Game of Thrones is back!!

[LittleWanderer]

Well, that was terrible.

[Kris]

Well, that was terrible.

I guess the plan is to leave us with nothing.

[wenchsenior]

Well, that was terrible.

I guess the plan is to leave us with nothing.

By nothing, do you mean nothing in terms of quality of the show?  That's fair, though I'm not as irritated as many people seem to be, given that I thought the author's plotting started going off the rails in book 4, and to pretty much complete shit in book 5. So the show has sometimes been an improvement.

Or did you mean in terms of nothing and no one happy and prosperous at the end?  I feel like it was inevitable from book 3 that this series was not going to end well for any of the main characters. It's just slow-mo emotional torture to get invested in any of them (which, of course, I am).

I will give the show credit for surprising me: the only character I ever was absolutely sure would live through the series was Arya, and on my short list of 'very likely to live', Varys was at the head of the line.  Oops.   Bronn is my other one, so we'll see how that comes out...

[Kris]

Well, that was terrible.

I guess the plan is to leave us with nothing.

By nothing, do you mean nothing in terms of quality of the show?  That's fair, though I'm not as irritated as many people seem to be, given that I thought the author's plotting started going off the rails in book 4, and to pretty much complete shit in book 5. So the show has sometimes been an improvement.

Or did you mean in terms of nothing and no one happy and prosperous at the end?  I feel like it was inevitable from book 3 that this series was not going to end well for any of the main characters. It's just slow-mo emotional torture to get invested in any of them (which, of course, I am).

I will give the show credit for surprising me: the only character I ever was absolutely sure would live through the series was Arya, and on my short list of 'very likely to live', Varys was at the head of the line.  Oops.   Bronn is my other one, so we'll see how that comes out...

Quite honestly, I guess I sort of mean that I just don’t care anymore.

I sort of agree with you about GRRM. I stopped reading midway through book 5.

I’m still processing. And wrote the above last night just after I saw the episode.

[PoutineLover]

I was sad that Dany systematically destroyed the entire city even after they surrendered because it was such pointless destruction and loss of life, there goes any chance of ever being beloved by her people, and it's so far from the Dany who cared about crucified children and ended slavery. But I think it sets up Jon trying to take back his rightful crown because he can't support her anymore. Kinda disappointed that 2/6 final episodes are mostly just cool cgi of battles and not actually dialogue or useful plot advancing stuff. There were some cool moments and some important character battles but it seemed like king's landing fell way too easily considering all the buildup. Still interested in what happens next week, but overall didn't love this season.

[Noodle]

I really wish they had taken some of that money they spent on dragon CGI and spent it on a few more episodes of actors' salaries. Two seasons (one for the Night King, one for the war for the Iron Throne) or even one longer one would have let them play out those plotlines in enough detail to have them make sense. I don't disagree that the series has been laid the groundwork for a vein of madness in Daenarys, but they've also spent a lot of time establishing her regard for the little people and how unusual that makes her in the Game of Thrones universe. They needed a little more to get me there.

One thing I am wondering now, though...is there a chance Tyrion kills Dany? Just because his brother was the one who killed the last mad Targaryen, from a similar position of trust. Probably Arya or Jon, though.

[Cromacster]

One thing I am wondering now, though...is there a chance Tyrion kills Dany? Just because his brother was the one who killed the last mad Targaryen, from a similar position of trust. Probably Arya or Jon, though.

When they were showing Arya surviving the destruction of the city all I could think of was "you just made the list!"  (for the WWE fans out there).

[Nick_Miller]

6/10, and that's mostly just because the brutality of the scenes made me cringe a few times, which means they accomplished something. There was also some really gorgeous scenes with the falling ash. Winter is coming = ash, not snow? Arya was framed in some very powerful visuals.

MVP: Drogan. I don't understand how he got so overpowered though? Does his fire have no limits? He just keep blowing and blowing and blowing...it would have been more realistic to make him need to rest or at least "recharge" to add a little tension.

Jaime was treated like crap. The dude deserved to go out swinging, but really after the writers had him go back to Cersei after...SHE HIRED A MERCENARY TO KILL HIM, I forced myself to distance myself from one of my favorite characters.

Same with Cersei. What a totally anti-climactic way for her to go out. Yes, it was pitiful, and maybe the point was to humble her by making her go out with a whimper instead of a bang, but still after 8 seasons with her as the most consistent big bad, it was very disappointing for me.

I guess I'm not too surprised by Dany though. She has lost everything, and has been outsmarted at every turn, due to her own stupidity or the stupidity of her advisers. She saw she had the clear advantage and she made sure there was no way she was being deceived this time. It doesn't justify it, but she was tired of getting jerked around.

I guess I have no idea how the story is going to wrap up with the Starks winning? (so maybe they won't!) Even the Northern armies were caught up in the brutality and Jon couldn't stop them. It seems they responded favorably to Dany's no-mercy approach, and so how does Jon pull them away from the Dothraki and Unsullied in a single episode? Not to mention, what happens to Drogan if Dany dies? If he goes nuts, no one can stop him. Is that possibly more dangerous than Dany guiding him?

[bacchi]

MVP: Drogan. I don't understand how he got so overpowered though? Does his fire have no limits? He just keep blowing and blowing and blowing...it would have been more realistic to make him need to rest or at least "recharge" to add a little tension.

Jaime was treated like crap. The dude deserved to go out swinging, but really after the writers had him go back to Cersei after...SHE HIRED A MERCENARY TO KILL HIM, I forced myself to distance myself from one of my favorite characters.

