Here we go....American citizens being detained and deported

[GuitarStv]

There is no legal obligation to talk to or provide ID to law enforcement.  They can ask all they want.

How well did that work for the 300 families arrested without cause by the Border Patrol over four years?


There are theoretical rights, and then there real rights.  If you're pulled over by a police officer and have your music playing, he will ask you to turn it down.  Legally you can turn the music up and tell him to go fuck himself.  In reality, doing this will ensure that you are charged with something, and it will be cheaper to pay the fine than fight it.  Your real rights do not extend quite as far as your theoretical rights.

[jim555]

They try to intimidate people to give up information, this is how people get themselves in trouble.  They think they can talk their way out of it.  But they are falling into the trap, that everything will be used against them.  The best way to play is not to play at all.  Speak to my attorney, end of discussion.

[Paul der Krake]

What attorney? They’re targeting undocumented immigrants, who have neither the money nor the knowledge on how to get legal representation.

[jim555]

What attorney? They’re targeting undocumented immigrants, who have neither the money nor the knowledge on how to get legal representation.

Well it is them to know and assert their rights.

[JLee]

They try to intimidate people to give up information, this is how people get themselves in trouble.  They think they can talk their way out of it.  But they are falling into the trap, that everything will be used against them.  The best way to play is not to play at all.  Speak to my attorney, end of discussion.

What attorney? They’re targeting undocumented immigrants, who have neither the money nor the knowledge on how to get legal representation.

Well it is them to know and assert their rights.

This argument is so overwhelmingly founded from a position of privilege that I am uncertain where even to start.

[GuitarStv]

They try to intimidate people to give up information, this is how people get themselves in trouble.  They think they can talk their way out of it.  But they are falling into the trap, that everything will be used against them.  The best way to play is not to play at all.  Speak to my attorney, end of discussion.

Again, you are overlooking the fact that 300 families were arrested illegally not because they were intimidated into giving up information, but without cause.  It doesn't matter how you answer (or fail to answer) when law enforcement isn't playing by the rules.

[jim555]

They try to intimidate people to give up information, this is how people get themselves in trouble.  They think they can talk their way out of it.  But they are falling into the trap, that everything will be used against them.  The best way to play is not to play at all.  Speak to my attorney, end of discussion.

Again, you are overlooking the fact that 300 families were arrested illegally not because they were intimidated into giving up information, but without cause.  It doesn't matter how you answer (or fail to answer) when law enforcement isn't playing by the rules.

I don't know and can't comment on the specifics of cases, and neither can you.  They probably started answering questions and this lead to them being arrested.

[Kris]

They try to intimidate people to give up information, this is how people get themselves in trouble.  They think they can talk their way out of it.  But they are falling into the trap, that everything will be used against them.  The best way to play is not to play at all.  Speak to my attorney, end of discussion.

Again, you are overlooking the fact that 300 families were arrested illegally not because they were intimidated into giving up information, but without cause.  It doesn't matter how you answer (or fail to answer) when law enforcement isn't playing by the rules.

I don't know and can't comment on the specifics of cases, and neither can you.  They probably started answering questions and this lead to them being arrested.

Lol. Sentence one and sentence two don't really go together, do they?

[Paul der Krake]

They try to intimidate people to give up information, this is how people get themselves in trouble.  They think they can talk their way out of it.  But they are falling into the trap, that everything will be used against them.  The best way to play is not to play at all.  Speak to my attorney, end of discussion.

Again, you are overlooking the fact that 300 families were arrested illegally not because they were intimidated into giving up information, but without cause.  It doesn't matter how you answer (or fail to answer) when law enforcement isn't playing by the rules.

That's the thing though, it's not clear that they're not playing by the rules. There is a law that says they can do this within 100 miles of the border. Then there is the 4th amendment and other constitutional rights that the ACLU and others believe should make this law unconstitutional. But you need a court to actually declare it so.

Government agencies push the boundaries of their powers all the goddamn time, and only the judiciary can rein them in.

[jim555]

Don't get me wrong I am not for this practice at all.  But legally merely asking are you a citizen doesn't violate any rights.

[Paul der Krake]

What attorney? They’re targeting undocumented immigrants, who have neither the money nor the knowledge on how to get legal representation.

Well it is them to know and assert their rights.

Let me put it this way: I’m the model LPR that everyone in the law-and-order bandwagon loves. I have never, ever, had anybody make me unwelcome here, at least not to my face. I’m white, high-earning, tax-paying, and very good-looking. I usually travel with my white, blue-eyed, blond-haired, American wife. We’re both squeaky clean, not even a speeding ticket on our rap sheets. Over the years I’ve interacted with dozens of border agents, crossing the border by land, water, and air, more times than I care to count. Some are rather blunt, but otherwise my interactions are pretty cordial. Sometimes I chitchat and joke with them. The other day, one said “hey man just get naturalized so I don’t have to ask you these questions”. I have attorney friends I can call, I know my rights, I have the backing of a Fortune 50 megacorp with an immigration hotline, and plenty of money to obtain legal representation should everything else fails.

Despite all this, I get slightly nervous every time I approach the border. Despite thinking the 100 mile border zone is bullshit, I would never in a million years try to not answer a CBP question even when I am 100% sure I am within my rights. Now think about the case of some poor schmuck from Mexico, with no legal status, who barely speaks English, let alone understand the legal ramifications of his actions. How do you think he is going to fare when armed CBP agents board his bus?

[jim555]

What attorney? They’re targeting undocumented immigrants, who have neither the money nor the knowledge on how to get legal representation.

Well it is them to know and assert their rights.

