Author Topic: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?  (Read 19609 times)

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #150 on: January 23, 2019, 02:05:49 PM »
From what is reported, both their High School and the Catholic diocese apologized.


From the Washington Post:
"In a joint statement to the Cincinnati Enquirer , the Roman Catholic Diocese of Covington and Covington Catholic High School apologized to Nathan Phillips, an Omaha elder and Vietnam veteran who attended the Indigenous Peoples March in Washington on Friday. The march coincided with the annual March for Life, an anti-abortion rally attended by some students at Covington Catholic High School in northern Kentucky.

Officials say the students’ behavior is opposed to the church’s teachings on the dignity and respect of the human person."

Yes, sorry, the school and diocese did apologize. Quickly, in fact. And they were right to do so.

It will be interesting to see what they do following all the PR firm stuff, and what is likely to be a lot of pressure from the MAGA kids' parents not to punish them. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually release a statement backtracking on the apology and saying that no one really knows what happened. I'm guessing, given the reaction of the main kid's family, that many of the parents might be really pissed the school and diocese apologized, thereby acknowledging that what they did was, in fact, wrong.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #151 on: January 23, 2019, 02:07:33 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at. 

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #152 on: January 23, 2019, 02:18:58 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me. 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 02:24:34 PM by Midwest »

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #153 on: January 23, 2019, 02:29:56 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me.

Have you heard anybody defending them and arguing that we should assume that their intentions were good?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 02:33:38 PM by shenlong55 »

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #154 on: January 23, 2019, 02:32:37 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally. If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.


Lol, even if you were at a Native American rally?

I'm sorry, that's pretty disingenuous.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #155 on: January 23, 2019, 02:34:56 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me.


We don't know for sure but the two women stated these were the same kids. What little we can see they were dressed the same (including MAGA hats) yelling the same things "Maga, Build the Wall" (but also slut). Honestly they look like a bunch of pissants and at least in this case, not going to give them the doubt. OK, if you were a high school student and "confused" by a Native American singing and drumming right next to you, is your response a smirking stare down for minutes? while your friends howl behind you?  Or would you at some point avert your eyes and step aside?

You know what? I went on a trip to DC in junior high and yeah some of the students (especially the boys) acted badly, yelling out of the school bus, unscrewing salt and pepper shakers so the next diner would dump salt or pepper on their food. But they knew they were being dickwads and if caught, would take the punishment. The fact you even have grown ups, even Trump trying to deflect or excuse their poor behavior is NOT making this a teachable moment for these kids. Do I think they need to expelled? No. But being publically shamed and seeing that their actions have consequences, including having to make an apology, I'm totally fine with that. Geesh. I sound like an old person. 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 02:42:59 PM by partgypsy »

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #156 on: January 23, 2019, 02:45:31 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me.

Have you heard anybody defending them and saying how their intentions were good?

Nope, but the students are being criticized for not apologizing and nobody else involved is being criticized in this is in this thread.  I don't think the students were blameless or perfect, but a) they are kids b) the situation is not as cut and dried as initially portrayed and c) the initial reaction and hatred by some against these kids has been horrifying. 

You may think these kids are in the wrong, but joking about their deaths and trying to impact their lives is not acceptable.  I've seen less anger against actual criminals than these kids. 


Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #157 on: January 23, 2019, 02:47:53 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally. If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.


Lol, even if you were at a Native American rally?

I'm sorry, that's pretty disingenuous.

They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #158 on: January 23, 2019, 02:51:42 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me.


We don't know for sure but the two women stated these were the same kids. What little we can see they were dressed the same (including MAGA hats) yelling the same things "Maga, Build the Wall" (but also slut). Honestly they look like a bunch of pissants and at least in this case, not going to give them the doubt. OK, if you were a high school student and "confused" by a Native American singing and drumming right next to you, is your response a smirking stare down for minutes? while your friends howl behind you?  Or would you at some point avert your eyes and step aside?

You know what? I went on a trip to DC in junior high and yeah some of the students (especially the boys) acted badly, yelling out of the school bus, unscrewing salt and pepper shakers so the next diner would dump salt or pepper on their food. But they knew they were being dickwads and if caught, would take the punishment. The fact you even have grown ups, even Trump trying to deflect or excuse their poor behavior is NOT making this a teachable moment for these kids. Do I think they need to expelled? No. But being publically shamed and seeing that their actions have consequences, including having to make an apology, I'm totally fine with that. Geesh. I sound like an old person.

At least you are honest.  You aren't going to give them the benefit of the doubt because they were wearing MAGA hats and at pro-life rally.  As a society, we are looking for a reason to destroy people we don't agree with.  Both sides are guilty, but this is a pretty bad example. 

They have been a lot more than publicly shamed.  This kind of stuff - https://www.thewrap.com/film-producer-jack-morrissey-apologizes-for-deleted-covington-woodchipper-tweet/, is f'd up.



« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 02:53:28 PM by Midwest »

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #159 on: January 23, 2019, 02:56:31 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally. If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.


Lol, even if you were at a Native American rally?

I'm sorry, that's pretty disingenuous.

They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

You know freedom of assembly is a thing, right? And that the Rally for Indigenous People was scheduled for that day?

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #160 on: January 23, 2019, 03:08:46 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally. If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.


Lol, even if you were at a Native American rally?

I'm sorry, that's pretty disingenuous.

They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

You know freedom of assembly is a thing, right? And that the Rally for Indigenous People was scheduled for that day?

and the students were free to congregate in a public place when the approached by this gentlemen.  You are implying they were attending a native american rally.  Was Nathan Phillips attending a pro-life rally by virtue of being in DC on that day?  Give me a break.  I don't know what his intentions were or weren't, but the students were not attending in an native american rally.  He approached them. 

