. It's just that he ran on such a vitriolic campaign, it's hard to separate the idea that people voted for him for those reasons. But I get what you're saying and your post was actually comforting in some ways.


a little over half the country didnt want him to win.  why is the liberal side so entitled.  how many protest rallys and riots do you think happen if hillary wins.  i'm guessing few to none.  its messed up minorities are getting attacked.  its also messed minorities are making up stories of being attacked.  its more messed up there are protest riots.  he won, its not gonna be as bad as every liberal seems to think.  you dont have to celebrate but i wouldnt be outraged.  If the soon to be former liberal president hadnt done so many things by executive order and had made them actual laws going thru the checks and balance system you would have less to be worried about.  but since executive orders can easily be overturned by the next executive there will be faster than normal changes made.

I don't know, man. He talked about "banning Muslims" and how he wasn't opposed to Japanese internment. How are American Muslims entitled when they don't want to be herded into camps? They just want to live their lives out, dude. Like any American.

he's not gonna ban muslims he doesnt have the power to overturn the laws of states saying gay marriage is ok.  deporting illegals i dont know that i have any issue with that.  we have a system to become a citizen. there are many first world european countries that dont even offer that.

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2016, 07:04:21 AM »
I don't know, man. He talked about "banning Muslims" and how he wasn't opposed to Japanese internment. How are American Muslims entitled when they don't want to be herded into camps? They just want to live their lives out, dude. Like any American.

This is a good example of a misunderstanding.  He hasn't said he wants to herd up American Muslims and put them into camps.  He did say he wants to restrict Muslims from entering the United States until we figure out how to stop terrorists from coming over.  It's not exactly a feel-good view, but it's a far cry from rounding up American citizens and putting them in prison.

Keep in mind, there's no part of the constitution that says we have to allow anyone into the country who wants to come over. 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jul/29/joaquin-castro/joaquin-castro-says-donald-trump-defended-world-wa/

That is a good distinction. But doesn't it feel weird, as an American, to ban someone based on their religious views? That's pretty counter to our origin story... pilgrims and whatnot. It also suggests to other Muslims in the US that the problem is the religion, and not the fact that the radical ideas ISIS spouts are SO CRAZY.

That said, I acknowledge you said it wasn't feel-good, and it definitely isn't that... and likely not all that effective either. =/

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8888
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2016, 07:08:11 AM »
deporting illegals i dont know that i have any issue with that.  we have a system to become a citizen. there are many first world european countries that dont even offer that.
I'm interested.  Which "first world European countries" don't offer a system to become a citizen?

Torran

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 370
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2016, 07:09:05 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.

I immediately regret clicking on to this thread.

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2016, 07:11:47 AM »
I don't know, man. He talked about "banning Muslims" and how he wasn't opposed to Japanese internment. How are American Muslims entitled when they don't want to be herded into camps? They just want to live their lives out, dude. Like any American.

This is a good example of a misunderstanding.  He hasn't said he wants to herd up American Muslims and put them into camps.  He did say he wants to restrict Muslims from entering the United States until we figure out how to stop terrorists from coming over.  It's not exactly a feel-good view, but it's a far cry from rounding up American citizens and putting them in prison.

Keep in mind, there's no part of the constitution that says we have to allow anyone into the country who wants to come over. 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jul/29/joaquin-castro/joaquin-castro-says-donald-trump-defended-world-wa/

And of course Politifact give that a "half-true" rating...  And its questioned why there is doubt cast towards the fact checkers.

Thanks for posting this up though...

:)

redcedar

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 282
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2016, 07:21:17 AM »
I can see that, definitely. It's just that he ran on such a vitriolic campaign, it's hard to separate the idea that people voted for him for those reasons. But I get what you're saying and your post was actually comforting in some ways.

Do you believe that one party ran a vitriolic campaign while the other did not? C'mon now.

Political parties create and fuel irrational fears. All parties. Not just both parties since we need to include the 2-3 small parties as well.

Paraphrasing a movie quote - "And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, <the other candidate> is not the least bit interested in solving it. <the other candidate> is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections."

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2016, 07:23:31 AM »
Vitriolic was my gentle way of saying "xenophobic and borderline racist."

Schaefer Light

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1328
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2016, 07:32:20 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
If you are LGBTQ you could worry that the government will make your marriage unlawful, sack you from your (military) job, provide federal funds for you to be re-educated or allow insurance companies to deny you coverage all your life because of "a pre-existing condition".

If you are a woman, you could worry that the government will remove your autonomy over your own body.

If you are a first generation citizen you could worry that your parents and older siblings will be deported.

