Post by: ManlyFather on December 26, 2017, 01:40:42 PM
Has everyone always been so soft? Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?
/rant
Post by: ketchup on December 26, 2017, 01:43:22 PM
Post by: ManlyFather on December 26, 2017, 04:44:40 PM
I read through most of the thread you linked - interesting stuff, and I agree with the softy comments.
Mods - feel free to delete this thread as it looks like this topic has already been fleshed out relatively recently.
Post by: Kris on December 26, 2017, 04:56:50 PM
Thanks, Ketchup. I'm a bit new to the forums (I avoided them while I read the blog in entirety). I was expecting more folks to have frugal tendencies and/or interesting insights into life. What I have noticed is quite a few posters that try to justify bad decisions with poor logic.
I read through most of the thread you linked - interesting stuff, and I agree with the softy comments.
Mods - feel free to delete this thread as it looks like this topic has already been fleshed out relatively recently.
The problem is, every time there is an article about MMM, a bunch of people come here and sign up to the forum without really reading his blog or engaging with what he is really advocating. So yeah, there are a ton of people here who can best be described as “want to retire early, but don’t want to change their lives to get there.”
Post by: Fireball on December 26, 2017, 07:19:28 PM
Thanks, Ketchup. I'm a bit new to the forums (I avoided them while I read the blog in entirety). I was expecting more folks to have frugal tendencies and/or interesting insights into life. What I have noticed is quite a few posters that try to justify bad decisions with poor logic.
I read through most of the thread you linked - interesting stuff, and I agree with the softy comments.
Mods - feel free to delete this thread as it looks like this topic has already been fleshed out relatively recently.
The problem is, every time there is an article about MMM, a bunch of people come here and sign up to the forum without really reading his blog or engaging with what he is really advocating. So yeah, there are a ton of people here who can best be described as “want to retire early, but don’t want to change their lives to get there.”
Yes. I noticed a huge shift after the Tim Ferris interview.
Post by: marty998 on December 26, 2017, 09:08:06 PM
Regardless, the larger this community grows, the more it will reflect the mainstream.
Forums, as with the economy, and as with life, run in cycles.
Post by: Noodle on December 26, 2017, 10:43:57 PM
I think a variety of things have happened--a lot of the enthusiastic early birds have moved through their ER journeys and are busy elsewhere these days. Mr Money Mustache posts much more rarely, and his posts tend to discuss specialist projects which are fun to read about but less likely to get people fired up to imitate him. The population on the forums has grown much bigger and varied, and there are a lot more people who want to reach some degree of FI but aren't focused on RE--which is a much lower bar which accommodates more consumerist behavior. I also have some (probably unprovable) theories about the national mood--first, that the blog started in 2011, when a lot of people were still feeling the after-effects of the 2008-2009 economic downturn. With six years of economic improvement, people feel less at the mercy of their employers and less motivated to pursue FIRE at all costs. Second, I think that the MMM exaggerated-for-effect rhetoric lands differently than it did six years ago. "Face-punching" used to be a silly way to make a point, and now, when so many people feel concerned about the lack of civility in the United States, it doesn't feel as light-hearted.
Post by: lexde on December 27, 2017, 07:27:48 AM
I don’t know if we need a separate sub forum for hardcore or veteran mustachians, or what, but I would like to see some of the original views and voices come back.
Post by: ketchup on December 27, 2017, 07:54:16 AM
Post by: golden1 on December 27, 2017, 08:04:17 PM
Post by: MDM on December 27, 2017, 08:41:40 PM
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog. It isn’t about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.That is a defensible position.
One can also note the first two sentences of the blog, from Meet Mr. Money Mustache (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/06/meet-mr-money-mustache/):
Quote
"What do you mean you retired at 30?”
This is a blog about money.
Post by: zoltani on December 28, 2017, 10:09:59 AM
Most of us come here for tips on how to organize our financial lives. We take in that information then make our own decisions based on our own desired lifestyle and comfort. What that means is up to each of us to decide. The point is to make conscious financial decisions to help you along the path towards your goals, whether that be paying off debt, saving for retirement, or other.
As far as reading the blog, yeah I've been reading the early articles since day 1, but lately the blog has gone downhill, IMO.
Post by: minority_finance_mo on December 28, 2017, 10:25:12 AM
My inner dialogue is much closer to MMM.
Post by: ManlyFather on December 28, 2017, 12:55:05 PM
Do you need validation of your lifestyle?
No.
Quote
Why would you care what others post about an article?
I'll answer a question with a question: why do you care about what I think?
Quote
I actually hate the anti-mustachian hall of fame. I think it is petty and judgmental.
Good for you?
Quote
I think the need to post articles to point fingers and make fun points to a need for validation of your choices.
It sounds like you're pointing your finger at me, and now I'm confused....
Quote
Most of us come here for tips on how to organize our financial lives. We take in that information then make our own decisions based on our own desired lifestyle and comfort. What that means is up to each of us to decide. The point is to make conscious financial decisions to help you along the path towards your goals, whether that be paying off debt, saving for retirement, or other.
You can learn from both bad and good examples of behavior.
Quote
As far as reading the blog, yeah I've been reading the early articles since day 1, but lately the blog has gone downhill, IMO.
It's good to have opinions about things.
Joking aside, I'm not sure if you're trolling or not.
Post by: PKFFW on December 28, 2017, 02:44:27 PM
Read the blog, read the forum, make your decisions, live your life. What does it matter if others on the forum are "soft" and not as "hard core" as you?
Can't comment specifically on whether the "Hall of shame" board has "gone soft" as I've never entered it or read a thing in it. I don't see the point of a board specifically about shaming people for their choices, even if it's all done in jest. If someone seeks advice on their choices then by all means give it in a constructive and respectful way. Otherwise it's just trying to make yourself feel good by crapping on other people for their choices.
As for the blog, I still enjoy most articles in an abstract intellectual way. However, I do agree that the blog has changed focus a bit and most of the articles are now about specialist projects I have no interest in pursuing. I can understand why that is too. There are only so many ways one can say the same thing before it just gets boring and repetitive. Spend way less than you earn, invest the rest, build up investments until the returns pay for your lifestyle and viola, you are FI and RE if you feel like it. Keep repeating that ad nauseam and pretty soon the wouldn't be a blog at all.
Post by: 2Birds1Stone on December 28, 2017, 03:02:27 PM
Post by: Syonyk on December 28, 2017, 06:38:12 PM
That said, I also think that MMM himself may have gone a bit softer in his recent posts and endeavors, too. When you gain this much popularity it’s hard to avoid becoming a bit more moderate, I think, since the ideas get diluted in the mainstream.
My guess is that it's pretty hard to keep a nose to the grindstone laser focus on low spending when you're earning around half a million a year talking not spending much...
One other thing that I've seen is that the "MMM Approach" works very well if you live in suburbia. It doesn't work exactly the same way everywhere, and for a while on the forums, talking about anything that wasn't "bikeable suburbia" got some pretty hostile responses. You still get plenty of that for talking about trucks in rural areas...
Post by: minority_finance_mo on December 29, 2017, 10:40:54 AM
One other thing that I've seen is that the "MMM Approach" works very well if you live in suburbia. It doesn't work exactly the same way everywhere, and for a while on the forums, talking about anything that wasn't "bikeable suburbia" got some pretty hostile responses.
Also works pretty well in very urban areas, like NYC where there tends to be a lot of disposable income waste.
Post by: dougules on December 29, 2017, 11:07:23 AM
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog. It isn’t about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.
I also don't get how people miss the level of sarcasm and caricature.
Post by: wordnerd on December 29, 2017, 02:20:11 PM
I actually hate the anti-mustachian hall of fame. I think it is petty and judgmental. I think the need to post articles to point fingers and make fun points to a need for validation of your choices.
I'm going to defend the Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy (I think that's the right name?). Self-righteousness is indeed dangerous and should be used in moderation. But...our friends/family/neighbors/co-workers/advertisers/media/culture-at-large encourage us to spend and consume at ridiculous levels. Gentle mockery of these ideas (and how they play out in others' behavior) is a way to keep perspective, to remember that average consumption is, in fact, ridiculous. If you're spending all of your time mocking others' choices, that should prompt some self-reflection. But a little judgment? Just one way to stay sane in an insane world.
Post by: jinga nation on December 29, 2017, 02:23:47 PM
It's also a refuge to vent out the stupidity observed on a daily basis. Sometimes you just gotta let it out and let it go.I actually hate the anti-mustachian hall of fame. I think it is petty and judgmental. I think the need to post articles to point fingers and make fun points to a need for validation of your choices.
I'm going to defend the Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy (I think that's the right name?). Self-righteousness is indeed dangerous and should be used in moderation. But...our friends/family/neighbors/co-workers/advertisers/media/culture-at-large encourage us to spend and consume at ridiculous levels. Gentle mockery of these ideas (and how they play out in others' behavior) is a way to keep perspective, to remember that average consumption is, in fact, ridiculous. If you're spending all of your time mocking others' choices, that should prompt some self-reflection. But a little judgment? Just one way to stay sane in an insane world.
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 02, 2018, 04:08:45 AM
Post by: Dicey on January 02, 2018, 10:53:32 PM
I was never that hard-core in that I don't bicycle (I used to ride seriously for recreation, but not to commute to work.) and I never achieved a super high savings rate. I was well on my way to FIRE before it had an acronym. What resonated most for me was finding a tribe of reasonably like-minded individuals. I was no longer a lone voice, an oddball, a frugal freak...It made a huge difference in my life to find this place.
Pre- and post-FIRE, I choose to participate in this forum in hopes that it will make someone else's path easier.
This year, I was called out for even suggesting that something was face punch worthy. (It totally was.) My matter-of-fact delivery has been criticized more than once, so I've tried to tone it down to suit a new audience. Everything in life changes. This forum has, too. I still believe the pursuit of FIRE is an incredibly worthwhile endeavor, so I'm planning on
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 03, 2018, 10:33:12 AM
I started reading the blog very close to its inception. I lurked on the forum before joining in April, 2012.
I was never that hard-core in that I don't bicycle (I used to ride seriously for recreation, but not to commute to work.) and I never achieved a super high savings rate. I was well on my way to FIRE before it had an acronym. What resonated most for me was finding a tribe of reasonably like-minded individuals. I was no longer a lone voice, an oddball, a frugal freak...It made a huge difference in my life to find this place.
Pre- and post-FIRE, I choose to participate in this forum in hopes that it will make someone else's path easier.
This year, I was called out for even suggesting that something was face punch worthy. (It totally was.) My matter-of-fact delivery has been criticized more than once, so I've tried to tone it down to suit a new audience. Everything in life changes. This forum has, too. I still believe the pursuit of FIRE is an incredibly worthwhile endeavor, so I'm planning onhangingtiptoeing around for the foreseeable future.
Hi Dicey, this was my biggest benefit too, especially after years of Ex commenting negatively on my tight-wad ways, even though he benefited from them. Hey, there are people even more conscious about how they spend money, I'm not totally weird! Yay! And by some standards here I am a McSpendy-pants. It is all about priorities.
Post by: Pigeon on January 03, 2018, 10:49:23 AM
You can decide to moderate the hell out of the forum, so that the less dedicated leave or just stop posting. Over-moderation is pretty stifling though, and you tend to drive off a large percentage of all readers, even if they are True Believers.
If you don't opt for heavy handed moderation, you will naturally hear from the non-orthodox in increasing numbers.
I'm in the camp of non-orthodox. I'm frugal, am very much FI, but not RE, and won't retire for a few more years. I like the forum because I am a penny pincher, and I've learned about investing here, as well as getting some useful cheapskate tips. But I'm not going carless, kicking my kids out the day they turn 18 or turning the heat down to 55.
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 03, 2018, 10:50:41 AM
Post by: FiveSigmas on January 03, 2018, 12:55:20 PM
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.
Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/)). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.
BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.
Post by: ManlyFather on January 03, 2018, 01:43:52 PM
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.
Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/)). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.
BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.
Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing! Poor Sol was the only voice of reason. I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 03, 2018, 01:51:52 PM
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.
Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/)). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.
BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Advertising on this forum? Is that what people see when they don't use ad-block plug-ins? I vaguely remember my life before that. And taboola block plug-ins. And before I switched to commercial-free satellite radio. And before I switched to using an over-the-air antenna with DVR to skip all the commercials. Etc., etc., etc.
I couldn't block absolutely every advertisement in the entire world, but I blocked enough of them to basically remove myself from the propaganda. When I get to the movies early (with a gift card) and see the commercials before the coming attractions, I am shocked by what I see. Particularly the advertisements telling people that nobody is going to want to fuck them unless they use their product.
Post by: FiveSigmas on January 03, 2018, 02:00:35 PM
And before I switched to commercial-free satellite radio.
Do you prefer Sirius or XM?
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 03, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
And before I switched to commercial-free satellite radio.
Do you prefer Sirius or XM?
They are basically the same thing, since they are owned by the same company and have almost all the same exact channels. I got a used Sirius radio with lifetime service off the internet for $400 a few years back and after two years of service it paid for itself, so now I have unlimited commercial-free radio for as long as the radio lasts (or as long as Sirius lasts, whichever is first.)
If I'm completely honest, it actually paid for itself probably within a few months just from the decrease in my spending once I was no longer hearing commercials. I was shocked when I noticed that.
I almost never hear commercials for anything. People will talk about products or funny commercials or whatever and I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
Post by: ketchup on January 03, 2018, 02:15:03 PM
I'll piggyback on this and say that one of the best things one can do is eliminate advertising of all kinds from their life to the best of their ability.I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.
Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/)). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.
BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.
No commercial-containing TV.
No commercial-containing radio.
Use an ad-blocker in your web browser (uBlock origin).
No magazines.
Don't even pretend to read the physical junk mail. Put a recycling bin right by your door to dump it in before looking at your mail.
Unsubscribe from all the email lists.
No ad-supported versions of apps/services (like Pandora).
No Facebook/Instragram/Twitter/etc.
Don't read blogs about how awesome new things are (tech gadgets, media, etc.)
Bonus points:
Less-"realistic" media with no/minimal product placement (sorry Adam Sandler fans)
No non-text (print or online) news.
Avoid driving routes with billboards.
I do most of this. I'm sure I'm forgetting some good ones.
When I get to the movies early (with a gift card) and see the commercials before the coming attractions, I am shocked by what I see. Particularly the advertisements telling people that nobody is going to want to fuck them unless they use their product.This too, absolutely. When I saw Star Wars a few weeks ago (big line so we got in early), I could not believe the fucking Coke and M&Ms ads before the trailers. It seemed like a joke.
Related to movies though: I was never a huge consumer by any means, but more consciously eliminating advertising from my life has meant that I don't give a shit about most new movies anymore. I used to see 12-15 movies a year back in the day, and I think the only ones I saw in theaters in 2017 were Star Wars and Dunkirk (Christopher Nolan could point a camera at a turd for two hours and I'd go see it).
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 03, 2018, 02:51:16 PM
Don't read blogs about how awesome new things are (tech gadgets, media, etc.)
Oh God, the tech gadget blogs are horrible. So many tech products are absolutely worthless, but people spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on that crap.
The worst was when those ridiculous AirPods came out for the new iPhone. Instead of simply being able to buy a $10 pair of earbuds to replace your missing or broken ones, now you have to use AirPods that cost $159, because the iPhone no longer has a headphone jack. Then, you can inevitably lose the AirPods and pay $159 more. All for something that isn't any better than the cheap earbuds. And consumers eat this crap up. They line up to buy it.
And don't get me started on the $1000 iPhone. "It has facial recognition." What difference does that make? How does that improve anybody's life.
This is what we got instead of moon colonies. Jesus.
When I get to the movies early (with a gift card) and see the commercials before the coming attractions, I am shocked by what I see. Particularly the advertisements telling people that nobody is going to want to fuck them unless they use their product.This too, absolutely. When I saw Star Wars a few weeks ago (big line so we got in early), I could not believe the fucking Coke and M&Ms ads before the trailers. It seemed like a joke.
Related to movies though: I was never a huge consumer by any means, but more consciously eliminating advertising from my life has meant that I don't give a shit about most new movies anymore. I used to see 12-15 movies a year back in the day, and I think the only ones I saw in theaters in 2017 were Star Wars and Dunkirk (Christopher Nolan could point a camera at a turd for two hours and I'd go see it).
Yeah, I don't go to many movies anymore either. I don't even trust Rotten Tomatoes to let me know which movies are good anymore, because some professional reviewers are afraid to state their true opinions about films from some major studios. (coughDisneycough)
Besides, I've been alive long enough now to see these remade movies the previous two times they came out, so I'm done with them. I will say that Marvel movies are a freaking blast, though. Mostly because Marvel has been left to do their own thing by Disney.
Post by: ketchup on January 03, 2018, 03:14:23 PM
The worst was when those ridiculous AirPods came out for the new iPhone. Instead of simply being able to buy a $10 pair of earbuds to replace your missing or broken ones, now you have to use AirPods that cost $159, because the iPhone no longer has a headphone jack. Then, you can inevitably lose the AirPods and pay $159 more. All for something that isn't any better than the cheap earbuds. And consumers eat this crap up. They line up to buy it.I'm just salty that I need a fucking Lightning-headphone adapter (that can break) to plug my iPhone 7 into my car. Really two adapters, since I'm already using a cassette tape adapter (that can also break). And then I still can't charge it at the same time. Innovation.
Post by: bluebelle on January 03, 2018, 03:52:52 PM
I think more high income folks have found their way here (or at least they're posting now). And I presume they are as shocked and appalled by some of their colleagues as I am of mine. (I know of two people that set their alarms for 2:45am eastern to be among the first to preorder the IPhoneX, with perfectly functioning IPhone 7s - my IPhone 5 is working just fine, thanks for asking)
Everything is relative. Is a couple with a combined family gross income of $270K soft because they spend $60-65K? I know many on here would say yes, because there's "so much waste" in their budget. And to someone making $50K, there is alot of fluff, but in my income bracket, I'm pretty conservative. My best friend teases me about my price matching at the grocery store.
Am I "too soft" to be "allowed" here on the forum? Maybe, but I don't think so. I like to think the forum is more inclusive than that. Folks are welcome to ignore my posts, just as I can skip over ones that don't do it for me.
Whatever floats your boat folks.
Post by: zinnie on January 03, 2018, 05:33:04 PM
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.
Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/)). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.
BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.
Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing! Poor Sol was the only voice of reason. I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.
I remember seeing this thread, but I never clicked on it. I always assume it is consumerist nonsense when I see discussions of expensive products on here. But the Vitamix thread was quite the gem! I'm glad Sol held down the fort :)
I think things have softened over the last few years. I've been a lurker for years, and only created an account a few months ago. I was always hesitant to post for fear of being ridiculed for not being hardcore enough.
I think more high income folks have found their way here (or at least they're posting now). And I presume they are as shocked and appalled by some of their colleagues as I am of mine. (I know of two people that set their alarms for 2:45am eastern to be among the first to preorder the IPhoneX, with perfectly functioning IPhone 7s - my IPhone 5 is working just fine, thanks for asking)
Everything is relative. Is a couple with a combined family gross income of $270K soft because they spend $60-65K? I know many on here would say yes, because there's "so much waste" in their budget. And to someone making $50K, there is alot of fluff, but in my income bracket, I'm pretty conservative. My best friend teases me about my price matching at the grocery store.
Am I "too soft" to be "allowed" here on the forum? Maybe, but I don't think so. I like to think the forum is more inclusive than that. Folks are welcome to ignore my posts, just as I can skip over ones that don't do it for me.
Whatever floats your boat folks.
Added bold to respond to certain parts. I don't think it has to do with income level, as this forum has generally been composed of high-income people. Even with extreme frugality you can't retire in less than ten years if you aren't making very much to begin with. I think the change has been in how hardcore people are. The motto is "financial freedom through badassity," i.e. being as frugal/environmentally conscious as you possibly can while still living an awesome life. So a higher income doesn't justify more spending in the MMM philosophy. As you know there is also the concept of the "face punch," or calling out/ shaming other people or yourself for unnecessary spending. In my view the entire tone of the place was intended to be pretty harsh, albeit in a joking/collegial sort of way.
I agree with you that there aren't, nor should there be, any rules about who is allowed on the forum. At the same time, don't be hurt or get defensive if you are shamed for unnecessary spending (I mean the general "you," of course.) I am sure there are a lot of places where people will pat you on the back and tell you that you made a really smart choice buying that Vitamix blender. It just feels like we are completely abandoning the concept of mustachianism if we allow that place to be here...
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 03, 2018, 06:49:29 PM
The worst was when those ridiculous AirPods came out for the new iPhone. Instead of simply being able to buy a $10 pair of earbuds to replace your missing or broken ones, now you have to use AirPods that cost $159, because the iPhone no longer has a headphone jack. Then, you can inevitably lose the AirPods and pay $159 more. All for something that isn't any better than the cheap earbuds. And consumers eat this crap up. They line up to buy it.I'm just salty that I need a fucking Lightning-headphone adapter (that can break) to plug my iPhone 7 into my car. Really two adapters, since I'm already using a cassette tape adapter (that can also break). And then I still can't charge it at the same time. Innovation.
Yep. "Let's see how ridiculously difficult we can make it for people so they will feel compelled to shell out $159 for ear buds." It's such a racket. The whole tech movement. Very rarely do I notice something that is actually worth upgrading my equipment for, such as the changeover from 3G to 4GLTE or the change from 32 bit to 64 bit devices. Almost all other "technological advances" (especially in mobile devices) is completely worthless bullshit that doesn't make a lick of difference.
Post by: ManlyFather on January 04, 2018, 07:54:36 AM
The best part about this excessive spending on iCrap by the masses is that my VTSAX continues to make a bunch of money - thanks in large part to about 3% of this fund being Apple stock.The worst was when those ridiculous AirPods came out for the new iPhone. Instead of simply being able to buy a $10 pair of earbuds to replace your missing or broken ones, now you have to use AirPods that cost $159, because the iPhone no longer has a headphone jack. Then, you can inevitably lose the AirPods and pay $159 more. All for something that isn't any better than the cheap earbuds. And consumers eat this crap up. They line up to buy it.I'm just salty that I need a fucking Lightning-headphone adapter (that can break) to plug my iPhone 7 into my car. Really two adapters, since I'm already using a cassette tape adapter (that can also break). And then I still can't charge it at the same time. Innovation.
Yep. "Let's see how ridiculously difficult we can make it for people so they will feel compelled to shell out $159 for ear buds." It's such a racket. The whole tech movement. Very rarely do I notice something that is actually worth upgrading my equipment for, such as the changeover from 3G to 4GLTE or the change from 32 bit to 64 bit devices. Almost all other "technological advances" (especially in mobile devices) is completely worthless bullshit that doesn't make a lick of difference.
Post by: Just Joe on January 04, 2018, 11:05:17 AM
No commercial-containing TV.
No commercial-containing radio.
Use an ad-blocker in your web browser (uBlock origin).
No magazines.
Don't even pretend to read the physical junk mail. Put a recycling bin right by your door to dump it in before looking at your mail.
Unsubscribe from all the email lists.
No ad-supported versions of apps/services (like Pandora).
No Facebook/Instragram/Twitter/etc.
Don't read blogs about how awesome new things are (tech gadgets, media, etc.)
Bonus points:
Less-"realistic" media with no/minimal product placement (sorry Adam Sandler fans)
No non-text (print or online) news.
Avoid driving routes with billboards.
I do most of this. I'm sure I'm forgetting some good ones.
When I was living overseas years ago pre-internet I found myself unexpectedly insulated from most advertising, politics, pop culture, etc b/c it took a bigger effort to participate. The resulting mental free space was really great and I prefer it that way even today.
We've done much of what you detailed. Added benefit it has really helped us raise our children to not be spendypants. They have nice things but we aren't chasing every dollar and diming fad or brand.
Post by: Davnasty on January 04, 2018, 11:18:48 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/347637.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/347637.stm)
Post by: BookLoverL on January 04, 2018, 12:04:51 PM
Regarding advertising: if someone can't avoid seeing all adverts for whatever reason (eg. family or friends putting them on), they could try talking back to the TV/whatever, being like, "Nobody needs that! What a silly product!". Do this even if you're not totally sure you'll need the product.
