Author Topic: Game of Thrones is back!!  (Read 12138 times)

simonsez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 776
  • Age: 33
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2019, 02:28:45 PM »
It's very tough for me to be overly critical. It's a miracle that we are getting something like this on television at all. Sure, the show runners could have made some different choices (less shaky cam, more lighting)...but considering the constraints they are working under - limited episodes to work with, and a lazy author who is providing the source material - I found it fairly incredible overall.
I'm sorry you find that 70 year old who is a multiple Hugo, Nebula award winner for things besides strictly dealing with the world of Planetos, who takes an active role in local art, attends conventions, maintains a blog, and generally does whatever he wants - to be lazy on a forum that generally celebrates doing whatever you want when FI.

To invoke Neil Gaiman, George Martin is not your bitch.  Even if George Martin call himself lazy (no idea how he identifies with his position on the industriousness continuum), I don't see the connection to the enjoyment of last night's episode or how this season is wrapping.  It seems like an unnecessary ad hominem.

The miracle of GoT being on HBO happened....more than a decade ago (2007).  The books were not finished then (5th wasn't even out and 4th had only just come out) and they still went ahead to greenlight production and figured at worst they had the outline for the later seasons.  This was always a risk and IMO, not only increasingly irrelevant but a good thing.  The show smartly started diverging more from the books fairly early on and I'm not sure even if we had more ASOIAF output at this point that it would alter what we viewed/are viewing this season.  The moaning is already loud enough from the book purists clamoring for more explanations and the lack of prophecies on the show with how it all went down in the godswood* but the show has purposely avoided bogging itself down with all the richness that the books provide as a way to tell the general story in 73 episodes.  I do pity those that are so distracted by the connection to the books that are really moot at this point as it detracts from their enjoyment of the best production value to ever grace television.

* Like if you want to point out it's weird, even given Arya's stealth ability (as proved multiple times throughout the show and even last night when the Filch's where trying to catch a student wearing Ignotus Peverell's cloak out of bed in the restricted section of the library) to get to that point past all the other wights and useless WW lieutenants and 'jump' out of nowhwere, that's more of a legitimate qualm IMO than boohooing the choice of Arya as the assassin because of some prophecy in the books that isn't even mentioned on the show.  Anyway, I digress.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13346
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2019, 02:41:40 PM »
Game of Thrones is one of the rare instances where the book was much worse than the television show.  I watched the first season on HBO and then slogged through books 1 - 3.  George Martin is a terrible writer.  His ideas and plot are fine, but the actual quality of his writing was continuously making me wince.  I'm quite happy that the TV people will do the ending of the series.

Gondolin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 567
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2019, 09:42:43 PM »
Quote
invoke Neil Gaiman, George Martin is not your bitch. 

Can we, like, not? Just once? Both of you?

I'm as tired as anyone of entitled dolts moaning for the next book but at this point I'm *almost* as sick of sanctimonious "good" fans rushing to quote Gaiman in his defense.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2019, 09:44:14 PM »
Quote
invoke Neil Gaiman, George Martin is not your bitch. 

Can we, like, not? Just once? Both of you?

I'm as tired as anyone of entitled dolts moaning for the next book but at this point I'm *almost* as sick of sanctimonious "good" fans rushing to quote Gaiman in his defense.

God, yes.

Travis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2400
  • Location: Arizona
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2019, 11:59:18 PM »
So the North is almost completely depopulated now, right?  They were nearly killed to a man in the Battle of the Bastards, now nearly killed to a man in Winterfell.

itchyfeet

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #105 on: April 30, 2019, 03:10:16 AM »
So the North is almost completely depopulated now, right?  They were nearly killed to a man in the Battle of the Bastards, now nearly killed to a man in Winterfell.

Yep everyone is dead except the main characters who canít die no matter how much they try.

I feel a bit torn about the episode. I was definitely on the edge of my seat for the whole 90 mins, as as a stand-alone piece it was epic and great entertainment.

But, on the other hand, as a long time reader/ viewer I am left a little underwhelmed. This was the Great War, the climax of the whole shebang, and most of the main characters were impotent.

Jon useless, Sam useless (true to character for a battle, but hoped heíd use his smarts some way), Dany useless (maybe slightly less than Jon), Tyrion useless, Sansa useless, Davos useless..... and what was Bram even doing the whole show.

But maybe that was the whole point. In the face of the hordes of the undead there was nothing anyone could do, except Arya.

Like many others, I would have loved to have seen some of the fan theories as being correct.

I wanted to be more shocked eg: little Sam killed and turned, attacking Sam.. or A blue eyed Grey worm attacking Missendai. And I would have liked to have seen a least one of the white walkers killed so that there would have been a whole section of the army of the dead turn to dust. And I would have like more main characters to have been killed.

But, that all said, I really enjoyed the episode.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4052
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #106 on: April 30, 2019, 06:00:43 AM »
So the North is almost completely depopulated now, right?  They were nearly killed to a man in the Battle of the Bastards, now nearly killed to a man in Winterfell.

Yep everyone is dead except the main characters who canít die no matter how much they try.

I feel a bit torn about the episode. I was definitely on the edge of my seat for the whole 90 mins, as as a stand-alone piece it was epic and great entertainment.

But, on the other hand, as a long time reader/ viewer I am left a little underwhelmed. This was the Great War, the climax of the whole shebang, and most of the main characters were impotent.

Jon useless, Sam useless (true to character for a battle, but hoped heíd use his smarts some way), Dany useless (maybe slightly less than Jon), Tyrion useless, Sansa useless, Davos useless..... and what was Bram even doing the whole show.

But maybe that was the whole point. In the face of the hordes of the undead there was nothing anyone could do, except Arya.

Like many others, I would have loved to have seen some of the fan theories as being correct.