If you are a racial or religious minority you could worry that the hate spewed out by the President gives license to all those lesser haters to abuse you.
When has Trump said he was going to do any of the things you're talking about?  I don't see anything about that in his plan (linked below).

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days

Spitfire

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
  • Location: South Florida
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2016, 07:37:46 AM »
I'm brown, and I'm not scared, if that helps.

I voted for Johnson because I didn't like either major party candidate.

Schaefer Light

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1328
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2016, 07:40:01 AM »
That you'll stand by your values and fight when the federal government tries to impinge on our civil liberties.
I'm a small government guy, so I will definitely not be happy if he tries to do this.  Full disclosure, I voted for Gary Johnson.

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2016, 07:40:17 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
If you are LGBTQ you could worry that the government will make your marriage unlawful, sack you from your (military) job, provide federal funds for you to be re-educated or allow insurance companies to deny you coverage all your life because of "a pre-existing condition".

If you are a woman, you could worry that the government will remove your autonomy over your own body.

If you are a first generation citizen you could worry that your parents and older siblings will be deported.

If you are a racial or religious minority you could worry that the hate spewed out by the President gives license to all those lesser haters to abuse you.
When has Trump said he was going to do any of the things you're talking about?  I don't see anything about that in his plan (linked below).

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days



* FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars' worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.

* SIXTH, lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks and allow vital energy infrastructure projects, like the Keystone Pipeline, to move forward

* SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America's water and environmental infrastructure



Well, there goes the climate, folks.

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2016, 07:41:36 AM »
That is a good distinction. But doesn't it feel weird, as an American, to ban someone based on their religious views? That's pretty counter to our origin story... pilgrims and whatnot. It also suggests to other Muslims in the US that the problem is the religion, and not the fact that the radical ideas ISIS spouts are SO CRAZY.

That said, I acknowledge you said it wasn't feel-good, and it definitely isn't that... and likely not all that effective either. =/

Sure, it is a little weird.  Let me propose an extreme version of this to you as food for thought:

Imagine there was a religion out there called the whitekillers who had a commandment telling them to kill white people.  It's in their holy text explicitly, but only about half of them interpret it that way, and half ignore it.  Some of the peaceful ones live in the US and have no problems.  There is a much more literalist sect in Sub Saharan Africa that is actually killing white people quite regularly in their home countries.  They have laws on the book legalizing such things.  Some of them are immigrating to countries in Europe due to problems in their homes, and while only about 20% of them end up actually doing it, there is a rise in killings of white people in a number of nations they immigrate to.  There are frequent news stories about these immigrants threatening the places they immigrate to to change the laws to suit their religion.

If a president wanted to restrict access to this religion, particularly coming from those countries in Sub Saharan Africa, would you still find it weird?  Would you say "Well yeah, but what message does that send to our local whitekillers, they're going to feel like we hate them.  I know plenty of whitekillers who are good, honest people."

I'm not saying muslims are this extreme by any means, but I'm trying to imagine an extreme situation where you might be okay restricting immigrants based on a religion.  It doesn't mean you hate everyone in the religion, or that you're endorsing violence against them.  It's a pragmatic decision based on current events.  Obviously he draws the line differently than you do, but it doesn't necessarily make him racist or hateful.

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2016, 07:44:48 AM »
That is a good distinction. But doesn't it feel weird, as an American, to ban someone based on their religious views? That's pretty counter to our origin story... pilgrims and whatnot. It also suggests to other Muslims in the US that the problem is the religion, and not the fact that the radical ideas ISIS spouts are SO CRAZY.

That said, I acknowledge you said it wasn't feel-good, and it definitely isn't that... and likely not all that effective either. =/

Sure, it is a little weird.  Let me propose an extreme version of this to you as food for thought:

Imagine there was a religion out there called the whitekillers who had a commandment telling them to kill white people.  It's in their holy text explicitly, but only about half of them interpret it that way, and half ignore it.  Some of the peaceful ones live in the US and have no problems.  There is a much more literalist sect in Sub Saharan Africa that is actually killing white people quite regularly in their home countries.  They have laws on the book legalizing such things.  Some of them are immigrating to countries in Europe due to problems in their homes, and while only about 20% of them end up actually doing it, there is a rise in killings of white people in a number of nations they immigrate to.  There are frequent news stories about these immigrants threatening the places they immigrate to to change the laws to suit their religion.

If a president wanted to restrict access to this religion, particularly coming from those countries in Sub Saharan Africa, would you still find it weird?  Would you say "Well yeah, but what message does that send to our local whitekillers, they're going to feel like we hate them.  I know plenty of whitekillers who are good, honest people."

