Author Topic: Great Barrier Reef Dying  (Read 3584 times)

Jeremy E.

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1946
  • Location: Lewiston, ID
Great Barrier Reef Dying
« on: August 17, 2016, 07:55:29 PM »
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-11/great-barrier-reef-cost-to-save-reef-tops-8-billion-dollars/7721652
So I'm not totally caught up on this, but it seems there is massive coral bleaching, with 25% of the great barrier reef dying this year. Home to around 15% of all marine life, and the only living organism visible from space, I think of the Great Barrier Reef as one of the coolest things about our planet and hoped to visit it someday. It looks like there are estimates of $6-8 billion to help save the great barrier reef and that I guess is too much. Are you kidding me? People in the US are talking about things that cost us trillions of dollars every year, but 1/1000th of that is too much to save the great barrier reef....

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2016, 02:08:26 AM »
And to top it off... just a wee way inland we (sorry...an Indian firm called Adani) wants to build the worlds biggest coalmine.

The coal will be shipped out of Australia on gigantic freighters, navigating their way up and down the coast through, you guessed it, the Great Barrier Reef. Imagine if one runs aground.

All so that Indians can burn it and release billions of tonnes of CO2, further increasing the likelihood of destroying the reef for good.

Adani will create a couple of hundred token jobs in Australia, re-route the profits (if any) through Singapore or the Caymans, or Bermuda so they don't pay any tax to anyone, and the farmlands of outback Australia will be totally annihilated, because the Murray-Darling Basin will be poisoned with toxic coal mining by-products. The stupid things is, the Australian taxpayer will be subsidising them with cheap diesel fuel for the trucks and trains carting it around, as well as tax incentives for them to boost said token employment in regional Queensland.

It is a catastrophe in the making and all involved should be utterly ashamed of themselves. History will not look kindly on this.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23198
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2016, 07:01:17 AM »
People in North America are still arguing that climate change is a hoax.  You really think there's going to be support for fixing the problems caused by climate change?  Even if people cared at all about stuff that happens under the surface of the ocean (of which I've seen precious little evidence), half of them have such poor understanding of basic science that they would be demanding a homeopathic cure be applied.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20780
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2016, 07:05:07 AM »
^So cynical, so true.  Sigh . . .  Money the great god.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3797
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2016, 08:11:25 AM »
You know, for at least 30 years now, biologists and other scientists have been first anxious, then very worried, then freaking the fuck out in panic about these topics. And yet, the more evidence is gathered and the more scientist talk about it, the less traction they get. It's like fucking upside-down world. Most biologists in my circle have resigned themselves that they are nothing more than census takers on a planetary titanic of our own creation.

People persist in putting their heads in the sand about, or flat out denying, or pretending that god will fix, the horror show they are unleashing on their own species (let alone the umpteen other species we are willy-nilly going to take with us, which is what really pisses me off). I mean, who cares if ocean food chains collapse, right? I don't like to eat fish! Who cares if changing weather patterns cause extreme droughts, massive famine, political instability  and war, and ever-burgeoning refugee crises? It's not my neighborhood! Who cares if tens of thousands of species of animals go extinct? I wasn't gonna shoot em anyway! 

Our species is utterly disgusting, but really, I'm not sure we can help ourselves given how our brains are wired. Humans have the capacity to change, but they don't have the will to for any sort of problem that isn't immediate and obviously threatening. Why else are Mustachians so rare? At this point I'm pretty convinced the only way we aren't going over this particular cliff is if a super virus wipes out at least 80% of us.


jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2019
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2016, 10:33:48 AM »

Our species is utterly disgusting, but really, I'm not sure we can help ourselves given how our brains are wired. Humans have the capacity to change, but they don't have the will to for any sort of problem that isn't immediate and obviously threatening. Why else are Mustachians so rare? At this point I'm pretty convinced the only way we aren't going over this particular cliff is if a super virus wipes out at least 80% of us.

I think this is absolutely true.

Jeremy E.

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1946
  • Location: Lewiston, ID
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 10:40:04 AM »
And to top it off... just a wee way inland we (sorry...an Indian firm called Adani) wants to build the worlds biggest coalmine.

