Author Topic: Game of Thrones is back!!  (Read 12137 times)

Telecaster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #250 on: May 21, 2019, 02:12:34 PM »
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Among other stuff, I was disappointed in the battle scenes.  IMO, the Battle at Castle Black is the greatest battle scene ever filmed.  The Battles of Winterfell and King's Landing weren't.   

Travis

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #251 on: May 21, 2019, 02:34:43 PM »
In no particular order:

1. Agree with the sentiments that the last two seasons were a race to the finish rather than telling a story anymore.  I don't mind the ending, but the lack of development was crap and so many characters were just shipped off just to get them out of the way. Dany becoming a psychopath and burning the city is within her character, but only with proper motivation.  She resorted to fire and dragons when frustrated. There was no reason in KL.  Her feeling vindicated, invincible, and a crusader to free[conquer] the world also fits into her character, but not an hour after taking the city.
2. Is Drogon taking Dany's body to Valyria or Dragon's Bay? Is he smart enough to dig a hole, give her a Viking funeral, or dump her body on Daario's doorstep?
3. Apparently Drogon is smart enough to sense when Dany's dying, have enough reasoning to not eat Jon right on the spot, and lash out at the Iron Throne for causing her downfall.  Makes you wonder if he was having Tyrion/Varys-type thoughts at all the trouble they went through.
4. Jon was sentenced to rejoin the Nights Watch. Why? What's left to watch?  The Wildlings are now the good guys, there are no White Walkers, and there's a giant hole in the wall.  It looks like Jon just packed up and became King Beyond the Wall anyways.
5. Tyrion put his mark on far too many things for him to be ignored in an official history of the War of the Five Kings.  He's officially a Kingslayer/Kinslayer. That's worth a chapter or two.
6. In the spirit of rushing through the story, the new Small Council completely ignored that it'll take a generation just to clean up the mess of what is left of Kings Landing. There are no bulldozers in Westeros to scoop up the rubble and bodies of several hundred thousand people. And apparently winter isn't as bad as they thought. There was a couple days of snow in the south and plants are growing north of the wall.
7. Despite the losses the North took during these wars, they have enough troops to be a threat to the Unsullied and Dothraki?  And for that matter all the armies shrunk and grew as the story required.
8.  Westeros is truly run by a government bureaucracy. Tyrion proved to be good at domestic concerns, okay at political scheming, and an absolute disaster at foreign affairs. So we're going to promote him and let him keep doing it.
9.  I assume with Sansa secure in the North, she released Brienne from her vow to decide what to do with her life.
10. Regarding Bran's "I can't be a Lord, but apparently I can be King" statements, remember that he's pretty much a time traveler.  We can't take anything he says at face value since he's playing the long game.
11. Yara defending Dany? They made a deal to help each other, but it's not like Yara was devoted.  I don't see Yara being okay with Dany burning half a million people.
12.  How is it Sam is the Maester of Kings Landing? That's a senior position in their hierarchy, and assuming the final scene is a few short months later he'd still barely be out of training.

talltexan

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #252 on: May 21, 2019, 02:35:00 PM »
Don't forget "Blackwater"

GuitarStv

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #253 on: May 21, 2019, 02:36:54 PM »
I had no idea until the week afterward how many people literally could not see it well enough to even know what characters they were watching, and thus couldn't even follow the action.

Makes you realize how few people understand what the basic brightness and contrast controls on their televisions do.  We were watching the episode and it was hard to see what was going on, so I paused it and fiddled with the controls for a second until it was perfectly watchable.  This isn't a new invention.  I remember having to do it in a particularly dark scene in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III.  :P

If everyone has to fiddle with the brightness and contrast to make it watchable, it is too dark.

It depends on whether or not you've ever set them to be ideal, and how much ambient lighting there is in the room you regularly watch in.

Telecaster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #254 on: May 21, 2019, 02:51:56 PM »
If everyone has to fiddle with the brightness and contrast to make it watchable, it is too dark.

It depends on whether or not you've ever set them to be ideal, and how much ambient lighting there is in the room you regularly watch in.

Understood.   However, in this case you had to stop the episode and fiddle with the settings to make it watchable.   Everyone else also seems to agree the episode was too dark.

I humbly submit that if everyone finds a particular episode too dark, it really is too dark.   Requiring viewers to adjust their TV's mid-episode is a clear production mistake.  People should be enjoying the show instead of thinking "The picture sucks.  How do I fix it?"

wenchsenior

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #255 on: May 21, 2019, 02:56:02 PM »
So for those of you that have hated this season...what specifically were you wanting to see/expecting to see? 

:not snark, truly curious:

Among other stuff, I was disappointed in the battle scenes.  IMO, the Battle at Castle Black is the greatest battle scene ever filmed.  The Battles of Winterfell and King's Landing weren't.

These responses are interesting. Just goes to show how we all watch for different stuff.


I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

I always wanted to see more of the Faceless Man (Hagar, I think his name was), but he'd obviously served his purpose plot-wise.

