Author Topic: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?  (Read 12987 times)

ManlyFather

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • Manly Father
Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« on: December 26, 2017, 01:40:42 PM »
I've noticed that when I've shared face-punchingly stupid articles about ridiculous spending patterns on this forum, there seems to be an overwhelming chorus of posters that actually argue FOR making dumb financial decisions!

Has everyone always been so soft?  Does anyone still read the actual MMM blog?

/rant

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3421
  • Age: 27
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2017, 01:43:22 PM »
Bluntly, no, everyone has not always been so soft.  See recent conversation here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/weird-fourm-coversations-has-the-community-gone-soft/

ManlyFather

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • Manly Father
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2017, 04:44:40 PM »
Thanks, Ketchup.  I'm a bit new to the forums (I avoided them while I read the blog in entirety).  I was expecting more folks to have frugal tendencies and/or interesting insights into life.  What I have noticed is quite a few posters that try to justify bad decisions with poor logic.

I read through most of the thread you linked - interesting stuff, and I agree with the softy comments.

Mods - feel free to delete this thread as it looks like this topic has already been fleshed out relatively recently.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3184
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2017, 04:56:50 PM »
Thanks, Ketchup.  I'm a bit new to the forums (I avoided them while I read the blog in entirety).  I was expecting more folks to have frugal tendencies and/or interesting insights into life.  What I have noticed is quite a few posters that try to justify bad decisions with poor logic.

I read through most of the thread you linked - interesting stuff, and I agree with the softy comments.

Mods - feel free to delete this thread as it looks like this topic has already been fleshed out relatively recently.

The problem is, every time there is an article about MMM, a bunch of people come here and sign up to the forum without really reading his blog or engaging with what he is really advocating. So yeah, there are a ton of people here who can best be described as “want to retire early, but don’t want to change their lives to get there.”

Fireball

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2017, 07:19:28 PM »
Thanks, Ketchup.  I'm a bit new to the forums (I avoided them while I read the blog in entirety).  I was expecting more folks to have frugal tendencies and/or interesting insights into life.  What I have noticed is quite a few posters that try to justify bad decisions with poor logic.

I read through most of the thread you linked - interesting stuff, and I agree with the softy comments.

Mods - feel free to delete this thread as it looks like this topic has already been fleshed out relatively recently.

The problem is, every time there is an article about MMM, a bunch of people come here and sign up to the forum without really reading his blog or engaging with what he is really advocating. So yeah, there are a ton of people here who can best be described as “want to retire early, but don’t want to change their lives to get there.”

Yes. I noticed a huge shift after the Tim Ferris interview.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5633
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2017, 09:08:06 PM »
There are some here that will say it all changed after the early Washington Post article (2013?)

Regardless, the larger this community grows, the more it will reflect the mainstream.

Forums, as with the economy, and as with life, run in cycles.

Noodle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1015
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2017, 10:43:57 PM »
Yes, the forum definitely has changed. When I started reading, around 2012, it was heavily focused on early retirement and much more hard-core about MMM methods. It also, to me, had a much harsher tone. I read the forums for close to a year before I was willing to post, because people were so hard on each other.

I think a variety of things have happened--a lot of the enthusiastic early birds have moved through their ER journeys and are busy elsewhere these days. Mr Money Mustache posts much more rarely, and his posts tend to discuss specialist projects which are fun to read about but less likely to get people fired up to imitate him. The population on the forums has grown much bigger and varied, and there are a lot more people who want to reach some degree of FI but aren't focused on RE--which is a much lower bar which accommodates more consumerist behavior. I also have some (probably unprovable) theories about the national mood--first, that the blog started in 2011, when a lot of people were still feeling the after-effects of the 2008-2009 economic downturn. With six years of economic improvement, people feel less at the mercy of their employers and less motivated to pursue FIRE at all costs. Second, I think that the MMM exaggerated-for-effect rhetoric lands differently than it did six years ago. "Face-punching" used to be a silly way to make a point, and now, when so many people feel concerned about the lack of civility in the United States, it doesn't feel as light-hearted.

lexde

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
  • Age: 28
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2017, 07:27:48 AM »
I am a more recent forum member (2015/16ish) and definitely notice the disconnect between the blog and forum. That said, I also think that MMM himself may have gone a bit softer in his recent posts and endeavors, too. When you gain this much popularity it’s hard to avoid becoming a bit more moderate, I think, since the ideas get diluted in the mainstream. It isn’t necessarily a bad thing, since getting more people to consume less probably has a greater “net good” in the world than catering to a much smaller and more dedicated following. But the forum has definitely strayed from its roots. Whenever I see early posters returning from a hiatus it’s the same conversation - “where did mustachianism go?”

I don’t know if we need a separate sub forum for hardcore or veteran mustachians, or what, but I would like to see some of the original views and voices come back.

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3421
  • Age: 27
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2017, 07:54:16 AM »
Every new wave of users brings the community closer to "normal."  It was definitely different 5 years ago when I joined up.  The first thread I started was about my (at the time) ~$600/mo budget living in my 500 square foot 1 bedroom house with three other people (I actually just sold this house a month ago after renting it out for a few years).  My ~$50/mo eating out line item drew fire back then - I'm sure at least one response today would be to spend more on something.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1505
  • Location: MA
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2017, 08:04:17 PM »
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog.  It isn’t about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle. 

