Author Topic: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?  (Read 16243 times)

anisotropy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #300 on: January 31, 2019, 05:25:02 PM »

In which case - do you not see any connection between the ideologies of the far right and their violent actions?

Yes that could very well be. But we need to keep in mind it is difficult to determine how much of it was caused by MAGA.

Bowers (Pittsburgh shooter), for example, has publicly stated he never voted for Trump nor ever had anything to do with MAGA, but most people still think it's MAGA induced. This goes back to how alt-right are not all right. The majority of MAGA supporters, as Murphy had shown, are to the left of Ted Cruz.

Anti-Semitism runs deep in the far right and it is not tolerable. I am sure you've heard plenty of crazy theories on how Jews worship the devil or the lizardmen. Much of it fundamentally was because Jews had been historically more wealthy as a group, or as we call it today, more privilege. Scary to see the left pulling the same thing and anti-Semitism growing on the left too.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #301 on: January 31, 2019, 05:32:44 PM »

In which case - do you not see any connection between the ideologies of the far right and their violent actions?

Yes that could very well be. But we need to keep in mind it is difficult to determine how much of it was caused by MAGA.

Bowers (Pittsburgh shooter), for example, has publicly stated he never voted for Trump nor ever had anything to do with MAGA, but most people still think it's MAGA induced. This goes back to how alt-right are not all right. The majority of MAGA supporters, as Murphy had shown, are to the left of Ted Cruz.

Anti-Semitism runs deep in the far right and it is not tolerable. I am sure you've heard plenty of crazy theories on how Jews worship the devil or the lizardmen. Much of it fundamentally was because Jews had been historically more wealthy as a group, or as we call it today, more privilege. Scary to see the left pulling the same thing and anti-Semitism growing on the left too.

I think it would be really great to hear from some Jewish people as to whether they think anti-Semitism is growing on the left.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #302 on: January 31, 2019, 05:33:26 PM »
I do think there are extreme people on either end. I do know some fringy very left wing people, who are into conspiracies. Maybe I'm just lucky? but when I talk to these people, jewish people don't come up. Their conspiracy stuff has more to do with the government and chem trails and survelliance type stuff.

Where I have heard impromptu anti-semitic stuff is in rural areas, and in yes older family members by marriage who lived in smaller towns who would drop some "The Jews..." lines. 

I never said that blacks couldn't be racist. Only that the definition of racist has to do with superior of one race over another (not about say perceived injustices). So for example it is safe to say the Farrahkan is racist as well as an anti-semite.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 05:36:50 PM by partgypsy »

MrDelane

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #303 on: January 31, 2019, 06:05:11 PM »

In which case - do you not see any connection between the ideologies of the far right and their violent actions?

Yes that could very well be. But we need to keep in mind it is difficult to determine how much of it was caused by MAGA.

Bowers (Pittsburgh shooter), for example, has publicly stated he never voted for Trump nor ever had anything to do with MAGA, but most people still think it's MAGA induced. This goes back to how alt-right are not all right. The majority of MAGA supporters, as Murphy had shown, are to the left of Ted Cruz.

Anti-Semitism runs deep in the far right and it is not tolerable. I am sure you've heard plenty of crazy theories on how Jews worship the devil or the lizardmen. Much of it fundamentally was because Jews had been historically more wealthy as a group, or as we call it today, more privilege. Scary to see the left pulling the same thing and anti-Semitism growing on the left too.

I agree, we are not talking about 'all right' just like we are not talking about 'all left.'
We are talking about the extremes of each, which is what we both seem to be concerned about.

We both agree that ideologies can be dangerous insofar as the actions they can lead to.

We both agree that "physical violence is overwhelmingly coming from" extreme adherents of ideology A.

You seem to believe that there is potential danger in extreme adherents of ideology B.

So there are two competing ideologies, one which is connected to real acts of violence and one which you believe has the potential for violence.  Yet somehow you walk away from that concluding that ideology B is the worse of the two? Can you explain that logic to me?  (i'm sincerely asking, not trying to sound combative)

Do you think it's coincidence that violence is coming from the far right, while simultaneously dropping over the past decade from the far left?  Yet somehow you seem to simultaneously believe that the ideology of the far left is somehow guaranteed to lead to violence?  There seems to be a logical disconnect there, at least from my vantage point.

Ideologies either affect action or they do not.
And if they do, I fail to see how an ideology with the perceived potential for violence is somehow more dangerous than one that is demonstrably tied to increased violence.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 06:22:58 PM by MrDelane »

GuitarStv

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #304 on: January 31, 2019, 06:10:06 PM »
Call it an ex-Commie's "lived experience".

You keep mentioning that you lived in a communist country like it has some bearing on this conversation.

Are you implying that people in the Women's March were communists, that everyone politically left of the Republican party is communist, that speaking out against racism/sexism makes one a communist, or something else?

MrDelane

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #305 on: January 31, 2019, 06:48:29 PM »

In which case - do you not see any connection between the ideologies of the far right and their violent actions?

Yes that could very well be. But we need to keep in mind it is difficult to determine how much of it was caused by MAGA.

Bowers (Pittsburgh shooter), for example, has publicly stated he never voted for Trump nor ever had anything to do with MAGA, but most people still think it's MAGA induced. This goes back to how alt-right are not all right. The majority of MAGA supporters, as Murphy had shown, are to the left of Ted Cruz.

Anti-Semitism runs deep in the far right and it is not tolerable. I am sure you've heard plenty of crazy theories on how Jews worship the devil or the lizardmen. Much of it fundamentally was because Jews had been historically more wealthy as a group, or as we call it today, more privilege. Scary to see the left pulling the same thing and anti-Semitism growing on the left too.

I just reread what you wrote and realize I may have misunderstood what you were saying. My fault for reading too quickly.  Let me repeat what I think I'm hearing and you tell me if I'm getting it.

You seem to be trying to split MAGA from the right by pointing out that the majority of MAGA supporters are to the left of Ted Cruz, and therefore not all right wing.

Is that correct?

If so, MAGA probably needs to be defined, because that is not an ideology or system that I'm familiar with, aside from a political tagline on a hat.  Unless you are simply using MAGA as a substitute for Trump?

I would also point out that Ted Cruz is far from a centrist, and one can easily be to the left of Ted Cruz while still being squarely on the right, politically.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 06:51:48 PM by MrDelane »

anisotropy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #306 on: January 31, 2019, 10:23:45 PM »
I think it would be really great to hear from some Jewish people as to whether they think anti-Semitism is growing on the left.

You mean like my wife?

