Author Topic: Grammar nazi  (Read 100543 times)

Prairie Stash

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #650 on: April 20, 2017, 09:22:13 AM »
It depends on whether you are a prescriptive linguist or a descriptive linguist. Language is constantly evolving. Take the use of the subjunctive. Is it "If I were a rich man" or "If I was a rich man"? I learned to say it the first way, but when I ask people which one is correct, most tell me that both sound right.
I saw something about forensic speech analysis for crime analysis and I think it was 12 or 13% of English speakers use the subjunctive tense and those are usually considered upper income and from highly educated backgrounds.  That's why I love those things -- because experts (and I'm not one) can tell so much about people just from how they speak.   But I don't know if the same will be possible after people who are born texting start to rule the world.
Its started already. Movies and music from the USA do more to influence and unify the English language than anything else. I grew up with certain regional words that were replaced by their American versions; you can tell when people started getting cable TV by their use of certain words. Backwater parts still use the old terms, people with the means to afford cable use the American terms.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #651 on: April 20, 2017, 10:19:45 AM »
^And most of Canada basically has one accent thanks to the CBC.  Newfoundland only joined in 1949, which is why they have the only really distinct Canadian accent.


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Rimu05

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #652 on: April 21, 2017, 08:03:28 AM »
When my brother was young, he was going to join the For-ee-jin Lee-jin.

I was planning a trip to Yo-sem-ite.

I remember pronouncing it yohs-might and everyone laughed. Then everyone was shocked that I didn't know what in heaven's name yoh-seh-me-tea (pronunciation here) was. Since, I wasn't born in the U.S, I'd never heard about it. The spelling is very misleading

solon

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #653 on: April 21, 2017, 08:19:13 AM »
When my brother was young, he was going to join the For-ee-jin Lee-jin.

I was planning a trip to Yo-sem-ite.

I remember pronouncing it yohs-might and everyone laughed. Then everyone was shocked that I didn't know what in heaven's name yoh-seh-me-tea (pronunciation here) was. Since, I wasn't born in the U.S, I'd never heard about it. The spelling is very misleading

I hear ya. I did grow up in the U.S. and I've always had trouble with Yosemite.

Kris

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #654 on: April 21, 2017, 08:21:06 AM »
When my brother was young, he was going to join the For-ee-jin Lee-jin.

I was planning a trip to Yo-sem-ite.

I remember pronouncing it yohs-might and everyone laughed. Then everyone was shocked that I didn't know what in heaven's name yoh-seh-me-tea (pronunciation here) was. Since, I wasn't born in the U.S, I'd never heard about it. The spelling is very misleading

I hear ya. I did grow up in the U.S. and I've always had trouble with Yosemite.


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RetiredAt63

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #655 on: April 21, 2017, 05:18:23 PM »
I grew up in Quebec so when I see French spelling I think French pronunciation.  Elsewhere, I have no idea how to say things with French spelling.  Des Moines?  And last names, that is a real mine filed when French has been anglicized, so many possibilities.

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Dee

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #656 on: April 21, 2017, 05:49:22 PM »
I recently misheard "parting of the ways" as "permanent malaise". (I know this was a pronounciation/hearing issue and has nothing to do with grammar but I found it amusing.)

BlueHouse

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #657 on: April 22, 2017, 05:37:50 AM »
But it's ROW not ROAD! And you hoe a row, then another... until finally the whole field is weed-free. A tough row has too many deep rooted weeds, and probably stones.

Exactly. A linguistics professor of mine wondered if the shift from the original "row" to "road" was because of our increasingly urban society. Perhaps most people have forgotten hoeing?
Or hoeing has a new meaning? I can't tell if you're being witty or don't know the other meaning, either way your post deserves a response.

"A tough road to hoe" is correct in urban centers. The old saying evolved; strangely it conveys the same meaning.
Is it correct because it has been used incorrectly so often that it is just accepted now?  and what is the other meaning of "hoeing".  Do you mean "ho" as in a slang form of whore?  I'm so lost.
Anyway, when does a misuse of a word or phrase become so common that it changes the meaning or adds an alternate meaning to the word or phrase? 
I hear literally is an example, but I don't accept it. What's next?  Irregardless because so many people make the error?  How are we going to continue to judge others if language is no longer a differentiator?  (Just kidding.  Sorta)
A hoe (or ho) is the slang form of whore. A tough road to hoe means the ho is having a tough time doing business, just like the original meant the field was tough to cultivate.