I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

I agree with several of you that the show built the White Walkers up enough that they should have gotten more screen time (perhaps a half dozen episodes rather than a couple), but I freely admit that I personally would have been dreading that b/c I found the White Walkers the most uninteresting part of the show (and the books..I usually just skimmed all the stuff related to them).  Don't care who/what the Night King was....'some magical evil dude' is good enough for me.  The less White Walkers, the better, as far as my viewing satisfaction.

Apart from just building in more episodes for the past 2 seasons, I'm trying to think what I really wanted to see and didn't...

I agree that it would have been nice to see Arya's direwolf specifically, and a bit more of the two direwolves in general (obs not crucial to the plot). 

I wish they'd given Circe something to do this past couple years b/c I always liked getting into her twisted POV. 

I would have had Bran warg into one of the dragons at some point; not sure how to work that into the plot. 

I would have handled Jamie's end a little differently, as I noted earlier.  Just cut the scene with Euron, have him sneak in and ring the bells in the city (heroic moment that nevertheless fails to affect the outcome), then go to Circe. I would have had some setup where he and Circe were about to be captured, and he mercy-kills her (actually I envisioned something kind of similar to the Jon/Dany scene), and then either is killed or is captured and executed.

I wouldn't have minded a little more of Dorne, but I also remember the bitching among the fanbase when the books began focusing on Dornish characters, so I kind of doubt that would have been popular with the viewers. 

I didn't give a shit about Cleganebowl (which I gather was one of the more popular things among fans this season) and would have preferred the Hound give up his vendetta and end up as an enforcer for Sansa (ANY additional interaction with Sansa would have been great), or off adventuring with Arya.

I'm sure I can think of a few other things.  But considering the ginormous cast/number of plot threads, I'm surprised how fine I am with how it all went down.  It's funny, b/c I love to mentally re-write my favorite stories.  I remember when Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended, I also liked the last season a lot more than many fans, BUT I also had a very detailed 'alternate version' of that season in my head that would have taken only a few tweaks to do and would have been SOOO much more satisfying in terms of character arcs and some of the themes that season was playing with.  I actually wrote it down at the time, and even looking at it a few years later, I remember how good an outline I still thought it was. I have it somewhere...I wonder what I'd think of it now, ~ 10 years on?

It just goes to show,  there really is no pleasing the whole audience, or probably even the majority of the audience, with a long-running complex story.  I admit I am much more curious to read Martin's version now than I have been in years.  Supposedly the show runners were working from his outline of how all the characters ended up. Given how pissed most people seem about Bran being king, I'm wondering if Martin would consider changing his original idea, pretending it was the show-runners', and ending the series differently from how he's been planning it all these decades LOL.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 03:02:17 PM by wenchsenior »

wenchsenior

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #256 on: May 21, 2019, 03:03:09 PM »
Don't forget "Blackwater"

Ok, I remember that one.  Tyrion's POV, right? That's probably why I remember.

Telecaster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #257 on: May 21, 2019, 03:04:03 PM »
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytellingóitís because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

That was quite excellent.  From the article:

Quote
Another example of sociological TV drama with a similarly enthusiastic fan following is David Simonís The Wire, which followed the trajectory of a variety of actors in Baltimore, ranging from African-Americans in the impoverished and neglected inner city trying to survive, to police officers to journalists to unionized dock workers to city officials and teachers.

"The Wire" is often cited as one of the best TV series ever--and I happen to love it--but I didn't realize the similarities with GoT.   In the Wire, it doesn't matter if you are good or bad, or a main character or not, things just happen to you.  Tiny, sometimes random events would have major consequences, just like in real life. 

talltexan

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #258 on: May 21, 2019, 03:12:51 PM »
Don't forget "Blackwater"

Ok, I remember that one.  Tyrion's POV, right? That's probably why I remember.

Davos, Stannis, Tyrion, Cersei and Sansa are all part of it. It changed my thinking about Stannis more than any other scene because he's basically kicking everyone's asses, but it's not enough to swing the battle.

Telecaster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #259 on: May 21, 2019, 03:37:27 PM »

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved. 

ncornilsen

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #260 on: May 21, 2019, 03:54:52 PM »

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

She should have borrowed enough for the elephants.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 03:56:45 PM by ncornilsen »

FIRE Artist

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #261 on: May 21, 2019, 05:15:35 PM »

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

She should have borrowed enough for the elephants.

Poor thing, went to her grave without ever getting to see an elephant!  If only they travelled better by sea.

Travis

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #262 on: May 21, 2019, 05:51:40 PM »

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

Jamie's capture of Highgarden netted enough gold for the Iron Bank to consider the old debt paid and to extend a brand new line of credit to Cersei to hire the Golden Company.  It probably wasn't as much as the crown's previous total debts, but armies aren't cheap.

Travis

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #263 on: May 21, 2019, 06:05:23 PM »

Given how pissed most people seem about Bran being king, I'm wondering if Martin would consider changing his original idea, pretending it was the show-runners', and ending the series differently from how he's been planning it all these decades LOL.