I'm not saying muslims are this extreme by any means, but I'm trying to imagine an extreme situation where you might be okay restricting immigrants based on a religion.  It doesn't mean you hate everyone in the religion, or that you're endorsing violence against them.  It's a pragmatic decision based on current events.  Obviously he draws the line differently than you do, but it doesn't necessarily make him racist or hateful.

I... am uncomfortable with this example and its juxtaposition with Muslims, because there are many that would run with such an example and say that Muslims are indeed such. In fact, were we ever to get to a situation where our head of state construed Islam to be that dangerous, it would be due to an egregious lack of sound information.

Schaefer Light

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1328
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2016, 07:48:28 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
If you are LGBTQ you could worry that the government will make your marriage unlawful, sack you from your (military) job, provide federal funds for you to be re-educated or allow insurance companies to deny you coverage all your life because of "a pre-existing condition".

If you are a woman, you could worry that the government will remove your autonomy over your own body.

If you are a first generation citizen you could worry that your parents and older siblings will be deported.

If you are a racial or religious minority you could worry that the hate spewed out by the President gives license to all those lesser haters to abuse you.
When has Trump said he was going to do any of the things you're talking about?  I don't see anything about that in his plan (linked below).

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days



* FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars' worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.

* SIXTH, lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks and allow vital energy infrastructure projects, like the Keystone Pipeline, to move forward

* SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America's water and environmental infrastructure



Well, there goes the climate, folks.
Read the bolded part.  UN climate change programs aren't going to do much for us when China is unwilling to cooperate.  I think spending that money at home is a great idea.  Maybe it could prevent some of the environmental messes that have been happening here.  Plus, all of these things would be good for the economy and would make us less dependent on foreign energy sources.

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2016, 07:52:10 AM »
Well, there goes the climate, folks.

America's infrastructure has a D+ rating from the American society of civil engineers. 
http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/

Of all the things to pick on him for, I'm not sure infrastructure is the best one.  We also import a shitload of oil from foreign countries that are disastrous as far as rights for women and religious freedom.  These countries aren't even close to leaders in environmental protection, but I guess they are on the other side of the world so who cares right? Our current energy program literally gives those countries fistfuls of money.

Giving money to UN climate organizations (whatever those are) is really a higher priority than fixing our bridges that are literally collapsing?


I... am uncomfortable with this example and its juxtaposition with Muslims, because there are many that would run with such an example and say that Muslims are indeed such. In fact, were we ever to get to a situation where our head of state construed Islam to be that dangerous, it would be due to an egregious lack of sound information.

So in such a situation you'd say "Bring em over!"?  It's a theoretical problem, the fact that you find it uncomfortable might be an indication that you feel guilty that you wouldn't want that group to have free reign.  Extreme examples are a basic part of philosophical discussion to figure out what your true belief is. 

It's fine if you say you wouldn't want this group, but don't think muslims are nearly this bad so that's why you're okay letting them in.  To simply have a rule that says we shouldn't prohibit anyone based on religion no matter what is a much tougher position to defend IMO.

No Name Guy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 448
  • Location: Western Washington
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2016, 08:01:20 AM »
While a distant analogy at best, this post election fear mongering of the left reminds me of the brainwashing of the Imperial Japanese Army to their civilians on Saipan and Okinawa.  They were so terrified of the US Army and Marines, they preferred to slaughter their own children and jump off cliffs rather than fall into the hands of the (in their own minds) beasts (US Army / Marines).  While not perfect, those civilians that were taken alive were actually (given circumstances) treated decently.  There were no mass executions, no sticking babies on bayonets, no Battan death marches, no rapes of Nanking.

I'll add that in my opinion, this fear of violence from is actually a reflection of the mind of those having said fear.  They themselves are violent and would do such things to their fellow man were the roles reversed. 

Which side beat a homeless woman in Hollywood? 
Which side firebombed a campaign HQ and was firebombed? 
Which side planted operatives to incite violence and rallies? 

The left, in all cases.

Note:  For the record, Ms. Clinton and Mr. Trump are Kang and Kodos to me.  Neither received my vote.  I voted FOR a person I actually believe in.

PS - I look forward to the left in this country returning to its traditional anti-war stance.  Their silent acceptance of Mr. Obama's WW3 starting war mongering in Syria shows how....flexible....people can be when it's "their" guy doing stupid stuff.  I also look forward to the left finding a respect for the Constitutional separation of powers.  I hope Mr. Trump voids all of Mr. Obama's Executive Orders and then goes to Congress for legislation, as the Constitution says.

Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2016, 08:02:29 AM »
Oh, no, I'm fine with investing in infrastructure. I actually heartily support that. I think that fighting climate change is the kind of work we can only do now, is what I am saying, and if we backslide on it, based on all the science, there's no way we can reverse it. We're already behind.

Re: your example with Muslims, it makes me uncomfortable to juxtapose Muslims and "whitekillers" side by side because to many people, that is their reality. It's an extreme example that I'm not sure really helps. Like, you're saying that theoretically it makes sense... But in reality, Islam isn't like that. ISIS is a relatively new phenomenon and American Muslims are actually our best bet at fighting their ideology. I guess our difference here is that you're contesting the idea that it's ever okay to ban someone on their religion. I will give that to you because I don't care about theoretical situations right now, only the present.

Christians still have their scary, intolerant, violent members, too. I mean, c'mon, look at the violence against abortion clinics as one stark example.

I'm suggesting here that the religious argument is a red herring. There are other factors that feed into radicalization and I think it has to do with a criminal element, not a religious one. This is based on what I understand from the research ongoing now into ISIS and white supremacy. I can link some, if others are interested.


Meowkins

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Off hugging a squishy cat. Probably.
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2016, 08:04:31 AM »
While a distant analogy at best, this post election fear mongering of the left reminds me of the brainwashing of the Imperial Japanese Army to their civilians on Saipan and Okinawa.  They were so terrified of the US Army and Marines, they preferred to slaughter their own children and jump off cliffs rather than fall into the hands of the (in their own minds) beasts (US Army / Marines).  While not perfect, those civilians that were taken alive were actually (given circumstances) treated decently.  There were no mass executions, no sticking babies on bayonets, no Battan death marches, no rapes of Nanking.

I'll add that in my opinion, this fear of violence from is actually a reflection of the mind of those having said fear.  They themselves are violent and would do such things to their fellow man were the roles reversed. 

Which side beat a homeless woman in Hollywood? 
Which side firebombed a campaign HQ and was firebombed? 
Which side planted operatives to incite violence and rallies? 

The left, in all cases.

Note:  For the record, Ms. Clinton and Mr. Trump are Kang and Kodos to me.  Neither received my vote.  I voted FOR a person I actually believe in.

PS - I look forward to the left in this country returning to its traditional anti-war stance.  Their silent acceptance of Mr. Obama's WW3 starting war mongering in Syria shows how....flexible....people can be when it's "their" guy doing stupid stuff.  I also look forward to the left finding a respect for the Constitutional separation of powers.  I hope Mr. Trump voids all of Mr. Obama's Executive Orders and then goes to Congress for legislation, as the Constitution says.

I'm not here to fight partisan squabbles, I think I've been clear about that. Good to hear that you are looking forward to the developments of this presidency, I am glad for you.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7349
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2016, 08:19:37 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.

Wow. Have you met the United States?

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2016, 08:22:07 AM »
Oh, no, I'm fine with investing in infrastructure. I actually heartily support that. I think that fighting climate change is the kind of work we can only do now, is what I am saying, and if we backslide on it, based on all the science, there's no way we can reverse it. We're already behind.

Fair enough, you place a higher value on climate change than infrastructure.  I'd argue that bringing energy generation to the United States could actually be a net good for the environment compared to shipping in our oil from places with little/no environmental regulation.  Obviously if you compare extracting fossil fuels in the United States to some ideal world where we get all of our energy in renewables 5 years from now, fossil fuels lose.  That's not the choice we have, though.

Quote
Re: your example with Muslims, it makes me uncomfortable to juxtapose Muslims and "whitekillers" side by side because to many people, that is their reality. It's an extreme example that I'm not sure really helps. Like, you're saying that theoretically it makes sense... But in reality, Islam isn't like that. ISIS is a relatively new phenomenon and American Muslims are actually our best bet at fighting their ideology. I guess our difference here is that you're contesting the idea that it's ever okay to ban someone on their religion. I will give that to you because I don't care about theoretical situations right now, only the present.

Christians still have their scary, intolerant, violent members, too. I mean, c'mon, look at the violence against abortion clinics as one stark example.

I'm suggesting here that the religious argument is a red herring. There are other factors that feed into radicalization and I think it has to do with a criminal element, not a religious one. This is based on what I understand from the research ongoing now into ISIS and white supremacy. I can link some, if others are interested.

That's a reasonable position to have, and the direction I lean in as well.  I can certainly see the perspective of the side that's skeptical of allowing certain groups from certain countries to come to America right now. 

I was really responding to this, as it seemed to imply we should never restrict entry to our country based on religion:

That is a good distinction. But doesn't it feel weird, as an American, to ban someone based on their religious views? That's pretty counter to our origin story... pilgrims and whatnot. It also suggests to other Muslims in the US that the problem is the religion, and not the fact that the radical ideas ISIS spouts are SO CRAZY.