I wanted to be more shocked eg: little Sam killed and turned, attacking Sam.. or A blue eyed Grey worm attacking Missendai. And I would have liked to have seen a least one of the white walkers killed so that there would have been a whole section of the army of the dead turn to dust. And I would have like more main characters to have been killed.

But, that all said, I really enjoyed the episode.

I agree with you for the most part. But Iím trying to not let myself get mired in shouldíves and enjoy the final season as it is.

Nick_Miller

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #107 on: April 30, 2019, 06:59:40 AM »
My predictions after these first two episodes:

Jon will die, again, during or just after the great battle but Dany is pregnant with their child

Jamie will survive but with a grievous wound that will not allow him to live long but insists on joining the army as it moves south against his sister.  Brienne cares for him until his death.

Bran will indeed be the key to killing the Night King (love the idea of him warging into the ice dragon!), surviving but being less human than he is now and will retreat north? to seek refuge away from humanity

Cersei, seeing Dany approaching with her one remaining dragon and seeing her people flee her side to join with Dany, burns the Red Keep with wildfire as soon as Dany's army gets inside the city walls

Bronn kills the remaining dragon but that doesn't stop Kings Landing from being overrun/taken back by the Targareon forces

Tyrion, handed the crossbow by Bronn, kills his sister in mercy to keep her from dying in the fire or to finish her off as she lays dying of burns.  He tells Jamie what he did and why before Jamie dies from his wounds

Dany, finding the Iron Throne turned to slag by the fire, returns north to Winterfell to rule from there and raise Jon's child.  Sansa is keeping a close eye on her as the madness that took her grandfather seems to be coming for her.  Arya, pregnant with Robert Baratheon's grandchild, is Dany's hand.  The wheel is set for another round of fights for the Seven Kingdoms with the heirs to the Targareon, Baratheon, and Starks (through Sansa) still around.

Halfway through the final season, I am now even more obsessed with a theory like this! I love how you think, because "resetting the chess board for another cycle of power plays and violence" would be the perfect ending, IMO. Not sure we'll get it, but I would love it.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4052
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #108 on: April 30, 2019, 07:06:31 AM »
Lol, I know I said I was trying to just appreciate this season for what it is... but itís undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked. Mr. Kris was especially irritated by it. And yeah, pretty much agree with this article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

Nick_Miller

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #109 on: April 30, 2019, 07:22:54 AM »
Lol, I know I said I was trying to just appreciate this season for what it is... but itís undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked. Mr. Kris was especially irritated by it. And yeah, pretty much agree with this article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

The dead were rushing the walls and one of the main characters shouted out, from the ground inside the castle, "Man the walls!" and I was like, "...What? They aren't manned already?"

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4052
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #110 on: April 30, 2019, 09:05:19 AM »
Lol, I know I said I was trying to just appreciate this season for what it is... but itís undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked. Mr. Kris was especially irritated by it. And yeah, pretty much agree with this article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

The dead were rushing the walls and one of the main characters shouted out, from the ground inside the castle, "Man the walls!" and I was like, "...What? They aren't manned already?"

Exactly. That was effing ridiculous.

simonsez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 776
  • Age: 33
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #111 on: April 30, 2019, 09:07:45 AM »
So the North is almost completely depopulated now, right?  They were nearly killed to a man in the Battle of the Bastards, now nearly killed to a man in Winterfell.

Yep everyone is dead except the main characters who canít die no matter how much they try.

I feel a bit torn about the episode. I was definitely on the edge of my seat for the whole 90 mins, as as a stand-alone piece it was epic and great entertainment.

But, on the other hand, as a long time reader/ viewer I am left a little underwhelmed. This was the Great War, the climax of the whole shebang, and most of the main characters were impotent.

Jon useless, Sam useless (true to character for a battle, but hoped heíd use his smarts some way), Dany useless (maybe slightly less than Jon), Tyrion useless, Sansa useless, Davos useless..... and what was Bram even doing the whole show.

But maybe that was the whole point. In the face of the hordes of the undead there was nothing anyone could do, except Arya.

Like many others, I would have loved to have seen some of the fan theories as being correct.

I wanted to be more shocked eg: little Sam killed and turned, attacking Sam.. or A blue eyed Grey worm attacking Missendai. And I would have liked to have seen a least one of the white walkers killed so that there would have been a whole section of the army of the dead turn to dust. And I would have like more main characters to have been killed.

But, that all said, I really enjoyed the episode.
Pretty much how I felt (and I am okay with characters feeling useless in the face of Death) - would've been interesting to have been hooked up to a blood pressure device to note the changes from normal.  It was intense throughout.  I always thought it was cool when they did that for poker and see someone at like 170 after an action just sitting there looking calm.  As soon as I saw Carice's name in the credits my heart started pounding.  If I see Michiel Huisman's name (which I don't expect to but would be a twist) in the next ep's opening credits the effect will be similar!  Tobias Menzies is set to appear apparently at some point but that doesn't have the same gravitas IMO.

Aside from the near miss javelin attempt by the NK, we didn't see any other White Walker do anything let alone battle.  D&D warned about how battle scenes can be monotonous - and yeah, I've had my fill of wight battles in the dark for awhile.  But would've been cool to see more of Ghost battling or the aforementioned White Walkers dueling someone (and my guess is the lighting would've been lighter for that had it happened).

Upon rewatch I realized that I missed exactly what happened with the Arya godswood scene.  For some reason I thought Bran had caught the knife at first after Arya dropped it.

Glad some of the tinfoil can be put to rest as well.  In our betting pool 11 of the 32 thought Bran was the Night King.

Gondolin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 567
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2019, 10:20:08 AM »
Quote
but itís undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked

Really made me pine for the Battle of the Blackwater. Ya know, no magic, just people fighting on a scale where you can see and remember where everyone is.

