Author Topic: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?  (Read 20598 times)

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2018, 12:49:51 PM »
Yep you'll save money. Of course businesses will be free to discriminate at will. They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change. Of course no one benefits from that. That's fine if that's what you want and what you stand for. But just don't claim you are socially liberal as well.

Because of course if someone believes the government should stay out of one issue they should stay out of every issue, right?  Thanks for the straw man.

So the government should step in and regulate pollution and toxins? Because according to you rolling back these regulations is positive.

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I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.

I assume Chris22 meant only some business and envionmental regulations.

Chris is certainly free to correct him/herself if that is what they meant.

One could claim that regulation rollback is certainly positive for business. It's likely more financially beneficial for a business to dump toxins in the local lake than to dispose of them responsibly. But it's certainly not beneficial for the people who rely on that lake for drinking water. I could same the same for emissions etc. So depending on how you view it, yeah you could claim it's beneficial. Heck I could get to the grocery store a lot faster if I drove 150 mph. Probably not worth putting myself and other's lives in danger ( :

davisgang90

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2018, 05:11:25 PM »
Reductio ad absurdam, the sign of a master debater.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2018, 05:34:57 PM »
Well, so far Trump has been pretty good for things that have a decent chance of affecting me.

1) The change in the tax code in regards to itemizing vs the standard deduction benefits me.
2) I live in steel country, so those 25% tariffs are certainly helping the local economy as the new 3-year contracts get negotiated.
3) I'm in favor of switching to a single-payer type system, and the ACA limping would sap support for a real change. 

I care a lot more about those things than whether the president was getting campaign dirt from Russia or doing inappropriate things with interns in the oval office.

steveo

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2018, 05:55:50 PM »
2) I live in steel country, so those 25% tariffs are certainly helping the local economy as the new 3-year contracts get negotiated.

Tariffs are one of the worst things you can do for an economy. It's basically taking money away from everyone else and giving it to people like yourself who get protection via tariffs. They make everything cost more for everyone to benefit a select few. The select few are also the ones who are inefficient. You basically state that guy can't do his job so let's make every pay for him to have a job and make every else less efficient.

You'd be better off simply paying out everyone like yourself who wants their own little kickback because that way you also aren't distorting every other business/consumer in the economy.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 08:02:07 PM by steveo »

nick663

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2018, 09:30:34 PM »
^It's even worse when you realize that is a tariff on raw materials which are marked up numerous times before reaching the end customer.  I would bet that GM will be laying off more workers than the US steel industry adds thanks to the tariffs and that's just 1 company.

3) I'm in favor of switching to a single-payer type system, and the ACA limping would sap support for a real change. 
So you want to take 2 steps backwards to move forwards?  That's a rather odd strategy.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2018, 07:41:39 AM »
Predictably, just as on the other thread, most Trump voters who respond here are doubling down.

I just read this this morning. I will delete this if the OP wants me to, but it seems pretty relevant since we’re not getting people here saying they’ve jumped off the train but instead that they are happy with stuff he is doing.

https://newrepublic.com/article/152638/escape-trump-cult

scottish

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2018, 07:52:14 AM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

bacchi

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2018, 12:23:04 PM »
https://newrepublic.com/article/152638/escape-trump-cult

That's some scary shit. :O

Quote
that 52 percent of [Republicans] would hypothetically support postponing the 2020 election if he proposed it.


BDWW

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2018, 01:20:21 PM »
I didn't vote for trump last election, but probably will in the next. Primarily because of the current insanity of the left/media.

Do you have any particular media outlets that you believe have gone insane? Or do you believe all of the mainstream media is being unreasonable?

Also relevant, how do you feel about what's come out of the Mueller investigation up to this point?

Predictably, just as on the other thread, most Trump voters who respond here are doubling down.

I just read this this morning. I will delete this if the OP wants me to, but it seems pretty relevant since we’re not getting people here saying they’ve jumped off the train but instead that they are happy with stuff he is doing.

https://newrepublic.com/article/152638/escape-trump-cult

Don't really have much interest in a protracted debate on a forum, but I figured it was only a matter of time ...

fdhs_runner

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2018, 02:54:07 PM »
I think when a lot of right-leaning people say they're socially liberal they mean they're socially libertarian.

It doesn't cost much money to have the government not meddle in abortion, allow gay rights/marriage, legalize pot, etc etc.  Some of those SAVE big money (what could we save if drugs were decriminalized and we could spend a ton less on enforcement????)