"Another sofa sale? Nobody needs any sofas! Who in the country doesn't have a sofa yet who wants one?"
"Oh, look, it's another advert for plastic junk."
"Ha, who would be tempted by this!"
etc.
Try and get in the mindset that adverts are a load of rubbish and they won't work on you. It's the same as how I was raised to eat healthily by being elitist against junk food. "McDonalds! The bread tastes like cardboard! Why would I want to eat there?"
Post by: ysette9 on January 04, 2018, 12:14:05 PM
This is coming from one of the high-income softies on the forum as well. Dude, if we have used cars with our crazy net worth then you in negative territory certainly can too.
Post by: Just Joe on January 04, 2018, 12:42:09 PM
Even though I only made an account recently, I've been lurking since 2015, and I definitely think there are a few examples I've seen of clearly luxury purchases being justified, such as the blender above. Maybe it stands out more to me, since I've had pretty low income the whole time, so it was more important to cut right back on my expenses.
Regarding advertising: if someone can't avoid seeing all adverts for whatever reason (eg. family or friends putting them on), they could try talking back to the TV/whatever, being like, "Nobody needs that! What a silly product!". Do this even if you're not totally sure you'll need the product.
"Another sofa sale? Nobody needs any sofas! Who in the country doesn't have a sofa yet who wants one?"
"Oh, look, it's another advert for plastic junk."
"Ha, who would be tempted by this!"
etc.
Try and get in the mindset that adverts are a load of rubbish and they won't work on you. It's the same as how I was raised to eat healthily by being elitist against junk food. "McDonalds! The bread tastes like cardboard! Why would I want to eat there?"
Be careful though. One of our children is a bit of a contrarian and says they LIKE commercials just to break with dear old dad. I think if I was to preach too directly I might push that child the wrong direction - towards consumerism! Consequently I'm beating around the bush a little more. I try to quietly preach the total cost of ownership lesson.
There is a literal mansion near us that this child has admired over the years. I've asked questions a few times if they knew what it would cost to heat and cool the place. Or to furnish it. Or repair it. No, I explain I don't know either but I'd guess it would be alot compared to our house.
Or on the topic of the supercars they admire on TV. Wow that Lamborghini is beautiful - did you hear what he said? The TV guy said the tires cost $XXXX dollars a set and it can consume a whole tank of fuel in mere minutes at full throttle. Expressing amazement and agreement without disagreeing about the wow factor of the car.
The teen/tween years can be difficult. ;)
As our kids have gotten older they have noticed how much advertising breaks into the TV watching experience when we stay somewhere with cable/SAT TV. And the places perpetually celebrated in teen/tween entertainment like the mall just aren't the same in real life. Not the big deal.
We keep them busy with real life fun stuff though.
Post by: BookLoverL on January 04, 2018, 02:07:38 PM
Quote
Quote from: BookLoverL on Today at 07:04:51 PM
Even though I only made an account recently, I've been lurking since 2015, and I definitely think there are a few examples I've seen of clearly luxury purchases being justified, such as the blender above. Maybe it stands out more to me, since I've had pretty low income the whole time, so it was more important to cut right back on my expenses.
Regarding advertising: if someone can't avoid seeing all adverts for whatever reason (eg. family or friends putting them on), they could try talking back to the TV/whatever, being like, "Nobody needs that! What a silly product!". Do this even if you're not totally sure you'll need the product.
"Another sofa sale? Nobody needs any sofas! Who in the country doesn't have a sofa yet who wants one?"
"Oh, look, it's another advert for plastic junk."
"Ha, who would be tempted by this!"
etc.
Try and get in the mindset that adverts are a load of rubbish and they won't work on you. It's the same as how I was raised to eat healthily by being elitist against junk food. "McDonalds! The bread tastes like cardboard! Why would I want to eat there?"
Be careful though. One of our children is a bit of a contrarian and says they LIKE commercials just to break with dear old dad. I think if I was to preach too directly I might push that child the wrong direction - towards consumerism! Consequently I'm beating around the bush a little more. I try to quietly preach the total cost of ownership lesson.
There is a literal mansion near us that this child has admired over the years. I've asked questions a few times if they knew what it would cost to heat and cool the place. Or to furnish it. Or repair it. No, I explain I don't know either but I'd guess it would be alot compared to our house.
Or on the topic of the supercars they admire on TV. Wow that Lamborghini is beautiful - did you hear what he said? The TV guy said the tires cost $XXXX dollars a set and it can consume a whole tank of fuel in mere minutes at full throttle. Expressing amazement and agreement without disagreeing about the wow factor of the car.
The teen/tween years can be difficult. ;)
As our kids have gotten older they have noticed how much advertising breaks into the TV watching experience when we stay somewhere with cable/SAT TV. And the places perpetually celebrated in teen/tween entertainment like the mall just aren't the same in real life. Not the big deal.
We keep them busy with real life fun stuff though.
Oh, I don't have any kids - I'm still young. ;) I just say this stuff to myself. And sometimes my brother, who's a similar age to me.
I agree kids (and some adults) can be very contrarian. I have a little of that tendency myself occasionally. Maybe I'm annoyed at the adverts for telling me I need all that stuff when I don't? :O
Post by: galliver on January 04, 2018, 03:55:21 PM
Like, it's totally cool by me if someone wants to live in a van to save money or whatever. Just don't try to push that on others like it's the only reasonable way to live and anyone who does differently is a dolt. Also like working is The Very Worst Thing Ever and it's incomprehensible how anyone would want to do it for any length of time...I'd rather work than live in a box...I mean van...personally. And as long as I'm working, or have money in the bank, I'll consider myself able to afford sour cream for my tacos even if it's NOT on sale and costs $.50 more than the last tub, and as many pieces of fruit as I (or SO, or our guests, or hypothetical future kids) can eat. That's just how extravagant I am. Yeah. Punch me. :P
Speaking of, I think Noodle makes a good point about the format of the rhetoric.
... the blog started in 2011, when a lot of people were still feeling the after-effects of the 2008-2009 economic downturn. With six years of economic improvement, people feel less at the mercy of their employers and less motivated to pursue FIRE at all costs. Second, I think that the MMM exaggerated-for-effect rhetoric lands differently than it did six years ago. "Face-punching" used to be a silly way to make a point, and now, when so many people feel concerned about the lack of civility in the United States, it doesn't feel as light-hearted.I also suspect that a larger community in general is less amenable to more jocular interaction (more opportunities for it to get misinterpreted, people don't know each other well enough to put jokingly-offensive statements in context).
I'm here for the big ideas: money as freedom, reducing major expenses (like housing and transport), reducing consumption and minor expenses, living mindfully, finding other/different sources of joy, DIY. And while I don't have a strong opinion on the tone/attitude issue, I have seen from others that they were put off by the "hard core" approach, and perhaps afraid to post/ask for advice. It's only a joke if both parties are laughing, and a lot of people weren't laughing. I don't think that's a healthy atmosphere to create. And if the new atmosphere means people will argue about the merits of a $200 blender, perhaps lump-free smoothies are what make their life worth living? Or they make so much that $200 is minutiae in their book. I've no idea; I don't make that many smoothies, I didn't read the thread, and I have no intention to because there are plenty of more interesting discussions I can peruse when/if I want to...
Post by: zinnie on January 04, 2018, 04:55:41 PM
I am glad this thread popped up again because I have been wanting to vent. For a moment there I was the only one on a study thread of someone close to bankruptcy arguing against a new car purchase and why it is not that tough to find a decent, reliable used car. Then the awesome @Laura33 piped up and set the thread straight, but good lord.As a high-income softie with NO car knowledge, the "new cars are SO reliable" myth presented in the thread was ridiculous. If I can buy a reliable used car, anyone can. And @Laura33 always has great comments.
This is coming from one of the high-income softies on the forum as well. Dude, if we have used cars with our crazy net worth then you in negative territory certainly can too.
I think the more press MMM gets, the more the commenters will soften. I'm happy that there are still a few people just tell me I'm being ridiculous when I venture too far from the path.
Stay strong, badasses! Softies like me need to get face-punched when I start hearing about how a Vitamix will change the way I eat.
I had this same thread in mind when responding here! :)
Post by: Indexer on January 07, 2018, 04:47:27 PM
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.
Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/)). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.
BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.
Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing! Poor Sol was the only voice of reason. I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.
WOW! It's hard to believe that series of posts was on MMM. Yes, Sol did a great job holding down the fort.
Post by: Le Poisson on January 07, 2018, 06:56:51 PM
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.
Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/)). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.
BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.
Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing! Poor Sol was the only voice of reason. I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.
WOW! It's hard to believe that series of posts was on MMM. Yes, Sol did a great job holding down the fort.
I haven't been around here that much, only a few years, but in that time the forum has told me I need:
"The food Lab" Cookbook
"Instapot" pressure cooker
"Vitamix" Blender
"Honda Civic" or "Toyota Prius" car
"Somethingelse Pot" for when you are congested.
Yeah, the internal advertising is strong enough, we don't need the external stuff.
Has the forum gotten soft? Well, the guy who promoted muscle over motor is riding an E-Bike and enjoying recreational pot while considering the upside of a Tesla. We've all changed since this thing started. I like to think that our collective mindset has moved to less of a famine mentality and that we can now recognize where spending brings us joy. And if that is in a Vitamix, and you aren't up to your nuts in debt, then go for it. I mean once you are living comfortably and your debts are paid off who gives a fuck where you spend. I think the facepunches are reserved for folks who can't figure out consumer DEBT from Consumer SPENDING. And if your spending has you trapped in debt, then those punches should be coming hard and fast until your spending is in line with your income.
So yeah, we're softer now... mostly because we're richer now, and because we've learned where the line lies in each of our budgets and lifestyles. If I can afford a TESLA without affecting my 4% in a way that keeps me on a timeline I'm comfortable with... Fuck-you for saying I shouldn't.
(But I can't, so I continue to drive my cheap-ass Chevy Sonic until I can, thus avoiding your facepunch, and further softening the forum. Fuck-you once again.)
Post by: SimpleCycle on January 07, 2018, 07:48:58 PM
Post by: SimpleCycle on January 07, 2018, 08:56:56 PM
I’m a soft upper income quasi Mustachian. I’ve softened a ton over the years, since I was on the Simple Living Forums back in 2004 feeding two people on less than $200/month. I’m in a different season of life, with a partner who’s not into FIRE and two small children. But I’m still someone who chooses to live in a 2 br with two kids and drive an old car, and I really appreciate hanging out with like minded people.
[wave gif] from another SLF oldie!
MMM resonated with me because the core message was the same as YMOYL, which was how I found the SLF back in the day -- figure out what you really value and spend accordingly. Don't buy crap (aka gazingus pins) you neither need nor really want. But if your spending aligns with what you truly value, then set up your life and your finances so that you can support that spending indefinitely by achieving FI. My FI is VERY different than Joe and Vicki's. And MMM's. And that's ok. The goal is to make yourself happy by living in alignment with your values. Not living up to somebody else's arbitrary standards that might not work for you and your family.
Hi, I recognized your screen name immediately when I saw it. :) My name is different because the SLF name was too traceable.
I agree that the fundamental is aligning your spending and consumption with your values. And I think that’s what most posters on this forum are aiming for, even if they don’t always hit the mark.
Post by: NoraLenderbee on January 08, 2018, 04:20:48 PM
(not to mention people justifying $200 blenders (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/))
Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing! Poor Sol was the only voice of reason. I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.
Yeah, thanks for the link. I loved this:
Quote
Just because you don't appreciate the quality of a high powered blender-blended drink doesn't mean others don't.
Post by: marty998 on January 09, 2018, 02:48:45 AM
Quote
<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts.
I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.
Post by: BookLoverL on January 09, 2018, 03:01:36 AM
I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):Quote<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts.
I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.
I always feel like I'm looking at lifestyle inflation in action when I see those. Sure, if someone is earning a very high amount, they might be able to find room for it in their budget and STILL put money to FIRE, and if they've considered the purchase carefully over a period of time and they still want it, then it's probably important enough to them to account for at least something like it, but I wonder if everyone posting like that has actually fully considered whether the purchase will significantly improve their life over the long term or not. One or two of that type of thing, and they'll be fine, but too many and they'll start slowing down their FIRE prospects.
