Author Topic: Help with Bigmanification  (Read 7530 times)

Roastonbone

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Help with Bigmanification
« on: April 23, 2013, 03:01:05 PM »
Howdy folks, longtime reader, first time poster!

I have a fitness-related saga to relate in hopes of getting some advice from the strong Mustachians out there. Short version is I'm trying to get reasonably strong but not making very good progress on my lifts and I'm not sure why.

Current maxes:
Squat (Olympic) 205x1
Bench press not sure; 135x13 most recent so 1RM maybe 185 or so?
Press 100x5
DL 215x9
Snatch 130x1
Power snatch 115x1
Clean 175x1
Power clean 165x1
Jerk 175x1
C&J 165x1
Overhead squat 155x1
Age 28 years (I PR this every day!)
Height 6'4" / 191cm
Weight 205 lbs / 91 kg
Bodyfat % probably 20something. Skinny-fat.

Athletic background:
Age 0-26 NOTHING. Bookworm. Skinny. Weighed 145 lbs in high school at 6'4" height!
Age 26 started Crossfit, did maybe 18 months? This included a 1 month Olympic lifting cycle and a 2 month powerlifting cycle. At this point my maxes were roughly the same as they are now, DL was a little weaker and presses were weaker, bodyweight roughly 190 lbs. I realized that these numbers were unacceptable and I wanted to get stronger via a dedicated strength program (Crossfit is fine for fun and games but not for getting strong).
Took a break from Crossfit and began Starting Strength. Diet was eating a lot + 1/2 gallon of milk per day. Bodyweight went up to 205, squat 200x3x3, DL 235x3, bench 155x5x5 after roughly 10 weeks. As a result of the milk (probably), I got a stomach ulcer and stopped both the program and the diet. Over the next few months bodyweight went back down to 190, strength back down in the toilet as I recovered from the ulcer (not able to eat much). Did crossfit during this time.
This brings us to About 8 months ago when I started 5/3/1. I know this is not a novice program (which my numbers say I am) but SS was a bit too aggressive for me I think so I was hoping a more measured pace would give me steady results. This has brought my lifts to their current state where I'm beginning to stall again. Diet right now is again eating a lot but taking it easier on the milk. Bodyweight is back at 205 and hopefully still climbing.

So! The problem is I am very weak! Any experienced barbell trainee knows that a male my age without any significant physical disabilities should be able to squat roughly 1.5x BW, DL roughly 2x BW, etc. and I am far from it. The frustrating thing for me is that I think your typical dude can achieve these numbers with a (relative) minimum of effort. I've put in a lot of effort under the barbell and not seen very good gains. So please MMM community, help me diagnose the problem!

Some other relevant data:
Sleep is good - roughly 9 hours a night. Very rare that I do not get these hours.
Technique is fine. Squat max is 205 while clean max is 175 - I think that's a decent indicator of technique for the clean and I think my technique on other lifts is equally good.
Mobility is fine.
Diet may be the biggest issue. I don't measure my food in any way, so I don't really know how many calories I'm getting or what my macro breakdown is. I basically drink milk + protein powder, eat a lot of protein and fat and veggies and I'm not too strict about "bad" carbs right now in the interest of gaining weight.

Whew! Sorry, long post. Any opinions and advice would be much appreciated. Maybe I just need to go on the powerlifter "XL pizza + bottle of olive oil per day" diet?

Crash87

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 04:34:25 PM »
5/3/1 is a good program. I'd stick with it if I were you.

My only advice is to start tracking your food. I use and like Myfitnesspal since the iphone app will scan food barcodes and the food database seems pretty complete. A generic goal would be to eat 15 x your body weight plus about 300 calories with 1 g/lb being protein with the rest being roughly 25% fat and 75% carbs.

So start at 3375 calories consisting of 205g protein, 479g carbs, and 71g fat and adjust the number of calories you eat based on your rate of weight gain/loss. As always, try to keep away from trans fats and sugar.

Also, don't forget your rest days, deload weeks, and to make a chart to track your progess.

I'm working on gaining weight/muscle too, so good luck to both of us!

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 04:49:19 PM »
Current maxes:
Squat (Olympic) 205x1
Bench press not sure; 135x13 most recent so 1RM maybe 185 or so?
Press 100x5
DL 215x9
Snatch 130x1
Power snatch 115x1
Clean 175x1
Power clean 165x1
Jerk 175x1
C&J 165x1
Overhead squat 155x1
Age 28 years (I PR this every day!)
Height 6'4" / 191cm
Weight 205 lbs / 91 kg
Bodyfat % probably 20something. Skinny-fat.