Same with Cersei. What a totally anti-climactic way for her to go out. Yes, it was pitiful, and maybe the point was to humble her by making her go out with a whimper instead of a bang, but still after 8 seasons with her as the most consistent big bad, it was very disappointing for me.

Yeah, Drogan and his unlimited firebreath....not buying it.

Bran said that Jamie still had a part to play. That wasn't much of a part.

I liked the Cersei death scene. Not every character can get their glorious moment of revenge and not ever villain gets their comeuppance.

[Kris]

MVP: Drogan. I don't understand how he got so overpowered though? Does his fire have no limits? He just keep blowing and blowing and blowing...it would have been more realistic to make him need to rest or at least "recharge" to add a little tension.

Jaime was treated like crap. The dude deserved to go out swinging, but really after the writers had him go back to Cersei after...SHE HIRED A MERCENARY TO KILL HIM, I forced myself to distance myself from one of my favorite characters.

Same with Cersei. What a totally anti-climactic way for her to go out. Yes, it was pitiful, and maybe the point was to humble her by making her go out with a whimper instead of a bang, but still after 8 seasons with her as the most consistent big bad, it was very disappointing for me.

Yeah, Drogan and his unlimited firebreath....not buying it.

Bran said that Jamie still had a part to play. That wasn't much of a part.

I liked the Cersei death scene. Not every character can get their glorious moment of revenge and not ever villain gets their comeuppance.

I'm so irritated by all the loose ends/red herrings that are apparently never going to get cleaned up. All the character arcs that promise things that just... don't go anywhere.

All the time we spent following Bran... for what? Meh.

All the times people referred to Jon Snow as having died and brought back to life, for what? Meh.

Just meh.

[Kris]

Also:

The first thing I said to Mr. Kris when the credits started rolling after last night's episode was:

"Well, I bet all those people who named their kids Khaleesi are regretting that decision right about now."

[ixtap]

Are we assuming that dragon's breathe cannot melt iron?

[Gondolin]

Two seasons (one for the Night King, one for the war for the Iron Throne) or even one longer one would have let them play out those plotlines in enough detail to have them make sense.

Never forget that HBO offered the showrunners more time and money to do exactly this and they refused, confident that they could come to a satisfying conclusion in just 13 episodes.

What we got was...this. One of the most textbook cases of climax driven forced plotting in recent memory. This is on par with a Transformers movie.

You can do things 'discovery' style where fully developed being allowed to exist and act according to their own logic. Often this method sacrifices a coherent climax (points about GRRM losing the thread in book 5 is an example of this problem).

You can do things 'outline' style where character motivations and action are restrained so that everyone can be maneuvered into position for a wham-bam climax.

Both methods work. Both create great stories. One is not inherently better than the other.

What you CAN NOT do is start with the former and then switch to the latter 75% of the way through. That's what was done on GoT. It's buckwild that anyone thought it would work.

[wenchsenior]

6/10, and that's mostly just because the brutality of the scenes made me cringe a few times, which means they accomplished something. There was also some really gorgeous scenes with the falling ash. Winter is coming = ash, not snow? Arya was framed in some very powerful visuals.

MVP: Drogan. I don't understand how he got so overpowered though? Does his fire have no limits? He just keep blowing and blowing and blowing...it would have been more realistic to make him need to rest or at least "recharge" to add a little tension.

Jaime was treated like crap. The dude deserved to go out swinging, but really after the writers had him go back to Cersei after...SHE HIRED A MERCENARY TO KILL HIM, I forced myself to distance myself from one of my favorite characters.

Same with Cersei. What a totally anti-climactic way for her to go out. Yes, it was pitiful, and maybe the point was to humble her by making her go out with a whimper instead of a bang, but still after 8 seasons with her as the most consistent big bad, it was very disappointing for me.

I guess I'm not too surprised by Dany though. She has lost everything, and has been outsmarted at every turn, due to her own stupidity or the stupidity of her advisers. She saw she had the clear advantage and she made sure there was no way she was being deceived this time. It doesn't justify it, but she was tired of getting jerked around.

I guess I have no idea how the story is going to wrap up with the Starks winning? (so maybe they won't!) Even the Northern armies were caught up in the brutality and Jon couldn't stop them. It seems they responded favorably to Dany's no-mercy approach, and so how does Jon pull them away from the Dothraki and Unsullied in a single episode? Not to mention, what happens to Drogan if Dany dies? If he goes nuts, no one can stop him. Is that possibly more dangerous than Dany guiding him?

I saw on some Reddit thread that Cercei's death fulfilled the prophecy told by the seer when she was a teenager. I can't remember the prophecy, but if so, that's kind of cool. 

I was a little surprised that Cersei wasn't lying about being pregnant with Jamie's kid, after all. 

I always expected Jamie to kill Cersei at the end, and their deaths were a little anticlimactic. It would have been much better if Jamie had somehow succeeded in being the one to get the city bells to ring (I feel like there might have been a cut scene?).  But Jamie was always going to die, from the second he pushed Bran out the window.  And though he got a lot of growth over the series and a lot of opportunity to do some good, (thematically speaking) he was always going to suffer and be humbled in the end for his crime(s) and for generally being somewhat sociopathic, and certainly he was always going to die for/with/because of Cersei, so I'm ok with it. I do think the fight with Euron was sort of pointless, b/c Euron was never a character, just a plot device so that Cersei could have some deluded hope of winning a war.

Re: Drogon...I also started wondering last night about how to control him without Dany. It never occurred to me to wonder before, but it should have.

