Author Topic: Georgia special election: so what?  (Read 11318 times)

MDM

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Georgia special election: so what?
« on: June 20, 2017, 07:13:08 PM »
Regardless of the eventual winner, a margin of a few hundred votes either way in one state's congressional district seems an underwhelming reason to say "Trump has been [repudiated/supported] by this result."

There may be some vicarious thrill from seeing "your" favorite candidate win.  But does anyone expect any tangible national change to depend on the final result?

Note: posting this early in the night when the partial results show ~a tie:

wenchsenior

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 07:59:25 PM »
Well... probably no one really cares except the media, politicians, and political junkies, and of course people who live in that district.

The race is only the second one since Trump won, so everyone is trying to parse the 'tea leaves', which will be meaningless unless there is a double digit win one way or the other.

Also, this is the most money ever spent to elect a House Member, so political players are taking note of what their money did or did not get them.

For the rest of us, this is probably  meaningless.

CupcakeGuru

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2017, 03:38:27 AM »
I live in the 6th distric and I can tell EVERYONE regardless of who you wanted to win is glad this is finally over. We have been bombarded with TV commercials, mailers (over 50 in the last 3 weeks), phone calls, cell calls, texts and even people coming door to door. Can't wait when all the stupid political signs come down!

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2017, 04:27:40 AM »
I have never seen a political climate this nasty in my entire life. Used to be that the Dems and GOP could at least reluctantly work together. Now your opponent is labelled as the spawn of Satan (as either side would say). You can't compromise with Demons and Witches, so not much is getting done in government these days. Sad. (As Trump would say.)

TheStachery

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2017, 05:58:33 AM »
Way too much money spent on these elections.  Over $50 million has been spent in the election. Money even coming in from liberal Hollywood.  (Trying to influence an election, sound familiar?)
I will say that with the Dems losing it only shows that people are sick and tired of identity politics.  The Dems are 0-4 in special elections even with T acting like a complete clown. 
So what?


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boy_bye

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 06:31:26 AM »
I have never seen a political climate this nasty in my entire life. Used to be that the Dems and GOP could at least reluctantly work together. Now your opponent is labelled as the spawn of Satan (as either side would say). You can't compromise with Demons and Witches, so not much is getting done in government these days. Sad. (As Trump would say.)

Here's the thing though -- Republicans are almost 100% responsible for creating this environment. Look at the healthcare bill -- when the Dems were writing and passing Obamacare there were hundreds of public hearings, opportunities for Republicans to contribute amendments which they did, and lots of conversation.

Contrast this with how the Republican leadership in the House and Senate have operated on Trumpcare -- everything negotiated behind closed doors and rushed through. No opportunity to collaborate. Plus, they blame the partisan atmosphere on Democrats after actively being super fucking partisan ever since Bill Clinton was in office.

The Republicans' behavior since Newt Gingrich and Mitch McConnell came on the scene has been pretty craven. The two parties are not equally responsible for it. So to flatten it out to "Washington is so partisan these days!" really is inaccurate. The Dems are responding to an environment which has been purposely created by the GOP, and I believe it's important not to forget that. It's untenable for the Dems to try to operate in good faith while the other side of the aisle is completely unwilling to.

BDWW

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 06:44:17 AM »
I have never seen a political climate this nasty in my entire life. Used to be that the Dems and GOP could at least reluctantly work together. Now your opponent is labelled as the spawn of Satan (as either side would say). You can't compromise with Demons and Witches, so not much is getting done in government these days. Sad. (As Trump would say.)

Here's the thing though -- Republicans are almost 100% responsible for creating this environment. Look at the healthcare bill -- when the Dems were writing and passing Obamacare there were hundreds of public hearings, opportunities for Republicans to contribute amendments which they did, and lots of conversation.

Contrast this with how the Republican leadership in the House and Senate have operated on Trumpcare -- everything negotiated behind closed doors and rushed through. No opportunity to collaborate. Plus, they blame the partisan atmosphere on Democrats after actively being super fucking partisan ever since Bill Clinton was in office.

The Republicans' behavior since Newt Gingrich and Mitch McConnell came on the scene has been pretty craven. The two parties are not equally responsible for it. So to flatten it out to "Washington is so partisan these days!" really is inaccurate. The Dems are responding to an environment which has been purposely created by the GOP, and I believe it's important not to forget that. It's untenable for the Dems to try to operate in good faith while the other side of the aisle is completely unwilling to.

It's definitely not [my tribe's] fault, it wasn't until [other guys] did this that it really turned. Never forget!

boy_bye

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2017, 06:54:36 AM »
I have never seen a political climate this nasty in my entire life. Used to be that the Dems and GOP could at least reluctantly work together. Now your opponent is labelled as the spawn of Satan (as either side would say). You can't compromise with Demons and Witches, so not much is getting done in government these days. Sad. (As Trump would say.)

Here's the thing though -- Republicans are almost 100% responsible for creating this environment. Look at the healthcare bill -- when the Dems were writing and passing Obamacare there were hundreds of public hearings, opportunities for Republicans to contribute amendments which they did, and lots of conversation.

Contrast this with how the Republican leadership in the House and Senate have operated on Trumpcare -- everything negotiated behind closed doors and rushed through. No opportunity to collaborate. Plus, they blame the partisan atmosphere on Democrats after actively being super fucking partisan ever since Bill Clinton was in office.

The Republicans' behavior since Newt Gingrich and Mitch McConnell came on the scene has been pretty craven. The two parties are not equally responsible for it. So to flatten it out to "Washington is so partisan these days!" really is inaccurate. The Dems are responding to an environment which has been purposely created by the GOP, and I believe it's important not to forget that. It's untenable for the Dems to try to operate in good faith while the other side of the aisle is completely unwilling to.

It's definitely not [my tribe's] fault, it wasn't until [other guys] did this that it really turned. Never forget!