There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

Yep you'll save money. Of course businesses will be free to discriminate at will. They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change. Of course no one benefits from that. That's fine if that's what you want and what you stand for. But just don't claim you are socially liberal as well.

Because of course if someone believes the government should stay out of one issue they should stay out of every issue, right?  Thanks for the straw man.

You beat me to it. I was wondering what Roe vs Wade, equal rights, and removing marijuana from schedule 1 or the CSA altogether have to do with dumping toxins in waterways? I suppose I could connect some dots from the War on Drugs -> increase in difficulty of importation -> incentive to make synthetic drugs like meth in the US -> more meth labs -> pollution ... but that means the War on Drugs is causing the pollution not the people in favor of legal marijuana.

I voted 3rd party the last two Presidential elections. I was told that by doing so in a solidly blue state I was somehow helping Trump. IMHO Trump was mostly helped by the fact that Hillary got less total votes in 2016 than President Obama got in 2012. He in turn got less votes in 2012 than he got in 2008. I can't imagine Debbie Wassermann Schultz's fiasco helped.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 02:58:01 PM by fdhs_runner »

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2018, 04:13:32 PM »
I think when a lot of right-leaning people say they're socially liberal they mean they're socially libertarian.

It doesn't cost much money to have the government not meddle in abortion, allow gay rights/marriage, legalize pot, etc etc.  Some of those SAVE big money (what could we save if drugs were decriminalized and we could spend a ton less on enforcement????)

There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

Yep you'll save money. Of course businesses will be free to discriminate at will. They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change. Of course no one benefits from that. That's fine if that's what you want and what you stand for. But just don't claim you are socially liberal as well.

Because of course if someone believes the government should stay out of one issue they should stay out of every issue, right?  Thanks for the straw man.

You beat me to it. I was wondering what Roe vs Wade, equal rights, and removing marijuana from schedule 1 or the CSA altogether have to do with dumping toxins in waterways? I suppose I could connect some dots from the War on Drugs -> increase in difficulty of importation -> incentive to make synthetic drugs like meth in the US -> more meth labs -> pollution ... but that means the War on Drugs is causing the pollution not the people in favor of legal marijuana.

I voted 3rd party the last two Presidential elections. I was told that by doing so in a solidly blue state I was somehow helping Trump. IMHO Trump was mostly helped by the fact that Hillary got less total votes in 2016 than President Obama got in 2012. He in turn got less votes in 2012 than he got in 2008. I can't imagine Debbie Wassermann Schultz's fiasco helped.

Yeah it's tough to understand when you cut off the rest of what Chris stated. Thus likely the confusion on your part.
I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.


fdhs_runner

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2018, 04:37:59 PM »
I quoted Post #46?

golden1

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2018, 04:54:10 PM »
I wish people on the left would stop asking this question.  Imagine if someone asked “Are you ready to admit Obama was a terrible president?”  It just makes people dig their heels in and if anything, act more tribal.

People should study watergate more.  Most people who supported Nixon supported him through watergate and only abandoned him at the bitter end, when it was clearly obvious that he was guilty.  Even once he resigned, a lot of people felt he was innocent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/05/15/how-america-viewed-the-watergate-scandal-as-it-was-unfolding/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.08a5eaf28762



MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2018, 05:00:17 PM »
I quoted Post #46?

Yep, you missed post 42 and this:

"There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free."

Thus why I made sure to bold the word "free" in my response ( :

« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 05:34:27 PM by MasterStache »

fdhs_runner

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2018, 05:45:41 PM »
I quoted Post #46?

Yep, you missed post 42 and this:

"There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free."

Thus why I made sure to bold the word "free" in my response ( :

Post #42 wasn't included in the series of quotes making up what I quoted. I hit quote on #46.

"There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.", however was part of #46.

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2018, 06:03:19 PM »
I quoted Post #46?

Yep, you missed post 42 and this:

"There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free."

Thus why I made sure to bold the word "free" in my response ( :

Post #42 wasn't included in the series of quotes making up what I quoted. I hit quote on #46.

"There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.", however was part of #46.

Good, looks like progress ( :

Do you understand now why I commented about freedom to discriminate and freedom to dump toxins?

fdhs_runner

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2018, 06:27:09 PM »
No, not really.

abner

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2018, 07:08:48 PM »
Still happily riding along...

HBFIRE

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2018, 09:54:08 PM »

marty998

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2018, 11:30:26 PM »
Still happily riding along...

Incumbent on you to perhaps say why...?

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2018, 06:24:42 AM »
No, not really.

