Author Topic: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?  (Read 6839 times)

lhamo

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2018, 08:49:20 PM »
Iím a soft upper income quasi Mustachian.  Iíve softened a ton over the years, since I was on the Simple Living Forums back in 2004 feeding two people on less than $200/month.  Iím in a different season of life, with a partner whoís not into FIRE and two small children.  But Iím still someone who chooses to live in a 2 br with two kids and drive an old car, and I really appreciate hanging out with like minded people.

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MMM resonated with me because the core message was the same as YMOYL, which was how I found the SLF back in the day -- figure out what you really value and spend accordingly.  Don't buy crap (aka gazingus pins) you neither need nor really want.  But if your spending aligns with what you truly value, then set up your life and your finances so that you can support that spending indefinitely by achieving FI.   My FI is VERY different than Joe and Vicki's.  And MMM's.   And that's ok.  The goal is to make yourself happy by living in alignment with your values.  Not living up to somebody else's arbitrary standards that might not work for you and your family.
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SimpleCycle

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2018, 08:56:56 PM »
I’m a soft upper income quasi Mustachian.  I’ve softened a ton over the years, since I was on the Simple Living Forums back in 2004 feeding two people on less than $200/month.  I’m in a different season of life, with a partner who’s not into FIRE and two small children.  But I’m still someone who chooses to live in a 2 br with two kids and drive an old car, and I really appreciate hanging out with like minded people.

[wave gif] from another SLF oldie!

MMM resonated with me because the core message was the same as YMOYL, which was how I found the SLF back in the day -- figure out what you really value and spend accordingly.  Don't buy crap (aka gazingus pins) you neither need nor really want.  But if your spending aligns with what you truly value, then set up your life and your finances so that you can support that spending indefinitely by achieving FI.   My FI is VERY different than Joe and Vicki's.  And MMM's.   And that's ok.  The goal is to make yourself happy by living in alignment with your values.  Not living up to somebody else's arbitrary standards that might not work for you and your family.

Hi, I recognized your screen name immediately when I saw it. :) My name is different because the SLF name was too traceable.

I agree that the fundamental is aligning your spending and consumption with your values.  And I think that’s what most posters on this forum are aiming for, even if they don’t always hit the mark.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2018, 04:20:48 PM »


 (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders)

Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing!  Poor Sol was the only voice of reason.  I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.

Yeah, thanks for the link. I loved this:

Quote
Just because you don't appreciate the quality of a high powered blender-blended drink doesn't mean others don't.

marty998

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2018, 02:48:45 AM »
I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):

Quote
<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts. 

I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2018, 03:01:36 AM »
I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):

Quote
<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts. 

I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.

I always feel like I'm looking at lifestyle inflation in action when I see those. Sure, if someone is earning a very high amount, they might be able to find room for it in their budget and STILL put money to FIRE, and if they've considered the purchase carefully over a period of time and they still want it, then it's probably important enough to them to account for at least something like it, but I wonder if everyone posting like that has actually fully considered whether the purchase will significantly improve their life over the long term or not. One or two of that type of thing, and they'll be fine, but too many and they'll start slowing down their FIRE prospects.
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ManlyFather

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2018, 07:02:51 AM »
I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):

Quote
<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts. 

I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.

It's the same reason buying avocado toast for $25 is stupid: it's the mindset the buyer has that justifies ridiculous spending.  It's not really about the purchase.  A lifetime of decisions like these add up.

Kris

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2018, 07:53:06 AM »
I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):

Quote
<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts. 

I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.

It's the same reason buying avocado toast for $25 is stupid: it's the mindset the buyer has that justifies ridiculous spending.  It's not really about the purchase.  A lifetime of decisions like these add up.

I'd also say that there are some purchases that are just ridiculous. And ridiculous is ridiculous. It's not dependent on the amount of money you have.
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zoltani

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2018, 10:10:47 AM »
On the vitamix thread Sol mentions his nissan leaf, a $30k car. To me that is a ridiculous amount for a car, but Sol can justify it for his needs. The fact that he talks about that car while chastising people for their blender purchase is pretty ironic. Just goes to show you that we all have different priorities and views on what would be considered ridiculous spending.
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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2018, 10:12:01 AM »
On the vitamix thread Sol mentions his nissan leaf, a $30k car. To me that is a ridiculous amount for a car, but Sol can justify it for his needs. The fact that he talks about that car while chastising people for their blender purchase is pretty ironic. Just goes to show you that we all have different priorities and views on what would be considered ridiculous spending.

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bacchi

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2018, 10:32:59 AM »
If the Leaf was purchased off-lease, it's nowhere near $30k.