Generally, I'm not upset with Bran being king.  If he got a little more screen time it might make more sense to others.  The same goes for a lot of other character end states.

frugalnacho

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #264 on: May 21, 2019, 07:45:40 PM »
If everyone has to fiddle with the brightness and contrast to make it watchable, it is too dark.

It depends on whether or not you've ever set them to be ideal, and how much ambient lighting there is in the room you regularly watch in.

Understood.   However, in this case you had to stop the episode and fiddle with the settings to make it watchable.   Everyone else also seems to agree the episode was too dark.

I humbly submit that if everyone finds a particular episode too dark, it really is too dark.   Requiring viewers to adjust their TV's mid-episode is a clear production mistake.  People should be enjoying the show instead of thinking "The picture sucks.  How do I fix it?"

I have never adjusted the brightness on my tv for any tv show or movie ever.  That episode was too dark.

runbikerun

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #265 on: May 22, 2019, 01:28:29 AM »
I honestly would have loved more Iron Bank stuff, although I appreciate I'm very much in the minority on that. Braavos is centuries ahead of everywhere else in the world of GOT, and there's a heavy implication that nothing in Westeros or Essos really goes ahead without their involvement until dragons and white walkers start appearing.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #266 on: May 22, 2019, 04:40:19 AM »
Welp, HBO is cancelled! That's that!

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion here over the past six weeks. It's a shame that "shared cultural experiences" like GoT are pretty much dead thanks to streaming. Sure, we still have sports and politics, but those are so tribalized that everything devolves into fighting.

runbikerun

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #267 on: May 22, 2019, 05:47:48 AM »
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

Noodle

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #268 on: May 22, 2019, 06:07:49 AM »
After thinking about it for a couple days, I think that one big issue with the series was that it was never quite clear which story was the heart of the narrative and the destination of this whole journey. Was Game of Thrones a family drama about the Starks, and how they survived and found their way back to each other despite everything? Was it a hero's journey for a young woman who lost everything but used her suffering as fuel to understand and fight for the little people who had no one else? Was it an apocalyptic story about magic finding its way back into a world that had stopped believing in it, with the survival of humanity at stake? Was it  a twisty high-stakes political thriller about the contest for the Iron Throne and power in Westeros, with death to the losers? Was it a narrative about the disenfranchised (women, people of color, Wildlings, the physically disabled or different) finally winning power in a world previously controlled by smirky rich white guys? If you were in it for the Starks, the ending was probably satisfying, but if you thought you were there for one of those other stories, I can see how people might be pretty disappointed as the other narratives fell away. I'm sure part of it was that HBO was working with an unfinished narrative, and frankly probably one of the reasons that the series attracted so many viewers was that it offered such a big tent, but in the end they were never going to be able to end all those stories equally well.

Cromacster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #269 on: May 22, 2019, 07:19:52 AM »
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I've been trying to find a time to watch it.  The commercials were terrifying.

talltexan

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #270 on: May 22, 2019, 07:22:01 AM »
Considering how much the show focused on palace intrigue between Cersei and the Tyrells, you'd have to acknowledge that sub-plot, too. We should have known that Cersei was too flawed to prevail, but it's interesting that--in the process of beating her--Dany basically became her.

Psychstache

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #271 on: May 22, 2019, 07:27:00 AM »
After thinking about it for a couple days, I think that one big issue with the series was that it was never quite clear which story was the heart of the narrative and the destination of this whole journey. Was Game of Thrones a family drama about the Starks, and how they survived and found their way back to each other despite everything? Was it a hero's journey for a young woman who lost everything but used her suffering as fuel to understand and fight for the little people who had no one else? Was it an apocalyptic story about magic finding its way back into a world that had stopped believing in it, with the survival of humanity at stake? Was it  a twisty high-stakes political thriller about the contest for the Iron Throne and power in Westeros, with death to the losers? Was it a narrative about the disenfranchised (women, people of color, Wildlings, the physically disabled or different) finally winning power in a world previously controlled by smirky rich white guys? If you were in it for the Starks, the ending was probably satisfying, but if you thought you were there for one of those other stories, I can see how people might be pretty disappointed as the other narratives fell away. I'm sure part of it was that HBO was working with an unfinished narrative, and frankly probably one of the reasons that the series attracted so many viewers was that it offered such a big tent, but in the end they were never going to be able to end all those stories equally well.

See , to me that feels like a feature, not a bug. It goes back to the whole psychological vs. sociological storytelling from the article above.

I think the comparison to The Wire is apt, as it is that focus on the institutions, not individuals. Neither show is framed as being about this person, instead you are presented with the players that exist within competing institutions (in GoT, it is the Great Houses, in The Wire, it is the various city organizations) and how the people interact within those institutions.

runbikerun

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #272 on: May 22, 2019, 08:04:28 AM »
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I've been trying to find a time to watch it.  The commercials were terrifying.

It's nightmarish. Truly suffocating television, in the best possible way.

To bring it back to Game Of Thrones, it's akin to the deathly silence following the screams at the gate of Hardhome, except sustained for hours at a time. The sense of dread and horror is overwhelming.

ncornilsen

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #273 on: May 22, 2019, 08:28:09 AM »
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I've been trying to find a time to watch it.  The commercials were terrifying.