Hmm, at the risk that I'm just being trolled now...

I don't think that's what Trump is, necessarily.  I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.
There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

Me: "They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change"

The answer to your question is I didn't link gay marriage or pot to dumping toxins. It was a response to "freedom" from the government in the aspect of "rolling back regulations." There are many articles written about deregulation and it's link to "freedom" for more Americans.

The two issues aren't entirely separate in the aspect of the government limiting it's own power. As Chris stated, there are  a lot of people that want that. I briefly pointed out the downside and how it tends to not result on good things from a socially liberal standpoint (since that is how this all came about).

« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 06:27:46 AM by MasterStache »

fdhs_runner

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2018, 06:40:04 AM »
So we're talking about https://www.bna.com/26-environmental-rules-n73014477330/

Not freedom from, for example, some Jim Crow laws that are still hanging around (https://www.wbur.org/npr/145175694/legal-scholar-jim-crow-still-exists-in-america).

Chris22

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2018, 01:26:44 PM »
No, not really.

Hmm, at the risk that I'm just being trolled now...

I don't think that's what Trump is, necessarily.  I do think he has done a lot to roll back regulations on business in a positive way.
There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free.

Me: "They will be free to dump more toxins in our waterways and release more CO2 into the atmosphere exacerbating climate change"

The answer to your question is I didn't link gay marriage or pot to dumping toxins. It was a response to "freedom" from the government in the aspect of "rolling back regulations." There are many articles written about deregulation and it's link to "freedom" for more Americans.

The two issues aren't entirely separate in the aspect of the government limiting it's own power. As Chris stated, there are  a lot of people that want that. I briefly pointed out the downside and how it tends to not result on good things from a socially liberal standpoint (since that is how this all came about).

I was away all weekend with my family and generally off the internet so I missed this shitstorm.

My comment "There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free" alluded to the idea that socially liberal ideas cost money and were therefore at odds with fiscal responsibility; being for, or agnostic towards, gay marriage costs nothing, and therefore shouldn't be at odds with fiscal responsibility; in fact it should be a money saver due to not having to fight in court about it. 

On environmental regulations, I'm all for sensible environmental regulations.  However, sensible is the key.  If it costs $1M to get to 99.9% clean, and $10B to get to 99.99% clean, we really need to ask ourselves if that last .09% is worth it.  Maybe it is.  Maybe it isn't. 

That said, I do believe the whole little side conversation there was a big strawman. 

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2018, 03:24:26 PM »
My comment "There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free" alluded to the idea that socially liberal ideas cost money and were therefore at odds with fiscal responsibility
I appreciate you clearing that up.

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being for, or agnostic towards, gay marriage costs nothing, and therefore shouldn't be at odds with fiscal responsibility; in fact it should be a money saver due to not having to fight in court about it.

I am a little confused by this.  The latest ruling by the Supreme Court ruled that same sex marriage, being protected by the 14th amendment, is now legal in all 50 states. This is in contrast to allowing states to decide for themselves. Going with the ideal that the government should remove itself from the gay marriage debate would put the decision back into the hands of the states, ignoring the 14th amendment, thereby not Constitutionally protecting same sex marriage.  This of course would lead to some states banning same sex marriage. I suppose it would save the government money . It would cost the states with same sex marriage bans some undetermined amount of revenue as weddings are often good for local business. But overall, it would seem odd to not step in when perceived Constitutional rights are being violated, just to save some cash. 

Quote
On environmental regulations, I'm all for sensible environmental regulations.  However, sensible is the key.  If it costs $1M to get to 99.9% clean, and $10B to get to 99.99% clean, we really need to ask ourselves if that last .09% is worth it.  Maybe it is.  Maybe it isn't.

Couldn't agree more. But to be fair, that isn't what you stated. I absolutely agree that there are some unnecessary regulations and that rolling back regulations (unnecessary and necessary) will certainly save the business money. But I think it really needs to be considered against short and long term impacts. I am sure the environmental regulation discussion could take up many pages on another thread which I neither have the time or inclination to partake in. 

HBFIRE

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2018, 03:38:24 PM »

That said, I do believe the whole little side conversation there was a big strawman.

I'm with you, it was absolutely a strawman.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2018, 05:00:01 PM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

former player

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2018, 06:12:24 AM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

I think that's a more sophisticated analysis than is necessary for most voters, although it sounds about right for Washington Republicans.  Much more likely that many voters just fell for the Trump/Russia propaganda about "crooked Hillary" and for the Republican/Trump/Russia voter suppression tactics.