Re: Dany...this type of ending for her has been foreshadowed through the books and show many times (though not a foregone conclusion, obviously), but it would have been nice to have an additional episode of her unraveling mentally to really sell it.  Clarke has been terrific selling it, given what little time she had. 

I also appreciated the sick cleverness of the show in giving me tons of something my inner tween girl LOVES to cheer for (woman riding flaming dragon that is destroying shit) and turned it from something triumphant into something terrible and depressing.

Other thoughts: Poor Tyrion, Jon, and Davos.  Constantly trying to do good/make the moral best out of situations constantly turning to shit around them or biting them in the ass.  I do think it's possible that Tyrion might kill Dany, but it's more likely Arya or Jon has to do it.  DH thinks the show will end with Jon (miserably) on the Iron Throne with Davos or Tyrion as Hand, or with Tyrion serving as Sansa's 'advisor/hand' up north, with the implication that  those two rulers will eventually be at each other's throats, b/c that's how these things roll and GRRM's view of humanity is dire (much like mine LOL).

Great scene between Tyrion and Jamie.  That made me sniffle.

There's some rumors going around that Martin will announce a hard publication date for the 6th book soon after the end of the show.  I am skeptical, but I think this would be a great marketing ploy, b/c the interest in the series is likely to drop sharply unless he strikes while the iron's hot. And I could see if (hypothetically) the book was finished, sitting on it until the show was over. That way if the show conclusion is adored (which it has not been), he can ride the wave. And if it isn't adored, people will desperately hope he can 'fix' whatever they are dissatisfied with.

[wenchsenior]

Also:

The first thing I said to Mr. Kris when the credits started rolling after last night's episode was:

"Well, I bet all those people who named their kids Khaleesi are regretting that decision right about now."

Ha!  I know, right? She's a great character, but how did people NOT see this character arc as a very feasible possibility?

[frugalnacho]

Also:

The first thing I said to Mr. Kris when the credits started rolling after last night's episode was:

"Well, I bet all those people who named their kids Khaleesi are regretting that decision right about now."

Ha!  I know, right? She's a great character, but how did people NOT see this character arc as a very feasible possibility?

The Dunning-Kruger effect.  The people that name their kid Khaleesi or Daenerys are probably not good at doing critical thinking in the first place, so of course they don't recognize how it could possibly back fire.

[simonsez]

I am so over the dragon lady.

And it's not just because she just killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Her whole thing with being upset with/about Jon's heritage being known - like, that's who he is! Deal with it!  She has felt so justified going back to Season 1 because of her claim to her family's throne but now all of a sudden can't take off the blinders (regardless if he wants crown or not).

If she's going to go full power crazy, only logical to kill Jon in last ep.  Perhaps it was inevitable for a show like this to wind down (or maybe not, as others have said - was 73 episodes the best choice after sitting at 60 and deciding to shut it down?) with wanton death and destruction, but schadenfreude is just not my thing.  I haven't enjoyed watching nearly as much compared to seasons past (S4 probably my fave).  I used to re-watch every episode on Monday evening but haven't done that yet for S8, just not a desire to sit there and be anxious for another 70+ minutes.  I do marvel at the production value, though.

[frugalnacho]

Dany: I'm the rightful ruler! Time to take the throne back from the usurpers and have me, Daenarys Targaryen, sit upon the iron throne as it is my birthright as a Targaryen! I'm the last Targaryen and the line of succession must be followed!
Jon: Ackshually my real name is Aegon Targaryen.
Dany: OMG please don't tell anyone because I still want to be Queen. K thx.

[Samuel]

At this point I'm basically measuring episodes on 1) quality of visual effects, and 2) number of clunky, groan inducing narrative shortcuts they wedge in. This episode ranks pretty high for season 8 as the effects were stellar and the only true clunker moment was when Euron washes up at exactly the right place and time to confront Jamie. For no reason at all. Whatever conflict those two had wasn't important enough to require this confrontation. Just BBQ Euron on his flagship and if Jamie needs to be mortally wounded by the time he finds Cersei then have him get injured while cutting his way through some Gold Cloaks or something... it's choices like this that make me suspect the writers were just 100% over this project and ready to move on.

I did like that Varys (a personal favorite) went out like a gangster. He saw what Daenerys was becoming and although he failed to convince Tyrion or Jon he still forfeited his life by acting to try and save the realm from her growing blood lust. He apparently spent his last few days trying to poison her while outing Jon to the remaining Lords and Ladies (at least I assume he sent some scrolls off, it looked like morning when he was writing the first one and nighttime when he was seized), then accepted his fate with dignity. It was as good a death as anyone has yet gotten on this show, and assuming he was able to get off some of those scrolls he's pushed the Jon/Daenerys show down (they can't co-exist after the scourging of King's Landing, can they?) to a whole new level.

[Wilson Hall]

Re: Drogon...I also started wondering last night about how to control him without Dany. It never occurred to me to wonder before, but it should have.

What about the scene a few episodes back in which Drogon was eyeballing Jon curiously if not downright lovingly? He can smell that Jon is a Targaryen. If Dany were to meet her demise, Jon would take responsibility for him.

I think there will either be a final, bloody confrontation between Dany's forces and what remains of the collective Stark/Baratheon/Lannister houses and their allies, or the latter group will be allowed to return to Winterfell to live out an uneasy peace--that is, as long as Jon has any remaining bargaining power with Dany.

I'm still wondering if either Dany or Arya is pregnant.

[StarBright]

I'm still wondering if either Dany or Arya is pregnant.

As much as I'm annoyed by some of the amazing women characters having sex shoehorned into their stories (Arya and Brienne), I do find it very interesting that the show has set up potential for an entire new ruling generation to be born.