Partgypsy,
I think we actually agree on quite a bit, and I am really glad to hear you say Farrakhan is a racist. Too many on the left these days give the ilk like him a free pass because.... well, as I repeatedly said, they've made racism a uni-directional word now. I reject the new definition of racism (power based) and I uphold its classical meanings. I think all racists are despicable for they target groups on their immutable characteristics. I also denounce those white supremacists we saw in Charlottesville, like you do. But, and here comes the but, which ties into my reply to MrD. ps. next time you converse with the left fringe, ask them who they think run the govt. Big Corp? Banks? well... you know where that is headed.

MrD,
Ted Cruz is not Centrist, yet he is also not far right. Far right to me has a very specific meaning: white supremacist or right-wing-authoritarian. They often go hand-in-hand (like Nazis), but occasionally we get those white supremacist anarchist. Ted Cruz is clearly neither.

Let us assume MAGA and Alt-right have significant overlap, as many self-identify as such according to Murphy.

MAGA and Alt-right these days are almost synonymous to "Far-right" by media and the Left. You know what I am about to say, more examples of Trojan-Horse words. But as Murphy had shown, that is decidedly not the case. Over 2/3 of the Alt-right crowd is to the left of Ted Cruz, yet they are routinely given the label of Far-right, Nazis, Racists, which I don't think they deserve. Perhaps up to a quarter of them are left of the moderates with a long tail of Lefties. In fact, Murphy address this in the sections: "A Closer Look at the Kekistani Left" and "A Closer Look at Kekistani Racism" of the article.

Indeed I am proposing we, especially the Progressives, need to re-evaluate our understanding of the MAGA and Alt-right crowd. Instead of labelling them all racists and Nazis (like they had done with Sandman) simply because the fringe of this crowd are indeed white supremacists.

What is my view of the MAGA crowd? Well for one they are definitely pro-Trump. They also view themselves as true patriots, although I am not sure if that would be an adequate description objectively. Many of them want a wall in the South for reasons other than racism. They hope to see MAGA come to pass, meaning good-paying, secure jobs would be plentiful again. Oh, and for some reason, they are ok with ceding international leaderships to Russia and China.

So my view of MAGA is not only political (ie right or left) per se, but also economic in nature. I think it's definitely strikes a cord with traditional conservative values, which is why it has a mode just to the left of Cruz. But at the same time, its "supposed" economic allure entraps many moderates and centrists as well.

EDIT: This is Murphy's take on Alt-right:

"Overall, I would summarize Kekistan [Alt-right] as a virtual “country” populated by emigrants from existing countries who all share a strong commitment to free speech (and nearly nothing else). While the center of gravity is certainly to the right, it is unlikely to be much farther to the right (if at all) than the right-wing of the American Congress. An overwhelming majority of these right-wing Kekistanis express no interest in racial politics (indeed, it is clear that the Kekistani “ethnicity” is mostly a mockery of anyone who cares very much about ethnic identity). That said, there is a clear non-trivial minority of explicit racists and White Nationalists. Most interestingly, I find clear evidence that there is a non-trivial “long tail” of centrists and even leftists, using a technique for Bayesian ideal point estimation that has been validated by previous research (Barberá 2015). "

'While many would be inclined to take this as evidence that Kekistan has a latent racist character generally (because Trump is seen as a unifier of white racism), I think the upshot of this analysis is different.'

"Although Kekistan’s [Alt-right] favorite American politician is Donald Trump, the most empirically warranted interpretation, in my view, is that Kekistani Trump supporters love The Donald primarily because they love freedom of speech above all else. Racism or white supremacy is simply not the shared factor explaining why thousands of people have moved to (or occasionally vacation in) the country of Kekistan. "
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 10:58:39 PM by anisotropy »

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #307 on: February 01, 2019, 04:58:31 AM »
No, like some people on this forum.

Poundwise

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #308 on: February 01, 2019, 05:57:13 AM »
I'm confused by all this stuff about Cruz, wives, Kekistan.

To me, the equation seems quite simple. Trump is at least a functional racist, which is even worse than an outspoken racist, because he is hurting people. He makes changes that disproportionately hurt people with darker skin (detention/separation of non-European immigrants). He fails to help same (Puerto Rico).  He brings attention to people with darker skin when they seem to behave badly; he takes no notice when people with darker skin do well. 

Wearing a MAGA hat means you support Trump's policies.  This means at the least, poor judgement, a selfish outlook on life, and passive racism.  At the worst, active racism.

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #309 on: February 01, 2019, 06:32:40 AM »
You are going to have to back up and explain who Kek or Kekistan is

MrDelane

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #310 on: February 01, 2019, 06:57:23 AM »
After a few references to Murphy and not being familiar with the 'study' you were talking about I finally dug into it last night and read it.  You are giving entirely too much weight to one person's statistical analysis of a sample of tweets.  First, we are only looking at people who use Twitter (which is roughly 1/5th of the nation). We have no idea what percentage of 'MAGA' supporters (since we're insisting on continuing to use that ill defined term) are twitter users.  We have no way of knowing how those on twitter may differ from non-twitter using MAGA supporters. On top of that, the vast majority of Americans (MAGA supporters included) have no idea what 'Kekistan' is, which was the first threshold for him to include a tweet in his 'study.' (I had no idea what it was and it took me a some internet searching to find out and even make sense of Murphy's post).  And from there there was inference on top of inference.

Yes, perhaps there is something that can be concluded about twitter users who are familiar with the niche term 'Kekistan' from Murphy's article, but I don't see how you can take anything from his 'findings' and apply it to the real world.

As far as Ted Cruz goes, you are right in that he is not a nazi.  But he is very much far to the right.  To quote the NY Times on him:

Quote
On perhaps the defining issue of the 2016 Republican primary, Senator Ted Cruz falls well to the right of Ronald Reagan, who supported granting legal status to millions of undocumented immigrants.

He opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest, and has called for a federal amendment that would allow states to avoid performing or recognizing same-sex marriages.

He wants to return to the gold standard, abolish the Internal Revenue Service and create a tax structure simple enough for Americans to file on postcards.

He has criticized Donald J. Trump on deportation policy. From the right.

Throughout his Senate career, Republican opponents have cast Mr. Cruz as a master of the ill-considered — a “wacko bird,” as Senator John McCain of Arizona once called him — whose seemingly reckless pursuits were thought to place him well outside the mainstream.

Regardless - let's go ahead and assume that the majority of the MAGA crowd is not on the extreme right wing (which is a fair assumption).  It is still quite possible that the MAGA crowd has emboldened and allowed the violence which is overwhelmingly coming from the right.

We know that right wing violence has increased dramatically since Trump took office, that is what the data shows.  We also know that the KKK and many other extreme right wing group supported and endorsed him. To paraphrase Gillum, 'I’m not calling him a racist. I’m simply saying the racists believe he’s a racist.