No matter what his intentions were or were not, it was a confusing situation. 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 03:10:57 PM by Midwest »

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #161 on: January 23, 2019, 03:19:09 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally. If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.


Lol, even if you were at a Native American rally?

I'm sorry, that's pretty disingenuous.

They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

You know freedom of assembly is a thing, right? And that the Rally for Indigenous People was scheduled for that day?

and the students were free to congregate in a public place when the approached by this gentlemen.  You are implying they were attending a native american rally.  Was Nathan Phillips attending a pro-life rally by virtue of being in DC on that day?  Give me a break.  I don't know what his intentions were or weren't, but the students were not attending in an native american rally.  He approached them. 

No matter what his intentions were or were not, it was a confusing situation.

FFS.

My point -- which was a response to your totally disingenuous claim that the innocent MAGA lamb would be confused if someone came up to him banging a drum, was that UM FUCKING NO THEY WOULDN'T because there was a Native American rally scheduled right there. For that day. With drums and stuff.

Honestly this is just too ridiculous. I'm so grossed out by the level of blatant pretense here that I'm just gonna bow out.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #162 on: January 23, 2019, 03:24:50 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally. If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.


Lol, even if you were at a Native American rally?

I'm sorry, that's pretty disingenuous.

They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

You know freedom of assembly is a thing, right? And that the Rally for Indigenous People was scheduled for that day?

and the students were free to congregate in a public place when the approached by this gentlemen.  You are implying they were attending a native american rally.  Was Nathan Phillips attending a pro-life rally by virtue of being in DC on that day?  Give me a break.  I don't know what his intentions were or weren't, but the students were not attending in an native american rally.  He approached them. 

No matter what his intentions were or were not, it was a confusing situation.

FFS.

My point -- which was a response to your totally disingenuous claim that the innocent MAGA lamb would be confused if someone came up to him banging a drum, was that UM FUCKING NO THEY WOULDN'T because there was a Native American rally scheduled right there. For that day. With drums and stuff.

Honestly this is just too ridiculous. I'm so grossed out by the level of blatant pretense here that I'm just gonna bow out.

a) I didn't claim the student was totally innocent b) There may have been a Native American rally going on, but the student was not a participant despite your assertions to the contrary.

This kid was standing in a public place and a guy came up and started beating a drum in his face.  From the video I've seen, Nathan Phillips approached him drum in hand.  It's a weird situation. 

This kid was at a pro-life rally.  If he was running up with to random people with his pro-life banner, it would be weird for them as well.

I don't think all of these kids were totally innocent, but you are holding them to a different standard. 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 03:33:53 PM by Midwest »

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #163 on: January 23, 2019, 03:52:16 PM »
This kid was standing in a public place and a guy came up and started beating a drum in his face.  From the video I've seen, Nathan Phillips approached him drum in hand.  It's a weird situation.
To be fair it was already pointed out (by someone else trying to exonerate the kids) that Nathan walked into the crowd. The boy he confronted happened to be the one that didn't move. He didn't purposefully single him out. Others did move and then closed back in to surround him and his friends.

Quote
This kid was at a pro-life rally.  If he was running up with to random people with his pro-life banner, it would be weird for them as well.
Seems strange to me they were yelling "MAGA and "Build the Wall" to a couple women who perceived it as harassment. Pretty sure you can hear one of them yell "slut" as well. Listen closely:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Quote
I don't think all of these kids were totally innocent, but you are holding them to a different standard.
They are being held to a different standard. The black Hebrews are being called out for vile racist hatred. Nathan is apparently being called out for banging a drum too close to a kids face. And according to many, the kids are heroes and did nothing wrong. 

cliffhanger

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #164 on: January 23, 2019, 03:53:27 PM »
I wasn't clear I'm sorry. The frustration I have is that it often feels like that is the only assumption being made. It's they're racist and that's it. Is it only the white Trump supporters that are racist or are the minorities that support him racist as well? It's very confusing. Mitt Romney was considered racist when he ran in 2012. Is he still? Was he then? Or was it just because he was a conservative?  It just seems that if you are conservative then you're automatically racist.

What do you mean by this?  Are there assumptions that you think should be made that aren't being made?

How about the assumption that a person's actions are done with good intent? Even when you disagree with them and they voted Trump.

This comment was in response to OneStep's feeling that many people are quick to assume Trump supporters are racist or have malicious intent in their support for Trump.

Not sure where the punch in the face analogy came from. Literally no one disagrees those who commit acts of violence against another do not have good intentions.

I suppose I could be more direct in that case: Do you think those that support Trump generally have good and non-racist intentions?

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #165 on: January 23, 2019, 04:17:04 PM »
This kid was standing in a public place and a guy came up and started beating a drum in his face.  From the video I've seen, Nathan Phillips approached him drum in hand.  It's a weird situation.
To be fair it was already pointed out (by someone else trying to exonerate the kids) that Nathan walked into the crowd. The boy he confronted happened to be the one that didn't move. He didn't purposefully single him out. Others did move and then closed back in to surround him and his friends.

Quote
This kid was at a pro-life rally.  If he was running up with to random people with his pro-life banner, it would be weird for them as well.
Seems strange to me they were yelling "MAGA and "Build the Wall" to a couple women who perceived it as harassment. Pretty sure you can hear one of them yell "slut" as well. Listen closely:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Quote
I don't think all of these kids were totally innocent, but you are holding them to a different standard.
They are being held to a different standard. The black Hebrews are being called out for vile racist hatred. Nathan is apparently being called out for banging a drum too close to a kids face. And according to many, the kids are heroes and did nothing wrong.

Stache - I don't hear them say those things.  Maybe I missed it.  If somebody did say it, should the entire group be vilified for the actions of a few?  Especially the kid at the center of this.  He's standing there looking at a guy beating a drum.  Does anybody have any proof he did anything but that?