The coal will be shipped out of Australia on gigantic freighters, navigating their way up and down the coast through, you guessed it, the Great Barrier Reef. Imagine if one runs aground.

All so that Indians can burn it and release billions of tonnes of CO2, further increasing the likelihood of destroying the reef for good.

Adani will create a couple of hundred token jobs in Australia, re-route the profits (if any) through Singapore or the Caymans, or Bermuda so they don't pay any tax to anyone, and the farmlands of outback Australia will be totally annihilated, because the Murray-Darling Basin will be poisoned with toxic coal mining by-products. The stupid things is, the Australian taxpayer will be subsidising them with cheap diesel fuel for the trucks and trains carting it around, as well as tax incentives for them to boost said token employment in regional Queensland.

It is a catastrophe in the making and all involved should be utterly ashamed of themselves. History will not look kindly on this.
I didn't even know about this, seriously messed up.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 10:42:00 AM »
People in the US are talking about things that cost us trillions of dollars every year

Really? What are you referring to?

Or should I have said reef-erring to? :)

Jeremy E.

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1946
  • Location: Lewiston, ID
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 10:58:45 AM »
People in the US are talking about things that cost us trillions of dollars every year

Really? What are you referring to?

Or should I have said reef-erring to? :)
Lol, the 2 that come to mind are universal healthcare and universal basic income, I think some estimates for a single payer system in the US are less than $1 trillion per year and some are more, I don't really know what it would cost.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 11:20:09 AM »
People in the US are talking about things that cost us trillions of dollars every year

Really? What are you referring to?

Or should I have said reef-erring to? :)
Lol, the 2 that come to mind are universal healthcare and universal basic income, I think some estimates for a single payer system in the US are less than $1 trillion per year and some are more, I don't really know what it would cost.

Universal healthcare systems wouldn't cost anything. They would *save* money. Instead of everyone spending money on premiums and such, that money would be collected in taxes. But since overall healthcare costs would decline and healthcare cost inflation would also decline, we as a country overall would save money. Just getting rid of all the complexity around billing for care with multiple payers would save tens of billions per year (if not over $100 billion/yr).

UBI could cost less than you think too. It would replace SS, TANF, SNAP, WIC, UI, etc, so it would save a lot on those existing expenses. Probably not as much as it would cost though. And giving people more freedom to do the jobs they actually want could increase growth. It's hard to fully estimate the impacts.

Jeremy E.

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1946
  • Location: Lewiston, ID
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 11:30:55 AM »
People in the US are talking about things that cost us trillions of dollars every year

Really? What are you referring to?

Or should I have said reef-erring to? :)
Lol, the 2 that come to mind are universal healthcare and universal basic income, I think some estimates for a single payer system in the US are less than $1 trillion per year and some are more, I don't really know what it would cost.

Universal healthcare systems wouldn't cost anything. They would *save* money. Instead of everyone spending money on premiums and such, that money would be collected in taxes. But since overall healthcare costs would decline and healthcare cost inflation would also decline, we as a country overall would save money. Just getting rid of all the complexity around billing for care with multiple payers would save tens of billions per year (if not over $100 billion/yr).

UBI could cost less than you think too. It would replace SS, TANF, SNAP, WIC, UI, etc, so it would save a lot on those existing expenses. Probably not as much as it would cost though. And giving people more freedom to do the jobs they actually want could increase growth. It's hard to fully estimate the impacts.
I agree with you on universal healthcare and disagree with you on UBI, but this is not the right thread for this discussion, try the following thread,
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/would-you-support-a-universal-basic-income-(poll)/

cschx

  • Guest
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 12:06:25 PM »
Our species is utterly disgusting, but really, I'm not sure we can help ourselves given how our brains are wired. Humans have the capacity to change, but they don't have the will to for any sort of problem that isn't immediate and obviously threatening. Why else are Mustachians so rare? At this point I'm pretty convinced the only way we aren't going over this particular cliff is if a super virus wipes out at least 80% of us.

I share your evident frustration, but this sort of "scientific" rationalization isn't helping. It certainly does little justice to the many human societies that have somehow managed to avoid destroying their own habitat for thousands of years prior to the advent of industrial civilization, which represents a tiny sliver of human evolutionary history.

