Author Topic: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?  (Read 19777 times)

nereo

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #350 on: February 20, 2019, 07:41:34 AM »

This. If it’s true that as individuals age they drift rightward, there maybe a room for a Moderate Pro-Business party. Except for evangelicals and alt-right types, I can’t see millennials joining the socially conservative Republican Party unless it has a massive sea-change. Meanwhile the purported drift leftward in the Democratic Party (which is NOT what we saw in the midterms... that was a reaffirmation of moderate values) scares me too. A party that based its ideology on acceptance that Wall Street may be evil but it’s a necessarily evil that most Americans need (protecting markets and protecting individuals) and on maximizing economic performance (this may be counterintuitive like national health insurance might increase labor mobility and productivity and breaking up concentrations of wealth) would get my vote.

Listening to the radio on my way in this morning there was a DNC rep that was highly critical of the Dems focus on social issues over class.  The argument he was making was basically that the GOP under Trump has left the door wide open to woo the bottom 80% of the economic ladder - yet most of their time is spent talking about social issues where people have already formed solid opinions (ie abortion, immigration/ICE, LGBTQ, firearms...)

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #351 on: February 20, 2019, 07:53:14 AM »

This. If it’s true that as individuals age they drift rightward, there maybe a room for a Moderate Pro-Business party. Except for evangelicals and alt-right types, I can’t see millennials joining the socially conservative Republican Party unless it has a massive sea-change. Meanwhile the purported drift leftward in the Democratic Party (which is NOT what we saw in the midterms... that was a reaffirmation of moderate values) scares me too. A party that based its ideology on acceptance that Wall Street may be evil but it’s a necessarily evil that most Americans need (protecting markets and protecting individuals) and on maximizing economic performance (this may be counterintuitive like national health insurance might increase labor mobility and productivity and breaking up concentrations of wealth) would get my vote.

Listening to the radio on my way in this morning there was a DNC rep that was highly critical of the Dems focus on social issues over class.  The argument he was making was basically that the GOP under Trump has left the door wide open to woo the bottom 80% of the economic ladder - yet most of their time is spent talking about social issues where people have already formed solid opinions (ie abortion, immigration/ICE, LGBTQ, firearms...)

I would agree with this.

wenchsenior

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #352 on: February 20, 2019, 07:56:43 AM »

This. If it’s true that as individuals age they drift rightward, there maybe a room for a Moderate Pro-Business party. Except for evangelicals and alt-right types, I can’t see millennials joining the socially conservative Republican Party unless it has a massive sea-change. Meanwhile the purported drift leftward in the Democratic Party (which is NOT what we saw in the midterms... that was a reaffirmation of moderate values) scares me too. A party that based its ideology on acceptance that Wall Street may be evil but it’s a necessarily evil that most Americans need (protecting markets and protecting individuals) and on maximizing economic performance (this may be counterintuitive like national health insurance might increase labor mobility and productivity and breaking up concentrations of wealth) would get my vote.

Listening to the radio on my way in this morning there was a DNC rep that was highly critical of the Dems focus on social issues over class.  The argument he was making was basically that the GOP under Trump has left the door wide open to woo the bottom 80% of the economic ladder - yet most of their time is spent talking about social issues where people have already formed solid opinions (ie abortion, immigration/ICE, LGBTQ, firearms...)

I would agree with this.

100% agree.

nereo

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #353 on: February 20, 2019, 08:28:39 AM »
...
Trump 2020: it's too late to fix it now anyway.


My FIL shares this sentiment, and I find it infuriating.  The logic-train seems to be that a split from Trump now would mean a split of the party, and that in turn would lead to the most left-wing progressive government in the history of our country.  It's basically the 'slippery slope' fallacy.  Meanwhile the formerly GOP stances on free trade, federal-government over-reach, foreign policy and other aspects have been tossed into the wind.

It seems like an enormous price to pay for some judges and a tax plan - particularly since *any* future GOP president could have given them the same with less compromising of their core values.

talltexan

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #354 on: February 20, 2019, 12:17:09 PM »
Quote
Conservative writer and radio host Erick Erickson: “Some of my concerns about President Trump remain,” he wrote in a recent column. “But I also recognize that we cannot have the Trump administration policies without President Trump and there is much to like.”

I get that conservatives want conservative judges and lower taxes and they want to get rid of unions and a bunch of other stuff... fine.  But shouldn't the #1 conservative goal be to protect our form of government and faith in our institutions?  Because right now it seems like they are putting up with a bunch of banana republic type BS, just so they can get a tax cut and some judges.  Trading trust in government and our institutions for conservative judges and lower taxes... seems a bit like an ice cream sundae shop trading all the ice cream for chocolate syrup and a cherry.   