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8429
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2017, 08:41:40 PM »
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog.  It isn’t about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.
That is a defensible position.

One can also note the first two sentences of the blog, from Meet Mr. Money Mustache:
Quote
"What do you mean you retired at 30?”

This is a blog about money.

zoltani

  • Guest
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2017, 10:09:59 AM »
Do you need validation of your lifestyle? Why would you care what others post about an article? I actually hate the anti-mustachian hall of fame. I think it is petty and judgmental. I think the need to post articles to point fingers and make fun points to a need for validation of your choices.

Most of us come here for tips on how to organize our financial lives. We take in that information then make our own decisions based on our own desired lifestyle and comfort. What that means is up to each of us to decide. The point is to make conscious financial decisions to help you along the path towards your goals, whether that be paying off debt, saving for retirement, or other.

As far as reading the blog, yeah I've been reading the early articles since day 1, but lately the blog has gone downhill, IMO.

Hey It's Me

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
    • Moe's Journal
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2017, 10:25:12 AM »
I try to find a balance between the hard-line stance of MMM and the fact that a saving rate of 35% probably includes a lot of waste, but is still mind-boggling for most Americans.

My inner dialogue is much closer to MMM.

ManlyFather

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • Manly Father
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2017, 12:55:05 PM »
Do you need validation of your lifestyle?

No.

Quote
Why would you care what others post about an article?

I'll answer a question with a question: why do you care about what I think?

Quote
I actually hate the anti-mustachian hall of fame. I think it is petty and judgmental.

Good for you?

Quote
I think the need to post articles to point fingers and make fun points to a need for validation of your choices.

It sounds like you're pointing your finger at me, and now I'm confused....

Quote
Most of us come here for tips on how to organize our financial lives. We take in that information then make our own decisions based on our own desired lifestyle and comfort. What that means is up to each of us to decide. The point is to make conscious financial decisions to help you along the path towards your goals, whether that be paying off debt, saving for retirement, or other.

You can learn from both bad and good examples of behavior.

Quote
As far as reading the blog, yeah I've been reading the early articles since day 1, but lately the blog has gone downhill, IMO.

It's good to have opinions about things.

Joking aside, I'm not sure if you're trolling or not.

PKFFW

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 364
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 02:44:27 PM »
I'm with zoltani on this one.

Read the blog, read the forum, make your decisions, live your life.  What does it matter if others on the forum are "soft" and not as "hard core" as you? 

Can't comment specifically on whether the "Hall of shame" board has "gone soft" as I've never entered it or read a thing in it.  I don't see the point of a board specifically about shaming people for their choices, even if it's all done in jest.  If someone seeks advice on their choices then by all means give it in a constructive and respectful way.  Otherwise it's just trying to make yourself feel good by crapping on other people for their choices.

As for the blog, I still enjoy most articles in an abstract intellectual way.  However, I do agree that the blog has changed focus a bit and most of the articles are now about specialist projects I have no interest in pursuing.  I can understand why that is too.  There are only so many ways one can say the same thing before it just gets boring and repetitive.  Spend way less than you earn, invest the rest, build up investments until the returns pay for your lifestyle and viola, you are FI and RE if you feel like it.  Keep repeating that ad nauseam and pretty soon the wouldn't be a blog at all.

2Birds1Stone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Earth
  • K Thnx Bye
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2017, 03:02:27 PM »
I would highly recommend the ERE forums.

Syonyk

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3369
    • Syonyk's Project Blog
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 06:38:12 PM »
That said, I also think that MMM himself may have gone a bit softer in his recent posts and endeavors, too. When you gain this much popularity it’s hard to avoid becoming a bit more moderate, I think, since the ideas get diluted in the mainstream.

My guess is that it's pretty hard to keep a nose to the grindstone laser focus on low spending when you're earning around half a million a year talking not spending much...

One other thing that I've seen is that the "MMM Approach" works very well if you live in suburbia.  It doesn't work exactly the same way everywhere, and for a while on the forums, talking about anything that wasn't "bikeable suburbia" got some pretty hostile responses.  You still get plenty of that for talking about trucks in rural areas...

Hey It's Me

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
    • Moe's Journal
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2017, 10:40:54 AM »
One other thing that I've seen is that the "MMM Approach" works very well if you live in suburbia.  It doesn't work exactly the same way everywhere, and for a while on the forums, talking about anything that wasn't "bikeable suburbia" got some pretty hostile responses. 

Also works pretty well in very urban areas, like NYC where there tends to be a lot of disposable income waste.

dougules

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
  • Location: AL
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2017, 11:07:23 AM »
I think the vast majority of people miss the entire point of the blog.  It isn’t about being frugal, it is environmentalism based counterculture philosophy that has a side benefit of resulting in a frugal lifestyle.

I also don't get how people miss the level of sarcasm and caricature. 

wordnerd

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 987
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2017, 02:20:11 PM »
I actually hate the anti-mustachian hall of fame. I think it is petty and judgmental. I think the need to post articles to point fingers and make fun points to a need for validation of your choices.

