Author Topic: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?  (Read 18407 times)

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #200 on: January 25, 2019, 08:37:39 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #201 on: January 25, 2019, 08:41:53 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

There are plenty of crazies on both sides.  Only the Republicans are explicitly pandering to their crazies though.

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2019, 08:47:04 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

There are plenty of crazies on both sides.  Only the Republicans are explicitly pandering to their crazies though.

Really?  Antifa?  Everybody needs to take it down a notch (or ten). 

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #203 on: January 25, 2019, 08:49:28 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #204 on: January 25, 2019, 08:55:34 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #205 on: January 25, 2019, 08:58:47 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

There are plenty of crazies on both sides.  Only the Republicans are explicitly pandering to their crazies though.

Really?  Antifa?  Everybody needs to take it down a notch (or ten).

I agreed that there are crazies on both sides.  But only Republicans explicitly pander to them.

Trump for example, explicitly panders to neo-nazis.

Which Democrats do the same with Antifa?

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #206 on: January 25, 2019, 09:04:32 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

There are plenty of crazies on both sides.  Only the Republicans are explicitly pandering to their crazies though.

Really?  Antifa?  Everybody needs to take it down a notch (or ten).

I agreed that there are crazies on both sides.  But only Republicans explicitly pander to them.

Trump for example, explicitly panders to neo-nazis.

Which Democrats do the same with Antifa?

https://twitter.com/keithellison/status/948657342308147202?lang=en

Let me be clear on this, there are many responsible Democrats appalled by Antifa just as there are many responsible Republicans appalled by persons on the fringes of their party.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #207 on: January 25, 2019, 09:09:25 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

I can acknowledge that there are problems on both sides.

But pretending they are the same in scope and degree is part of the problem.

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #208 on: January 25, 2019, 09:23:56 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

I can acknowledge that there are problems on both sides.

But pretending they are the same in scope and degree is part of the problem.

I think you are pretending they aren't similar or equal in size and scope. 

In less than 2 minutes I found a pic of a DNC member seemingly supporting Antifa that is less than a month old.  That is messed up.  I'm sure you could find equally appalling actions on the republican side, but that's not the point.  Both sides need to move towards the center and condemn the fringes.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #209 on: January 25, 2019, 09:29:30 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

I can acknowledge that there are problems on both sides.

But pretending they are the same in scope and degree is part of the problem.

I think you are pretending they aren't similar or equal in size and scope. 

In less than 2 minutes I found a pic of a DNC member seemingly supporting Antifa that is less than a month old.  That is messed up.  I'm sure you could find equally appalling actions on the republican side, but that's not the point.  Both sides need to move towards the center and condemn the fringes.

Oh, I'm not surprised you don't agree.

But I just wanted to go on record as saying it.

Also, ONE. Also "seemingly."

Lol

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #210 on: January 25, 2019, 09:33:17 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

I can acknowledge that there are problems on both sides.

But pretending they are the same in scope and degree is part of the problem.

I think you are pretending they aren't similar or equal in size and scope. 

In less than 2 minutes I found a pic of a DNC member seemingly supporting Antifa that is less than a month old.  That is messed up.  I'm sure you could find equally appalling actions on the republican side, but that's not the point.  Both sides need to move towards the center and condemn the fringes.

Oh, I'm not surprised you don't agree.

But I just wanted to go on record as saying it.

Also, ONE. Also "seemingly."

Lol

I didn't do an exhaustive scope, nor was I previously aware of this tweet.  The word "seemingly" was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Do you have any exonerating information on his behalf? 

I'm sure numerous other examples could be found, just as I'm sure you could find endless examples on the republican side.

If you can't admit both sides have significant issues, you are part of the problem.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #211 on: January 25, 2019, 09:37:16 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

There are plenty of crazies on both sides.  Only the Republicans are explicitly pandering to their crazies though.

Really?  Antifa?  Everybody needs to take it down a notch (or ten).

I agreed that there are crazies on both sides.  But only Republicans explicitly pander to them.

Trump for example, explicitly panders to neo-nazis.

Which Democrats do the same with Antifa?

https://twitter.com/keithellison/status/948657342308147202?lang=en

Let me be clear on this, there are many responsible Democrats appalled by Antifa just as there are many responsible Republicans appalled by persons on the fringes of their party.

Fair enough.  Keith Ellison is an idiot for pandering to Antifa.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #212 on: January 25, 2019, 09:37:39 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

I can acknowledge that there are problems on both sides.

But pretending they are the same in scope and degree is part of the problem.

I think you are pretending they aren't similar or equal in size and scope. 

In less than 2 minutes I found a pic of a DNC member seemingly supporting Antifa that is less than a month old.  That is messed up.  I'm sure you could find equally appalling actions on the republican side, but that's not the point.  Both sides need to move towards the center and condemn the fringes.

Oh, I'm not surprised you don't agree.

But I just wanted to go on record as saying it.

Also, ONE. Also "seemingly."

Lol

I didn't do an exhaustive scope, nor was I previously aware of this tweet.  The word "seemingly" was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Do you have any exonerating information on his behalf? 

I'm sure numerous other examples could be found, just as I'm sure you could find endless examples on the republican side.

If you can't admit both sides have significant issues, you are part of the problem.

The Ellison tweet is a year old. If you found it in less than two minutes, my guess is not that you went through his and other politicians' tweets for the past year. My guess is some right-wing site has crowed about it. So, yeah, that's the exception that proves the rule?

As I said, I admit both sides have issues. I just don't admit that the scope or size are equal. As I said above. Already. But even so, you are still saying I "can't admit" both sides have issues.

Since your "if" is untrue, I'm going to ignore the "then" side of your sentence. Because it doesn't apply to me.


Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #213 on: January 25, 2019, 09:48:09 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

I can acknowledge that there are problems on both sides.