Do conservatives think we'll just go back to normal after 8 years of Trump?  After we trash the FBI, after we trash our Intelligence professionals, after we don't protect our election from Russia, we'll what -- just go back to having faith in things and protecting our democracy? 

Go too far, and there will be no going back to normal.  It may already be too late.

Trump 2020: it's too late to fix it now anyway.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/opinion/trump-william-weld.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

ysette9

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #355 on: February 20, 2019, 12:59:25 PM »
Quote
Conservative writer and radio host Erick Erickson: “Some of my concerns about President Trump remain,” he wrote in a recent column. “But I also recognize that we cannot have the Trump administration policies without President Trump and there is much to like.”

I get that conservatives want conservative judges and lower taxes and they want to get rid of unions and a bunch of other stuff... fine.  But shouldn't the #1 conservative goal be to protect our form of government and faith in our institutions?  Because right now it seems like they are putting up with a bunch of banana republic type BS, just so they can get a tax cut and some judges.  Trading trust in government and our institutions for conservative judges and lower taxes... seems a bit like an ice cream sundae shop trading all the ice cream for chocolate syrup and a cherry.   

Do conservatives think we'll just go back to normal after 8 years of Trump?  After we trash the FBI, after we trash our Intelligence professionals, after we don't protect our election from Russia, we'll what -- just go back to having faith in things and protecting our democracy? 

Go too far, and there will be no going back to normal.  It may already be too late.

Trump 2020: it's too late to fix it now anyway.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/opinion/trump-william-weld.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.
That is an interesting perspective. I thought that history has mostly looked kindly on most of those events. The New Deal certainly did much to put impoverished people back to work, stimulating the economy when it desperately needed it and gave us infrastructure projects that are still paying dividends a century later. While WWII was not anything we want again, America’s involvement in it was key to finally bringing the war to an end and ensuring that the Nazis didn’t remain in power with all of their human rights abuses. The economy in the US certainly flourished after as well. Additionally, anyone today who isn’t straight white Christian male is directly and indirectly benefiting from the civil rights movements as the lot of everyone else has slowly been improving, turbo charged by the incredible work of those who gave so much during the civil rights movement.

I suppose you are welcome to your view that this broke a social contract in some way, but I feel society is doing its job when grandma doesn’t starve on the street when she is too old or sick to work, when we can deliver electricity and clean water to our citizens, when people are able to start life out on an even footing with equal opportunities to make themselves a success. The entire point of coming together in this thing called “society” is that we are all better off when we help each other out.

EvenSteven

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #356 on: February 20, 2019, 01:11:34 PM »
Quote
Conservative writer and radio host Erick Erickson: “Some of my concerns about President Trump remain,” he wrote in a recent column. “But I also recognize that we cannot have the Trump administration policies without President Trump and there is much to like.”

I get that conservatives want conservative judges and lower taxes and they want to get rid of unions and a bunch of other stuff... fine.  But shouldn't the #1 conservative goal be to protect our form of government and faith in our institutions?  Because right now it seems like they are putting up with a bunch of banana republic type BS, just so they can get a tax cut and some judges.  Trading trust in government and our institutions for conservative judges and lower taxes... seems a bit like an ice cream sundae shop trading all the ice cream for chocolate syrup and a cherry.   

Do conservatives think we'll just go back to normal after 8 years of Trump?  After we trash the FBI, after we trash our Intelligence professionals, after we don't protect our election from Russia, we'll what -- just go back to having faith in things and protecting our democracy? 

Go too far, and there will be no going back to normal.  It may already be too late.

Trump 2020: it's too late to fix it now anyway.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/opinion/trump-william-weld.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

That's a pretty damning indictment of conservatives.

ncornilsen

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #357 on: February 20, 2019, 03:08:05 PM »
Quote
Conservative writer and radio host Erick Erickson: “Some of my concerns about President Trump remain,” he wrote in a recent column. “But I also recognize that we cannot have the Trump administration policies without President Trump and there is much to like.”

I get that conservatives want conservative judges and lower taxes and they want to get rid of unions and a bunch of other stuff... fine.  But shouldn't the #1 conservative goal be to protect our form of government and faith in our institutions?  Because right now it seems like they are putting up with a bunch of banana republic type BS, just so they can get a tax cut and some judges.  Trading trust in government and our institutions for conservative judges and lower taxes... seems a bit like an ice cream sundae shop trading all the ice cream for chocolate syrup and a cherry.   