I'm going to defend the Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy (I think that's the right name?). Self-righteousness is indeed dangerous and should be used in moderation. But...our friends/family/neighbors/co-workers/advertisers/media/culture-at-large encourage us to spend and consume at ridiculous levels. Gentle mockery of these ideas (and how they play out in others' behavior) is a way to keep perspective, to remember that average consumption is, in fact, ridiculous. If you're spending all of your time mocking others' choices, that should prompt some self-reflection. But a little judgment? Just one way to stay sane in an insane world.

jinga nation

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 940
  • Location: 'Murica's Wang
  • Left, Right, Peddlin' Shite
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2017, 02:23:47 PM »
I actually hate the anti-mustachian hall of fame. I think it is petty and judgmental. I think the need to post articles to point fingers and make fun points to a need for validation of your choices.

I'm going to defend the Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy (I think that's the right name?). Self-righteousness is indeed dangerous and should be used in moderation. But...our friends/family/neighbors/co-workers/advertisers/media/culture-at-large encourage us to spend and consume at ridiculous levels. Gentle mockery of these ideas (and how they play out in others' behavior) is a way to keep perspective, to remember that average consumption is, in fact, ridiculous. If you're spending all of your time mocking others' choices, that should prompt some self-reflection. But a little judgment? Just one way to stay sane in an insane world.
It's also a refuge to vent out the stupidity observed on a daily basis. Sometimes you just gotta let it out and let it go.

soccerluvof4

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3378
  • Location: Artic Midwest
  • Retired at 50
    • My Journal
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2018, 04:08:45 AM »
I didn't even know there was a hall of shame. Been smacked on the wrist once in 4+ years by the Moderator but not sure I made it in there. Post/Do what you want and just roll with it. There were a few articles I posted I thought were interesting I shared and I would get a response saying "whats your point" .  The site has changed but I think a bit to the better.  All the blogs I follow seemingly have the same amount of know it alls and dumbshits. End of the day like in the real world I take cues from the ones on here I respect or are here for same reasons I am.

Dicey

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8215
  • Age: 60
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2018, 10:53:32 PM »
I started reading the blog very close to its inception. I lurked on the forum before joining in April, 2012.

I was never that hard-core in that I don't bicycle (I used to ride seriously for recreation, but not to commute to work.) and I never achieved a super high savings rate. I was well on my way to FIRE before it had an acronym. What resonated most for me was finding a tribe of reasonably like-minded individuals. I was no longer a lone voice, an oddball, a frugal freak...It made a huge difference in my life to find this place.

Pre- and post-FIRE, I choose to participate in this forum in hopes that it will make someone else's path easier.

This year, I was called out for even suggesting that something was face punch worthy. (It totally was.) My matter-of-fact delivery has been criticized more than once, so I've tried to tone it down to suit a new audience. Everything in life changes. This forum has, too. I still believe the pursuit of FIRE is an incredibly worthwhile endeavor,  so I'm planning on hanging tiptoeing around for the foreseeable future.

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8976
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2018, 10:33:12 AM »
I started reading the blog very close to its inception. I lurked on the forum before joining in April, 2012.

I was never that hard-core in that I don't bicycle (I used to ride seriously for recreation, but not to commute to work.) and I never achieved a super high savings rate. I was well on my way to FIRE before it had an acronym. What resonated most for me was finding a tribe of reasonably like-minded individuals. I was no longer a lone voice, an oddball, a frugal freak...It made a huge difference in my life to find this place.

Pre- and post-FIRE, I choose to participate in this forum in hopes that it will make someone else's path easier.

This year, I was called out for even suggesting that something was face punch worthy. (It totally was.) My matter-of-fact delivery has been criticized more than once, so I've tried to tone it down to suit a new audience. Everything in life changes. This forum has, too. I still believe the pursuit of FIRE is an incredibly worthwhile endeavor,  so I'm planning on hanging tiptoeing around for the foreseeable future.

Hi Dicey, this was my biggest benefit too, especially after years of Ex commenting negatively on my tight-wad ways, even though he benefited from them.  Hey, there are people even more conscious about how they spend money, I'm not totally weird! Yay!  And by some standards here I am a McSpendy-pants.  It is all about priorities.

Pigeon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1097
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2018, 10:49:23 AM »
From my experience, this is the way it goes for forums that manage to survive and that espouse strong non-mainstream views.  People will come and visit, and it's inevitable that newcomers will have a range of dedication to The Cause, whatever the cause might be.

You can decide to moderate the hell out of the forum, so that the less dedicated leave or just stop posting.  Over-moderation is pretty stifling though, and you tend to drive off a large percentage of all readers, even if they are True Believers.

If you don't opt for heavy handed moderation, you will naturally hear from the non-orthodox in increasing numbers.

I'm in the camp of non-orthodox.  I'm frugal, am very much FI, but not RE, and won't retire for a few more years.  I like the forum because I am a penny pincher, and I've learned about investing here, as well as getting some useful cheapskate tips.  But I'm not going carless, kicking my kids out the day they turn 18 or turning the heat down to 55.

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2018, 10:50:41 AM »
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.

FiveSigmas

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2018, 12:55:20 PM »
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.

Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.

BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.


ManlyFather

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • Manly Father
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2018, 01:43:52 PM »
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.

Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.

BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.

Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing!  Poor Sol was the only voice of reason.  I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2018, 01:51:52 PM »
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.

Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.

BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Advertising on this forum? Is that what people see when they don't use ad-block plug-ins? I vaguely remember my life before that. And taboola block plug-ins. And before I switched to commercial-free satellite radio. And before I switched to using an over-the-air antenna with DVR to skip all the commercials. Etc., etc., etc.