A phrase is acceptable when the person hearing it understands its meaning. When I talk to you I should use tough row to hoe, to an urbanite I could use tough road to hoe. In your example you used words that were used with incorrect meanings (literally), in my example there are two correct meanings; I judge when people just use the word incorrectly. Eventually though, literally will have a new meaning in the dictionary.  As the usage grows the new meaning will become the standard; that's the way English works or we would all still understand Shakespeare.
Haha. Sorry prariestash, I am an "urbanite" and can safely say that I have never heard anyone use the slang word "ho" as a verb and certainly not to describe how difficult their job is!  I am familiar with the slang use of the word, but that doesn't translate into another version of the saying. No, what you described really is a misuse of the phrase, coupled with an attempt to legitimize it. Really?  Have you ever heard the phrase "I'm going to go ho this road"?  Well, okay, but it's a tough one!  Ha. That is ludicrous.   I think this is an actual egg corn.
As for literally, the second definition (it's literal opposite) has already made it into the dictionary as an alternate definition!  I'm not ready to accept it yet, but as you say, language evolves and so must we.
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shelivesthedream

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #658 on: April 23, 2017, 03:43:53 AM »
People who use ellipses between sentences instead of full stops...I worked for someone who did that once...In her professional emails...I see it sometimes on Facebook too...Drives me absolutely nuts...In my head I read it out with a comically significant pause between each sentence and a meaningful "You know what I'm saying??" tone...

BlueHouse

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #659 on: April 23, 2017, 05:41:49 AM »
People who use ellipses between sentences instead of full stops...I worked for someone who did that once...In her professional emails...I see it sometimes on Facebook too...Drives me absolutely nuts...In my head I read it out with a comically significant pause between each sentence and a meaningful "You know what I'm saying??" tone...
...oops... Sorry.
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Kris

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #660 on: April 23, 2017, 08:24:31 AM »
People who use ellipses between sentences instead of full stops...I worked for someone who did that once...In her professional emails...I see it sometimes on Facebook too...Drives me absolutely nuts...In my head I read it out with a comically significant pause between each sentence and a meaningful "You know what I'm saying??" tone...

Even crazier, I regularly see people online who do this, but with commas.

So like this,,, I can't even figure out what they think this means,,, or how it ever occurred to them to start doing it,,,
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Dicey

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #661 on: April 23, 2017, 08:52:48 AM »
People who use ellipses between sentences instead of full stops...I worked for someone who did that once...In her professional emails...I see it sometimes on Facebook too...Drives me absolutely nuts...In my head I read it out with a comically significant pause between each sentence and a meaningful "You know what I'm saying??" tone...

Even crazier, I regularly see people online who do this, but with commas.

So like this,,, I can't even figure out what they think this means,,, or how it ever occurred to them to start doing it,,,
,,,oops,,, Sorry,
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TheBuddha

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #662 on: April 23, 2017, 03:19:45 PM »
People who use ellipses between sentences instead of full stops...I worked for someone who did that once...In her professional emails...I see it sometimes on Facebook too...Drives me absolutely nuts...In my head I read it out with a comically significant pause between each sentence and a meaningful "You know what I'm saying??" tone...

Even crazier, I regularly see people online who do this, but with commas.

So like this,,, I can't even figure out what they think this means,,, or how it ever occurred to them to start doing it,,,


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Prairie Stash

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #663 on: April 24, 2017, 10:01:51 AM »
Haha. Sorry prariestash, I am an "urbanite" and can safely say that I have never heard anyone use the slang word "ho" as a verb and certainly not to describe how difficult their job is!  I am familiar with the slang use of the word, but that doesn't translate into another version of the saying. No, what you described really is a misuse of the phrase, coupled with an attempt to legitimize it. Really?  Have you ever heard the phrase "I'm going to go ho this road"?  Well, okay, but it's a tough one!  Ha. That is ludicrous.   I think this is an actual egg corn.
As for literally, the second definition (it's literal opposite) has already made it into the dictionary as an alternate definition!  I'm not ready to accept it yet, but as you say, language evolves and so must we.
:) You can put "ing" behind almost any noun to create a verb, that's commonly accepted. I fully believe that if someone said they "were going hoeing" while wearing a short skirt and knee high boots you wouldn't think they were gardening. Road hoe's have been hoeing their way across the USA for decades, "Road Ho's" are commonly found at truck stops. (spelling change is an indication of the spelling commonly used at American truck stops)