Post by: ManlyFather on January 09, 2018, 07:02:51 AM
I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):Quote<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts.
I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.
It's the same reason buying avocado toast for $25 is stupid: it's the mindset the buyer has that justifies ridiculous spending. It's not really about the purchase. A lifetime of decisions like these add up.
Post by: Kris on January 09, 2018, 07:53:06 AM
I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):Quote<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts.
I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.
It's the same reason buying avocado toast for $25 is stupid: it's the mindset the buyer has that justifies ridiculous spending. It's not really about the purchase. A lifetime of decisions like these add up.
I'd also say that there are some purchases that are just ridiculous. And ridiculous is ridiculous. It's not dependent on the amount of money you have.
Post by: zoltani on January 09, 2018, 10:10:47 AM
Post by: Le Poisson on January 09, 2018, 10:12:01 AM
On the vitamix thread Sol mentions his nissan leaf, a $30k car. To me that is a ridiculous amount for a car, but Sol can justify it for his needs. The fact that he talks about that car while chastising people for their blender purchase is pretty ironic. Just goes to show you that we all have different priorities and views on what would be considered ridiculous spending.
+1
Post by: bacchi on January 09, 2018, 10:32:59 AM
Post by: ketchup on January 09, 2018, 10:54:30 AM
Absolutely. If I'm making a ridiculous purchase, I at least want the self-awareness of how ridiculous it is (no matter how much I'm already putting away). Spending $200 on something idiotic once isn't going to sink your ship, but doing that every day/week/month sure will. Example: when building my GF's new work PC last year, I paid about $100 extra to have a smaller yet just as capable case. That's $100 extra for mostly aesthetics with slight physical advantages. I know it was silly. Amortized cost of the silliness is conservatively $20/yr and I can deal with that.I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):Quote<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts.
I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.
It's the same reason buying avocado toast for $25 is stupid: it's the mindset the buyer has that justifies ridiculous spending. It's not really about the purchase. A lifetime of decisions like these add up.
Post by: ManlyFather on January 09, 2018, 11:14:39 AM
On the vitamix thread Sol mentions his nissan leaf, a $30k car. To me that is a ridiculous amount for a car, but Sol can justify it for his needs. The fact that he talks about that car while chastising people for their blender purchase is pretty ironic. Just goes to show you that we all have different priorities and views on what would be considered ridiculous spending.
You know he spent less that $30k. Regardless, I fail to see your point: person 1 buys $30k car, person 2 buys $800 blender, therefore blender purchase is OK?
You committed 2 logical fallacies in your argument: strawman (because of the demonstrably false car price) and false equivalence (car = blender).
You sound like a softie in need a face-punch!
Post by: zoltani on January 09, 2018, 11:15:31 AM
If the Leaf was purchased off-lease, it's nowhere near $30k.
Yes, but to make my point I must search for the most expensive option I can find and ignore all posters that tell me I can find it cheaper.
Post by: zoltani on January 09, 2018, 11:20:04 AM
On the vitamix thread Sol mentions his nissan leaf, a $30k car. To me that is a ridiculous amount for a car, but Sol can justify it for his needs. The fact that he talks about that car while chastising people for their blender purchase is pretty ironic. Just goes to show you that we all have different priorities and views on what would be considered ridiculous spending.
You know he spent less that $30k. Regardless, I fail to see your point: person 1 buys $30k car, person 2 buys $800 blender, therefore blender purchase is OK?
You committed 2 logical fallacies in your argument: strawman (because of the demonstrably false car price) and false equivalence (car = blender).
You sound like a softie in need a face-punch!
I'm using the same logic Sol did in the thread. It is easy make judgement of other's choices through our own experience, values, and lifestyle.
Post by: galliver on January 09, 2018, 07:55:52 PM
-$300+ Blender vs maybe $30(?)
-KitchenAid ($500-$1k) vs hand mixer ($20)
-Espresso machine (starts at $100-200, up to $1k+) vs various coffee options starting at $10-20
-Food processor vs hand tools/knife skills
-Breadmaker ($50-100) vs nothing
-Dishwasher(~$500 give or take) vs hand wash
-Upgrading stove/oven from basic ~$200 gas/electric to $500+
-Same for fridge
-$100 drill vs $20
-$1000 table saw vs $300
-A ceramic kiln ($???)
-A car lift
Because in my eyes, these are all *tools*. A tool is worth owning if you use it to do a job. If you do that job often, it might be worth having a nicer tool because it's more durable, more efficient, produces tastier results, etc. You wouldn't get an espresso machine if you don't drink coffee, or you find pour-over/French press/etc comparable or better. If you only get your drill out once a year for household repairs, a cheapo one will probably do. But if it's in your hand every weekend because you build stuff, you'll probably upgrade (maybe not to $100, I don't really know where the sweet spot between "plastic sh*t" and "overpriced sh*t" is for tools right now). But the point is: it all depends on your use case. Just because you or I might not buy it doesn't *necessarily* make it stupid.
A Roomba is kind of a ridiculous frivolity if you're a single person who wants more time to play video games. If you're a dual-career couple with 3 kids under 5, I expect every minute saved on chores is spent with kids or sleeping, so it's probably worth every penny to you! (And if you are a dual-career couple with 3 kids and don't want one, good on you!)
A 5 bedroom house is *beyond* ridiculous for a single person...unless you're running a boarding house or something. But for a family of 10? That might be tighter than a modest 2-bedroom for a family of 4.
A "fancy" trip to Europe? Might be to visit friends or relatives.
I personally find it kind of ridiculous how some MMM users will latch on to like a $100 expenditure on something that will last years or a $5 monthly budget item out of $5000 and just tear someone apart over it. If you wouldn't buy the thing, ok, state your case, but if someone doesn't take your advice...you can just walk away. Either they considered it and it's not in line with their values or you've planted a seed and they'll consider it again later. You won't get anywhere calling them an idiot over it. Calm down.
Post by: kei te pai on January 10, 2018, 02:23:36 AM
Post by: Dicey on January 10, 2018, 03:50:58 AM
Can anyone actually logically demonstrate the difference between the following:I like the way you think, galliver. When I read your list at the top of your post, my thought was, "There's a reason they call it FU Money." If a person has amassed enough of it to FIRE or even be close, I give them a lot more leeway than someone with hair on fire (lower case) debt.
-$300+ Blender vs maybe $30(?)
-KitchenAid ($500-$1k) vs hand mixer ($20)
-Espresso machine (starts at $100-200, up to $1k+) vs various coffee options starting at $10-20
-Food processor vs hand tools/knife skills
-Breadmaker ($50-100) vs nothing
-Dishwasher(~$500 give or take) vs hand wash
-Upgrading stove/oven from basic ~$200 gas/electric to $500+
-Same for fridge
-$100 drill vs $20
-$1000 table saw vs $300
-A ceramic kiln ($???)
-A car lift
Because in my eyes, these are all *tools*. A tool is worth owning if you use it to do a job. If you do that job often, it might be worth having a nicer tool because it's more durable, more efficient, produces tastier results, etc. You wouldn't get an espresso machine if you don't drink coffee, or you find pour-over/French press/etc comparable or better. If you only get your drill out once a year for household repairs, a cheapo one will probably do. But if it's in your hand every weekend because you build stuff, you'll probably upgrade (maybe not to $100, I don't really know where the sweet spot between "plastic sh*t" and "overpriced sh*t" is for tools right now). But the point is: it all depends on your use case. Just because you or I might not buy it doesn't *necessarily* make it stupid.
A Roomba is kind of a ridiculous frivolity if you're a single person who wants more time to play video games. If you're a dual-career couple with 3 kids under 5, I expect every minute saved on chores is spent with kids or sleeping, so it's probably worth every penny to you! (And if you are a dual-career couple with 3 kids and don't want one, good on you!)
A 5 bedroom house is *beyond* ridiculous for a single person...unless you're running a boarding house or something. But for a family of 10? That might be tighter than a modest 2-bedroom for a family of 4.
A "fancy" trip to Europe? Might be to visit friends or relatives.
I personally find it kind of ridiculous how some MMM users will latch on to like a $100 expenditure on something that will last years or a $5 monthly budget item out of $5000 and just tear someone apart over it. If you wouldn't buy the thing, ok, state your case, but if someone doesn't take your advice...you can just walk away. Either they considered it and it's not in line with their values or you've planted a seed and they'll consider it again later. You won't get anywhere calling them an idiot over it. Calm down.
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 10, 2018, 07:50:33 AM
Can anyone actually logically demonstrate the difference between the following:I like the way you think, galliver. When I read your list at the top of your post, my thought was, "There's a reason they call it FU Money." If a person has amassed enough of it to FIRE or even be close, I give them a lot more leeway than someone with hair on fire (lower case) debt.
-$300+ Blender vs maybe $30(?)
-KitchenAid ($500-$1k) vs hand mixer ($20)
-Espresso machine (starts at $100-200, up to $1k+) vs various coffee options starting at $10-20
-Food processor vs hand tools/knife skills
-Breadmaker ($50-100) vs nothing
-Dishwasher(~$500 give or take) vs hand wash
-Upgrading stove/oven from basic ~$200 gas/electric to $500+
-Same for fridge
-$100 drill vs $20
-$1000 table saw vs $300
-A ceramic kiln ($???)
-A car lift
Because in my eyes, these are all *tools*. A tool is worth owning if you use it to do a job. If you do that job often, it might be worth having a nicer tool because it's more durable, more efficient, produces tastier results, etc. You wouldn't get an espresso machine if you don't drink coffee, or you find pour-over/French press/etc comparable or better. If you only get your drill out once a year for household repairs, a cheapo one will probably do. But if it's in your hand every weekend because you build stuff, you'll probably upgrade (maybe not to $100, I don't really know where the sweet spot between "plastic sh*t" and "overpriced sh*t" is for tools right now). But the point is: it all depends on your use case. Just because you or I might not buy it doesn't *necessarily* make it stupid.
A Roomba is kind of a ridiculous frivolity if you're a single person who wants more time to play video games. If you're a dual-career couple with 3 kids under 5, I expect every minute saved on chores is spent with kids or sleeping, so it's probably worth every penny to you! (And if you are a dual-career couple with 3 kids and don't want one, good on you!)
A 5 bedroom house is *beyond* ridiculous for a single person...unless you're running a boarding house or something. But for a family of 10? That might be tighter than a modest 2-bedroom for a family of 4.
A "fancy" trip to Europe? Might be to visit friends or relatives.
I personally find it kind of ridiculous how some MMM users will latch on to like a $100 expenditure on something that will last years or a $5 monthly budget item out of $5000 and just tear someone apart over it. If you wouldn't buy the thing, ok, state your case, but if someone doesn't take your advice...you can just walk away. Either they considered it and it's not in line with their values or you've planted a seed and they'll consider it again later. You won't get anywhere calling them an idiot over it. Calm down.
To your points Galiver and Dicey I think this is where so many people just don't get it. Its as if we save our money so we can sit on our ass and worry about it everyday. And that scares them from even trying.
Post by: Laura33 on January 10, 2018, 07:55:17 AM
I like the way you think, galliver. When I read your list at the top of your post, my thought was, "There's a reason they call it FU Money." If a person has amassed enough of it to FIRE or even be close, I give them a lot more leeway than someone with hair on fire (lower case) debt.
This. The frustration for me comes from people who are in debt or very very early in their journey, but who expect that FIRE = luxurious consumer goods + retire in 10 years. Or people who cannot distinguish between the Vitamix person who has to prepare food every day for someone who cannot eat solids, vs. someone who just wants a fancy blender to make margaritas in every other Saturday.
When you don't have any money, you buy as little as you need, and you buy the cheapest that you can that will meet your needs. Once you have some money, you can choose to depart from that rule, but only when you do so consciously (i.e., you know exactly how the "new" lifestyle fits into your FIRE plans and are good with it) and sporadically. The more money you have in your 'stache, the less I care what you spend it on.