I couldn't block absolutely every advertisement in the entire world, but I blocked enough of them to basically remove myself from the propaganda. When I get to the movies early (with a gift card) and see the commercials before the coming attractions, I am shocked by what I see. Particularly the advertisements telling people that nobody is going to want to fuck them unless they use their product.

FiveSigmas

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2018, 02:00:35 PM »
And before I switched to commercial-free satellite radio.

Do you prefer Sirius or XM?

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2018, 02:08:19 PM »
And before I switched to commercial-free satellite radio.

Do you prefer Sirius or XM?

They are basically the same thing, since they are owned by the same company and have almost all the same exact channels. I got a used Sirius radio with lifetime service off the internet for $400 a few years back and after two years of service it paid for itself, so now I have unlimited commercial-free radio for as long as the radio lasts (or as long as Sirius lasts, whichever is first.)

If I'm completely honest, it actually paid for itself probably within a few months just from the decrease in my spending once I was no longer hearing commercials. I was shocked when I noticed that.

I almost never hear commercials for anything. People will talk about products or funny commercials or whatever and I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3421
  • Age: 27
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2018, 02:15:03 PM »
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.

Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.

BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.
I'll piggyback on this and say that one of the best things one can do is eliminate advertising of all kinds from their life to the best of their ability.

No commercial-containing TV.
No commercial-containing radio.
Use an ad-blocker in your web browser (uBlock origin).
No magazines.
Don't even pretend to read the physical junk mail.  Put a recycling bin right by your door to dump it in before looking at your mail.
Unsubscribe from all the email lists.
No ad-supported versions of apps/services (like Pandora).
No Facebook/Instragram/Twitter/etc.
Don't read blogs about how awesome new things are (tech gadgets, media, etc.)

Bonus points:
Less-"realistic" media with no/minimal product placement (sorry Adam Sandler fans)
No non-text (print or online) news.
Avoid driving routes with billboards.

I do most of this.  I'm sure I'm forgetting some good ones.
When I get to the movies early (with a gift card) and see the commercials before the coming attractions, I am shocked by what I see. Particularly the advertisements telling people that nobody is going to want to fuck them unless they use their product.
This too, absolutely.  When I saw Star Wars a few weeks ago (big line so we got in early), I could not believe the fucking Coke and M&Ms ads before the trailers.  It seemed like a joke.

Related to movies though: I was never a huge consumer by any means, but more consciously eliminating advertising from my life has meant that I don't give a shit about most new movies anymore.  I used to see 12-15 movies a year back in the day, and I think the only ones I saw in theaters in 2017 were Star Wars and Dunkirk (Christopher Nolan could point a camera at a turd for two hours and I'd go see it).

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2018, 02:51:16 PM »
Don't read blogs about how awesome new things are (tech gadgets, media, etc.)

Oh God, the tech gadget blogs are horrible. So many tech products are absolutely worthless, but people spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on that crap.

The worst was when those ridiculous AirPods came out for the new iPhone. Instead of simply being able to buy a $10 pair of earbuds to replace your missing or broken ones, now you have to use AirPods that cost $159, because the iPhone no longer has a headphone jack. Then, you can inevitably lose the AirPods and pay $159 more. All for something that isn't any better than the cheap earbuds. And consumers eat this crap up. They line up to buy it.

And don't get me started on the $1000 iPhone. "It has facial recognition." What difference does that make? How does that improve anybody's life.

This is what we got instead of moon colonies. Jesus.

When I get to the movies early (with a gift card) and see the commercials before the coming attractions, I am shocked by what I see. Particularly the advertisements telling people that nobody is going to want to fuck them unless they use their product.
This too, absolutely.  When I saw Star Wars a few weeks ago (big line so we got in early), I could not believe the fucking Coke and M&Ms ads before the trailers.  It seemed like a joke.

Related to movies though: I was never a huge consumer by any means, but more consciously eliminating advertising from my life has meant that I don't give a shit about most new movies anymore.  I used to see 12-15 movies a year back in the day, and I think the only ones I saw in theaters in 2017 were Star Wars and Dunkirk (Christopher Nolan could point a camera at a turd for two hours and I'd go see it).

Yeah, I don't go to many movies anymore either. I don't even trust Rotten Tomatoes to let me know which movies are good anymore, because some professional reviewers are afraid to state their true opinions about films from some major studios. (coughDisneycough)

Besides, I've been alive long enough now to see these remade movies the previous two times they came out, so I'm done with them. I will say that Marvel movies are a freaking blast, though. Mostly because Marvel has been left to do their own thing by Disney.

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3421
  • Age: 27
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2018, 03:14:23 PM »
The worst was when those ridiculous AirPods came out for the new iPhone. Instead of simply being able to buy a $10 pair of earbuds to replace your missing or broken ones, now you have to use AirPods that cost $159, because the iPhone no longer has a headphone jack. Then, you can inevitably lose the AirPods and pay $159 more. All for something that isn't any better than the cheap earbuds. And consumers eat this crap up. They line up to buy it.
I'm just salty that I need a fucking Lightning-headphone adapter (that can break) to plug my iPhone 7 into my car.  Really two adapters, since I'm already using a cassette tape adapter (that can also break).  And then I still can't charge it at the same time.  Innovation.

bluebelle

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 203
  • Location: Toronto
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2018, 03:52:52 PM »
I think things have softened over the last few years.  I've been a lurker for years, and only created an account a few months ago.  I was always hesitant to post for fear of being ridiculed for not being hardcore enough.