Blueberries

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2018, 08:33:54 AM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

I disagree with this assessment.  From my vantage point, most politicians are sleazy; it's just a game of who can gain more power and money legally.  As I see it, there were rape allegations during his presidency, his misconduct in office, Whitewater, people's fears over her e-mails (despite being cleared; it doesn't look good), the DNC & Clinton in bed together to oust Sanders (again, complex issue, but it doesn't look good), Clinton Foundation issues, etc.  I would bet I'm missing a few scandals in there. 

I don't like her, but I still voted for her.  It's fair to be asked why I could overlook these issues (her husband's issues are his own) and vote for her anyway.   

Chris22

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #78 on: December 18, 2018, 10:41:19 AM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

I disagree with this assessment.  From my vantage point, most politicians are sleazy; it's just a game of who can gain more power and money legally.  As I see it, there were rape allegations during his presidency, his misconduct in office, Whitewater, people's fears over her e-mails (despite being cleared; it doesn't look good), the DNC & Clinton in bed together to oust Sanders (again, complex issue, but it doesn't look good), Clinton Foundation issues, etc.  I would bet I'm missing a few scandals in there. 

I don't like her, but I still voted for her.  It's fair to be asked why I could overlook these issues (her husband's issues are his own) and vote for her anyway.


In this #MeToo era, Hillary A) stood by someone who AT MINIMUM used his powers to gain sexual favors, and B) took part in smearing the names of his alleged victims. 

Compare that to Trump, who everyone loves to say bragged about "Grabbing them by the..." but in reality, he didn't say he grabbed anyone in particular, nor has he ever, to my knowledge, actually been accused of it.  It was a vulgar and scummy thing to say, but as far as I can tell isn't actually backed up by any real action (okay he had a consensual affair with a Stormy, not illegal) he took. 

So basically, you have someone who bragged about something (in abstract, not even with a specific person) he DIDN'T do, and you have someone else who help enable someone to do actual things that they denied doing.  But the first one is the rapist/sexual assaulter????   

To bring it full circle, the lack of critical thinking by reporters around that has always bugged me about the media.  "Trump said he did something bad that we can't prove he did!  He's horrific!!"  "Clinton was not convicted in his impeachment, nothing to see here!!"

Dabnasty

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #79 on: December 18, 2018, 11:04:10 AM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

I disagree with this assessment.  From my vantage point, most politicians are sleazy; it's just a game of who can gain more power and money legally.  As I see it, there were rape allegations during his presidency, his misconduct in office, Whitewater, people's fears over her e-mails (despite being cleared; it doesn't look good), the DNC & Clinton in bed together to oust Sanders (again, complex issue, but it doesn't look good), Clinton Foundation issues, etc.  I would bet I'm missing a few scandals in there. 

I don't like her, but I still voted for her.  It's fair to be asked why I could overlook these issues (her husband's issues are his own) and vote for her anyway.


In this #MeToo era, Hillary A) stood by someone who AT MINIMUM used his powers to gain sexual favors, and B) took part in smearing the names of his alleged victims. 

Compare that to Trump, who everyone loves to say bragged about "Grabbing them by the..." but in reality, he didn't say he grabbed anyone in particular, nor has he ever, to my knowledge, actually been accused of it.  It was a vulgar and scummy thing to say, but as far as I can tell isn't actually backed up by any real action (okay he had a consensual affair with a Stormy, not illegal) he took. 

So basically, you have someone who bragged about something (in abstract, not even with a specific person) he DIDN'T do, and you have someone else who help enable someone to do actual things that they denied doing.  But the first one is the rapist/sexual assaulter????   

To bring it full circle, the lack of critical thinking by reporters around that has always bugged me about the media.  "Trump said he did something bad that we can't prove he did!  He's horrific!!"  "Clinton was not convicted in his impeachment, nothing to see here!!"

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-accused-trump-sexual-misconduct-list-2017-12#kristin-anderson-3

Several of these 22 accusers claimed that he did in fact reach up their skirts without warning and they made these claims well before 2016. To say he DIDN'T do it is giving him an awful lot of the benefit of doubt.

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #80 on: December 18, 2018, 11:30:22 AM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

I disagree with this assessment.  From my vantage point, most politicians are sleazy; it's just a game of who can gain more power and money legally.  As I see it, there were rape allegations during his presidency, his misconduct in office, Whitewater, people's fears over her e-mails (despite being cleared; it doesn't look good), the DNC & Clinton in bed together to oust Sanders (again, complex issue, but it doesn't look good), Clinton Foundation issues, etc.  I would bet I'm missing a few scandals in there. 