I don't think the kids are totally innocent, but they have been vilified and criticized for defending themselves.  Then there are complaints they don't apologize but no similar calls to apology for the other parties that contributed to this.

Given the absurdity of some of the things said about some of them (doxing, trying to get them kicked out of school, etc), I'd have a hard apologizing at this point too.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 04:24:23 PM by Midwest »

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #166 on: January 23, 2019, 04:29:56 PM »
This kid was standing in a public place and a guy came up and started beating a drum in his face.  From the video I've seen, Nathan Phillips approached him drum in hand.  It's a weird situation.
To be fair it was already pointed out (by someone else trying to exonerate the kids) that Nathan walked into the crowd. The boy he confronted happened to be the one that didn't move. He didn't purposefully single him out. Others did move and then closed back in to surround him and his friends.

Quote
This kid was at a pro-life rally.  If he was running up with to random people with his pro-life banner, it would be weird for them as well.
Seems strange to me they were yelling "MAGA and "Build the Wall" to a couple women who perceived it as harassment. Pretty sure you can hear one of them yell "slut" as well. Listen closely:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Quote
I don't think all of these kids were totally innocent, but you are holding them to a different standard.
They are being held to a different standard. The black Hebrews are being called out for vile racist hatred. Nathan is apparently being called out for banging a drum too close to a kids face. And according to many, the kids are heroes and did nothing wrong.

Stache - I don't hear them say those things.  Maybe I missed it.  If somebody did say it, should the entire group be vilified for the actions of a few?  Especially the kid at the center of this.  He's standing there looking at a guy beating a drum.  Does anybody have any proof he did anything but that?

I don't think the kids are totally innocent, but they have been vilified and criticized for defending themselves.  Then there are complaints they don't apologize but no similar calls to apology for the other parties that contributed to this.

Given the absurdity of some of the things said about some of them (doxing, trying to get them kicked out of school, etc), I'd have a hard apologizing at this point too.

Click on the link I posted and scroll down to the video.

Regardless of what people are saying about them (and yes some if it is absurdly unfair) it's not an excuse to not own up to your actions. Perhaps the kid confronted by Nathan has nothing to apologize for, but some of them sure as shit do. 

It's pointless to keep talking about this. I hope Nathan and Nick along with other students (perhaps the ones thinking it was funny to mock the Native Americans) can get together and talk. Again, it would be a great learning experience for all involved.   
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 04:34:24 PM by MasterStache »

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #167 on: January 23, 2019, 04:40:01 PM »
This kid was standing in a public place and a guy came up and started beating a drum in his face.  From the video I've seen, Nathan Phillips approached him drum in hand.  It's a weird situation.
To be fair it was already pointed out (by someone else trying to exonerate the kids) that Nathan walked into the crowd. The boy he confronted happened to be the one that didn't move. He didn't purposefully single him out. Others did move and then closed back in to surround him and his friends.

Quote
This kid was at a pro-life rally.  If he was running up with to random people with his pro-life banner, it would be weird for them as well.
Seems strange to me they were yelling "MAGA and "Build the Wall" to a couple women who perceived it as harassment. Pretty sure you can hear one of them yell "slut" as well. Listen closely:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Quote
I don't think all of these kids were totally innocent, but you are holding them to a different standard.
They are being held to a different standard. The black Hebrews are being called out for vile racist hatred. Nathan is apparently being called out for banging a drum too close to a kids face. And according to many, the kids are heroes and did nothing wrong.

Stache - I don't hear them say those things.  Maybe I missed it.  If somebody did say it, should the entire group be vilified for the actions of a few?  Especially the kid at the center of this.  He's standing there looking at a guy beating a drum.  Does anybody have any proof he did anything but that?

I don't think the kids are totally innocent, but they have been vilified and criticized for defending themselves.  Then there are complaints they don't apologize but no similar calls to apology for the other parties that contributed to this.

Given the absurdity of some of the things said about some of them (doxing, trying to get them kicked out of school, etc), I'd have a hard apologizing at this point too.

Click on the link I posted and scroll down to the video.

Regardless of what people are saying about them (and yes some if it is absurdly unfair) it's not an excuse to not own up to your actions. Perhaps the kid confronted by Nathan has nothing to apologize for, but some of them sure as shit do.

I did look at the video, maybe I missed it.  Some of them may have something to apologize for, but calling for their deaths is insane.  I have seen no proof that the kid at the center of this did anything other than stand there.  Since he's been the one interviewed and people in this thread are calling for an apology, I'm assuming they want one from him.  If he did anything other than stand there with a smirk, I haven't seen it. 

I don't think this kid is a hero, but he's not the anti-christ he's being portrayed to be.  If he didn't do anything but stand there, he shouldn't apologize.  Nothing he says will be good enough anyway.

I agree with you that everybody could learn from this. 

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #168 on: January 23, 2019, 04:46:15 PM »
I did look at the video, maybe I missed it. 

When you click on the article the video is further down the page. It's only 8 second long as one of the girls being harassed filmed it. 

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #169 on: January 23, 2019, 04:53:32 PM »
I did look at the video, maybe I missed it. 

When you click on the article the video is further down the page. It's only 8 second long as one of the girls being harassed filmed it.

Looks like immature high school assholes.  If they are the same kids, it proves they are immature high school kids acting like assholes.  If smirking kid is in that video, he should apologize for it but I certainly can't tell. 

DreamFIRE

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #170 on: January 23, 2019, 05:43:53 PM »
The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

And you won't.  The Black Hebrew Israelites are the most guilty ones here and started the whole thing, but we can't let Phillips off the hook.  He was never deployed to Vietnam and was not truthful when discussing the event.  The students were surprisingly reserved despite how they were being treated by the Black Israelites and having their personal space invaded by the native American.  I doubt most adults on this forum would have kept their composure as well as those young students.  A lesson can be learned here from those students, and a big one should have been learned by all of the people who jumped to conclusions about the fake news including the mainstream media, who completely left the racist Black Israelites out of the news story and tried to build up Phillips as a Vietnam veteran, when he isn't.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #171 on: January 24, 2019, 08:18:52 AM »
@Kris , for the Covington story, you do not have command of the facts, and as a result you’ve participated in and advanced the smearing of high school kids. 