That said, I acknowledge you said it wasn't feel-good, and it definitely isn't that... and likely not all that effective either. =/

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5055
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2016, 08:29:50 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
Really?
Esra Altun was walking back to her car at San Jose State University on Wednesday afternoon when someone grabbed her hijab from behind and yanked it backward.

The 19-year-old sophomore psychology student struggled to breathe as the man pulled hard at her head scarf inside the third floor of the West Garage at Fourth and San Salvador streets.
“It happened a day after Trump was announced as president-elect,” Altun said. “If it was for another reason, it’s such a weird coincidence.”
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/11/09/woman-wearing-hijab-attacked-at-san-jose-state/
or
I got out of my car and made it halfway to the store before a man in a MAGA hat grabbed me by the crotch and whispered, “Are you scared now, you liberal cunt?”

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/women-are-already-reporting-strangers-grabbing-them-by-the-py-after-trump-election-win-6248104/#ixzz4Phy6ns9t
How many more should I post?

The fbi reported 5,479 hate crimes in 2014.  Other sources say this number is egregiously low because of under reporting and miscategorization.  Just based on that number though I would have expected dozens of hate crimes to have happened since the election, just by coincidence.  I'm sure you could dig up stories on the hundreds, or thousands, of hate crimes that were happening before the election.  I'll be interested to see the statistics when this is all said and done and see if there really was a huge spike in hate crimes and assaults or not, or if it's getting blown out of proportion.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2016, 08:40:47 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
Really?
Esra Altun was walking back to her car at San Jose State University on Wednesday afternoon when someone grabbed her hijab from behind and yanked it backward.

The 19-year-old sophomore psychology student struggled to breathe as the man pulled hard at her head scarf inside the third floor of the West Garage at Fourth and San Salvador streets.
“It happened a day after Trump was announced as president-elect,” Altun said. “If it was for another reason, it’s such a weird coincidence.”
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/11/09/woman-wearing-hijab-attacked-at-san-jose-state/
or
I got out of my car and made it halfway to the store before a man in a MAGA hat grabbed me by the crotch and whispered, “Are you scared now, you liberal cunt?”

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/women-are-already-reporting-strangers-grabbing-them-by-the-py-after-trump-election-win-6248104/#ixzz4Phy6ns9t
How many more should I post?

The fbi reported 5,479 hate crimes in 2014.  Other sources say this number is egregiously low because of under reporting and miscategorization.  Just based on that number though I would have expected dozens of hate crimes to have happened since the election, just by coincidence.  I'm sure you could dig up stories on the hundreds, or thousands, of hate crimes that were happening before the election.  I'll be interested to see the statistics when this is all said and done and see if there really was a huge spike in hate crimes and assaults or not, or if it's getting blown out of proportion.
Checks these:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/day-1-trumps-america_us_582497afe4b0cdd5e7e99e86
People are saying it is because of Trump, the people doing the actions or they are imitating the man (for example "grab them by the pussy").  I am well aware of the sexual assaults and hate crimes that normally happen, this is not normal in one day.    And those who voted for Trump are responsible for it, even if they don't want to claim it and that is why we are scared. 

VladTheImpaler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2016, 08:46:18 AM »

The only thing I want to add is that TRUMP IS NOT A ROLE MODEL.

My only real fear is that people will see Trumps victory as an indication that it's ok to be loud and angry and lie a lot to win.
The world is already FULL of entitled, pushy people, we do not need any more.
If anything, the world needs a lot more empathy and patience.

Everybody say it with me: "Empathy is NOT weakness and life is NOT a zero sum game."
Now repeat until you understand that.

acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1697
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2016, 08:53:30 AM »
Trump victory was due to the minority vote.
The swing state victories can be largely attributed to Trump-voting minorities, specifically Black, Latin, Asian.

See data here
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0

Specifically, note the minority shift compared to Romney '12

Interestingly, the female vote moved only 1% despite Clinton's genitalia- focused campaign. Perhaps American women are not as sexist as presumed.

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5055
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2016, 08:55:47 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
Really?
Esra Altun was walking back to her car at San Jose State University on Wednesday afternoon when someone grabbed her hijab from behind and yanked it backward.

The 19-year-old sophomore psychology student struggled to breathe as the man pulled hard at her head scarf inside the third floor of the West Garage at Fourth and San Salvador streets.
“It happened a day after Trump was announced as president-elect,” Altun said. “If it was for another reason, it’s such a weird coincidence.”
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/11/09/woman-wearing-hijab-attacked-at-san-jose-state/
or
I got out of my car and made it halfway to the store before a man in a MAGA hat grabbed me by the crotch and whispered, “Are you scared now, you liberal cunt?”