If you can't see the difference, well, that's part of our problem.

Gin1984

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2017, 07:03:31 AM »
I have never seen a political climate this nasty in my entire life. Used to be that the Dems and GOP could at least reluctantly work together. Now your opponent is labelled as the spawn of Satan (as either side would say). You can't compromise with Demons and Witches, so not much is getting done in government these days. Sad. (As Trump would say.)

Here's the thing though -- Republicans are almost 100% responsible for creating this environment. Look at the healthcare bill -- when the Dems were writing and passing Obamacare there were hundreds of public hearings, opportunities for Republicans to contribute amendments which they did, and lots of conversation.

Contrast this with how the Republican leadership in the House and Senate have operated on Trumpcare -- everything negotiated behind closed doors and rushed through. No opportunity to collaborate. Plus, they blame the partisan atmosphere on Democrats after actively being super fucking partisan ever since Bill Clinton was in office.

The Republicans' behavior since Newt Gingrich and Mitch McConnell came on the scene has been pretty craven. The two parties are not equally responsible for it. So to flatten it out to "Washington is so partisan these days!" really is inaccurate. The Dems are responding to an environment which has been purposely created by the GOP, and I believe it's important not to forget that. It's untenable for the Dems to try to operate in good faith while the other side of the aisle is completely unwilling to.

It's definitely not [my tribe's] fault, it wasn't until [other guys] did this that it really turned. Never forget!
It has nothing to do with tribes, it has to do with reality.  If you disagree with the statement, back it up. 

MasterStache

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2017, 07:15:31 AM »
Way too much money spent on these elections.  Over $50 million has been spent in the election. Money even coming in from liberal Hollywood.  (Trying to influence an election, sound familiar?)
I will say that with the Dems losing it only shows that people are sick and tired of identity politics.  The Dems are 0-4 in special elections even with T acting like a complete clown. 
So what?


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Your logic doesn't support your conclusion. If the Dems are losing all the while the Repubs in charge of everything are essentially fucking it all up, it points to identity politics in action. Hell in Montana Gianforte physically assaulted a reporter and was charged with assault yet was still elected. Folks like this would normally be sent to jail (as would trump for sexually assaulting women), yet they are being put into positions of power. Party over country. Can't get anymore partisan than that. 

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2017, 07:47:34 AM »
I live in the 6th distric and I can tell EVERYONE regardless of who you wanted to win is glad this is finally over. We have been bombarded with TV commercials, mailers (over 50 in the last 3 weeks), phone calls, cell calls, texts and even people coming door to door. Can't wait when all the stupid political signs come down!

Will it actually end? We are already getting radio ads for Trump's reelection. ("This is Donald Trump and I approve this message. This ad paid for by Donald J. Trump for President.")

I liked living in Texas where no one bothered running an as.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2017, 08:54:15 AM »
It's definitely not [my tribe's] fault, it wasn't until [other guys] did this that it really turned. Never forget!
If you can't see the difference, well, that's part of our problem.
Other than what side of the issues they take, I don't see much difference at all in how
Barack Obama vs. Donald Trump, or
Mitch McConnell vs. Harry Reid, or
Nancy Pelosi vs. Paul Ryan
operate from their positions of power.  All are or were pretty much autocratic.

One can also compare
current Republican crafting the bill in secrecy vs. Democrat's "have to pass it to find out what's in it" and find plenty of blame on both sides.

Whether one wants to use pots and kettles or motes and beams for analogy, anyone unwilling to admit fault in the behavior of one's preferred party loses credibility.

boy_bye

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 08:58:06 AM »
It's definitely not [my tribe's] fault, it wasn't until [other guys] did this that it really turned. Never forget!
If you can't see the difference, well, that's part of our problem.
Other than what side of the issues they take, I don't see much difference at all in how
Barack Obama vs. Donald Trump, or
Mitch McConnell vs. Harry Reid, or
Nancy Pelosi vs. Paul Ryan
operate from their positions of power.  All are or were pretty much autocratic.

One can also compare
current Republican crafting the bill in secrecy vs. Democrat's "have to pass it to find out what's in it" and find plenty of blame on both sides.

Whether one wants to use pots and kettles or motes and beams for analogy, anyone unwilling to admit fault in the behavior of one's preferred party loses credibility.

I'm not unwilling to admit fault amongst the Democrats. I'm saying that if you look at the behavior of Barack Obama and Donald Trump and see it as equivalently bad, you are (1) being intellectually dishonest and (2) part of the major problem in this country.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 09:02:41 AM »
I'm not unwilling to admit fault amongst the Democrats. I'm saying that if you look at the behavior of Barack Obama and Donald Trump and see it as equivalently bad, you are (1) being intellectually dishonest and (2) part of the major problem in this country.
That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it.  One can debate the merits of various positions on the issues.

In terms of autocratic behavior, however, there is no difference between an executive order from a Democrat or a Republican.  Similarly, there is no difference between a majority Democrat senate or majority Republican senate passing a measure with no votes from the other side.

boy_bye

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 09:08:31 AM »
I'm not unwilling to admit fault amongst the Democrats. I'm saying that if you look at the behavior of Barack Obama and Donald Trump and see it as equivalently bad, you are (1) being intellectually dishonest and (2) part of the major problem in this country.
That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it.  One can debate the merits of various positions on the issues.

In terms of autocratic behavior, however, there is no difference between an executive order from a Democrat or a Republican.  Similarly, there is no difference between a majority Democrat senate or majority Republican senate passing a measure with no votes from the other side.

But there is a difference in respecting the judicial system vs. firing people from it and threatening them when you disagree with what they are saying about you.

There is also a difference in having open hearings on a bill that impacts millions of lives and 1/6 of the economy vs. drafting it in secret and rushing it through with the bare minimum of debate or analysis.