Quote
Glad some of the tinfoil can be put to rest as well.  In our betting pool 11 of the 32 thought Bran was the Night King.

Yikes. I mean, I get that discussing wild theories is the primary source of enjoyment for half the audience, but I'm always shocked at how many can't seem to separate that from, ya know, what professional storytellers are likely to do based on the narrative so far.

Lulee

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: NH
  • "We'll jump off that bridge when we come to it."
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2019, 01:51:45 PM »
My predictions after these first two episodes:

Jon will die, again, during or just after the great battle but Dany is pregnant with their child

Jamie will survive but with a grievous wound that will not allow him to live long but insists on joining the army as it moves south against his sister.  Brienne cares for him until his death.

Bran will indeed be the key to killing the Night King (love the idea of him warging into the ice dragon!), surviving but being less human than he is now and will retreat north? to seek refuge away from humanity

Cersei, seeing Dany approaching with her one remaining dragon and seeing her people flee her side to join with Dany, burns the Red Keep with wildfire as soon as Dany's army gets inside the city walls

Bronn kills the remaining dragon but that doesn't stop Kings Landing from being overrun/taken back by the Targareon forces

Tyrion, handed the crossbow by Bronn, kills his sister in mercy to keep her from dying in the fire or to finish her off as she lays dying of burns.  He tells Jamie what he did and why before Jamie dies from his wounds

Dany, finding the Iron Throne turned to slag by the fire, returns north to Winterfell to rule from there and raise Jon's child.  Sansa is keeping a close eye on her as the madness that took her grandfather seems to be coming for her.  Arya, pregnant with Robert Baratheon's grandchild, is Dany's hand.  The wheel is set for another round of fights for the Seven Kingdoms with the heirs to the Targareon, Baratheon, and Starks (through Sansa) still around.

Halfway through the final season, I am now even more obsessed with a theory like this! I love how you think, because "resetting the chess board for another cycle of power plays and violence" would be the perfect ending, IMO. Not sure we'll get it, but I would love it.

Boy I was wrong about Bran being useful as more than bait as well as about Jon dying.  Not sure what state Jaime is in. 

As annoying as it was as a viewer, yeah, leaving the scene dark was the right choice.  It made us struggle just like the humans on screen to try to see what was going on.  That and the quiet just before the dead attacked was very effective.  You can't see 'em, you can't hear 'em, but you know they're coming straight at you and there's way more of them than you.

I was surprised by how many survived the "Great War" although some could still, I suppose, die from their wounds post battle.  When I last saw Sam he was buried under a heap of bodies, some trying to kill him, so he might die from having chunks taken out of him.  Same goes for Brienne and Jaime I would guess.  It would give more punch to a loss if we could spend some time with it instead of it being one more among thousands going on around us.

Glad at least one dragon survived.  There's a hell of a lot of bodies around, too many to bury. Sort out any buried survivors and then burn them off.  The stench alone from leaving them to rot would be enough to chase all the survivors far, far South.

I disagree though with the idea that Theon's death was futile or only useful as a distraction for Arya though I'm sure it helped her.  He went to the weirwood knowing it was a suicide mission.  At the end, he chose to fight the fear that emasculated him more than Ramsey's knife did and chose to go out with courage.  He wasn't going to collapse in terror or run this time which was a redemption from a lot of his failings.

The Night King holding back his White Walkers was a wise tactical maneuver.  He realized the humans learned that taking out one White Walker would kill off a swarth of wights.  So let the wights do all the killing at Winterfell and he'd have still more to help him swarm south.  Lose his many or all his White Walkers during this battle and he'd be alone again, vastly outnumbered, and as he faced a swarm of humans coming at him, surely one would get though to him with Valarian steel.  So it was a good, long term strategy.  Just didn't work out.

I'm hoping the horror of battle that she was fully in and the losses she's suffered tempers Dany going forward.  Or it could push her further into Mad King territory.  There's going to be a lot of time on the march South for her to work through her feelings about Jon's being the true heir though I'm betting he's going to tell her he doesn't want the bloody throne, never did, just wanted to care for his people.  Her reaction to that will be something of a litmus test as to what kind of ruler she'll ultimately become --- one like Jon who puts his people first or one like Cersei who puts the pursuit of power before all other considerations.

The plotting of the next three episodes is going to be different than what I originally envisioned seeing the Great War finished in one episode.  So now I expect that the next episode will be recuperation, retrenching and heading South with a plan.  Ravens will fly to all the remaining part of the Seven Kingdoms that Dany defeated the Knight King and watch the undecided come flocking to her side.  Messages will head to the Iron Bank and to other countries as well.  How many people hate the Lannisters and will join up with Dany at this point?  Will the Iron Bank decide it's been a bad investment after all to back Cersei against Dany and Dragon Company?  The following episode will be the truncated trip South with people flocking to Dany's side (swelling her head/ego along with her ranks?) including a mass exodus from Kings Landing and then start of the final battle as that episode closes. The last episode would finish up the battle with Cersei's death giving the Seven Kingdom's back to the Targareon side and then I'm still predicting the same denouement which @Nick_Miller describes so well as "resetting the chess board for another cycle of power plays and violence".

Travis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2400
  • Location: Arizona
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #114 on: April 30, 2019, 04:22:55 PM »
Lol, I know I said I was trying to just appreciate this season for what it is... but itís undeniable the battle strategy in episode 3 sucked. Mr. Kris was especially irritated by it. And yeah, pretty much agree with this article.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

The dead were rushing the walls and one of the main characters shouted out, from the ground inside the castle, "Man the walls!" and I was like, "...What? They aren't manned already?"