I don't like her, but I still voted for her.  It's fair to be asked why I could overlook these issues (her husband's issues are his own) and vote for her anyway.


In this #MeToo era, Hillary A) stood by someone who AT MINIMUM used his powers to gain sexual favors, and B) took part in smearing the names of his alleged victims. 

Compare that to Trump, who everyone loves to say bragged about "Grabbing them by the..." but in reality, he didn't say he grabbed anyone in particular, nor has he ever, to my knowledge, actually been accused of it.  It was a vulgar and scummy thing to say, but as far as I can tell isn't actually backed up by any real action (okay he had a consensual affair with a Stormy, not illegal) he took. 

So basically, you have someone who bragged about something (in abstract, not even with a specific person) he DIDN'T do, and you have someone else who help enable someone to do actual things that they denied doing.  But the first one is the rapist/sexual assaulter????   

To bring it full circle, the lack of critical thinking by reporters around that has always bugged me about the media.  "Trump said he did something bad that we can't prove he did!  He's horrific!!"  "Clinton was not convicted in his impeachment, nothing to see here!!"

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-accused-trump-sexual-misconduct-list-2017-12#kristin-anderson-3

Several of these 22 accusers claimed that he did in fact reach up their skirts without warning and they made these claims well before 2016. To say he DIDN'T do it is giving him an awful lot of the benefit of doubt.

Yeah that's some hardcore confirmation bias wrapped up in whole shit load of whataboutism.

I always find it interesting that someone who makes sexually explicit comments towards women, including his own daughter, brags about walking in on naked/topless underage girls and has cheated on every spouse, somehow is suddenly lying about sexually assaulting women.

GuitarStv

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #81 on: December 18, 2018, 11:46:06 AM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

I disagree with this assessment.  From my vantage point, most politicians are sleazy; it's just a game of who can gain more power and money legally.  As I see it, there were rape allegations during his presidency, his misconduct in office, Whitewater, people's fears over her e-mails (despite being cleared; it doesn't look good), the DNC & Clinton in bed together to oust Sanders (again, complex issue, but it doesn't look good), Clinton Foundation issues, etc.  I would bet I'm missing a few scandals in there. 

I don't like her, but I still voted for her.  It's fair to be asked why I could overlook these issues (her husband's issues are his own) and vote for her anyway.


In this #MeToo era, Hillary A) stood by someone who AT MINIMUM used his powers to gain sexual favors, and B) took part in smearing the names of his alleged victims. 

Compare that to Trump, who everyone loves to say bragged about "Grabbing them by the..." but in reality, he didn't say he grabbed anyone in particular, nor has he ever, to my knowledge, actually been accused of it.  It was a vulgar and scummy thing to say, but as far as I can tell isn't actually backed up by any real action (okay he had a consensual affair with a Stormy, not illegal) he took. 

That's a perfectly valid criticism of the Clintons.  They both share blame and were involved in using power to obtain sex.

However, I'm surprised that you are ignorant regarding the many accusations of sexual misconduct against Trump.  Quotes regarding unwanted sexual contact / harassment with Trump:


“He was like an octopus … His hands were everywhere.” - Jessica Leeds

"I referred to this as a ‘rape’, but I do not want my words to be interpreted in a literal or criminal sense." - Ivana Trump

“He pushed me up against the wall, and had his hands all over me and tried to get up my dress again.” - Jill Harth

"He did touch my vagina through my underwear." - Kristen Anderson

“[Trump] stuck his head right underneath their skirts.” - Lisa Boyne

“He took my hand, and grabbed me, and went for the lips.” - Cathy Heller

“He kissed me directly on the lips." - Temple Taggart

"I remember putting on my dress really quick because I was like, 'Oh my God, there’s a man in here.'" - Mariah Billado

"Then his hand touched the right side of my breast. I was in shock." - Karena Virginia

“The time that he walked through the dressing rooms was really shocking. We were all naked.” - Bridget Sullivan

"Our first introduction to him was when we were at the dress rehearsal and half-naked changing into our bikinis.” - Tasha Dixon

“All of a sudden I felt a grab, a little nudge." - Melinda McGillivray

"I was thinking ‘Oh, he’s going to hug me’, but when he pulled my face in and gave me a smooch. I was like ‘Oh – kay.’" - Jennifer Murphy

“[Trump] kissed me directly on the mouth.” - Rachel Crooks

"I turned around, and within seconds he was pushing me against the wall and forcing his tongue down my throat." - Natasha Stoynoff

