Author Topic: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?  (Read 18412 times)

Cool Friend

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 126
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #250 on: January 28, 2019, 07:18:28 AM »
I will accept the black mold in my apartment to be a symbol of deadly rot if and when it gives my newborn pneumonia and kills her.  Until that happens...

ministashy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 68
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #251 on: January 28, 2019, 08:20:32 PM »
EDIT: I want to reiterate my main point on Holocaust Memorial Day. In this incident, Sandman was vilified for no reason, at least not by any objective standard. MAGA hats is a symbol of hate to some people. This I fully understand, but do not project your own feelings to how everyone should think. As an individual, I will accept the hat to be a symbol of hate if and when their supporters carried out their version of "final solution" and murdered millions of minorities for no reason other than their race and gender and sexual orientation. Until that happens, take your religion and get out of my face.

I'm just going to leave this here for anistropy--https://twitter.com/auschwitzmuseum/status/1067175336184606720?lang=en

For those who don't do the twitter thing:  'When we look at Auschwitz we see the end of the process. It's important to remember that the Holocaust actually did not start from gas chambers. This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence.'

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3632
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #252 on: January 28, 2019, 08:46:09 PM »
EDIT: I want to reiterate my main point on Holocaust Memorial Day. In this incident, Sandman was vilified for no reason, at least not by any objective standard. MAGA hats is a symbol of hate to some people. This I fully understand, but do not project your own feelings to how everyone should think. As an individual, I will accept the hat to be a symbol of hate if and when their supporters carried out their version of "final solution" and murdered millions of minorities for no reason other than their race and gender and sexual orientation. Until that happens, take your religion and get out of my face.

I'm just going to leave this here for anistropy--https://twitter.com/auschwitzmuseum/status/1067175336184606720?lang=en

For those who don't do the twitter thing:  'When we look at Auschwitz we see the end of the process. It's important to remember that the Holocaust actually did not start from gas chambers. This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence.'

And it would be worth a hard look at yourself and asking yourself what role you would be playing in the process.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #253 on: January 29, 2019, 05:45:02 AM »
I will accept the black mold in my apartment to be a symbol of deadly rot if and when it gives my newborn pneumonia and kills her.  Until that happens...

Until that happens, let's keep sprinkling the mold with water to grow our fuzzy friend and Make the Apartment Great Again!

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #254 on: January 29, 2019, 12:01:39 PM »
and maybe it's just me, but even the "phrase" Make America Great Again" has so many assumptions and implications wrapped in. That American was once GREAT but now is definitely not. That when America was GREAT was in the past. People who are nostalgic for some mythic America that no longer exists but did at some time. Exactly what time was America great? Was it when we had slavery? when women couldn't vote? Before women worked outside the home? Before the equal rights act? Before Black Lives matter? to me, it seems to hint of a mourning of a time when everyone was equal, but some were, let's say a little more equal.

If the reference to MAGA is regarding economic prosperity, and the post war boom economy, there was a larger middle class and less of a financial divide before the most wealthy and the rest of us, both in corporate compensation for CEOS, safety nets such as social security and pensions, tax rate brackets, education costs, and checks and balances on wall street. 

I would be happy to go back to that past situation so that everyone shares in the economic success that the US is. Unfortunately all of Trump's agendas are exactly regressive of the economic reforms of the past where we were doing the best economically-wise for all its people.   

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3632
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #255 on: January 29, 2019, 12:22:45 PM »
MAGA hats is a symbol of hate to some people. This I fully understand, but do not project your own feelings to how everyone should think. As an individual, I will accept the hat to be a symbol of hate if and when their supporters carried out their version of "final solution" and murdered millions of minorities for no reason other than their race and gender and sexual orientation. Until that happens, take your religion and get out of my face.

Hm. So. Okay. Are you saying that this act wasn't an act of hate? Or that the MAGA thing is a pure coincidence in this case? Like, they could have just as easily been singing Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up," and the fact that they yelled "This is MAGA country" while beating and pouring bleach on this person has nothing to do at all with their actions?

I would really like to know. Really.

https://www.tmz.com/2019/01/29/empire-star-jussie-smollett-attacked-hospitalized-homophobic-hate-crime/?fbclid=IwAR2oDRaO6G6fQCK6oSWJ3IQIZC_n9BABtuG-xjVQvC7onkgWzo4r-5BxHTc
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 12:24:36 PM by Kris »

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 844
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #256 on: January 29, 2019, 12:28:51 PM »
and maybe it's just me, but even the "phrase" Make America Great Again" has so many assumptions and implications wrapped in. That American was once GREAT but now is definitely not. That when America was GREAT was in the past. People who are nostalgic for some mythic America that no longer exists but did at some time. Exactly what time was America great? Was it when we had slavery? when women couldn't vote? Before women worked outside the home? Before the equal rights act? Before Black Lives matter? to me, it seems to hint of a mourning of a time when everyone was equal, but some were, let's say a little more equal.

If the reference to MAGA is regarding economic prosperity, and the post war boom economy, there was a larger middle class and less of a financial divide before the most wealthy and the rest of us, both in corporate compensation for CEOS, safety nets such as social security and pensions, tax rate brackets, education costs, and checks and balances on wall street. 

I would be happy to go back to that past situation so that everyone shares in the economic success that the US is. Unfortunately all of Trump's agendas are exactly regressive of the economic reforms of the past where we were doing the best economically-wise for all its people.   

For me it was the post war boom that I always though MAGA referred to. There's some nuance to be had, about what policies help with that and which don't... but that discussion is beside the point right now. At any rate, I don't believe it's the racist part of that simpler, prosperous, idealized time period that people are thinking of when the say 'the good ol' days" or "Make America Great Again."

As a conservative, even I recognize that the Red MAGA hat has been co-opted as a symbol of hate. Even if it doesn't mean that for me, or for 95% of the people who may have worn it/do wear it, the meaning of that hat has become tainted, and I'd never wear one again.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #257 on: January 29, 2019, 12:56:49 PM »
and maybe it's just me, but even the "phrase" Make America Great Again" has so many assumptions and implications wrapped in. That American was once GREAT but now is definitely not. That when America was GREAT was in the past. People who are nostalgic for some mythic America that no longer exists but did at some time. Exactly what time was America great? Was it when we had slavery? when women couldn't vote? Before women worked outside the home? Before the equal rights act? Before Black Lives matter? to me, it seems to hint of a mourning of a time when everyone was equal, but some were, let's say a little more equal.

If the reference to MAGA is regarding economic prosperity, and the post war boom economy, there was a larger middle class and less of a financial divide before the most wealthy and the rest of us, both in corporate compensation for CEOS, safety nets such as social security and pensions, tax rate brackets, education costs, and checks and balances on wall street. 

I would be happy to go back to that past situation so that everyone shares in the economic success that the US is. Unfortunately all of Trump's agendas are exactly regressive of the economic reforms of the past where we were doing the best economically-wise for all its people.   

For me it was the post war boom that I always though MAGA referred to. There's some nuance to be had, about what policies help with that and which don't... but that discussion is beside the point right now. At any rate, I don't believe it's the racist part of that simpler, prosperous, idealized time period that people are thinking of when the say 'the good ol' days" or "Make America Great Again."

As a conservative, even I recognize that the Red MAGA hat has been co-opted as a symbol of hate. Even if it doesn't mean that for me, or for 95% of the people who may have worn it/do wear it, the meaning of that hat has become tainted, and I'd never wear one again.

Can't be the post war boom.  The people who yell MAGA don't support taxes.


ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 844
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #258 on: January 29, 2019, 02:11:21 PM »
and maybe it's just me, but even the "phrase" Make America Great Again" has so many assumptions and implications wrapped in. That American was once GREAT but now is definitely not. That when America was GREAT was in the past. People who are nostalgic for some mythic America that no longer exists but did at some time. Exactly what time was America great? Was it when we had slavery? when women couldn't vote? Before women worked outside the home? Before the equal rights act? Before Black Lives matter? to me, it seems to hint of a mourning of a time when everyone was equal, but some were, let's say a little more equal.

If the reference to MAGA is regarding economic prosperity, and the post war boom economy, there was a larger middle class and less of a financial divide before the most wealthy and the rest of us, both in corporate compensation for CEOS, safety nets such as social security and pensions, tax rate brackets, education costs, and checks and balances on wall street. 

I would be happy to go back to that past situation so that everyone shares in the economic success that the US is. Unfortunately all of Trump's agendas are exactly regressive of the economic reforms of the past where we were doing the best economically-wise for all its people.   

For me it was the post war boom that I always though MAGA referred to. There's some nuance to be had, about what policies help with that and which don't... but that discussion is beside the point right now. At any rate, I don't believe it's the racist part of that simpler, prosperous, idealized time period that people are thinking of when the say 'the good ol' days" or "Make America Great Again."

As a conservative, even I recognize that the Red MAGA hat has been co-opted as a symbol of hate. Even if it doesn't mean that for me, or for 95% of the people who may have worn it/do wear it, the meaning of that hat has become tainted, and I'd never wear one again.