But pretending they are the same in scope and degree is part of the problem.

I think you are pretending they aren't similar or equal in size and scope. 

In less than 2 minutes I found a pic of a DNC member seemingly supporting Antifa that is less than a month old.  That is messed up.  I'm sure you could find equally appalling actions on the republican side, but that's not the point.  Both sides need to move towards the center and condemn the fringes.

Oh, I'm not surprised you don't agree.

But I just wanted to go on record as saying it.

Also, ONE. Also "seemingly."

Lol

I didn't do an exhaustive scope, nor was I previously aware of this tweet.  The word "seemingly" was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Do you have any exonerating information on his behalf? 

I'm sure numerous other examples could be found, just as I'm sure you could find endless examples on the republican side.

If you can't admit both sides have significant issues, you are part of the problem.

The Ellison tweet is a year old. If you found it in less than two minutes, my guess is not that you went through his and other politicians' tweets for the past year. My guess is some right-wing site has crowed about it. So, yeah, that's the exception that proves the rule?

As I said, I admit both sides have issues. I just don't admit that the scope or size are equal. As I said above. Already. But even so, you are still saying I "can't admit" both sides have issues.

Since your "if" is untrue, I'm going to ignore the "then" side of your sentence. Because it doesn't apply to me.

I stand corrected, it is a year old.  As to the source, I googled it.  I haven't watched cable news for nearly a year nor do I frequent right wing sites as my new source.  That was direct from his twitter feed and found quickly with a search of Antifa democrat.  I intentionally didn't include any editorial comments as the pic itself says enough as is the fact its still there apparently a year later.  WTF.

My "if" is untrue as in both sides don't have significant issues?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 09:52:17 AM by Midwest »

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #214 on: January 25, 2019, 10:00:54 AM »
Quote
...snip
I didn't do an exhaustive scope, nor was I previously aware of this tweet.  The word "seemingly" was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Do you have any exonerating information on his behalf? 

I'm sure numerous other examples could be found, just as I'm sure you could find endless examples on the republican side.

If you can't admit both sides have significant issues, you are part of the problem.

The Ellison tweet is a year old. If you found it in less than two minutes, my guess is not that you went through his and other politicians' tweets for the past year. My guess is some right-wing site has crowed about it. So, yeah, that's the exception that proves the rule?

As I said, I admit both sides have issues. I just don't admit that the scope or size are equal. As I said above. Already. But even so, you are still saying I "can't admit" both sides have issues.

Since your "if" is untrue, I'm going to ignore the "then" side of your sentence. Because it doesn't apply to me.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=keith+ellison+support+antifa&qs=HS&pq=keith+ellison+&sk=HS2&sc=8-14&cvid=6D51117429E14700888DD93EF7F06283&FORM=QBRE&sp=3

Yep, first result is Fox news. Most of the other results are conservative news sites citing the same tweet.

The idea that both sides are on the same level is nonsense. The AG of Minnesota posting about a book he hasn't read does not compare to the president of the US posting false statistics that demonize a particular race or religion, citing false information from conspiracy theory organizations like infowars, and refusing to condemn extremist groups. I don't need to search for examples, he provides them on a regular basis. There are other republicans guilty as well but the main reason many of them have lost my respect is that they condone his behavior.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #215 on: January 25, 2019, 10:02:28 AM »
Quote
...snip
I didn't do an exhaustive scope, nor was I previously aware of this tweet.  The word "seemingly" was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Do you have any exonerating information on his behalf? 

I'm sure numerous other examples could be found, just as I'm sure you could find endless examples on the republican side.

If you can't admit both sides have significant issues, you are part of the problem.

The Ellison tweet is a year old. If you found it in less than two minutes, my guess is not that you went through his and other politicians' tweets for the past year. My guess is some right-wing site has crowed about it. So, yeah, that's the exception that proves the rule?

As I said, I admit both sides have issues. I just don't admit that the scope or size are equal. As I said above. Already. But even so, you are still saying I "can't admit" both sides have issues.

Since your "if" is untrue, I'm going to ignore the "then" side of your sentence. Because it doesn't apply to me.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=keith+ellison+support+antifa&qs=HS&pq=keith+ellison+&sk=HS2&sc=8-14&cvid=6D51117429E14700888DD93EF7F06283&FORM=QBRE&sp=3

Yep, first result is Fox news. Most of the other results are conservative news sites citing the same tweet.

The idea that both sides are on the same level is nonsense. The AG of Minnesota posting about a book he hasn't read does not compare to the president of the US posting false statistics that demonize a particular race & religion, citing false information from conspiracy theory organizations like infowars, and refusing to condemn extremist groups. I don't need to search for examples, he provides them on a regular basis. There are other republicans guilty as well but the main reason many of them have lost my respect is that they condone his behavior.

I appreciate that you outed yourself as one of the 11 bing users on the internet to provide us this information.  :P

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #216 on: January 25, 2019, 10:08:28 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

I can acknowledge that there are problems on both sides.

But pretending they are the same in scope and degree is part of the problem.

I think you are pretending they aren't similar or equal in size and scope. 

In less than 2 minutes I found a pic of a DNC member seemingly supporting Antifa that is less than a month old.  That is messed up.  I'm sure you could find equally appalling actions on the republican side, but that's not the point.  Both sides need to move towards the center and condemn the fringes.

Oh, I'm not surprised you don't agree.

But I just wanted to go on record as saying it.

Also, ONE. Also "seemingly."

Lol

I didn't do an exhaustive scope, nor was I previously aware of this tweet.  The word "seemingly" was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Do you have any exonerating information on his behalf? 

I'm sure numerous other examples could be found, just as I'm sure you could find endless examples on the republican side.

If you can't admit both sides have significant issues, you are part of the problem.