So! The problem is I am very weak! Any experienced barbell trainee knows that a male my age without any significant physical disabilities should be able to squat roughly 1.5x BW, DL roughly 2x BW, etc. and I am far from it. The frustrating thing for me is that I think your typical dude can achieve these numbers with a (relative) minimum of effort. I've put in a lot of effort under the barbell and not seen very good gains. So please MMM community, help me diagnose the problem!

First point, yes, those are some basic strength goals, but the way you are looking at it is wrong.  You CAN get to those numbers, you just haven't done it yet.  They're not numbers that a healthy male your age just walks in off the street and hits.  They still take time to work up to, but they are goals that people who consistently strength train will eventually get to.  IE, you don't need to resort to steroids or an olympic athlete's training methods to hit them.  Also, remember that the bodyweight multiple can screw reality.  Reality is, most people walking around this planet can't squat 315lbs.  That's pretty good, so don't think you need to squat 370 or whatever 1.5x your bodyweight is right now to be considered strong.  Most humans can't do it.  Which brings us to what you've done so far:

Quote
Athletic background:

Age 0-26 NOTHING.

Age 26 started Crossfit, did maybe 18 months? This included a 1 month Olympic lifting cycle and a 2 month powerlifting cycle.

Took a break from Crossfit and began Starting Strength. 10 weeks.

Over the next few months bodyweight went back down to 190, strength back down in the toilet as I recovered from the ulcer (not able to eat much). Did crossfit during this time.

about 8 months 5/3/1.

The second point is, ~1.5 years of actual strength training is NOT a lot of time.  You've actually made fair progress for that amount of time.  With another year of smart programming, you should be very close to them.

Quote
SS was a bit too aggressive for me I think so I was hoping a more measured pace would give me steady results. This has brought my lifts to their current state where I'm beginning to stall again. Diet right now is again eating a lot but taking it easier on the milk. Bodyweight is back at 205 and hopefully still climbing.

What does "too aggressive" mean?  You couldn't squat 205 for a few sets of 5?  You couldn't squat 210?  What?  It's not going to feel 'light' for a long time, so if you are discouraged because the weight still "feels heavy," then change your mentality.  You should be adding 5 lbs (unless you have smaller plates) to everything each workout.

What is "beginning to stall?"  The last workout felt 'really hard,' so you don't know if you'll be able to hit your reps the next time?  That's the nature of the beast with linear programs like SS, you are adapting so fast that your 1rm is changing each workout, as Rippetoe says.  Don't fail before you touch the bar.

I think a really good progression will be to go through a couple resets with SS, then try out the Texas Method/Madcow 5x5 type program.  Probably the strongest I've ever been in my life was when I was using Madcow 5x5.  But I was already at a decent level of strength.

Quote
Diet may be the biggest issue. I don't measure my food in any way, so I don't really know how many calories I'm getting or what my macro breakdown is. I basically drink milk + protein powder, eat a lot of protein and fat and veggies and I'm not too strict about "bad" carbs right now in the interest of gaining weight.

Track this.  Almost all people who tend towards skinnyness chronically undereat when trying to gain size unless they track it.  Much the same way people who trend towards obesity eat way to fucking much when they don't track it.

Quote
Whew! Sorry, long post. Any opinions and advice would be much appreciated. Maybe I just need to go on the powerlifter "XL pizza + bottle of olive oil per day" diet?

Maybe, if you like pizza.  Find foods you like, and eat a lot of it.

tuyop

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 06:52:19 AM »
So! The problem is I am very weak! Any experienced barbell trainee knows that a male my age without any significant physical disabilities should be able to squat roughly 1.5x BW, DL roughly 2x BW, etc. and I am far from it. The frustrating thing for me is that I think your typical dude can achieve these numbers with a (relative) minimum of effort. I've put in a lot of effort under the barbell and not seen very good gains. So please MMM community, help me diagnose the problem!

That's nonsense, it took me a very long time to hit 2xBW DL, and I've never been able to hit a 1.5xBW Bench press. That's not the stuff to worry about, your goal should be "progress", with a benchmark of a nice round number like a 315 squat if you want.