The destructive rampage we're currently on is 100% cultural in origin. It's a consequence of how we (Europeans in particular) have *chosen* to construct our ideas of self, nature, and in particular the economy. Those ideas can be changed at any time. If Mustachians want to make a change, they need look no further than the contents of their own portfolios.

NghtSkyyStarz

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2016, 02:07:15 PM »
Our species is utterly disgusting, but really, I'm not sure we can help ourselves given how our brains are wired. Humans have the capacity to change, but they don't have the will to for any sort of problem that isn't immediate and obviously threatening. Why else are Mustachians so rare? At this point I'm pretty convinced the only way we aren't going over this particular cliff is if a super virus wipes out at least 80% of us.

I share your evident frustration, but this sort of "scientific" rationalization isn't helping. It certainly does little justice to the many human societies that have somehow managed to avoid destroying their own habitat for thousands of years prior to the advent of industrial civilization, which represents a tiny sliver of human evolutionary history.

The destructive rampage we're currently on is 100% cultural in origin. It's a consequence of how we (Europeans in particular) have *chosen* to construct our ideas of self, nature, and in particular the economy. Those ideas can be changed at any time. If Mustachians want to make a change, they need look no further than the contents of their own portfolios.

I agree, it's best not to lose faith in humanity or the species because of the destructive cultural nature of a select few. Our western ideals that we perpetuate generation to generation are the true problem here. Well that and the vast majority of the U.S. accepting their education on global problems from the media who is not at all concerned in the slightest about the dying of the reef or the melting of the polar caps.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5278
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2016, 02:35:30 PM »
And to top it off... just a wee way inland we (sorry...an Indian firm called Adani) wants to build the worlds biggest coalmine.

The coal will be shipped out of Australia on gigantic freighters, navigating their way up and down the coast through, you guessed it, the Great Barrier Reef. Imagine if one runs aground.

All so that Indians can burn it and release billions of tonnes of CO2, further increasing the likelihood of destroying the reef for good.

Adani will create a couple of hundred token jobs in Australia, re-route the profits (if any) through Singapore or the Caymans, or Bermuda so they don't pay any tax to anyone, and the farmlands of outback Australia will be totally annihilated, because the Murray-Darling Basin will be poisoned with toxic coal mining by-products. The stupid things is, the Australian taxpayer will be subsidising them with cheap diesel fuel for the trucks and trains carting it around, as well as tax incentives for them to boost said token employment in regional Queensland.

It is a catastrophe in the making and all involved should be utterly ashamed of themselves. History will not look kindly on this.

Wait, what would be so terrible if a boat full of coal ran aground? Would it be worse than if a boat full of Apple computers sank, or a load of lead-painted toys from China or Harley Davidson Motorcycles from India?

Papa Mustache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1650
  • Location: Humidity, USA
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2016, 12:55:37 PM »
Wait - they make Harley's in India??? I've witnessed so much American flag waving by the Harley riders that this situation would be hilarious.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5278
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2016, 04:00:14 PM »
Wait - they make Harley's in India??? I've witnessed so much American flag waving by the Harley riders that this situation would be hilarious.

Some models are indeed produced there.  Also Honda USA employees more Americans than Harley Davidson motorcycles. The more you know...

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2016, 05:47:34 PM »
And to top it off... just a wee way inland we (sorry...an Indian firm called Adani) wants to build the worlds biggest coalmine.

The coal will be shipped out of Australia on gigantic freighters, navigating their way up and down the coast through, you guessed it, the Great Barrier Reef. Imagine if one runs aground.

All so that Indians can burn it and release billions of tonnes of CO2, further increasing the likelihood of destroying the reef for good.

Adani will create a couple of hundred token jobs in Australia, re-route the profits (if any) through Singapore or the Caymans, or Bermuda so they don't pay any tax to anyone, and the farmlands of outback Australia will be totally annihilated, because the Murray-Darling Basin will be poisoned with toxic coal mining by-products. The stupid things is, the Australian taxpayer will be subsidising them with cheap diesel fuel for the trucks and trains carting it around, as well as tax incentives for them to boost said token employment in regional Queensland.