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2018, 10:54:30 AM »
I'm seeing a lot of posts like this these days (quoted poster's name removed to save blushes):

Quote
<Insert antimustachian/expensive purchase> In justification, I have no debt, max all tax advantaged accounts. 

I have trouble with this line of thinking. I am having difficulty articulating why, but it just grates on me.

It's the same reason buying avocado toast for $25 is stupid: it's the mindset the buyer has that justifies ridiculous spending.  It's not really about the purchase.  A lifetime of decisions like these add up.
Absolutely.  If I'm making a ridiculous purchase, I at least want the self-awareness of how ridiculous it is (no matter how much I'm already putting away).  Spending $200 on something idiotic once isn't going to sink your ship, but doing that every day/week/month sure will.  Example: when building my GF's new work PC last year, I paid about $100 extra to have a smaller yet just as capable case.  That's $100 extra for mostly aesthetics with slight physical advantages.  I know it was silly.  Amortized cost of the silliness is conservatively $20/yr and I can deal with that.

ManlyFather

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2018, 11:14:39 AM »
On the vitamix thread Sol mentions his nissan leaf, a $30k car. To me that is a ridiculous amount for a car, but Sol can justify it for his needs. The fact that he talks about that car while chastising people for their blender purchase is pretty ironic. Just goes to show you that we all have different priorities and views on what would be considered ridiculous spending.

You know he spent less that $30k.  Regardless, I fail to see your point: person 1 buys $30k car, person 2 buys $800 blender, therefore blender purchase is OK?

You committed 2 logical fallacies in your argument: strawman (because of the demonstrably false car price) and false equivalence (car = blender).

You sound like a softie in need a face-punch!

zoltani

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2018, 11:15:31 AM »
If the Leaf was purchased off-lease, it's nowhere near $30k.

Yes, but to make my point I must search for the most expensive option I can find and ignore all posters that tell me I can find it cheaper.

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zoltani

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2018, 11:20:04 AM »
On the vitamix thread Sol mentions his nissan leaf, a $30k car. To me that is a ridiculous amount for a car, but Sol can justify it for his needs. The fact that he talks about that car while chastising people for their blender purchase is pretty ironic. Just goes to show you that we all have different priorities and views on what would be considered ridiculous spending.

You know he spent less that $30k.  Regardless, I fail to see your point: person 1 buys $30k car, person 2 buys $800 blender, therefore blender purchase is OK?

You committed 2 logical fallacies in your argument: strawman (because of the demonstrably false car price) and false equivalence (car = blender).

You sound like a softie in need a face-punch!

I'm using the same logic Sol did in the thread. It is easy make judgement of other's choices through our own experience, values, and lifestyle. 


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galliver

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2018, 07:55:52 PM »
Can anyone actually logically demonstrate the difference between the following:
-$300+ Blender vs maybe $30(?)
-KitchenAid ($500-$1k) vs hand mixer ($20)
-Espresso machine (starts at $100-200, up to $1k+) vs various coffee options starting at $10-20
-Food processor vs hand tools/knife skills
-Breadmaker ($50-100) vs nothing
-Dishwasher(~$500 give or take) vs hand wash
-Upgrading stove/oven from basic ~$200 gas/electric to $500+
-Same for fridge

-$100 drill vs $20
-$1000 table saw vs $300
-A ceramic kiln ($???)
-A car lift

Because in my eyes, these are all *tools*. A tool is worth owning if you use it to do a job. If you do that job often, it might be worth having a nicer tool because it's more durable, more efficient, produces tastier results, etc. You wouldn't get an espresso machine if you don't drink coffee, or you find pour-over/French press/etc comparable or better. If you only get your drill out once a year for household repairs, a cheapo one will probably do. But if it's in your hand every weekend because you build stuff, you'll probably upgrade (maybe not to $100, I don't really know where the sweet spot between "plastic sh*t" and "overpriced sh*t" is for tools right now). But the point is: it all depends on your use case. Just because you or I might not buy it doesn't *necessarily* make it stupid.

A Roomba is kind of a ridiculous frivolity if you're a single person who wants more time to play video games. If you're a dual-career couple with 3 kids under 5, I expect every minute saved on chores is spent with kids or sleeping, so it's probably worth every penny to you! (And if you are a dual-career couple with 3 kids and don't want one, good on you!)
A 5 bedroom house is *beyond* ridiculous for a single person...unless you're running a boarding house or something. But for a family of 10? That might be tighter than a modest 2-bedroom for a family of 4.
A "fancy" trip to Europe? Might be to visit friends or relatives.