Can't be the post war boom.  The people who yell MAGA don't support taxes.




That chart is deliberately misleading.

The top marginal rate doesn't tell you much. Only about 10,000 families were subjected to that marginal rate in the 1950s. As whole, the top 1% paid around 42% of their income as taxes in the 1950s, and they pay nearly 38% of it now. (and that's after the trump cuts.)

(Sure, they have a noticeable 5% advantage, but to think you can just change our current top bracket percentage from 37% to 90% and not have some immediate and severe consequences to the prosperity of this country, is beyond silly.) 

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5134
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #259 on: January 29, 2019, 02:18:14 PM »
What really sucks is the term "racist" or "racism" has been used so freely in bullshit political banter that it has lost it's meaning. It holds the same value as "you're mean" today. We all know whoever brings it up first is a virtue signalling weirdo.

You're not kidding.  That's true 99% of the time. Those on the left use the term as a common talking point to try to shut down those they don't agree with, when racism has nothing to do with the point being discussed.  It's easier for them to resort to insults and attacks than to try to come up with a rational argument.  When someone states that "making America great" is racist, that's absolutely ridiculous.  I'm not sure how any patriotic American could think such a thing for real, so it's the partisan B.S. or anti-American rhetoric talking.

...really? Let me remind you of your very own post where you accused someone (who did not mention race at all) of sounding racist:

Mark Robinson is a well know conspiracy theorist gun nut who rips on gays, spews anti-Muslim rehetoric. Any one who disagrees with him is a Marxist.

The way you are down-talking this black man makes you sound racist.

The point I was trying to make was that MAGA is a pro-American message that has nothing to do with racism.


Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3632
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #260 on: January 29, 2019, 02:22:05 PM »
and maybe it's just me, but even the "phrase" Make America Great Again" has so many assumptions and implications wrapped in. That American was once GREAT but now is definitely not. That when America was GREAT was in the past. People who are nostalgic for some mythic America that no longer exists but did at some time. Exactly what time was America great? Was it when we had slavery? when women couldn't vote? Before women worked outside the home? Before the equal rights act? Before Black Lives matter? to me, it seems to hint of a mourning of a time when everyone was equal, but some were, let's say a little more equal.

If the reference to MAGA is regarding economic prosperity, and the post war boom economy, there was a larger middle class and less of a financial divide before the most wealthy and the rest of us, both in corporate compensation for CEOS, safety nets such as social security and pensions, tax rate brackets, education costs, and checks and balances on wall street. 

I would be happy to go back to that past situation so that everyone shares in the economic success that the US is. Unfortunately all of Trump's agendas are exactly regressive of the economic reforms of the past where we were doing the best economically-wise for all its people.   

For me it was the post war boom that I always though MAGA referred to. There's some nuance to be had, about what policies help with that and which don't... but that discussion is beside the point right now. At any rate, I don't believe it's the racist part of that simpler, prosperous, idealized time period that people are thinking of when the say 'the good ol' days" or "Make America Great Again."

As a conservative, even I recognize that the Red MAGA hat has been co-opted as a symbol of hate. Even if it doesn't mean that for me, or for 95% of the people who may have worn it/do wear it, the meaning of that hat has become tainted, and I'd never wear one again.

Can't be the post war boom.  The people who yell MAGA don't support taxes.




That chart is deliberately misleading.

The top marginal rate doesn't tell you much. Only about 10,000 families were subjected to that marginal rate in the 1950s. As whole, the top 1% paid around 42% of their income as taxes in the 1950s, and they pay nearly 38% of it now. (and that's after the trump cuts.)

(Sure, they have a noticeable 5% advantage, but to think you can just change our current top bracket percentage from 37% to 90% and not have some immediate and severe consequences to the prosperity of this country, is beyond silly.)

How is that misleading? That's how marginal tax rates work. The only way this chart is misleading is if you don't understand how marginal tax rates work (or you think most people don't understand how they work) and therefore think this chart is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #261 on: January 29, 2019, 02:31:45 PM »
and maybe it's just me, but even the "phrase" Make America Great Again" has so many assumptions and implications wrapped in. That American was once GREAT but now is definitely not. That when America was GREAT was in the past. People who are nostalgic for some mythic America that no longer exists but did at some time. Exactly what time was America great? Was it when we had slavery? when women couldn't vote? Before women worked outside the home? Before the equal rights act? Before Black Lives matter? to me, it seems to hint of a mourning of a time when everyone was equal, but some were, let's say a little more equal.

If the reference to MAGA is regarding economic prosperity, and the post war boom economy, there was a larger middle class and less of a financial divide before the most wealthy and the rest of us, both in corporate compensation for CEOS, safety nets such as social security and pensions, tax rate brackets, education costs, and checks and balances on wall street. 

I would be happy to go back to that past situation so that everyone shares in the economic success that the US is. Unfortunately all of Trump's agendas are exactly regressive of the economic reforms of the past where we were doing the best economically-wise for all its people.   

For me it was the post war boom that I always though MAGA referred to. There's some nuance to be had, about what policies help with that and which don't... but that discussion is beside the point right now. At any rate, I don't believe it's the racist part of that simpler, prosperous, idealized time period that people are thinking of when the say 'the good ol' days" or "Make America Great Again."

As a conservative, even I recognize that the Red MAGA hat has been co-opted as a symbol of hate. Even if it doesn't mean that for me, or for 95% of the people who may have worn it/do wear it, the meaning of that hat has become tainted, and I'd never wear one again.

Can't be the post war boom.  The people who yell MAGA don't support taxes.




That chart is deliberately misleading.

The top marginal rate doesn't tell you much. Only about 10,000 families were subjected to that marginal rate in the 1950s. As whole, the top 1% paid around 42% of their income as taxes in the 1950s, and they pay nearly 38% of it now. (and that's after the trump cuts.)



Your argument is that there aren't very many few ultra rich, so what we tax them doesn't matter?  I disagree.

Wealth distribution isn't a straight line.  The top 1% controls 35% of all wealth in the US, but the top .1% controls the largest share of that.  What we tax the richest absolutely matters.



(Sure, they have a noticeable 5% advantage, but to think you can just change our current top bracket percentage from 37% to 90% and not have some immediate and severe consequences to the prosperity of this country, is beyond silly.)

I didn't say that we should change the top bracket percentage at all.  Just pointed out that during one of the most prosperous times in US history, the top bracket was an awful lot higher than it is today.  If lowering taxes for the ultra rich (as we have done) is better for society, why isn't this leading to higher prosperity?


dustinst22

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 673
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #263 on: January 29, 2019, 11:43:09 PM »
Just pointed out that during one of the most prosperous times in US history, the top bracket was an awful lot higher than it is today. 

Interestingly, the effective tax rate on the rich during that period was actually lower than it is now.  There was a good article recently in the WSJ covering this.  There were far many more loopholes the wealthy could take advantage of during that period which were finally eliminated.  What should really be looked at is the effective tax rates paid by the wealthy (after all deductions and loopholes, etc), not the marginal tax rates which don't tell you much.  Yes Reagan lowered the marginal rates, but he also removed much of the loopholes during that time. 

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 844
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #264 on: January 30, 2019, 08:25:15 AM »


That chart is deliberately misleading.

The top marginal rate doesn't tell you much. Only about 10,000 families were subjected to that marginal rate in the 1950s. As whole, the top 1% paid around 42% of their income as taxes in the 1950s, and they pay nearly 38% of it now. (and that's after the trump cuts.)

(Sure, they have a noticeable 5% advantage, but to think you can just change our current top bracket percentage from 37% to 90% and not have some immediate and severe consequences to the prosperity of this country, is beyond silly.)

How is that misleading? That's how marginal tax rates work. The only way this chart is misleading is if you don't understand how marginal tax rates work (or you think most people don't understand how they work) and therefore think this chart is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

It is misleading in the context of this discussion because taking on tiny facet of a tax system - the top marginal% - and comparing them is DELIBERATELY misleading people to think that taxes were massively higher in those days.  In fact, the effective tax rate was a little higher than now, but not much higher.
Also I don't think most people really understand marginal tax rates.  See the "overheard at work thread; "I won't work overtime because taxes take it all!" edition.

Quote
our argument is that there aren't very many few ultra rich, so what we tax them doesn't matter?  I disagree.

Wealth distribution isn't a straight line.  The top 1% controls 35% of all wealth in the US, but the top .1% controls the largest share of that.  What we tax the richest absolutely matters.

My argument is that the top marginal % of the taxrate does not accurately portray the tax situation of that era... that the top 1% is being taxed almost as hard now as they were then, and therefore that tax% is irrelevant.

I also don't think being wealthy is a sin, so I'm not going to be in strong support of confiscatory tax rates for the top 1% either.


JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5134
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #265 on: January 30, 2019, 01:23:02 PM »


That chart is deliberately misleading.