But that still doesn't mean "everything, all the time"; that's just delayed consumerism. It still has to be a conscious weighing of the value to you vs. the cost (in dollars and environmental consequences and lifestyle inflation and all of that). I mean, I drive a massively stupid car, because holy shit it's fun. But I have the same towel I've had for 20 years, and the same [insert 100+ other things here], because what I have suits my needs just fine.
That's the thoughtful stuff I come here for -- I totally fell into lifestyle inflation for a long time, and it is a breath of fresh air to be reminded how much I already have (metaphorically, not possession-wise), and how little I actually need. That's where the strength is. Which is why I get pissed off at the justification of the "need" for fancy crap -- I get enough of that in daily life, thanks very much.
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 10, 2018, 10:11:51 AM
I like the way you think, galliver. When I read your list at the top of your post, my thought was, "There's a reason they call it FU Money." If a person has amassed enough of it to FIRE or even be close, I give them a lot more leeway than someone with hair on fire (lower case) debt.
This. The frustration for me comes from people who are in debt or very very early in their journey, but who expect that FIRE = luxurious consumer goods + retire in 10 years. Or people who cannot distinguish between the Vitamix person who has to prepare food every day for someone who cannot eat solids, vs. someone who just wants a fancy blender to make margaritas in every other Saturday.
When you don't have any money, you buy as little as you need, and you buy the cheapest that you can that will meet your needs. Once you have some money, you can choose to depart from that rule, but only when you do so consciously (i.e., you know exactly how the "new" lifestyle fits into your FIRE plans and are good with it) and sporadically. The more money you have in your 'stache, the less I care what you spend it on.
But that still doesn't mean "everything, all the time"; that's just delayed consumerism. It still has to be a conscious weighing of the value to you vs. the cost (in dollars and environmental consequences and lifestyle inflation and all of that). I mean, I drive a massively stupid car, because holy shit it's fun. But I have the same towel I've had for 20 years, and the same [insert 100+ other things here], because what I have suits my needs just fine.
That's the thoughtful stuff I come here for -- I totally fell into lifestyle inflation for a long time, and it is a breath of fresh air to be reminded how much I already have (metaphorically, not possession-wise), and how little I actually need. That's where the strength is. Which is why I get pissed off at the justification of the "need" for fancy crap -- I get enough of that in daily life, thanks very much.
Or the person that absolutely has no money saved or a pot to piss in but has no problem spending 20$ a day on a lottery tickets.
Post by: ManlyFather on January 10, 2018, 12:23:27 PM
It has 1 motor and NO GEARS.
As anyone who is mechanically inclined, motors are rated based on things like RPM and current draw (amps). That's it.
The Vitamix blender has a motor that is just as good as MUCH cheaper blenders.
If you believe that it is somehow better because it costs a stupid amount of money - I will not change your belief.
It does not perform better than MANY other CHEAPER blenders. It's simple physics, not magic hocus pocus hand wavey bullshit.
Comparing an EXTREMELY simple machine (blender) to an EXTREMELY complex machine (power tools, cars, etc.) is absurd. This is false equivalence. It's damn near impossible to fuck up designing a blender. If you bought a Vitamix, you fell for its marketing, not "superior blending" whatever the fuck that is.
/rant
Vitamix owner = softie.
Post by: ysette9 on January 10, 2018, 12:26:11 PM
Having a tool like a dishwasher or a food processor makes sense if you eat on dishes or chop veggies with any regularity. Dishwashers are more efficient energy and water-wise than hand washing (plus it saves you a chore). I don’t chop enough veggies or make the type of dishes that would benefit from a food processor enough to make it be a good choice for me, but others eat differently. I remember my parents using it a lot for things like grating cheese they bought in bulk.
Overall I think the importance is to do some thinking about what is cheap versus frugal.
Post by: GettingClose on January 10, 2018, 01:09:49 PM
For example - the $5 latte. If you're 20 years old, and 30 years from FIRE, the latte really costs you $50 (vs investing that $5 at NN% for 30 years). If you're 49 and 1 year away from FIRE, the latte really costs you $5.03.
So should we be harder on younger people being wasteful?
Post by: soccerluvof4 on January 10, 2018, 01:47:22 PM
Do you think the position of a person relative to FIRE matters?
For example - the $5 latte. If you're 20 years old, and 30 years from FIRE, the latte really costs you $50 (vs investing that $5 at NN% for 30 years). If you're 49 and 1 year away from FIRE, the latte really costs you $5.03.
So should we be harder on younger people being wasteful?
Yes and no. Yes because most 20 year olds are in the accumulative Stage and there is a reason so many books talk about the LATTE EFFECT and No because whether your 20 or 49 if your spending 5$ on a latte imo your pissing money away. But if you have bank and thats your vice so be it.
Post by: NoraLenderbee on January 10, 2018, 01:51:31 PM
Guy spent $200K on cars, and everyone thinks it's great. I'm OK with spending your money the way you like, but since when did this become the "Congratulations on your expensive purchase" forum?
Post by: bacchi on January 10, 2018, 01:58:56 PM
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-un-fired-myself-recently/
Guy spent $200K on cars, and everyone thinks it's great. I'm OK with spending your money the way you like, but since when did this become the "Congratulations on your expensive purchase" forum?
Yeah, pretty nauseating.
MMM is about examining your purchases and deciding if it fits your values. The problem is that the 2nd step is often ignored or quickly skimmed over. The attaboys don't help.
"Oh yeah, I like fast cars! Spending $200k on cars is sooo worth it to me."
"I need a vitamax because I like smoothies. Spending $800 to get a smooth smoothie is sooo worth it to me."
When all of someone's purchases line up with what mass consumerism wants, it's probably a life less examined.
Post by: Warlord1986 on January 10, 2018, 02:00:13 PM
Just thought I'd drop this here. If you need me I'll be in my bunk...with a headache from shaking it too much. Then I'll be at ERE ;-).
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-un-fired-myself-recently/?topicseen
I feel like this forum has kind of lost the plot on the whole 'be less consumerist and retire early' thing. :/
Post by: Syonyk on January 10, 2018, 02:30:56 PM
I’m not going to go through that entire list, but I think that sometimes a less expensive tool is as good as the more expensive version, and other times not. We have a collection of cheap tools like drills and saws and screwdrivers. They mostly suck. They break and don’t do the job they are intended to do well. The batteries don’t last long. We are slowly replacing them all with higher quality versions to decrease frustration and hopefully do less cycling of crap in and out.
Generally, I'll start with a cheaper tool that does the job, and if I use it enough that it breaks, I'll consider that a good reason to replace it. I've destroyed a cheap drill that way (it held up for years until I set about building my office and it didn't really like boring through pressure treated 4x4s...), though I still have the drill and I'm pretty sure I can just replace the brushes - keep it for light household duty. Though the cordless stuff is way, way more convenient - since I've got a few acres, hauling an extension cord or generator was getting pretty old. I did buy the pair (DeWalt drill and impact driver) used, and one of the batteries I use is one someone sent me (for free) to review on my blog. Yes, you can cook an egg with a modern tool battery. Proved it!
I'm in the slightly interesting position of having to tighten up on some of the areas I used to ignore. A ~50% cut in takehome pay does that (quality of life improvements are totally worth it), and some of the stuff I just brute forced through previously I'm actually looking at, like my cell phone bill and such.
No clue how a new NSX fits into this, though. I'm pretty sure it won't be in my future, at least.
Post by: BDWW on January 10, 2018, 02:56:34 PM
Apparently only spending $3000 on recycled glass countertops is great... and the rest of the posts aren't much better. Share your badassity???
Post by: boarder42 on January 10, 2018, 03:02:42 PM
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog. It isn’t about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.
i disagree he leverages that when it makes sense to be frugal - he doesnt advocate for environmental things that are not efficient for the most part. if it cost more to bike to work than drive you can damn sure bet he'd be driving
Post by: FiveSigmas on January 10, 2018, 05:00:33 PM
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog. It isn’t about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.
i disagree he leverages that when it makes sense to be frugal - he doesnt advocate for environmental things that are not efficient for the most part. if it cost more to bike to work than drive you can damn sure bet he'd be driving
Not sure about that. Plane travel would be cheaper if he didn't buy carbon offsets:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/03/20/climate-change-footprint/
I'm personally skeptical of carbon offsets, but Pete does put his money where his mouth is.
Post by: boarder42 on January 11, 2018, 06:22:40 AM
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!
Has everyone always been so soft? Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?
/rant
you posted a thread in share your badassity about driving a car - its not really relevant the way in which you drove it but if you're going to call people soft a thread about driving a car isnt really hardcore.
Post by: boarder42 on January 11, 2018, 06:32:08 AM
its called ERE
I think by nature this forum tends to lend itself to less of the badassity b/c MMM took ERE and added some comfort to it. So other people here continue to add their own levels of comfort above the MMM family spending. But if you take a couple steps back and look at the big picture MMM is really spending around 40k a year plus he hides a lot of expeneses that do bring joy to his life in his business of this blog. including the new mustachian HQ.
Post by: Davnasty on January 11, 2018, 07:37:41 AM
And paying extra for electric to get wind power.I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog. It isn’t about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.
i disagree he leverages that when it makes sense to be frugal - he doesnt advocate for environmental things that are not efficient for the most part. if it cost more to bike to work than drive you can damn sure bet he'd be driving
Not sure about that. Plane travel would be cheaper if he didn't buy carbon offsets:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/03/20/climate-change-footprint/
I'm personally skeptical of carbon offsets, but Pete does put his money where his mouth is.
Post by: ManlyFather on January 11, 2018, 10:17:03 AM
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!
Has everyone always been so soft? Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?
/rant
you posted a thread in share your badassity about driving a car - its not really relevant the way in which you drove it but if you're going to call people soft a thread about driving a car isnt really hardcore.
I'm confused, so driving with the heat off in subzero temperatures is soft? Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?
[MOD NOTE: Enough with this attitude. Manners, please. The people here are actually trying to educate you. Can the insults.]
Post by: boarder42 on January 11, 2018, 10:21:13 AM
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!
Has everyone always been so soft? Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?
/rant
you posted a thread in share your badassity about driving a car - its not really relevant the way in which you drove it but if you're going to call people soft a thread about driving a car isnt really hardcore.
I'm confused, so driving with the heat off in subzero temperatures is soft? Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...
i'm telling you its not hardcore badassity if it involves driving a vehicle. regardless of the 10c you saved in gas freezing. So while you're calling others out you should evaluate what you're doing ... for the record i commute to work daily but i'm not posting about others being soft.
Post by: Davnasty on January 11, 2018, 10:29:12 AM
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!
Has everyone always been so soft? Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?
/rant
you posted a thread in share your badassity about driving a car - its not really relevant the way in which you drove it but if you're going to call people soft a thread about driving a car isnt really hardcore.
I'm confused, so driving with the heat off in subzero temperatures is soft? Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...
i'm telling you its not hardcore badassity if it involves driving a vehicle. regardless of the 10c you saved in gas freezing. So while you're calling others out you should evaluate what you're doing ... for the record i commute to work daily but i'm not posting about others being soft.
Why not, I don't follow the logic. There's plenty of cases where a vehicle can be justified. Also there's a lot of room between hardcore badassity and coddling softies.
Reminds me of the MMM article about driving in hot weather with no AC and the windows up using a spray bottle to utilize evaporative cooling on his face.
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2018, 10:35:11 AM
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.
Post by: Laura33 on January 11, 2018, 10:48:17 AM
FWIW, I would be interested in a sub-forum on how to shop intelligently -- I suck in many areas and could use more creative ideas on how to improve. But I do worry that it would turn into discussions like the link spartana and NoraLenderbee posted, where we all justify why we need expensive consumer goods. And I don't know how to keep that from happening.
Post by: ketchup on January 11, 2018, 11:09:15 AM
Guys, just stop it. Y'all are both bad-asses.The ethos has to be: "here's how to get 90% of what you want for 20% of the price" vs "here's a way to get 170% of what anybody needs BUT AT 30% OFF RETAIL!!!" That's tricky to quantify or regulate.
FWIW, I would be interested in a sub-forum on how to shop intelligently -- I suck in many areas and could use more creative ideas on how to improve. But I do worry that it would turn into discussions like the link spartana and NoraLenderbee posted, where we all justify why we need expensive consumer goods. And I don't know how to keep that from happening.