As for never hearing it before, that's the beautiful part of English. The next time you hear someone misuse it you can draw up the mental image of them dressed in a trashy manner going out to meet someone. Trust me, you'll thank me when you hear people say it poorly now. By infecting you with the alternate knowledge I've now contaminated your mind to understand the misuse and visualize horrible images of normal people going hoeing. You might find a few humorous situations now, you're welcome :)

As for legitimizing it, I think I just did. The threshold for making new terms in English is low, both parties need to understand the meaning. Although I still literally hate literally.

BlueHouse

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #664 on: April 24, 2017, 12:21:38 PM »
Haha. Sorry prariestash, I am an "urbanite" and can safely say that I have never heard anyone use the slang word "ho" as a verb and certainly not to describe how difficult their job is!  I am familiar with the slang use of the word, but that doesn't translate into another version of the saying. No, what you described really is a misuse of the phrase, coupled with an attempt to legitimize it. Really?  Have you ever heard the phrase "I'm going to go ho this road"?  Well, okay, but it's a tough one!  Ha. That is ludicrous.   I think this is an actual egg corn.
As for literally, the second definition (it's literal opposite) has already made it into the dictionary as an alternate definition!  I'm not ready to accept it yet, but as you say, language evolves and so must we.
:) You can put "ing" behind almost any noun to create a verb, that's commonly accepted. I fully believe that if someone said they "were going hoeing" while wearing a short skirt and knee high boots you wouldn't think they were gardening. Road hoe's have been hoeing their way across the USA for decades, "Road Ho's" are commonly found at truck stops. (spelling change is an indication of the spelling commonly used at American truck stops)

As for never hearing it before, that's the beautiful part of English. The next time you hear someone misuse it you can draw up the mental image of them dressed in a trashy manner going out to meet someone. Trust me, you'll thank me when you hear people say it poorly now. By infecting you with the alternate knowledge I've now contaminated your mind to understand the misuse and visualize horrible images of normal people going hoeing. You might find a few humorous situations now, you're welcome :)

As for legitimizing it, I think I just did. The threshold for making new terms in English is low, both parties need to understand the meaning. Although I still literally hate literally.
I'm sorry, I just really cannot accept this. 

"Ho" started as an alternate pronunciation of whore.  It was an insult not only to the prostitutes, but also to a specific segment of people who pronounced the word without fully enunciating it.   

Maybe I'm the only one, but I won't bastardize a perfectly fine, time-tested, and honored English language idiom just because yet another uneducated person heard and uses the phrase incorrectly.  Especially when the word that it is based on is cruel and culturally insensitive to begin with. 

Don't mean to be a downer but I'm just not ready to jump in to that.  Ordinarily, I would think this was an overreaction, but since we're in the Grammar nazi thread:  nope...I'm standing my ground on this one.
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Prairie Stash

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #665 on: April 24, 2017, 02:46:06 PM »
Haha. Sorry prariestash, I am an "urbanite" and can safely say that I have never heard anyone use the slang word "ho" as a verb and certainly not to describe how difficult their job is!  I am familiar with the slang use of the word, but that doesn't translate into another version of the saying. No, what you described really is a misuse of the phrase, coupled with an attempt to legitimize it. Really?  Have you ever heard the phrase "I'm going to go ho this road"?  Well, okay, but it's a tough one!  Ha. That is ludicrous.   I think this is an actual egg corn.
As for literally, the second definition (it's literal opposite) has already made it into the dictionary as an alternate definition!  I'm not ready to accept it yet, but as you say, language evolves and so must we.
:) You can put "ing" behind almost any noun to create a verb, that's commonly accepted. I fully believe that if someone said they "were going hoeing" while wearing a short skirt and knee high boots you wouldn't think they were gardening. Road hoe's have been hoeing their way across the USA for decades, "Road Ho's" are commonly found at truck stops. (spelling change is an indication of the spelling commonly used at American truck stops)

As for never hearing it before, that's the beautiful part of English. The next time you hear someone misuse it you can draw up the mental image of them dressed in a trashy manner going out to meet someone. Trust me, you'll thank me when you hear people say it poorly now. By infecting you with the alternate knowledge I've now contaminated your mind to understand the misuse and visualize horrible images of normal people going hoeing. You might find a few humorous situations now, you're welcome :)

As for legitimizing it, I think I just did. The threshold for making new terms in English is low, both parties need to understand the meaning. Although I still literally hate literally.
I'm sorry, I just really cannot accept this. 