The top marginal rate doesn't tell you much. Only about 10,000 families were subjected to that marginal rate in the 1950s. As whole, the top 1% paid around 42% of their income as taxes in the 1950s, and they pay nearly 38% of it now. (and that's after the trump cuts.)

(Sure, they have a noticeable 5% advantage, but to think you can just change our current top bracket percentage from 37% to 90% and not have some immediate and severe consequences to the prosperity of this country, is beyond silly.)

How is that misleading? That's how marginal tax rates work. The only way this chart is misleading is if you don't understand how marginal tax rates work (or you think most people don't understand how they work) and therefore think this chart is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

It is misleading in the context of this discussion because taking on tiny facet of a tax system - the top marginal% - and comparing them is DELIBERATELY misleading people to think that taxes were massively higher in those days.  In fact, the effective tax rate was a little higher than now, but not much higher.
Also I don't think most people really understand marginal tax rates.  See the "overheard at work thread; "I won't work overtime because taxes take it all!" edition.

Quote
our argument is that there aren't very many few ultra rich, so what we tax them doesn't matter?  I disagree.

Wealth distribution isn't a straight line.  The top 1% controls 35% of all wealth in the US, but the top .1% controls the largest share of that.  What we tax the richest absolutely matters.

My argument is that the top marginal % of the taxrate does not accurately portray the tax situation of that era... that the top 1% is being taxed almost as hard now as they were then, and therefore that tax% is irrelevant.

I also don't think being wealthy is a sin, so I'm not going to be in strong support of confiscatory tax rates for the top 1% either.

"Sin" or not, somehow it seems wrong that we have people dying from lack of health care while 0.1% of the population owns 90% of the wealth.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #266 on: January 30, 2019, 01:24:40 PM »
What exactly is your definition of a confiscatory tax?

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #267 on: January 31, 2019, 01:34:11 AM »
EDIT: I want to reiterate my main point on Holocaust Memorial Day. In this incident, Sandman was vilified for no reason, at least not by any objective standard. MAGA hats is a symbol of hate to some people. This I fully understand, but do not project your own feelings to how everyone should think. As an individual, I will accept the hat to be a symbol of hate if and when their supporters carried out their version of "final solution" and murdered millions of minorities for no reason other than their race and gender and sexual orientation. Until that happens, take your religion and get out of my face.

I'm just going to leave this here for anistropy--https://twitter.com/auschwitzmuseum/status/1067175336184606720?lang=en

For those who don't do the twitter thing:  'When we look at Auschwitz we see the end of the process. It's important to remember that the Holocaust actually did not start from gas chambers. This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence.'

You want to talk about the beginning of the process? Let's.

Who seems to be allied with most of the anti-semites these days? Who is in league with the person that referred to them publicly as "termites"?
Book burning? Oh we are way ahead these days, how about some pre-burning books?
Incriminating people based on race, gender, and sexual orientation?
Who are the main targets of legal exclusion (presumption of innocence) these days?
Who are the ones being denied "near-essential" services (visa, mc, etc)?
Dehumanisation? Have you been to an intersectional-anything rally?


"This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence."

Eerily familiar don't you think. The neo Auschwitz construction has already begun, at long last it finally got out of the schools and into our lives. You are supporting something you don't fully understand. Critical race theory and intersectional-anything are poison. They target people's immutable characteristics such as skin color (i dont like the word race because race doesnt exist biologically), sex, and gender. The social justice movement as it exists is one that privileges victimhood over recovery, accusation over conviction, reversal of fortune over actual equality. It is cloaking a mission antithetical to justice and civil rights.

Like Nazis once did they assert people are essentially members from either desired or undesired groups and not individuals, basing their claims on unfalsifiable claims. One rarely sees experimental of field studies lending validity to Intersectional claims. Anecdotal 'lived experience' & supposition in fancy jargon are presented as facts beyond reproach. Whatever one's politics or 'lived experience', this fraud's unacceptable as scholarship or basis for policies and behaviors.

"Good ideas do not need lots of lies told about them in order to gain public acceptance"  Fighting racism is a good cause. It is a GREAT cause. It does not require us to believe things that are not true. And it cannot afford for us to believe things that aren't true.

"We are what we always were in Salem, but now the little crazy children are jangling the keys of the kingdom, and common vengeance writes the law" ---  Arthur Miller, The Crucible
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 01:35:58 AM by anisotropy »

ministashy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 68
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #268 on: January 31, 2019, 04:16:55 AM »
Wow.  Just ... wow. 

It continues to amaze me how willfully blind people can be.  Especially when you can look around in the real world and see the answers in front of your face.

Who is getting incarcerated more?
Who are being shot, beaten and otherwise abused by law enforcement more?
Who occupies a clear majority of almost every possible position of power and prestige in the U.S.?  In the world?
What gender and ethnicity (since apparently you don't like 'race') compose the majority of the 1 percenters?
Why have we never had an all-female House of Congress?  An all-female Supreme Court?  An all-POC Supreme Court?  Why is this concept so horrific that most people can't even consider it without crying out about 'discrimination!'  Why did it never bother them when it was the reverse?
How many powerful men's careers/lives have been 'ruined'--(and what is the definition of 'ruin'?  Lawsuits?  A public shaming of actions they freely took, so that they have to slink off to enjoy their millions in private?)--vs how many women's careers have been destroyed before they could ever begin? 
Why aren't the history books filled with the achievements of women and POC?  After all, they constitute far more than 50% of the population.  Surely they should have accomplished at least 50% of everything humankind has ever discovered or done?
How many great artists, scientists, philosophers, and other great minds were never allowed to contribute or flourish because they had the wrong genitals, the wrong skin color, the wrong religion, the wrong beliefs?

How exactly do you 'pre-burn' a book?  Do you burn it before it's published?  That doesn't work so well in the age of the internet.  The fascists and the neo-Nazis don't seem to have any problem getting their beliefs out there.

"This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence." 

Who exactly is in power right now to benefit from 'legal exclusion, dehumanisation and escalating violence?'  Cause when I look at the current composition of Congress, the Supreme Court, and the WH, I don't think it's women.  Or POC.  Or LGBTQA folks.

People-women, POCs, LGBTQA folks, trans folks and every kind of 'othered' minority--are finally standing up for their rights as equal human beings, demanding acknowledgement of the complexity of human existence--but certain people see that as a threat.  As 'poison'.  Gee, I wonder which people?  I wonder what they're so frightened of? (which they will never admit, of course)

I'll leave it there.  The answers are pretty obvious, after all, if you care to look.  Which of course, you don't. 

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #269 on: January 31, 2019, 07:16:38 AM »
You want to talk about the beginning of the process? Let's.

OK.

Who seems to be allied with most of the anti-semites these days? Who is in league with the person that referred to them publicly as "termites"?

Please tell me.

Book burning? Oh we are way ahead these days, how about some pre-burning books?

What is a pre-burning of books?

Incriminating people based on race, gender, and sexual orientation?

Is this a question?  It has a question mark, but is not structured as such.  Can you elaborate?

Who are the main targets of legal exclusion (presumption of innocence) these days?

Black people are measurably treated differently (worse) by law enforcement and courts.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614457/
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/5/14/17353040/racial-disparity-marijuana-arrests-new-york-city-nypd
https://eji.org/news/black-children-five-times-more-likely-than-whites-to-be-incarcerated

Numbers on this issue have been moving in positive directions for the past few years, but there is still a long way to go.

Who are the ones being denied "near-essential" services (visa, mc, etc)?

Due to relatively recent rule changes, the answer to arbitrary denial of visas would be non-whites:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/16/politics/visa-policy-changes/index.html

By MC, do you mean mastercard?  Could you expand upon what you're arguing here?

Dehumanisation? Have you been to an intersectional-anything rally?

No.  What's an interesctional anything rally?


"This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence."

Eerily familiar don't you think. The neo Auschwitz construction has already begun, at long last it finally got out of the schools and into our lives. You are supporting something you don't fully understand. Critical race theory and intersectional-anything are poison. They target people's immutable characteristics such as skin color (i dont like the word race because race doesnt exist biologically), sex, and gender. The social justice movement as it exists is one that privileges victimhood over recovery, accusation over conviction, reversal of fortune over actual equality. It is cloaking a mission antithetical to justice and civil rights.

I get that you're railing hard against the alleged injustices of the social justice movement here, but can you provide concrete examples of what you're talking about here?


Like Nazis once did they assert people are essentially members from either desired or undesired groups and not individuals, basing their claims on unfalsifiable claims. One rarely sees experimental of field studies lending validity to Intersectional claims. Anecdotal 'lived experience' & supposition in fancy jargon are presented as facts beyond reproach. Whatever one's politics or 'lived experience', this fraud's unacceptable as scholarship or basis for policies and behaviors.

"Good ideas do not need lots of lies told about them in order to gain public acceptance"  Fighting racism is a good cause. It is a GREAT cause. It does not require us to believe things that are not true. And it cannot afford for us to believe things that aren't true.