For example - you pointed out Bowers as a defense, saying:
Quote
Bowers (Pittsburgh shooter), for example, has publicly stated he never voted for Trump nor ever had anything to do with MAGA, but most people still think it's MAGA induced.

And you're right, Bowers never voted for Trump.  What you failed to point out is that there is also reason to believe Bowers felt Trump “betrayed” right-wing radical protesters at Charlottesville.  You don't feel someone betrayed you if you didn't feel they were supporting you initially.  Bower's may not be a Trump supporter, but apparently he felt Trump was at one point an alt-right supporter. And that is the portion of this equation I feel you might be overlooking. I don't know that the majority of people feel that all MAGA supporters are white supremacists, but the majority of americans do seem to believe that this administration has encouraged white supremacists.

So yes, perhaps the majority of MAGA supporters are not part of the extreme right wing.  But for some reason the vast majority of the extreme right wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the MAGA supporters, and they are taking that permission and turning it into violence.

So again - we have two ideologies.
One is proven and demonstrably tied to violent acts in which Americans have been killed.
The other, which is opposed to the first, you feel has the potential to lead to violence.

And somehow you feel the later is more dangerous than the former.
That doesn't make any logical sense.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 07:19:20 AM by MrDelane »

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #311 on: February 01, 2019, 07:04:20 AM »
After a few references to Murphy and not being familiar with the 'study' you were talking about I finally dug into it last night and read it.  You are giving entirely too much weight to one person's statistical analysis of a sample of tweets.  We have no idea what percentage of 'MAGA' supporters (since we're insisting on continuing to use that ill defined term) are twitter users. The vast majority of Americans have no idea what 'Kekistan' is, which was the first threshold for him to include a tweet in his 'study.' (I had no idea what it was and it took me a some internet searching to find out and even make sense of Murphy's post).  And from there there was inference on top of inference.

Yes, perhaps there is something that can be concluded about right wing twitter users from Murphy's article, but I don't see how you can take anything from his 'findings' and apply it to the real world.

As far as Ted Cruz goes, you are right in that he is not a nazi.  But he is very much far to the right.  To quote the NY Times on him:

Quote
On perhaps the defining issue of the 2016 Republican primary, Senator Ted Cruz falls well to the right of Ronald Reagan, who supported granting legal status to millions of undocumented immigrants.

He opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest, and has called for a federal amendment that would allow states to avoid performing or recognizing same-sex marriages.

He wants to return to the gold standard, abolish the Internal Revenue Service and create a tax structure simple enough for Americans to file on postcards.

He has criticized Donald J. Trump on deportation policy. From the right.

Throughout his Senate career, Republican opponents have cast Mr. Cruz as a master of the ill-considered — a “wacko bird,” as Senator John McCain of Arizona once called him — whose seemingly reckless pursuits were thought to place him well outside the mainstream.

Regardless - let's go ahead and assume that the majority of the MAGA crowd is not on the extreme right wing (which is a fair assumption).  It is still quite possible that the MAGA crowd has emboldened and allowed the violence which is overwhelmingly coming from the right.

We know that right wing violence has increased dramatically since Trump took office, that is what the data shows.  We also know that the KKK and many other extreme right wing group supported and endorsed him. To paraphrase Gillum, 'I’m not calling him a racist. I’m simply saying the racists believe he’s a racist.

For example - you pointed out Bowers as a defense, saying:
Quote
Bowers (Pittsburgh shooter), for example, has publicly stated he never voted for Trump nor ever had anything to do with MAGA, but most people still think it's MAGA induced.

And you're right, Bowers never voted for Trump.  What you failed to point out is that Bowers also said he felt Trump “betrayed” right-wing radical protesters at Charlottesville.  You don't feel someone betrayed you if you didn't feel they were supporting you initially.  Bower's may not be a Trump supporter, but apparently he felt Trump was at one point an alt-right supporter.

So yes, perhaps the majority of MAGA supporters are not part of the extreme right wing.  But for some reason the vast majority of the extreme right wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the MAGA supporters, and they are taking that permission and turning it into violence.

So again - we have two ideologies.
One is proven and demonstrably tied to violent acts in which Americans have been killed.
The other, which is opposed to the first, you feel has the potential to lead to violence.

And somehow you feel the later is more dangerous than the former.
That doesn't make any logical sense.

+1.

Thank you for taking the time to write this, MrDelane.

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #312 on: February 01, 2019, 09:54:41 AM »
Indeed I am proposing we, especially the Progressives, need to re-evaluate our understanding of the MAGA and Alt-right crowd. Instead of labelling them all racists and Nazis (like they had done with Sandman) simply because the fringe of this crowd are indeed white supremacists.

You seem stuck on this particular straw man, so I just wanted to point out that Sandmann wasn't labeled a racist or Nazi solely because he wore a MAGA hat.  He also engaged in questionable activity, activity that others could reasonably interpret as racist within a certain context.  I think if someone wants to wear a MAGA hat for reasons other than racism then it's their responsibility to avoid engaging in such questionable activity or else accept that they may be mistakenly labeled a racist.  If someone wants to redeem a term/symbol that has been co-opted by a fringe group then they should do it by using the term/symbol while exhibiting exceptionally good behavior, not by whining about people mistaking them for one of the fringe elements in the group that they choose to associate with.  It's the responsibility of those who choose to continue wearing the MAGA cap/using the term to reclaim the positive meaning of MAGA if there is one.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #313 on: February 01, 2019, 10:01:38 AM »
Indeed I am proposing we, especially the Progressives, need to re-evaluate our understanding of the MAGA and Alt-right crowd. Instead of labelling them all racists and Nazis (like they had done with Sandman) simply because the fringe of this crowd are indeed white supremacists.

You seem stuck on this particular straw man, so I just wanted to point out that Sandmann wasn't labeled a racist or Nazi solely because he wore a MAGA hat.  He also engaged in questionable activity, activity that others could reasonably interpret as racist within a certain context.  I think if someone wants to wear a MAGA hat for reasons other than racism then it's their responsibility to avoid engaging in such questionable activity or else accept that they may be mistakenly labeled a racist.  If someone wants to redeem a term/symbol that has been co-opted by a fringe group then they should do it by using the term/symbol while exhibiting exceptionally good behavior, not by whining about people mistaking them for one of the fringe elements in the group that they choose to associate with.  It's the responsibility of those who choose to continue wearing the MAGA cap/using the term to reclaim the positive meaning of MAGA if there is one.