Here’s my suggestion: Watch the longform video with an open mind and decide for yourself.  Here's the most complete version I could find.  I'm serious,  if you actually care about truth -- and I've always thought you did -- then watch the video. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igFBDp8wCEU

You'll see your mistake.  After you confirm that mistake, then by your own standards, outlined on page 3, you should apologize: 

Quote
If your actual intentions are good, then apologizing ought to be easy. As should be a willingness to accept that your intentions didn't match the actual outcome.

If your reaction is instead defensiveness -- which is a reaction that pulls the attention back on YOU rather than the person you've harmed... well, then yeah, it kind of calls into question your intention in the first place.

If you really, really don’t want to apologize, and abide by your own standards, then do what the NY Times did, and instead, just talk about how a “Fuller Picture is Emerging” of the story, which is maybe the shittiest non-apology I’ve seen from a reputable media outlet. 

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/nathan-phillips-interview-cnn-falsehoods-inconsistencies/

FFS. I have watched it. I watched it on Saturday Sunday morning. Pretty sure I've already said that above. I've watched it again since. I'm also pretty sure I outlined in a comment above two minutes of the video that to me refute what people seem to think that video proves.

But yeah. I get that the National Review is a conservative paper.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #172 on: January 24, 2019, 08:50:03 AM »
@Kris

It's pretty sad that a lifelong Democrat (me) had to get the real story from The National Review. Believe me, that was the last place I looked for it. 

Were you going to apologize then, or no?

Um, to whom? To you? And for what?

vern

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #173 on: January 24, 2019, 08:53:07 AM »
Those kids have become the Emmanuel Goldstein of 2019.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvGmOZ5T6_Y

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #174 on: January 24, 2019, 09:14:26 AM »
Those kids have become the Emmanuel Goldstein of 2019.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvGmOZ5T6_Y

So, 1984 is one of the many books still on my list of books to read, so I had to look up Emmanuel Goldstein.  In doing so, I stumbled upon an interesting line on Wikipedia...

"The widespread vilification of Nixon in the wake of the Watergate scandal inspired commentary comparing his treatment in the media with the Two Minutes Hate sessions focused on Goldstein."

Jouer

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #175 on: January 24, 2019, 11:03:39 AM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me.

Have you heard anybody defending them and saying how their intentions were good?

Nope, but the students are being criticized for not apologizing and nobody else involved is being criticized in this is in this thread.  I don't think the students were blameless or perfect, but a) they are kids b) the situation is not as cut and dried as initially portrayed and c) the initial reaction and hatred by some against these kids has been horrifying. 

You may think these kids are in the wrong, but joking about their deaths and trying to impact their lives is not acceptable.  I've seen less anger against actual criminals than these kids.

No one expects BHI to apologize b/c they are what they are. They are obnoxious and they were acting obnoxious. We don't expect any different.

We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #176 on: January 24, 2019, 11:15:43 AM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me.

Have you heard anybody defending them and saying how their intentions were good?

Nope, but the students are being criticized for not apologizing and nobody else involved is being criticized in this is in this thread.  I don't think the students were blameless or perfect, but a) they are kids b) the situation is not as cut and dried as initially portrayed and c) the initial reaction and hatred by some against these kids has been horrifying. 

You may think these kids are in the wrong, but joking about their deaths and trying to impact their lives is not acceptable.  I've seen less anger against actual criminals than these kids.

No one expects BHI to apologize b/c they are what they are. They are obnoxious and they were acting obnoxious. We don't expect any different.

We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

Thank you!  That's pretty much what I was trying (and apparently failing) to express.

GuitarStv

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #177 on: January 24, 2019, 11:24:03 AM »
We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

I don't expect any real repercussions for the kids because they're white Christian boys.

I also don't believe that their lives should be ruined . . . but also do believe there should be punishment for their actions from their parents and/or school.  Given that the boys felt perfectly OK to do what they did, I'd be pretty surprised if such punishment were forthcoming though.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #178 on: January 24, 2019, 11:58:43 AM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me.

Have you heard anybody defending them and saying how their intentions were good?

Nope, but the students are being criticized for not apologizing and nobody else involved is being criticized in this is in this thread.  I don't think the students were blameless or perfect, but a) they are kids b) the situation is not as cut and dried as initially portrayed and c) the initial reaction and hatred by some against these kids has been horrifying. 

You may think these kids are in the wrong, but joking about their deaths and trying to impact their lives is not acceptable.  I've seen less anger against actual criminals than these kids.

No one expects BHI to apologize b/c they are what they are. They are obnoxious and they were acting obnoxious. We don't expect any different.

We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

If a student said the things in bold, you are correct they should be punished by the school or their parents.  Completely agree.  The kid at the center of this, is there any proof he said those kind of thing?  If not, then why should he apologize and why has he been vilified and singled out?

20, 30 40 kids without parents, with their buddies and then being yelled at by the Black Hebrews, I have little doubt somebody said something they shouldn't.  Some of them might have done it without the Black Hebrews interaction, but the furor over this is insane.

Poundwise

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #179 on: January 24, 2019, 12:02:50 PM »
The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

And you won't.  The Black Hebrew Israelites are the most guilty ones here and started the whole thing, but we can't let Phillips off the hook.  He was never deployed to Vietnam and was not truthful when discussing the event.  The students were surprisingly reserved despite how they were being treated by the Black Israelites and having their personal space invaded by the native American.  I doubt most adults on this forum would have kept their composure as well as those young students.  A lesson can be learned here from those students, and a big one should have been learned by all of the people who jumped to conclusions about the fake news including the mainstream media, who completely left the racist Black Israelites out of the news story and tried to build up Phillips as a Vietnam veteran, when he isn't.