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/women-are-already-reporting-strangers-grabbing-them-by-the-py-after-trump-election-win-6248104/#ixzz4Phy6ns9t
How many more should I post?

The fbi reported 5,479 hate crimes in 2014.  Other sources say this number is egregiously low because of under reporting and miscategorization.  Just based on that number though I would have expected dozens of hate crimes to have happened since the election, just by coincidence.  I'm sure you could dig up stories on the hundreds, or thousands, of hate crimes that were happening before the election.  I'll be interested to see the statistics when this is all said and done and see if there really was a huge spike in hate crimes and assaults or not, or if it's getting blown out of proportion.
Checks these:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/day-1-trumps-america_us_582497afe4b0cdd5e7e99e86
People are saying it is because of Trump, the people doing the actions or they are imitating the man (for example "grab them by the pussy").  I am well aware of the sexual assaults and hate crimes that normally happen, this is not normal in one day.    And those who voted for Trump are responsible for it, even if they don't want to claim it and that is why we are scared.

Several of the stories listed in that article are claimed to be hoaxes from multiple sources.  I don't know all the facts, but I'm hesitant to believe every facebook post or tweet, even if it passes the huffingtonpost's rigorous and unbiased fact checking.  There is plenty of hyperbole on both sides. 

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2016, 08:57:00 AM »
Fair enough, you place a higher value on climate change than infrastructure. 

You realize those aren't mutually exclusive anywhere except in Trump's list, right?

I place a high value on climate change and infrastructure, and Trump can go fuck himself for trying to play the issues off against each other!

the_gastropod

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 470
  • Age: 37
  • Location: RVA
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2016, 08:59:31 AM »
Which side beat a homeless woman in Hollywood? 
Which side firebombed a campaign HQ and was firebombed? 
Which side planted operatives to incite violence and rallies? 

Bahahahahaha. Ok, I'll bite:

1. This homeless woman? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK7EWEkOgmY Did you watch the video? Did you see a single person so much as touch this woman? Perhaps your definition of "beat" differs from mine.
2. Were there any arrests in this case? Please provide any evidence that "the left" did this. What the left actually is responsible for is starting this Go Fund Me (https://www.gofundme.com/reopen-a-nc-republican-office-2ukuprzy) to reopen said firebombed republican headquarters.
3. Ahhh, the ol' James O'Keefe video. The guy responsible for the "undercover" ACORN video that was found to be complete malarkey, so much so that he had to pay a $100,000 settlement as an "apology" to those affected. This video is no different. Those in the video have stated that O'Keefe's crew of imposters were deceptive and manipulative to get specific out-of-context quotes from them. O'Keefe has refused to release the unedited raw footage. And you still buy into the conspiracy that Hillary Clinton planted violent people at Trump rallies? That's your right. But you should probably not use this as evidence about "the left" being violent.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:01:47 AM by the_gastropod »

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10931
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2016, 09:00:14 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
If you are LGBTQ you could worry that the government will make your marriage unlawful, sack you from your (military) job, provide federal funds for you to be re-educated or allow insurance companies to deny you coverage all your life because of "a pre-existing condition".

If you are a woman, you could worry that the government will remove your autonomy over your own body.

If you are a first generation citizen you could worry that your parents and older siblings will be deported.

If you are a racial or religious minority you could worry that the hate spewed out by the President gives license to all those lesser haters to abuse you.
This list is pretty obvious.  It's strange that anyone would even have to write it down.

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8888
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2016, 09:01:32 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
If you are LGBTQ you could worry that the government will make your marriage unlawful, sack you from your (military) job, provide federal funds for you to be re-educated or allow insurance companies to deny you coverage all your life because of "a pre-existing condition".

If you are a woman, you could worry that the government will remove your autonomy over your own body.

If you are a first generation citizen you could worry that your parents and older siblings will be deported.

If you are a racial or religious minority you could worry that the hate spewed out by the President gives license to all those lesser haters to abuse you.
When has Trump said he was going to do any of the things you're talking about?  I don't see anything about that in his plan (linked below).

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days

My list is based on statements by Trump and Pence, and actions by them won't stop after the first 100 days.  But the first 100 days plan does include plans to cancel existing Presidential actions, memorandums and orders, it does include the repeal of Obamacare, and it does include deportations, all of which could be relevant to the points I made.

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2016, 09:06:49 AM »
And those who voted for Trump are responsible for it, even if they don't want to claim it and that is why we are scared.