There is a difference in acknowledging the very real role of climate change on our civilization and making even small steps towards helping to mitigate it, vs. saying the whole thing is a hoax so you and your buddies in the oil and gas industry around the world can line your pockets with the last gasps of the carbon economy before everyone realizes it's not worth what you say it is.

Looking at your reasoning, I'm guessing you are probably an engineer of some sort, so you want to make everything binary. "Unless everyone is perfect, everyone is equally bad." But that's not how it works. Perfection/purity is an asymptote which no one ever reaches. That doesn't mean there is no difference between the attempts to do so.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Gin1984

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 09:11:11 AM »
I'm not unwilling to admit fault amongst the Democrats. I'm saying that if you look at the behavior of Barack Obama and Donald Trump and see it as equivalently bad, you are (1) being intellectually dishonest and (2) part of the major problem in this country.
That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it.  One can debate the merits of various positions on the issues.

In terms of autocratic behavior, however, there is no difference between an executive order from a Democrat or a Republican.  Similarly, there is no difference between a majority Democrat senate or majority Republican senate passing a measure with no votes from the other side.

But there is a difference in respecting the judicial system vs. firing people from it and threatening them when you disagree with what they are saying about you.

There is also a difference in having open hearings on a bill that impacts millions of lives and 1/6 of the economy vs. drafting it in secret and rushing it through with the bare minimum of debate or analysis.

There is a difference in acknowledging the very real role of climate change on our civilization and making even small steps towards helping to mitigate it, vs. saying the whole thing is a hoax so you and your buddies in the oil and gas industry around the world can line your pockets with the last gasps of the carbon economy before everyone realizes it's not worth what you say it is.

Looking at your reasoning, I'm guessing you are probably an engineer of some sort, so you want to make everything binary. "Unless everyone is perfect, everyone is equally bad." But that's not how it works. Perfection/purity is an asymptote which no one ever reaches. That doesn't mean there is no difference between the attempts to do so.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
And there is a major difference between the GOP of the past which would collaborate with the Dems and the GOP of today (and the last 8 years).. 

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2017, 09:30:02 AM »
But there is a difference in respecting the judicial system vs. firing people from it and threatening them when you disagree with what they are saying about you.
Both sides tend to respect the judicial system when it agrees with them, and disparage it when it doesn't.  E.g., Obama and Citizens United vs. Trump and the travel ban.

Quote
There is also a difference in having open hearings on a bill that impacts millions of lives and 1/6 of the economy vs. drafting it in secret and rushing it through with the bare minimum of debate or analysis.
Again, no difference in the effective process when one side does whatever it wants because it has a majority.

Quote
There is a difference in acknowledging the very real role of climate change on our civilization and making even small steps towards helping to mitigate it, vs. saying the whole thing is a hoax so you and your buddies in the oil and gas industry around the world can line your pockets with the last gasps of the carbon economy before everyone realizes it's not worth what you say it is.
That's an argument on the merits of an issue, so yes I agree that each side has a different perspective.

Quote
Looking at your reasoning, I'm guessing you are probably an engineer of some sort, so you want to make everything binary. "Unless everyone is perfect, everyone is equally bad." But that's not how it works. Perfection/purity is an asymptote which no one ever reaches. That doesn't mean there is no difference between the attempts to do so.
One could guess you are probably a ________ of some sort (and may guess incorrectly), but what difference does that make?

Paul der Krake

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2017, 09:37:14 AM »
MDM is describing the age-old problem of "it's okay when my guy does it, because his intentions are pure. Sometimes you've gotta make break some eggs".

When the power flips, it's used as precedent. Every administration pushes the boundaries of presidential powers just a little further, until Congress or the judicial branch puts to a stop to it.

Unique User

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2017, 09:57:01 AM »
Way too much money spent on these elections.  Over $50 million has been spent in the election. Money even coming in from liberal Hollywood.  (Trying to influence an election, sound familiar?)
I will say that with the Dems losing it only shows that people are sick and tired of identity politics.  The Dems are 0-4 in special elections even with T acting like a complete clown. 
So what?


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Funny how history is often overlooked.  No way was the RNC going to allow a Cabinet appointment of anyone that wasn't in a totally safe GOP seat, all appointments were of GOP that won by margins of 20+, but their replacements?  Margins of 5-6%.  I don't remember any of the open seats in 2009 after BO was elected even being close.   I also remember the media was full of "the GOP is dead" at that time.  But then the "dead" GOP won 63 seats in 2010 midterms.  I would doubt that any serious GOP strategists (repeat serious GOP strategists) think that margin erosion of 13-18 percentage points in safe GOP districts means good things for 2018.  Sounds like a bloodbath in the works to me. 

NeonPegasus

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2017, 10:09:04 AM »
I live next door to that district.

Had Ossoff won, it would have been an astonishing repudiation of Republicans; however, Handel winning is not, in any way, a statement of approval for Trump.

Ossoff was running in a district that has voted Republican since '92 and has been gerrymandered to continue voting that way. (https://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/3/6/1640743/-Spooked-Georgia-GOP-re-gerrymanders-Atlanta-suburbs-revealing-worries-over-House-special-election). Handel is a moderate Republican, not a majorly right-wing candidate. Had the Republican candidate been a super right-wing bigot, it might have been more difficult for a Republican in the 6th district to justify voting for him/her. That was not the case so there was no compelling reason for a Republican in the district to vote for a Democrat. After all, they can say that they were not voting for someone like Trump.

I wish Ossoff had won but it was never gonna happen.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2017, 10:46:15 AM »
It's definitely not [my tribe's] fault, it wasn't until [other guys] did this that it really turned. Never forget!
If you can't see the difference, well, that's part of our problem.
Other than what side of the issues they take, I don't see much difference at all in how
Barack Obama vs. Donald Trump, or
Mitch McConnell vs. Harry Reid, or
Nancy Pelosi vs. Paul Ryan
operate from their positions of power.  All are or were pretty much autocratic.