Keep in mind, the strength standards for your lifts:

Untrained
An individual who has not trained on the exercises before but can perform them correctly.

Novice
An individual who has trained regularly for up to several months.

Intermediate
An individual who has trained regularly for up to a couple years.

Advanced
An individual who has trained multiple years.

Elite
An athlete competing in strength sports. Keep in mind, the standards shown in the tables do not represent the highest level of strength performance possible.


My own lifts are between intermediate and advanced, or just at advanced (woo deadlifts!), and I've been more or less avidly lifting for about seven years. (Injuries suck)

What you need to do to correct the problem is 1. simplify and follow your program, and 2. eat more (or enough if you're really at ~20%BF).

If you're on 5/3/1, then that's simplified and seems to work for most people. Just don't go off the program or be lazy.

As for 2. Just eat everything if you have to. Like, eat all the eggs. You should really measure your food though, the fitness megathread has a good primer on that.

Roastonbone

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 10:15:09 AM »
Thanks everyone for the advice. I suppose it is time for me to stop assuming that eating "more than is comfortable" is going to be a good enough metric and start actually measuring.

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 11:05:29 AM »
As for 2. Just eat everything if you have to. Like, eat all the eggs. You should really measure your food though, the fitness megathread has a good primer on that.

Wait... I just want to make sure you heard what I said.  I think you heard "Bring me some bacon and eggs."  What I said was, "Bring me all the bacon and eggs you have."

Roastonbone

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 03:01:34 PM »
As for 2. Just eat everything if you have to. Like, eat all the eggs. You should really measure your food though, the fitness megathread has a good primer on that.

Wait... I just want to make sure you heard what I said.  I think you heard "Bring me some bacon and eggs."  What I said was, "Bring me all the bacon and eggs you have."

Yeah, I'm already sort of in that mentality :) My wife has gotten in the habit of bringing an iPad to restaurants not out of rudeness but because she knows that after she is done eating, I will continue for at least another 20 minutes. And I am admittedly not a great conversationalist while still eating.

tuyop

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 03:47:06 PM »
As for 2. Just eat everything if you have to. Like, eat all the eggs. You should really measure your food though, the fitness megathread has a good primer on that.

Wait... I just want to make sure you heard what I said.  I think you heard "Bring me some bacon and eggs."  What I said was, "Bring me all the bacon and eggs you have."

Yeah, I'm already sort of in that mentality :) My wife has gotten in the habit of bringing an iPad to restaurants not out of rudeness but because she knows that after she is done eating, I will continue for at least another 20 minutes. And I am admittedly not a great conversationalist while still eating.

Bonus: eat the ipad use the ipad to track the calories on the mug full of melted butter that you're spooning into your monstrous powerlifting maw.

tylerherman

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 12:03:20 PM »
Not saying this is with you but I've noticed with people who have never really played sports don't know how to push themselves physically.

Are you lifting to fail? Because if you're not you should be. If you really want to get stronger you should be lifting enough weight that you can't do a single extra rep. When I started lifting seriously about 2 years ago, each muscle group was crazy sore for about 1-4 days after, for at least the first 6 months. To build muscle you got to tear it up.

To really push yourself you need a good workout partner. Having a spotter will allow you to push to fail without getting hurt. Plus, working with someone stronger than you will get your lifts up higher, faster. So much of it is mental and when you see someone else doing it you'll step up and do the same.

Stop doing so much compound movements like cleans and focus on specific muscles. Bench, squat, rows, curls, flies, dips, pull-ups.

Crossfit is good for overall health but if you want to maximize strength its far from ideal.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 12:07:25 PM by tylerherman »

Crash87

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2013, 04:15:44 PM »
Stop doing so much compound movements like cleans and focus on specific muscles. Bench, squat, rows, curls, flies, dips, pull-ups.

Compound movements FTW. You tear down more muscle groups to build up more muscle groups.

If you just want to look strong with big arms or something specific you can focus on that I guess.

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2013, 04:17:22 PM »
Not saying this is with you but I've noticed with people who have never really played sports don't know how to push themselves physically.

Are you lifting to fail? Because if you're not you should be. If you really want to get stronger you should be lifting enough weight that you can't do a single extra rep. When I started lifting seriously about 2 years ago, each muscle group was crazy sore for about 1-4 days after, for at least the first 6 months. To build muscle you got to tear it up.