I personally find it kind of ridiculous how some MMM users will latch on to like a $100 expenditure on something that will last years or a $5 monthly budget item out of $5000 and just tear someone apart over it. If you wouldn't buy the thing, ok, state your case, but if someone doesn't take your advice...you can just walk away. Either they considered it and it's not in line with their values or you've planted a seed and they'll consider it again later. You won't get anywhere calling them an idiot over it. Calm down.

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2018, 02:23:36 AM »
Sometimes I think we are all soft here. Flip the switch and we have 24hr lights and heating. Turn the tap and lovely clear water flows freely. No bombs in the night, snipers on the way to work, roadblocks and corrupt police. Our lives are so rich we dont even recognise it.

Dicey

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2018, 03:50:58 AM »
Can anyone actually logically demonstrate the difference between the following:
-$300+ Blender vs maybe $30(?)
-KitchenAid ($500-$1k) vs hand mixer ($20)
-Espresso machine (starts at $100-200, up to $1k+) vs various coffee options starting at $10-20
-Food processor vs hand tools/knife skills
-Breadmaker ($50-100) vs nothing
-Dishwasher(~$500 give or take) vs hand wash
-Upgrading stove/oven from basic ~$200 gas/electric to $500+
-Same for fridge

-$100 drill vs $20
-$1000 table saw vs $300
-A ceramic kiln ($???)
-A car lift

Because in my eyes, these are all *tools*. A tool is worth owning if you use it to do a job. If you do that job often, it might be worth having a nicer tool because it's more durable, more efficient, produces tastier results, etc. You wouldn't get an espresso machine if you don't drink coffee, or you find pour-over/French press/etc comparable or better. If you only get your drill out once a year for household repairs, a cheapo one will probably do. But if it's in your hand every weekend because you build stuff, you'll probably upgrade (maybe not to $100, I don't really know where the sweet spot between "plastic sh*t" and "overpriced sh*t" is for tools right now). But the point is: it all depends on your use case. Just because you or I might not buy it doesn't *necessarily* make it stupid.

A Roomba is kind of a ridiculous frivolity if you're a single person who wants more time to play video games. If you're a dual-career couple with 3 kids under 5, I expect every minute saved on chores is spent with kids or sleeping, so it's probably worth every penny to you! (And if you are a dual-career couple with 3 kids and don't want one, good on you!)
A 5 bedroom house is *beyond* ridiculous for a single person...unless you're running a boarding house or something. But for a family of 10? That might be tighter than a modest 2-bedroom for a family of 4.
A "fancy" trip to Europe? Might be to visit friends or relatives.

I personally find it kind of ridiculous how some MMM users will latch on to like a $100 expenditure on something that will last years or a $5 monthly budget item out of $5000 and just tear someone apart over it. If you wouldn't buy the thing, ok, state your case, but if someone doesn't take your advice...you can just walk away. Either they considered it and it's not in line with their values or you've planted a seed and they'll consider it again later. You won't get anywhere calling them an idiot over it. Calm down.
I like the way you think, galliver. When I read your list at the top of your post, my thought was, "There's a reason they call it FU Money." If a person has amassed enough of it to FIRE or even be close, I give them a lot more leeway than someone with hair on fire (lower case) debt.
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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2018, 07:50:33 AM »
Can anyone actually logically demonstrate the difference between the following:
-$300+ Blender vs maybe $30(?)
-KitchenAid ($500-$1k) vs hand mixer ($20)
-Espresso machine (starts at $100-200, up to $1k+) vs various coffee options starting at $10-20
-Food processor vs hand tools/knife skills
-Breadmaker ($50-100) vs nothing
-Dishwasher(~$500 give or take) vs hand wash
-Upgrading stove/oven from basic ~$200 gas/electric to $500+
-Same for fridge

-$100 drill vs $20
-$1000 table saw vs $300
-A ceramic kiln ($???)
-A car lift

Because in my eyes, these are all *tools*. A tool is worth owning if you use it to do a job. If you do that job often, it might be worth having a nicer tool because it's more durable, more efficient, produces tastier results, etc. You wouldn't get an espresso machine if you don't drink coffee, or you find pour-over/French press/etc comparable or better. If you only get your drill out once a year for household repairs, a cheapo one will probably do. But if it's in your hand every weekend because you build stuff, you'll probably upgrade (maybe not to $100, I don't really know where the sweet spot between "plastic sh*t" and "overpriced sh*t" is for tools right now). But the point is: it all depends on your use case. Just because you or I might not buy it doesn't *necessarily* make it stupid.