It's nightmarish. Truly suffocating television, in the best possible way.

To bring it back to Game Of Thrones, it's akin to the deathly silence following the screams at the gate of Hardhome, except sustained for hours at a time. The sense of dread and horror is overwhelming.

Anyone notice that Maester Llywen was the old-line communist party guy in the first episode of Chernobyl?

It also occurred that  the actor who played Circe, played Sarah Connor in a 2008 TV series. in 2015, Emilia Clarke played Sarah Connor in a movie.

talltexan

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #274 on: May 22, 2019, 08:46:22 AM »
No joke, Lena Headey has had a fabulous career even pre-thrones. 300, The Purge, she's been in some A-game stuff.

Diana Rigg is of course the grand dame among the cast. I'm so grateful for the chance to have seen her. And Alexander Siddig, of course (true Star Trek Fans would have recognized him as Siddig Al Fadil in DS9).

simonsez

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #275 on: May 22, 2019, 09:57:38 AM »
And Alexander Siddig, of course (true Star Trek Fans would have recognized him as Siddig Al Fadil in DS9).
He goes from genetically-modified superhuman to guy with gout in a wheelchair, quite the turn!  I wish his character would've gotten more traction on Peaky Blinders (suppose that is still possible but doubtful).  Aunt Pol was getting too dark for my taste and he was a good foil.

BicycleB

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #276 on: May 22, 2019, 10:22:02 AM »
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I just cancelled my "HBO Now". It replied that my service would end June 20; to continue past that, reactivate the AutoRenew feature. So at least one unsubscriber can watch Chernobyl for up four weeks.

Not saying I will, just sharing info re options. Saving Mustache money!   :)

DaMa

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #277 on: May 22, 2019, 01:25:19 PM »
Another recommend for Chernobyl.  It's amazingly good.

Travis

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #278 on: May 22, 2019, 01:25:57 PM »
After thinking about it for a couple days, I think that one big issue with the series was that it was never quite clear which story was the heart of the narrative and the destination of this whole journey. Was Game of Thrones a family drama about the Starks, and how they survived and found their way back to each other despite everything? Was it a hero's journey for a young woman who lost everything but used her suffering as fuel to understand and fight for the little people who had no one else? Was it an apocalyptic story about magic finding its way back into a world that had stopped believing in it, with the survival of humanity at stake? Was it  a twisty high-stakes political thriller about the contest for the Iron Throne and power in Westeros, with death to the losers? Was it a narrative about the disenfranchised (women, people of color, Wildlings, the physically disabled or different) finally winning power in a world previously controlled by smirky rich white guys? If you were in it for the Starks, the ending was probably satisfying, but if you thought you were there for one of those other stories, I can see how people might be pretty disappointed as the other narratives fell away. I'm sure part of it was that HBO was working with an unfinished narrative, and frankly probably one of the reasons that the series attracted so many viewers was that it offered such a big tent, but in the end they were never going to be able to end all those stories equally well.

See , to me that feels like a feature, not a bug. It goes back to the whole psychological vs. sociological storytelling from the article above.

I think the comparison to The Wire is apt, as it is that focus on the institutions, not individuals. Neither show is framed as being about this person, instead you are presented with the players that exist within competing institutions (in GoT, it is the Great Houses, in The Wire, it is the various city organizations) and how the people interact within those institutions.

Not knowing who the protagonist was supposed to be was by design.  The story is a deconstruction of the typical medieval fantasy.  There are noble knights, fair maidens, and underdogs just like any other fantasy story, but that doesn't make them the good guys or the winners by default.  The books constantly remind you that being honest and honorable can be a death sentence when you're surrounded by people who aren't.  Everyone has their flaws.  Even heroes on a roll can end up dead completely by accident or by making one critical mistake.  While this is has worked well so far for the books, the TV version can't devote the same amount of time following every character and plotline without focusing on a few keys players at some point.

partgypsy

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #279 on: May 22, 2019, 01:36:48 PM »

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

Jamie's capture of Highgarden netted enough gold for the Iron Bank to consider the old debt paid and to extend a brand new line of credit to Cersei to hire the Golden Company.  It probably wasn't as much as the crown's previous total debts, but armies aren't cheap.

This is the part I don't get. So they get highgarden, but the convoy of treasure going back to Kings landing to pay the bank, gets intercepted by Dany's army and massacred/melted. So they DIDN'T pay the bank back. Remember when they are waiting for the convoy to get there and it never did? Am I missing something? So how did she pay for these armies? More line of credit?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 01:40:10 PM by partgypsy »

Samuel

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #280 on: May 22, 2019, 02:33:47 PM »
Don't cancel HBO just yet, Chernobyl is still running for another two weeks!

Seriously - if you still have HBO, give it a go. It's damn close to flawless and supremely frightening - you will not see anything better this year.

I just cancelled my "HBO Now". It replied that my service would end June 20; to continue past that, reactivate the AutoRenew feature. So at least one unsubscriber can watch Chernobyl for up four weeks.