It is a catastrophe in the making and all involved should be utterly ashamed of themselves. History will not look kindly on this.

Wait, what would be so terrible if a boat full of coal ran aground? Would it be worse than if a boat full of Apple computers sank, or a load of lead-painted toys from China or Harley Davidson Motorcycles from India?

Fair point but coal dust chokes the life out of everything. I've never seen an apple computer do lung damage to a living creature.

Maybe if the fishies start licking the China toys that could be damaging? :D

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4422
  • Location: CT
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2016, 07:39:18 PM »
Wait - they make Harley's in India??? I've witnessed so much American flag waving by the Harley riders that this situation would be hilarious.

Some models are indeed produced there.  Also Honda USA employees more Americans than Harley Davidson motorcycles. The more you know...


Shhhhhhh, the whole made in America thing and buying local is supposed to actually mean something...

LeRainDrop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1834
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2016, 08:16:32 PM »
You know, for at least 30 years now, biologists and other scientists have been first anxious, then very worried, then freaking the fuck out in panic about these topics. And yet, the more evidence is gathered and the more scientist talk about it, the less traction they get. It's like fucking upside-down world. Most biologists in my circle have resigned themselves that they are nothing more than census takers on a planetary titanic of our own creation.

People persist in putting their heads in the sand about, or flat out denying, or pretending that god will fix, the horror show they are unleashing on their own species (let alone the umpteen other species we are willy-nilly going to take with us, which is what really pisses me off). I mean, who cares if ocean food chains collapse, right? I don't like to eat fish! Who cares if changing weather patterns cause extreme droughts, massive famine, political instability  and war, and ever-burgeoning refugee crises? It's not my neighborhood! Who cares if tens of thousands of species of animals go extinct? I wasn't gonna shoot em anyway!

OMG, I want so badly to quote you to my biologist friend because she would love what you wrote!  (We learned about climate change in high school together in the late '90s.)  But I'm too afraid of real life friends getting tied back to me on MMM :-)

Leisured

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 696
  • Age: 79
  • Location: South east Australia, in country
  • Retired, and loving it.
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2016, 04:48:55 AM »
I am Australian, and am concerned for the future of the Great Barrier Reef. If rising sea temperatures are a problem, then new reef should appear in cooler waters south of the Reef, to counter any dying in the north. The Reef is in the southern hemisphere, so temperatures fall the further south you go. 

The article cited below says that there are reefs in the Red Sea which live in summer temperatures of 34 C. Apparently the secret is the species of marine algae that lives in the coral polyps. There are many species of such marine algae, and they differ in their preferences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_bleaching








arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2016, 06:49:06 AM »
Going to see the Great Barrier Reef next week, so this thread made me sad.  But following!
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2016, 06:53:36 AM »
You'll love it. There's still more than enough of it left see, but there's been a fair bit of bleaching this year. Outbreaks of Crown of Thorns Starfish don't help either.

A lot is said about our snakes and spiders, but there's another thing to pray you don't come across - the Irukandji (Box) Jellyfish. Nasty little critters.

Have fun :)

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2016, 06:56:59 AM »
Have fun :)

Thanks!  Really looking forward to it.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3797
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2016, 01:13:29 PM »
Have fun :)

Thanks!  Really looking forward to it.  :)

The giant clams were pretty groovy! Try to see those if you can.

mrpercentage

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1235
  • Location: PHX, AZ
Re: Great Barrier Reef Dying
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2016, 01:32:06 PM »
People in North America are still arguing that climate change is a hoax.  You really think there's going to be support for fixing the problems caused by climate change?  Even if people cared at all about stuff that happens under the surface of the ocean (of which I've seen precious little evidence), half of them have such poor understanding of basic science that they would be demanding a homeopathic cure be applied.

People still interested in conventional energy production because that's what the vast majority of rest of the world intends to use.

I intend to solve this problem by listening to Jack Johnson and investing in Exxon because any capitalist knows that gas must be priced high for the competitors to be worth while and by the time that comes around Exxon can just buy them and do that instead

https://youtu.be/BZWuYU2kcLg

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!