I think more high income folks have found their way here (or at least they're posting now).  And I presume they are as shocked and appalled by some of their colleagues as I am of mine.  (I know of two people that set their alarms for 2:45am eastern to be among the first to preorder the IPhoneX, with perfectly functioning IPhone 7s - my IPhone 5 is working just fine, thanks for asking)

Everything is relative.  Is a couple with a combined family gross income of $270K soft because they spend $60-65K?  I know many on here would say yes, because there's "so much waste" in their budget.  And to someone making $50K, there is alot of fluff, but in my income bracket, I'm pretty conservative.  My best friend teases me about my price matching at the grocery store.

Am I "too soft" to be "allowed" here on the forum?  Maybe, but I don't think so.  I like to think the forum is more inclusive than that.  Folks are welcome to ignore my posts, just as I can skip over ones that don't do it for me.

Whatever floats your boat folks.

zinnie

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 603
  • Location: California
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2018, 05:33:04 PM »
No, the forum has not always been so soft. I think it is a result of the audience widening, and the fact that MMM isn't posting much on the blog anymore. I'm not sure how many new forum participants bother to go back and read every single MMM post. I don't always do that when I join new forums, but I certainly did read every post here when it was all happening in real time.

I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.

Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.

BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.

Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing!  Poor Sol was the only voice of reason.  I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.

I remember seeing this thread, but I never clicked on it. I always assume it is consumerist nonsense when I see discussions of expensive products on here. But the Vitamix thread was quite the gem! I'm glad Sol held down the fort :)

I think things have softened over the last few years.  I've been a lurker for years, and only created an account a few months ago.  I was always hesitant to post for fear of being ridiculed for not being hardcore enough.

I think more high income folks have found their way here (or at least they're posting now).  And I presume they are as shocked and appalled by some of their colleagues as I am of mine.  (I know of two people that set their alarms for 2:45am eastern to be among the first to preorder the IPhoneX, with perfectly functioning IPhone 7s - my IPhone 5 is working just fine, thanks for asking)

Everything is relative.  Is a couple with a combined family gross income of $270K soft because they spend $60-65K?  I know many on here would say yes, because there's "so much waste" in their budget.  And to someone making $50K, there is alot of fluff, but in my income bracket, I'm pretty conservative.  My best friend teases me about my price matching at the grocery store.

Am I "too soft" to be "allowed" here on the forum?  Maybe, but I don't think so.  I like to think the forum is more inclusive than that.  Folks are welcome to ignore my posts, just as I can skip over ones that don't do it for me.

Whatever floats your boat folks.

Added bold to respond to certain parts. I don't think it has to do with income level, as this forum has generally been composed of high-income people. Even with extreme frugality you can't retire in less than ten years if you aren't making very much to begin with. I think the change has been in how hardcore people are. The motto is "financial freedom through badassity," i.e. being as frugal/environmentally conscious as you possibly can while still living an awesome life. So a higher income doesn't justify more spending in the MMM philosophy. As you know there is also the concept of the "face punch," or calling out/ shaming other people or yourself for unnecessary spending. In my view the entire tone of the place was intended to be pretty harsh, albeit in a joking/collegial sort of way.

I agree with you that there aren't, nor should there be, any rules about who is allowed on the forum. At the same time, don't be hurt or get defensive if you are shamed for unnecessary spending (I mean the general "you," of course.) I am sure there are a lot of places where people will pat you on the back and tell you that you made a really smart choice buying that Vitamix blender. It just feels like we are completely abandoning the concept of mustachianism if we allow that place to be here...

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2018, 06:49:29 PM »
The worst was when those ridiculous AirPods came out for the new iPhone. Instead of simply being able to buy a $10 pair of earbuds to replace your missing or broken ones, now you have to use AirPods that cost $159, because the iPhone no longer has a headphone jack. Then, you can inevitably lose the AirPods and pay $159 more. All for something that isn't any better than the cheap earbuds. And consumers eat this crap up. They line up to buy it.
I'm just salty that I need a fucking Lightning-headphone adapter (that can break) to plug my iPhone 7 into my car.  Really two adapters, since I'm already using a cassette tape adapter (that can also break).  And then I still can't charge it at the same time.  Innovation.

Yep. "Let's see how ridiculously difficult we can make it for people so they will feel compelled to shell out $159 for ear buds." It's such a racket. The whole tech movement. Very rarely do I notice something that is actually worth upgrading my equipment for, such as the changeover from 3G to 4GLTE or the change from 32 bit to 64 bit devices. Almost all other "technological advances" (especially in mobile devices) is completely worthless bullshit that doesn't make a lick of difference.