Not saying I will, just sharing info re options. Saving Mustache money!   :)

And if you need some comedy to cut the seriousness I was very pleasantly surprised by Barry. I'm trying to get through it before my HBO cancellation takes effect.

DaMa

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #281 on: May 22, 2019, 04:23:22 PM »

I don't even remember there being a Castle Black battle scene, which goes to show how little impression battle scenes make on me (unless that was the one where the ice dragon melted the wall? I just remember an attack and a wall-melt that was awesome, so my memory must have just skipped over the associated battle).

They do all sort of seem to blend together.  The Battle of Castle black is when the Wildlings, realizing the White Walkers are coming, attack in order to get south of the wall.  This is the battle where Ygritte dies in Jon's arms. 

Quote
I also don't remember a subplot involving the bank (which some posters have noted they wanted to see followed up), though I vaguely remember the bank being mentioned in the books occasionally. It's funny how I'm interested in banking/money stuff IRL, but apparently not in fiction at all.

Basically, the Lannisters ran out of money and had to borrow heavily from the Iron Bank in order to fund the on-going wars.  Cersie borrowed even more heavily in order to pay for the Golden Company.  It wasn't a major plot point, but it never got resolved.

Jamie's capture of Highgarden netted enough gold for the Iron Bank to consider the old debt paid and to extend a brand new line of credit to Cersei to hire the Golden Company.  It probably wasn't as much as the crown's previous total debts, but armies aren't cheap.

This is the part I don't get. So they get highgarden, but the convoy of treasure going back to Kings landing to pay the bank, gets intercepted by Dany's army and massacred/melted. So they DIDN'T pay the bank back. Remember when they are waiting for the convoy to get there and it never did? Am I missing something? So how did she pay for these armies? More line of credit?

The gold made it safely to King's Landing.  One of the characters specifically says that.  It was other loot, especially grain, that was destroyed by Dany.

Kris

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #282 on: May 22, 2019, 07:56:29 PM »
This is a great (and funny) encapsulation of why this season was so damn frustrating.

https://reddit.com/r/videos/comments/brulx2/game_of_thrones_season_8_pitch_meeting/

StarBright

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #283 on: May 22, 2019, 07:57:33 PM »

 . . . .   It's funny, b/c I love to mentally re-write my favorite stories.  I remember when Buffy the Vampire Slayer ended, I also liked the last season a lot more than many fans, BUT I also had a very detailed 'alternate version' of that season in my head that would have taken only a few tweaks to do and would have been SOOO much more satisfying in terms of character arcs and some of the themes that season was playing with.   . . ..

^ I always hold Buffy and Angel up as perfect endings. I tended to wonder if I just loved Whedon's shows, but then absolutely hated the Dollhouse finale (though I loved the rest of that show so hard).

Even though GOT ended in the only way I said I would hate, I didn't dislike it as much as a I thought I would. I think I can see how it was George R R Martin's original ending and I do think it makes sense. I think I would have been quite satisfied had it taken a few more episodes to get to it.

I do feel badly for some of the actors who were clearly playing their character in a certain direction and with certain choices because they didn't know the endgame. You can tell it really bothered a couple of them. Though I do find it sort of beautiful how they felt such a responsibility to give these character's fully fleshed and believable journeys.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 08:17:23 PM by StarBright »

Travis

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #284 on: May 22, 2019, 09:28:51 PM »
If the ending of Game of Thrones was a little more realistic...

https://www.facebook.com/dean.wallace/videos/10104641393062893/

Rimu05

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #285 on: May 24, 2019, 09:49:22 AM »
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytellingóitís because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

That was quite excellent.  From the article:

Quote
Another example of sociological TV drama with a similarly enthusiastic fan following is David Simonís The Wire, which followed the trajectory of a variety of actors in Baltimore, ranging from African-Americans in the impoverished and neglected inner city trying to survive, to police officers to journalists to unionized dock workers to city officials and teachers.

"The Wire" is often cited as one of the best TV series ever--and I happen to love it--but I didn't realize the similarities with GoT.   In the Wire, it doesn't matter if you are good or bad, or a main character or not, things just happen to you.  Tiny, sometimes random events would have major consequences, just like in real life.

I find The Wire to be very much more grounded than GOT is even from the books. When I finished The Wire I was depressed as f**k. I am just going to confess as much as I am in awe of GRRM and the world he weaves, I think book readers can confess that there are definitely some plot lines you have to google because there is just so much to keep up with and I am not 100% sure we even need some of the plot lines in book 4.

I am also still in awe of how Jon Snow has survived. Also, he seems to have resurrected with no consequences in the show...

ncornilsen

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #286 on: May 24, 2019, 10:15:48 AM »
Scientific American had a really cool article (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/) that posits that the reason so many of us were frustrated these last few seasons: "It's not just bad storytellingóitís because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological."  The writer feels that "the appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling" and that it was a kind of storytelling Benioff and Weiss simply couldn't manage to do on their own.  Cool read.