The Ellison tweet is a year old. If you found it in less than two minutes, my guess is not that you went through his and other politicians' tweets for the past year. My guess is some right-wing site has crowed about it. So, yeah, that's the exception that proves the rule?

As I said, I admit both sides have issues. I just don't admit that the scope or size are equal. As I said above. Already. But even so, you are still saying I "can't admit" both sides have issues.

Since your "if" is untrue, I'm going to ignore the "then" side of your sentence. Because it doesn't apply to me.

I stand corrected, it is a year old.  As to the source, I googled it.  I haven't watched cable news for nearly a year nor do I frequent right wing sites as my new source.  That was direct from his twitter feed and found quickly with a search of Antifa democrat.  I intentionally didn't include any editorial comments as the pic itself says enough as is the fact its still there apparently a year later.  WTF.

My "if" is untrue as in both sides don't have significant issues?

Reread your own sentence.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #217 on: January 25, 2019, 10:09:19 AM »
Quote
...snip
I didn't do an exhaustive scope, nor was I previously aware of this tweet.  The word "seemingly" was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Do you have any exonerating information on his behalf? 

I'm sure numerous other examples could be found, just as I'm sure you could find endless examples on the republican side.

If you can't admit both sides have significant issues, you are part of the problem.

The Ellison tweet is a year old. If you found it in less than two minutes, my guess is not that you went through his and other politicians' tweets for the past year. My guess is some right-wing site has crowed about it. So, yeah, that's the exception that proves the rule?

As I said, I admit both sides have issues. I just don't admit that the scope or size are equal. As I said above. Already. But even so, you are still saying I "can't admit" both sides have issues.

Since your "if" is untrue, I'm going to ignore the "then" side of your sentence. Because it doesn't apply to me.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=keith+ellison+support+antifa&qs=HS&pq=keith+ellison+&sk=HS2&sc=8-14&cvid=6D51117429E14700888DD93EF7F06283&FORM=QBRE&sp=3

Yep, first result is Fox news. Most of the other results are conservative news sites citing the same tweet.

The idea that both sides are on the same level is nonsense. The AG of Minnesota posting about a book he hasn't read does not compare to the president of the US posting false statistics that demonize a particular race & religion, citing false information from conspiracy theory organizations like infowars, and refusing to condemn extremist groups. I don't need to search for examples, he provides them on a regular basis. There are other republicans guilty as well but the main reason many of them have lost my respect is that they condone his behavior.

I appreciate that you outed yourself as one of the 11 bing users on the internet to provide us this information.  :P

It was a shameless effort to make fox the number one result. Google brought it in at number 3 or so and that just didn't have the same effect.

Just Bing it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfHuZ5qrYX4
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 10:11:07 AM by Dabnasty »

shenlong55

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 425
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #218 on: January 25, 2019, 10:13:49 AM »
(reminder that I've been a consistent registered republican and #nevertrump er)

You can criticize Trump for dividing the country, but I'm still not sure the division we're seeing today is worse than if Clinton had won. I think you would have seen the same uncontrollable rage and derangement from the opposition Republicans. You would have seen constant hearings a la Benghazi. There was a large part of this country for whom the very idea that she could be President was simply unfathomable. It took years for the conservative movement to build this atmosphere.

I agree. I also think there would be a rash of enraged Trumpers shooting liberals in the streets.

Why would you say that?

Because of how badly Trump was repeating over and over that if Hillary won, the election was rigged. He was stopping just short of openly inciting violence in a number of instances in the weeks leading up to the election. I think that her winning would have tipped a few loonies over the edge.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of crazy on both sides at this point as demonstrated by death threat against this kid.  Everybody needs to take it down.

I'm not talking about whatabouts or false equivalencies. I'm talking about Trump supporters and fanning the flames of violence. And frankly, that there has been a rise in far-right extremism lately, and that's with Trump in office and their side "winning."

 If you can't acknowledge the parallel problems on the far right and left, you are part of the problem.

I can acknowledge that there are problems on both sides.

But pretending they are the same in scope and degree is part of the problem.

+1

Jouer

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #219 on: January 25, 2019, 10:43:15 AM »



We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

If a student said the things in bold, you are correct they should be punished by the school or their parents.  Completely agree.  The kid at the center of this, is there any proof he said those kind of thing?  If not, then why should he apologize and why has he been vilified and singled out?

20, 30 40 kids without parents, with their buddies and then being yelled at by the Black Hebrews, I have little doubt somebody said something they shouldn't.  Some of them might have done it without the Black Hebrews interaction, but the furor over this is insane.

There is no if - the bolded was said on video by someone at the front of the group. The kid at the centre of this didn't seem to say anything. But based on the video of him laughing and carrying on, he sure enjoyed it. This was before his "stand-off" with Phillips. He has been singled out because of the first tweet that included a pic of him and his shit-eating grin. That grin showed he knew he was being an arshole but he was doing it anyways and there was nothing anyone could do about it. I don't think it's fair that he is the face of this issue, to be honest, but he's not some angelic student saying a private prayer. We know that much is 100% bullshit.

Since it's hard to say who started what, I'd give the group of them detention for a week or something and make them do a project on not being an arshole in situations like that. If they don't get at least that amount of punishment, they will know they can do this again. Oh, except the guy who said the rape comment - he should get way worse punishment. When I went to catholic school it would have been the strap across his ass - whatever the 2019 version of that is, I suppose. I'd also levy harsher punishments against anyone caught on camera doing the tomahawk and the guy who took his jacket and shirts off to rile up the crowd.

To anyone saying: "yea I did stupid stuff like that as a kid" remember that if you got caught you would have been in major shit.