I agree that the Black Hebrew Israelites were offensive fruitcakes who started the whole thing.  It seems like there was a misunderstanding where the Native Americans saw a few old Black people in a conflict with a large number of young white men, and jumped to conclusions.  However, some of the kids appeared to be mocking the Native Americans... only they know what was in their hearts as they did it.

With respect to reports in the conservative press that Nathan Phillips is a fake: Phillips should be honored for his service... he signed up to be a Marine when he was probably younger than those students, during a time when serving his country could have meant death. The fact he probably wasn't deployed overseas should not be a cause for shame.  The last Marines did not leave Vietnam until 1975.

The "Recon Ranger" nickname may come from a Marine song, "Recon Ranger, Life of Danger", that apparently inspired a nickname for Marines stationed at or near Camp Pendleton, where there is a peak called Recon Ridge.

caffeine

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #180 on: January 24, 2019, 12:04:36 PM »
We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

I don't expect any real repercussions for the kids because they're white Christian boys.

I also don't believe that their lives should be ruined . . . but also do believe there should be punishment for their actions from their parents and/or school.  Given that the boys felt perfectly OK to do what they did, I'd be pretty surprised if such punishment were forthcoming though.

The facts as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong):

  • Members of a hate group are harassing teens with racial epithets and homophobic insults.
  • Teens react by mocking hate group
  • Nathan Philips decides intervenes because he sensed violence.
  • Nathan is aware of this sense because he served State side during "Vietnam Times"
  • Philips beats his drum into a crowd and is surrounded
  • His camera man tells the teens they're white, only know how to be white, and need to go back to Europe
  • Teens mock the drum
  • Teens (only a few) parody Native Americans
  • A twitter account @'2020fight accepted $20 to amplify a tweet
  • Tweet says: "This MAGA loser gleefully bothering a Native American protestor at Indigenous Peoples March" with 1 minute snippet of the events
  • The Media does a very, very poor job

What punishment would be warranted? How does being white excuse them OR how would a PoC be held to a different standard?

I ask because this seems to be an instance where scrutiny exists only because they're white.

The only reason this is a news story is because of the optics of MAGA hat, a smug grin, and a Native American all involved with a false narrative.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 12:15:43 PM by caffeine »

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #181 on: January 24, 2019, 12:16:43 PM »
I ask because this seems to be an instance where scrutiny exists only because they're white.

No! Not a single person has excused the behavior of the Black Hebrews. Some kids did indeed mock the Native Americans and there is also video footage of them harassing a couple girls. You can argue the level of scrutiny all you want (and thus many are). But to say the scrutiny exist "only" because of their skin color is ridiculous.   

Jouer

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #182 on: January 24, 2019, 12:54:39 PM »
Are you talking about the Black Hebrew group or the Native Americans? for the former it would certainly be nice if they acknowledged and apologized for yelling inciting language. But, they aren't really the subject of the video (students and phillips interaction was). Do you think the Phillips, or the Native Americans should apologize? If so, why? The students didn't seem to be in fear or threatened by him. He didn't yell anything inflammatory at them.

Do you think the students should also apologize to all the other people they yelled at during that day? I would be surprised if those two women were the only other people these students yelled at.

I'm referring to everyone involved. 

The Black Hebrews yelled all sorts of offensive things.  I haven't heard an apology from them.

With regard to the Nathan Phillips, I think his actions could have been misinterpreted and confusing especially given the situation.  In one portion of the video, he marched up to the kids.  If we are arguing the kids should apologize for misinterpreted intentions, I think that could apply equally.  If someone were banging a drum in my face, I would be confused as well.

I have no idea about other incidents.  If there were other incidents, do we know which kids were even involved?  I've been on trips with bad behaviors by my classmates that had nothing to do with me.

Have you heard anybody defending them and saying how their intentions were good?

Nope, but the students are being criticized for not apologizing and nobody else involved is being criticized in this is in this thread.  I don't think the students were blameless or perfect, but a) they are kids b) the situation is not as cut and dried as initially portrayed and c) the initial reaction and hatred by some against these kids has been horrifying. 

You may think these kids are in the wrong, but joking about their deaths and trying to impact their lives is not acceptable.  I've seen less anger against actual criminals than these kids.

No one expects BHI to apologize b/c they are what they are. They are obnoxious and they were acting obnoxious. We don't expect any different.

We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

If a student said the things in bold, you are correct they should be punished by the school or their parents.  Completely agree.  The kid at the center of this, is there any proof he said those kind of thing?  If not, then why should he apologize and why has he been vilified and singled out?

20, 30 40 kids without parents, with their buddies and then being yelled at by the Black Hebrews, I have little doubt somebody said something they shouldn't.  Some of them might have done it without the Black Hebrews interaction, but the furor over this is insane.

There is no if - the bolded was said on video by someone at the front of the group. The kid at the centre of this didn't seem to say anything. But based on the video of him laughing and carrying on, he sure enjoyed it. This was before his "stand-off" with Phillips. He has been singled out because of the first tweet that included a pic of him and his shit-eating grin. That grin showed he knew he was being an arshole but he was doing it anyways and there was nothing anyone could do about it. I don't think it's fair that he is the face of this issue, to be honest, but he's not some angelic student saying a private prayer. We know that much is 100% bullshit.

Since it's hard to say who started what, I'd give the group of them detention for a week or something and make them do a project on not being an arshole in situations like that. If they don't get at least that amount of punishment, they will know they can do this again. Oh, except the guy who said the rape comment - he should get way worse punishment. When I went to catholic school it would have been the strap across his ass - whatever the 2019 version of that is, I suppose. I'd also levy harsher punishments against anyone caught on camera doing the tomahawk and the guy who took his jacket and shirts off to rile up the crowd.