Post by: dougules on January 11, 2018, 11:13:41 AM
One hole in this, though, is that people tend to be patently bad at guessing which purchases will make them happy. Most of the time spending on experiences is underestimated, and spending on stuff is overestimated. Spending on other people is generally even more underrated.
If you want to see real bad-asses, look at how your great great grandparents lived. If you're reading this on a screen, you live a much cushier life than them. There's nothing wrong with that. Just acknowledge it, appreciate it, and don't try to one-up other people.
Post by: galliver on January 11, 2018, 11:39:18 AM
It comes down to this; is buying something worth what you have to do to earn the money in terms of your happiness and the happiness of everybody else on this big rock. That's going to completely depend on the situation. If you absolutely love your job as a CEO of a major company, I'm pretty sure spending on a vacation biking across your home state/country will likely be worth it. If you're deep in debt and hate your job in New York City, buying a hummer is probably not going to be as worth it. Between those two extremes, it depends on the details.Yes.
One hole in this, though, is that people tend to be patently bad at guessing which purchases will make them happy. Most of the time spending on experiences is underestimated, and spending on stuff is overestimated. Spending on other people is generally even more underrated.
If you want to see real bad-asses, look at how your great great grandparents lived. If you're reading this on a screen, you live a much cushier life than them. There's nothing wrong with that. Just acknowledge it, appreciate it, and don't try to one-up other people.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Post by: zoltani on January 11, 2018, 11:56:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE
Post by: galliver on January 11, 2018, 01:14:01 PM
Guys, just stop it. Y'all are both bad-asses.The ethos has to be: "here's how to get 90% of what you want for 20% of the price" vs "here's a way to get 170% of what anybody needs BUT AT 30% OFF RETAIL!!!" That's tricky to quantify or regulate.
FWIW, I would be interested in a sub-forum on how to shop intelligently -- I suck in many areas and could use more creative ideas on how to improve. But I do worry that it would turn into discussions like the link spartana and NoraLenderbee posted, where we all justify why we need expensive consumer goods. And I don't know how to keep that from happening.
I think APowers is doing something like this (a topic on "how to shop intelligently") with respect to groceries on his "sub-$200 grocery budget" thread, if you haven't checked it out yet. That's (hopefully?) the most regular kind of shopping MMM followers do. (And I'm sure similar strategies can be applied to household products, the 2nd most regular kind of shopping (hopefully).)
For other types of shopping a thread like this might be boring, because the most frugal (and I am not among them ;) ) seem to be good at just...not buying things? On the other hand, per "Kitchen Disasters" thread, that can sometimes backfire! (Someone made a cheesecake in an old springform pan and it didn't hold together!!)
Post by: ManlyFather on January 11, 2018, 03:36:14 PM
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.
So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?
Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.
Post by: boarder42 on January 11, 2018, 03:43:14 PM
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.
So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?
Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.
My point was what you did saved a few bucks but wasn't hardcore. As you so think it is and then you start a thread to ask about softening of the forum. You clearly need your ego stroked for some reason. I didn't say you should have biked I just said what you didn't doesn't fit into the category of hardcore.
Post by: ManlyFather on January 11, 2018, 04:29:13 PM
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.
So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?
Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.
My point was what you did saved a few bucks but wasn't hardcore. As you so think it is and then you start a thread to ask about softening of the forum. You clearly need your ego stroked for some reason. I didn't say you should have biked I just said what you didn't doesn't fit into the category of hardcore.
Ah, I see where our disagreement lies - the definition of hardcore. It looks like I believe that there can be scenarios where driving a car has some room for badassity, and you are believe that absolutely that nothing can be badass while driving a car.
I suppose we should agree to disagree, because it is unlikely either of us will change the other's mind.
Side note: please don't stroke anything of mine, including my ego.
Post by: Syonyk on January 11, 2018, 04:38:01 PM
Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?
What's the raw temperature? Windchill isn't that useful for "rolling" temperatures, IME - I rode year around in Iowa, all winter long, and I found wind chill to be useless.
Studded snow tires and some sort of tire sealant should cover that sort of riding pretty well, if you're interested in how to do it.
If you're dressed for the weather, 0F or so shouldn't be fatal... o.O
Post by: ManlyFather on January 11, 2018, 04:56:12 PM
Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?
What's the raw temperature? Windchill isn't that useful for "rolling" temperatures, IME - I rode year around in Iowa, all winter long, and I found wind chill to be useless.
Studded snow tires and some sort of tire sealant should cover that sort of riding pretty well, if you're interested in how to do it.
If you're dressed for the weather, 0F or so shouldn't be fatal... o.O
I didn't know there were such a thing as studded bike tires - do they work in 7" drifts? I've seen fat tire bikes in the snow, but I don't have one (and won't buy one either). Anyone who bikes to work in subzero temperatures through snow drifts and miles of unplowed roads in business clothes is pure badass. I'm not a pure badass.
Post by: Le Poisson on January 11, 2018, 05:21:53 PM
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.
So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?
Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.
My point was what you did saved a few bucks but wasn't hardcore. As you so think it is and then you start a thread to ask about softening of the forum. You clearly need your ego stroked for some reason. I didn't say you should have biked I just said what you didn't doesn't fit into the category of hardcore.
Ah, I see where our disagreement lies - the definition of hardcore. It looks like I believe that there can be scenarios where driving a car has some room for badassity, and you are believe that absolutely that nothing can be badass while driving a car.
I suppose we should agree to disagree, because it is unlikely either of us will change the other's mind.
Side note: please don't stroke anything of mine, including my ego.
Since you're inviting facepunches while arguing over postcounts and focusing on postalcodes...
If you're aiming for badass, why do you even live somewhere that you need a car? I mean, I'll happily admit that this stuff is pretty low key for me at this point. When I got started in it, I was comparison shopping home baking whole wheat bread vs white and checking how many fractions of a cent more I used if I put sugar into it vs molasses... but now I'm "soft" and I just make wholegrain white bread each week and don't worry about the 7/16ths of a cent difference in margarine vs canola.
But back then... before I was even into MMM, I realized that living in Boondockville Buttfuck meant everything was inefficient, so I sold my house, sold my car, and relocated and got a new job. THAT WAS BEFORE MMM. If you want to start throwing facepunches, lets start with your lifestyle choice that just screams inefficient environmental disaster. Maybe you need to realize you're the dumpsterfire before you start harping on the forum.
And don't even start with climate as your excuse. That's utter bullshit. #Frostbike and #Vikingbiking are real things. Look them up.
Post by: Syonyk on January 11, 2018, 05:23:01 PM
I didn't know there were such a thing as studded bike tires - do they work in 7" drifts? I've seen fat tire bikes in the snow, but I don't have one (and won't buy one either). Anyone who bikes to work in subzero temperatures through snow drifts and miles of unplowed roads in business clothes is pure badass. I'm not a pure badass.
It depends. You can certainly punch through a 7" drift if they're infrequent, though narrow tires are better for that than the wide ones. I was dealing mostly with loose fresh snow and then the ice pack that happens after an unplowed road gets driven on for a while in the cold (that thick layer of glaze), and studded tires worked very well on that. I struggled to get through more than a few inches of crusted snow, though. I could do it, barely. And not for that long.
The fat bikes probably aren't ideal unless you're dealing with a lot of powder, at which point, yeah, they might be the best option. I don't know enough about your roads to have a strong opinion there.
Toss the business clothes in a bag and change at the office. :p Wear good riding gear. You'll definitely want good fenders, but adjust them loose in the winter so they don't pack up with snow.
Post by: Syonyk on January 11, 2018, 05:24:23 PM
But back then... before I was even into MMM, I realized that living in Boondockville Buttfuck meant everything was inefficient, so I sold my house, sold my car, and relocated and got a new job. THAT WAS BEFORE MMM. If you want to start throwing facepunches, lets start with your lifestyle choice that just screams inefficient environmental disaster.
It depends rather heavily on how one lives in the rural area, wouldn't it? If you're heating with wood from your property and have a good solar array up, and decent gardens, the impact is fairly low.
Post by: Le Poisson on January 11, 2018, 05:37:27 PM
But back then... before I was even into MMM, I realized that living in Boondockville Buttfuck meant everything was inefficient, so I sold my house, sold my car, and relocated and got a new job. THAT WAS BEFORE MMM. If you want to start throwing facepunches, lets start with your lifestyle choice that just screams inefficient environmental disaster.
It depends rather heavily on how one lives in the rural area, wouldn't it? If you're heating with wood from your property and have a good solar array up, and decent gardens, the impact is fairly low.
Not if he's driving to work daily. Our place was a South-facing Viceroy with massive thermal gain, wood heat, and a 1.5 acre lot. Spent so much time/money on the commute that nothing else could make up for it. When you are gassing up 2-3X weekly, your savings anyplace else go straight into the gas tank. We were raising chickens for meat/eggs and had some pretty bad gardens going. No time to weed them when you are constantly cutting lawns and commuting.
Now he hasn't manned up to say how long this un-bikeable commute is, but he has caught himself in a catch-22. Either he's living so far from work that he has an inefficient lifestyle and needs to make wholesale changes, or he's close enough he could be biking/using transit and needs to make wholesale lifestyle changes. Either way, he has no business calling out the forum for being too soft until he makes some choices. Even when my commute was 85 km, I would drive halfway and bike the rest.
If he wants the old facepunch days, we can deliver.
Post by: boarder42 on January 11, 2018, 05:39:56 PM
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 11, 2018, 05:53:33 PM
But back then... before I was even into MMM, I realized that living in Boondockville Buttfuck meant everything was inefficient, so I sold my house, sold my car, and relocated and got a new job. THAT WAS BEFORE MMM. If you want to start throwing facepunches, lets start with your lifestyle choice that just screams inefficient environmental disaster.
It depends rather heavily on how one lives in the rural area, wouldn't it? If you're heating with wood from your property and have a good solar array up, and decent gardens, the impact is fairly low.
I prefer living in the suburbs to living in an urban area. Groceries are cheaper. Mortgage is cheaper. I have a yard that I can use for stuff. It's quiet all the time. No crime to speak of.
The downside is that I need to own a car, but I only use it to commute to my job, so it'll probably last 25-30 years. I use my bicycle to go places in town or I just walk there. I wish there were more bike paths and sidewalks, but it's fine for my needs.
Post by: Thegoblinchief on January 11, 2018, 05:56:02 PM
I call bullshit on the frugality=environmentalism angle that a lot of y’all are claiming here. Resisting consumerism when it comes to gadgets? Absolutely that is better for the planet. There’s a big BUT coming, though, in that absolute frugality with food is incredibly damaging to the environment. I have become deeply immersed in learning about regenerative farming practices and so much of our cheap calorie food system is grossly unsustainable. It might even worse than the environmental damage from cheap plastic crap from China, but both are bad.
I bring this up to illustrate the point that sometimes spending more is the more sustainable option. The super cheap grocery budgets many hardcore MMMers have create an awful lot of damage around through globe, just like consumer sukkas who spend $$$$$
So don’t feel holier than thou, you have flaws too. I’m not saying I’m the greatest either. I currently spend money on food and goods I’m not 100% in favor of as well, because I’m trying to balance the higher priorities, including not having my wife work forever at a high stress job.
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2018, 09:44:17 PM
Relevance is that the person with the higher post count clearly knows the forum rules. You sir, do not seem to be as well versed, possibly because you have been here a far shorter time. It's not about anything but name calling and Forum Rule #1.Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.
So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?
Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.
Post by: boarder42 on January 12, 2018, 06:21:21 AM
i dont care if you drive a car - i dont care if you eat out every day - but dont make a post thinking youre a badass hardcore mustachian that involves driving a car or eating out or whatever then start another thread about the forum going soft. I dont care how long you've been here if i made a post like how awesome it is to own a boat and how i do it cheaply, which i've done - b/c i dont claim to be a hardcore mustachian - i wouldnt follow that post up 2 days later with why is this forum so soft. Compound that with a new kid on the block doing both of these things and it just doesnt really add up and the OP should stick around here and learn some things before calling the forum soft and considering driving a vehicle 120 miles hardcore badassity b/c they saved 10c on gas by not running a heater.