So should we claim that Muslims are responsible for those who kill people (including rape victims) using Islam as a justification?  They essentially "voted" that their religion is the best choice.

You realize those aren't mutually exclusive anywhere except in Trump's list, right?

I place a high value on climate change and infrastructure, and Trump can go fuck himself for trying to play the issues off against each other!

That's true, very few things are mutually exclusive. 

With that being said, I don't think restricting pipelines and giving money to a UN committee is the best way to fight climate change.  I'd rather he funneled the money toward research and subsidies for renewables in the US.  That won't happen either, but I'm not losing any sleep over him taking the money from the UN committee to put toward infrastructure, and allowing a pipeline to be built. 

It's one thing to give money to specific projects on a case by case basis.  It's another to give a blank check to a UN climate committee when they don't even know what they're going to do with it yet.  In fact, some ideas for the money include shoring up defenses for coastal cities and countries to prevent flooding and natural disasters.  An admirable goal, but not helping prevent climate change at all.

Scandium

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2849
  • Location: EastCoast
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2016, 09:08:04 AM »
https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

Quote
This just happened. Trump supporter tossed water in her face after threatening to rape her and build the wall. Day 1 of Trump.

Quote
White dudes saw a woman alone and yelled "grab her by the pussy" then tried to do so. Day 1 of Donald Trump.

Quote
"Y'all black people better start picking your slave numbers. KKK 4 Life. Go Trump."

Quote
"Can't wait until your 'marriage' is overturned by a real president. Gay families = burn in hell. Trump 2016"



MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2924
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2016, 09:09:35 AM »
If you're not breaking any laws (and this includes being here illegally), then I don't see why you have anything to be worried about.
If you are LGBTQ you could worry that the government will make your marriage unlawful, sack you from your (military) job, provide federal funds for you to be re-educated or allow insurance companies to deny you coverage all your life because of "a pre-existing condition".

If you are a woman, you could worry that the government will remove your autonomy over your own body.

If you are a first generation citizen you could worry that your parents and older siblings will be deported.

If you are a racial or religious minority you could worry that the hate spewed out by the President gives license to all those lesser haters to abuse you.
When has Trump said he was going to do any of the things you're talking about?  I don't see anything about that in his plan (linked below).

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days



* FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars' worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.

* SIXTH, lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks and allow vital energy infrastructure projects, like the Keystone Pipeline, to move forward

* SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America's water and environmental infrastructure



Well, there goes the climate, folks.
Read the bolded part.  UN climate change programs aren't going to do much for us when China is unwilling to cooperate.  I think spending that money at home is a great idea.  Maybe it could prevent some of the environmental messes that have been happening here.  Plus, all of these things would be good for the economy and would make us less dependent on foreign energy sources.

I agree the UN climate change pact is a bit of a farse. But in defense of China their leaders at least acknowledge climate change and are investing vastly more into renewable energy than the US.

The bolded part is a misnomer. First of all "clean coal" is an oxymoron. Secondly oil is a global commodity. Drilling for more isn't going to make us less dependent. It's going to go to market to the highest bidder. We are vastly oversupplied as it is (see low gas prices), so we don't need more reserves. Coal is on the major decline thanks to natural gas. Investing in coal is a futile effort.

The Keystone has been beat to death. It's not going to bring more jobs (it will bring a few) or more energy Independence. It's Canadian tar sands oil. It's simply a means to get Canadian tar sands to the coastal refineries  much quicker for International export.

The logic that relying MORE on fossil fuels will somehow make us energy independent is a load of crap. You can't import solar and wind. We don't need pipelines or drunk captains playing slalom with icebergs. The rest of the world is moving forward quite rapidly with renewable energy. Meanwhile we are still arguing over weather global warming is happening or not and electing a leader that thinks "climate change" is some Chinese catch phrase.

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10931
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2016, 09:15:48 AM »
Quote
But in defense of China their leaders at least acknowledge climate change and are investing vastly more into renewable energy than the US.

This makes me sad, a bit.  I'm reading Hot, Flat, and Crowded by Thomas L. Friedman, written in 2008.  About how we need to invest in renewable energy FIRST and get there FIRST to create jobs (because then we can sell our products and technology to China and others) and...

oh well.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2016, 09:30:25 AM »
And those who voted for Trump are responsible for it, even if they don't want to claim it and that is why we are scared.

So should we claim that Muslims are responsible for those who kill people (including rape victims) using Islam as a justification?  They essentially "voted" that their religion is the best choice.

You realize those aren't mutually exclusive anywhere except in Trump's list, right?