That was quite excellent.  From the article:

Quote
Another example of sociological TV drama with a similarly enthusiastic fan following is David Simonís The Wire, which followed the trajectory of a variety of actors in Baltimore, ranging from African-Americans in the impoverished and neglected inner city trying to survive, to police officers to journalists to unionized dock workers to city officials and teachers.

"The Wire" is often cited as one of the best TV series ever--and I happen to love it--but I didn't realize the similarities with GoT.   In the Wire, it doesn't matter if you are good or bad, or a main character or not, things just happen to you.  Tiny, sometimes random events would have major consequences, just like in real life.

I find The Wire to be very much more grounded than GOT is even from the books. When I finished The Wire I was depressed as f**k. I am just going to confess as much as I am in awe of GRRM and the world he weaves, I think book readers can confess that there are definitely some plot lines you have to google because there is just so much to keep up with and I am not 100% sure we even need some of the plot lines in book 4.

I am also still in awe of how Jon Snow has survived. Also, he seems to have resurrected with no consequences in the show...

In the books, Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia martell, survived and had landed in Westeros. I wonder if he was supposed to get caught and take the black, and fall into the role Jon filled for the last 2 seasons, and Jon was supposed to stay dead.

talltexan

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #287 on: May 24, 2019, 12:49:47 PM »
Yeah, I cannot imagine GRRM would have waited until Book V to introduce us to Aegon if he was anything other than FAegon. Perhaps some Blackfyre descendant.

madgeylou

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #288 on: May 28, 2019, 09:08:24 AM »
I loved the first 3 episodes of this season. Once they started in on making Dany go from self-sacrificing and concerned with her subjects to batshit crazy in a matter of minutes, I got irritated, because it's rushed, short-changed storytelling that also happens to fall into some sexist tropes.

Dany's fall should have and could have been tragic in a really compelling and interesting and non-sexist-trope way, if they'd given us some time and visibility into her inner world.

I heard this criticism on Talk the Thrones and thought the host put it really well -- up until this season, Dany was a point of view character (like she is in the books). We usually saw Dany's world through her eyes. We saw her hashing things out, thinking things through, making decisions, and in this way, we could understand where she was coming from.

What this season did -- especially "The Bells" -- is take away our access to her interiority, just at the moment we most needed to see what was going on in there. That was yanked away, then her storyline became nothing more meaningful than "bitches be crazy."

Dany deserved better! I could accept this outcome for her, but not the rushed way we got there.

Also ... if Bran was so important and had such a great story, then why was he not even in a whole season?

Also ... how does Tyrion get to dictate the terms of the future of Westerosi governance WHILE HE IS IN CHAINS?

Also ... why wasn't Jon at that big meeting? Why didn't anyone bring up the fact that he is Aegon Targaryan, with a claim to the throne? It would have been so much more impactful for him to CHOOSE to abdicate his throne, rather than being forcibly exiled to please a character who is fucking off out of Westeros within moments anyway?

If D&D lost their boner for telling this story, I really wish they would have just passed it on to someone who still had some passion and energy for it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #289 on: May 28, 2019, 11:11:53 AM »
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

partgypsy

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #290 on: May 28, 2019, 11:35:45 AM »
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

I disagree. She could go over the top in being murdery, but it was always specifically kicking upwards, not downwards. She would kill the slave masters and free the slaves. She would kill the Tarley father and son, but spare their troops. In contrast in the bells she could have flown directly to the keep and made an example of Cersei whom she despised. Instead, the bells tolled, the people she was burning with her dragons were actually HER SUBJECTS. She was basically killing her own people whom she said she would always protect. She never even specifically went after Cersei. There were ways to write it or build up to it where maybe it would make more sense (such as the villagers revolting or some final betrayal), but they chose to make it not be consistent with the rest of the story arc. I do agree the Dothracki would have gone hog wild regardless. But it's fine.

Have you all seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64IGxrQEN68
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 02:31:33 PM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #291 on: May 28, 2019, 11:50:37 AM »
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

I disagree. She could go over the top in being murdery, but it was always specifically kicking upwards, not downwards. She would kill the slave masters and free the slaves. She would kill the Tarley father and son, but spare their troops. In contrast in the bells she could have flown directly to the keep and made an example of Cersei whom she despised. Instead, the bells tolled, the people she was burning with her dragons were actually HER SUBJECTS. She was basically killing her own people whom she said she would always protect. She never even specifically went after Cersei. There were ways to write it or build up to it where maybe it would make more sense (such as the villagers revolting or some final betrayal), but they chose to make it not be consistent with the rest of the story arc.

You're taking it as gospel that all of the people massacred in the past were all evil slave owners.  I believe a pretty strong case can be made that this probably wasn't the entire truth.

As mentioned, you always saw things from her perspective in the earlier episodes . . . and even at the very end, she talked a good talk about how her actions were necessary.  That's the beauty of changing the perspective from what she sees a thousand feet away from the action to what actually happens down in the shit.