One can also compare
current Republican crafting the bill in secrecy vs. Democrat's "have to pass it to find out what's in it" and find plenty of blame on both sides.


Whether one wants to use pots and kettles or motes and beams for analogy, anyone unwilling to admit fault in the behavior of one's preferred party loses credibility.
It wouldn't be an equal comparison though. ACA had a ton of hearings and numerous amendments from the minority party. it was just so damn long no one was reading the whole thing. That doesn't make it right, but it is not the same thing as refusing to let the minority party or the public even SEE the bill.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2017, 11:29:29 AM »
It wouldn't be an equal comparison though. ACA had a ton of hearings and numerous amendments from the minority party. it was just so damn long no one was reading the whole thing. That doesn't make it right, but it is not the same thing as refusing to let the minority party or the public even SEE the bill.
Presumably we will see the bill and there will be debate, etc., before it is passed.

Yes, if the Republicans do some parliamentary trick to pass whatever it is before it is publicized and without any debate or allowing amendment proposals, that would indeed be taking things further than recent practice.  Let's see what happens.

Publicizing it, allowing debate, but then using majority rules to say "don't care what you think, we're passing what we want" would merely continue the status quo.

Gin1984

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2017, 11:46:33 AM »
It wouldn't be an equal comparison though. ACA had a ton of hearings and numerous amendments from the minority party. it was just so damn long no one was reading the whole thing. That doesn't make it right, but it is not the same thing as refusing to let the minority party or the public even SEE the bill.
Presumably we will see the bill and there will be debate, etc., before it is passed.

Yes, if the Republicans do some parliamentary trick to pass whatever it is before it is publicized and without any debate or allowing amendment proposals, that would indeed be taking things further than recent practice.  Let's see what happens.

Publicizing it, allowing debate, but then using majority rules to say "don't care what you think, we're passing what we want" would merely continue the status quo.
McConnell has already gone on record that they will NOT allow this to go to committee, that there will only be 10 hrs to debate, read the whole bill and propose any amendments.  Compare that to the ACA  The ACA had a historic number of hours of debate and amendments during Committee development of the legislations.  The House process spanned three committees - Energy and Commerce, Ways and means, and Education and Labor - with dozens of hearings over many months.
Specifically, the House held 79 bipartisan hearings and markups on the health reform bill over the period of an entire year.
House members spent nearly 100 hours in hearings, heard from 181 witnesses from both sides of the aisle, considered 239 amendments (both Democratic and Republican), and accepted 121 amendments (many of which were republican).
The Senate held dozens of public meetings and hearings in both the Finance and HELP Committees and accepted hundreds of Republican amendments. The HELP Committee held 14 bipartisan roundtables, 13 bipartisan hearings, and 20 bipartisan walkthroughs on health reform. The HELP Committee considered nearly 300 amendments and accepted more than 160 Republican amendments.The Finance Committee held 17 roundtables, summits, and hearings on health reform. The Finance Committee also held 13 member meetings and walkthroughs and 38 meetings and negotiations for a total of 53 meetings on health reform. [Senate Finance Committee, 5/3/10] The Finance Committee held a seven-day markup of the bill, the longest Finance Committee markup in 22 years, resulting in a bipartisan 14-to-9 vote to approve the bill. [Senate Finance Committee, 5/3/10] The Finance Committee markup resulted in 41 amendments to revise the bill, including 18 by unanimous consent or without objection. [Senate Finance Committee, 10/13/09] The financing of the ACA's coverage provisions was well known and debated.  When the bill came to the floor, the Senate spent 25 consecutive days in session on health reform, the second longest consecutive session in history. In total, the Senate spent more than 160 hours considering the health reform legislation.
The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office issued many reports on the Affordable Care Act's financing, clearly showing that revenue would be raised by the personal responsibility provision, also known at the individual mandate or free-rider penalty, in every case that it described the law's coverage provisions. [CBO, 12/10; The Washington Post, 9/24/14; ASPE, 9/24/14]
CBO also wrote extensively about how a properly-functioning insurance market would work as designed under the ACA. The entire purpose of insurance is to balance out the risk of healthy and non-healthy enrollees; anyone who believes that this point was avoided during debate of the ACA was simply not paying attention to advocates of the law as they described it during the many public hearings the law received.

So no, what is being done now is not status quo and the ACA was not "don't care what you think, we're passing what we want".  It just became something the GOP figured out to say after having a hand in all of it and pulled their members to vote no, instead of adjustment, after getting much of what they wanted via compromise BECAUSE they had become a group that compromise was a bad word.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2017, 12:05:27 PM »
McConnell has already gone on record that they will NOT allow this to go to committee, that there will only be 10 hrs to debate, read the whole bill and propose any amendments.
Yes, that is indeed what he has said.  And I agree that if that is what actually happens, it will be a new low - not only in Republicans vs. Democrats, but in Republican leadership vs. the rest of the Republican legislature.

It is yet possible that, as with many politicians, McConnell's actions will differ from his words....

Gin1984

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2017, 12:10:49 PM »
McConnell has already gone on record that they will NOT allow this to go to committee, that there will only be 10 hrs to debate, read the whole bill and propose any amendments.
Yes, that is indeed what he has said.  And I agree that if that is what actually happens, it will be a new low - not only in Republicans vs. Democrats, but in Republican leadership vs. the rest of the Republican legislature.

It is yet possible that, as with many politicians, McConnell's actions will differ from his words....
Actually the fact that he has stated this is already a new low and shows the difference between the ACA and this bill, as well as a difference between the GOP of my youth and the GOP of today.  Because this is not just the leadership, this came from tea party and from the fact that the GOP leadership has been able to get their members to go along with the behavior of the last ten years.

vern

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2017, 12:12:54 PM »
I'm an Independent voter but I really enjoy the media reactions to these elections.


dividendman

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2017, 12:26:42 PM »
The conversation above is funny. Very few people give a shit about how many committee hours or hours of floor debate are allowed on anything. If you think people on internet forums debating politics is the norm then you're in for a surprise.