What did Sandman do that was racist?  Not his classmates, just him?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 10:04:57 AM by Midwest »

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #314 on: February 01, 2019, 10:04:55 AM »
Indeed I am proposing we, especially the Progressives, need to re-evaluate our understanding of the MAGA and Alt-right crowd. Instead of labelling them all racists and Nazis (like they had done with Sandman) simply because the fringe of this crowd are indeed white supremacists.

You seem stuck on this particular straw man, so I just wanted to point out that Sandmann wasn't labeled a racist or Nazi solely because he wore a MAGA hat.  He also engaged in questionable activity, activity that others could reasonably interpret as racist within a certain context.  I think if someone wants to wear a MAGA hat for reasons other than racism then it's their responsibility to avoid engaging in such questionable activity or else accept that they may be mistakenly labeled a racist.  If someone wants to redeem a term/symbol that has been co-opted by a fringe group then they should do it by using the term/symbol while exhibiting exceptionally good behavior, not by whining about people mistaking them for one of the fringe elements in the group that they choose to associate with.  It's the responsibility of those who choose to continue wearing the MAGA cap/using the term to reclaim the positive meaning of MAGA if there is one.

What did Sandman do that was racist?  No his classmates, just him?

Why would you ask me that?  I didn't say that he did anything that was racist.

Midwest

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #315 on: February 01, 2019, 10:06:19 AM »
Indeed I am proposing we, especially the Progressives, need to re-evaluate our understanding of the MAGA and Alt-right crowd. Instead of labelling them all racists and Nazis (like they had done with Sandman) simply because the fringe of this crowd are indeed white supremacists.

You seem stuck on this particular straw man, so I just wanted to point out that Sandmann wasn't labeled a racist or Nazi solely because he wore a MAGA hat. He also engaged in questionable activity, activity that others could reasonably interpret as racist within a certain context.  I think if someone wants to wear a MAGA hat for reasons other than racism then it's their responsibility to avoid engaging in such questionable activity or else accept that they may be mistakenly labeled a racist.  If someone wants to redeem a term/symbol that has been co-opted by a fringe group then they should do it by using the term/symbol while exhibiting exceptionally good behavior, not by whining about people mistaking them for one of the fringe elements in the group that they choose to associate with.  It's the responsibility of those who choose to continue wearing the MAGA cap/using the term to reclaim the positive meaning of MAGA if there is one.

What did Sandman do that was racist?  No his classmates, just him?

Why would you ask me that?  I didn't say that he did anything that was racist.

Am I misinterpreting the bolded?  It was a genuine question, not a gotcha.

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #316 on: February 01, 2019, 10:23:49 AM »
Indeed I am proposing we, especially the Progressives, need to re-evaluate our understanding of the MAGA and Alt-right crowd. Instead of labelling them all racists and Nazis (like they had done with Sandman) simply because the fringe of this crowd are indeed white supremacists.

You seem stuck on this particular straw man, so I just wanted to point out that Sandmann wasn't labeled a racist or Nazi solely because he wore a MAGA hat. He also engaged in questionable activity, activity that others could reasonably interpret as racist within a certain context.  I think if someone wants to wear a MAGA hat for reasons other than racism then it's their responsibility to avoid engaging in such questionable activity or else accept that they may be mistakenly labeled a racist.  If someone wants to redeem a term/symbol that has been co-opted by a fringe group then they should do it by using the term/symbol while exhibiting exceptionally good behavior, not by whining about people mistaking them for one of the fringe elements in the group that they choose to associate with.  It's the responsibility of those who choose to continue wearing the MAGA cap/using the term to reclaim the positive meaning of MAGA if there is one.

What did Sandman do that was racist?  No his classmates, just him?

Why would you ask me that?  I didn't say that he did anything that was racist.

Am I misinterpreting the bolded?  It was a genuine question, not a gotcha.

Seems like it... 

I specifically said "activity that others could reasonably interpret as racist within a certain context."  I'm not interested in arguing over whether the actions were or were not ultimately racist, but I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret them as racist in the limited context that was initially given.

anisotropy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #317 on: February 01, 2019, 12:32:17 PM »
MrD,

We can certainly debate if Murphy's twitter data is representative of the MAGA/alt-right population. But it is one of the only "quantitative" analysis I have seen done by someone on the Left that uses empirical evidence to determine if this specific group is as racist as most claim. And yes, this was essentially inference on top of inference, but if you are aware of better empirical studies that are quantitative in nature, please alert me and I will give it a read. But in the absence of such studies, my opinion stands.

A key strength of studies like this is we can simply critique the data and the method on its own merit so we are not necessarily constrained by our ideology and prior beliefs.

Quote
I don't know that the majority of people feel that all MAGA supporters are white supremacists

Seems plentiful enough in this thread alone don't you think. It is clear to me, and I hope you as well, that majority of the Left (perhaps only progressives) see most MAGA supporters as white supremacists, which is how the Sandman fiasco happened and why I decided to enter the discussion here. Recall many forum members said MAGA hat is a symbol of hate and racism, and that is something I vehemently disagree with because it simply does not have empirical basis.

Quote
It is still quite possible that the MAGA crowd has emboldened and allowed the violence which is overwhelmingly coming from the right

Now let's talk about violence perpetrated by the Right after Trump got in. First Bowers. I am sure you've heard people on the Right claim the Left have all betrayed America. Are you saying the Right had at one point felt the Left supported them? Betrayal is simply a word to convey disgust on behaviors you do not agree with.

The increase of political violence likely has multiple factors and it is something poli sci people worked on to decipher for many decades. To attribute the rise of violence all to Trump and MAGA is merely a similar assertion on how MAGA hats are a symbol of hate and racism because of one's perspective. Violence is a complicated thing. Murphy wrote on this subject as well: "Liberal pacification" "Inequality and the pacification of militant protests".

You can also read Peter Turkin's (he's a little weird) many articles on political-related violence on a long term scale. We can draw a comparison between now and the 60s-70s where political violence was much higher.

Society was/is greatly polarized, is it fair we blame it all on Trump and MAGA?
Wealth inequality (which is known to incite violence) was/is very high, is it fair we blame it all on Trump and MAGA?
Mainstream Media was/is overwhelmingly biased to one side (it was conservative back then but very progressive today), is it fair we blame it all on Trump and MAGA?

I think on the big picture scale what is happening is that the social movement that began in occupy wall-st is finally manifesting itself as extreme polarization of the society and no productive public discourse is being conducted so people are looking for other avenues of venting their anger. Which unfortunately leads to violence.

Simply look at the old threads on this forum alone, count the number of members that were/are conservative or moderates. The number kept dropping not because they've turned liberal, rather they have been radicalized buy the constant "aggression".