ManlyFather

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 79
    • Manly Father
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2018, 07:54:36 AM »
The worst was when those ridiculous AirPods came out for the new iPhone. Instead of simply being able to buy a $10 pair of earbuds to replace your missing or broken ones, now you have to use AirPods that cost $159, because the iPhone no longer has a headphone jack. Then, you can inevitably lose the AirPods and pay $159 more. All for something that isn't any better than the cheap earbuds. And consumers eat this crap up. They line up to buy it.
I'm just salty that I need a fucking Lightning-headphone adapter (that can break) to plug my iPhone 7 into my car.  Really two adapters, since I'm already using a cassette tape adapter (that can also break).  And then I still can't charge it at the same time.  Innovation.
The best part about this excessive spending on iCrap by the masses is that my VTSAX continues to make a bunch of money - thanks in large part to about 3% of this fund being Apple stock.
Yep. "Let's see how ridiculously difficult we can make it for people so they will feel compelled to shell out $159 for ear buds." It's such a racket. The whole tech movement. Very rarely do I notice something that is actually worth upgrading my equipment for, such as the changeover from 3G to 4GLTE or the change from 32 bit to 64 bit devices. Almost all other "technological advances" (especially in mobile devices) is completely worthless bullshit that doesn't make a lick of difference.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 12:52:03 PM by ManlyFather »

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2061
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2018, 11:05:17 AM »
No commercial-containing TV.
No commercial-containing radio.
Use an ad-blocker in your web browser (uBlock origin).
No magazines.
Don't even pretend to read the physical junk mail.  Put a recycling bin right by your door to dump it in before looking at your mail.
Unsubscribe from all the email lists.
No ad-supported versions of apps/services (like Pandora).
No Facebook/Instragram/Twitter/etc.
Don't read blogs about how awesome new things are (tech gadgets, media, etc.)

Bonus points:
Less-"realistic" media with no/minimal product placement (sorry Adam Sandler fans)
No non-text (print or online) news.
Avoid driving routes with billboards.

I do most of this.  I'm sure I'm forgetting some good ones.

When I was living overseas years ago pre-internet I found myself unexpectedly insulated from most advertising, politics, pop culture, etc b/c it took a bigger effort to participate. The resulting mental free space  was really great and I prefer it that way even today.

We've done much of what you detailed. Added benefit it has really helped us raise our children to not be spendypants. They have nice things but we aren't chasing every dollar and diming fad or brand.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1059
  • Age: 29
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2018, 11:18:48 AM »
I was looking for another story regarding a remote island where American television was introduced and had a huge impact on nutrition, consumption, and general levels of happiness (↓). Haven't found it but this is related:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/347637.stm

BookLoverL

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 215
  • Location: England
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2018, 12:04:51 PM »
Even though I only made an account recently, I've been lurking since 2015, and I definitely think there are a few examples I've seen of clearly luxury purchases being justified, such as the blender above. Maybe it stands out more to me, since I've had pretty low income the whole time, so it was more important to cut right back on my expenses.

Regarding advertising: if someone can't avoid seeing all adverts for whatever reason (eg. family or friends putting them on), they could try talking back to the TV/whatever, being like, "Nobody needs that! What a silly product!". Do this even if you're not totally sure you'll need the product.

"Another sofa sale? Nobody needs any sofas! Who in the country doesn't have a sofa yet who wants one?"

"Oh, look, it's another advert for plastic junk."

"Ha, who would be tempted by this!"

etc.

Try and get in the mindset that adverts are a load of rubbish and they won't work on you. It's the same as how I was raised to eat healthily by being elitist against junk food. "McDonalds! The bread tastes like cardboard! Why would I want to eat there?"

ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3058
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2018, 12:14:05 PM »
I am glad this thread poppped up again because I have been wanting to vent. For a moment there I was the only one on a study thread of someone close to bankruptcy arguing against a new car purchase and why it is not that tough to find a decent, reliable used car. Then the awesome @Laura33 piped up and set the thread straight, but good lord.

This is coming from one of the high-income softies on the forum as well. Dude, if we have used cars with our crazy net worth then you in negative territory certainly can too.

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2061
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2018, 12:42:09 PM »
Even though I only made an account recently, I've been lurking since 2015, and I definitely think there are a few examples I've seen of clearly luxury purchases being justified, such as the blender above. Maybe it stands out more to me, since I've had pretty low income the whole time, so it was more important to cut right back on my expenses.

Regarding advertising: if someone can't avoid seeing all adverts for whatever reason (eg. family or friends putting them on), they could try talking back to the TV/whatever, being like, "Nobody needs that! What a silly product!". Do this even if you're not totally sure you'll need the product.

"Another sofa sale? Nobody needs any sofas! Who in the country doesn't have a sofa yet who wants one?"

"Oh, look, it's another advert for plastic junk."

"Ha, who would be tempted by this!"

etc.

Try and get in the mindset that adverts are a load of rubbish and they won't work on you. It's the same as how I was raised to eat healthily by being elitist against junk food. "McDonalds! The bread tastes like cardboard! Why would I want to eat there?"

Be careful though. One of our children is a bit of a contrarian and says they LIKE commercials just to break with dear old dad. I think if I was to preach too directly I might push that child the wrong direction - towards consumerism! Consequently I'm beating around the bush a little more. I try to quietly preach the total cost of ownership lesson.

There is a literal mansion near us that this child has admired over the years. I've asked questions a few times if they knew what it would cost to heat and cool the place. Or to furnish it. Or repair it. No, I explain I don't know either but I'd guess it would be alot compared to our house.

Or on the topic of the supercars they admire on TV. Wow that Lamborghini is beautiful - did you hear what he said? The TV guy said the tires cost $XXXX dollars a set and it can consume a whole tank of fuel in mere minutes at full throttle. Expressing amazement and agreement without disagreeing about the wow factor of the car.

The teen/tween years can be difficult. ;)

As our kids have gotten older they have noticed how much advertising breaks into the TV watching experience when we stay somewhere with cable/SAT TV. And the places perpetually celebrated in teen/tween entertainment like the mall just aren't the same in real life. Not the big deal.