Do conservatives think we'll just go back to normal after 8 years of Trump?  After we trash the FBI, after we trash our Intelligence professionals, after we don't protect our election from Russia, we'll what -- just go back to having faith in things and protecting our democracy? 

Go too far, and there will be no going back to normal.  It may already be too late.

Trump 2020: it's too late to fix it now anyway.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/opinion/trump-william-weld.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

That's a pretty damning indictment of conservatives.

Not really. Primarily, anyone can say anything like this with no support. Doesn't mean its true.
It's also not an indictment of conservatives if you can set aside your coloring book propaganda about what the New Deal and Johnson's war on povery actually accomplished.

WW2 was infact great for our economy. I don't know any conservatives who have a problem with our involvement in that war. As a person looking back on the war 80 years later, it's easy to see that we HAD to join to end European fascism, and that afterward we would enjoy a boom like no other as we were the last economy standing. At the time, WW1 with its trench warefare, and pointless victory were very fresh in their minds. I can understand why many were reluctant to engage in another of Europe's wars at that time.

The new deal probably extended the great depression by about 7 years. http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409
It's easy to look at the infrastructure we have out of it now, but 7 years of misery for an entire nation may be too high of a price for it.

And Johnson's 'War on Poverty..." Well, that's quite clearly a failure. 50 years, 22 Trillion dollars, and the poverty rate is still at 14.5% - the same as it was when the started the program.

Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

EvenSteven

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #358 on: February 20, 2019, 03:14:21 PM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

JLee

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Pizzabrewer

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #360 on: February 20, 2019, 03:30:16 PM »
This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

Yup, it sure did.  The "social contract" was that rich, white male citizens had unquestioned power and authority over everyone else.  It's a damn good thing that was broken.

ysette9

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #361 on: February 20, 2019, 03:36:45 PM »
This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

Yup, it sure did.  The "social contract" was that rich, white male citizens had unquestioned power and authority over everyone else.  It's a damn good thing that was broken.
Amen. I’d never be in this position of having accomplished as much with my life as I have so far if it weren’t for that change.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #362 on: February 20, 2019, 03:39:01 PM »
This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

Yup, it sure did.  The "social contract" was that rich, white male citizens had unquestioned power and authority over everyone else.  It's a damn good thing that was broken.
Amen. I’d never be in this position of having accomplished as much with my life as I have so far if it weren’t for that change.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure I would have had an absolutely miserable life if those changes hadn't occurred.

Just Joe

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #363 on: February 20, 2019, 03:42:07 PM »
That is an interesting perspective. I thought that history has mostly looked kindly on most of those events. The New Deal certainly did much to put impoverished people back to work, stimulating the economy when it desperately needed it and gave us infrastructure projects that are still paying dividends a century later. While WWII was not anything we want again, America’s involvement in it was key to finally bringing the war to an end and ensuring that the Nazis didn’t remain in power with all of their human rights abuses. The economy in the US certainly flourished after as well. Additionally, anyone today who isn’t straight white Christian male is directly and indirectly benefiting from the civil rights movements as the lot of everyone else has slowly been improving, turbo charged by the incredible work of those who gave so much during the civil rights movement.

I suppose you are welcome to your view that this broke a social contract in some way, but I feel society is doing its job when grandma doesn’t starve on the street when she is too old or sick to work, when we can deliver electricity and clean water to our citizens, when people are able to start life out on an even footing with equal opportunities to make themselves a success. The entire point of coming together in this thing called “society” is that we are all better off when we help each other out.

Good post. I agree with you.

ncornilsen

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #364 on: February 20, 2019, 03:43:54 PM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.


Just Joe

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #365 on: February 20, 2019, 03:47:59 PM »
And Johnson's 'War on Poverty..." Well, that's quite clearly a failure. 50 years, 22 Trillion dollars, and the poverty rate is still at 14.5% - the same as it was when the started the program.

Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Is living in poverty the same in 2019 as it was in the 1960s? In the 1970s I remember driving to see relatives in my grandfather's pickup truck on dirt roads to see people who barely had electricity very much living like the TV Clampetts on TV in literal shacks. We live in that same part of the state now and people don't live like that now here. Sure there are some lousy single wide trailers but people generally have the basic comforts and if they want more there is plenty of opportunity to earn enough income to do better. If they live amid a tumble down mess its because of extenuating circumstances like health problems or drug dependency or mental illness. 

ysette9

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #366 on: February 20, 2019, 03:48:25 PM »
But you do realize that the Democrats and the republicans basically did a swap with the civil rights being the main issue that forced that, right?