"We are what we always were in Salem, but now the little crazy children are jangling the keys of the kingdom, and common vengeance writes the law" ---  Arthur Miller, The Crucible

Hmm.

OK, so we're saying that a bunch of people are acting like nazis in this post.

What is your stance on the actions taken by self-identified actual nazis:

?

Y'know, the ones that Trump feels are good people.  Why do you suppose that the conservative right in America has so thoroughly embraced and overtly welcomed them?

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 844
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #270 on: January 31, 2019, 08:00:40 AM »
You want to talk about the beginning of the process? Let's.

OK.

Who seems to be allied with most of the anti-semites these days? Who is in league with the person that referred to them publicly as "termites"?

Please tell me.

Book burning? Oh we are way ahead these days, how about some pre-burning books?

What is a pre-burning of books?

Incriminating people based on race, gender, and sexual orientation?

Is this a question?  It has a question mark, but is not structured as such.  Can you elaborate?

Who are the main targets of legal exclusion (presumption of innocence) these days?

Black people are measurably treated differently (worse) by law enforcement and courts.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614457/
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/5/14/17353040/racial-disparity-marijuana-arrests-new-york-city-nypd
https://eji.org/news/black-children-five-times-more-likely-than-whites-to-be-incarcerated

Numbers on this issue have been moving in positive directions for the past few years, but there is still a long way to go.

Who are the ones being denied "near-essential" services (visa, mc, etc)?

Due to relatively recent rule changes, the answer to arbitrary denial of visas would be non-whites:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/16/politics/visa-policy-changes/index.html

By MC, do you mean mastercard?  Could you expand upon what you're arguing here?

Dehumanisation? Have you been to an intersectional-anything rally?

No.  What's an interesctional anything rally?


"This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence."

Eerily familiar don't you think. The neo Auschwitz construction has already begun, at long last it finally got out of the schools and into our lives. You are supporting something you don't fully understand. Critical race theory and intersectional-anything are poison. They target people's immutable characteristics such as skin color (i dont like the word race because race doesnt exist biologically), sex, and gender. The social justice movement as it exists is one that privileges victimhood over recovery, accusation over conviction, reversal of fortune over actual equality. It is cloaking a mission antithetical to justice and civil rights.

I get that you're railing hard against the alleged injustices of the social justice movement here, but can you provide concrete examples of what you're talking about here?


Like Nazis once did they assert people are essentially members from either desired or undesired groups and not individuals, basing their claims on unfalsifiable claims. One rarely sees experimental of field studies lending validity to Intersectional claims. Anecdotal 'lived experience' & supposition in fancy jargon are presented as facts beyond reproach. Whatever one's politics or 'lived experience', this fraud's unacceptable as scholarship or basis for policies and behaviors.

"Good ideas do not need lots of lies told about them in order to gain public acceptance"  Fighting racism is a good cause. It is a GREAT cause. It does not require us to believe things that are not true. And it cannot afford for us to believe things that aren't true.

"We are what we always were in Salem, but now the little crazy children are jangling the keys of the kingdom, and common vengeance writes the law" ---  Arthur Miller, The Crucible

Hmm.

OK, so we're saying that a bunch of people are acting like nazis in this post.

What is your stance on the actions taken by self-identified actual nazis:

?

Y'know, the ones that Trump feels are good people.  Why do you suppose that the conservative right in America has so thoroughly embraced and overtly welcomed them?

Trump speaks for himself. I don't know of any conservative in my life who has embraced and welcomed people who identify themselves as Nazis.

 I hope you realize that the left's enthusiasm for calling anyone to the right of hillary clinton a Nazi certainly makes it easy to shrug our shoulders when YOU call someone a Nazi... as they probably are no such thing.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #271 on: January 31, 2019, 08:25:15 AM »
Y'know, the ones that Trump feels are good people.  Why do you suppose that the conservative right in America has so thoroughly embraced and overtly welcomed them?

Trump speaks for himself. I don't know of any conservative in my life who has embraced and welcomed people who identify themselves as Nazis.

 I hope you realize that the left's enthusiasm for calling anyone to the right of hillary clinton a Nazi certainly makes it easy to shrug our shoulders when YOU call someone a Nazi... as they probably are no such thing.

I would agree with the first part of this. The lack of condemnation by public figures is a bit concerning but by no means is a majority of the conservative right embracing Nazis.

But then you committed the same kind of unfair generalization of the left. The idea that the left will call anyone on the right a Nazi is cultivated by conservative media. Outside of irresponsible media figures looking for attention, I don't know of anyone crying "Nazi" unless the person they're accusing is wearing the Nazi symbol.

dignam

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 153
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #272 on: January 31, 2019, 08:29:33 AM »
I would do exactly what I did the election and vote 3rd party again.  The two party system is broken beyond repair and they only care about either the extreme left or extreme right. 

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #273 on: January 31, 2019, 08:43:07 AM »
I would do exactly what I did the election and vote 3rd party again.  The two party system is broken beyond repair and they only care about either the extreme left or extreme right.

I've never understood why and how this "registered to vote as a democrat/republican/independent thing works?  Don't you just register to vote with the relevant authorities and let the parties work out who is who from their own records?

Telling the government what party you belong to and how you are likely to vote seems incredibly undemocratic to me - the UK got rid of that sort of knowledge at a public institution level a century or more ago.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #274 on: January 31, 2019, 09:33:23 AM »
You want to talk about the beginning of the process? Let's.

OK.

Who seems to be allied with most of the anti-semites these days? Who is in league with the person that referred to them publicly as "termites"?

Please tell me.

Book burning? Oh we are way ahead these days, how about some pre-burning books?

What is a pre-burning of books?

Incriminating people based on race, gender, and sexual orientation?

Is this a question?  It has a question mark, but is not structured as such.  Can you elaborate?

Who are the main targets of legal exclusion (presumption of innocence) these days?

Black people are measurably treated differently (worse) by law enforcement and courts.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614457/
https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/5/14/17353040/racial-disparity-marijuana-arrests-new-york-city-nypd
https://eji.org/news/black-children-five-times-more-likely-than-whites-to-be-incarcerated

Numbers on this issue have been moving in positive directions for the past few years, but there is still a long way to go.

Who are the ones being denied "near-essential" services (visa, mc, etc)?

Due to relatively recent rule changes, the answer to arbitrary denial of visas would be non-whites:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/16/politics/visa-policy-changes/index.html

By MC, do you mean mastercard?  Could you expand upon what you're arguing here?

Dehumanisation? Have you been to an intersectional-anything rally?

No.  What's an interesctional anything rally?


"This hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes & prejudice through legal exclusion, dehumanisation & escalating violence."

Eerily familiar don't you think. The neo Auschwitz construction has already begun, at long last it finally got out of the schools and into our lives. You are supporting something you don't fully understand. Critical race theory and intersectional-anything are poison. They target people's immutable characteristics such as skin color (i dont like the word race because race doesnt exist biologically), sex, and gender. The social justice movement as it exists is one that privileges victimhood over recovery, accusation over conviction, reversal of fortune over actual equality. It is cloaking a mission antithetical to justice and civil rights.

I get that you're railing hard against the alleged injustices of the social justice movement here, but can you provide concrete examples of what you're talking about here?


Like Nazis once did they assert people are essentially members from either desired or undesired groups and not individuals, basing their claims on unfalsifiable claims. One rarely sees experimental of field studies lending validity to Intersectional claims. Anecdotal 'lived experience' & supposition in fancy jargon are presented as facts beyond reproach. Whatever one's politics or 'lived experience', this fraud's unacceptable as scholarship or basis for policies and behaviors.

"Good ideas do not need lots of lies told about them in order to gain public acceptance"  Fighting racism is a good cause. It is a GREAT cause. It does not require us to believe things that are not true. And it cannot afford for us to believe things that aren't true.

"We are what we always were in Salem, but now the little crazy children are jangling the keys of the kingdom, and common vengeance writes the law" ---  Arthur Miller, The Crucible

Hmm.

OK, so we're saying that a bunch of people are acting like nazis in this post.

What is your stance on the actions taken by self-identified actual nazis:

?

Y'know, the ones that Trump feels are good people.  Why do you suppose that the conservative right in America has so thoroughly embraced and overtly welcomed them?

Trump speaks for himself. I don't know of any conservative in my life who has embraced and welcomed people who identify themselves as Nazis.

 I hope you realize that the left's enthusiasm for calling anyone to the right of hillary clinton a Nazi certainly makes it easy to shrug our shoulders when YOU call someone a Nazi... as they probably are no such thing.

Republican candidate for Illinois 3rd and self described nazi:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_J._Jones

Republican who got 16% of the votes from Republicans (and an endorsement from Sarah Palin,  Laura Ingram, and Breitbart) in Winsconsin's 1st, self described white supremacist:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Nehlen

Republican running in California's 11th, appears on neo-nazi podcasts:  https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2018/07/03/gop-congressional-candidate-california-has-been-appearing-neo-nazi-podcasts/220588

NC House of Representative candidate who said "God is a racist and a white supremacist":  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/russell-walker-candidate/  (To their credit, most NC republicans have done what they could to pull party support from him).