We keep them busy with real life fun stuff though.

BookLoverL

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 215
  • Location: England
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2018, 02:07:38 PM »
Quote
Quote from: BookLoverL on Today at 07:04:51 PM
Even though I only made an account recently, I've been lurking since 2015, and I definitely think there are a few examples I've seen of clearly luxury purchases being justified, such as the blender above. Maybe it stands out more to me, since I've had pretty low income the whole time, so it was more important to cut right back on my expenses.

Regarding advertising: if someone can't avoid seeing all adverts for whatever reason (eg. family or friends putting them on), they could try talking back to the TV/whatever, being like, "Nobody needs that! What a silly product!". Do this even if you're not totally sure you'll need the product.

"Another sofa sale? Nobody needs any sofas! Who in the country doesn't have a sofa yet who wants one?"

"Oh, look, it's another advert for plastic junk."

"Ha, who would be tempted by this!"

etc.

Try and get in the mindset that adverts are a load of rubbish and they won't work on you. It's the same as how I was raised to eat healthily by being elitist against junk food. "McDonalds! The bread tastes like cardboard! Why would I want to eat there?"

Be careful though. One of our children is a bit of a contrarian and says they LIKE commercials just to break with dear old dad. I think if I was to preach too directly I might push that child the wrong direction - towards consumerism! Consequently I'm beating around the bush a little more. I try to quietly preach the total cost of ownership lesson.

There is a literal mansion near us that this child has admired over the years. I've asked questions a few times if they knew what it would cost to heat and cool the place. Or to furnish it. Or repair it. No, I explain I don't know either but I'd guess it would be alot compared to our house.

Or on the topic of the supercars they admire on TV. Wow that Lamborghini is beautiful - did you hear what he said? The TV guy said the tires cost $XXXX dollars a set and it can consume a whole tank of fuel in mere minutes at full throttle. Expressing amazement and agreement without disagreeing about the wow factor of the car.

The teen/tween years can be difficult. ;)

As our kids have gotten older they have noticed how much advertising breaks into the TV watching experience when we stay somewhere with cable/SAT TV. And the places perpetually celebrated in teen/tween entertainment like the mall just aren't the same in real life. Not the big deal.

We keep them busy with real life fun stuff though.

Oh, I don't have any kids - I'm still young. ;) I just say this stuff to myself. And sometimes my brother, who's a similar age to me.

I agree kids (and some adults) can be very contrarian. I have a little of that tendency myself occasionally. Maybe I'm annoyed at the adverts for telling me I need all that stuff when I don't? :O

4alpacas

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1835
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2018, 02:22:55 PM »
I am glad this thread popped up again because I have been wanting to vent. For a moment there I was the only one on a study thread of someone close to bankruptcy arguing against a new car purchase and why it is not that tough to find a decent, reliable used car. Then the awesome @Laura33 piped up and set the thread straight, but good lord.

This is coming from one of the high-income softies on the forum as well. Dude, if we have used cars with our crazy net worth then you in negative territory certainly can too.
As a high-income softie with NO car knowledge, the "new cars are SO reliable" myth presented in the thread was ridiculous.  If I can buy a reliable used car, anyone can.  And @Laura33 always has great comments. 

I think the more press MMM gets, the more the commenters will soften.  I'm happy that there are still a few people just tell me I'm being ridiculous when I venture too far from the path.

Stay strong, badasses!  Softies like me need to get face-punched when I start hearing about how a Vitamix will change the way I eat.   

galliver

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2018, 03:55:21 PM »
I found MMM and the forums in 2013, I believe. I remember being rather surprised to find people with a car hobby, or a flying hobby, or a horse hobby, or a skydiving hobby (etc) on here, even at that time. Sure, maybe many of them were impressively frugal in their day-to-day lives to afford the hobby, perhaps even alongside a hefty savings rate, but it would be hard to argue that their spending and/or their ecological footprint could not be further lowered by eliminating these luxuries. And yet, if this is what makes their life worth living, what gets them up every morning, who are any of us to tell them it's stupid and wasteful? What if someone said that whatever made your heart leap with joy was stupid and wasteful? The fact is, most people have something they spend on that brings them great joy, which is a huge splurge/luxury if you ask someone else. And I suspect those that actually don't might have a really disordered attitude about spending in some way...

Like, it's totally cool by me if someone wants to live in a van to save money or whatever. Just don't try to push that on others like it's the only reasonable way to live and anyone who does differently is a dolt. Also like working is The Very Worst Thing Ever and it's incomprehensible how anyone would want to do it for any length of time...I'd rather work than live in a box...I mean van...personally. And as long as I'm working, or have money in the bank, I'll consider myself able to afford sour cream for my tacos even if it's NOT on sale and costs $.50 more than the last tub, and as many pieces of fruit as I (or SO, or our guests, or hypothetical future kids) can eat. That's just how extravagant I am. Yeah. Punch me. :P

Speaking of, I think Noodle makes a good point about the format of the rhetoric.
... the blog started in 2011, when a lot of people were still feeling the after-effects of the 2008-2009 economic downturn. With six years of economic improvement, people feel less at the mercy of their employers and less motivated to pursue FIRE at all costs. Second, I think that the MMM exaggerated-for-effect rhetoric lands differently than it did six years ago. "Face-punching" used to be a silly way to make a point, and now, when so many people feel concerned about the lack of civility in the United States, it doesn't feel as light-hearted.
I also suspect that a larger community in general is less amenable to more jocular interaction (more opportunities for it to get misinterpreted, people don't know each other well enough to put jokingly-offensive statements in context).