For every violent crime three factors must be met: Motivation, Opportunity, and Rationalization. I am saying the rationalization and motivation factors have gone way up, and it has been going up since 2011 (slide 10), which spiked in 2015, before Trump and MAGA.

When Trump was first elected, I had falsely believed that Trump was the cure since he would do great harm to his own base and destroy them for us. I now see how stupid and naïve I was. What the Left ended up embracing to defeat Trump is something far worse. It is racism, Marxism, sexism, religion all wrapped in secular scholarly clothes.

Farrakhan for example, is widely known as an anti-Semite. Notice few in the media would refer to him simply as a racist? Why? Because "Racist" is now a term reserved mostly for the Alt-Right and MAGA crowd, "Racism" is now by their definition impossible against Whites, Jews, and Asians. Racist is also a term now synonymous to Nazis, but not anti-Semites. Any reasonable person should be able to see it and detect something fundamentally wrong with this mentality.

Quote
for some reason the vast majority of the extreme right wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the MAGA supporters,

The vast majority of the extreme left wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the academia and mainstream media to carry out the dehumanization process against Whites, Jews, and Asians. The way the Left is redefining all these Trojan Horse words is leaving "loopholes" to be exploited later. Increasingly people are buying into the idea that a Black or Latino could not be racist against Whites, Jews, and Asians, this is dehumanization in process. And you wonder why I am particularly worried about the ideology.


JLee

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #318 on: February 01, 2019, 01:26:53 PM »
MrD,

We can certainly debate if Murphy's twitter data is representative of the MAGA/alt-right population. But it is one of the only "quantitative" analysis I have seen done by someone on the Left that uses empirical evidence to determine if this specific group is as racist as most claim. And yes, this was essentially inference on top of inference, but if you are aware of better empirical studies that are quantitative in nature, please alert me and I will give it a read. But in the absence of such studies, my opinion stands.

Given the empirical information provided earlier in this thread - namely this, this, and this, has your opinion below changed to reflect the actual data?

Quote from: anistrophy
The primary threat we face today is not from the fringe right, but from the left where the radicals have taken over, instilling policies based on unfalsifiable claims from their race/gender/intersectional theories. That is my opinion.

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #319 on: February 01, 2019, 01:34:49 PM »
MrD
The vast majority of the extreme left wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the academia and mainstream media to carry out the dehumanization process against Whites, Jews, and Asians. The way the Left is redefining all these Trojan Horse words is leaving "loopholes" to be exploited later. Increasingly people are buying into the idea that a Black or Latino could not be racist against Whites, Jews, and Asians, this is dehumanization in process. And you wonder why I am particularly worried about the ideology.

You can worry all you want. A magazine demonstrating some piss poor peer review to let a paper slip through where part of it resembled a part of Mein Kampf isn't even on my radar of things to worry about. Again these mysterious "fem-Nazis" are responsible for 0 actual deaths. Compare and contrast that to actual Nazis and they are on different sides of the universe. Dehumanization is mainstream on the right (even the use of words "illegals" constitutes dehumanization). Dehumanization on the far left is really tough to find. And in some cases you are really reaching to try and find it.  Good luck with that. 

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #320 on: February 01, 2019, 01:43:20 PM »
MrD
The vast majority of the extreme left wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the academia and mainstream media to carry out the dehumanization process against Whites, Jews, and Asians. The way the Left is redefining all these Trojan Horse words is leaving "loopholes" to be exploited later. Increasingly people are buying into the idea that a Black or Latino could not be racist against Whites, Jews, and Asians, this is dehumanization in process. And you wonder why I am particularly worried about the ideology.

You can worry all you want. A magazine demonstrating some piss poor peer review to let a paper slip through where part of it resembled a part of Mein Kampf isn't even on my radar of things to worry about. Again these mysterious "fem-Nazis" are responsible for 0 actual deaths. Compare and contrast that to actual Nazis and they are on different sides of the universe. Dehumanization is mainstream on the right (even the use of words "illegals" constitutes dehumanization). Dehumanization on the far left is really tough to find. And in some cases you are really reaching to try and find it. Good luck with that.

And at some point, when one is pretending so desperately that something is there when it kinda isn't... and at the same time trying really hard to downplay something that's really present as though it's not... one gets to the point of wading dangerously close to racism apologist territory.

shenlong55

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #321 on: February 01, 2019, 01:46:54 PM »
Seems plentiful enough in this thread alone don't you think. It is clear to me, and I hope you as well, that majority of the Left (perhaps only progressives) see most MAGA supporters as white supremacists, which is how the Sandman fiasco happened and why I decided to enter the discussion here. Recall many forum members said MAGA hat is a symbol of hate and racism, and that is something I vehemently disagree with because it simply does not have empirical basis.

These two things are not equivalent...

anisotropy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #322 on: February 01, 2019, 01:47:17 PM »
MrD
The vast majority of the extreme left wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the academia and mainstream media to carry out the dehumanization process against Whites, Jews, and Asians. The way the Left is redefining all these Trojan Horse words is leaving "loopholes" to be exploited later. Increasingly people are buying into the idea that a Black or Latino could not be racist against Whites, Jews, and Asians, this is dehumanization in process. And you wonder why I am particularly worried about the ideology.

You can worry all you want. A magazine demonstrating some piss poor peer review to let a paper slip through where part of it resembled a part of Mein Kampf isn't even on my radar of things to worry about. Again these mysterious "fem-Nazis" are responsible for 0 actual deaths. Compare and contrast that to actual Nazis and they are on different sides of the universe. Dehumanization is mainstream on the right (even the use of words "illegals" constitutes dehumanization). Dehumanization on the far left is really tough to find. And in some cases you are really reaching to try and find it.  Good luck with that.

Sokal Squared was more than just "a magazine". It demonstrated a systematic failure much like Trumpism's rise in power. Intentionally broken papers get published simply because they fit the ideological tilt, in the areas which are now the basis of policies being implemented.

Much of these studies have little substance and are made up of pretend-knowledge. Yes I am afraid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVk9a5Jcd1k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk

partgypsy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #323 on: February 01, 2019, 02:30:04 PM »
"Simply look at the old threads on this forum alone, count the number of members that were/are conservative or moderates. The number kept dropping not because they've turned liberal, rather they have been radicalized buy the constant "aggression"."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE8hO79bsOc

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #324 on: February 01, 2019, 02:53:07 PM »
"Simply look at the old threads on this forum alone, count the number of members that were/are conservative or moderates. The number kept dropping not because they've turned liberal, rather they have been radicalized buy the constant "aggression"."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE8hO79bsOc

Oh I missed this doozy. Yeah it's probably not because they were banned for trolling (even though many were). Blame it on the liberal "aggressor." Nice straw-man!