Post by: Davnasty on January 12, 2018, 07:12:50 AM
People go through phases. I am a full time SAHD now and rarely hop on my bike. Family time is more important to me, especially since I homeschool. For a couple years, though, I was one of the most hardcore bikers on the forum. I biked down to -40, biked in 6”+ snowstorms, all of that.It's not just the cheap calories that harm the environment, it's farming practices in general. there is little correlation between the cost of calories and environmental impact. You may even be referring to something other than just organic and I agree improving farming practices is something we should pursue but products grown with regenerative farming are not available to many. Although, depending on what you mean by regenerative farming there are actually lot's of examples in conventional food production that fit that definition.
I call bullshit on the frugality=environmentalism angle that a lot of y’all are claiming here. Resisting consumerism when it comes to gadgets? Absolutely that is better for the planet. There’s a big BUT coming, though, in that absolute frugality with food is incredibly damaging to the environment. I have become deeply immersed in learning about regenerative farming practices and so much of our cheap calorie food system is grossly unsustainable. It might even worse than the environmental damage from cheap plastic crap from China, but both are bad.
I bring this up to illustrate the point that sometimes spending more is the more sustainable option. The super cheap grocery budgets many hardcore MMMers have create an awful lot of damage around through globe, just like consumer sukkas who spend $$$$$
So don’t feel holier than thou, you have flaws too. I’m not saying I’m the greatest either. I currently spend money on food and goods I’m not 100% in favor of as well, because I’m trying to balance the higher priorities, including not having my wife work forever at a high stress job.
I would argue regardless of production method the amount of meat we consume has the greatest impact and meat is expensive. Cut out meat, save money, help the environment. And what about fresh produce vs. grains? Oatmeal, grits, rice, dry beans; all high calorie, very cheap, and by far have less impact per calorie than low calorie vegetables that need to be picked, transported and often refrigerated no matter how they were grown.
Most of the savings for low budget grocery shoppers on here come from not buying brand name, not wasting food, making things at home vs. prepared and not buying too much meat. These all generally benefit the environment.
Post by: Thegoblinchief on January 12, 2018, 07:46:48 AM
You're incorrect that cutting out meat is a solution. While it's true that low meat/vegetarian/vegan is better than heavy meat diets if that meat comes from the CAFO system, all regenerative farming depends on animals. Properly managed animals have an amazingly healing effect on landscapes, and are the key to sustainable/regenerative farming both ecologically and economically.
If unfamiliar with the work of someone like Joel Salatin, permaculturalists like Ben Falk, or my new favorite Richard Perkins, strongly encourage you to check them out. I used to believe the same about low/no meat diets being more sustainable but it just absolutely isn't the case. Numerous examples are out there showing agricultural systems involving animals building soil at rates approaching 100 times or more what the wild areas in their climate zones do.
Also, some folks have a genetic/biological makeup that makes them need a relatively high amount of animal protein to be healthy and sated. Myself and my family are that way. We went very low meat for several years but as we've added meat back to our diet we feel much, much better. We raise a large amount of it ourselves and purchase most of the rest from producers we trust and know.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 12, 2018, 08:12:58 AM
Post by: Thegoblinchief on January 12, 2018, 08:20:11 AM
Can you name some of Richard Perkins' books? He doesn't show up in amazon.ca
He does have a book, but it's his youtube channel that I enjoy. I'll be picking up his book probably next month, but from what I know of it it's more of a technical book and fairly expensive.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3111rvadtBPUY9JJBqdmzg
His farm is really neat. I discovered him late last year and am currently working through all his videos from 2017, in July right now.
Post by: Davnasty on January 12, 2018, 09:03:15 AM
@Dabnasty You're correct that expensive calories aren't inherently better. I wasn't implying that, just that food grown in regenerative systems is typically much more labor intensive, thus it can't be as cheap as the heavily industrialized food a typical cheap diet depends on.I am familiar with Joel Salatin and I've read books on the topic but those books are written by people who are in favor of what they're writing about, they are biased and they tend to over promise on the benefits of what they do. This is true when someone writes a book on almost any topic, their way is the best way. And I'm not saying there is no merit to what they do, there is, but don't take everything you read about these guys as fact.
You're incorrect that cutting out meat is a solution. While it's true that low meat/vegetarian/vegan is better than heavy meat diets if that meat comes from the CAFO system, all regenerative farming depends on animals. Properly managed animals have an amazingly healing effect on landscapes, and are the key to sustainable/regenerative farming both ecologically and economically.
If unfamiliar with the work of someone like Joel Salatin, permaculturalists like Ben Falk, or my new favorite Richard Perkins, strongly encourage you to check them out. I used to believe the same about low/no meat diets being more sustainable but it just absolutely isn't the case. Numerous examples are out there showing agricultural systems involving animals building soil at rates approaching 100 times or more what the wild areas in their climate zones do.
Also, some folks have a genetic/biological makeup that makes them need a relatively high amount of animal protein to be healthy and sated. Myself and my family are that way. We went very low meat for several years but as we've added meat back to our diet we feel much, much better. We raise a large amount of it ourselves and purchase most of the rest from producers we trust and know.
But that's all really besides the point because most people don't have access to food produced using the methods you're talking about. So no, I am not incorrect that cutting out meat is better for the environment and that holds true both for meat raised on a CAFO and for almost every other meat available to consumers. Even the environmental benefits of Polyface farms are questionable when customers are driving from northern VA or even other states to buy a few chickens.
My main issue with your original comment is that you're criticizing low budget grocery shoppers as being worse for the environment but you're not really comparing low budget to high budget, you're comparing a typical way of purchasing food to an atypical way of purchasing food. The fact that I spend very little on my food has nothing to do with this scenario, in fact my cheap groceries correlate directly with lower environmental impact than if I were buying more expensive foods at the same store. If I'm buying grains and eating them that is without a doubt better for the environment than feeding the grain to an animal and eating the meat. (for the record I do eat meat but I stick to mostly chicken and eggs. Far from great but I get my precious animal proteins with less environmental impact than pork or beef.)
Post by: ManlyFather on January 12, 2018, 10:03:45 AM
many of you are missing the fundamental point i was trying to make
i dont care if you drive a car - i dont care if you eat out every day - but dont make a post thinking youre a badass hardcore mustachian that involves driving a car or eating out or whatever then start another thread about the forum going soft. I dont care how long you've been here if i made a post like how awesome it is to own a boat and how i do it cheaply, which i've done - b/c i dont claim to be a hardcore mustachian - i wouldnt follow that post up 2 days later with why is this forum so soft. Compound that with a new kid on the block doing both of these things and it just doesnt really add up and the OP should stick around here and learn some things before calling the forum soft and considering driving a vehicle 120 miles hardcore badassity b/c they saved 10c on gas by not running a heater.
Not trying to be a dick, but I still don't know what your point is.
I never said anything about 120 mile commutes or 10c gas savings. It seems like you are making me up to be a straw man in your head, and then attacking that straw man. I can't follow your argument because it doesn't follow a coherent narrative that is grounded in reality.
My original point: when I share examples of people making obvious financially self destructive choices, a chorus of support shows up in this forum. In addition, with the Vitamix example, people in a forum about frugality and efficient living openly attack others who think an $800 blender is a foolish thing to buy.
As for the money saving thread, I started it for people to share ideas about how to save more money/ optimize spending by using non-traditional and slightly uncomfortable means.
Now that I have explicitly laid out each of the points you didn't grasp, I would encourage you to re-evaluate why you are being so reticent.
Post by: boarder42 on January 12, 2018, 10:23:25 AM
and posted your "supposed Hardcore thing" - which i dont think anyone here would consider HARDCORE
I drove my car to work in -3F without turning the heater on. This saved me about 2 mpg.
What HARDCORE MUSTACHIAN thing did you do to save money today?
why is it not hardcore b/c you drove a car - i'm not telling you to bike in -3F conditions i'm telling you that b/c you consider yourself mustachian(this is an assumption) that doesnt make all of your choices hardcore mustachian.
You then followed that up with a thread insulting the users of the forum - this thread.
when in fact you are one of the soft users who just happens to think all your decisions are badass.
can i spell that out more clearly?
The HARDCORE mustachian thing to do would be to sell the car and live as close as possible to everything you do so you dont even need to bike anywhere and can save the cost and maint of owning a bike.
saving 2mpg with a hybrid is not really much of a cost savings in the grand scheme of anything - 2mpgs out of 40mpgs is 5% savings on the drive if gas costs 2 dollars a gallon and you drove 120 miles roundtrip you saved 30 cents on the trip.
Post by: DS on January 12, 2018, 10:48:15 AM
Mods - feel free to delete this thread as it looks like this topic has already been fleshed out relatively recently.
This!
Just live your life and do your best for yourself and who cares what anyone is doing with their money? Their spending helps you if you are investing. *shrug*
Post by: Rimu05 on January 12, 2018, 10:51:37 AM
To understand the nature that this forum has taken we have to start with that.
Furthermore, what constitutes frugality?
Person 1, has a $50,000 car, lives in a five bedroom house, is known to buy relatively cheap breakfasts at McDonalds, but that is eating out. By Mustachian standards, this is a complete waste, but if we said person 1 is Warren Buffet. Would this constitute frugality?
Post by: ManlyFather on January 12, 2018, 11:12:36 AM
You started a thread titled what HARDCORE mustachian thing have you done today to save money.
and posted your "supposed Hardcore thing" - which i dont think anyone here would consider HARDCOREI drove my car to work in -3F without turning the heater on. This saved me about 2 mpg.
What HARDCORE MUSTACHIAN thing did you do to save money today?
why is it not hardcore b/c you drove a car - i'm not telling you to bike in -3F conditions i'm telling you that b/c you consider yourself mustachian(this is an assumption) that doesnt make all of your choices hardcore mustachian.
You then followed that up with a thread insulting the users of the forum - this thread.
when in fact you are one of the soft users who just happens to think all your decisions are badass.
can i spell that out more clearly?
The HARDCORE mustachian thing to do would be to sell the car and live as close as possible to everything you do so you dont even need to bike anywhere and can save the cost and maint of owning a bike.
saving 2mpg with a hybrid is not really much of a cost savings in the grand scheme of anything - 2mpgs out of 40mpgs is 5% savings on the drive if gas costs 2 dollars a gallon and you drove 120 miles roundtrip you saved 30 cents on the trip.
You still missed the point. If I continue to try to engage with you, I believe you'll continue to attack me. I can't help you understand, especially when you keep making things up (not sure what this 120 miles and 40 mpg and 30 cent stuff is coming from - I think you are pretty confused). Given your confusion and propensity to attack me, I will be disengaging from interacting with you now as I don't think we can have a constructive debate. You are free to have the last word as I won't be interacting with you (or others displaying troll behavior) in this thread from this point onward.
Post by: boarder42 on January 12, 2018, 11:15:52 AM
You started a thread titled what HARDCORE mustachian thing have you done today to save money.
and posted your "supposed Hardcore thing" - which i dont think anyone here would consider HARDCOREI drove my car to work in -3F without turning the heater on. This saved me about 2 mpg.
What HARDCORE MUSTACHIAN thing did you do to save money today?
why is it not hardcore b/c you drove a car - i'm not telling you to bike in -3F conditions i'm telling you that b/c you consider yourself mustachian(this is an assumption) that doesnt make all of your choices hardcore mustachian.
You then followed that up with a thread insulting the users of the forum - this thread.
when in fact you are one of the soft users who just happens to think all your decisions are badass.
can i spell that out more clearly?
The HARDCORE mustachian thing to do would be to sell the car and live as close as possible to everything you do so you dont even need to bike anywhere and can save the cost and maint of owning a bike.
saving 2mpg with a hybrid is not really much of a cost savings in the grand scheme of anything - 2mpgs out of 40mpgs is 5% savings on the drive if gas costs 2 dollars a gallon and you drove 120 miles roundtrip you saved 30 cents on the trip.
You still missed the point. If I continue to try to engage with you, I believe you'll continue to attack me. I can't help you understand, especially when you keep making things up (not sure what this 120 miles and 40 mpg and 30 cent stuff is coming from - I think you are pretty confused). Given your confusion and propensity to attack me, I will be disengaging from interacting with you now as I don't think we can have a constructive debate. You are free to have the last word as I won't be interacting with you (or others displaying troll behavior) in this thread from this point onward.
very interesting you think i'm a troll b/c you cant open your eyes and see the hillarity in your contradiction between two posts. could you please start a thread that defines what hardcore mustachianism is so we can follow it
from what i've gathered so far it doesnt include a vitamix but includes a car to get you to work.
i'm not attacking you i'm attacking your ideas - which is what we do on this forum - you're the one who attacked me earlier in the thread. Learning these are different things and what makes this forum great will go along way for you.