Exactly. That was effing ridiculous.

https://www.forces.net/military-life/fun/game-thrones-siege-winterfell-military-strategist-takes-look

Battle analysis written by an Army instructor I talk to a lot.  We've been discussing this back and forth all day.

Jon_Snow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2873
  • Location: An Island in the Salish Sea (or Baja)
  • In Baja....there is no kale.
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #115 on: April 30, 2019, 06:35:35 PM »
It's very tough for me to be overly critical. It's a miracle that we are getting something like this on television at all. Sure, the show runners could have made some different choices (less shaky cam, more lighting)...but considering the constraints they are working under - limited episodes to work with, and a lazy author who is providing the source material - I found it fairly incredible overall.
I'm sorry you find that 70 year old who is a multiple Hugo, Nebula award winner for things besides strictly dealing with the world of Planetos, who takes an active role in local art, attends conventions, maintains a blog, and generally does whatever he wants - to be lazy on a forum that generally celebrates doing whatever you want when FI.

To invoke Neil Gaiman, George Martin is not your bitch.  Even if George Martin call himself lazy (no idea how he identifies with his position on the industriousness continuum), I don't see the connection to the enjoyment of last night's episode or how this season is wrapping.  It seems like an unnecessary ad hominem.

Eh...to call him "lazy" on my part probably isn't fair. I'm a FIRE'd fellow myself and though my life is pretty much devoid of anything that could be characterized by "laziness", I'll never leave a legacy remotely close to his...even if he never publishes another word. So yeah, I know what someone like me looks like throwing criticism at someone like him. But there is very little doubt that he hasn't really dealt with becoming a "celebrity author" well at all. At the very least, he lost his focus after producing an incredible first 3 books - easily my 3 favourite books of any fantasy sequence. I found these so amazing upon their publication that I proceeded to buy replica weaponry from the series. I own a replica Longclaw and Needle...and was about to spring for Robert's Battle hammer before my DW proclaimed "ENOUGH". And then there is my screen name which I've indentified myself with on various forums well before the show became a cultural "thing". My fandom is legit. I'm  aware of his award winning, pre-ASOIAF writing accomplishments, having read most of it....admittedly AFTER discovering his mainstream fantasy hit. I'm certainly not alone here.

I actually agree with the GRRM not owing anyone ANYTHING...Neil Gaiman's "defense" of GRRM has merit...but there is a cautionary tale here....a "what could have been". The "what could have" being probably the best fantasy series ever written. Doubtful it will be viewed by history as that now. George, for years, maintained that he would remain ahead of the unfolding of the TV show with his books. He maintained this delusional thinking for quite a long time. Careful reading of his blog posts suggests he is probably a bit embarrassed as to how this has unfolded. But not embarrassed enough to not appear in a Jimmy Fallon late night skit recently. Bizarre. It could be as simple as age (70 as you mentioned) has simply caught up with him. Still a bit sad, but not quite as frustration-inducing as him just not giving a f*ck anymore.

As it is, I'm grateful that at least we have had the show for long time fans of the GRRM's fantasy world to have some sort of resolution. In isolation....it's a all-time great TV show, of that there is no doubt at all. I'm hoping for a great 3 episode conclusion.

FIRE Artist

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 563
  • Location: YEG
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #116 on: May 05, 2019, 08:49:12 PM »
The stage is set for a Hound/Mountian and Arya/Cersei take down. I do believe Jaime will witness/enable it and Cersei will die knowing he betrayed her in the end.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2019, 08:03:24 AM »
Yikes, things went from bad to worse in a hurry.

Nick_Miller

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2019, 09:41:28 AM »
Well, it would have been pretty anti-climatic to have Dany and company waltz up with an overwhelming advantage.

I have to say I didn't understand a few things...

1) What did Dany and Tyrion think their little display at the end was going to accomplish? Marching up with like 50 Unsullied ain't going to intimidate anyone. Cersei has a lot of troops now, the mountain, those awesome giant crossbow things (balistas?), the naval advantage, and big ass walls when Dany has no visible siege weapons. Tyrion's speech about Cersei's child was pretty lame. He has lost sooooo much character momentum from a few seasons ago. His decision-making has been garbage lately.

2) Why didn't Cersei order her troops to kill Tyrion?? She freakin' sent an assassin after him already so she obviously really wants him dead! He was RIGHT there. It would have further weakened Dany at NO cost to Cersei. She looked weak in front of her troops sparing him.

3) Where the hell did Euron's ships come from? I would think if you're flying up on a dragon that you could see for tens of miles in all directions! She just happens to come around a bend and OOPs there are a buttload of ships, with magnificent aim on choppy seas, shooting giant arrows right into a flying dragon. They are like the anti-Stormtroopers. So accurate!

4) And was the big drunken orgy really the best idea up North? I guess you can't stop those things from happening, but geez how did they clean up all the blood and guts which would have been allllll over the place so quickly so they could party?

I give Euron the MVP. The dude delivered.  I don't care for him as a character, but he delivered.  But I only give the episode 7/10 for all of the questionable (to me) writing decisions above. I did enjoy the drunken scene, even though it made little sense to me. Watching Hound eat while everyone else in the whole room was listening to Dany or Jon was hilarious and so in character for him.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 10:01:27 AM by Nick_Miller »

FIRE Artist

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 563
  • Location: YEG
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2019, 09:43:55 AM »
At this point, not only do I think that Arya is going to kill Cercei, I now think she will end up on the throne.  I think the northern cheer for her and her statement that she was never going to be a lady are foreshadowing of this - not a lady, but that doesn't mean not a queen. 

Cercei's prophesy about a younger one coming to knock her off her throne is likely to be filled by Arya - Dany (and to some extent Sansa) were both red herrings for Cercei to focus on. 