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #367 on: February 20, 2019, 03:49:09 PM »
"The new deal probably extended the great depression by about 7 years. http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409
It's easy to look at the infrastructure we have out of it now, but 7 years of misery for an entire nation may be too high of a price for it."

I disagree. People were literally dying of starvation. People's whose life savings were wiped out committed suicide. There was the creation of social security. Before social security most elderly were living in poverty. Regulations helped prevent future bank runs and bank crashes, as well as give people holding money in banks some assurance of being paid, which increased economic stability and investment into the economy.

I think avoiding those kind of outcomes comes before a few more years of economic depression. 

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #368 on: February 20, 2019, 03:50:46 PM »
But you do realize that the Democrats and the republicans basically did a swap with the civil rights being the main issue that forced that, right?

I always get the chuckles too when people say "But Lincoln was a Republican". Not understanding that Republicans back then are the Democrats of today.

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #369 on: February 20, 2019, 03:52:46 PM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Just want to point out that the word democrat is not equivalent to liberal and the word republican is not equivalent to conservative.  Not sure if it matters in this particular instance, but I suspect it might.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 04:06:21 PM by shenlong55 »

ixtap

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #370 on: February 20, 2019, 03:53:14 PM »
But you do realize that the Democrats and the republicans basically did a swap with the civil rights being the main issue that forced that, right?

I always get the chuckles too when people say "But Lincoln was a Republican". Not understanding that Republicans back then are the Democrats of today.

Damn you and your pesky facts

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #371 on: February 20, 2019, 04:05:32 PM »
The new deal probably extended the great depression by about 7 years. http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409
It's easy to look at the infrastructure we have out of it now, but 7 years of misery for an entire nation may be too high of a price for it.

I disagree. People were literally dying of starvation. People's whose life savings were wiped out committed suicide. There was the creation of social security. Before social security most elderly were living in poverty. Regulations helped prevent future bank runs and bank crashes, as well as give people holding money in banks some assurance of being paid, which increased economic stability and investment into the economy.

I think avoiding those kind of outcomes comes before a few more years of economic depression.

The article is actually blaming a very specific part of the New Deal that was deemed unconstitutional a few years after being passed, not the entire New Deal.  So it didn't really mention any of what you probably think about when you think of the New Deal and it was kind of disingenuous to use it to cast aspersion on those things.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #372 on: February 20, 2019, 04:26:29 PM »
But you do realize that the Democrats and the republicans basically did a swap with the civil rights being the main issue that forced that, right?

I always get the chuckles too when people say "But Lincoln was a Republican". Not understanding that Republicans back then are the Democrats of today.

Yup. There’s a reason Jesse “fuck civil rights” Helms switched parties in 1970.

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #373 on: February 20, 2019, 05:53:06 PM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Absolutely true.  Historically the democrats were pretty resistant to civil rights and tolerated it much more.  This completely reversed over time though.  Modern conservatism's support of racist ideology really came into it's own with Nixon's southern strategy, and has never really looked back.  Both explicitly and implicitly since then, a large portion of the Republican group has supported racism ever since.  This is why for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist . . . it's all the party has done since we were alive.

OtherJen

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #374 on: February 20, 2019, 06:54:18 PM »
This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

Yup, it sure did.  The "social contract" was that rich, white male citizens had unquestioned power and authority over everyone else.  It's a damn good thing that was broken.
Amen. I’d never be in this position of having accomplished as much with my life as I have so far if it weren’t for that change.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure I would have had an absolutely miserable life if those changes hadn't occurred.

Same here.

Dabnasty

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #375 on: February 20, 2019, 08:14:35 PM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Absolutely true.  Historically the democrats were pretty resistant to civil rights and tolerated it much more.  This completely reversed over time though.  Modern conservatism's support of racist ideology really came into it's own with Nixon's southern strategy, and has never really looked back.  Both explicitly and implicitly since then, a large portion of the Republican group has supported racism ever since.  This is why for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist . . . it's all the party has done since we were alive.

Really? I agree with the rest, but comments like this just drag the conversation down.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #376 on: February 21, 2019, 09:22:01 AM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Absolutely true.  Historically the democrats were pretty resistant to civil rights and tolerated it much more.  This completely reversed over time though.  Modern conservatism's support of racist ideology really came into it's own with Nixon's southern strategy, and has never really looked back.  Both explicitly and implicitly since then, a large portion of the Republican group has supported racism ever since.  This is why for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist . . . it's all the party has done since we were alive.