Theoretically there is still Edmure's kid to inherit River Run, a potential Baratheon/Stark baby, a potential Lannister Baby, a potential Targaryen squared/Stark baby and I feel like the show is going to put Sansa and Tyrion together, so a Stark/Lannister for the North. I also feel like Robin Arryn has been so written out of the show that the Vale will put themselves in Sansa's hands a la Catherine the Great.

While I haven't enjoyed how the truncated season has made some character choices feel unearned, I would understand and appreciate if the show ended in a sort of uneasy truce (either breaking everyone back into kingdoms or with a Targaryen tenuously holding the throne) with a new generation learning old grudges and making new alliances before things fall apart again in 20 years.

[bacchi]

Who is the potential Lannister baby? Jamie/Brienne?

The Game is loosely based on the War of the Roses between the Yorks and the Lancasters.

- The main Lancaster branch became extinct during the War.
- Henry of Tudor married Elizabeth of York.
- The Tudors ruled peacefully for the next 120 years.

That sounds like a Gendry + Arya throne. Seems unlikely though.

Prediction: Dany tries to dracyrys on Jon but Drogan refuses.

Prediction: Jon will quit civilization and retreat to the north, past the wall. He's seen enough.

[frugalnacho]

Prediction: Dany tries to dracyrys on Jon but Drogan refuses.

Prediction: Jon will quit civilization and retreat to the north, past the wall. He's seen enough.

...They are going to go full Dexter on us. My prediction is that Jon Snow goes north of the wall to be a lumberjack and that's how it ends (not really, but I'm pretty sure that would be more satisfying that whatever garbage they cooked up)....

But seriously, no way Jon can just fuck off after this.  He's all about doing the right thing even if it's hard.  Dany is no longer his queen, and he can't stand by while she goes mad so he's probably going to kill her, and maybe begrudgingly sit on the iron throne himself even though he doesn't want it.  Or maybe my expectations will be subverted with more terrible writing that doesn't make any sense.

[Gondolin]

He's all about doing the right thing even if it's hard

You say that as if 'what the character would actually do' is still driving events. This last 2 seasons have been nothing but scripted movements to get characters in place for climatic moneyshots previously established personalities be damned.

[Wilson Hall]

Who is the potential Lannister baby? Jamie/Brienne?

That sounds like a Gendry + Arya throne. Seems unlikely though.

Prediction: Dany tries to dracyrys on Jon but Drogan refuses.

Prediction: Jon will quit civilization and retreat to the north, past the wall. He's seen enough.

Jamie/Brienne. There is also the (much less likely) chance that Sansa and Tyrion could reunite and produce an heir. They were married at one time, though she was physically repulsed by him, and he had too much decency to force himself on her. She's more mature now and could grow to care from him, if she can get past the pain his siblings inflicted upon her and her family.

Arya and Gendry won't happen, as he proposed to her a few episodes back and she turned him down. I'd say the odds are 50/50 that she's carrying their child.

bacchi, I like your prediction about Dany, Drogon, and Jon: that would be quite a moment!

I doubt Jon will stay in King's Landing, which is now in ruins. If he survives, he'll return to Winterfell to support Sansa in her reign there, or move on even further north, as you suggest.

[FIRE_Buckeye]

But seriously, no way Jon can just fuck off after this.  He's all about doing the right thing even if it's hard.  Dany is no longer his queen, and he can't stand by while she goes mad so he's probably going to kill her, and maybe begrudgingly sit on the iron throne himself even though he doesn't want it.  Or maybe my expectations will be subverted with more terrible writing that doesn't make any sense.

Easy to see how this eventuality comes to pass IMO.
Jon kills Dany, submits himself to whoever or whatever ends up ruling Westeros, and is given the same decision Ned was initially given; death or taking the Black.

[frugalnacho]

He's all about doing the right thing even if it's hard

You say that as if 'what the character would actually do' is still driving events. This last 2 seasons have been nothing but scripted movements to get characters in place for climatic moneyshots previously established personalities be damned.

Yes, which is why I followed up immediately that my expectations may be subverted by nonsensical writing.  That's what the character should do, but apparently anything goes this season with no rhyme or reason to anything.  It's basically whose line is it anyways where the motives are made up and logic doesn't matter.

Also nobody should be "taking the black".  The nights watch should no longer be a thing.   The NK and WW are no longer a threat.  The wall no longer exists anyway, a large portion was destroyed by a dragon.  But again, nothing needs to make sense anymore. 

[BicycleB]

Somewhere I read that GRRM's original motivation was in part to illustrate something along the lines of what-is-war-good-for-absolutely-nothing. Maybe the writing here isn't crafted the way he would have done it, but it sort of conveys the point anyway.

In particular, the pattern where people feel they're justified but even the good guys end up doing bad things - that's a clear conclusion from what we saw. I agree Dany's arc along this path felt rushed, undeveloped in storytelling terms. Yet the more I think about it, she's being shown as a high handed leader who thinks internally but personally, with a thin line between the high minded vs the overly personalized. This could happen in real life...in fact, I think it does!

Wormsey's choice to pick up the spear against the troops that had surrendered was disappointing in the extreme. Again, it's an understandable personal choice even though I hugely oppose it. Again, someone who felt like "the good guy" has turned sour, so that we should no longer root for him. If we wanted Good Guys vs Bad Guys, we are lost.