I'm here for the big ideas: money as freedom, reducing major expenses (like housing and transport), reducing consumption and minor expenses, living mindfully, finding other/different sources of joy, DIY. And while I don't have a strong opinion on the tone/attitude issue, I have seen from others that they were put off by the "hard core" approach, and perhaps afraid to post/ask for advice. It's only a joke if both parties are laughing, and a lot of people weren't laughing. I don't think that's a healthy atmosphere to create. And if the new atmosphere means people will argue about the merits of a $200 blender, perhaps lump-free smoothies are what make their life worth living? Or they make so much that $200 is minutiae in their book. I've no idea; I don't make that many smoothies, I didn't read the thread, and I have no intention to because there are plenty of more interesting discussions I can peruse when/if I want to...

zinnie

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 603
  • Location: California
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2018, 04:55:41 PM »
I am glad this thread popped up again because I have been wanting to vent. For a moment there I was the only one on a study thread of someone close to bankruptcy arguing against a new car purchase and why it is not that tough to find a decent, reliable used car. Then the awesome @Laura33 piped up and set the thread straight, but good lord.

This is coming from one of the high-income softies on the forum as well. Dude, if we have used cars with our crazy net worth then you in negative territory certainly can too.
As a high-income softie with NO car knowledge, the "new cars are SO reliable" myth presented in the thread was ridiculous.  If I can buy a reliable used car, anyone can.  And @Laura33 always has great comments. 

I think the more press MMM gets, the more the commenters will soften.  I'm happy that there are still a few people just tell me I'm being ridiculous when I venture too far from the path.

Stay strong, badasses!  Softies like me need to get face-punched when I start hearing about how a Vitamix will change the way I eat.   

I had this same thread in mind when responding here! :)

Indexer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2018, 04:47:27 PM »
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.

Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.

BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.

Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing!  Poor Sol was the only voice of reason.  I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.

WOW!  It's hard to believe that series of posts was on MMM. Yes, Sol did a great job holding down the fort.

Prospector

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10940
  • Location: The sunny side of the street
  • The late worm misses the bird.
    • Ride James Ride
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2018, 06:56:51 PM »
I think the key to bringing the newbies onto the MMM train completely is to encourage them to get rid of the advertising in their lives. That's what's brainwashed them to the point of getting combative when you suggest not buying dinner out or paying for cable TV. When they eliminate the "buy everything, you deserve it!" propaganda, they will start questioning society's narrative a little more. It took me some time to recognize what was worth spending and what wasn't. We can't expect newbies to get it immediately.

Not enough. Word-of-mouth is probably just as insidious as advertising these days -- especially in the world of Facebook and FOMO (not to mention people justifying $200 blenders). I really don't think it's possible to avoid or gain immunity to marketing. The best we can do is try and think critically about the sources we get information from.

BTW: Even this very forum has garden variety advertising -- scroll down to the bottom of the page you're looking at right now.

Wow, that Vitamix thread was pure dumpster fire, thanks for sharing!  Poor Sol was the only voice of reason.  I guess the forum has been going soft for quite a while.

WOW!  It's hard to believe that series of posts was on MMM. Yes, Sol did a great job holding down the fort.

I haven't been around here that much, only a few years, but in that time the forum has told me I need:

"The food Lab" Cookbook
"Instapot" pressure cooker
"Vitamix" Blender
"Honda Civic" or "Toyota Prius" car
"Somethingelse Pot" for when you are congested.

Yeah, the internal advertising is strong enough, we don't need the external stuff.

Has the forum gotten soft? Well, the guy who promoted muscle over motor is riding an E-Bike and enjoying recreational pot while considering the upside of a Tesla. We've all changed since this thing started. I like to think that our collective mindset has moved to less of a famine mentality and that we can now recognize where spending brings us joy. And if that is in a Vitamix, and you aren't up to your nuts in debt, then go for it. I mean once you are living comfortably and your debts are paid off who gives a fuck where you spend. I think the facepunches are reserved for folks who can't figure out consumer DEBT from Consumer SPENDING. And if your spending has you trapped in debt, then those punches should be coming hard and fast until your spending is in line with your income.

So yeah, we're softer now... mostly because we're richer now, and because we've learned where the line lies in each of our budgets and lifestyles. If I can afford a TESLA without affecting my 4% in a way that keeps me on a timeline I'm comfortable with... Fuck-you for saying I shouldn't.


(But I can't, so I continue to drive my cheap-ass Chevy Sonic until I can, thus avoiding your facepunch, and further softening the forum. Fuck-you once again.)

SimpleCycle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Location: Chicago
Re: Have MMM forum users always been so soft?
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2018, 07:48:58 PM »
I’m a soft upper income quasi Mustachian.  I’ve softened a ton over the years, since I was on the Simple Living Forums back in 2004 feeding two people on less than $200/month.  I’m in a different season of life, with a partner who’s not into FIRE and two small children.  But I’m still someone who chooses to live in a 2 br with two kids and drive an old car, and I really appreciate hanging out with like minded people.