MrDelane

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #325 on: February 01, 2019, 02:59:45 PM »
MrD,

We can certainly debate if Murphy's twitter data is representative of the MAGA/alt-right population. But it is one of the only "quantitative" analysis I have seen done by someone on the Left that uses empirical evidence to determine if this specific group is as racist as most claim. And yes, this was essentially inference on top of inference, but if you are aware of better empirical studies that are quantitative in nature, please alert me and I will give it a read. But in the absence of such studies, my opinion stands.

Honestly I think Murphy's article is irrelevant because I am happy to simply assume that the majority of MAGA supporters are not on the extreme right.  I'll simply grant that for the sake of argument, as I mentioned earlier.  That said, the response to not having confident data should not simply be 'my opinion stands,' it should be 'we don't know.'

But, like I said, I'm happy to accept for the sake of argument that the majority of MAGA supporters are not on the extreme right.
I don't find that to be a controversial idea.

Quote
Quote
I don't know that the majority of people feel that all MAGA supporters are white supremacists

Seems plentiful enough in this thread alone don't you think. It is clear to me, and I hope you as well, that majority of the Left (perhaps only progressives) see most MAGA supporters as white supremacists, which is how the Sandman fiasco happened and why I decided to enter the discussion here. Recall many forum members said MAGA hat is a symbol of hate and racism, and that is something I vehemently disagree with because it simply does not have empirical basis.

There are two different issues here.
For example, I do not believe that all people who fly the confederate flag are white supremacists.
However, I don't find it rationally incompatible to simultaneously believe that the confederate flag is a symbol of 'hate and racism' (I don't know that I would actually use those words myself, but I'm using them to prove a point).

You seem very drawn to hyperbole and keep using words like "all" or "none," when the world is most obviously not that black and white (and I don't believe you see it as black and white, but you seem to want to strawman the left into these hyperbolic categories).  At least, that is how it reads... or, I should say, how I am reading it.

Quote
Quote
It is still quite possible that the MAGA crowd has emboldened and allowed the violence which is overwhelmingly coming from the right

Now let's talk about violence perpetrated by the Right after Trump got in. First Bowers. I am sure you've heard people on the Right claim the Left have all betrayed America. Are you saying the Right had at one point felt the Left supported them? Betrayal is simply a word to convey disgust on behaviors you do not agree with.

No I would not agree with your statement, but the structure of your example is fundamentally different from my Bowers comment.
In your example I would agree with the idea that the Right had at one point felt that the left at least supported America (the thing which they perceive has been betrayed). 

Much like, it seems, Bowers felt that Trump at one point supported the Alt-Right, and had eventually betrayed them.
Betrayal is not simply a word to convey disgust of behaviors.  Betrayal conveys a violation of trust or confidence.
Betrayal can only occur where there was once the perception of loyalty.



Moving on - I just want to point out the hyperbole that I mentioned earlier.  Please try to put yourself in my shoes to see how it reads.  If I somehow gave you the impression that I was condemning ALL people on the right, then I have not done a good job of communicating - but the following reads like a textbook strawman to me:

Quote
Society was/is greatly polarized, is it fair we blame it all on Trump and MAGA?
Wealth inequality (which is known to incite violence) was/is very high, is it fair we blame it all on Trump and MAGA?
Mainstream Media was/is overwhelmingly biased to one side (it was conservative back then but very progressive today), is it fair we blame it all on Trump and MAGA?

The answer is... of course not, and I don't believe I ever argued for that.
But, because we cannot put ALL blame on a thing does not mean we can put NO blame on it.

We have both already agreed, the vast majority of violence is coming form the extreme right, and it is rising.
The extreme right has also shown it feels it has (or, in some cases, had) the support of Trump.
In the face of these facts it seems disingenuous to insinuate that because we cannot blame EVERYTHING on Trump then we cannot blame anything on Trump.


Quote
I think on the big picture scale what is happening is that the social movement that began in occupy wall-st is finally manifesting itself as extreme polarization of the society and no productive public discourse is being conducted so people are looking for other avenues of venting their anger. Which unfortunately leads to violence.

That's a strange outlook to me, given that the occupy wall street movement was driven by the left.... and if it led to no productive public discourse you would think it would be the left that would be left looking for 'other avenues of venting their anger.'  Yet the violence that you mentions is coming form the right.  You seem to be trying to connect the dots from a left wing protest to right wing violence.

So now the left wing ideology is to blame for the violence perpetrated by those they are protesting against?
I am sincerely confused, and I hope I misunderstood what you were saying there.


Quote
What the Left ended up embracing to defeat Trump is something far worse. It is racism, Marxism, sexism, religion all wrapped in secular scholarly clothes.
I genuinely don't see it.  And, unless I missed it, your examples have been limited to Farrakhan and this Sandman debacle.
I personally don't know anyone who takes Farrakhan seriously, or believes that he is anywhere near mainstream.
He is on the extreme left.  But, unlike the extreme right, the extreme left doesn't seem to be actually committing violent acts in general.

The slide you linked to said it itself:

"In terms of lethal violence, 2018 was dominated by
right-wing extremism. Every one of the 50 murders
documented by the COE was committed by a person
or persons with ties to right-wing extremism"



Quote
The vast majority of the extreme left wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the academia and mainstream media to carry out the dehumanization process against Whites, Jews, and Asians.
Okay, that is a claim.  That is not an argument.
I haven't seen any support for that belief. 
It shouldn't come as a surprise that I'm skeptical - but if you have data and argument to back it up, I am happy to consider it.


Quote
The way the Left is redefining all these Trojan Horse words is leaving "loopholes" to be exploited later. Increasingly people are buying into the idea that a Black or Latino could not be racist against Whites, Jews, and Asians, this is dehumanization in process. And you wonder why I am particularly worried about the ideology.

Again, you seem afraid of some nebulous future potential danger... yet somewhat unfazed by the actual violence and danger that is happening today.  As quoted above, 50 murders committed by a person with ties to right-wing extremism.

It honestly reads as if you feel an idea is more dangerous than people who have literally killed Americans.

I have a hard time believing that... so maybe I'm not understanding you correctly.  But if I am, I'm afraid we're at an impasse, because your position is simply irrational.  It seems akin to being afraid that the milk might be poisoned and drinking the drano instead.


EDITED TO ADD:
I see you posted some links while I was writing this reply - so my comment about your examples being limited to Farrakhan may have been premature.  I'll take a look when I have a moment.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 03:11:12 PM by MrDelane »

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #326 on: February 01, 2019, 03:00:41 PM »
MrD
The vast majority of the extreme left wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the academia and mainstream media to carry out the dehumanization process against Whites, Jews, and Asians. The way the Left is redefining all these Trojan Horse words is leaving "loopholes" to be exploited later. Increasingly people are buying into the idea that a Black or Latino could not be racist against Whites, Jews, and Asians, this is dehumanization in process. And you wonder why I am particularly worried about the ideology.