Cromacster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1696
  • Location: Minnesnowta
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2019, 09:50:19 AM »
At this point, not only do I think that Arya is going to kill Cercei, I now think she will end up on the throne.  I think the northern cheer for her and her statement that she was never going to be a lady are foreshadowing of this - not a lady, but that doesn't mean not a queen. 

Cercei's prophesy about a younger one coming to knock her off her throne is likely to be filled by Arya - Dany (and to some extent Sansa) were both red herrings for Cercei to focus on.

She also named her direwolf after a legendary warrior queen, Nymeria.  If you're reading into the direwolf names.

Philociraptor

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
  • Age: 29
  • Location: DFW, TX
  • Eat. Sleep. Invest. Repeat.
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2019, 09:53:16 AM »
After last week my expectations are 0. Because of that yesterday's episode wasn't so bad. Westeros must have some bad-ass engineers working on those scorpions to make them perfectly accurate while mounted on rocking ships without kickback after each shot. Cercei showed her complete lack of compassion and yet didn't simply end the war when the majority of her enemies were in scorpion-range in front of the city gates. I think if they had made season 8 the Long Night and season 9 the war for the Iron Throne they wouldn't have made as many silly mistakes rushing the story to the end. Very unfortunate.

Nick_Miller

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #122 on: May 06, 2019, 09:58:57 AM »
After last week my expectations are 0. Because of that yesterday's episode wasn't so bad. Westeros must have some bad-ass engineers working on those scorpions to make them perfectly accurate while mounted on rocking ships without kickback after each shot. Cercei showed her complete lack of compassion and yet didn't simply end the war when the majority of her enemies were in scorpion-range in front of the city gates. I think if they had made season 8 the Long Night and season 9 the war for the Iron Throne they wouldn't have made as many silly mistakes rushing the story to the end. Very unfortunate.

Yeah..I mean I was questioning why Cersei didn't just kill Tyrion, but yeah, why didn't she just mow ALL of them down? They had like 50 troops out in the open with no visible means of escape. It's not like Cersei cares about diplomacy or anything. Just shoot them!!! And why kill Missandei when she is the perfect hostage?? Dany's BFF! Keeping her as a hostage would make a lot more tactical sense than killing her, that is assuming you aren't going to freakin' kill Dany when you have the chance and just put an end to it all.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 10:14:07 AM by Nick_Miller »

simonsez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 776
  • Age: 33
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #123 on: May 06, 2019, 10:36:04 AM »
Well, it would have been pretty anti-climatic to have Dany and company waltz up with an overwhelming advantage.

I have to say I didn't understand a few things...

1) What did Dany and Tyrion think their little display at the end was going to accomplish? Marching up with like 50 Unsullied ain't going to intimidate anyone. Tyrion's speech about Cersei's child was pretty lame. He has lost sooooo much character momentum from a few seasons ago. His decision-making has been garbage lately.

2) Why didn't Cersei order her troops to kill Tyrion?? She freakin' sent an assassin after him already so she obviously really wants him dead! He was RIGHT there. It would have further weakened Dany at NO cost to Cersei. She looked weak in front of her troops sparing him.

3) Where the hell did Euron's ships come from? I would think if you're flying up on a dragon that you could see for tens of miles in all directions! She just happens to come around a bend and OOPs there are a buttload of ships, with magnificent aim on choppy seas, shooting giant arrows right into a flying dragon. They are like the anti-Stormtroopers. So accurate!

4) And was the big drunken orgy really the best idea up North? I guess you can't stop those things from happening, but geez how did they clean up all the blood and guts which would have been allllll over the place so quickly so they could party?

I give Euron the MVP. The dude delivered.  I don't care for him as a character, but he delivered.  But I only give the episode 7/10 for all of the questionable (to me) writing decisions above.
1) They said during the episode it was for propaganda purposes to show that they at least gave Cersei a chance at peace (again).  The 50 Unsullied I figured were there for protection of Varys, Daeny, and Tyrion in case it was an ambush, not to intimidate.  In fact, I figure the lack of soldier presence was chosen specifically not to intimidate but to show that the negotiation attempt was the focus.

2) No idea!  If I was her I would've then or last season when they were 1 on 1 (or 1 on 2 if you want to count Gregor as a person).  In fact, why not unleash all those scorpions (especially when on dry land, they must be even more accurate - if that's even possible) on that party of 50 and see how many you take out - she already knew she was going to say No to whatever Tyrion had to say as well as kill Missandei.  She's turned into a Bond villain (rather, the show has to have the proper "drama" in last episodes) with the requirements for certain enemies to be dispatched.  Don't be surprised if next week they show one of the dungeons in the Red Keep with a big table with a laser gun mounted.

3) Not sure how high she was flying but the Dragonstone area has a lot of bluffs and steep ridges.  I didn't mind that the ships were hiding and weren't seen from afar.  I agree the setup of that was a little cheesy - the accuracy, the exact angle to expect them to fly in, the timing of that (how would they know when they're coming, or would Euron's fleet just be sitting there for weeks waiting for that exact 5-10 second window when the element of surprise was on their side until they're spotted), etc.

4) To each their own but I thought they handled this well.  It was somber in the beginning, even before the feast when they had the scene with the pyres.  I didn't need to see the equivalent of Sam cleaning poop in the Citadel to know that there was a lot of work in the aftermath of the battle (including cleaning the inside of the castle and getting tables arranged for a banquet), the soldiers are weary, and people are generally downtrodden.  A lot of reflection and then it all starts to transition when Gendry is given Storm's End.  For those that survived, they realize there's still a lot going on and to live for and it's not the worst idea to drink wine with the people you've just been through hell with.  I even enjoyed how it transitioned from Daeny starting the reverie and then Jon stealing the show.  Couple that with her the rest of the episode and they've done a great job showing the change for her to be more like her dad and unhinged.