"Ho" started as an alternate pronunciation of whore.  It was an insult not only to the prostitutes, but also to a specific segment of people who pronounced the word without fully enunciating it.   

Maybe I'm the only one, but I won't bastardize a perfectly fine, time-tested, and honored English language idiom just because yet another uneducated person heard and uses the phrase incorrectly.  Especially when the word that it is based on is cruel and culturally insensitive to begin with. 

Don't mean to be a downer but I'm just not ready to jump in to that.  Ordinarily, I would think this was an overreaction, but since we're in the Grammar nazi thread:  nope...I'm standing my ground on this one.
I had to look up eggcorn, apparently its a newer word from the 21st century, in 2015 it was inducted into the dictionary. The definition of an eggcorn is that its correctly understand even though its said in a misheard way. By claiming the phrase is an eggcorn, you understand the same meaning but it has an amusing phrasing. An eggcorn apparently is an apposite, which means "highly pertinent or appropriate - Merriam Webster."

In calling "Road to Ho" an eggcorn, you're claiming that you understand and find it acceptable. I don't think you meant to use that term at all, quite the opposite. I had to look the word up and I make no apologies for looking it up for a grammar thread. It was fun to learn a new word, thank you for that.

I found an online link saying Road to Ho is an eggcorn too, I think eggcorns are meant to be taken in a positive manner. At least the way I read it; its saying something is understandable the way its pronounced and in itself pays homage to the mashing of words and phrases to create new words and phrases.

Oxford dictionary
a malapropism or misspelling arising from similarity between the sound of the misspelled or misused word and the correct one in the accent of the person making the mistake

[C21: based on the mishearing of acorn as eggcorn, which was considered to be apposite]

Further reading on eggcorn for those of us who enjoy learning a new word:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/30/410504851/eggcorns-the-gaffes-that-spread-like-wildflowers

BlueHouse

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #666 on: April 27, 2017, 11:55:05 AM »

I had to look up eggcorn, apparently its a newer word from the 21st century, in 2015 it was inducted into the dictionary. The definition of an eggcorn is that its correctly understand even though its said in a misheard way. By claiming the phrase is an eggcorn, you understand the same meaning but it has an amusing phrasing. An eggcorn apparently is an apposite, which means "highly pertinent or appropriate - Merriam Webster."

In calling "Road to Ho" an eggcorn, you're claiming that you understand and find it acceptable. I don't think you meant to use that term at all, quite the opposite. I had to look the word up and I make no apologies for looking it up for a grammar thread. It was fun to learn a new word, thank you for that.

I found an online link saying Road to Ho is an eggcorn too, I think eggcorns are meant to be taken in a positive manner. At least the way I read it; its saying something is understandable the way its pronounced and in itself pays homage to the mashing of words and phrases to create new words and phrases.

Oxford dictionary
a malapropism or misspelling arising from similarity between the sound of the misspelled or misused word and the correct one in the accent of the person making the mistake

[C21: based on the mishearing of acorn as eggcorn, which was considered to be apposite]

Further reading on eggcorn for those of us who enjoy learning a new word:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/30/410504851/eggcorns-the-gaffes-that-spread-like-wildflowers
Damn. I hate using the wrong word in the Grammar nazi thread!  Thanks for calling me out on that, because now I've also learned something new and interesting!  Huge Fail on my part. 

EDIT:  Fixed Quote indents after being caught by the Quote Police! 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 12:43:45 PM by BlueHouse »
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solon

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #667 on: April 27, 2017, 11:57:26 AM »
I think I need to start a "Quote] Nazi" thread...

BlueHouse

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #668 on: April 27, 2017, 12:44:03 PM »
I think I need to start a "Quote] Nazi" thread...

EDIT:  Fixed Quote indents after being caught by the Quote Police! 
No idea what you're talking about solon.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 12:46:08 PM by BlueHouse »
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solon

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #669 on: April 27, 2017, 01:16:34 PM »
I think I need to start a "Quote] Nazi" thread...