I place a high value on climate change and infrastructure, and Trump can go fuck himself for trying to play the issues off against each other!

That's true, very few things are mutually exclusive. 

With that being said, I don't think restricting pipelines and giving money to a UN committee is the best way to fight climate change.  I'd rather he funneled the money toward research and subsidies for renewables in the US.  That won't happen either, but I'm not losing any sleep over him taking the money from the UN committee to put toward infrastructure, and allowing a pipeline to be built. 

It's one thing to give money to specific projects on a case by case basis.  It's another to give a blank check to a UN climate committee when they don't even know what they're going to do with it yet.  In fact, some ideas for the money include shoring up defenses for coastal cities and countries to prevent flooding and natural disasters.  An admirable goal, but not helping prevent climate change at all.
That is false equivalency.  Islam does not approve of those things, Trump does.  His statements and actions are harmful and voting for someone who does and says those things says that you accept those as better than opposition.  So you'd rather have someone who says we should torture people, who has admitted to sexually assaulting people than the other option.  You may have your reasons but you accept it. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:32:08 AM by Gin1984 »

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2016, 09:45:45 AM »
That is false equivalency.  Islam does not approve of those things, Trump does.  His statements and actions are harmful and voting for someone who does and says those things says that you accept those as better than opposition.  So you'd rather have someone who says we should torture people, who has admitted to sexually assaulting people than the other option.  You may have your reasons but you accept it.

Interpretations of Islam can absolutely approve of horrible things.  You need to merely look at places where Islam is in control of the government to see that. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/29/opinion/29iht-edeltahawy.1.8528543.html

Torturing people in war for information happens whether the president admits it or not.  I absolutely don't believe Hillary would've been any different on that, she just may have hidden it better.  His words on sexual assault years ago were pretty bad, and I agree he's a douche, but to suggest that someone supports everything he's ever done because they voted for him instead of an alternative, simply isn't right. 

Perhaps Hillary voters were supporting women staying with husbands after they cheat on them?  Of course they aren't.

Northwestie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1224
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2016, 09:55:08 AM »
I can see that, definitely. It's just that he ran on such a vitriolic campaign, it's hard to separate the idea that people voted for him for those reasons. But I get what you're saying and your post was actually comforting in some ways.

Do you believe that one party ran a vitriolic campaign while the other did not? C'mon now.


Yea -  I do.  Trump:  mocked a disabled person, dissed women several times in crude ways including Megan Kelly, picked on a Silver Star family because they were Muslim,  questioned the validity of a federal judge because he was Mexican American,
many instances of crap like this in New Hampshire:

You know he's concerned about the answer because well, some people," Trump said, pointing to a woman in the crowd, "she just said a terrible thing. You know what she said? Shout it out 'cause I don't wanna."

Then he said it anyway: "She said, 'He's a p---y.'"


When I saw this video:  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2015/nov/26/donald-trump-appears-to-mock-disabled-reporter-video

.............my reaction was - what adult acts this way.  This is immature middle school behavior.  Who brags about grabbing women by the crotch?  He is a vulgar man.

Granted - Bernie Sanders also ran a campaign appealing to the disaffected groups, similar to Trump.  But he did it with a discussion of issues and with class.  Hillary simply pointed out to Trumps language.  Nothing in comparison to the Trump bafoon show.



Spitfire

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
  • Location: South Florida
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2016, 09:59:16 AM »
Those crimes that happened on "Day 1" are just that, crimes. They are not suddenly legal because Trump is president. There have been plenty of anti-Trump protests and riots too. I assume that stuff will die down. Optimism is a hell of drug.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7095
Re: Hey, Trump Voters
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2016, 10:00:48 AM »
I don't know, man. He talked about "banning Muslims" and how he wasn't opposed to Japanese internment. How are American Muslims entitled when they don't want to be herded into camps? They just want to live their lives out, dude. Like any American.

This is a good example of a misunderstanding.  He hasn't said he wants to herd up American Muslims and put them into camps.

He did state that he wants to create a database of Muslims. He didn't say "Syrian refugees" or "Muslims from evil countries." He stated Muslims. They'd be signed up in "a lot of places" and not just Mosques.

The backtracking on what he said and implied is absurd. Ryan couldn't say his name until this week. Republicans distanced themselves from him after his "grab their crotch" tape was released. Neither of the Bush Presidents voted for him. The guy's a loose cannon and a dangerous demagogue. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Now we see if he can be a responsible adult and stop twitter-insulting people at 3am (who the fuck does that?).

Quote from: acroy
Interestingly, the female vote moved only 1% despite Clinton's genitalia- focused campaign. Perhaps American women are not as sexist as presumed.

Seriously?

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!