“Trump stood right next to me and suddenly he squeezed my butt." - Ninni Laaksonen

"When we entered the room he grabbed each of us tightly in a hug and kissed each of us on the lips without asking for permission." - Jessica Drake

"He would step in front of each girl and look you over from head to toe like we were just meat, we were just sexual objects, that we were not people." - Samantha Holvey

“He then grabbed my shoulder and began kissing me again very aggressively and placed his hand on my breast." - Summer Zervos

“He probably doesn’t want me telling the story about that time he continually grabbed my ass and invited me to his hotel room.” - Cassandra Searles

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/nov/30/donald-trump-sexual-misconduct-allegations-full-list


I don't know the details of every encounter.  It certainly appears that there's a pattern of sexual harassment (at a minimum) though.



So basically, you have someone who bragged about something (in abstract, not even with a specific person) he DIDN'T do, and you have someone else who help enable someone to do actual things that they denied doing.  But the first one is the rapist/sexual assaulter????   

To bring it full circle, the lack of critical thinking by reporters around that has always bugged me about the media.  "Trump said he did something bad that we can't prove he did!  He's horrific!!"  "Clinton was not convicted in his impeachment, nothing to see here!!"

There is a good reason that Trump's off hand comments about being perfectly OK with sexual harassment were a big deal . . . it's at least partly because of his personal history of sexually harassing women in an offhand manner.

It's valid to be disgusted with the Clintons on the sex/power front.  I don't think it's valid to see Trump as being better in this regard though.

Blueberries

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2018, 12:45:15 PM »
Speaking of Hillary, and the Clintons in general, I've wondered why everyone accuses them of being corrupt.

I understand they claimed to be bankrupt around the turn of the century and now have an 8 or 9 figure net worth.   Is this large increase in net worth the evidence of corruption?

Republicans don't like the Clintons because they did a lot of things that were considered very liberal at the time (although the Bernie Bros now call them uber-conservatives) and pretty much all their decisions led to tremendous success for the country. It showed that a lot of dopey Republican ideas like flat taxes, killing social security and Medicare, ending the social safety net for the poor, starting pointless wars in the Middle East etc. weren't in the best interest of the country. They have never forgiven the Clintons for that.

I disagree with this assessment.  From my vantage point, most politicians are sleazy; it's just a game of who can gain more power and money legally.  As I see it, there were rape allegations during his presidency, his misconduct in office, Whitewater, people's fears over her e-mails (despite being cleared; it doesn't look good), the DNC & Clinton in bed together to oust Sanders (again, complex issue, but it doesn't look good), Clinton Foundation issues, etc.  I would bet I'm missing a few scandals in there. 

I don't like her, but I still voted for her.  It's fair to be asked why I could overlook these issues (her husband's issues are his own) and vote for her anyway.


In this #MeToo era, Hillary A) stood by someone who AT MINIMUM used his powers to gain sexual favors, and B) took part in smearing the names of his alleged victims. 

Compare that to Trump, who everyone loves to say bragged about "Grabbing them by the..." but in reality, he didn't say he grabbed anyone in particular, nor has he ever, to my knowledge, actually been accused of it.  It was a vulgar and scummy thing to say, but as far as I can tell isn't actually backed up by any real action (okay he had a consensual affair with a Stormy, not illegal) he took. 

So basically, you have someone who bragged about something (in abstract, not even with a specific person) he DIDN'T do, and you have someone else who help enable someone to do actual things that they denied doing.  But the first one is the rapist/sexual assaulter????   

To bring it full circle, the lack of critical thinking by reporters around that has always bugged me about the media.  "Trump said he did something bad that we can't prove he did!  He's horrific!!"  "Clinton was not convicted in his impeachment, nothing to see here!!"

My point was more about his political issues being his own, but you have a very valid point.  She did stand by him despite the rape allegations and sexual harassment and even defended him recently if I recall correctly.

However, to say Trump only bragged?  No, I'm afraid you're in denial over that aspect.  There are many statements and many women who have come forward about him as well.  To ignore one is to ignore the other and to find fault with one is to find fault with the other. 

Telecaster

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2018, 01:17:22 PM »

In this #MeToo era, Hillary A) stood by someone who AT MINIMUM used his powers to gain sexual favors, and B) took part in smearing the names of his alleged victims. 