You can worry all you want. A magazine demonstrating some piss poor peer review to let a paper slip through where part of it resembled a part of Mein Kampf isn't even on my radar of things to worry about. Again these mysterious "fem-Nazis" are responsible for 0 actual deaths. Compare and contrast that to actual Nazis and they are on different sides of the universe. Dehumanization is mainstream on the right (even the use of words "illegals" constitutes dehumanization). Dehumanization on the far left is really tough to find. And in some cases you are really reaching to try and find it.  Good luck with that.

Sokal Squared was more than just "a magazine". It demonstrated a systematic failure much like Trumpism's rise in power. Intentionally broken papers get published simply because they fit the ideological tilt, in the areas which are now the basis of policies being implemented.

Much of these studies have little substance and are made up of pretend-knowledge. Yes I am afraid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVk9a5Jcd1k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk

No I get it. A handful of journals accepted some pretty outlandish papers (some were down right funny). And this to you constitutes worry above actual real life absolute atrocities current and historical. Again I'm not too worried about fem-Nazis, dog rape in Oregon parks, and sexist and imperialist "western astronomy." I suppose we all have our "vices." I just don't give those a second thought.

JLee

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #327 on: February 01, 2019, 03:48:23 PM »
MrD
The vast majority of the extreme left wing seem to feel they have the support and permission of the academia and mainstream media to carry out the dehumanization process against Whites, Jews, and Asians. The way the Left is redefining all these Trojan Horse words is leaving "loopholes" to be exploited later. Increasingly people are buying into the idea that a Black or Latino could not be racist against Whites, Jews, and Asians, this is dehumanization in process. And you wonder why I am particularly worried about the ideology.

You can worry all you want. A magazine demonstrating some piss poor peer review to let a paper slip through where part of it resembled a part of Mein Kampf isn't even on my radar of things to worry about. Again these mysterious "fem-Nazis" are responsible for 0 actual deaths. Compare and contrast that to actual Nazis and they are on different sides of the universe. Dehumanization is mainstream on the right (even the use of words "illegals" constitutes dehumanization). Dehumanization on the far left is really tough to find. And in some cases you are really reaching to try and find it.  Good luck with that.

Sokal Squared was more than just "a magazine". It demonstrated a systematic failure much like Trumpism's rise in power. Intentionally broken papers get published simply because they fit the ideological tilt, in the areas which are now the basis of policies being implemented.

Much of these studies have little substance and are made up of pretend-knowledge. Yes I am afraid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVk9a5Jcd1k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk

No I get it. A handful of journals accepted some pretty outlandish papers (some were down right funny). And this to you constitutes worry above actual real life absolute atrocities current and historical. Again I'm not too worried about fem-Nazis, dog rape in Oregon parks, and sexist and imperialist "western astronomy." I suppose we all have our "vices." I just don't give those a second thought.

Re: getting accepted by a journal--
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phxht9U2yZk

anisotropy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #328 on: February 01, 2019, 04:29:39 PM »
MrD,

Your criticism of me making the same mistake of "all or none" is valid. It is, however, difficult to convey ideas on a draft without such figurative phrases. And yes, I understand in our communication it is not All or None, but rather, well, let's say %. I apologize and will try to be more careful.

Suppose you are correct that Bowers' feeling of Trump betrayal. This leads to a strange interpretation of how Trumps' actions in Charlottesville incited and motivated Bowers:

Presumably Bowers feel betrayed because Trump did not side with nutcases like himself and other white supremacists. Bowers then became determined to go all in on innocent people. Does this mean it was caused by Trump not siding with white supremacists? If so, how much blame does MAGA really bear in this case?  If your argument is that Bowers was falsely led to believe Trump or MAGA provided a home to racists like him, then I would counter that it was the media that distributed such false image.

I want to clarify what I meant regarding OWS, because I dont think I conveyed my idea clearly:

I am very fazed with actual violence and danger that is happening today, the strong correlation of murders committed by a person with ties to right-wing extremism is undeniable. My point is, these number had long been rising since 2011, before Trump and MAGA, as your data shows (slide 10). In my opinion, this had its roots from back in OWS. You are right most of the protesters back then were Liberals, but there was no cohesive goal other than "we are the 99% no longer tolerates the top 1%", which was just a play on wealth/privilege.

Some among them became extremely right wing and white supremacist. Jason Kessler, for example, was a known Obama supporter. Johnny Benitez, yet another example.

"Benitez shared how he went from Occupy Wall Street protester and Bernie Sanders supporter to alt-right nationalist, claiming he was exiled from Occupy and called a bigot after he questioned the need for the group to support transgender people."

If we are being realistic here, OWS achieved very little, the inequality persisted, its underlying factions eventually splintered into different directions. Many moved on to various forms of identity politics to continue their misguided crusade against privilege/wealth, others went another direction and found a home in Trump's lap with the aid of media. What is common among them, is resentment, grieve, and a thirst for vengeance.

EDIT: Apparently someone already wrote about the link between OWS and Trump before the 2016 election. I was not aware of this article.

Quote
you feel an idea is more dangerous than people who have literally killed Americans.

I do, in the sense that we KNOW and almost universally denounce  and punish the nuts and murderers on the Right. Their powers are quite limited in comparison to the Left. Unfortunately, given the gun laws,  we are left vulnerable against mostly individuals. And again, I am not sure if MAGA is responsible or even half responsible for providing rationalization to these murderers. Using the Bowers as an example, he killed because he perceived Trump had betrayed "their cause", even though MAGA was clearly not what he was led to believe by the media.

Many are largely unaware of the same danger coming from the dominant Left now (obviously not all but you get what i mean), this is a systematic danger. As the dehumanization process continues, we are in for a rough ride. Many Poli.Sci academics are recognizing this threat and are writing about it, you can read Murphy's "LIBERAL PACIFICATION AND THE PHENOMENOLOGY OF VIOLENCE", where

"We counter that the spread of liberal institutions does not necessarily decrease violence but transforms it".
"This type of phenomenological violence includes threats, coercion, intimidation and surveillance to restructure and sustain social and political relations. When this type of violence operates
effectively, it appears as though there is no violence; the violence is in the structuring of the prevailing order. While such an outcome may appear peaceful (in the sense of an absence of
direct and even indirect violence), it is, at best, a negative peace that operates through a violent and coercive reordering of society"

« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 05:45:57 PM by anisotropy »

MrDelane

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #329 on: February 01, 2019, 04:59:24 PM »
I just want to reply quickly to acknowledge your response so that you wouldn't think I was ducking out.  I have a couple of houseguests who are coming in for the weekend (in the next few minutes) and, I imagine, will take up the majority of the next two days. 