Trump speaks for himself maybe . . . but has had the full backing of the Republican party in just about everything he has done, including overtly racist actions.

OtherJen

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1007
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #275 on: January 31, 2019, 10:04:49 AM »
Also GOP Rep. Steve King, IA-4, from a NY Times interview earlier this month:

Quote
White nationalist, white supremacist, Western civilization — how did that language become offensive? Why did I sit in classes teaching me about the merits of our history and our civilization?

He has a long history of racism and association with Neo-Nazis. It is indeed curious that people are only starting to figure this out.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #276 on: January 31, 2019, 10:54:03 AM »
Guitar,

We had a very similar discussion 6 months ago, you brought up the same picture then. If you recall, my position then was that not everyone that marched or even affiliated with the Nazi flag were racist.

That is the same position I take now, not only regarding the Charlottesville protestors, but also regarding the Women's March. I think you and I can agree that just because some individuals (or even organizers/leaders) are affiliated with anti-Semitism, it doesn't automatically make the entire group of protestors racist or even Nazis.

What I do find concerning, is the minimum amount of effort required by one side, with the help of media, to brush it off and see it as insignificant. The conservatives has long ago drew a line in the ground and said white-supremacy is bad, very few conservatives these days would even consider white-supremacy a point with any merit. Yet on the end other of the scale we are seeing white-inferiority, an unfalsifiable claim, being touted as "serious scholarly" work and implemented into policies.

This "white-supremacy bad" mentality is so ingrained in our society today (and it is bad), when we see incidences of non-white groups being overtly racist, it gets a "no-biggy" reaction and we simply move on, looking for the next white perpetrator. Whereas when a white person, such as Sandman, was declared for having a "punch-able Nazi face" not for any racist acts or speeches he had done, but simply wearing a cap that nearly half of the country stood behind (~40% now).

My point is, if you point out an act where actual racism is committed by the classical definition of racism, I would denounce it with you. But if you want to simply say a cap is a symbol of hate with very subjective standards, my reply to you is that many things could be called a symbol of hate, heck, even the pink p*ssyhat could be viewed as such by your standards, given the affiliation with anti-Semites.

Pre-burning book is perhaps a bad term, but it refers to destroying books before they were published, as we are seeing in the YA genres these days, as social activists tend to read that genre in particular.

EDIT: Guitar, you quoted Justin Murphy in our last correspondence (regarding Free Speech). I thought it would be relevant he had also recently wrote a new article: "The Alt-Right is not all Right". Alt-right is almost synonymous with Fascism today, even thought "its origin was demonstrably not fascist or racist". This yet again shows the sneaky new clothing geared to redefine meanings of words by social activists, ie, Trojan Horse Words/Phrases.  In fact, he has also been accused of being alt-right, "not by any empirical demonstration but by presumption". I am assuming you quoted Murphy because you find him palatable and more agreeable, so don't take my word for it, read his.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 11:54:50 AM by anisotropy »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #277 on: January 31, 2019, 11:50:36 AM »
Guitar,

We had a very similar discussion 6 months ago, you brought up the same picture then. If you recall, my position then was that not everyone that marched or even affiliated with the Nazi flag were racist.

That is the same position I take now, not only regarding the Charlottesville protestors, but also regarding the Women's March. I think you and I can agree that just because some individuals (or even organizers/leaders) are affiliated with anti-Semitism, it doesn't automatically make the entire group of protestors racist or even Nazis.

What percentage of the people involved in the Women's March were anti-semitic?  Can you show me some pictures of the anti-semitic equivalents to the nazi flags in Charlottesville?  How many Jewish people died during the Women's March?

How are the two events comparable at all?


What I do find concerning, is the minimum amount of effort required by one side, with the help of media, to brush it off and see it as insignificant. The conservatives has long ago drew a line in the ground and said white-supremacy is bad, very few conservatives these days would even consider white-supremacy a point with any merit. Yet on the end other of the scale we are seeing white-inferiority, an unfalsifiable claim, being touted as "serious scholarly" work and implemented into policies.

6,600 Republicans voted for neo-Nazi Paul Nehlen in Wisconsin, and he had the endorsement of Sara Palin.  How does that square with your view that conservatives long ago drew a line in the sand and said that white-supremacy is bad?


This "white-supremacy bad" mentality is so ingrained in our society today (and it is bad), when we see incidences of non-white groups being overtly racist, it gets a "no-biggy" reaction and we simply move on, looking for the next white perpetrator. Whereas when a white person, such as Sandman, was declared for having a "punch-able Nazi face" not for any racist acts or speeches he had done, but simply wearing a cap that nearly half of the country stood behind (~40% now).

Wearing a symbol of racism is likely to get you treated as a racist in public.  You're free to wear what you want though, just as others are free to judge you for your choices.


My point is, if you point out an act where actual racism is committed by the classical definition of racism, I would denounce it with you. But if you want to simply say a cap is a symbol of hate with very subjective standards, my reply to you is that many things could be called a symbol of hate, heck, even the pink p*ssyhat could be viewed as such by your standards, given the affiliation with anti-Semites.

Can you describe some of the hate crimes committed by people wearing pink pussy hats?  They are quite easy to find by people wearing MAGA hats and people holding swastika flags.


Pre-burning book is perhaps a bad term, but it refers to destroying books before they were published, as we are seeing in the YA genres these days, as social activists tend to read that genre in particular.

The last major outcry over books that I recall was the religious based fervor over The Golden Compass and Harry Potter, but if you can point out some particular examples of this from the Women's March or similar, I will be quick to denounce the action in solidarity with you.

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #278 on: January 31, 2019, 11:57:08 AM »
Well, there's really not much to argue about then, if you don't even accept that Nazis are racist, is there? You do realize the textbook definition of Nazi is: pro tolitarian government, pro nationalist, pro Aryan (aka white) supremacy and anti-Semitic (as well as any person not considered Ayran) views. That's what a Nazi is. If you don't think that Nazis are racists, then you are using a different definition of racism than anyone else in the planet. And if someone is wearing a swastika it is entirely reasonable to believe that person is racist. Symbols of Nazis are used to intimidate and make fearful those who are jewish, non white, etc. Based on the actions of many people including physical attacks, MAGA hats also have a connotation while not quite as bad as swastikas, is getting there.

And a black person can certainly be prejudiced against white people. As a women might be prejudiced against men. It's only considered racism if that prejudice is based on a belief that for example white, males are INFERIOR to say blacks or women.
I wouldn't automatically consider inner city black youth as racist if they have a certain hostile response to seeing a white police officer. That is something different.

Racism usually refers to "a belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity".
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 12:09:06 PM by partgypsy »

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #279 on: January 31, 2019, 12:13:14 PM »
The two events are comparable because they both had leaders/organizers that affiliated with racism. Don't pretend that's not the case. As I've said time and time again, the two fringes of the society share many similarities, both authoritarian and racist to name a few.

A big difference is that the right (for the most part) does not believe in restricting expression of personal beliefs. Many conservatives take it to heart the old saying that "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". This is markedly absent on the Liberal side today, Classical Liberals used to believe that, but that's now a dying breed.  The fringe on the right are the ones advocating for violence, but it's all too common to find even mainstream lefties shouting punch Nazis or other violent acts against conservatives (dehumanization) as we all witnessed in the Sandman fiasco.

As i said many times regarding the cap being a symbol of hate, that is your opinion, I do not share your opinion. And in case you missed it from my edit:
Guitar, you quoted Justin Murphy in our last correspondence (regarding Free Speech). I thought it would be relevant he had also recently wrote a new article: "The Alt-Right is not all Right". Alt-right is almost synonymous with Fascism today, even thought "its origin was demonstrably not fascist or racist". This yet again shows the sneaky new clothing geared to redefine meanings of words by social activists, ie, Trojan Horse Words/Phrases.  In fact, he has also been accused of being alt-right, "not by any empirical demonstration but by presumption". I am assuming you quoted Murphy because you find him palatable and more agreeable, so don't take my word for it, read his.

partgypsy,

I never said Nazis are not racists, you are mistaken. I have no idea why you would assume that, Nazis are racist. But Sandman is not a Nazi by any stretch of imagination. And yes, that's the classic definition of racism, which i wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately today the word Racism has a new definition from the intersectionality crowd (another trojan horse term), which essentially claims that Racism is uni-directional, only perpetrated by privileged groups against under-privileged groups. They have wedded the notion of race (again, not real) with power/wealth, which is why by their definition, which is the one mainstream media adopted, Blacks can be prejudiced against Whites, but never racist. Same goes for Asians and Jews.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 12:18:00 PM by anisotropy »

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5134
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #280 on: January 31, 2019, 12:22:48 PM »
The two events are comparable because they both had leaders/organizers that affiliated with racism. Don't pretend that's not the case. As I've said time and time again, the two fringes of the society share many similarities, both authoritarian and racist to name a few.