Really? I agree with the rest, but comments like this just drag the conversation down.

Why does it drag the conversation down?  It is a commentary that parties change, and people's perception of them depends on what their recent policies are.  The same is true for any country.

tyort1

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #377 on: February 21, 2019, 09:37:51 AM »
Back in the day, the Dem's used to be the the "Party of sticking up for the little guy" and the Repubs were the party of the big guy (ie, businessmen). 

Then in the 50's and 60's, the Dem leadership started to say "wait, minorities in this country are getting an even worse shake than the average white person and we need to stick up for them, too!". 

Well, there goes all your southern blue collar workers.  By the end of the 60's and throughout the 70's you saw a mass exodus of southern blue collar voters from the Dems to the Repubs who were now saying "Hey, come be with the job creators (white people!) and screw those "takers" (minorities). 

Even though the Repubs went on being the party of big business, systematically screwing over the workers (via NAFTA, support of offshoring, undermining workers unions, etc) now you see the results, the middle of this country is much worse off because of these "business friendly" policies. 

Here's the thing.  I'm from the South.  Those people are racist as hell.  That's not going to change.  The more you challenge them on it, the more they just double down.  If the Dems want to win again, they'll stop talking about race and start talking about economics and go back to being the party of the little guy. 

And in fact, this is my theory why Trump got elected.  Even though he's not really a classic Republican.  It's really because he's the first Republican in a generation to say "Wow, our trade policies (like NAFTA) are terrible and it really screwed you people in the middle of the country!".  And THAT's the reason Trump carried those middle swing states.  He's finally saying that the policies of the past 40 years have screwed the blue collar workers and they are like "Hell yeah". 

nereo

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #378 on: February 21, 2019, 09:39:47 AM »
I only consider what a party's policies have been through the last decade or two, and completely ignore their platforms more than ~30 years ago, because parties change.  The GOP may trace its routes to Lincoln, but that doesn't mean it bares any resemblance to its platform during the 19th century. Heck, Ronald Reagan would have a hard time identifying the current GOP platform.   Likewise the Democrats had an absolute lock on southern states for over half a century - today is seems unthinkable that any Democrat could win the majority of southern votes.

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #379 on: February 21, 2019, 09:55:17 AM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Absolutely true.  Historically the democrats were pretty resistant to civil rights and tolerated it much more.  This completely reversed over time though.  Modern conservatism's support of racist ideology really came into it's own with Nixon's southern strategy, and has never really looked back.  Both explicitly and implicitly since then, a large portion of the Republican group has supported racism ever since.  This is why for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist . . . it's all the party has done since we were alive.

Really? I agree with the rest, but comments like this just drag the conversation down.

Why does it drag the conversation down?  It is a commentary that parties change, and people's perception of them depends on what their recent policies are.  The same is true for any country.

I probably could have been more clear but what I meant was I agree with most of the comment, it's the strikethrough portion that harms the discussion. Racism is not all the Republicans have done in the last 30 years. Absolute statements like that do not foster productive discussion, especially in a thread where we're looking for honest opinions from Trump supporters, likely Republicans.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 11:54:17 AM by Dabnasty »

nereo

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #380 on: February 21, 2019, 11:19:08 AM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Absolutely true.  Historically the democrats were pretty resistant to civil rights and tolerated it much more.  This completely reversed over time though.  Modern conservatism's support of racist ideology really came into it's own with Nixon's southern strategy, and has never really looked back.  Both explicitly and implicitly since then, a large portion of the Republican group has supported racism ever since.  This is why for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist . . . it's all the party has done since we were alive.

Really? I agree with the rest, but comments like this just drag the conversation down.

Why does it drag the conversation down?  It is a commentary that parties change, and people's perception of them depends on what their recent policies are.  The same is true for any country.

I probably could have been more clear but what I meant was I agree with most of the comment, it's the strikethrough portion that harms the discussion. Racism is not all the Republicans have done in the last 30 years. Absolute statements like that do not foster productive discussion, especially in a thread where we're looking for the honest opinions from Trump supporters, likely Republicans.
Ok, so it doesn't seem that you object to all of what you striked out, but perhaps only the latter half, and maybe just the word "all" (i.e. "...it's all the party has done since we were alive").
no doubt there's much in the way of legislation and EO that both parties have pushed over the last ~30 years

Dabnasty

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #381 on: February 21, 2019, 11:53:19 AM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Absolutely true.  Historically the democrats were pretty resistant to civil rights and tolerated it much more.  This completely reversed over time though.  Modern conservatism's support of racist ideology really came into it's own with Nixon's southern strategy, and has never really looked back.  Both explicitly and implicitly since then, a large portion of the Republican group has supported racism ever since.  This is why for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist . . . it's all the party has done since we were alive.