To anyone saying: "yea I did stupid stuff like that as a kid" remember that if you got caught you would have been in major shit.




GuitarStv

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #183 on: January 24, 2019, 01:37:31 PM »
We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

I don't expect any real repercussions for the kids because they're white Christian boys.

I also don't believe that their lives should be ruined . . . but also do believe there should be punishment for their actions from their parents and/or school.  Given that the boys felt perfectly OK to do what they did, I'd be pretty surprised if such punishment were forthcoming though.

The facts as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong):

  • Members of a hate group are harassing teens with racial epithets and homophobic insults.
  • Teens react by mocking hate group
  • Nathan Philips decides intervenes because he sensed violence.
  • Nathan is aware of this sense because he served State side during "Vietnam Times"
  • Philips beats his drum into a crowd and is surrounded
  • His camera man tells the teens they're white, only know how to be white, and need to go back to Europe
  • Teens mock the drum
  • Teens (only a few) parody Native Americans
  • A twitter account @'2020fight accepted $20 to amplify a tweet
  • Tweet says: "This MAGA loser gleefully bothering a Native American protestor at Indigenous Peoples March" with 1 minute snippet of the events
  • The Media does a very, very poor job

What punishment would be warranted? How does being white excuse them OR how would a PoC be held to a different standard?

I ask because this seems to be an instance where scrutiny exists only because they're white.

The only reason this is a news story is because of the optics of MAGA hat, a smug grin, and a Native American all involved with a false narrative.

I don't know how you were raised, but can tell you that I'd never have considered publicly mocking a native man.

My mother and father usually took away privileges to play video games, watch TV, use the phone, would have docked my allowance, instituted a curfew, and would have required that I do additional chores as general punishments for acting inappropriately.  Turns out this had the fringe benefit of preventing me from acting like a shit in public.

My suspicion is that the behavior seen from the children involved in the public mockery is a reflection of things that their parents find acceptable, which is why I doubt very much that any of the children will be reprimanded for any action.

You are right about one thing though.  The MAGA hat did contribute to the outcry regarding this story.  Wearing a MAGA hat is effectively an admission of racism.  The MAGA hat is the symbol of the unabashed racist currently in the White House.  It's similar to flying a confederate flag.  Now, technically wearing a MAGA hat or flying a confederate flag doesn't make you a racist.  There exist tepid arguments that it's not really about racism . . . and it's just coincidence that racists love and support both symbols wholeheartedly, but they're uniformly disingenuous.  A person wearing a swastika is well within his rights to wear that hindu symbol.  He's also going to catch a lot of shit when he does something remotely racist.  That's completely understandable.  It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #184 on: January 24, 2019, 02:39:12 PM »
@Kris

It's pretty sad that a lifelong Democrat (me) had to get the real story from The National Review. Believe me, that was the last place I looked for it. 

Were you going to apologize then, or no?

Um, to whom? To you? And for what?

Your comments on this forum matter because many thousands of people read it.  So: Are you going to apologize to members of this forum (and guests) for your misleading comments about the Covington teenagers?  You were smearing teens with a story that was false.  You were not advancing the truth.  Your comments were painting dweeby teenagers as racist monsters.  Are you going to apologize for THAT? 

Remember: On page 3, you castigated the 16 year old boy for not apologizing, by suggesting that his refusal to apologize was somehow evidence of nefarious intent.  But now, you've also made a mistake, and you're unwilling to apologize to this forum.  Do you not find this hypocritical? 

Here is your quote again:
Quote
If your actual intentions are good, then apologizing ought to be easy. As should be a willingness to accept that your intentions didn't match the actual outcome.

If your reaction is instead defensiveness -- which is a reaction that pulls the attention back on YOU rather than the person you've harmed... well, then yeah, it kind of calls into question your intention in the first place.



@MoMMMy :

The very first thing you said to me – the very first thing that you have said to me ever, I believe – was Reply #171:

@Kris , for the Covington story, you do not have command of the facts, and as a result you’ve participated in and advanced the smearing of high school kids. 

Here’s my suggestion: Watch the longform video with an open mind and decide for yourself.  Here's the most complete version I could find.  I'm serious,  if you actually care about truth -- and I've always thought you did -- then watch the video. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igFBDp8wCEU

You'll see your mistake.  After you confirm that mistake, then by your own standards, outlined on page 3, you should apologize: 

[quoting me]

If you really, really don’t want to apologize, and abide by your own standards, then do what the NY Times did, and instead, just talk about how a “Fuller Picture is Emerging” of the story, which is maybe the shittiest non-apology I’ve seen from a reputable media outlet."



As I told you in my reply, I had watched that video. Twice. In fact, everything I have written about the situation beyond posting the link to the shorter video in Reply 105, I have written AFTER having watched the 1h45m video.

And by the way, I had already said that before you ever addressed me. In Reply #128. More than 40 replies before your first time addressing me. I am including the reply number so you can see it, and read it. In that reply, I comment at length on the video you said that I had not yet watched.

So, no. I’m not apologizing.

You, on the other hand, accused me of something that was not true. And which was demonstrably false. And of which there is a record in this very thread. And you insulted me in the bargain. Perhaps you should be the one apologizing to me.



« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 02:41:22 PM by Kris »

Poundwise

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #185 on: January 24, 2019, 03:19:16 PM »
Why isn't Nathan Phillips getting more $hit for straight up lying about what happened? 

[....]

CNN: What really happened?

Phillips: They were there looking for trouble, looking for something. Everybody knows the right to life and (pro-choice), it’s been like this and they’re hateful to each other. And it’s because I’m a veteran — I’m a Vietnam veteran — that these two groups even have the right in this country to have protests, to have conflicting opinions. If they were doing that, they should’ve done that there and then when they come into public, that wasn’t the place for that. That was a public forum where we was at. We were still under the protection of our permit for the indigenous peoples rally. (Emphasis added.)