People give a shit about:
1) What they're told
2) What actually impacts them
3) What side they think they're on

And that's it. So, to win elections you:
1) Tell people what they want to hear and tell them the other guy is saying things they don't want to hear (whether he/she said em or not)
2) Tell them that whatever you're doing is going to be good for them and whatever the other guy is doing will be bad for them (whether it's true or not)
3) Tell them you're on their side and the other guys is working to screw em (whether it's true or not)

And do the above in such a way that you win the most (electoral) votes. Note it's fine to be inconsistent to gain different voters in different areas.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2017, 12:42:26 PM »
Actually the fact that he has stated this is already a new low and shows the difference between the ACA and this bill, as well as a difference between the GOP of my youth and the GOP of today.  Because this is not just the leadership, this came from tea party and from the fact that the GOP leadership has been able to get their members to go along with the behavior of the last ten years.
I suppose we could debate "how low is low and who is the lowest of the low" but meh....

I do think Will Rogers's quote about political parties might apply more broadly these days.  Both parties tend to vote in lockstep when it comes to a vote but there does seem dissension within the ranks on how extreme they each should be.  One can hope the extremist pendulum will swing back some day to provide both "liberal Republicans" and "conservative Democrats".

J_Stache

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2017, 01:22:59 PM »
The Dems are 0-4 in special elections even with T acting like a complete clown. 
So what?
Actually, the Dems are 1-5, not 0-4, but who's counting?
https://ballotpedia.org/Special_elections_to_the_115th_United_States_Congress_(2017-2018)

Also, the 4 Dem losses were in heavily Republican districts.  The reason Trump chose Price, Mulvaney, etc. to work in his staff is because they were from SAFE districts where the special election would be a cakewalk for any Republican.  All the special elections so far have been closer than they should be.

Unique User

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2017, 01:29:08 PM »
The Dems are 0-4 in special elections even with T acting like a complete clown. 
So what?
Actually, the Dems are 1-5, not 0-4, but who's counting?
https://ballotpedia.org/Special_elections_to_the_115th_United_States_Congress_(2017-2018)

Also, the 4 Dem losses were in heavily Republican districts.  The reason Trump chose Price, Mulvaney, etc. to work in his staff is because they were from SAFE districts where the special election would be a cakewalk for any Republican.  All the special elections so far have been closer than they should be.

Everyone is counting it seems, but they forget about CA.  The SC-5 race got lost in the GA-6 noise.  Archie Parnell ran a clever campaign (his Matador ad referencing House of Cards is awesome) and lost by 3 points in Mulvaney's district that Trump won by 20 points.  I hope he runs again in 2018. 

iris lily

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2017, 05:16:52 AM »
I agree that this Georgia election is hardly an harbinger of things to come, or insight into the current mind of the ge erate American electorate. For all I k ow Ossoff was a strong, relateable candidate and that's why he got so many points on his opposition, it doesnt mean that Donald Trump prevailed.

Pundits and political analysts will pick apart the results for more days, ascribing meaning, but in the end they wont have real knowledge, only speculation.

These days the voters are kinda mad, but what they want seems to be for the boobs in power, whichever party that is, to give it up to those not in power. Rinse and repeat.


Gondolin

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 08:44:39 AM »
Quote
Money even coming in from liberal Hollywood.  (Trying to influence an election, sound familiar?)

If you don't see the difference between US citizens publicly funneling money into US campaigns and hostile foreign governments hacking state election commissions then I don't think there's any hope for you.

We do a pretty good job keeping this forum free of muddled innuendo so let's keep it that way.

Sockigal

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2017, 10:16:58 AM »
I just so happen to live in Georgia's 6th District. I agree with the above poster. We are going to be so much happier to not have all the campaign ad's, mailings, signs and door to door campaign workers in our lives 24/7. With that said, I wasn't surprised Handel won, due to Georgia being such a red state. However, I really dislike the fact that she won on an extremely negative & vile campaign. There were negative ads on both sides, but the ads targeting Ossoff were vile. Right away they started trying to link him as an ISIS sympathizer. They really like to play into peoples fear. Another Georgia congressman went so far as to say that the Washington DC shooting would win the republicans the district seat. And the ads actually used the shooting, tying it to Ossoff. Yuck! I knew since this is the way Trump became president we would continue to see hate filled politics and attacking opponents at every corner. In addition it seemed like Handel had a lack of any message on policy. She rarely spoke! She declined most interviews, didn't really talk to the public much and when she did, she wouldn't answer questions, just bring up bad stuff about Ossoff. Ossoff is pretty young and all the stuff was mostly untrue or just taken out of context. It was true that he lived outside the district, but only by a mile because his wife is going to college and they are living there until she graduates later this year. He grew up in the district. And if you live here, the district is drawn so strangely. It's gerrymandered to the ninth degree. The morning of the election Handel declined all the local TV interviews, while Ossoff was out there answering questions. She lost the debates by a landslide, because she just isn't a good speaker and didn't answer questions.

I guess my biggest point is, after all the campaigning, how can the public be so uninformed on Handel's positions, but still vote for her. The couple of things we know about her, she doesn't support a living wage, doesn't want LGBT to be able to adopt and had to resign from Komen Foundation due to not wanting to fund Planned Parenthood cancer screenings. Other than those things we learned through the debate she rarely spoke on issues. Ossoff was out there everyday, talking to the public, doing events. He was for a bipartisanship, growing jobs in the tech industry, growing the economy, fighting ISIS which he made a documentary film on, taking the tax burden off small businesses, ect... Plus he has loads of education in economics, while I think I read Karen Handel didn't graduate from college.