After all that, Jon's situation of going all too quickly from "a few misgivings" to "conflicted loyalties, but we're still mostly the good guys" to "oh shit, we're f-ing up hugely and yet my best option is to join the war crimes and start running people through with my sword" became horrifyingly realistic IMHO. I feel my own country's people have done this several times during my own life, and I can think of at least one other country in the last century that probably had many citizens with reason to feel the same. Sorry to take an epic fantasy series and get serious with it, but this is what I feel after watching episode 5.

If the unpleasant feelings from the last couple of episodes ever bleed over into real life in the sense of making someone or some country choose not to go to war, it would be well worth the initial disappointment in the show.

[Gondolin]

Yes, which is why

I was bitterly agreeing with you.

If the leaks I read this morning for ep6 are accurate (and it looks like they were for ep1-5), we are in for some epic nonsense in the finale.

[driftwood]

After all that, Jon's situation of going all too quickly from "a few misgivings" to "conflicted loyalties, but we're still mostly the good guys" to "oh shit, we're f-ing up hugely and yet my best option is to join the war crimes and start running people through with my sword" became horrifyingly realistic IMHO.

I think they did a decent job of making Jon's violence from that point forward justified... Besides the overall shock and regret he was showing, he looked like he was regretfully killing only those who attacked him. Not sure though, it was a wild scene and I have a human memory. Gray Worm's actions pushed the Army into killing the surrendered, but it looked like Jon would only kill the soldiers that were trying to kill him after that point. And the rapist, so good job there.

They way this is going down is pretty rushed and poorly written, but I'm still interested to see if we get some sort of a 'happy ending' for this world, or if it's all death and misery. I kinda like the shock factor we'd all experience if it turns out terribly for everyone. Bronn on the wreckage of the Iron Throne?

[wenchsenior]

I wonder if Bran could warg into Drogon, and kill Dany that way?

[Lulee]

bacchi, I like your prediction about Dany, Drogon, and Jon: that would be quite a moment!

I can see Dany doing this if confronted in public with Jon being the rightful heir to the throne.  Of course, all it would do is prove that Jon is a Targareon as he would also be fireproof, just like her.  Then what could she do?

[Kris]

I wonder if Bran could warg into Drogon, and kill Dany that way?

I've lost the belief he's going to do anything like that. He's been useless as tits on a boar for a while now. His warging has been so vastly underused lately at times it should have been obvious to use it --a lot like Arya's faces -- that those powers may as well not even exist anymore.

[doggyfizzle]

I wonder now with Cersei dead if there will be any resolution to all the money she borrowed from the Iron Bank?  Maybe one of the scrolls that Varys sent off will make it there?  I mean she must have used a ton of the Bank's money to fund the Golden Company right?  But since that plot line has basically just been ignored, my guess for the last episode is this:

1) Dany goes back to Mereen where people actually like her
2) Tyrion becomes the Imp King of King's Landing
3) Bronn is head of the Kingsguard
4) Arya goes back to Bravos (my prediction about her killing Cersei with Jamie's face not coming true really bums me out)
5) Sansa heads back to Winterfell, maybe shacking up with Robin Arryn
6) Davos goes to live at Dragonstone
7) Jon heads north to go live with the Wildlings
8) Bran gets himself planted in the Godswood in Winterfell
9) Yara becomes Queen of the Iron Born and conquers Casterly Rock, since the Lannisters have effectively been wiped out

[Kris]

I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

[wenchsenior]

I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

Pretty much.  It's much easier to build satisfying characters in the 'building the world out' part of story telling, b/c your plot is still flexible and your cast and world aren't as big.  But after thousands of pages and tons of additional characters and events, you then face the challenge of making all those parts work for plot purposes, so the actual story can make sense. And that means 'building back down/in' to a degree. By definition, as you write toward a conclusion of plot, the options of action and decision for each character become limited by plot logistics in a way that can really clash with their previous character development.

It is really obvious that with Jamie, for example, his main character arc (of some self actualization and identity separation from Cersei) came into conflict with the thematic and plot needs of the story. Jamie was a villain (later an anti-hero) in the series, who was always going to die.  He HAD to. And he had to die in association with Cersei (somehow).  But Martin developed his character in such a way that we could root for him to do heroic things, and sometimes he DID heroic things, and it makes sense he should die doing something at least sort of self-sacrificial. So he left Cersei to go fight in the north, which makes sense for plot and character.  To be consistent with his character arc, he should have died there after bonding in some way with Brienne (not necessarily sleeping with her). Thematically, perhaps he should have died defending Bran. But b/c thematically he has to be 'punished' and plot-wise he has to die in association with Cersei, he then had to travel BACK to her, which was awkward to plot.  And once he got there, the show runners couldn't think of anything for him to do except die with her (I think they should have had him mercy-kill her), AND they had a secondary antagonist hanging around that needed some kind of 'closure', so they made the two of them fight for no particular reason.

I'm pretty sure this is the problem Martin faces writing the books as well, which is why I am doubtful he'll finish them. And even if he does, he's unlikely to be able to fix the things that are irritating the show viewers.  In a way, Martin's skill at characterization and character-building have bitten him in the ass and have overwhelmed his ability to force the characters to do what the plot probably requires.  I'm glad I'm not a writer.

[Kris]

I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

Pretty much.  It's much easier to build satisfying characters in the 'building the world out' part of story telling, b/c your plot is still flexible and your cast and world aren't as big.  But after thousands of pages and tons of additional characters and events, you then face the challenge of making all those parts work for plot purposes, so the actual story can make sense. And that means 'building back down/in' to a degree. By definition, as you write toward a conclusion of plot, the options of action and decision for each character become limited by plot logistics in a way that can really clash with their previous character development.