In case I'm unable to get back to this quickly, just know that I do intent to check out the links you provided as soon as I'm able.
Thank you for the interesting discussion so far.
 

anisotropy

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #330 on: February 01, 2019, 05:04:17 PM »
I just want to reply quickly to acknowledge your response so that you wouldn't think I was ducking out.  I have a couple of houseguests who are coming in for the weekend (in the next few minutes) and, I imagine, will take up the majority of the next two days. 

In case I'm unable to get back to this quickly, just know that I do intent to check out the links you provided as soon as I'm able.
Thank you for the interesting discussion so far.

No worries, always a pleasure conversing with you. Enjoy your weekend. ❤

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #331 on: February 01, 2019, 05:15:33 PM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.

palerider1858

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #332 on: February 01, 2019, 05:54:50 PM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.
"If ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk." It's common knowledge that many homosexuals support Trump. My world is Seattle immersion so I acknowledge I live in a bubble. No one gets frightened over clothing at restaurants here. Difference of opinion is common and celebrated. I don't know where you live Kris, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #333 on: February 01, 2019, 05:57:29 PM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.
"If ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk." It's common knowledge that many homosexuals support Trump. My world is Seattle immersion so I acknowledge I live in a bubble. No one gets frightened over clothing at restaurants here. Difference of opinion is common and celebrated. I don't know where you live Kris, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

I expected this response.

MasterStache

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #334 on: February 01, 2019, 06:14:25 PM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.
"If ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk." It's common knowledge that many homosexuals support Trump. My world is Seattle immersion so I acknowledge I live in a bubble. No one gets frightened over clothing at restaurants here. Difference of opinion is common and celebrated. I don't know where you live Kris, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

Is it?
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/record-lgbt-support-democrats-midterms-nbc-news-exit-poll-shows-n934211

Yes, that's mid-terms. Less than 15% of LGBT voters voted for Trump in the election. As to the few left that still do support Trump, it's been highlighted ad nauseam that there exist people that will in fact vote against their own self interest.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 06:26:33 PM by MasterStache »

OtherJen

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #335 on: February 01, 2019, 06:27:02 PM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.
"If ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk." It's common knowledge that many homosexuals support Trump. My world is Seattle immersion so I acknowledge I live in a bubble. No one gets frightened over clothing at restaurants here. Difference of opinion is common and celebrated. I don't know where you live Kris, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

Is it?
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/record-lgbt-support-democrats-midterms-nbc-news-exit-poll-shows-n934211

As to the few left that still do support Trump, it's been highlighted ad nauseam that there exist people that will in fact vote against their own self interest.

Yeah, I don't think "gays for Trump" is a thing outside of maybe small, delusional bubbles. My LGBTQ friends (and I'm a hobbyist musician, I have many) uniformly despise him and are afraid for their rights. One gay friend and I were morbidly joking recently about whether things in Trump's America are likely to be worse for him or for me (Mexican-American).

palerider1858

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #336 on: February 02, 2019, 10:45:12 PM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.
"If ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk." It's common knowledge that many homosexuals support Trump. My world is Seattle immersion so I acknowledge I live in a bubble. No one gets frightened over clothing at restaurants here. Difference of opinion is common and celebrated. I don't know where you live Kris, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

I expected this response.

As I counted on yours.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #337 on: February 03, 2019, 06:58:54 AM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.
"If ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk." It's common knowledge that many homosexuals support Trump. My world is Seattle immersion so I acknowledge I live in a bubble. No one gets frightened over clothing at restaurants here. Difference of opinion is common and celebrated. I don't know where you live Kris, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

I expected this response.

As I counted on yours.

May I ask, are you a woman or a member of any of the groups I mentioned above? And are you quite sure that “no one” in Seattle would feel this way if they were, say, to travel out of that self-described bubble into someplace where they might actually encounter a situation like I described above? Have you asked any POC, gay, or trans people what it would be like for them in such a situation?

palerider1858

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #338 on: February 03, 2019, 09:25:17 AM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.
"If ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk." It's common knowledge that many homosexuals support Trump. My world is Seattle immersion so I acknowledge I live in a bubble. No one gets frightened over clothing at restaurants here. Difference of opinion is common and celebrated. I don't know where you live Kris, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

I expected this response.

As I counted on yours.

May I ask, are you a woman or a member of any of the groups I mentioned above? And are you quite sure that “no one” in Seattle would feel this way if they were, say, to travel out of that self-described bubble into someplace where they might actually encounter a situation like I described above? Have you asked any POC, gay, or trans people what it would be like for them in such a situation?
I am a man and a member of the Pink Pistols http://www.pinkpistols.org/. My bubble is self reliant and strong in the LGBTQ community. We are not as rare as people think. I don't know what it would be like outside of the PNW but I can assure you we discuss all these issues and celebrate open thought.

Kris

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Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #339 on: February 03, 2019, 09:30:33 AM »
Responding to an event that’s been in current events today:

If I went into a restaurant and sat down for a meal, and a few minutes later a couple of guys in MAGA hats came in and sat down at the table next to me, I would be frightened. If I were a POC, I would probably leave, out of fear of being hurt. If I were visibly trans, or if I were gay and there with someone who was visibly my partner, I would leave immediately.
"If ifs were fifths we'd all be drunk." It's common knowledge that many homosexuals support Trump. My world is Seattle immersion so I acknowledge I live in a bubble. No one gets frightened over clothing at restaurants here. Difference of opinion is common and celebrated. I don't know where you live Kris, but it doesn't sound pleasant.

I expected this response.

As I counted on yours.

May I ask, are you a woman or a member of any of the groups I mentioned above? And are you quite sure that “no one” in Seattle would feel this way if they were, say, to travel out of that self-described bubble into someplace where they might actually encounter a situation like I described above? Have you asked any POC, gay, or trans people what it would be like for them in such a situation?
I am a man and a member of the Pink Pistols http://www.pinkpistols.org/. My bubble is self reliant and strong in the LGBTQ community. We are not as rare as people think. I don't know what it would be like outside of the PNW but I can assure you we discuss all these issues and celebrate open thought.

Awesome. But I find it interesting that the raison d’etre of that organization seems to be gays arming themselves in part against perceived threats to them specifically because of their sexual orientation. Like, it says that explicitly in their “About” section.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 09:43:22 AM by Kris »