A Roomba is kind of a ridiculous frivolity if you're a single person who wants more time to play video games. If you're a dual-career couple with 3 kids under 5, I expect every minute saved on chores is spent with kids or sleeping, so it's probably worth every penny to you! (And if you are a dual-career couple with 3 kids and don't want one, good on you!)
A 5 bedroom house is *beyond* ridiculous for a single person...unless you're running a boarding house or something. But for a family of 10? That might be tighter than a modest 2-bedroom for a family of 4.
A "fancy" trip to Europe? Might be to visit friends or relatives.

I personally find it kind of ridiculous how some MMM users will latch on to like a $100 expenditure on something that will last years or a $5 monthly budget item out of $5000 and just tear someone apart over it. If you wouldn't buy the thing, ok, state your case, but if someone doesn't take your advice...you can just walk away. Either they considered it and it's not in line with their values or you've planted a seed and they'll consider it again later. You won't get anywhere calling them an idiot over it. Calm down.
I like the way you think, galliver. When I read your list at the top of your post, my thought was, "There's a reason they call it FU Money." If a person has amassed enough of it to FIRE or even be close, I give them a lot more leeway than someone with hair on fire (lower case) debt.


To your points Galiver and Dicey I think this is where so many people just don't get it.  Its as if we save our money so we can sit on our ass and worry about it everyday. And that scares them from even trying. 
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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2018, 07:55:17 AM »
I like the way you think, galliver. When I read your list at the top of your post, my thought was, "There's a reason they call it FU Money." If a person has amassed enough of it to FIRE or even be close, I give them a lot more leeway than someone with hair on fire (lower case) debt.

This.  The frustration for me comes from people who are in debt or very very early in their journey, but who expect that FIRE = luxurious consumer goods + retire in 10 years.  Or people who cannot distinguish between the Vitamix person who has to prepare food every day for someone who cannot eat solids, vs. someone who just wants a fancy blender to make margaritas in every other Saturday. 

When you don't have any money, you buy as little as you need, and you buy the cheapest that you can that will meet your needs.  Once you have some money, you can choose to depart from that rule, but only when you do so consciously (i.e., you know exactly how the "new" lifestyle fits into your FIRE plans and are good with it) and sporadically.  The more money you have in your 'stache, the less I care what you spend it on. 

But that still doesn't mean "everything, all the time"; that's just delayed consumerism.  It still has to be a conscious weighing of the value to you vs. the cost (in dollars and environmental consequences and lifestyle inflation and all of that).  I mean, I drive a massively stupid car, because holy shit it's fun.  But I have the same towel I've had for 20 years, and the same [insert 100+ other things here], because what I have suits my needs just fine.

That's the thoughtful stuff I come here for -- I totally fell into lifestyle inflation for a long time, and it is a breath of fresh air to be reminded how much I already have (metaphorically, not possession-wise), and how little I actually need.  That's where the strength is.  Which is why I get pissed off at the justification of the "need" for fancy crap -- I get enough of that in daily life, thanks very much.
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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2018, 10:11:51 AM »
I like the way you think, galliver. When I read your list at the top of your post, my thought was, "There's a reason they call it FU Money." If a person has amassed enough of it to FIRE or even be close, I give them a lot more leeway than someone with hair on fire (lower case) debt.

This.  The frustration for me comes from people who are in debt or very very early in their journey, but who expect that FIRE = luxurious consumer goods + retire in 10 years.  Or people who cannot distinguish between the Vitamix person who has to prepare food every day for someone who cannot eat solids, vs. someone who just wants a fancy blender to make margaritas in every other Saturday. 

When you don't have any money, you buy as little as you need, and you buy the cheapest that you can that will meet your needs.  Once you have some money, you can choose to depart from that rule, but only when you do so consciously (i.e., you know exactly how the "new" lifestyle fits into your FIRE plans and are good with it) and sporadically.  The more money you have in your 'stache, the less I care what you spend it on. 

But that still doesn't mean "everything, all the time"; that's just delayed consumerism.  It still has to be a conscious weighing of the value to you vs. the cost (in dollars and environmental consequences and lifestyle inflation and all of that).  I mean, I drive a massively stupid car, because holy shit it's fun.  But I have the same towel I've had for 20 years, and the same [insert 100+ other things here], because what I have suits my needs just fine.

That's the thoughtful stuff I come here for -- I totally fell into lifestyle inflation for a long time, and it is a breath of fresh air to be reminded how much I already have (metaphorically, not possession-wise), and how little I actually need.  That's where the strength is.  Which is why I get pissed off at the justification of the "need" for fancy crap -- I get enough of that in daily life, thanks very much.