It is really obvious that with Jamie, for example, his main character arc (of some self actualization and identity separation from Cersei) came into conflict with the thematic and plot needs of the story. Jamie was a villain (later an anti-hero) in the series, who was always going to die.  He HAD to. And he had to die in association with Cersei (somehow).  But Martin developed his character in such a way that we could root for him to do heroic things, and sometimes he DID heroic things, and it makes sense he should die doing something at least sort of self-sacrificial. So he left Cersei to go fight in the north, which makes sense for plot and character.  To be consistent with his character arc, he should have died there after bonding in some way with Brienne (not necessarily sleeping with her). Thematically, perhaps he should have died defending Bran. But b/c thematically he has to be 'punished' and plot-wise he has to die in association with Cersei, he then had to travel BACK to her, which was awkward to plot.  And once he got there, the show runners couldn't think of anything for him to do except die with her (I think they should have had him mercy-kill her), AND they had a secondary antagonist hanging around that needed some kind of 'closure', so they made the two of them fight for no particular reason.

I'm pretty sure this is the problem Martin faces writing the books as well, which is why I am doubtful he'll finish them. And even if he does, he's unlikely to be able to fix the things that are irritating the show viewers.  In a way, Martin's skill at characterization and character-building have bitten him in the ass and have overwhelmed his ability to force the characters to do what the plot probably requires.  I'm glad I'm not a writer.

Agreed. I, too, do not think he will finish them.

And also, can I just say how irritating I find the end of the Jamie/Brienne arc? I mean, I'm okay that they slept together. But what I HATE is the implication (or at least the conclusion everyone seems to have come to) that Brienne is in love with him? Why does her character have to eventually be reduced to a lovesick, rejected lonelyheart? There were ways to play that which would have her extremely distraught because she knows he's riding to his death, that don't reduce her to a sad girl who thought the guy who danced with her at homecoming was asking her to go steady. UGH.

[wenchsenior]

I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

Pretty much.  It's much easier to build satisfying characters in the 'building the world out' part of story telling, b/c your plot is still flexible and your cast and world aren't as big.  But after thousands of pages and tons of additional characters and events, you then face the challenge of making all those parts work for plot purposes, so the actual story can make sense. And that means 'building back down/in' to a degree. By definition, as you write toward a conclusion of plot, the options of action and decision for each character become limited by plot logistics in a way that can really clash with their previous character development.

It is really obvious that with Jamie, for example, his main character arc (of some self actualization and identity separation from Cersei) came into conflict with the thematic and plot needs of the story. Jamie was a villain (later an anti-hero) in the series, who was always going to die.  He HAD to. And he had to die in association with Cersei (somehow).  But Martin developed his character in such a way that we could root for him to do heroic things, and sometimes he DID heroic things, and it makes sense he should die doing something at least sort of self-sacrificial. So he left Cersei to go fight in the north, which makes sense for plot and character.  To be consistent with his character arc, he should have died there after bonding in some way with Brienne (not necessarily sleeping with her). Thematically, perhaps he should have died defending Bran. But b/c thematically he has to be 'punished' and plot-wise he has to die in association with Cersei, he then had to travel BACK to her, which was awkward to plot.  And once he got there, the show runners couldn't think of anything for him to do except die with her (I think they should have had him mercy-kill her), AND they had a secondary antagonist hanging around that needed some kind of 'closure', so they made the two of them fight for no particular reason.

I'm pretty sure this is the problem Martin faces writing the books as well, which is why I am doubtful he'll finish them. And even if he does, he's unlikely to be able to fix the things that are irritating the show viewers.  In a way, Martin's skill at characterization and character-building have bitten him in the ass and have overwhelmed his ability to force the characters to do what the plot probably requires.  I'm glad I'm not a writer.

Agreed. I, too, do not think he will finish them.

And also, can I just say how irritating I find the end of the Jamie/Brienne arc? I mean, I'm okay that they slept together. But what I HATE is the implication (or at least the conclusion everyone seems to have come to) that Brienne is in love with him? Why does her character have to eventually be reduced to a lovesick, rejected lonelyheart? There were ways to play that which would have her extremely distraught because she knows he's riding to his death, that don't reduce her to a sad girl who thought the guy who danced with her at homecoming was asking her to go steady. UGH.

I might be mis-remembering, but I think she was in love with him in the books but never anticipated any reciprocation (like her love for Renly Baratheon).  But  I agree that tonally, their 'ship culmination was a little off.  I loved the knighting/fighting for the north part.  And I'd be ok with them sleeping together, I guess.  One thing that I expected them to touch on...in the books, I believe, Jamie has never slept with anyone but Cersei, and highlighting that would have made that scene work better. But then her breakdown when he left I found touching, but a little out of character. Also, it leaves her emotionally jilted before he goes off to die, which sucks, I totally agree. 

[StarBright]

Who is the potential Lannister baby? Jamie/Brienne?

The Game is loosely based on the War of the Roses between the Yorks and the Lancasters.

- The main Lancaster branch became extinct during the War.
- Henry of Tudor married Elizabeth of York.
- The Tudors ruled peacefully for the next 120 years.

That sounds like a Gendry + Arya throne. Seems unlikely though.

Interesting! I'd read that it was based on War of the Roses but honestly thought more  of Tyrion and Sansa in the Henry VII and Elizabeth of York roles (but maybe that was because they were already dynastically married a few seasons ago). Arya and Gendry does make more sense on a 1-1 comparison, but doesn't quite feel right to me.