Really? I agree with the rest, but comments like this just drag the conversation down.

Why does it drag the conversation down?  It is a commentary that parties change, and people's perception of them depends on what their recent policies are.  The same is true for any country.

I probably could have been more clear but what I meant was I agree with most of the comment, it's the strikethrough portion that harms the discussion. Racism is not all the Republicans have done in the last 30 years. Absolute statements like that do not foster productive discussion, especially in a thread where we're looking for the honest opinions from Trump supporters, likely Republicans.
Ok, so it doesn't seem that you object to all of what you striked out, but perhaps only the latter half, and maybe just the word "all" (i.e. "...it's all the party has done since we were alive").
no doubt there's much in the way of legislation and EO that both parties have pushed over the last ~30 years

Saying that Republican is synonymous with racist is also an absolute statement and in my opinion unfair to many Republicans. I acknowledge that anyone who identifies with the Republican party is either accepting of, ignorant of, or willing to overlook racist policy and actions within the party, but that does not make them de facto racist.

The statement was prefaced with "for many people of my generation" which I'll admit makes it a bit ambiguous since it was not stated as fact but rather that the idea exists within some peoples' minds. Even so, I doubt anyone who identifies as Republican or even votes Republican occasionally is going to take the less offensive interpretation.

Even if I thought the statements were true, the point I was trying to make was that the first part of the comment got the message across. Adding that last sentence was poking the bear for no good reason.


sherr

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #382 on: February 21, 2019, 11:55:28 AM »
if you can set aside your coloring book propaganda

Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Lol.

tyort1

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #383 on: February 21, 2019, 12:32:10 PM »
if you can set aside your coloring book propaganda

Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Lol.

Actually, the Dems at the time were mostly southern working class (ie, racists).  So no surprise it wasn't super popular with the Dems at the time. 

What's more interesting is that the passage of this bill caused a massive defection of southern working class people from Dem to Repub. 

The fact is, these voters have alway been an albatross around the neck of American progress, whether they identify as R or D doesn't matter, it's the same group that's been holding us back, since before the civil war. 

sherr

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #384 on: February 21, 2019, 12:50:35 PM »
if you can set aside your coloring book propaganda

Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Lol.

Actually, the Dems at the time were mostly southern working class (ie, racists).  So no surprise it wasn't super popular with the Dems at the time. 

What's more interesting is that the passage of this bill caused a massive defection of southern working class people from Dem to Repub. 

The fact is, these voters have alway been an albatross around the neck of American progress, whether they identify as R or D doesn't matter, it's the same group that's been holding us back, since before the civil war.

I'm very much aware, and I feel like that obviously true fact has already been beaten to death in this thread (which is why I didn't bother repeating it).

I was just laughing at @ncornilsen accusing other people of having a "coloring book propoganda" understanding of something and then immediately repeating a "coloring book propaganda" understanding of the history of the parties and racist oppression.

nereo

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #385 on: February 21, 2019, 01:12:01 PM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Absolutely true.  Historically the democrats were pretty resistant to civil rights and tolerated it much more.  This completely reversed over time though.  Modern conservatism's support of racist ideology really came into it's own with Nixon's southern strategy, and has never really looked back.  Both explicitly and implicitly since then, a large portion of the Republican group has supported racism ever since.  This is why for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist . . . it's all the party has done since we were alive.

Really? I agree with the rest, but comments like this just drag the conversation down.

Why does it drag the conversation down?  It is a commentary that parties change, and people's perception of them depends on what their recent policies are.  The same is true for any country.

I probably could have been more clear but what I meant was I agree with most of the comment, it's the strikethrough portion that harms the discussion. Racism is not all the Republicans have done in the last 30 years. Absolute statements like that do not foster productive discussion, especially in a thread where we're looking for the honest opinions from Trump supporters, likely Republicans.
Ok, so it doesn't seem that you object to all of what you striked out, but perhaps only the latter half, and maybe just the word "all" (i.e. "...it's all the party has done since we were alive").
no doubt there's much in the way of legislation and EO that both parties have pushed over the last ~30 years

Saying that Republican is synonymous with racist is also an absolute statement and in my opinion unfair to many Republicans. I acknowledge that anyone who identifies with the Republican party is either accepting of, ignorant of, or willing to overlook racist policy and actions within the party, but that does not make them de facto racist.