Samuel

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #292 on: May 28, 2019, 12:11:34 PM »
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

I disagree. She could go over the top in being murdery, but it was always specifically kicking upwards, not downwards. She would kill the slave masters and free the slaves. She would kill the Tarley father and son, but spare their troops. In contrast in the bells she could have flown directly to the keep and made an example of Cersei whom she despised. Instead, the bells tolled, the people she was burning with her dragons were actually HER SUBJECTS. She was basically killing her own people whom she said she would always protect. She never even specifically went after Cersei. There were ways to write it or build up to it where maybe it would make more sense (such as the villagers revolting or some final betrayal), but they chose to make it not be consistent with the rest of the story arc.

The lack of adequate provocation is what finally moves her into the "mad" and "too dangerous to rule" category. The illogical nature of it was necessary to show she had succumbed to the Targaryen madness and that this was beyond the typical political based brutality so many others engaged in.

Like all of the last 2 seasons this transformation was rushed, but it wasn't completely out of left field. She'd always planned to kill whoever stood between her and her rightful place on the Iron Throne. She was used to being loved by her followers, but after her cold reception by the people of Westeros she realized neither the Lords/Ladies nor the common people were going to flock to her like she expected so she decided instilling fear was her path to not only take the throne, but actually rule once that was achieved. In her head the people of King's Landing were expendable (useful even) in that pursuit, but she was the only one who had lost enough perspective to see it that way.

At least I think that's what they were going for.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 12:55:43 PM by Samuel »

Telecaster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #293 on: May 28, 2019, 12:43:07 PM »
The lack of adequate provocation is what finally moves her into the "mad" and "too dangerous to rule" category. The illogical nature of it was necessary to show she had succumbed to the Targaryen madness and that this was beyond the typical political based brutality so many others engaged in.

Like all of the last 2 seasons this transformation was rushed, but it wasn't completely out of left field. She'd always planned to kill whoever stood between her and her rightful place on the Iron Throne. She was used to being loved by her followers, but after her cold reception by the people of Westeros she realized neither the Lords/Ladies nor the common people were going to flock to her like she expected so she decided instilling fear was her path to not only taking the throne, but actually ruling once that was achieved. In her head the people of King's Landing were expendable (useful even) in that pursuit, but she was the only one who had lost enough perspective to see it that way.

At least I think that's what they were going for.

Agreed.   There was some foreshadowing, but we didn't really see her decent into madness.   In S8 she lost another dragon, along with Ser Jorah and Missandei, Tyrion's advice had gone bad, and she was betrayed by Varys.   She had reason to crack, but it seemed to happen all at once. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #294 on: May 28, 2019, 12:46:13 PM »
The lack of adequate provocation is what finally moves her into the "mad" and "too dangerous to rule" category. The illogical nature of it was necessary to show she had succumbed to the Targaryen madness and that this was beyond the typical political based brutality so many others engaged in.

Like all of the last 2 seasons this transformation was rushed, but it wasn't completely out of left field. She'd always planned to kill whoever stood between her and her rightful place on the Iron Throne. She was used to being loved by her followers, but after her cold reception by the people of Westeros she realized neither the Lords/Ladies nor the common people were going to flock to her like she expected so she decided instilling fear was her path to not only taking the throne, but actually ruling once that was achieved. In her head the people of King's Landing were expendable (useful even) in that pursuit, but she was the only one who had lost enough perspective to see it that way.

At least I think that's what they were going for.

Agreed.   There was some foreshadowing, but we didn't really see her decent into madness.   In S8 she lost another dragon, along with Ser Jorah and Missandei, Tyrion's advice had gone bad, and she was betrayed by Varys.   She had reason to crack, but it seemed to happen all at once. 

I think the biggest blow was when she realized that she had no legitimate claim to the throne.  Everything she had been working for up to that point was a lie.

Telecaster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #295 on: May 28, 2019, 12:56:01 PM »
^ Yes.  And she also lost her potential lover, Jon.   

Cromacster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #296 on: May 28, 2019, 01:31:27 PM »
Danerys arc actually made a lot of sense to me.

She was always OK with over the top and uncompromising murder of people . . . it's just that we all went along with it (and cheered) because the murders were confined to what we were being told were bad people.  As mentioned, we always saw these actions through Dany's eyes.  There was never really a close up of what was going on. . . for all we know many of the 'bad' people being massacred were decent folk then as well.  With the siege and then pillage of King's Landing we got shown first hand what that same uncompromising type of action does at a very granular level.

Exactly the same actions (and quite consistent with her history), but just a slightly different perspective (that of the people being massacred) really drives home a very different message.

I disagree. She could go over the top in being murdery, but it was always specifically kicking upwards, not downwards. She would kill the slave masters and free the slaves. She would kill the Tarley father and son, but spare their troops. In contrast in the bells she could have flown directly to the keep and made an example of Cersei whom she despised. Instead, the bells tolled, the people she was burning with her dragons were actually HER SUBJECTS. She was basically killing her own people whom she said she would always protect. She never even specifically went after Cersei. There were ways to write it or build up to it where maybe it would make more sense (such as the villagers revolting or some final betrayal), but they chose to make it not be consistent with the rest of the story arc.