I did mean Jaime/Brienne - especially now because didn't Bran tell Jaime that he was needed at Winterfell (which was why Bran didn't out him as the pusher)? Jaime didn't really do all that much except sleep with Brienne while he was there (I mean, he obviously fought, but didn't turn the tide of battle or anything). Of course, at this point, that could have also just been awful writing.

[Zola.]

HBO offered the directors more money and time to finish it off properly, but they were not interested in doing more than this season. Burnt out maybe. 

It's all on the finale now, they have a big mess to clear up. I hope they don't just do another long battle and spend more attention on dealing with Dany quickly and then do some satisfying wrapping up character loose ends. We don't need more battles, really..

Highly unlikely though. A show as detailed like this can never please everyone, everyone has their own ideas of how it should go down, but you have no say.  I have still enjoyed it a lot, but last night was a bit disappointing in just how destructive it became for the civilians etc. Maybe GRRM's point was to show war is just bad business for all. 

Roll on the finale.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

Again, I think the plot lines are fine, but everything just feels so...rushed. Everyone has already covered it here, but Dany's turn to Mad Queen is the perfect example -- I thoroughly enjoyed that twist in the tale (you know what I mean), but it could have been laid so much better.

My dream scenario would have been:

Season 7 -- culminates in the Loot Train Battle (battle could have been around episode 8, then fallout of Lannisters realizing the dragons are real, what they will do, etc. after)
Season 8 -- culminates in the beyond the wall stuff (would have given time for all the movement...imagine Dany going to rescue them after that culminated over multiple episodes)
Season 9 -- culminates in the Battle of Winterfell (more politics have rallying the North, Cersei's motivations, more of these people not trusting Dany)
Season 10 -- culminates in Dany's sack of King's Landing and the fallout (could have really tied up Dany's motivations for her turn).

I think this would have made for excellent TV, and would have allowed the show to be more thorough with the character's motives.

[Noodle]

I just read this Twitter thread, which as a writer makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. I thought you all might enjoy reading it. (Warning: it’s long. But good.)

https://cheezburger.com/8363269/man-gives-insightful-reasoning-why-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-feels-different-without-spoilers

Interesting! I think there might be something to that. I think one of the frustrations for me has been that there were earlier seasons that dragged (Season 2, specifically...the only major character death was Renly Baratheon and it was a lot of wandering around and table-setting) and now we are rushing through a lot of good stuff. But I try to remember that HBO at that point probably thought they were going to get more story out of GRRM so they couldn't plan out the series as a whole.

I wonder if Jon Snow actually ends up destroying the Iron Throne and nobody rules Westeros as a whole. I mean, I don't see any reason there HAS to be a King of Westeros...we've seen plenty of smaller city-states that seem to be perfectly happy and prosperous. Obviously power abhors a vacuum, but at this point it seems like most of the possible contenders outside of our two Targaryens have been wiped out given the decimation of all the big families. I'm sure there are a lot of openings for the Ser Bronns of the world to swoop in and grab territory, or maybe subsidiary branches of the big families, but it would take awhile for those contenders to consolidate power. Apparently there are some spin-offs in development at HBO--it would be interesting if there was a series a generation in the future (so as to start with a new set of characters) about what happens next.

My other question, which maybe book people can answer, is how does the Winter affect Westeros as a whole? Clearly the North is deeply impacted and needs to plan for it, but are the areas further south affected? Nobody seems to be talking about it at the moment other than Sansa.

[Philociraptor]

My other question, which maybe book people can answer, is how does the Winter affect Westeros as a whole? Clearly the North is deeply impacted and needs to plan for it, but are the areas further south affected? Nobody seems to be talking about it at the moment other than Sansa.

It gets colder. Snow falls as far south as King's Landing, winter officially starts in the epilogue of book 5.

[Nick_Miller]

Wasn't it snowing when Jaime left Kings Landing at end of Season 7? I'm pretty sure it was.

And at this point, I don't see how Dany can be unseated. It would be stupid. She has armies loyal to her, and her only, and she has a dragon that wrecked the biggest/best fighting force left on the entire continent. Even if (and especially if!) she is killed, all Hell should break lose! How do you end a series with all Hell breaking lose? (maybe you can?)

I mean, the Dothraki and UnSullied have nowhere to go, they can't get home. What are they going to do if Dany dies, just peacefully and seamlessly blend in with the Westeros population? All they know is war and killing. If Dany dies, they kill everyone (who is left).

And I've read some theories that Drogan might "defect" to Jon, but...where was the evidence of this in Episode 5? Drogan didn't exactly show any hesitation about roasting children. Why would he "gain a conscience" and flip sides all of a sudden?

[Kris]

Wasn't it snowing when Jaime left Kings Landing at end of Season 7? I'm pretty sure it was.

And at this point, I don't see how Dany can be unseated. It would be stupid. She has armies loyal to her, and her only, and she has a dragon that wrecked the biggest/best fighting force left on the entire continent. Even if (and especially if!) she is killed, all Hell should break lose! How do you end a series with all Hell breaking lose? (maybe you can?)

I mean, the Dothraki and UnSullied have nowhere to go, they can't get home. What are they going to do if Dany dies, just peacefully and seamlessly blend in with the Westeros population? All they know is war and killing. If Dany dies, they kill everyone (who is left).

And I've read some theories that Drogan might "defect" to Jon, but...where was the evidence of this in Episode 5? Drogan didn't exactly show any hesitation about roasting children. Why would he "gain a conscience" and flip sides all of a sudden?

I agree with all of this.

And yet... I'm afraid that the writers will do it anyway.