The statement was prefaced with "for many people of my generation" which I'll admit makes it a bit ambiguous since it was not stated as fact but rather that the idea exists within some peoples' minds. Even so, I doubt anyone who identifies as Republican or even votes Republican occasionally is going to take the less offensive interpretation.

Even if I thought the statements were true, the point I was trying to make was that the first part of the comment got the message across. Adding that last sentence was poking the bear for no good reason.

As I see it, no one was making an absolute statement that Republicans are racists.  What was said was that "for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist."  That is not the same, and is also likely true.  Regardless of whether it is true or not (and to what degree and what percentage), many people do view Republicans in this manner.

A similar thing can be said about Democrats, where 'Many people view Democrat as synonymous with socialist."  Its a frequent criticism and derogatory label placed on the party from many on the right, just as 'racist' is a frequent criticism and derogatory label placed on the GOP from those on the left.  Do you see the distinction?

Dabnasty

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #386 on: February 21, 2019, 01:43:12 PM »
Quote
Civil rights - look which part was resisting civil rights.

Was it conservatives? I think it was conservatives.

You would be wrong.

only 61% of democrats supported the bill. 81% of republicans did. Ergo, Democrats were the party in resistance to civil rights.

Absolutely true.  Historically the democrats were pretty resistant to civil rights and tolerated it much more.  This completely reversed over time though.  Modern conservatism's support of racist ideology really came into it's own with Nixon's southern strategy, and has never really looked back.  Both explicitly and implicitly since then, a large portion of the Republican group has supported racism ever since.  This is why for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist . . . it's all the party has done since we were alive.

Really? I agree with the rest, but comments like this just drag the conversation down.

Why does it drag the conversation down?  It is a commentary that parties change, and people's perception of them depends on what their recent policies are.  The same is true for any country.

I probably could have been more clear but what I meant was I agree with most of the comment, it's the strikethrough portion that harms the discussion. Racism is not all the Republicans have done in the last 30 years. Absolute statements like that do not foster productive discussion, especially in a thread where we're looking for the honest opinions from Trump supporters, likely Republicans.
Ok, so it doesn't seem that you object to all of what you striked out, but perhaps only the latter half, and maybe just the word "all" (i.e. "...it's all the party has done since we were alive").
no doubt there's much in the way of legislation and EO that both parties have pushed over the last ~30 years

Saying that Republican is synonymous with racist is also an absolute statement and in my opinion unfair to many Republicans. I acknowledge that anyone who identifies with the Republican party is either accepting of, ignorant of, or willing to overlook racist policy and actions within the party, but that does not make them de facto racist.

The statement was prefaced with "for many people of my generation" which I'll admit makes it a bit ambiguous since it was not stated as fact but rather that the idea exists within some peoples' minds. Even so, I doubt anyone who identifies as Republican or even votes Republican occasionally is going to take the less offensive interpretation.

Even if I thought the statements were true, the point I was trying to make was that the first part of the comment got the message across. Adding that last sentence was poking the bear for no good reason.

As I see it, no one was making an absolute statement that Republicans are racists.  What was said was that "for many people of my generation, Republican is synonymous with racist."  That is not the same, and is also likely true.  Regardless of whether it is true or not (and to what degree and what percentage), many people do view Republicans in this manner.

A similar thing can be said about Democrats, where 'Many people view Democrat as synonymous with socialist."  Its a frequent criticism and derogatory label placed on the party from many on the right, just as 'racist' is a frequent criticism and derogatory label placed on the GOP from those on the left.  Do you see the distinction?

I do, I addressed this in the bolded above.

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #387 on: February 21, 2019, 03:39:10 PM »

I'm very much aware, and I feel like that obviously true fact has already been beaten to death in this thread (which is why I didn't bother repeating it).

I was just laughing at @ncornilsen accusing other people of having a "coloring book propoganda" understanding of something and then immediately repeating a "coloring book propaganda" understanding of the history of the parties and racist oppression.

I am very clear on how party change over time. I was addressing, specifically, this:

Quote
This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

Look at the time period. At that TIME, it was not Conservatives or Republicans who felt the social contract was broken by civil rights. It was democrats.

The rest of my post was to put some context around the other programs mentioned. I don't think extending the period where people were starving and suffering by 7 years was worth getting a few bridges and dams that probably would have been built anyways. There were elements of the New Deal that were good, but those elements could have easily existed without the new deal, and indeed probably would have.