Or the person that absolutely has no money saved or a pot to piss in but has no problem spending 20$ a day on a lottery tickets.
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ManlyFather

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2018, 12:23:27 PM »
The Vitamix blender is a ridiculous waste of money.  It is not better than most other blenders that cost 10% as much.  Here's why:

It has 1 motor and NO GEARS.

As anyone who is mechanically inclined, motors are rated based on things like RPM and current draw (amps).  That's it.

The Vitamix blender has a motor that is just as good as MUCH cheaper blenders.

If you believe that it is somehow better because it costs a stupid amount of money - I will not change your belief.

It does not perform better than MANY other CHEAPER blenders.  It's simple physics, not magic hocus pocus hand wavey bullshit.

Comparing an EXTREMELY simple machine (blender) to an EXTREMELY complex machine (power tools, cars, etc.) is absurd.  This is false equivalence.  It's damn near impossible to fuck up designing a blender.  If you bought a Vitamix, you fell for its marketing, not "superior blending" whatever the fuck that is.

/rant

Vitamix owner = softie.

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2018, 12:26:11 PM »
Iím not going to go through that entire list, but I think that sometimes a less expensive tool is as good as the more expensive version, and other times not. We have a collection of cheap tools like drills and saws and screwdrivers. They mostly suck. They break and donít do the job they are intended to do well. The batteries donít last long. We are slowly replacing them all with higher quality versions to decrease frustration and hopefully do less cycling of crap in and out.

Having a tool like a dishwasher or a food processor makes sense if you eat on dishes or chop veggies with any regularity. Dishwashers are more efficient energy and water-wise than hand washing (plus it saves you a chore). I donít chop enough veggies or make the type of dishes that would benefit from a food processor enough to make it be a good choice for me, but others eat differently. I remember my parents using it a lot for things like grating cheese they bought in bulk.

Overall I think the importance is to do some thinking about what is cheap versus frugal.
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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2018, 01:09:49 PM »
Do you think the position of a person relative to FIRE matters?

For example - the $5 latte.  If you're 20 years old, and 30 years from FIRE, the latte really costs you $50 (vs investing that $5 at NN% for 30 years).  If you're 49 and 1 year away from FIRE, the latte really costs you $5.03.

So should we be harder on younger people being wasteful?

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2018, 01:47:22 PM »
Do you think the position of a person relative to FIRE matters?

For example - the $5 latte.  If you're 20 years old, and 30 years from FIRE, the latte really costs you $50 (vs investing that $5 at NN% for 30 years).  If you're 49 and 1 year away from FIRE, the latte really costs you $5.03.

So should we be harder on younger people being wasteful?


Yes and no. Yes because most 20 year olds are in the accumulative Stage and there is a reason so many books talk about the LATTE EFFECT  and No because whether your 20 or 49 if your spending 5$ on a latte imo your pissing money away. But if you have bank and thats your vice so be it.
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NoraLenderbee

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2018, 01:51:31 PM »
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-un-fired-myself-recently/

Guy spent $200K on cars, and everyone thinks it's great. I'm OK with spending your money the way you like, but since when did this become the "Congratulations on your expensive purchase" forum?

bacchi

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2018, 01:58:56 PM »
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-un-fired-myself-recently/

Guy spent $200K on cars, and everyone thinks it's great. I'm OK with spending your money the way you like, but since when did this become the "Congratulations on your expensive purchase" forum?

Yeah, pretty nauseating.

MMM is about examining your purchases and deciding if it fits your values. The problem is that the 2nd step is often ignored or quickly skimmed over. The attaboys don't help.

"Oh yeah, I like fast cars! Spending $200k on cars is sooo worth it to me."
"I need a vitamax because I like smoothies. Spending $800 to get a smooth smoothie is sooo worth it to me."

When all of someone's purchases line up with what mass consumerism wants, it's probably a life less examined.

Warlord1986

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2018, 02:00:13 PM »
Just thought I'd drop this here. If you need me I'll be in my bunk...with a headache from shaking it too much. Then I'll be at ERE ;-).

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-un-fired-myself-recently/?topicseen

I feel like this forum has kind of lost the plot on the whole 'be less consumerist and retire early' thing. :/

Syonyk

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2018, 02:30:56 PM »
Iím not going to go through that entire list, but I think that sometimes a less expensive tool is as good as the more expensive version, and other times not. We have a collection of cheap tools like drills and saws and screwdrivers. They mostly suck. They break and donít do the job they are intended to do well. The batteries donít last long. We are slowly replacing them all with higher quality versions to decrease frustration and hopefully do less cycling of crap in and out.