So why does it matter? Because this woman is who is going to be representing me and my family in congress. Another congressional person whom has very little charisma and doesn't seem to really want to represent all the people who live in the district. I had Republican friends who voted Democrat for the very first time, because they dislike Handel so much.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2017, 12:42:17 PM »
The GOP is obviously run by extremists right now, but extremism is also knocking on the door of the Democratic Party. When you have elected representatives talking about "hunting Republicans", it sends a very bad message. I use Facebook and since 2015 I have seen a massive uptick in pro-antifa (violent leftist extremists) and anti-moderate messaging from people. I had to block several people for posting memes in favor of murdering Trump supporters and police officers. I've never seen this kind of stuff in my entire life before now.

Yeah, the right wing started up the violent extremist stuff with their hyperbolic talk radio and online video channels and websites, but the left wing are no angels either these days.

DoubleDown

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2017, 05:12:24 PM »
When are the democrats going to get a clue and stop being so fucking nice? They say Ossoff took the high road in the election -- idiot. They'd better figure out how to get down and dirty like the Republicans if they hope to have any chance in the future. The Republicans have successfully gerrymandered districts so heavily in their favor and they use dirty tricks like not holding a hearing on Obama's Supreme Court nominee for over a year. Plus fake news from outlets like Infowars, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Democrats are going to continue to get their asses kicked and we'll be subjected to the outrages of complete and total assholes like Donald Trump until the Democrats pull their heads out.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2017, 06:09:48 PM »
When are the democrats going to get a clue and stop being so fucking nice? They say Ossoff took the high road in the election -- idiot. They'd better figure out how to get down and dirty like the Republicans if they hope to have any chance in the future. The Republicans have successfully gerrymandered districts so heavily in their favor and they use dirty tricks like not holding a hearing on Obama's Supreme Court nominee for over a year. Plus fake news from outlets like Infowars, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Democrats are going to continue to get their asses kicked and we'll be subjected to the outrages of complete and total assholes like Donald Trump until the Democrats pull their heads out.
Sigh....  And then we have Republicans saying pretty much the same thing, except in reverse.  E.g., "Romney was too nice", "Republicans In Name Only", "we'll be subjected to the likes of Reid and Pelosi", etc.

iris lily

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2017, 06:17:48 PM »
When are the democrats going to get a clue and stop being so fucking nice? They say Ossoff took the high road in the election -- idiot. They'd better figure out how to get down and dirty like the Republicans if they hope to have any chance in the future. The Republicans have successfully gerrymandered districts so heavily in their favor and they use dirty tricks like not holding a hearing on Obama's Supreme Court nominee for over a year. Plus fake news from outlets like Infowars, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Democrats are going to continue to get their asses kicked and we'll be subjected to the outrages of complete and total assholes like Donald Trump until the Democrats pull their heads out.
Sigh....  And then we have Republicans saying pretty much the same thing, except in reverse.  E.g., "Romney was too nice", "Republicans In Name Only", "we'll be subjected to the likes of Reid and Pelosi", etc.

Agreed. Is is amusing,, isnt it!

DoubleDown

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2017, 06:22:13 PM »
When are the democrats going to get a clue and stop being so fucking nice? They say Ossoff took the high road in the election -- idiot. They'd better figure out how to get down and dirty like the Republicans if they hope to have any chance in the future. The Republicans have successfully gerrymandered districts so heavily in their favor and they use dirty tricks like not holding a hearing on Obama's Supreme Court nominee for over a year. Plus fake news from outlets like Infowars, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Democrats are going to continue to get their asses kicked and we'll be subjected to the outrages of complete and total assholes like Donald Trump until the Democrats pull their heads out.
Sigh....  And then we have Republicans saying pretty much the same thing, except in reverse.  E.g., "Romney was too nice", "Republicans In Name Only", "we'll be subjected to the likes of Reid and Pelosi", etc.

As was noted above, there's always the matter of scale. Are there some down-and-dirty Democrats? No doubt. But I'm saying the Republicans have taken things to a whole different level. Consider it a compliment, of sorts. I mean, they're winning! The democrats are being pathetic, getting rolled over at just about every opportunity. The Republicans have successfully taken over enough state legislatures to gerrymander districts in their favor such that non-Republican candidates stand virtually no chance. And they re-write the rules, as we speak (such as not letting even their own party members see a major bill before it's thrown out there and voted on, not letting SCOTUS nominees through, denying or ignoring outrageousness/maybe-treason from the Commander in Chief because it's party before country, etc.). I'm saying if the Democrats don't figure out how to beat Republicans at their own game, they might as well just take their ball and go home right now and spare everyone the pretend-election-suspense like this recent Georgia election. They'll just keep losing like Ossoff did.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2017, 06:34:28 PM »
Reversion to the mean is a thing in politics as well as in investing.  As with investing, the big unknown is the timing on the cycle.

Whether Democrat/liberal or Republican/conservative, both sides forget that only ~1/2 the country agrees with them.  So, once in power and surrounded by their own echo chamber, they overreach and it comes back to bite them.

It happened to the Democrats when Obama came in, and it will not be surprising if it happens to the Republicans - we just don't know when.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2017, 08:31:15 PM »
Food for thought: Is the Left Also to Blame for Political Violence? | Vanity Fair.  Note that if published in say, The American Spectator, the title should read "Is the Right Also...?"

Quote
When events unfold as our side warned, it confirms our true narrative.
When events unfold as their side warned, it feeds into their false narrative.

When our side perceives an injustice at their hands, it is serious.
When their side perceives an injustice at our hands, it is overblown.

When our side gets violent, it’s because we’re at our wits’ end.
When their side gets violent, it’s because they’re full of sickness and hatred.

What our side’s experts say is science.
What their side’s experts say is junk science.