And for 22 trillion dollars, I'd think we should have gotten more than upgrading people from shacks to shitty mobile homes someone's anecdote above said.
That said, while looking for more data to support and clarify my arguments, it appears that the official poverty figure does not include after-benefits income levels and is therefore somewhat of a flawed measure. At first blush it seems that if the same % of people are in poverty now as then, and the only reason poverty is lower by other measures is the 'income' from handouts, then the 'war' has indeed failed to rehabilitate people and convert them to self reliant members of society. I'll have to read on this more.



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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #388 on: February 21, 2019, 03:45:37 PM »

I'm very much aware, and I feel like that obviously true fact has already been beaten to death in this thread (which is why I didn't bother repeating it).

I was just laughing at @ncornilsen accusing other people of having a "coloring book propoganda" understanding of something and then immediately repeating a "coloring book propaganda" understanding of the history of the parties and racist oppression.

I am very clear on how party change over time. I was addressing, specifically, this:

Quote
This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

Look at the time period. At that TIME, it was not Conservatives or Republicans who felt the social contract was broken by civil rights. It was democrats.

The rest of my post was to put some context around the other programs mentioned. I don't think extending the period where people were starving and suffering by 7 years was worth getting a few bridges and dams that probably would have been built anyways. There were elements of the New Deal that were good, but those elements could have easily existed without the new deal, and indeed probably would have.

And for 22 trillion dollars, I'd think we should have gotten more than upgrading people from shacks to shitty mobile homes someone's anecdote above said.
That said, while looking for more data to support and clarify my arguments, it appears that the official poverty figure does not include after-benefits income levels and is therefore somewhat of a flawed measure. At first blush it seems that if the same % of people are in poverty now as then, and the only reason poverty is lower by other measures is the 'income' from handouts, then the 'war' has indeed failed to rehabilitate people and convert them to self reliant members of society. I'll have to read on this more.

At that time, the conservatives were Democrats.

sherr

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #389 on: February 21, 2019, 04:01:45 PM »

I'm very much aware, and I feel like that obviously true fact has already been beaten to death in this thread (which is why I didn't bother repeating it).

I was just laughing at @ncornilsen accusing other people of having a "coloring book propoganda" understanding of something and then immediately repeating a "coloring book propaganda" understanding of the history of the parties and racist oppression.

I am very clear on how party change over time. I was addressing, specifically, this:

Quote
This is what conservatives felt like after 1930-1968. New Deal, WWII, Civil Rights, and Johnson's massive social programs irrevocably broke the social contract as conservatives understood it.

Look at the time period. At that TIME, it was not Conservatives or Republicans who felt the social contract was broken by civil rights. It was democrats.

The rest of my post was to put some context around the other programs mentioned. I don't think extending the period where people were starving and suffering by 7 years was worth getting a few bridges and dams that probably would have been built anyways. There were elements of the New Deal that were good, but those elements could have easily existed without the new deal, and indeed probably would have.

And for 22 trillion dollars, I'd think we should have gotten more than upgrading people from shacks to shitty mobile homes someone's anecdote above said.
That said, while looking for more data to support and clarify my arguments, it appears that the official poverty figure does not include after-benefits income levels and is therefore somewhat of a flawed measure. At first blush it seems that if the same % of people are in poverty now as then, and the only reason poverty is lower by other measures is the 'income' from handouts, then the 'war' has indeed failed to rehabilitate people and convert them to self reliant members of society. I'll have to read on this more.

At that time, the conservatives were Democrats.

The social conservatives were Democrats, yes. I think it's probably true that the Republicans were more fiscally conservative. The New Deal was hardly a fiscally conservative plan.

Even if the authors of that one paper are right, the "7-year lengthening" of the depression was due to one specific anti-competition clause of the New Deal, not the whole thing like @ncornilsen is trying to claim. It wasn't anything that we would recognize as being part of the New Deal today because it was struck down almost immediately, as @shenlong55 already pointed out. So you know, we won't do that part again, because it's unconstitutional. Problem solved.

Quote
NIRA's role in prolonging the Depression has not been more closely scrutinized because the Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional within two years of its passage.
 
"Historians have assumed that the policies didn't have an impact because they were too short-lived, but the proof is in the pudding," Ohanian said. "We show that they really did artificially inflate wages and prices."

Even after being deemed unconstitutional, Roosevelt's anti-competition policies persisted — albeit under a different guise, the scholars found. Ohanian and Cole painstakingly documented the extent to which the Roosevelt administration looked the other way as industries once protected by NIRA continued to engage in price-fixing practices for four more years.

I forget, which side is it these days that looks the other way when companies engage in price-fixing and anticompetitive practices? Maybe then-Democrats were more "fiscally conservative" after all.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 04:07:22 PM by sherr »