Generally, I'll start with a cheaper tool that does the job, and if I use it enough that it breaks, I'll consider that a good reason to replace it.  I've destroyed a cheap drill that way (it held up for years until I set about building my office and it didn't really like boring through pressure treated 4x4s...), though I still have the drill and I'm pretty sure I can just replace the brushes - keep it for light household duty.  Though the cordless stuff is way, way more convenient - since I've got a few acres, hauling an extension cord or generator was getting pretty old.  I did buy the pair (DeWalt drill and impact driver) used, and one of the batteries I use is one someone sent me (for free) to review on my blog.  Yes, you can cook an egg with a modern tool battery.  Proved it!

I'm in the slightly interesting position of having to tighten up on some of the areas I used to ignore.  A ~50% cut in takehome pay does that (quality of life improvements are totally worth it), and some of the stuff I just brute forced through previously I'm actually looking at, like my cell phone bill and such.

No clue how a new NSX fits into this, though.  I'm pretty sure it won't be in my future, at least.
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BDWW

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2018, 02:56:34 PM »
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/say-it-with-me-i-am-not-my-countertops/

Apparently only spending $3000 on recycled glass countertops is great... and the rest of the posts aren't much better. Share your badassity???

boarder42

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2018, 03:02:42 PM »
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog.  It isnít about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.

i disagree he leverages that when it makes sense to be frugal - he doesnt advocate for environmental things that are not efficient for the most part.  if it cost more to bike to work than drive you can damn sure bet he'd be driving
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FiveSigmas

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2018, 05:00:33 PM »
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog.  It isnít about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.

i disagree he leverages that when it makes sense to be frugal - he doesnt advocate for environmental things that are not efficient for the most part.  if it cost more to bike to work than drive you can damn sure bet he'd be driving

Not sure about that. Plane travel would be cheaper if he didn't buy carbon offsets:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/03/20/climate-change-footprint/

I'm personally skeptical of carbon offsets, but Pete does put his money where his mouth is.

boarder42

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2018, 06:22:40 AM »
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!

Has everyone always been so soft?  Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?

/rant

you posted a thread in share your badassity about driving a car - its not really relevant the way in which you drove it but if you're going to call people soft a thread about driving a car isnt really hardcore.
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boarder42

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2018, 06:32:08 AM »
also if you want hardcore barebones frugal there is a forum for that

its called ERE

I think by nature this forum tends to lend itself to less of the badassity b/c MMM took ERE and added some comfort to it.  So other people here continue to add their own levels of comfort above the MMM family spending.  But if you take a couple steps back and look at the big picture MMM is really spending around 40k a year plus he hides a lot of expeneses that do bring joy to his life in his business of this blog.  including the new mustachian HQ. 
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Dabnasty

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2018, 07:37:41 AM »
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog.  It isnít about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.

i disagree he leverages that when it makes sense to be frugal - he doesnt advocate for environmental things that are not efficient for the most part.  if it cost more to bike to work than drive you can damn sure bet he'd be driving

Not sure about that. Plane travel would be cheaper if he didn't buy carbon offsets:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/03/20/climate-change-footprint/

I'm personally skeptical of carbon offsets, but Pete does put his money where his mouth is.
And paying extra for electric to get wind power.

ManlyFather

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2018, 10:17:03 AM »
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!

Has everyone always been so soft?  Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?

/rant

you posted a thread in share your badassity about driving a car - its not really relevant the way in which you drove it but if you're going to call people soft a thread about driving a car isnt really hardcore.

I'm confused, so driving with the heat off in subzero temperatures is soft?  Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?

Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...

[MOD NOTE: Enough with this attitude.  Manners, please.  The people here are actually trying to educate you.  Can the insults.]
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:16:02 PM by FrugalToque »

boarder42

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2018, 10:21:13 AM »
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!

Has everyone always been so soft?  Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?

/rant

you posted a thread in share your badassity about driving a car - its not really relevant the way in which you drove it but if you're going to call people soft a thread about driving a car isnt really hardcore.

I'm confused, so driving with the heat off in subzero temperatures is soft?  Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?

Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...

i'm telling you its not hardcore badassity if it involves driving a vehicle.  regardless of the 10c you saved in gas freezing.  So while you're calling others out you should evaluate what you're doing ... for the record i commute to work daily but i'm not posting about others being soft.
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Dabnasty

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2018, 10:29:12 AM »
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!

Has everyone always been so soft?  Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?

/rant

you posted a thread in share your badassity about driving a car - its not really relevant the way in which you drove it but if you're going to call people soft a thread about driving a car isnt really hardcore.

I'm confused, so driving with the heat off in subzero temperatures is soft?  Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?

Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...

i'm telling you its not hardcore badassity if it involves driving a vehicle.  regardless of the 10c you saved in gas freezing.  So while you're calling others out you should evaluate what you're doing ... for the record i commute to work daily but i'm not posting about others being soft.

Why not, I don't follow the logic. There's plenty of cases where a vehicle can be justified. Also there's a lot of room between hardcore badassity and coddling softies.

Reminds me of the MMM article about driving in hot weather with no AC and the windows up using a spray bottle to utilize evaporative cooling on his face.

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2018, 10:35:11 AM »
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...
<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.
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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2018, 10:48:17 AM »
Guys, just stop it.  Y'all are both bad-asses. 

FWIW, I would be interested in a sub-forum on how to shop intelligently -- I suck in many areas and could use more creative ideas on how to improve.  But I do worry that it would turn into discussions like the link spartana and NoraLenderbee posted, where we all justify why we need expensive consumer goods.  And I don't know how to keep that from happening.
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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2018, 11:09:15 AM »
Guys, just stop it.  Y'all are both bad-asses. 

FWIW, I would be interested in a sub-forum on how to shop intelligently -- I suck in many areas and could use more creative ideas on how to improve.  But I do worry that it would turn into discussions like the link spartana and NoraLenderbee posted, where we all justify why we need expensive consumer goods.  And I don't know how to keep that from happening.
The ethos has to be: "here's how to get 90% of what you want for 20% of the price" vs "here's a way to get 170% of what anybody needs BUT AT 30% OFF RETAIL!!!"  That's tricky to quantify or regulate.

dougules

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2018, 11:13:41 AM »
It comes down to this; is buying something worth what you have to do to earn the money in terms of your happiness and the happiness of everybody else on this big rock.  That's going to completely depend on the situation.  If you absolutely love your job as a CEO of a major company, I'm pretty sure spending on a vacation biking across your home state/country will likely be worth it.   If you're deep in debt and hate your job in New York City, buying a hummer is probably not going to be as worth it.  Between those two extremes, it depends on the details.

One hole in this, though, is that people tend to be patently bad at guessing which purchases will make them happy.  Most of the time spending on experiences is underestimated, and spending on stuff is overestimated.  Spending on other people is generally even more underrated. 

If you want to see real bad-asses, look at how your great great grandparents lived.  If you're reading this on a screen, you live a much cushier life than them.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Just acknowledge it, appreciate it, and don't try to one-up other people. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:16:58 AM by dougules »

galliver

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2018, 11:39:18 AM »
It comes down to this; is buying something worth what you have to do to earn the money in terms of your happiness and the happiness of everybody else on this big rock.  That's going to completely depend on the situation.  If you absolutely love your job as a CEO of a major company, I'm pretty sure spending on a vacation biking across your home state/country will likely be worth it.   If you're deep in debt and hate your job in New York City, buying a hummer is probably not going to be as worth it.  Between those two extremes, it depends on the details.

One hole in this, though, is that people tend to be patently bad at guessing which purchases will make them happy.  Most of the time spending on experiences is underestimated, and spending on stuff is overestimated.  Spending on other people is generally even more underrated. 

If you want to see real bad-asses, look at how your great great grandparents lived.  If you're reading this on a screen, you live a much cushier life than them.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Just acknowledge it, appreciate it, and don't try to one-up other people.
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zoltani

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2018, 11:56:40 AM »
This thread reminds me of the Yorkshire Men bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE
ďThe hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. Itís so easy to make it complex. Whatís important is leading an examined life.Ē

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galliver

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2018, 01:14:01 PM »
Guys, just stop it.  Y'all are both bad-asses. 

FWIW, I would be interested in a sub-forum on how to shop intelligently -- I suck in many areas and could use more creative ideas on how to improve.  But I do worry that it would turn into discussions like the link spartana and NoraLenderbee posted, where we all justify why we need expensive consumer goods.  And I don't know how to keep that from happening.
The ethos has to be: "here's how to get 90% of what you want for 20% of the price" vs "here's a way to get 170% of what anybody needs BUT AT 30% OFF RETAIL!!!"  That's tricky to quantify or regulate.

I think APowers is doing something like this (a topic on "how to shop intelligently") with respect to groceries on his "sub-$200 grocery budget" thread, if you haven't checked it out yet. That's (hopefully?) the most regular kind of shopping MMM followers do. (And I'm sure similar strategies can be applied to household products, the 2nd most regular kind of shopping (hopefully).)