The lack of adequate provocation is what finally moves her into the "mad" and "too dangerous to rule" category. The illogical nature of it was necessary to show she had succumbed to the Targaryen madness and that this was beyond the typical political based brutality so many others engaged in.

Like all of the last 2 seasons this transformation was rushed, but it wasn't completely out of left field. She'd always planned to kill whoever stood between her and her rightful place on the Iron Throne. She was used to being loved by her followers, but after her cold reception by the people of Westeros she realized neither the Lords/Ladies nor the common people were going to flock to her like she expected so she decided instilling fear was her path to not only take the throne, but actually rule once that was achieved. In her head the people of King's Landing were expendable (useful even) in that pursuit, but she was the only one who had lost enough perspective to see it that way.

At least I think that's what they were going for.

This makes me think about Danaerys in a different light.  Was she mad? Or was she just doing what she felt necessary in order to rule?  Right before she burned the city, was the look on her face mad with anger, or was it one of anguish at the realization of what she was about to do?

All of the above could fall under the "mad" category, but I think the intention between the two could be telling as to what happened to her character.  I'd need to rewatch the last episode to see which version I feel it was.

simonsez

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #297 on: May 28, 2019, 02:12:51 PM »
All of the above could fall under the "mad" category, but I think the intention between the two could be telling as to what happened to her character.  I'd need to rewatch the last episode to see which version I feel it was.
It just struck me as stupid.  Seething with rage in that moment made sense based on what had happened, but why would you be glaring in Cersei's direction in the Red Keep and then just decide to swoop down and wipe out the city.  Just go destroy the Red Keep and keep the city largely intact.  If you want to portray Dany as crazy and somehow thinking the smallfolk were reflective of Cersei - okay, but as has been pointed out, that connection wasn't really fleshed out.  Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.  Even when Missandei said "Dracarys", I took that as that Dany should flame Cersei & Co., since, ya know, they were the ones on the rampart beheading her to get a reaction and not the citizens.

Even if Dany hadn't gone crazy and had resigned herself to be the wife of Aegon, there would've been plenty of material to sort out that wasn't fairytale ending.  No way would an independent Winterfell, Bronn in Highgarden, Grey Worm et al. leaving like that, and all these other silly things have happened (nor should they have either way) so tidily.  It would've been still very difficult for Aegon VI to rule.  Hell, you're a Targaryen making the rules after re-establishing the throne (similar to Aegon I).  You can do whatever you want, Jon already said 1000x he didn't want the crown so it could've been a shallow title.  You could recognize Jon as legitimate and still have the ruling power.  Break the wheel!  Do your thing!  Don't go crazy!

Side note: Isn't it weird how even in Westeros the wife of a king is a queen but the husband of a queen is a prince?  No king (regent) or princess used.

GuitarStv

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #298 on: May 28, 2019, 02:24:47 PM »
Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.

Daenarys has a history of executing people who stand with her enemies - innocence be damned.  You think every 'slaver' who died in her massacres was guilty?  Sure many of them were, but I bet some were just going with the flow and afraid of disobeying the biggest source of power that they had ever known.

Same deal in King's Landing.  The people still there were supporting Cersi.  So they had to die.

Cromacster

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Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #299 on: May 28, 2019, 02:59:02 PM »
All of the above could fall under the "mad" category, but I think the intention between the two could be telling as to what happened to her character.  I'd need to rewatch the last episode to see which version I feel it was.
It just struck me as stupid.  Seething with rage in that moment made sense based on what had happened, but why would you be glaring in Cersei's direction in the Red Keep and then just decide to swoop down and wipe out the city. Just go destroy the Red Keep and keep the city largely intact.  If you want to portray Dany as crazy and somehow thinking the smallfolk were reflective of Cersei - okay, but as has been pointed out, that connection wasn't really fleshed out.  Dany just had bad stuff happen to her and the people of the city were not involved.  Even when Missandei said "Dracarys", I took that as that Dany should flame Cersei & Co., since, ya know, they were the ones on the rampart beheading her to get a reaction and not the citizens.

Even if Dany hadn't gone crazy and had resigned herself to be the wife of Aegon, there would've been plenty of material to sort out that wasn't fairytale ending.  No way would an independent Winterfell, Bronn in Highgarden, Grey Worm et al. leaving like that, and all these other silly things have happened (nor should they have either way) so tidily.  It would've been still very difficult for Aegon VI to rule.  Hell, you're a Targaryen making the rules after re-establishing the throne (similar to Aegon I).  You can do whatever you want, Jon already said 1000x he didn't want the crown so it could've been a shallow title.  You could recognize Jon as legitimate and still have the ruling power.  Break the wheel!  Do your thing!  Don't go crazy!

Side note: Isn't it weird how even in Westeros the wife of a king is a queen but the husband of a queen is a prince?  No king (regent) or princess used.

I agree the rational choice....would have been to fly to the red keep and torch it, leaving the rest of the city untouched more or less.

If you wanted to send the message of "Bitch you fucked up, you fucked up bad".  What better way than to burn the entire city while she watched?