The kid in the center is on a school trip.  He's having a good time.  Some of his friends/associates may have said some things they shouldn't.  He may or may not have heard them.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no video of him doing saying those things.  He stands calmly there while some guy marches into his group and beats a drum in his face.  He's probably wonder WTF the guy is doing especially with the shitshow that has preceded that (Black Hebrews, shirtless dancing boy).  You want him punished because you don't like the look on his face in this confusing situation?  Its a confusing situation all around which then went viral without the facts.
Yep. All of them punished for engaging with BHI at all. BHI stood in one place spewing their shit and the MAGA kids surrounded them. There's a good lesson here for these kids to be taught about not engaging with dickheads spewing bullshit.

That was not a confused look. That was a shit-eating grin. I'm not saying he gets punishment for the grin, I'm saying he gets the same punishment as the rest of his school mates for engaging at all. And then the ones who did more, get more punishment.

Honestly, it's like you didn't even read my post. Instead you picked out a couple things to argue about - some of which are things I didn't actually say, like he should be punished for the grin.

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #220 on: January 25, 2019, 10:54:09 AM »



We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

If a student said the things in bold, you are correct they should be punished by the school or their parents.  Completely agree.  The kid at the center of this, is there any proof he said those kind of thing?  If not, then why should he apologize and why has he been vilified and singled out?

20, 30 40 kids without parents, with their buddies and then being yelled at by the Black Hebrews, I have little doubt somebody said something they shouldn't.  Some of them might have done it without the Black Hebrews interaction, but the furor over this is insane.

There is no if - the bolded was said on video by someone at the front of the group. The kid at the centre of this didn't seem to say anything. But based on the video of him laughing and carrying on, he sure enjoyed it. This was before his "stand-off" with Phillips. He has been singled out because of the first tweet that included a pic of him and his shit-eating grin. That grin showed he knew he was being an arshole but he was doing it anyways and there was nothing anyone could do about it. I don't think it's fair that he is the face of this issue, to be honest, but he's not some angelic student saying a private prayer. We know that much is 100% bullshit.

Since it's hard to say who started what, I'd give the group of them detention for a week or something and make them do a project on not being an arshole in situations like that. If they don't get at least that amount of punishment, they will know they can do this again. Oh, except the guy who said the rape comment - he should get way worse punishment. When I went to catholic school it would have been the strap across his ass - whatever the 2019 version of that is, I suppose. I'd also levy harsher punishments against anyone caught on camera doing the tomahawk and the guy who took his jacket and shirts off to rile up the crowd.

To anyone saying: "yea I did stupid stuff like that as a kid" remember that if you got caught you would have been in major shit.

The kid in the center is on a school trip.  He's having a good time.  Some of his friends/associates may have said some things they shouldn't.  He may or may not have heard them.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no video of him doing saying those things.  He stands calmly there while some guy marches into his group and beats a drum in his face.  He's probably wonder WTF the guy is doing especially with the shitshow that has preceded that (Black Hebrews, shirtless dancing boy).  You want him punished because you don't like the look on his face in this confusing situation?  Its a confusing situation all around which then went viral without the facts.
Yep. All of them punished for engaging with BHI at all. BHI stood in one place spewing their shit and the MAGA kids surrounded them. There's a good lesson here for these kids to be taught about not engaging with dickheads spewing bullshit.

That was not a confused look. That was a shit-eating grin. I'm not saying he gets punishment for the grin, I'm saying he gets the same punishment as the rest of his school mates for engaging at all. And then the ones who did more, get more punishment.

Honestly, it's like you didn't even read my post. Instead you picked out a couple things to argue about - some of which are things I didn't actually say, like he should be punished for the grin.

I read your post and if he participated in bad behavior before or after the Native American exchange, he should be punished by his parents or the school.  Not publicly shamed, no death threats, but that's not how this went.

The look on his face however, has drawn the ire of many and has resulted in the mob insanity against these kids.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #221 on: January 25, 2019, 11:22:43 AM »
I read your post and if he participated in bad behavior before or after the Native American exchange, he should be punished by his parents or the school.  Not publicly shamed, no death threats, but that's not how this went.

The look on his face however, has drawn the ire of many and has resulted in the mob insanity against these kids.

Context is important.  The kid was wearing a MAGA hat while doing what he was doing, which significantly changes the context of the look on his face.

As previously posted:
Wearing a MAGA hat is effectively an admission of racism.  The MAGA hat is the symbol of the unabashed racist currently in the White House.  It's similar to flying a confederate flag.  Now, technically wearing a MAGA hat or flying a confederate flag doesn't make you a racist.  There exist tepid arguments that it's not really about racism . . . and it's just coincidence that racists love and support both symbols wholeheartedly, but they're uniformly disingenuous.  A person wearing a swastika is well within his rights to wear that hindu symbol.  He's also going to catch a lot of shit when he does something remotely racist.  That's completely understandable.  It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Jouer

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #222 on: January 25, 2019, 11:23:24 AM »



We expect repercussions for the kids b/c they are supposedly good christian boys. I do not believe their lives should be ruined and I do not agree with people searching out and posting their names but I do believe there should be punishment for their actions. Not from me. From their parents and/or school. Regardless of who started what, they engaged. I'm not expecting much, even this would be better than nothing:
"yea we shouldn'ta been little shits there. Calling out "it's not rape if you like it" is not appropriate. And making racists comments isn't in line with our values....we'll learn from this."

If a student said the things in bold, you are correct they should be punished by the school or their parents.  Completely agree.  The kid at the center of this, is there any proof he said those kind of thing?  If not, then why should he apologize and why has he been vilified and singled out?

20, 30 40 kids without parents, with their buddies and then being yelled at by the Black Hebrews, I have little doubt somebody said something they shouldn't.  Some of them might have done it without the Black Hebrews interaction, but the furor over this is insane.