To really push yourself you need a good workout partner. Having a spotter will allow you to push to fail without getting hurt. Plus, working with someone stronger than you will get your lifts up higher, faster. So much of it is mental and when you see someone else doing it you'll step up and do the same.

Stop doing so much compound movements like cleans and focus on specific muscles. Bench, squat, rows, curls, flies, dips, pull-ups.

Crossfit is good for overall health but if you want to maximize strength its far from ideal.

So you squat to failure huh?  I'd love to see that, got a vid?

arebelspy

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2013, 04:19:57 PM »
So you squat to failure huh?  I'd love to see that, got a vid?

Heh.

Let us know if any are good.
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Kriegsspiel

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2013, 06:22:05 PM »
So you squat to failure huh?  I'd love to see that, got a vid?

Heh.

Let us know if any are good.

Not the right type of failing.

GuitarStv

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2013, 06:21:51 AM »
Eh, he recommends curls as an essential compound movement to train strength, and apparently is unaware of using safeties when training alone . . . any advice received must be viewed through a broscience filter.

Sparafusile

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2013, 08:21:09 AM »
So you squat to failure huh?  I'd love to see that, got a vid?

I've gone to failure on squats before accidentally. All it consists of is dropping the bar and looking embarrassed. It sounds like you'd expect me to ride the bar to the ground or something. I've gone to failure on deadlift too although that's less spectacular. The only thing I don't go to failure on is barbell bench press because you're under the weight when your arms give out. I have no problem going to failure with dumbell bench press though.

For a few exercises I specifically go to failure repeatedly. Preacher curls are a good example. Put too much eight on the bar, use your body to lift the weight and then hold it until failure. I like to add statics and negatives to my normal exercises whenever feasible.

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2013, 11:12:06 AM »
Eh, he recommends curls as an essential compound movement to train strength, and apparently is unaware of using safeties when training alone . . . any advice received must be viewed through a broscience filter.

No, tyler was saying to STOP doing so many compound movements, and CONCENTRATE on isolation movements. Just clarifying, since I don't agree with him except on the sports and Crossfit points.

GuitarStv

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2013, 11:22:07 AM »
Eh, he recommends curls as an essential compound movement to train strength, and apparently is unaware of using safeties when training alone . . . any advice received must be viewed through a broscience filter.

No, tyler was saying to STOP doing so many compound movements, and CONCENTRATE on isolation movements. Just clarifying, since I don't agree with him except on the sports and Crossfit points.

My mistake, I misread.  In that case, he recommends squats, rows, the bench press, and pull ups as isolation movements.  :S

Crash87

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2013, 05:03:25 PM »
So you squat to failure huh?  I'd love to see that, got a vid?

I'm not cool enough to video tape myself squatting, but I squat to failure every week. Not a problem in a squat rack.

Roastonbone

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2013, 04:51:38 PM »
Gotta agree with the consensus that compound lifts are the way to go. And yeah, I haven't done Crossfit in like a year.
And I do train more or less to failure, as that's one of the principles of the 5/3/1 program. Most lifts are easy to bail, especially with bumper plates - only exception being the bench press.

Had a major setback due to a freak chest injury; trying to get back into the swing of things nowadays.

Crash87

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2013, 04:14:23 PM »
Gotta agree with the consensus that compound lifts are the way to go. And yeah, I haven't done Crossfit in like a year.
And I do train more or less to failure, as that's one of the principles of the 5/3/1 program. Most lifts are easy to bail, especially with bumper plates - only exception being the bench press.

5/3/1 rocks!

Benching to fail is great if you can snag a spotter. They can make you really work on that last rep you would have failed on without assistance. If you're having trouble with bench in a home gym, I've seen benches before with a low rack you can use to bail out on the failure rep. Maybe something like that would help?

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2013, 06:51:54 PM »
This is how I used to set it up when I lifted alone.  Just get your regular arch and adjust the pins in a squat rack to where they can catch the bar if you just let it fall down towards your throat/face.  It's scary the first time, but pins are metal.

Cromacster

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Re: Help with Bigmanification
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2013, 06:58:43 AM »

I've gone to failure on squats before accidentally. All it consists of is dropping the bar and looking embarrassed.

Embarrassed? why?  Sounds like you are doing it wrong. Avoiding failure on squats is failing. 

Here is some grown ass man strength, and he fails everyday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYScDcm9qBI
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 07:01:51 AM by Cromacster »

 

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