Compare that to Trump, who everyone loves to say bragged about "Grabbing them by the..." but in reality, he didn't say he grabbed anyone in particular, nor has he ever, to my knowledge, actually been accused of it.  It was a vulgar and scummy thing to say, but as far as I can tell isn't actually backed up by any real action (okay he had a consensual affair with a Stormy, not illegal) he took. 

So basically, you have someone who bragged about something (in abstract, not even with a specific person) he DIDN'T do, and you have someone else who help enable someone to do actual things that they denied doing.  But the first one is the rapist/sexual assaulter????   

To bring it full circle, the lack of critical thinking by reporters around that has always bugged me about the media.  "Trump said he did something bad that we can't prove he did!  He's horrific!!"  "Clinton was not convicted in his impeachment, nothing to see here!!"

Quite a number of women have accused Trump of improper sexual conduct:

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-accused-trump-sexual-misconduct-list-2017-12#jessica-leeds-1

Anyway, I don't find much value in "but your side is worse!" type of arguments.   The primarily issue with the Stormy Daniels incidence in my mind is that that type of behavior leaves the President of the United States vulnerable to blackmail.  This is not hypothetical.  He in fact was blackmailed by both Daniels and Karen McDougal who received large sums of cash in exchange for their silence. 

Now we know Trump can be blackmailed, who else is blackmailing him?   

fdhs_runner

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2018, 03:14:33 PM »
My comment "There are still some small-government right wingers who want the government to spend more time leaving us alone, and that's free" alluded to the idea that socially liberal ideas cost money and were therefore at odds with fiscal responsibility
I appreciate you clearing that up.

Quote
being for, or agnostic towards, gay marriage costs nothing, and therefore shouldn't be at odds with fiscal responsibility; in fact it should be a money saver due to not having to fight in court about it.

I am a little confused by this.  The latest ruling by the Supreme Court ruled that same sex marriage, being protected by the 14th amendment, is now legal in all 50 states. This is in contrast to allowing states to decide for themselves. Going with the ideal that the government should remove itself from the gay marriage debate would put the decision back into the hands of the states, ignoring the 14th amendment, thereby not Constitutionally protecting same sex marriage.  This of course would lead to some states banning same sex marriage. I suppose it would save the government money . It would cost the states with same sex marriage bans some undetermined amount of revenue as weddings are often good for local business. But overall, it would seem odd to not step in when perceived Constitutional rights are being violated, just to save some cash. 

Quote
On environmental regulations, I'm all for sensible environmental regulations.  However, sensible is the key.  If it costs $1M to get to 99.9% clean, and $10B to get to 99.99% clean, we really need to ask ourselves if that last .09% is worth it.  Maybe it is.  Maybe it isn't.

Couldn't agree more. But to be fair, that isn't what you stated. I absolutely agree that there are some unnecessary regulations and that rolling back regulations (unnecessary and necessary) will certainly save the business money. But I think it really needs to be considered against short and long term impacts. I am sure the environmental regulation discussion could take up many pages on another thread which I neither have the time or inclination to partake in.

Thanks to DOMA the Feds had to get out of their own way in 2013 before the 14th Amendment case in 2015. Arguably the states never should have inserted themselves into marriage inequality either.

Crease

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2018, 08:21:31 AM »
Less than 24 hours apart:

Quote
We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency.

Quote
....Russia, Iran, Syria & many others are not happy about the U.S. leaving, despite what the Fake News says, because now they will have to fight ISIS and others, who they hate, without us. I am building by far the most powerful military in the world. ISIS hits us they are doomed!

GuitarStv

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2018, 12:16:11 PM »
Less than 24 hours apart:

Quote
We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency.

Quote
....Russia, Iran, Syria & many others are not happy about the U.S. leaving, despite what the Fake News says, because now they will have to fight ISIS and others, who they hate, without us. I am building by far the most powerful military in the world. ISIS hits us they are doomed!

There's also Putin cackling with glee that Trump has turned tail and run away from the whole Syria thing.  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/world/europe/putin-trump-syria.html  Y'know.  If facts mattered any more.

Barbaebigode

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2018, 01:27:07 PM »
Less than 24 hours apart:

Quote
We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency.

Quote
....Russia, Iran, Syria & many others are not happy about the U.S. leaving, despite what the Fake News says, because now they will have to fight ISIS and others, who they hate, without us. I am building by far the most powerful military in the world. ISIS hits us they are doomed!

There's also Putin cackling with glee that Trump has turned tail and run away from the whole Syria thing.  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/world/europe/putin-trump-syria.html  Y'know.  If facts mattered any more.