Post by: Rimu05 on January 12, 2018, 11:16:36 AM
@Dabnasty You're correct that expensive calories aren't inherently better. I wasn't implying that, just that food grown in regenerative systems is typically much more labor intensive, thus it can't be as cheap as the heavily industrialized food a typical cheap diet depends on.
You're incorrect that cutting out meat is a solution. While it's true that low meat/vegetarian/vegan is better than heavy meat diets if that meat comes from the CAFO system, all regenerative farming depends on animals. Properly managed animals have an amazingly healing effect on landscapes, and are the key to sustainable/regenerative farming both ecologically and economically.
If unfamiliar with the work of someone like Joel Salatin, permaculturalists like Ben Falk, or my new favorite Richard Perkins, strongly encourage you to check them out. I used to believe the same about low/no meat diets being more sustainable but it just absolutely isn't the case. Numerous examples are out there showing agricultural systems involving animals building soil at rates approaching 100 times or more what the wild areas in their climate zones do.
Also, some folks have a genetic/biological makeup that makes them need a relatively high amount of animal protein to be healthy and sated. Myself and my family are that way. We went very low meat for several years but as we've added meat back to our diet we feel much, much better. We raise a large amount of it ourselves and purchase most of the rest from producers we trust and know.
Nothing to dispute, but I am one of those people who just cooks based on my country's general diet. On that note, I come from a country where the one of the tribes is the Maasai people. They are a nomadic tribe who mostly consume a lot of animal products. In fact, some tribes eat no vegetables at all. However, they are pretty darn healthy and have a very low disease rate. Of course being nomadic, they do a copious amount of walking. However, I notice this pattern with other nomadic tribes. Even the people who are fatter, are still healthy...
Post by: ManlyFather on January 12, 2018, 11:19:18 AM
Mods - feel free to delete this thread as it looks like this topic has already been fleshed out relatively recently.
This!
Just live your life and do your best for yourself and who cares what anyone is doing with their money? Their spending helps you if you are investing. *shrug*
Yeah, this thread is pretty sideways now thanks to some folks displaying odd behavior and thinking patterns, it looks like it has been thoroughly derailed and the original intent has long been forgotten. Mods feel free to kick this thread to the curb.
As for the spending = good for my investments: I do smile a little inside when I find out someone bought an iPhone X. This makes me slightly richer given my significant exposure to AAPL in my large index fund holdings.
Post by: Davnasty on January 12, 2018, 11:37:45 AM
You still missed the point. If I continue to try to engage with you, I believe you'll continue to attack me. I can't help you understand, especially when you keep making things up (not sure what this 120 miles and 40 mpg and 30 cent stuff is coming from - I think you are pretty confused). Given your confusion and propensity to attack me, I will be disengaging from interacting with you now as I don't think we can have a constructive debate. You are free to have the last word as I won't be interacting with you (or others displaying troll behavior) in this thread from this point onward.
very interesting you think i'm a troll b/c you cant open your eyes and see the hillarity in your contradiction between two posts. could you please start a thread that defines what hardcore mustachianism is so we can follow it
from what i've gathered so far it doesnt include a vitamix but includes a car to get you to work.
i'm not attacking you i'm attacking your ideas - which is what we do on this forum - you're the one who attacked me earlier in the thread. Learning these are different things and what makes this forum great will go along way for you.
That sounds plausible to me? And yes, no name calling.
But overall I don't think it's fair to say someone is disqualified from starting a thread like this just because they commute by car. I don't commute by car but if my current situation dictated that it's the best option I would do it. Even if I had intentions to move closer to work I would be driving in the meantime. For some work locations it may even be truly unsafe or impossible to bike (not the average persons definition of unsafe biking, truly unsafe).
Besides, from the beginning I thought this thread was about the more extreme cases of excess spending being reinforced by other comments. That definitely exists and according to users that have been around longer than I, it has become much more common. You're taking the fact that MFer (that's what I'm calling you from now on if you're cool with it :) started one thread about being hardcore, you disagree with his definition of hardcore, and you use that to disqualify his criticisms of anyone else. That seems like a stretch.
Post by: boarder42 on January 12, 2018, 12:22:27 PM
You still missed the point. If I continue to try to engage with you, I believe you'll continue to attack me. I can't help you understand, especially when you keep making things up (not sure what this 120 miles and 40 mpg and 30 cent stuff is coming from - I think you are pretty confused). Given your confusion and propensity to attack me, I will be disengaging from interacting with you now as I don't think we can have a constructive debate. You are free to have the last word as I won't be interacting with you (or others displaying troll behavior) in this thread from this point onward.
very interesting you think i'm a troll b/c you cant open your eyes and see the hillarity in your contradiction between two posts. could you please start a thread that defines what hardcore mustachianism is so we can follow it
from what i've gathered so far it doesnt include a vitamix but includes a car to get you to work.
i'm not attacking you i'm attacking your ideas - which is what we do on this forum - you're the one who attacked me earlier in the thread. Learning these are different things and what makes this forum great will go along way for you.
That sounds plausible to me? And yes, no name calling.
But overall I don't think it's fair to say someone is disqualified from starting a thread like this just because they commute by car. I don't commute by car but if my current situation dictated that it's the best option I would do it. Even if I had intentions to move closer to work I would be driving in the meantime. For some work locations it may even be truly unsafe or impossible to bike (not the average persons definition of unsafe biking, truly unsafe).
Besides, from the beginning I thought this thread was about the more extreme cases of excess spending being reinforced by other comments. That definitely exists and according to users that have been around longer than I, it has become much more common. You're taking the fact that MFer (that's what I'm calling you from now on if you're cool with it :) started one thread about being hardcore, you disagree with his definition of hardcore, and you use that to disqualify his criticisms of anyone else. That seems like a stretch.
again my issue really isnt with commuting by car and asking if the community has gone soft - its the hyperbole
its equating commuting by car to being HARDCORE and then asking why people are soft on the other hand.
a post of why i'm so awesome (which i think we can all agree isnt really awesome) followed by a post of why do you all suck.
Post by: Davnasty on January 12, 2018, 12:35:23 PM
You still missed the point. If I continue to try to engage with you, I believe you'll continue to attack me. I can't help you understand, especially when you keep making things up (not sure what this 120 miles and 40 mpg and 30 cent stuff is coming from - I think you are pretty confused). Given your confusion and propensity to attack me, I will be disengaging from interacting with you now as I don't think we can have a constructive debate. You are free to have the last word as I won't be interacting with you (or others displaying troll behavior) in this thread from this point onward.
very interesting you think i'm a troll b/c you cant open your eyes and see the hillarity in your contradiction between two posts. could you please start a thread that defines what hardcore mustachianism is so we can follow it
from what i've gathered so far it doesnt include a vitamix but includes a car to get you to work.
i'm not attacking you i'm attacking your ideas - which is what we do on this forum - you're the one who attacked me earlier in the thread. Learning these are different things and what makes this forum great will go along way for you.
That sounds plausible to me? And yes, no name calling.
But overall I don't think it's fair to say someone is disqualified from starting a thread like this just because they commute by car. I don't commute by car but if my current situation dictated that it's the best option I would do it. Even if I had intentions to move closer to work I would be driving in the meantime. For some work locations it may even be truly unsafe or impossible to bike (not the average persons definition of unsafe biking, truly unsafe).
Besides, from the beginning I thought this thread was about the more extreme cases of excess spending being reinforced by other comments. That definitely exists and according to users that have been around longer than I, it has become much more common. You're taking the fact that MFer (that's what I'm calling you from now on if you're cool with it :) started one thread about being hardcore, you disagree with his definition of hardcore, and you use that to disqualify his criticisms of anyone else. That seems like a stretch.
again my issue really isnt with commuting by car and asking if the community has gone soft - its the hyperbole
its equating commuting by car to being HARDCORE and then asking why people are soft on the other hand.
a post of why i'm so awesome (which i think we can all agree isnt really awesome) followed by a post of why do you all suck.
Maybe we're just reading the title differently?
I see it as "Have there always been some users who are soft". Maybe you read it as "All forum members are now soft". Understandable if you read it that way, I'm not a fan of the title but certainly no one thinks everyone on here is soft.
Post by: boarder42 on January 12, 2018, 12:44:51 PM
You still missed the point. If I continue to try to engage with you, I believe you'll continue to attack me. I can't help you understand, especially when you keep making things up (not sure what this 120 miles and 40 mpg and 30 cent stuff is coming from - I think you are pretty confused). Given your confusion and propensity to attack me, I will be disengaging from interacting with you now as I don't think we can have a constructive debate. You are free to have the last word as I won't be interacting with you (or others displaying troll behavior) in this thread from this point onward.
very interesting you think i'm a troll b/c you cant open your eyes and see the hillarity in your contradiction between two posts. could you please start a thread that defines what hardcore mustachianism is so we can follow it
from what i've gathered so far it doesnt include a vitamix but includes a car to get you to work.
i'm not attacking you i'm attacking your ideas - which is what we do on this forum - you're the one who attacked me earlier in the thread. Learning these are different things and what makes this forum great will go along way for you.
That sounds plausible to me? And yes, no name calling.
But overall I don't think it's fair to say someone is disqualified from starting a thread like this just because they commute by car. I don't commute by car but if my current situation dictated that it's the best option I would do it. Even if I had intentions to move closer to work I would be driving in the meantime. For some work locations it may even be truly unsafe or impossible to bike (not the average persons definition of unsafe biking, truly unsafe).
Besides, from the beginning I thought this thread was about the more extreme cases of excess spending being reinforced by other comments. That definitely exists and according to users that have been around longer than I, it has become much more common. You're taking the fact that MFer (that's what I'm calling you from now on if you're cool with it :) started one thread about being hardcore, you disagree with his definition of hardcore, and you use that to disqualify his criticisms of anyone else. That seems like a stretch.
again my issue really isnt with commuting by car and asking if the community has gone soft - its the hyperbole
its equating commuting by car to being HARDCORE and then asking why people are soft on the other hand.
a post of why i'm so awesome (which i think we can all agree isnt really awesome) followed by a post of why do you all suck.
Maybe we're just reading the title differently?
I see it as "Have there always been some users who are soft". Maybe you read it as "All forum members are now soft". Understandable if you read it that way, I'm not a fan of the title but certainly no one thinks everyone on here is soft.
everyone some one - doesnt really matter how many people its aimed at - its a new guy on the block posting about how badass he is on something thats not really bad ass followed by posting about how soft others are - i think prospector summed it up pretty well above.
Post by: Syonyk on January 12, 2018, 12:46:48 PM
I mean, to be fair, my solar power setup is because I didn't think trenching through that much basalt was feasible on the timeframe I had...
Post by: boarder42 on January 12, 2018, 12:48:11 PM
Where does "Built a solar powered office on your property and have a 30 second walk from the house to the office" fit in? I'm not driving, but I'm not biking either...
I mean, to be fair, my solar power setup is because I didn't think trenching through that much basalt was feasible on the timeframe I had...
you should have started this thread.
Post by: ManlyFather on January 12, 2018, 12:48:23 PM
You're taking the fact that MFer (that's what I'm calling you from now on if you're cool with it :)
You're cool, you can call me whatever you want :)
Post by: Syonyk on January 12, 2018, 01:27:30 PM
you should have started this thread.
*shrug* I'd get shouted off the board for doing something like that. I have my path in life, and it involves things like owning a truck because driving into town to rent a truck to haul stuff and then driving back in to return it is stupid. And my savings rate this year is quite negative, because I've been investing a lot of time and money into useful property improvements (storage, vehicle shelter, firebreaks, etc). Another few years of that should leave me mostly self sufficient in terms of energy/food/water on the property, with the associated savings rate, but I'm going about it rather differently than most people here.
Post by: FrugalToque on January 12, 2018, 02:12:27 PM