There is no if - the bolded was said on video by someone at the front of the group. The kid at the centre of this didn't seem to say anything. But based on the video of him laughing and carrying on, he sure enjoyed it. This was before his "stand-off" with Phillips. He has been singled out because of the first tweet that included a pic of him and his shit-eating grin. That grin showed he knew he was being an arshole but he was doing it anyways and there was nothing anyone could do about it. I don't think it's fair that he is the face of this issue, to be honest, but he's not some angelic student saying a private prayer. We know that much is 100% bullshit.

Since it's hard to say who started what, I'd give the group of them detention for a week or something and make them do a project on not being an arshole in situations like that. If they don't get at least that amount of punishment, they will know they can do this again. Oh, except the guy who said the rape comment - he should get way worse punishment. When I went to catholic school it would have been the strap across his ass - whatever the 2019 version of that is, I suppose. I'd also levy harsher punishments against anyone caught on camera doing the tomahawk and the guy who took his jacket and shirts off to rile up the crowd.

To anyone saying: "yea I did stupid stuff like that as a kid" remember that if you got caught you would have been in major shit.

The kid in the center is on a school trip.  He's having a good time.  Some of his friends/associates may have said some things they shouldn't.  He may or may not have heard them.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no video of him doing saying those things.  He stands calmly there while some guy marches into his group and beats a drum in his face.  He's probably wonder WTF the guy is doing especially with the shitshow that has preceded that (Black Hebrews, shirtless dancing boy).  You want him punished because you don't like the look on his face in this confusing situation?  Its a confusing situation all around which then went viral without the facts.
Yep. All of them punished for engaging with BHI at all. BHI stood in one place spewing their shit and the MAGA kids surrounded them. There's a good lesson here for these kids to be taught about not engaging with dickheads spewing bullshit.

That was not a confused look. That was a shit-eating grin. I'm not saying he gets punishment for the grin, I'm saying he gets the same punishment as the rest of his school mates for engaging at all. And then the ones who did more, get more punishment.

Honestly, it's like you didn't even read my post. Instead you picked out a couple things to argue about - some of which are things I didn't actually say, like he should be punished for the grin.

I read your post and if he participated in bad behavior before or after the Native American exchange, he should be punished by his parents or the school.  Not publicly shamed, no death threats, but that's not how this went.

The look on his face however, has drawn the ire of many and has resulted in the mob insanity against these kids.

On that we agree. The public shaming was/is too much. I agree with public shaming / name finding / people getting fired for adults, like the guy who kept asking the black family for ID at their own community pool. But not for kids being a bunch of arsholes.

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1306
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #223 on: January 25, 2019, 11:35:38 AM »

On that we agree. The public shaming was/is too much. I agree with public shaming / name finding / people getting fired for adults, like the guy who kept asking the black family for ID at their own community pool. But not for kids being a bunch of arsholes.

I generally disagree with public shaming for minor indiscretions.  It seems to be guilty until proven innocent, indiscriminate as to who it applies to, and rarely does the punishment fit the crime. 

The mob wants to ruin peoples lives over minor things in many cases.  My social media footprint is very small for many reasons one of which is the reputation risk greatly outweighs the reward.

PS - I think Trump should get the hell off twitter as well.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 11:38:08 AM by Midwest »

Poundwise

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1312
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #224 on: January 25, 2019, 12:22:08 PM »
A good way to view these conflicts, is switch around the races of the players, and see how you react.  Like I said, what if it had been 200 black youths waiting for a bus, many wearing, I don't know, let's say Antifa T-shirts, surrounding 4 white men who turn out later to be Westboro Baptist church members. They're making noise, a little wild. Then a priest starts to lead a procession through the crowd, swinging his censer and singing a hymn of peace. One boy holds his ground in front of the priest, who is still singing and swinging. The boy is grinning and some of his peers are pretending to pray, some are singing along with the hymn either seriously or mockingly, and others are just dancing around or looking confused, because where did this priest come from?

Yep. All of them punished for engaging with BHI at all. BHI stood in one place spewing their shit and the MAGA kids surrounded them. There's a good lesson here for these kids to be taught about not engaging with dickheads spewing bullshit.

Here's what I'd like to see come out of this (though it may not):
1.  School assembly and discussions on how and when to engage with the community in public, and how wearing political clothing, although protected speech, is more than a fashion statement.
2. Discipline and retraining of chaperones regarding point #1
3. Signed letter from several students to Phillips, apologizing for any disrespect shown. Sandmann could simply note that as a younger person he should have shown respect to a senior by moving out of his way, and will do better next time such a situation arises.
4. Gracious acknowledgement by Phillips and a statement of regret for the misunderstanding of the youths' intentions.
5. Apology from Phillips Native American associate for his statements to one of the boys, unless it was in response to a racist comment.  In which case the young man should step up and own his part.
6. Apologies from media of BOTH left and right for vilifying the players in the conflict. Better media practices and better consumption habits (keep dreaming!)
7. A meeting between Native Americans and the high school students, hopefully resulting in better understanding of one another.


Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #225 on: January 25, 2019, 12:27:38 PM »

Here's what I'd like to see come out of this (though it may not):
1.  School assembly and discussions on how and when to engage with the community in public, and how wearing political clothing, although protected speech, is more than a fashion statement.
2. Discipline and retraining of chaperones regarding point #1
3. Signed letter from several students to Phillips, apologizing for any disrespect shown. Sandmann could simply note that as a younger person he should have shown respect to a senior by moving out of his way, and will do better next time such a situation arises.
4. Gracious acknowledgement by Phillips and a statement of regret for the misunderstanding of the youths' intentions.
5. Apology from Phillips Native American associate for his statements to one of the boys, unless it was in response to a racist comment.  In which case the young man should step up and own his part.
6. Apologies from media of BOTH left and right for vilifying the players in the conflict. Better media practices and better consumption habits (keep dreaming!)
7. A meeting between Native Americans and the high school students, hopefully resulting in better understanding of one another.