If you watch the available video, the first transcript entry is wrong. He says the more ambiguous “Vietnam-times.” I can’t find video of his second statement (CNN apparently aired only excerpts of the larger interview), but why emphasize Vietnam when you didn’t serve there? This is deceptive at best and an outright lie at worst.

Going through your post.

Quick point. Phillips brings up "Vietnam-times" because it was a very divided time. Completely relevant. He's trying to say that he lived through those times (as a Marine reservist) and thus surely experienced conflict based on the uniform he wore for four years.

Throughout his media history, he almost always has been careful to say "Vietnam-times" or "Vietnam-era" when referring to his veteran status. Lazy journalists usually abbreviate this to Vietnam Vet. I think there is one time where he slipped up and calls himself a Vietnam vet. Go ahead, hang him.

Poundwise

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #186 on: January 24, 2019, 04:54:33 PM »
More on the National Review's take that Phillips's account is a lie.

Having seen several videos, including the 1 hour 46 minute one, which is mainly notable for how long and loud the Black Israelite guy could rant and how many fights he could pick with how many kinds of people in a short time, I think that there was probably a misunderstanding on Phillips's part.

He probably didn't see the hour preceding the events (you can hear the drums in the distance), so he must have first become aware of a mass of a hundred young men shouting and laughing and jumping around. It may have been irking to find that the noise was taking attention away from the rally. Then he saw the youths start to all squat as if they were planning mischief (probably just a big synchronized jump but he didn't know that).   So he marched up to them, crooning and banging his drum. Why not use words?  I guess that was not his way, and anyway there was so much shouting going on.

How was the behavior of the Covington youths? I'm not sure if the young men were collected at that spot and doing their chants there because they had to wait for their bus exactly there and were bored, or because it was amusing to tweak the all too excitable Black Hebrew guys. It seemed like the kid who took off his shirt was taunting them.  Sandmann isn't doing anything worse than standing purposefully in Phillips's way and smirking a little... disrespectful, but disrespect and smirking is what teen boys do. The crowd of youths surrounds the Native Americans.  The only voice I could make out with clarity during the Phillips/Sandmann encounter is the angry Native American telling the kids to "go back to Europe" (not good) though in response to what I don't know. 
It looks to me as if Phillips is trying to talk to Sandmann with his drum; Sandmann eventually stops smirking and moves away for Phillips to continue his walk.

 It's hard to hear their individual voices in the videos... probably most were just chanting their school songs, maybe some were saying hateful things, which would not be surprising in a group of teens. Did they say "Build that wall?"  Not implausible given their politics, although it would have been a stupid thing to say to Native Americans, but the videos don't support it... nor do they rule it out.   
 
Lest we let them all off the hook, though, the recorded behavior of at least one young man in the crowd present was very offensive.
https://twitter.com/girlsreallyrule/status/1087835791269814272
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 04:56:50 PM by Poundwise »

Poundwise

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #187 on: January 24, 2019, 05:33:52 PM »
They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

@Midwest My understanding was that they were on the location for a scheduled Native American rally, and that the March for Life was elsewhere. The Native Americans probably didn't understand that they were waiting for a bus; just saw a mob of MAGA hatted youths hanging around for an hour for no apparent reason.

** my current analysis is that some of the kids were disrespectful and mocking, some were bored and a little hopped up on being in a group outside of school, and nobody knew why they were hanging around so long. That many young men in MAGA hats may have been scary to nonwhite people  (if you are white and don't understand, suppose it had been 200 black youths in hoodies milling around and surrounding you.)

OtherJen

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #188 on: January 24, 2019, 08:57:49 PM »
They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

@Midwest My understanding was that they were on the location for a scheduled Native American rally, and that the March for Life was elsewhere. The Native Americans probably didn't understand that they were waiting for a bus; just saw a mob of MAGA hatted youths hanging around for an hour for no apparent reason.

** my current analysis is that some of the kids were disrespectful and mocking, some were bored and a little hopped up on being in a group outside of school, and nobody knew why they were hanging around so long. That many young men in MAGA hats may have been scary to nonwhite people  (if you are white and don't understand, suppose it had been 200 black youths in hoodies milling around and surrounding you.)

As a Mexican-American woman (born here to native-born parents), I can confirm that I would be far more afraid of a group of young white men wearing MAGA hats and shouting than I would be of the indigenous groups.

marty998

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #189 on: January 24, 2019, 09:18:12 PM »
Meanwhile your Government is still closed.

Are you all distracted enough by this debacle? Amazing how such an insignificant protest rally comprising a disparate trio of non-intersecting issues has been enough to distract everyone to forget about other more important issues...

OtherJen

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #190 on: January 24, 2019, 10:16:56 PM »
Meanwhile your Government is still closed.

Are you all distracted enough by this debacle? Amazing how such an insignificant protest rally comprising a disparate trio of non-intersecting issues has been enough to distract everyone to forget about other more important issues...

Generally, adults of average or higher intelligence are able to focus on multiple issues at once.

 I agree that this particular issue has been blown out of proportion, but I suspect it has to do with the sense of powerlessness many of us currently feel. I have voted in every election since I was legally able to do so and have worked for years in an organization that promotes voter education and access, but I feel powerless over the fact that grocery chains are posting fliers to inform people that the early SNAP benefits are in fact intended for February and are not extra, and that there may not be any money for March because the giant orange toddler defiling the Oval Office refuses to stop throwing a tantrum over a wall. I feel powerless over the fact that I can't do a goddamned thing about the fact that some government employees are being forced to work without pay under penalty of law. My government and its ability to function are being held hostage by a failed businessman elected by less than half the voting population and an asshole from a fairly small state who currently has outsized and unchecked power in the Senate. There's not a thing I can personally do about that.