A big difference is that the right (for the most part) does not believe in restricting expression of personal beliefs. Many conservatives take it to heart the old saying that "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". This is markedly absent on the Liberal side today, Classical Liberals used to believe that, but that's now a dying breed.  The fringe on the right are the ones advocating for violence, but it's all too common to find even mainstream lefties shouting punch Nazis or other violent acts against conservatives (dehumanization) as we all witnessed in the Sandman fiasco.

As i said many times regarding the cap being a symbol of hate, that is your opinion, I do not share your opinion. And in case you missed it from my edit:
Guitar, you quoted Justin Murphy in our last correspondence (regarding Free Speech). I thought it would be relevant he had also recently wrote a new article: "The Alt-Right is not all Right". Alt-right is almost synonymous with Fascism today, even thought "its origin was demonstrably not fascist or racist". This yet again shows the sneaky new clothing geared to redefine meanings of words by social activists, ie, Trojan Horse Words/Phrases.  In fact, he has also been accused of being alt-right, "not by any empirical demonstration but by presumption". I am assuming you quoted Murphy because you find him palatable and more agreeable, so don't take my word for it, read his.

partgypsy,

I never said Nazis are not racists, you are mistaken. I have no idea why you would assume that, Nazis are racist. But Sandman is not a Nazi by any stretch of imagination. And yes, that's the classic definition of racism, which i wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately today the word Racism has a new definition from the intersectionality crowd (another trojan horse term), which essentially claims that Racism is uni-directional, only perpetrated by privileged groups against under-privileged groups. They have wedded the notion of race (again, not real) with power/wealth, which is why by their definition, which is the one mainstream media adopted, Blacks can be prejudiced against Whites, but never racist. Same goes for Asians and Jews.

Wasn't there a thing about literally killing Nazis a while back? Pretty sure the whole world was involved. 

Anyway, I would like to point out that it sure looks like you just equated someone expressing a personal belief (i.e. that Nazis should be punched) with a member of the alt-right murdering someone.  That's a ridiculous stretch even for you.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 12:29:27 PM by JLee »

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #281 on: January 31, 2019, 12:31:52 PM »
The two events are comparable because they both had leaders/organizers that affiliated with racism. Don't pretend that's not the case. As I've said time and time again, the two fringes of the society share many similarities, both authoritarian and racist to name a few.

A big difference is that the right (for the most part) does not believe in restricting expression of personal beliefs. Many conservatives take it to heart the old saying that "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". This is markedly absent on the Liberal side today, Classical Liberals used to believe that, but that's now a dying breed.  The fringe on the right are the ones advocating for violence, but it's all too common to find even mainstream lefties shouting punch Nazis or other violent acts against conservatives (dehumanization) as we all witnessed in the Sandman fiasco.

As i said many times regarding the cap being a symbol of hate, that is your opinion, I do not share your opinion. And in case you missed it from my edit:
Guitar, you quoted Justin Murphy in our last correspondence (regarding Free Speech). I thought it would be relevant he had also recently wrote a new article: "The Alt-Right is not all Right". Alt-right is almost synonymous with Fascism today, even thought "its origin was demonstrably not fascist or racist". This yet again shows the sneaky new clothing geared to redefine meanings of words by social activists, ie, Trojan Horse Words/Phrases.  In fact, he has also been accused of being alt-right, "not by any empirical demonstration but by presumption". I am assuming you quoted Murphy because you find him palatable and more agreeable, so don't take my word for it, read his.

partgypsy,

I never said Nazis are not racists, you are mistaken. I have no idea why you would assume that, Nazis are racist. But Sandman is not a Nazi by any stretch of imagination. And yes, that's the classic definition of racism, which i wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately today the word Racism has a new definition from the intersectionality crowd (another trojan horse term), which essentially claims that Racism is uni-directional, only perpetrated by privileged groups against under-privileged groups. They have wedded the notion of race (again, not real) with power/wealth, which is why by their definition, which is the one mainstream media adopted, Blacks can be prejudiced against Whites, but never racist. Same goes for Asians and Jews.

Wasn't there a thing about literally killing Nazis a while back? Pretty sure the whole world was involved.

Ya, in case your are fuzzy with the chronological order of events: Nazis had a racist platform before they were even elected. Book burning happened in 1933, 1935 Nuremberg Laws, by 1939 many concentration camps were established, the War then broke out. When did the war break out?

To quote a marvel superhero: "Everytime someone tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die, everytime". The primary threat we face today is not from the fringe right, but from the left where the radicals have taken over, instilling policies based on unfalsifiable claims from their race/gender/intersectional theories. That is my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 12:37:39 PM by anisotropy »

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5134
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #282 on: January 31, 2019, 12:42:35 PM »
The two events are comparable because they both had leaders/organizers that affiliated with racism. Don't pretend that's not the case. As I've said time and time again, the two fringes of the society share many similarities, both authoritarian and racist to name a few.

A big difference is that the right (for the most part) does not believe in restricting expression of personal beliefs. Many conservatives take it to heart the old saying that "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". This is markedly absent on the Liberal side today, Classical Liberals used to believe that, but that's now a dying breed.  The fringe on the right are the ones advocating for violence, but it's all too common to find even mainstream lefties shouting punch Nazis or other violent acts against conservatives (dehumanization) as we all witnessed in the Sandman fiasco.

As i said many times regarding the cap being a symbol of hate, that is your opinion, I do not share your opinion. And in case you missed it from my edit:
Guitar, you quoted Justin Murphy in our last correspondence (regarding Free Speech). I thought it would be relevant he had also recently wrote a new article: "The Alt-Right is not all Right". Alt-right is almost synonymous with Fascism today, even thought "its origin was demonstrably not fascist or racist". This yet again shows the sneaky new clothing geared to redefine meanings of words by social activists, ie, Trojan Horse Words/Phrases.  In fact, he has also been accused of being alt-right, "not by any empirical demonstration but by presumption". I am assuming you quoted Murphy because you find him palatable and more agreeable, so don't take my word for it, read his.

partgypsy,

I never said Nazis are not racists, you are mistaken. I have no idea why you would assume that, Nazis are racist. But Sandman is not a Nazi by any stretch of imagination. And yes, that's the classic definition of racism, which i wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately today the word Racism has a new definition from the intersectionality crowd (another trojan horse term), which essentially claims that Racism is uni-directional, only perpetrated by privileged groups against under-privileged groups. They have wedded the notion of race (again, not real) with power/wealth, which is why by their definition, which is the one mainstream media adopted, Blacks can be prejudiced against Whites, but never racist. Same goes for Asians and Jews.

Wasn't there a thing about literally killing Nazis a while back? Pretty sure the whole world was involved.

Ya, in case your are fuzzy with the chronological order of events: Nazis had a racist platform before they were even elected. Book burning happened in 1933, 1935 Nuremberg Laws, by 1939 many concentration camps were established, the War then broke out. When did the war break out?

To quote a marvel superhero: "Everytime someone tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die, everytime". The primary threat we face today is not from the fringe right, but from the left where the radicals have taken over, instilling policies based on unfalsifiable claims from their race/gender/intersectional theories. That is my opinion.

Let's throw some data at that, shall we?

https://qz.com/1435885/data-shows-more-us-terror-attacks-by-right-wing-and-religious-extremists/

Quote
An analysis of the Global Terrorism Database by researchers at the University of Maryland published in 2017 shows a “sharp increase” in the share of attacks by right-wing extremists, from 6% in the 2000s to 35% in the 2010s. The share of attacks by religious extremists also increased, from 9% to 53% between the two decades.

Meanwhile, the share of attacks by left-wing terrorists and environmentalist extremists dropped from 64% in the 2000s to 12% in the 2010s.

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5134
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #283 on: January 31, 2019, 12:44:44 PM »
And another one, just because.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/rise-far-right-extremism-united-states

Quote
Right-wing extremism in the United States appears to be growing. The number of terrorist attacks by far-right perpetrators rose over the past decade, more than quadrupling between 2016 and 2017. The recent pipe bombs and the October 27, 2018, synagogue attack in Pittsburgh are symptomatic of this trend. U.S. federal and local agencies need to quickly double down to counter this threat. There has also been a rise in far-right attacks in Europe, jumping 43 percent between 2016 and 2017.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #284 on: January 31, 2019, 12:55:42 PM »
The two events are comparable because they both had leaders/organizers that affiliated with racism. Don't pretend that's not the case. As I've said time and time again, the two fringes of the society share many similarities, both authoritarian and racist to name a few.

Can I confirm my understanding that you are equating the Unite the Right, white supremacist Charlottesville rally, complete with Nazi regalia, anti-Semitic chants and the deliberate killing of an unarmed woman, with the 2017 Women's March?  That the 7 million or so women who worldwide marched peacefully in the Women's March are "a fringe of society"?  (I'm one of the women who marched and I've never before been called fringe, authoritarian or racist.  I'm not aware that any of the leaders of the Women's March ever have been called those things either, and I'm sure Trump would have found a way to do so if he could.)  Cheers.

Telecaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1492
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #285 on: January 31, 2019, 12:58:25 PM »
I've never understood why and how this "registered to vote as a democrat/republican/independent thing works?  Don't you just register to vote with the relevant authorities and let the parties work out who is who from their own records?

Telling the government what party you belong to and how you are likely to vote seems incredibly undemocratic to me - the UK got rid of that sort of knowledge at a public institution level a century or more ago.

It varies from state to state, but typically in primary elections you can only vote for candidates of your party, hence the need for party registration.  That's not true for general elections.   

And I agree, it is total bullshit.   The government has no right to know what my political leanings are.   I've never registered for a political party.   

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5134
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #286 on: January 31, 2019, 01:03:07 PM »
The more I re-read anistropy's last post, the more it looks like they're arguing that it's not OK to fight for anything until there's a literal war. Specifically, attempting to abolish racist societies earlier on in their development cycle is not okay, and one should wait until a legitimate armed conflict arises.

You're right, though. Innocent people are dying.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2018/03/americans-are-more-likely-be-attacked-far-right-terrorists-islamists

Quote
According to the Extremist Crime Database, the far right carried out nine fatal attacks in the US in 2017. In February of that year, Adam Purinton shot two Indian men, one of whom was killed, at a restaurant in Kansas, reportedly yelling “get out of my country” and “terrorist” before opening fire.

In March 2017, James H Jackson, an avid reader of the Daily Stormer, fatally stabbed an elderly African-American man in New York, after travelling from Baltimore to kill as many black men as possible and “make a statement”, according to the authorities.

In May, Jeremy Joseph Christian, an admirer of both Trump and the Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy McVeigh, was charged with stabbing two men to death on a train in Portland, Oregon, after they tried to prevent him from harassing two female passengers who appeared to be Muslim.

In August, James Fields Jr, a proud neo-Nazi, was charged with killing 32-year-old Heather Heyer after allegedly driving his car into a crowd in Charlottesville, Virginia, which had gathered to protest against a white supremacist rally. (“You also had some very fine people on both sides,” Trump would later remark .)

In December, a 17-year-old boy who had mowed a swastika into the grass of a community field was charged with murdering his girlfriend’s parents after they objected to their teenage daughter’s relationship with the youth because of his neo-Nazi views.

MrDelane

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #287 on: January 31, 2019, 01:10:29 PM »
And another one, just because.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/rise-far-right-extremism-united-states

Quote
Right-wing extremism in the United States appears to be growing. The number of terrorist attacks by far-right perpetrators rose over the past decade, more than quadrupling between 2016 and 2017. The recent pipe bombs and the October 27, 2018, synagogue attack in Pittsburgh are symptomatic of this trend. U.S. federal and local agencies need to quickly double down to counter this threat. There has also been a rise in far-right attacks in Europe, jumping 43 percent between 2016 and 2017.


And one more from just a few days ago... why not?
"All of the extremist killings in the US in 2018 had links to right-wing extremism, according to new report"

Granted the real head scratcher here is that the report came from the Anti Defamation League.... and given that apparently the far left seems to be 'allied with most of the anti-semites these days' it's interesting that they would claim data points to the far right wing as the real danger.


(yes, I was being sarcastic)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 01:18:29 PM by MrDelane »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #288 on: January 31, 2019, 01:19:23 PM »
The two events are comparable because they both had leaders/organizers that affiliated with racism. Don't pretend that's not the case. As I've said time and time again, the two fringes of the society share many similarities, both authoritarian and racist to name a few.

Can I confirm my understanding that you are equating the Unite the Right, white supremacist Charlottesville rally, complete with Nazi regalia, anti-Semitic chants and the deliberate killing of an unarmed woman, with the 2017 Women's March?  That the 7 million or so women who worldwide marched peacefully in the Women's March are "a fringe of society"?  (I'm one of the women who marched and I've never before been called fringe, authoritarian or racist.  I'm not aware that any of the leaders of the Women's March ever have been called those things either, and I'm sure Trump would have found a way to do so if he could.)  Cheers.

Yes, he is.

One of the organizers of the Women's March was Jewish, and was given the boot from the planning committee.  She believed that this was anti-Semitic, particularly after one of the organizer made comments praising a known anti-Semite, Mr. Farrakhan (leader of the Nation of Islam).  This led to a variety of hard questions, and was followed by both women's march leaders to categorically condemn anti-Semitism.  Near as I'm aware, no instances of anti-Semitic behvaiour or related violence happend during the actual march.  There was obviously some drama, and a lot of hurt feelings.

This is somewhat different from the gathering, openly racist rhetoric, waving of Nazi flags, and eventual murder that occurred in Charlottesville . . . but they are being equated by anistropy.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #289 on: January 31, 2019, 01:45:41 PM »
The two events are comparable because they both had leaders/organizers that affiliated with racism. Don't pretend that's not the case. As I've said time and time again, the two fringes of the society share many similarities, both authoritarian and racist to name a few.

Can I confirm my understanding that you are equating the Unite the Right, white supremacist Charlottesville rally, complete with Nazi regalia, anti-Semitic chants and the deliberate killing of an unarmed woman, with the 2017 Women's March?  That the 7 million or so women who worldwide marched peacefully in the Women's March are "a fringe of society"?  (I'm one of the women who marched and I've never before been called fringe, authoritarian or racist.  I'm not aware that any of the leaders of the Women's March ever have been called those things either, and I'm sure Trump would have found a way to do so if he could.)  Cheers.

Yes, he is.

One of the organizers of the Women's March was Jewish, and was given the boot from the planning committee.  She believed that this was anti-Semitic, particularly after one of the organizer made comments praising a known anti-Semite, Mr. Farrakhan (leader of the Nation of Islam).  This led to a variety of hard questions, and was followed by both women's march leaders to categorically condemn anti-Semitism.  Near as I'm aware, no instances of anti-Semitic behvaiour or related violence happend during the actual march.  There was obviously some drama, and a lot of hurt feelings.

This is somewhat different from the gathering, openly racist rhetoric, waving of Nazi flags, and eventual murder that occurred in Charlottesville . . . but they are being equated by anistropy.

Thanks.  So, a connection to an anti-Semite that was retracted is all he's got?  Pshaw.  And women are a fringe of society?  Right.  Good luck with that one, anistrophy, old mate.

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #290 on: January 31, 2019, 02:47:35 PM »

...

partgypsy,

I never said Nazis are not racists, you are mistaken. I have no idea why you would assume that, Nazis are racist. But Sandman is not a Nazi by any stretch of imagination. And yes, that's the classic definition of racism, which i wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately today the word Racism has a new definition from the intersectionality crowd (another trojan horse term), which essentially claims that Racism is uni-directional, only perpetrated by privileged groups against under-privileged groups. They have wedded the notion of race (again, not real) with power/wealth, which is why by their definition, which is the one mainstream media adopted, Blacks can be prejudiced against Whites, but never racist. Same goes for Asians and Jews.

you said "If you recall, my position then was that not everyone that marched or even affiliated with the Nazi flag were racist.
That is the same position I take now, not only regarding the Charlottesville protestors, but also regarding the Women's March."


anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #291 on: January 31, 2019, 03:10:49 PM »
The two events are comparable because they both had leaders/organizers that affiliated with racism. Don't pretend that's not the case. As I've said time and time again, the two fringes of the society share many similarities, both authoritarian and racist to name a few.

Can I confirm my understanding that you are equating the Unite the Right, white supremacist Charlottesville rally, complete with Nazi regalia, anti-Semitic chants and the deliberate killing of an unarmed woman, with the 2017 Women's March?  That the 7 million or so women who worldwide marched peacefully in the Women's March are "a fringe of society"?  (I'm one of the women who marched and I've never before been called fringe, authoritarian or racist.  I'm not aware that any of the leaders of the Women's March ever have been called those things either, and I'm sure Trump would have found a way to do so if he could.)  Cheers.

Yes, he is.

One of the organizers of the Women's March was Jewish, and was given the boot from the planning committee.  She believed that this was anti-Semitic, particularly after one of the organizer made comments praising a known anti-Semite, Mr. Farrakhan (leader of the Nation of Islam).  This led to a variety of hard questions, and was followed by both women's march leaders to categorically condemn anti-Semitism.  Near as I'm aware, no instances of anti-Semitic behvaiour or related violence happend during the actual march.  There was obviously some drama, and a lot of hurt feelings.

This is somewhat different from the gathering, openly racist rhetoric, waving of Nazi flags, and eventual murder that occurred in Charlottesville . . . but they are being equated by anistropy.

The evidence of certain organizers of the Women's March being anti-Semite is as good as the fringe right being anti-Semite. Have they condemned such sentiment in public after the fact? Yes. Have they severed ties with Farrakhan? No, not even close. In plain speak, they condemned anti-Semitism but not people who are anti-Semite.