When our side picks a candidate, we rely on human reason.
When their side picks a candidate, they rely on animal instincts.

When our side questions the findings of their side’s experts, we’re skeptics.
When their side questions the findings of our side’s experts, they’re denialists.

When our side says something conciliatory, we’re being useless.
When their side says something conciliatory, they’re being cynical.

Davnasty

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2017, 09:00:22 AM »
Food for thought: Is the Left Also to Blame for Political Violence? | Vanity Fair.  Note that if published in say, The American Spectator, the title should read "Is the Right Also...?"
Yes, both sides are to blame when it comes to violence. But those are typically the extremists of either side - People looking for a fight and who are largely ignorant of what's going on.

But we're not talking about those people or about violence, we're talking about people outraged by the current situation. Many of those people are not democrats, many are even republicans. I know republicans amongst family and friends who used to watch fox news but can no longer stomach it.

While I don't agree with DoubleDown that democratic candidates should stoop to their level, I do agree with the comment on scale. You can say "both sides do it" all you want, but you're pretending that this is standard fare. And maybe democrats/republicans have brought this upon themselves. Too much time 'crying wolf' so to speak, but that doesn't mean you should stop seeing the situation for what it is. If you hear the boy cry wolf you may ignore him... but what if you saw the wolf coming?

You've taken a morally superior stance and now see yourself as the wise old sage, above taking sides, totally independent.
And you're right in a lot of respects. But I have to wonder, at what point would you take sides?

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2017, 09:40:24 AM »
But I have to wonder, at what point would you take sides?
Every time I vote.

Much of what gets discussed in the media - and even in this forum - is speculation about what might happen, or might have happened.  I take what pretty much what any politician says with many grains of salt.  With Trump, closer to a full shaker.

This forum clearly leans left, so someone in the center probably irritates more people here from the left than from the right.  I do find it interesting to see different perspectives.  Don't know about being a wise old sage, as that seems to imply someone who knows it all.  Engaging with folks from a variety of perspectives is a good way to keep learning, is it not?  Echo chambers are poor teachers.

DoubleDown

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2017, 09:54:46 AM »
While I don't agree with DoubleDown that democratic candidates should stoop to their level, I do agree with the comment on scale.

Just wanted to point out a subtle but important distinction in my position. I'm not saying democrats should stoop to the level of republicans (the behavior of Republican party leadership vis a vis Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, etc. is reprehensible IMO), but that candidates better stop being "nice" if they want to win. I've heard no indication that Karen Handel ran an underhanded campaign, for example. But her party at large is up to some real nasty stuff that I do not want replicated by Democrats or anyone. I did read (I don't live there, so I didn't get bombarded by ads to speak from firsthand experience) that Ossoff "took the high road" in the election , refusing to speak plainly against Donald Trump or mention his name in his campaign. He should have.

Ossoff had a tall order upsetting Handel in that district, but it was very doable. Who knows for sure if being more aggressive would have helped, but I think it would have. He should have gone after Handel and her party and Trump by name with everything and the kitchen sink, pinning all the nastiness he could on them. Look at the following Bernie Sanders, a really old man, got by being a firebrand. I do not like Bernie Sanders' positions, but that's the kind of charisma and anger at the system the Democrats need to tap into, or they'll just keep losing and losing and losing...

Davnasty

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2017, 10:28:04 AM »
But I have to wonder, at what point would you take sides?
Every time I vote.

Much of what gets discussed in the media - and even in this forum - is speculation about what might happen, or might have happened.  I take what pretty much what any politician says with many grains of salt.  With Trump, closer to a full shaker.

This forum clearly leans left, so someone in the center probably irritates more people here from the left than from the right. I do find it interesting to see different perspectives.  Don't know about being a wise old sage, as that seems to imply someone who knows it all.  Engaging with folks from a variety of perspectives is a good way to keep learning, is it not?  Echo chambers are poor teachers.
Fair enough. "taking sides" wasn't really the best way to express my meaning. I guess what I'm getting at is would you admit that some of the outrage is justified?

Personally I'm not on the gloom and doom train and I think the way the media speculates is downright irresponsible. However I think  speculation is necessary in some sense because that's what politics is. We make x change with the hope that we get result y. Or at least that's what it should be. The reality is more like convince voters that x change will give result y using extremely effective marketing tactics, all while the real goal is z.

I'm not so sure I would agree that this forum clearly leans left. I think it leans a bit but would have much less so before 2016. I still think it is a good place for learning. I try to visit conservative forums but haven't found anything that doesn't make me want to cry. That's probably a symptom of internet anonymity making people act like jerks more than the average conservative being one. Some liberal forums are just as polarized.

Long story short, I was mostly responding to your earlier post that Obama's actions were equivalent to Trumps. If you meant that from a legal stance, maybe there's some truth there, but from a moral stance? Well I can't agree with that.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 12:46:15 PM by Dabnasty »

iris lily

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2017, 10:17:05 AM »
But I have to wonder, at what point would you take sides?
Every time I vote.

Much of what gets discussed in the media - and even in this forum - is speculation about what might happen, or might have happened.  I take what pretty much what any politician says with many grains of salt.  With Trump, closer to a full shaker.

This forum clearly leans left, so someone in the center probably irritates more people here from the left than from the right. I do find it interesting to see different perspectives.  Don't know about being a wise old sage, as that seems to imply someone who knows it all.  Engaging with folks from a variety of perspectives is a good way to keep learning, is it not?  Echo chambers are poor teachers.
Fair enough. "taking sides" wasn't really the best way to express my meaning. I guess what I'm getting at is would you admit that some of the outrage is justified?

Personally I'm not on the gloom and doom train and I think the way the media speculates is downright irresponsible. However I think  speculation is necessary in some sense because that's what politics is. We make x change with the hope that we get result y. Or at least that's what it should be. The reality is more like convince voters that x change will give result y using extremely effective marketing tactics, all while the real goal is z.