One peeve I had was with Jamie's unnecessary drama at the end.  Everyone watching the show and everyone remaining in the Seven Kingdoms knows that Jamie will be there in KL one way or another to see Cersei's fate.  It would not have been that difficult to have a little compassion and be like "Sorry but I have to do this" and then kiss Brienne and ride off.  Brienne might still cry the same way but deep down she has to know it's not reasonable to expect he would've stayed there for the rest of his life while Cersei is still on the Iron Throne and Jon/Daeny are headed down to confront Cersei.  The hatefulness didn't do it for me.  He could've even injected some sarcasm and said "the things I do for hate" and that would've been more understandable.  It just felt like he was being harsh to Brienne without cause.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4052
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #124 on: May 06, 2019, 10:45:44 AM »
I read Jamie's brusqueness with Brienne more as a bit of self-hatred and maybe his feelings about her are stronger than he wants them to be... but he feels he doesn't "get" to pursue more than sex with her because of his bond with Cersei. He doesn't want to be gentler with Brienne because it'll be easier for her to get over him if he gives her more reason to see him as an asshole.

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3847
  • Age: 28
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #125 on: May 06, 2019, 10:52:31 AM »
I read Jamie's brusqueness with Brienne more as a bit of self-hatred and maybe his feelings about her are stronger than he wants them to be... but he feels he doesn't "get" to pursue more than sex with her because of his bond with Cersei. He doesn't want to be gentler with Brienne because it'll be easier for her to get over him if he gives her more reason to see him as an asshole.
Agreed 100%.  I was reminded a bit of "that phone call" between Walter White and Skyler towards the end of Breaking Bad.  Not quite the same intentions but a similar vibe.

I really liked last night's episode.  There were a couple bends of logic and hilariously compressed travel times (as the show has gotten more notorious about) but overall it was really solid, and I felt like the dialog was some of the best written the show has done in a while (post-books).

Apparently key plot points of the last two episodes have been leaked, so be careful out there on the intertubes.

simonsez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 776
  • Age: 33
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #126 on: May 06, 2019, 10:53:27 AM »
I read Jamie's brusqueness with Brienne more as a bit of self-hatred and maybe his feelings about her are stronger than he wants them to be... but he feels he doesn't "get" to pursue more than sex with her because of his bond with Cersei. He doesn't want to be gentler with Brienne because it'll be easier for her to get over him if he gives her more reason to see him as an asshole.
Hard to argue that, just wasn't my fave part to watch.

Side note: I think Euron knows the baby isn't his.  If it was, how would Tyrion know?  Maybe it was me projecting but they showed a look of Euron up on the parapet during/after Tyrion's speech and that's what I gleaned from his face - could be totally off base of course.  Now, even if he knew who knows that set of actions that might lead to.  He might not care and just claim it's his or he could become a turncoat, I really have no clue, just thought that was an interesting notion for him to be aware of.

Psychstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 799
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #127 on: May 06, 2019, 12:06:01 PM »
After last week my expectations are 0. Because of that yesterday's episode wasn't so bad. Westeros must have some bad-ass engineers working on those scorpions to make them perfectly accurate while mounted on rocking ships without kickback after each shot. Cercei showed her complete lack of compassion and yet didn't simply end the war when the majority of her enemies were in scorpion-range in front of the city gates. I think if they had made season 8 the Long Night and season 9 the war for the Iron Throne they wouldn't have made as many silly mistakes rushing the story to the end. Very unfortunate.

Yeah..I mean I was questioning why Cersei didn't just kill Tyrion, but yeah, why didn't she just mow ALL of them down? They had like 50 troops out in the open with no visible means of escape. It's not like Cersei cares about diplomacy or anything. Just shoot them!!! And why kill Missandei when she is the perfect hostage?? Dany's BFF! Keeping her as a hostage would make a lot more tactical sense than killing her, that is assuming you aren't going to freakin' kill Dany when you have the chance and just put an end to it all.

I think the missing factor for this option is that Drogon can be seen just chilling in the background outside the range of the ballistas. If they turn and unload on the ground troops the Unsullied could turtle up around Dany (who you have to kill to make this successful) and you risk pissing off the dragon and he can fry your entire siege team on the wall before they could reload.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 12:07:52 PM by Psychstache »

BicycleB

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1087
  • Location: Live Music Capital of the World
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #128 on: May 06, 2019, 12:43:24 PM »
I liked @Jon_Snow's comments upthread to effect that the show is a good to very good show, just not the "greatest of all time" show it could have been if George RR Martin wrote the second half. Avoiding anything that says "leak" or hints at discussion thereof, though!

I do agree that the dragon shootdown was weird in being so effective. Maybe it's part of the showrunners' attempts to add some old-style "See, we really can kill someone you think won't die" vibes. Still wondering if Tyrion's apparent shift into stupidity is leading to a reveal, or just a casualty of a plot-driven decision to de-emphasize his character development.

Having ignored spoilers, I can still indulge in off-base imaginings of the end:

Dany dies in her foolish attempt to seize the throne in overly harsh ways.
Arya sneaks into King's Landing to kill Cersei but fails, facing off against the Mountain and suffering a debilitating injury.
The Hound attacks the Mountain, who wounds him.
Gendry too has sneaked in to save Arya, but shifts to achieving her goal and kills Cersei himself.
While dying, Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
Jon announces that Gendry is the best heir to throne.
Gendry marries Sansa, joining the houses of Stark, Baratheon and Lannister.
Thus Sansa is the young queen in the prophecy.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 12:47:21 PM by BicycleB »

Gondolin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 567
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #129 on: May 06, 2019, 12:59:33 PM »
Quote
Tyrion's apparent shift into stupidity is leading to a reveal, or just a casualty of a plot-driven decision to de-emphasize his character development.

Iíd bet the latter. His narrative arc finished in S6 and now thereís nothing left to have him do but stand around making cheap quips.