This is what ought to have happened all along. And to be fair, step 1 might have been on its way of coming, given that the school and diocese issued a statement apologizing very quickly.

shenlong55

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 425
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #226 on: January 25, 2019, 12:53:17 PM »

On that we agree. The public shaming was/is too much. I agree with public shaming / name finding / people getting fired for adults, like the guy who kept asking the black family for ID at their own community pool. But not for kids being a bunch of arsholes.

I generally disagree with public shaming for minor indiscretions.  It seems to be guilty until proven innocent, indiscriminate as to who it applies to, and rarely does the punishment fit the crime. 

The mob wants to ruin peoples lives over minor things in many cases.  My social media footprint is very small for many reasons one of which is the reputation risk greatly outweighs the reward.

PS - I think Trump should get the hell off twitter as well.

I think the current overuse of public shaming (if there is one) is an understandable over correction in response to the lack of consequences for bad behavior for certain people and that fixing that lack of consequences will fix the over correction.

OneStep

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Location: KC Metro
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #227 on: January 25, 2019, 03:04:30 PM »

Here's what I'd like to see come out of this (though it may not):
1.  School assembly and discussions on how and when to engage with the community in public, and how wearing political clothing, although protected speech, is more than a fashion statement.
2. Discipline and retraining of chaperones regarding point #1
3. Signed letter from several students to Phillips, apologizing for any disrespect shown. Sandmann could simply note that as a younger person he should have shown respect to a senior by moving out of his way, and will do better next time such a situation arises.
4. Gracious acknowledgement by Phillips and a statement of regret for the misunderstanding of the youths' intentions.
5. Apology from Phillips Native American associate for his statements to one of the boys, unless it was in response to a racist comment.  In which case the young man should step up and own his part.
6. Apologies from media of BOTH left and right for vilifying the players in the conflict. Better media practices and better consumption habits (keep dreaming!)
7. A meeting between Native Americans and the high school students, hopefully resulting in better understanding of one another.

This is what ought to have happened all along. And to be fair, step 1 might have been on its way of coming, given that the school and diocese issued a statement apologizing very quickly.

I completely agree with all points above. That would go along way to show that both sides are looking to move forward and learn from the interaction.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #228 on: January 25, 2019, 05:45:35 PM »

Here's what I'd like to see come out of this (though it may not):
1.  School assembly and discussions on how and when to engage with the community in public, and how wearing political clothing, although protected speech, is more than a fashion statement.
2. Discipline and retraining of chaperones regarding point #1
3. Signed letter from several students to Phillips, apologizing for any disrespect shown. Sandmann could simply note that as a younger person he should have shown respect to a senior by moving out of his way, and will do better next time such a situation arises.
4. Gracious acknowledgement by Phillips and a statement of regret for the misunderstanding of the youths' intentions.
5. Apology from Phillips Native American associate for his statements to one of the boys, unless it was in response to a racist comment.  In which case the young man should step up and own his part.
6. Apologies from media of BOTH left and right for vilifying the players in the conflict. Better media practices and better consumption habits (keep dreaming!)
7. A meeting between Native Americans and the high school students, hopefully resulting in better understanding of one another.

This is what ought to have happened all along. And to be fair, step 1 might have been on its way of coming, given that the school and diocese issued a statement apologizing very quickly.

I completely agree with all points above. That would go along way to show that both sides are looking to move forward and learn from the interaction.

Local reporting talked about how a Trump supporter and Native American were at Cov Cath and decided to shake hands and sit down to have a conversation. It's good to see that.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #229 on: January 26, 2019, 12:47:15 PM »
Wearing a MAGA hat is effectively an admission of racism.  The MAGA hat is the symbol of the unabashed racist currently in the White House.  It's similar to flying a confederate flag.

That's absurb.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #230 on: January 26, 2019, 04:17:56 PM »
Wearing a MAGA hat is effectively an admission of racism.  The MAGA hat is the symbol of the unabashed racist currently in the White House.  It's similar to flying a confederate flag.

That's absurb.

You can find a picture of a black dude with a confederate flag too .  .  . but it doesn't change the well established meaning of the symbol.

As mentioned in my post, when you associate with a symbol of racism and then do something publicly that seems racist you will likely get some backlash.  I have no problem with people wearing symbols of hate like a MAGA hat or a swastika . . . but I do take issue with the pretense of surprise when the public is suspicious of their intentions.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #231 on: January 26, 2019, 05:12:43 PM »
Wearing a MAGA hat is effectively an admission of racism.  The MAGA hat is the symbol of the unabashed racist currently in the White House.  It's similar to flying a confederate flag.

That's absurb.

You can find a picture of a black dude with a confederate flag too .  .  . but it doesn't change the well established meaning of the symbol.

As mentioned in my post, when you associate with a symbol of racism and then do something publicly that seems racist you will likely get some backlash.  I have no problem with people wearing symbols of hate like a MAGA hat or a swastika . . . but I do take issue with the pretense of surprise when the public is suspicious of their intentions.

Mark Robinson is a well know conspiracy theorist gun nut who rips on gays, spews anti-Muslim rehetoric. Any one who disagrees with him is a Marxist. For fun tin foil hat reading check out his views on the Black Panther movie. I think the MAGA hat and tin foil hat are interchangeable. I guess DreamFIRE was trying to prove you right?

dang1

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 127
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #232 on: January 26, 2019, 05:49:22 PM »
MAGA - More Are Getting Arrested

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2019, 06:58:50 PM »
Wearing a MAGA hat is effectively an admission of racism.  The MAGA hat is the symbol of the unabashed racist currently in the White House.  It's similar to flying a confederate flag.

That's absurb.

You can find a picture of a black dude with a confederate flag too .  .  . but it doesn't change the well established meaning of the symbol.