I ha no idea if leaving Syria is good or bad, I'm just gonna enjoy the fact that the US government lied to get out of a foreign country instead of in for a change.

Telecaster

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2018, 02:02:45 PM »

I ha no idea if leaving Syria is good or bad, I'm just gonna enjoy the fact that the US government lied to get out of a foreign country instead of in for a change.

Ha! 

vern

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2018, 07:27:09 PM »
Hopefully Trump will pull us out of Afghanistan next.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2018, 09:24:57 AM »
Hopefully Trump will pull us out of Afghanistan next.
Well, that was fast...https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-agitating-for-major-military-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-advisers-say/2018/12/20/0c35f874-04a3-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html?utm_term=.7146e75a1592

Seems like he's on a withdrawing kick right now. Makes me wonder if he's going to do a large pull back of troops from Germany, Japan, and South Korea.

Just Joe

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2018, 01:24:31 PM »
...and Italy.


soccerluvof4

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #92 on: December 22, 2018, 04:46:38 PM »
"Have you jumped off the Trump Wagon Yet"?  That for me is a tough question because I am one of the few admitted republicans on MMM but I never "Jumped on the wagon". I even went as far as telling my friends I hope Trum wins i dont even care if he gets impeached in two years but with his big mouth he will expose so much shit that needs to be.  I do not like the way he stirs shit up in the media and wish he would cool it BUT that's is who he is. And, I beleive he does it with purpose vs he doesnt know what hes doing.  I will say the bigger problem imo is that we as a society do so much to condemn the opposite side of which we stand and that's escalated to a point that I just don't see how its going to get any better. For me as a republican of course I will say the last great president we have had was Reagan But I have always supported which ever president , left or right which won for the best of our country not bashed them. I am worried that the younger generation seeing how we have become will only escalate this attitude.  I did not like Obama but wanted him to succeed. I could not stand the Clinton's ( mostly Hillary) but despite Bills indiscretions I thought he came around and did a good job. And its because he got the two sides communicating and working together. I don't like the way this country is going with the hate for one part or the other and violence etc.. But if we don't come together things are just going to go to shit like we haven't seen before imo.

fdhs_runner

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2019, 05:00:05 AM »

I ha no idea if leaving Syria is good or bad, I'm just gonna enjoy the fact that the US government lied to get out of a foreign country instead of in for a change.

Ha!

IMHO the bad is that Trump is hanging the Kurds out to dry [again, if we're going back to 1991: https://www.claremoreprogress.com/oklahoma/opinion/column-once-again-u-s-leaves-kurds-high-and-dry/article_2b2f1953-0519-537b-a0bf-d9447a5cc605.html]. Combined with Trump's act in general I'd be surprised if anyone trusts the US again.

Then he claims that the Soviet coup/invasion of 1979 was a good thing!? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/we-gave-more-than-enough-sacrifices-afghans-blast-trumps-praise-of-the-soviet-invasion/2019/01/03/365b01f6-0f4a-11e9-92b8-6dd99e2d80e1_story.html?utm_term=.f413a7f70054

Of course he also drove Sec Mattis away. I didn't vote for the guy and wasn't on the wagon, but this last couple of incidents definitely would have shoved me off it.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 05:02:04 AM by fdhs_runner »

vern

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2019, 04:15:11 PM »

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2019, 04:30:22 PM »


Nope. Not endless war. Just not pulling out on a whim with no rhyme or reason and leaving our friends high and dry.

How about a fuckin’ timeline, to give them some time to prepare? A timeline, that they have some input into?

Is that not a reasonable idea?

HBFIRE

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2019, 05:35:17 PM »

Nope. Not endless war. Just not pulling out on a whim with no rhyme or reason and leaving our friends high and dry.



Are you referring to the illegal invasion we made?

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2019, 06:05:37 PM »

Nope. Not endless war. Just not pulling out on a whim with no rhyme or reason and leaving our friends high and dry.



Are you referring to the illegal invasion we made?

Yes, I am.

talltexan

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2019, 07:20:18 AM »
I'm surprised that you think there are so few Republicans on this site. I would think that a culture of careful financial management, LBYM, and wealth-building and personal responsibility would appeal to the best impulses of Republicans as it does to mine.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2019, 07:55:35 AM »
I'm surprised that you think there are so few Republicans on this site. I would think that a culture of careful financial management, LBYM, and wealth-building and personal responsibility would appeal to the best impulses of Republicans as it does to mine.

It would be easy to not associate those characteristics with Republicans given... almost everything we've seen of them at the national level since at least 2001.