Philociraptor

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
  • Age: 29
  • Location: DFW, TX
  • Eat. Sleep. Invest. Repeat.
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #130 on: May 06, 2019, 01:17:15 PM »
After last week my expectations are 0. Because of that yesterday's episode wasn't so bad. Westeros must have some bad-ass engineers working on those scorpions to make them perfectly accurate while mounted on rocking ships without kickback after each shot. Cercei showed her complete lack of compassion and yet didn't simply end the war when the majority of her enemies were in scorpion-range in front of the city gates. I think if they had made season 8 the Long Night and season 9 the war for the Iron Throne they wouldn't have made as many silly mistakes rushing the story to the end. Very unfortunate.

Yeah..I mean I was questioning why Cersei didn't just kill Tyrion, but yeah, why didn't she just mow ALL of them down? They had like 50 troops out in the open with no visible means of escape. It's not like Cersei cares about diplomacy or anything. Just shoot them!!! And why kill Missandei when she is the perfect hostage?? Dany's BFF! Keeping her as a hostage would make a lot more tactical sense than killing her, that is assuming you aren't going to freakin' kill Dany when you have the chance and just put an end to it all.

I think the missing factor for this option is that Drogon can be seen just chilling in the background outside the range of the ballistas. If they turn and unload on the ground troops the Unsullied could turtle up around Dany (who you have to kill to make this successful) and you risk pissing off the dragon and he can fry your entire siege team on the wall before they could reload.

The scorpions neck-shot a flying dragon from unsteady boats while having enough power to punch straight through multiple layers of ships. A few human bodies would've done nothing to stop them. Not to mention they seems pretty quick at reloading on the boats... It's just poor writing. Also sad how small they made King's Landing look compared to earlier in the series.

simonsez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 776
  • Age: 33
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #131 on: May 06, 2019, 01:30:25 PM »
Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."


ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 875
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #132 on: May 06, 2019, 01:48:10 PM »

!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."



The witch lied! Bam! Twisted again! Try to keep up. There's alot of twists here, a lot of twists!

I was so disappointed in this episode I found myself thinking that Cersei would be my hero if she opened fire on Dany's contingent right then and there... since it would be a welcome dose of logic and sense in an episode that was completely bereft of it to that point. Then she didn't even have Tyrion feathered after his weird and soul-less speech... I started hoping the Children of the Forest would make another night king who would straighten all this out.




BicycleB

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1087
  • Location: Live Music Capital of the World
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #133 on: May 06, 2019, 03:44:08 PM »
Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."

Well, these are legitimate points. I guess I have to assume that Maggy's prophecy discusses Cersei's illegitimate children vs Robert's own bastards, thereby contrasting the children that the king and queen have separately. Gendry isn't in the prophecy because he's the one child they have together!

Not sure about the Jamie part, just that for that some reason, Cersei hid Gendry. Gendry's always said his mother was blond and would sing to him. Maybe in an attempt to avoid the prophecy, Cersei hid the first baby, the one baby she originally had with Robert, and told Robert she had a miscarriage. But after the marriage soured, she consummated her love/lust with Jamie and had the three children we know of, giving them the advantages she could by raising them for the throne.

Perhaps at first she visited the baby in a tavern in disguise, which fits the story Gendry gave, but stopped as the chance of discovery rose? Or stopped when her other children were born? No idea if any of this is "true" in either the show or RR Martin's conception, just that I saw Gendry's story onscreen.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 03:48:11 PM by BicycleB »

FIRE Artist

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 563
  • Location: YEG
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #134 on: May 06, 2019, 04:34:13 PM »
Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."

Well, these are legitimate points. I guess I have to assume that Maggy's prophecy discusses Cersei's illegitimate children vs Robert's own bastards, thereby contrasting the children that the king and queen have separately. Gendry isn't in the prophecy because he's the one child they have together!

Not sure about the Jamie part, just that for that some reason, Cersei hid Gendry. Gendry's always said his mother was blond and would sing to him. Maybe in an attempt to avoid the prophecy, Cersei hid the first baby, the one baby she originally had with Robert, and told Robert she had a miscarriage. But after the marriage soured, she consummated her love/lust with Jamie and had the three children we know of, giving them the advantages she could by raising them for the throne.

Perhaps at first she visited the baby in a tavern in disguise, which fits the story Gendry gave, but stopped as the chance of discovery rose? Or stopped when her other children were born? No idea if any of this is "true" in either the show or RR Martin's conception, just that I saw Gendry's story onscreen.

I think that the scene about Gendryís mom being blond was to prove the truth of Nedís investigation into the hair colour of Robertís progeny.  All Baratheon spawn have dark hair, even when mated with blond women.

Cerseiís three children - gold will be their crown- they will all be blond and not Robertís.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 04:35:45 PM by FIRE Artist »

BicycleB

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1087
  • Location: Live Music Capital of the World
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #135 on: May 06, 2019, 04:37:38 PM »
Mere facts!

:)

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4052
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #136 on: May 06, 2019, 04:40:03 PM »
Cersei reveals that she is Gendry's mom.
!!??  That would be quite the twist!

So it was a legitimate child that Cersei bore but hid away?  Are you positing Jamie was jealous and that she faked a late-term miscarriage to Robert?  I feel like that would've been a part of what Maggy told her unless you think the witch was wrong.

"Third, Cersei asked if she and the king would have children. Maggy cryptically replied that the king would have 20 children, but Cersei would have only three. Cersei didn't think that made sense (not realizing that a king can have bastard children), but Maggy continued to say of her three children that gold would be their crowns, and gold their burial shrouds, implying that all of Cersei's children would predecease her."