The openly racist rhetoric is present, I've mentioned it many times, which you don't seem to understand. "Racism" and "racist" are now Trojan horse words and mean very different things these days. Racism should and used to mean "a belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity" but now it's uni-directional and power based. It is now so entwined with the social movements untrained eyes barely recognize it.

"All whites are racist" - Stephanie Wildman with Adrienne Davis
"a positive white identity is an impossible goal. White identity is inherently racist; white people do not exist outside the system of white supremacy" - Robin DiAngelo
"Asians contribute to White supremacy" - mentioned by Bret Weinstein in the Evergreen ordeal
"White Jews uphold White supremacy" - Tamika you know who

No reasonable conservatives outside of the fringe today would accept the following:
"sacrifices will be necessary, and, though we must remain aware of the real and material barriers feminists and others may face that limit their potential for activism, no accessible sacrifice that abnegates neoliberalism should be considered too great."

Let alone to advocate for multi-point guide on how to radicalize and gain support among the majority for their own political gains.

But you know who accepted all of it in a heartbeat? The intersectional crowd. Yes I refer to the famous hoax paper which was essentially a rewrite of ch.12 of mein kampf.

While we are on the topic of intersectionality, I suppose I would bring up some "lived experience". I grew up a Commie in a 3rd world country, I have seen how it works first hand, and this is how it begins. Things will get a lot worse before they can get more "normal". Do you not find it strange, Guitar, that Justin Murphy would all the sudden be considered an "out" person, or Ayaan Ali and Bret Weinstein for that matter.

partgypsy,
the key word is everyone. By your logic then, the affiliation with anti-semites and even holocaust deniers would make everyone participating in the womens march racist or even Nazis. That is equally absurd.

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #292 on: January 31, 2019, 03:23:44 PM »
Dude, seriously? Again the whole raison d-etre of Nazis, is that they believe in white supremacy. You can't take the peanut butter out of the peanut butter sandwich.


There were Millions of women marching in the womens march, to state that women have rights and are equal to men. But you are saying since one of the organizers was an anti-semite, the purpose of all the marchers is racist or anti-semitic. You can't be arguing that, can you?

Here's the mission statement of the Women's march:
 We believe that Women’s Rights are Human Rights and Human Rights are Women’s Rights. We must create a society in which women - including Black women, Indigenous women, poor women, immigrant women, disabled women, Jewish women, Muslim women, Latinx women, Asian and Pacific Islander women, lesbian, bi, queer, and trans women - are free and able to care for and nurture their families, however they are formed, in safe and healthy environments free from structural impediments."
Personally the statement is a little woo woo for me, but specific objectives like like physical safety, health care access, employment, seem pretty mainstream.   

I can't find a mission statement or "goal" of the Unite the Right Rally on the website but a list of the speakers were:
David Duke (former grand wizard of KKK), as well as Patrick Little, Simon Roche, Kevin Cormier, Avi Horton, Corey Mahler and Tom Kawcyznki. These were the scheduled, invited speakers. This is NOT a mainstream movement, but considered a hate group.

Here's another question. How many Jewish people proudly participated in the women's march, and did so proudly with no harrassment or issue with it whatsoever?

How many Jewish people participated in the Unite the Right march, proudly and openly?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 03:35:29 PM by partgypsy »

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #293 on: January 31, 2019, 04:08:08 PM »
You are equating Nazis with white supremacy. White supremacy is an aspect of being Nazis, it's not the whole picture. Being a white supremacist does not automatically make you a Nazi. Ever since the 1700s Whites had the idea of "Europeans" and "Whites" being superiors to various natives they encountered, that does not retrospectively make them Nazis.

Too many people simply equate Nazis with white supremacy, another example of how distorted white identity has become by all the Trojan horse words. They see white supremacists, and shout, NAZIS! Having failed to distinguish the two groups. Did you know the Japenese also went through a racial-superiority phase during the War? Does that make them Nazis?

In 19th century America, especially the Southern parts, Whites had long held views they were superior to Blacks. That does not retrospectively make them Nazis.

Once again, simply being a white supremacist does not make you a Nazi. What does? One needs to adhere to most if not ALL of the Nazi doctrines. They must view various groups of people undesirable and work to systematically eradicate them by force, while also invading other countries. Are you seriously claiming that's what the MAGA crowd is doing today?

That womens march mission is NEW. People called them out on it in December for missing Jewish and Asian women, etc. I am glad they have updated it.

I have no clue how many Jewish people proudly participated in the women's march, notice how the media simply swept the much lower turnout this year under the rug. There are plenty of good people who can tell something is not quite right, as Haaretz pointed out, but some simply refuse to believe what most people can see.

Are they both affiliated with racists? Yes. Are they equal in the level of racism? Not in the slightest. But to denounce one while giving the other a pass is hypocrisy.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 04:17:14 PM by anisotropy »

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #294 on: January 31, 2019, 04:20:07 PM »
No reasonable conservatives outside of the fringe today would accept the following:
"sacrifices will be necessary, and, though we must remain aware of the real and material barriers feminists and others may face that limit their potential for activism, no accessible sacrifice that abnegates neoliberalism should be considered too great."

Let alone to advocate for multi-point guide on how to radicalize and gain support among the majority for their own political gains.

But you know who accepted all of it in a heartbeat? The intersectional crowd. Yes I refer to the famous hoax paper which was essentially a rewrite of ch.12 of mein kampf.

Ahh yes, the mysterious and elusive "fem-nazi" responsible for exactly 0 deaths. Not to be confused with real Nazis who are responsible for millions of actual deaths. The only thing you are highlighting is that a particular publication did a piss poor job of peer-review. Claiming the intersectional crowd accepted all of it is extremely disingenuous. 

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #295 on: January 31, 2019, 04:26:32 PM »
Just to be clear, all white supremacists are not Nazis. I agree with you. But it is incorrect to then conclude all nazis are not white supremacists. You are having some basic logic problems. 

And again, I'm notsure how why saying there are white supremacists who are not Nazis, is somehow supporting your arguments? It's still not a good thing to be a white supremacist or alt-right winger, even if you're not waving a Nazi flag. In fact many white supremacists and far right-wing people use a myriad of symbols. Still doesn't make their beliefs right.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 04:30:55 PM by partgypsy »

MrDelane

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #296 on: January 31, 2019, 04:29:34 PM »
I feel like the thing that is being ignored in this conversation is the actual data that was linked to.
The data makes it pretty clear that actual violence is overwhelmingly coming form the far right, not the far left.
That is data, not anecdotes. 

So while a potential pre-emptive war may be being fought by the left (according to some), the data suggests that the far right is already fighting an actual war.

You seem to want to stop the left due to what you perceive as the danger of their ideology.
Meanwhile many on the left would like to stop the right due to the danger of their actions.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #297 on: January 31, 2019, 04:30:11 PM »
Just to be clear, all white supremacists are not Nazis. I agree with you. But it is incorrect to then conclude all nazis are not white supremacists. You are having some basic logic problems.

I also agree with you ALL Nazis are white supremacists, I am really not sure why we are arguing? But just to be clear, alt-right are not all Right, read Justin Murphy's article I had linked. Thanks.

MrD
Yes, actual physical violence is overwhelmingly coming from the far right, I agree with this 100%. You can disagree on me but this is where I stand:

Actions are relatively easy to spot and stop and prevent.
Ideology, left unchecked, is far more dangerous.

Call it an ex-Commie's "lived experience".
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 04:36:21 PM by anisotropy »

MrDelane

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #298 on: January 31, 2019, 04:39:00 PM »
Yes, actual physical violence is overwhelmingly coming from the far right, I agree with this 100%. You can disagree on me but this is where I stand:

Actions are relatively easy to spot and stop and prevent.
Ideology, left unchecked, is far more dangerous.

Call it an ex-Commie's "lived experience".

I am going to assume that you hold that belief because you think that ideology can lead to action.
Otherwise, what would the danger be?

In which case - do you not see any connection between the ideologies of the far right and their violent actions?

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #299 on: January 31, 2019, 05:25:02 PM »

In which case - do you not see any connection between the ideologies of the far right and their violent actions?

Yes that could very well be. But we need to keep in mind it is difficult to determine how much of it was caused by MAGA.

Bowers (Pittsburgh shooter), for example, has publicly stated he never voted for Trump nor ever had anything to do with MAGA, but most people still think it's MAGA induced. This goes back to how alt-right are not all right. The majority of MAGA supporters, as Murphy had shown, are to the left of Ted Cruz.

Anti-Semitism runs deep in the far right and it is not tolerable. I am sure you've heard plenty of crazy theories on how Jews worship the devil or the lizardmen. Much of it fundamentally was because Jews had been historically more wealthy as a group, or as we call it today, more privilege. Scary to see the left pulling the same thing and anti-Semitism growing on the left too.