For other types of shopping a thread like this might be boring, because the most frugal (and I am not among them ;) ) seem to be good at just...not buying things? On the other hand, per "Kitchen Disasters"  thread, that can sometimes backfire! (Someone made a cheesecake in an old springform pan and it didn't hold together!!)

ManlyFather

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2018, 03:36:14 PM »
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...
<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.

So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?

Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.

boarder42

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2018, 03:43:14 PM »
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...
<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.

So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?

Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.

My point was what you did saved a few bucks but wasn't hardcore. As you so think it is and then you start a thread to ask about softening of the forum. You clearly need your ego stroked for some reason. I didn't say you should have biked I just said what you didn't doesn't fit into the category of hardcore.
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ManlyFather

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2018, 04:29:13 PM »
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...
<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.

So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?

Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.

My point was what you did saved a few bucks but wasn't hardcore. As you so think it is and then you start a thread to ask about softening of the forum. You clearly need your ego stroked for some reason. I didn't say you should have biked I just said what you didn't doesn't fit into the category of hardcore.


Ah, I see where our disagreement lies - the definition of hardcore.  It looks like I believe that there can be scenarios where driving a car has some room for badassity, and you are believe that absolutely that nothing can be badass while driving a car.

I suppose we should agree to disagree, because it is unlikely either of us will change the other's mind.

Side note: please don't stroke anything of mine, including my ego.

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2018, 04:38:01 PM »
Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?

What's the raw temperature?  Windchill isn't that useful for "rolling" temperatures, IME - I rode year around in Iowa, all winter long, and I found wind chill to be useless.

Studded snow tires and some sort of tire sealant should cover that sort of riding pretty well, if you're interested in how to do it.

If you're dressed for the weather, 0F or so shouldn't be fatal... o.O
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ManlyFather

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2018, 04:56:12 PM »
Biking in those conditions with the windchill at -15F on unplowed roads in rural Wisconsin (which could result in my own death if I get a flat) is what you're advocating?

What's the raw temperature?  Windchill isn't that useful for "rolling" temperatures, IME - I rode year around in Iowa, all winter long, and I found wind chill to be useless.

Studded snow tires and some sort of tire sealant should cover that sort of riding pretty well, if you're interested in how to do it.

If you're dressed for the weather, 0F or so shouldn't be fatal... o.O

I didn't know there were such a thing as studded bike tires - do they work in 7" drifts?  I've seen fat tire bikes in the snow, but I don't have one (and won't buy one either).  Anyone who bikes to work in subzero temperatures through snow drifts and miles of unplowed roads in business clothes is pure badass.  I'm not a pure badass.

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Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2018, 05:21:53 PM »
Can't tell if you're trolling or just the garden variety paste-eater...
<70 posts vs. > 6200 posts kinda indicates which side the troll might be on. And the rest of your comment is beyond the pale. It has been reported to the mods as a clear rule #1 violation. When it's corrected, I will remove this post, so there's no record of your poor manners. You're welcome.

So 6200+ posts user can justify encouraging a <70 posts user to likely commit suicide by hypothermia and not be assumed to be either a troll or daft?

Back on topic though, it seems like the forum is softening.

My point was what you did saved a few bucks but wasn't hardcore. As you so think it is and then you start a thread to ask about softening of the forum. You clearly need your ego stroked for some reason. I didn't say you should have biked I just said what you didn't doesn't fit into the category of hardcore.


Ah, I see where our disagreement lies - the definition of hardcore.  It looks like I believe that there can be scenarios where driving a car has some room for badassity, and you are believe that absolutely that nothing can be badass while driving a car.

I suppose we should agree to disagree, because it is unlikely either of us will change the other's mind.

Side note: please don't stroke anything of mine, including my ego.

Since you're inviting facepunches while arguing over postcounts and focusing on postalcodes...

If you're aiming for badass, why do you even live somewhere that you need a car? I mean, I'll happily admit that this stuff is pretty low key for me at this point. When I got started in it, I was comparison shopping home baking whole wheat bread vs white and checking how many fractions of a cent more I used if I put sugar into it vs molasses... but now I'm "soft" and I just make wholegrain white bread each week and don't worry about the 7/16ths of a cent difference in margarine vs canola.

But back then... before I was even into MMM, I realized that living in Boondockville Buttfuck meant everything was inefficient, so I sold my house, sold my car, and relocated and got a new job. THAT WAS BEFORE MMM. If you want to start throwing facepunches, lets start with your lifestyle choice that just screams inefficient environmental disaster. Maybe you need to realize you're the dumpsterfire before you start harping on the forum.

And don't even start with climate as your excuse. That's utter bullshit. #Frostbike and #Vikingbiking are real things. Look them up.
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