As mentioned in my post, when you associate with a symbol of racism and then do something publicly that seems racist you will likely get some backlash.  I have no problem with people wearing symbols of hate like a MAGA hat or a swastika . . . but I do take issue with the pretense of surprise when the public is suspicious of their intentions.

Mark Robinson is a well know conspiracy theorist gun nut who rips on gays, spews anti-Muslim rehetoric. Any one who disagrees with him is a Marxist.

The way you are down-talking this black man makes you sound racist.

The point I was trying to make was that MAGA is a pro-American message that has nothing to do with racism.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2019, 07:03:26 PM »
Wearing a MAGA hat is effectively an admission of racism.  The MAGA hat is the symbol of the unabashed racist currently in the White House.  It's similar to flying a confederate flag.

That's absurb.

You can find a picture of a black dude with a confederate flag too .  .  . but it doesn't change the well established meaning of the symbol.

I have no problem with people wearing symbols of hate like a MAGA hat or a swastika

The point I'm trying to make is that MAGA is a pro-American message that has nothing to do with racism.  Since you're Canadian, I guess you wouldn't look favorably on anything pro-American, so it make sense.  Confederate flags and swastikas have no relevance.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #235 on: January 26, 2019, 07:50:05 PM »
The way you are down-talking this black man makes you sound racist.

I talked about his views, not about his skin color. You associating it with his skin color doesn't make me sound racist.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5995
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #236 on: January 26, 2019, 08:04:13 PM »
The way you are down-talking this black man makes you sound racist.

I talked about his views, not about his skin color. You associating it with his skin color doesn't make me sound racist.

This meme is even more ridiculous when you look at it without reference to race - the MAGA dude is accusing Alyssa Milano of being a pedophile rapist...

partgypsy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #237 on: January 26, 2019, 08:16:28 PM »
This is the only one I could find, but there was similar graffitti on a jewish center in a college as well. Same type of stuff.
http://www.dbknews.com/2017/04/18/trump-chalking-umd-stamp/

There has definitely been an uptick in hate crime since Trump has been elected.

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2018/12/03/hate-crimes-increasing-likely-realize/
https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-04-20/they-spewed-hate-then-they-punctuated-it-president-s-name

When many of these hate crimes are committed, there is reference to Trump, including Maga.
Maybe you need to tell these people, since they didn't get the message?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nr2LWcsTCE

palerider1858

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #238 on: January 27, 2019, 03:16:33 PM »
What really sucks is the term "racist" or "racism" has been used so freely in bullshit political banter that it has lost it's meaning. It holds the same value as "you're mean" today. We all know whoever brings it up first is a virtue signalling weirdo.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #239 on: January 27, 2019, 03:34:51 PM »
What really sucks is the term "racist" or "racism" has been used so freely in bullshit political banter that it has lost it's meaning. It holds the same value as "you're mean" today. We all know whoever brings it up first is a virtue signalling weirdo.

Hm.

So, racism isnít real anymore? Itís just a bunch of people wanting to feel smug?

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #240 on: January 27, 2019, 03:38:42 PM »
What really sucks is the term "racist" or "racism" has been used so freely in bullshit political banter that it has lost it's meaning. It holds the same value as "you're mean" today. We all know whoever brings it up first is a virtue signalling weirdo.

You're not kidding.  That's true 99% of the time. Those on the left use the term as a common talking point to try to shut down those they don't agree with, when racism has nothing to do with the point being discussed.  It's easier for them to resort to insults and attacks than to try to come up with a rational argument.  When someone states that "making America great" is racist, that's absolutely ridiculous.  I'm not sure how any patriotic American could think such a thing for real, so it's the partisan B.S. or anti-American rhetoric talking.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #241 on: January 27, 2019, 03:44:40 PM »
What really sucks is the term "racist" or "racism" has been used so freely in bullshit political banter that it has lost it's meaning. It holds the same value as "you're mean" today. We all know whoever brings it up first is a virtue signalling weirdo.

You're not kidding.  That's true 99% of the time. Those on the left use the term as a common talking point to try to shut down those they don't agree with, when racism has nothing to do with the point being discussed.  It's easier for them to resort to insults and attacks than to try to come up with a rational argument.  When someone states that "making America great" is racist, that's absolutely ridiculous.  I'm not sure how any patriotic American could think such a thing for real, so it's the partisan B.S. or anti-American rhetoric talking.

When was America great? I mean, what time period are we talking about going back to?

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #242 on: January 27, 2019, 03:57:00 PM »
What really sucks is the term "racist" or "racism" has been used so freely in bullshit political banter that it has lost it's meaning. It holds the same value as "you're mean" today. We all know whoever brings it up first is a virtue signalling weirdo.
I'm not sure how any patriotic American could think such a thing for real, so it's the partisan B.S. or anti-American rhetoric talking.

One must appreciate the irony.

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #243 on: January 27, 2019, 03:57:33 PM »
What really sucks is the term "racist" or "racism" has been used so freely in bullshit political banter that it has lost it's meaning. It holds the same value as "you're mean" today. We all know whoever brings it up first is a virtue signalling weirdo.

Move over everyone, heavy hitter coming through. Anyone wondered why it was OK for some March Leaders to openly support anti-Semites and say hateful things against Jews? 
Racism today is defined as uni-directional and only possible from white to minorities (namely ONLY blacks, latinos, "browns") , ie, blacks could never be racist to whites by their definition. Quite convenient isn't it?

This, of course, is utter bullshit. The racism rule must be the same for everyone for the word to actually carry weight again. This is a case of "trojan horse words", activists took words that had one meaning and twisted them to fit their own narratives. Many more of these trojan horse words exist today, for example, inclusion, equity, etc.