By "afraid," I mean that Nick is right -- the consequence of deposing her or or killing her (and let's face it, she'd have to be killed) are basically what he outlines above. But Dany does need to be removed. My worry is that the show will do that... and then kind of just pretend it's gonna be okay?

If they did kill her and have fucking mayhem ensue... very logical, but a hell of an unsatisfying end to the series.

I just don't know. This show, man...

[runbikerun]

Wasn't it snowing when Jaime left Kings Landing at end of Season 7? I'm pretty sure it was.

And at this point, I don't see how Dany can be unseated. It would be stupid. She has armies loyal to her, and her only, and she has a dragon that wrecked the biggest/best fighting force left on the entire continent. Even if (and especially if!) she is killed, all Hell should break lose! How do you end a series with all Hell breaking lose? (maybe you can?)

I mean, the Dothraki and UnSullied have nowhere to go, they can't get home. What are they going to do if Dany dies, just peacefully and seamlessly blend in with the Westeros population? All they know is war and killing. If Dany dies, they kill everyone (who is left).

And I've read some theories that Drogan might "defect" to Jon, but...where was the evidence of this in Episode 5? Drogan didn't exactly show any hesitation about roasting children. Why would he "gain a conscience" and flip sides all of a sudden?

I think it's that personalised loyalty that dooms her. Nobody is loyal to her *as the rightful queen of Westeros*, with the possible exception of Jon Snow. The Unsullied are loyal to the Breaker of Chains; the Dothraki are loyal to their Khaleesi; the North is loyal to who their king says they should be loyal to. If you can kill her, or get someone else to kill her, then you don't have to deal with any kind of existing power structure: you can stake your claim in a landscape devoid of anyone who can impose an existing model. This isn't like regicide in an established monarchy where all you do is speed up the transfer to the next in line to the throne: kill Dany and all seven kingdoms can assert their own independence, and the Unsullied and Dothraki won't particularly care. There are dozens of people who could profit from her death and become kings and queens in their own rights.

[StarBright]

While I'm disappointed with the flow of the show in season 8, the only thing that would really kill me is it if all ends up hinging on Bran (either as King or something mystical).

. . .
I just don't know. This show, man...

^ yep.

[itchyfeet]

I agree with the comment above

Nuclear weapons - Dany only
Strongest army - Dany (unsullied plus the returned from the dead Dothraki)

Unless Dany has some massive self reflective moment and then takes her own life, or peacefully steps aside (not consistent with character) I don’t see how she is removed.

Even if Jon amassed all of Westeros to support his claim he’d have to kill every unsullied and Dothraki as there are no fleets left to ship them off shore. Jon isn’t going to kill the entire armies that were the shield of man only 2 episodes ago.

But with the Iron throne destroyed Dany has no throne to take. She gave Stormsend away already and I don’t think she’d seek to take it back.

I am left with a Dany commits suicide, or Dany decides Westeros is not for her and flies back to Essos with the Dothraki and Unsullied heading back in their own time.

With no Kings Landing, I’d say that Westeros is ruled from Winterfell by Jon and Sansa as brother and sister, not married, no incest.

I am curious to see what happens today Arya.

Over a number of episodes Arya slowly evolved from a revengeful killer to realising there was better ways to spend ones life, but after all the death she saw in Kings Landing, I wonder whether she decides to resume serving the many faced god...maybe sneakily kill Dany and then take her face for a while to ensure peace, and then tell the unsullied they are no longer needed...... either that or she will go to Gendry at Strorms End and pursue a new course of life.

Tyrion will finally realise he is shit at being a Hand and return to brothels with Bron.

A further thought...If Arya fakes being Dany, Drogon will know the difference so she would need to kill Dany in collaboration with Jon, so Jon can kill Drogon.

[runbikerun]

Dany has nothing to fear from any army, but everything to fear from an assassination. Whatever your cause - Dornish independence, Northern independence, a splitting of the Seven Kingdoms, or simply grabbing a castle for yourself and worrying about legitimating your claim later - it's now a single heartbeat away. Unlike under almost every previous holder of the Iron Throne, there's no succession plan and no power structure in place. Kill Dany and you can reach for whatever revolution you want.

[simonsez]

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced either Jon or Dany have to go next episode (at the hands of one another) for some resolution.  If Dany kills Jon and his better claim, what's one more person added to the six-figure killed list and who could really cry foul at that point?  If that happens I could see Tyrion going as well for releasing Jamie.  If Jon kills Dany*, there could be further potential drama with Dothraki (but I doubt it since they respect whoever kills and has power not to mention I couldn't name you one Dothraki character right now) and Unsullied but not as it pertains to the throne, which would I think be fairly drama-less and either be Jon himself, Gendry, Sansa (though she seems staunchly North-only at this point still with the Vale in her pocket), or maybe a wildcard like Bran since I was surprised he wasn't eliminated in dramatic fashion a few eps ago - seems odd to keep him around story-wise as a rolling wikipedia only.  Eliminate Jon from that list if you want if Grey Worm takes him out but I couldn't see more mayhem beyond that.  Maybe there is no single ruler at all and it goes to oligarchy.  Throw Brienne in the Kings/Queensguard, make Sam an important maester, keep Davos around for advice, and move on.  Uncertain about Drogon, maybe he just scoffs at the silly humans and moves to Valyria.

* Tyrion's fate is much more up in the air in this scenario as the timing matters of when she would die - as whoever rules at end if not Dany wouldn't have a reason to kill him but he could still die if she doesn't die until later in the episode.

Not sure about Arya - was that an "ashen" horse of the Apocalypse that she rode out on?