Let me put it this way: I’m the model LPR that everyone in the law-and-order bandwagon loves. I have never, ever, had anybody make me unwelcome here, at least not to my face. I’m white, high-earning, tax-paying, and very good-looking. I usually travel with my white, blue-eyed, blond-haired, American wife. We’re both squeaky clean, not even a speeding ticket on our rap sheets. Over the years I’ve interacted with dozens of border agents, crossing the border by land, water, and air, more times than I care to count. Some are rather blunt, but otherwise my interactions are pretty cordial. Sometimes I chitchat and joke with them. The other day, one said “hey man just get naturalized so I don’t have to ask you these questions”. I have attorney friends I can call, I know my rights, I have the backing of a Fortune 50 megacorp with an immigration hotline, and plenty of money to obtain legal representation should everything else fails.

Despite all this, I get slightly nervous every time I approach the border. Despite thinking the 100 mile border zone is bullshit, I would never in a million years try to not answer a CBP question even when I am 100% sure I am within my rights. Now think about the case of some poor schmuck from Mexico, with no legal status, who barely speaks English, let alone understand the legal ramifications of his actions. How do you think he is going to fare when armed CBP agents board his bus?

The legal system doesn't protect those outside of it.  That is why Miranda rights are read AFTER the arrest, because then the person has entered the legal system.  There is no obligation to inform people of their rights and this is the main way cases are made.  Get people to make mistakes and admit to things, or give information that will make the case against them.  That is just the way it is in the American system.  Anyone who isn't knowledgeable can fall into it.  I would imagine someone in your example would fare very poorly.  But again this is how the system works.

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

[bacchi]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

I exercised my rights once that way. I got banged up a little,  tossed in the back of a car, and was searched anyway. Conveniently, the cameras on 2 cars weren't working at that time.

You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.

[ixtap]

Don't get me wrong I am not for this practice at all.  But legally merely asking are you a citizen doesn't violate any rights.

No, but questioning the response from certain people because of the color of their skin does. There are even American citizens with foreign accents. They are not required to carry papers because they are citizens. But if they can't prove they are citizens...

[GuitarStv]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

Given the number of fatal shootings of black men who were exercising their constitutional rights to do something . . . If you were black and had kids Jim, would you advise them to do the same?  I feel like your responses betray some privilege.

[jim555]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

Given the number of fatal shootings of black men who were exercising their constitutional rights to do something . . . If you were black and had kids Jim, would you advise them to do the same?  I feel like your responses betray some privilege.

I don't tell people what they should do, that is for them to decide.  But if no one stands up for rights those rights will be lost.

[dragoncar]

There is no legal obligation to talk to or provide ID to law enforcement.  They can ask all they want.

Just FYi this varies by state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes#Obligation_to_identify

[dragoncar]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

Just because they let you walk away doesn't mean you were within your rights.  The constitutionality of metro bag searches was upheld by the courts.  I'm surprised they didn't at least exclude you from the subway system, so your privilege is definitely showing.

[jim555]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

Just because they let you walk away doesn't mean you were within your rights.  The constitutionality of metro bag searches was upheld by the courts.  I'm surprised they didn't at least exclude you from the subway system, so your privilege is definitely showing.

I was never told anything.  Then went to a different entrance.  The whole thing is dumb from a security standpoint.
I was definitely within my rights.

[DreamFIRE]

What attorney? They’re targeting undocumented immigrants, who have neither the money nor the knowledge on how to get legal representation.

And of course we want them to target the illegals, but they need to do a better job targeting the illegal aliens, stepping up the efforts and efficiency in doing so, while minimizing false positive arrests of legal citizens and residents.

[dragoncar]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

Just because they let you walk away doesn't mean you were within your rights.  The constitutionality of metro bag searches was upheld by the courts.  I'm surprised they didn't at least exclude you from the subway system, so your privilege is definitely showing.

I was never told anything.  Then went to a different entrance.  The whole thing is dumb from a security standpoint.
I was definitely within my rights.

You said you got pulled over, they did that without telling you anything?  Like they used hand signals?

[jim555]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

Just because they let you walk away doesn't mean you were within your rights.  The constitutionality of metro bag searches was upheld by the courts.  I'm surprised they didn't at least exclude you from the subway system, so your privilege is definitely showing.

I was never told anything.  Then went to a different entrance.  The whole thing is dumb from a security standpoint.
I was definitely within my rights.

You said you got pulled over, they did that without telling you anything?  Like they used hand signals?

They tell you put your bag on the table, in no uncertain terms.

[dragoncar]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

Just because they let you walk away doesn't mean you were within your rights.  The constitutionality of metro bag searches was upheld by the courts.  I'm surprised they didn't at least exclude you from the subway system, so your privilege is definitely showing.

I was never told anything.  Then went to a different entrance.  The whole thing is dumb from a security standpoint.
I was definitely within my rights.

You said you got pulled over, they did that without telling you anything?  Like they used hand signals?

They tell you put your bag on the table, in no uncertain terms.

OK, so "I was never told anything" is false.  You gotta keep your story straight

[jim555]

I used to get pulled over for NYC bag searches, they would do this at the subways.  I never consented and walked away with my bag.  99.9% let them search, but that is on them, they waived their rights.

Just because they let you walk away doesn't mean you were within your rights.  The constitutionality of metro bag searches was upheld by the courts.  I'm surprised they didn't at least exclude you from the subway system, so your privilege is definitely showing.

I was never told anything.  Then went to a different entrance.  The whole thing is dumb from a security standpoint.
I was definitely within my rights.

You said you got pulled over, they did that without telling you anything?  Like they used hand signals?

They tell you put your bag on the table, in no uncertain terms.

OK, so "I was never told anything" is false.  You gotta keep your story straight

I was never told anything in regard to not entering the subway.  I was replying to your "I'm surprised they didn't at least exclude you from the subway system".  I just said I refuse the search and walked out of the station.