Regarding the various groups of idiots at various DC marches last weekend, I have no interest in stirring the pot. I don't know what happened; I wasn't there. I only commented regarding my sense of safety (or lack thereof) as a member of one of the most reviled ethnic minorities (keep in mind that a US-born Mexican-American veteran in my home state was recently slated for deportation based solely on his skin color and name). I suspect that much of the outrage stems from a sense of agency. We can't do a goddamned thing about Trump or McConnell until 2020; however, we can protest racial issues.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #191 on: January 25, 2019, 07:01:06 AM »
No matter where you stand on the issue, you have to admit Trump has done a great job uniting the country.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #192 on: January 25, 2019, 07:02:29 AM »
They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

@Midwest My understanding was that they were on the location for a scheduled Native American rally, and that the March for Life was elsewhere. The Native Americans probably didn't understand that they were waiting for a bus; just saw a mob of MAGA hatted youths hanging around for an hour for no apparent reason.

** my current analysis is that some of the kids were disrespectful and mocking, some were bored and a little hopped up on being in a group outside of school, and nobody knew why they were hanging around so long. That many young men in MAGA hats may have been scary to nonwhite people  (if you are white and don't understand, suppose it had been 200 black youths in hoodies milling around and surrounding you.)

I don't doubt that analysis.  I'm not sure, however, that the kids intentionally intimidated the Native American Group.  Walking into a group for whatever purpose, wasn't the best decision.  I think there was some bad decision making on both sides and some misunderstanding.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #193 on: January 25, 2019, 07:18:43 AM »



We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

If a student said the things in bold, you are correct they should be punished by the school or their parents.  Completely agree.  The kid at the center of this, is there any proof he said those kind of thing?  If not, then why should he apologize and why has he been vilified and singled out?

20, 30 40 kids without parents, with their buddies and then being yelled at by the Black Hebrews, I have little doubt somebody said something they shouldn't.  Some of them might have done it without the Black Hebrews interaction, but the furor over this is insane.

There is no if - the bolded was said on video by someone at the front of the group. The kid at the centre of this didn't seem to say anything. But based on the video of him laughing and carrying on, he sure enjoyed it. This was before his "stand-off" with Phillips. He has been singled out because of the first tweet that included a pic of him and his shit-eating grin. That grin showed he knew he was being an arshole but he was doing it anyways and there was nothing anyone could do about it. I don't think it's fair that he is the face of this issue, to be honest, but he's not some angelic student saying a private prayer. We know that much is 100% bullshit.

Since it's hard to say who started what, I'd give the group of them detention for a week or something and make them do a project on not being an arshole in situations like that. If they don't get at least that amount of punishment, they will know they can do this again. Oh, except the guy who said the rape comment - he should get way worse punishment. When I went to catholic school it would have been the strap across his ass - whatever the 2019 version of that is, I suppose. I'd also levy harsher punishments against anyone caught on camera doing the tomahawk and the guy who took his jacket and shirts off to rile up the crowd.

To anyone saying: "yea I did stupid stuff like that as a kid" remember that if you got caught you would have been in major shit.

The kid in the center is on a school trip.  He's having a good time.  Some of his friends/associates may have said some things they shouldn't.  He may or may not have heard them.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no video of him doing saying those things.  He stands calmly there while some guy marches into his group and beats a drum in his face.  He's probably wonder WTF the guy is doing especially with the shitshow that has preceded that (Black Hebrews, shirtless dancing boy).  You want him punished because you don't like the look on his face in this confusing situation?  Its a confusing situation all around which then went viral without the facts.

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #194 on: January 25, 2019, 07:38:38 AM »
No matter where you stand on the issue, you have to admit Trump has done a great job uniting the country.

He sure has made racism and sexism perfectly acceptable:

When evidence then emerges that the kids, actually did nothing wrong..

Poundwise

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #195 on: January 25, 2019, 07:59:09 AM »
They weren't at a Native American rally.  They were standing in a public place and a Native American marched up to them carrying a drum.

@Midwest My understanding was that they were on the location for a scheduled Native American rally, and that the March for Life was elsewhere. The Native Americans probably didn't understand that they were waiting for a bus; just saw a mob of MAGA hatted youths hanging around for an hour for no apparent reason.

** my current analysis is that some of the kids were disrespectful and mocking, some were bored and a little hopped up on being in a group outside of school, and nobody knew why they were hanging around so long. That many young men in MAGA hats may have been scary to nonwhite people  (if you are white and don't understand, suppose it had been 200 black youths in hoodies milling around and surrounding you.)

I don't doubt that analysis.  I'm not sure, however, that the kids intentionally intimidated the Native American Group.  Walking into a group for whatever purpose, wasn't the best decision.  I think there was some bad decision making on both sides and some misunderstanding.

I don't think the kids intentionally intimidated the Native Americans.  I think they were just in a rowdy mood and thought that the Native Americans were some sort of street theater, whereas Phillips and his group were dead serious, thinking that here was a gang of roughs ready to pounce on the Black Israelites.  I do think that Sandmann was a little obnoxious... In the same situation, if a procession started to weave its way through my group, I'd move aside for it, just like many of the boys did. On the other hand, maybe he thought he'd been picked for some sort of performance art.  I doubt he was praying; that explanation makes me think less of him.  Also, I thought that some of the dances and war-whoop like sounds the boys were making (though not clear in the videos) were disrespectful. I'm not sure what the role of an elder is to Native Americans, but would this be like a bishop's procession walking into a group of youths and having them sarcastically crossing themselves and emotionally singing Ave Maria?

talltexan

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #196 on: January 25, 2019, 08:02:27 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.


Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #197 on: January 25, 2019, 08:07:45 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #198 on: January 25, 2019, 08:09:42 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that? 

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #199 on: January 25, 2019, 08:26:59 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.