Now back to the incident itself:

1. Phillips was a marine, his record was less than stellar, but he did serve for 4 years nonetheless.

2. There has been no discernible audio implicating the kids chanting build the/that wall, weeks after the incident took place. I think we can lay this accusation to rest, if one wishes to prove it actually happened, let them present the evidence, and not just the chant was "Not implausible given their politics, but the videos don't ... rule it out."

3. MAGA hats is a symbol of hate to some people. This I fully understand, but do not project your own feelings to how everyone thinks. As an individual, I will accept the hat to be a symbol of hate if and when their supporters carried out their version of "final solution" and murdered millions of minorities for no reason other than their race and gender and sexual orientation.

4. Some kids looked like were doing chops with their hands, I don't support that.

5. The man that shouted for whites to go back to Europe, I will do you one better: EVERYONE GO BACK TO AFRICA WHERE WE ALL CAME FROM.

6. Walking up to someone and beating a drum in their face is not ok. That's textbook behavior of being confrontational and looking  for trouble.

7. Sandman did not make way for Phillips. Why should he? He knew nothing about the man that approached him, why did he need to move and make way for this person?

8. The lawsuits (so i have been told) are coming, that ought to be quite entertaining.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #244 on: January 27, 2019, 04:05:15 PM »
2. There has been no discernible audio implicating the kids chanting build the/that wall, weeks after the incident took place. I think we can lay this accusation to rest, if one wishes to prove it actually happened, let them present the evidence, and not just the chant was "Not implausible given their politics, but the videos don't ... rule it out."

This was posted earlier. Some of the same kids harassing a couple girls. "Build the wall" is clearly heard. So is "slut!"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Edit to add you'll need the scroll down to the 8 second video clip. It's not the main video that pops up.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 04:08:09 PM by MasterStache »

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #245 on: January 27, 2019, 04:32:29 PM »
2. There has been no discernible audio implicating the kids chanting build the/that wall, weeks after the incident took place. I think we can lay this accusation to rest, if one wishes to prove it actually happened, let them present the evidence, and not just the chant was "Not implausible given their politics, but the videos don't ... rule it out."

This was posted earlier. Some of the same kids harassing a couple girls. "Build the wall" is clearly heard. So is "slut!"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Edit to add you'll need the scroll down to the 8 second video clip. It's not the main video that pops up.

I saw the video the day it came out. I think based on the hats (not red maga hats but the white/blue hats) those are likely kids from covington. I did not however, hear "build the wall". I heard "Who*e", which would fit nicely with the "sl*t" insult. It also doesnt make much sense to say build the wall to the girls.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #246 on: January 27, 2019, 04:45:11 PM »
2. There has been no discernible audio implicating the kids chanting build the/that wall, weeks after the incident took place. I think we can lay this accusation to rest, if one wishes to prove it actually happened, let them present the evidence, and not just the chant was "Not implausible given their politics, but the videos don't ... rule it out."

This was posted earlier. Some of the same kids harassing a couple girls. "Build the wall" is clearly heard. So is "slut!"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-philips-video-nick-sandman-native-american-man-maga-trump-a8740876.html

Edit to add you'll need the scroll down to the 8 second video clip. It's not the main video that pops up.

I saw the video the day it came out. I think based on the hats (not red maga hats but the white/blue hats) those are likely kids from covington. I did not however, hear "build the wall". I heard "Who*e", which would fit nicely with the "sl*t" insult. It also doesnt make much sense to say build the wall to the girls.

You are right it doesn't make sense. But it doesn't make sense to say "MAGA" either. Problem is the girls were long past the kids and we have no ideal what sort of exchange leading up to this point. My guess is it was nasty enough the girls felt the need to record. I've stopped it at various times and slowed it down/slow reverse and can see 3 kids yelling (have their hands around their mouths) and can make out 3 red MAGA hats, a couple white hats and 1 blue hat. It's a bit difficult to make out among the yelling but you can hear "build the wall" with "the wall" being very prominent. 

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 631
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #247 on: January 27, 2019, 05:28:15 PM »
This is what I heard off the 8 sec video, without using any fancy voice analytic software:

Boys: "NOW" "FAGG*T" "What a WHO*E" "Sl*t"
Girls to themselves: "(mockingly) MAGA" "I am so tired of this already" "Yaaa"

I think what sounded "what a who*e" to me sounded like "build a wall" to you and the prominent part sound like "Who*e". I also did not hear "maga" from the boys. The presence of both red and white/blue hats to me means those were very likely a group of Covington boys. The white/blue hat is quite unique to Covington.

EDIT: I want to reiterate my main point on Holocaust Memorial Day. In this incident, Sandman was vilified for no reason, at least not by any objective standard. MAGA hats is a symbol of hate to some people. This I fully understand, but do not project your own feelings to how everyone should think. As an individual, I will accept the hat to be a symbol of hate if and when their supporters carried out their version of "final solution" and murdered millions of minorities for no reason other than their race and gender and sexual orientation. Until that happens, take your religion and get out of my face.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 05:47:10 PM by anisotropy »

By the River

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 143
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #248 on: January 28, 2019, 06:59:37 AM »
Saw this over the weekend and thought it relates well to last week's videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxxKUikZ7YY&feature=youtu.be


GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 12531
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Have You Jumped Off The Trump Wagon Yet?
« Reply #249 on: January 28, 2019, 07:12:44 AM »
I want to reiterate my main point on Holocaust Memorial Day. In this incident, Sandman was vilified for no reason, at least not by any objective standard. MAGA hats is a symbol of hate to some people. This I fully understand, but do not project your own feelings to how everyone should think. As an individual, I will accept the hat to be a symbol of hate if and when their supporters carried out their version of "final solution" and murdered millions of minorities for no reason other than their race and gender and sexual orientation.Until that happens, take your religion and get out of my face.

Genocide is the only form of hate that you accept as legitimate?