EDIT:  Fixed Quote indents after being caught by the Quote Police! 
No idea what you're talking about solon.

Good. My work here is finished.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #670 on: April 28, 2017, 08:40:49 AM »
Damn. I hate using the wrong word in the Grammar nazi thread!  Thanks for calling me out on that, because now I've also learned something new and interesting!  Huge Fail on my part. 

EDIT:  Fixed Quote indents after being caught by the Quote Police!
[/quote]
Its a pretty fun word, I like it. I went on a huge tangent reading all sorts of eggcorns. "Spread like wildflowers" instead of "Spread like wild fire" seems much more calming. I need to find an appropriate place to use the term, something along the ideas of a beautiful idea spreading and bringing joy, instead of the violent wild fire image.

I imagine there's a lot of regional eggcorns, it seems it would be very much based on local dialects. Since we don't locally have oak trees producing acorns, this term was new. I have to spend time think of eggcorns I use without realizing it. The closest I have is when I was four I regularly said "barnure" instead of manure, we had a barn full of cows and that seemed to make sense. Kids are delightful sources for words.

solon

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #671 on: April 28, 2017, 08:43:32 AM »
Damn. I hate using the wrong word in the Grammar nazi thread!  Thanks for calling me out on that, because now I've also learned something new and interesting!  Huge Fail on my part. 

EDIT:  Fixed Quote indents after being caught by the Quote Police!
Its a pretty fun word, I like it. I went on a huge tangent reading all sorts of eggcorns. "Spread like wildflowers" instead of "Spread like wild fire" seems much more calming. I need to find an appropriate place to use the term, something along the ideas of a beautiful idea spreading and bringing joy, instead of the violent wild fire image.

I imagine there's a lot of regional eggcorns, it seems it would be very much based on local dialects. Since we don't locally have oak trees producing acorns, this term was new. I have to spend time think of eggcorns I use without realizing it. The closest I have is when I was four I regularly said "barnure" instead of manure, we had a barn full of cows and that seemed to make sense. Kids are delightful sources for words.
[/quote]

Sigh.

MDM

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #672 on: April 28, 2017, 10:05:52 AM »
A grammarian may work from sun to sun but a quotist's work is never done.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #673 on: April 28, 2017, 11:36:23 AM »
I've thought of another thing I find bizarre.

I've seen it several times on this forum.

It's when people type in single-sentence paragraphs.

I find it intensely jarring and will usually skip over their post and not read it.

I understand that online paragraphs are often very short - maybe even two or three sentences long.

Reading long walls of text onscreen can be tiring.

But surely this is taking it too far!

Dicey

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #674 on: April 30, 2017, 10:48:32 AM »
Guilty.

As.

Charged.
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shelivesthedream

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #675 on: April 30, 2017, 11:03:38 AM »

deborah

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #676 on: April 30, 2017, 03:06:33 PM »
A paragraph embodies a thought.

People sometimes just want to use up space.

White space is good.



BlueHouse

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #677 on: May 01, 2017, 11:08:37 AM »
Guilty.

As.

Charged.

But...

Why?

For me, sometimes I use unorthodox punctuation and carriage returns when I think a pause deserves longer than a comma's amount of time.   I'm pretty sure nothing I've said in the past 20 years is deserving of enough emphasis to justify newly-created punctuation, so I think I'll stop doing that. 

Unless it's VERY. IMPORTANT. 
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Goldielocks

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #678 on: May 05, 2017, 11:54:52 AM »
But it's ROW not ROAD! And you hoe a row, then another... until finally the whole field is weed-free. A tough row has too many deep rooted weeds, and probably stones.

Exactly. A linguistics professor of mine wondered if the shift from the original "row" to "road" was because of our increasingly urban society. Perhaps most people have forgotten hoeing?

Maybe mixed up because it means the same as "A tough road to travel"..

Goldielocks

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Re: Grammar nazi
« Reply #679 on: May 05, 2017, 11:55:52 AM »
Guilty.

As.

Charged.

But...

Why?

For me, sometimes I use unorthodox punctuation and carriage returns when I think a pause deserves longer than a comma's amount of time.   I'm pretty sure nothing I've said in the past 20 years is deserving of enough emphasis to justify newly-created punctuation, so I think I'll stop doing that. 

Unless it's VERY. IMPORTANT.

You are a poet.