I'm not so sure I would agree that this forum clearly leans left. I think it leans a bit but would have much less so before 2016. I still think it is a good place for learning. I try to visit conservative forums but haven't found anything that doesn't make me want to cry. That's probably a symptom of internet anonymity making people act like jerks more than the average conservative being one. Some liberal forums are just as polarized.

Long story short, I was mostly responding to your earlier post that Obama's actions were equivalent to Trumps. If you meant that from a legal stance, maybe there's some truth there, but from a moral stance? Well I can't agree with that.
The forum clearly leans left. Look at previous polls on this topic, completed by forum members.

MDM

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2017, 10:14:31 PM »
Fair enough. "taking sides" wasn't really the best way to express my meaning. I guess what I'm getting at is would you admit that some of the outrage is justified?
Of course.  The general population should be outraged at a long list of actions taken by "leaders" in this country, both political and corporate - but the outrage often is misdirected.

Quote
Personally I'm not on the gloom and doom train and I think the way the media speculates is downright irresponsible. However I think  speculation is necessary in some sense because that's what politics is. We make x change with the hope that we get result y. Or at least that's what it should be. The reality is more like convince voters that x change will give result y using extremely effective marketing tactics, all while the real goal is z.
I can't improve on that position!  Also, I think this relates to why people's outrage is misdirected.  As the old saying goes, even if the press doesn't change the way you think, it can change what you think about.

Quote
I'm not so sure I would agree that this forum clearly leans left. I think it leans a bit but would have much less so before 2016. I still think it is a good place for learning. I try to visit conservative forums but haven't found anything that doesn't make me want to cry. That's probably a symptom of internet anonymity making people act like jerks more than the average conservative being one. Some liberal forums are just as polarized.
My definition of "clearly" aligns with iris lily's comment: of all the polls I've seen in this forum, 100% show a bias to the left.  Polls do not truth make (see recent elections for examples of that, and forum polls are even less scientific), but they are the most convenient window to peer through.

Quote
Long story short, I was mostly responding to your earlier post that Obama's actions were equivalent to Trumps. If you meant that from a legal stance, maybe there's some truth there, but from a moral stance? Well I can't agree with that.
If by "legal stance" you mean "use of executive orders" then that is exactly what I meant.  From the earlier post:
Quote
Other than what side of the issues they take, I don't see much difference at all in how
Barack Obama vs. Donald Trump, or
Mitch McConnell vs. Harry Reid, or
Nancy Pelosi vs. Paul Ryan
operate from their positions of power.  All are or were pretty much autocratic.

And yes, I agree there is a wide gap between "what side of the issues they take" for all 3 of those pairs. :)


respond2u

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2017, 10:56:54 PM »
The GOP is obviously run by extremists right now, but extremism is also knocking on the door of the Democratic Party.

If having not 1 but 2 DNC chairs underhandedly work to sway the vote in favor of HRC is not extremism, what is? 

dividendman

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2017, 08:40:22 AM »
The GOP is obviously run by extremists right now, but extremism is also knocking on the door of the Democratic Party.

If having not 1 but 2 DNC chairs underhandedly work to sway the vote in favor of HRC is not extremism, what is?

What's funny about this comment, even if we assume it's true, is that they worked to the advantage of the centrist candidate, hence, not extreme in any way.

Extremism is pushing more to the fringes of the party rather than the center.

Clinton is what republicans were 20-25 years ago, and that might have cost her the election (i.e. many democrats wanted a more extreme candidate).

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2017, 02:14:08 PM »
The GOP is obviously run by extremists right now, but extremism is also knocking on the door of the Democratic Party.

If having not 1 but 2 DNC chairs underhandedly work to sway the vote in favor of HRC is not extremism, what is?

What's funny about this comment, even if we assume it's true, is that they worked to the advantage of the centrist candidate, hence, not extreme in any way.

Extremism is pushing more to the fringes of the party rather than the center.

Clinton is what republicans were 20-25 years ago, and that might have cost her the election (i.e. many democrats wanted a more extreme candidate).

I really had to shake my head about the opinions of the leftist extremists in the past election, because they clearly have no memory of the 1990s. Back then, Hillary Clinton was viewed by Republicans as the ultra-liberal Anti-Christ who wanted to turn the USA into a Neo-Marxist Communist nation. She pretty much had the same views then as she does now, except now she is in favor of gay marriage. In 2016, the leftist extremists -- powered by Russian propaganda -- became convinced that Clinton was a corporate ultra-capitalist neo-fascist who wanted the USA to turn into a Gilded Age dystopia. It was astonishing to see the lack of perspective.

respond2u

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Re: Georgia special election: so what?
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2017, 01:22:17 AM »
The GOP is obviously run by extremists right now, but extremism is also knocking on the door of the Democratic Party.

If having not 1 but 2 DNC chairs underhandedly work to sway the vote in favor of HRC is not extremism, what is?

What's funny about this comment, even if we assume it's true, is that they worked to the advantage of the centrist candidate, hence, not extreme in any way.

Extremism is pushing more to the fringes of the party rather than the center.

Clinton is what republicans were 20-25 years ago, and that might have cost her the election (i.e. many democrats wanted a more extreme candidate).

Brazile has confessed to passing questions. Wasserman-schultz lost her job over what she did.

Extremism is "advocacy of extreme measures or views". Violating the trust of your office in support of a particular candidate is a pretty extreme measure, wouldn't you say? One might so go so far as to call it corrupt. Non-extreme views of the Democratic Party would cause the leadership to work to allow the electorate to chose the representative for their party in fairly run democratic election campaigns (well, the electorate plus the super-delegates).

Extremism doesn't have to be on the left/right political axis.

Other things I find extreme that aren't liberal or conservative:
 - joking about killing someone else
 - assuming the worst of the other person
 - forgetting that two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!