Well, these are legitimate points. I guess I have to assume that Maggy's prophecy discusses Cersei's illegitimate children vs Robert's own bastards, thereby contrasting the children that the king and queen have separately. Gendry isn't in the prophecy because he's the one child they have together!

Not sure about the Jamie part, just that for that some reason, Cersei hid Gendry. Gendry's always said his mother was blond and would sing to him. Maybe in an attempt to avoid the prophecy, Cersei hid the first baby, the one baby she originally had with Robert, and told Robert she had a miscarriage. But after the marriage soured, she consummated her love/lust with Jamie and had the three children we know of, giving them the advantages she could by raising them for the throne.

Perhaps at first she visited the baby in a tavern in disguise, which fits the story Gendry gave, but stopped as the chance of discovery rose? Or stopped when her other children were born? No idea if any of this is "true" in either the show or RR Martin's conception, just that I saw Gendry's story onscreen.

I think that the scene about Gendryís mom being blond was to prove the truth of Nedís investigation into the hair colour of Robertís progeny.  All Baratheon spawn have dark hair, even when mated with blond women.

Cerseiís three children - gold will be their crown- they will all be blond and not Robertís.

I agree. It's the set-up to his looking at the book where he reads the names of all the Baratheon descendents, and notes how they all say "dark of hair" except for Joffrey.

redbirdfan

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #137 on: May 07, 2019, 12:32:49 AM »
Cersei had a scene when she was talking to Robert about the death of their "black-haired" son.  She also told Cat Stark about him when she visited Cat who was watching over Bran (who had just been pushed out of the window by Jaime at Cersei's command).  I thought she made it up until she brought it up in her conversation with Robert. 

I'm a little nervous about crossbow-wielding Bronn wandering around Winterfell with plenty of killing days left in him.  I'm not sure if Sansa is still on Cersei's kill list given Olenna Tyrell's  confession, but Ser Brienne seems like she will be distracted by her recent heartbreak.  I didn't think Bronn would take out Jaime or Tyrion, but he could hedge his bet by taking out Sansa.

I have no idea what will happen in KL.  I wouldn't be shocked if Arya and the Hound take out Cersei and the Mountain and I wouldn't be shocked if they were killed.  Wasn't the Dornish army waiting for Yara to pick them up when Yara was ambushed by Euron?  It seems odd that they would sit this one out after everything that happened with Elaria and the Sand Snakes and the history of the Lannisters, the Mountain and the Martells. 

What is the point of Bran at this time if he isn't being used for military strategy?  I don't know the parameters of his gift, but can't he "see" all of the Lannister military prep and then advise everyone accordingly, i.e., watch out for ships with scorpions around Dragonstone?  Wouldn't the same thing that allowed him to go back and see Rhaegar's wedding allow him to see the battle prep?  I hope they don't use him for some deus ex machina time traveling gimmick(s).

I still love GOT but this season feels rushed and underdeveloped...especially compared to all the time and detail we were given for each development in the earlier seasons.  I have no clue what's going to happen, but I have a feeling everyone will be scratching their heads in the end.

simonsez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 776
  • Age: 33
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #138 on: May 07, 2019, 09:04:16 AM »
What is the point of Bran at this time if he isn't being used for military strategy?  I don't know the parameters of his gift, but can't he "see" all of the Lannister military prep and then advise everyone accordingly, i.e., watch out for ships with scorpions around Dragonstone?  Wouldn't the same thing that allowed him to go back and see Rhaegar's wedding allow him to see the battle prep?  I hope they don't use him for some deus ex machina time traveling gimmick(s).
The treatment seems to be he uses the past and can relay that information but something about the future he seems to let it come to pass.  Maybe it's part of the unspoken 3ER code or something.  This is part of why it was weird in Episode 3 with him seemingly not doing anything but he knew where he had to be and what his sister was going to do, so he had to let it unfold.

Also, I don't know how much he cares about the Starks relative to other alive humans at the moment.  The Starks were pivotal in defeating the NK and his army (and coincidentally is/was his family) but I'm not convinced he really cares which humans have power over other humans moving forward now that the Long Night is (already) over.  On the other hand, he was adamant that Jon know his true parentage (when talking to Sam) - to what end or what Bran saw in the future regarding that nugget is anyone's guess, it could be beneficial to the Starks or maybe it was just better for Westeros overall.  Maybe he knew that Daenerys is going mad and needed to let things unfold the way they are.

doggyfizzle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #139 on: May 07, 2019, 09:53:17 AM »
I have no idea what will happen in KL.  I wouldn't be shocked if Arya and the Hound take out Cersei and the Mountain and I wouldn't be shocked if they were killed.  Wasn't the Dornish army waiting for Yara to pick them up when Yara was ambushed by Euron?  It seems odd that they would sit this one out after everything that happened with Elaria and the Sand Snakes and the history of the Lannisters, the Mountain and the Martells. 

The Martells (besides Arya) were my favorite characters in the books, and I'm baffled why they've been left out of this season.  Hopefully there is some resolution with them and Yara (rather than her just setting off to re-conquer the Iron Islands) making at least one more appearance, but I'm not holding my breath.

I could also see Arya, after killing Cersei with Jamie's face on, assuming power (momentarily) with Cersei's face while negotiating with Danerys about who will rule and establishing some sort of autonomy for the Starks.

Philociraptor

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
  • Age: 29
  • Location: DFW, TX
  • Eat. Sleep. Invest. Repeat.
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2019, 06:14:19 AM »
People are talking about how the show writing went sour when they ran out of book material, but I'm thinking it more went sour because they omitted book material. Euron's sorcery with the Dragon-binding horn, Victarion Greyjoy, fAegon and the Golden Company, Lady Stoneheart, Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven, Arienne Martell and the plot with Myrcella, etc. A lot of the show character's actions and motivations probably belong to those plots, but without those plots their actions and motivations are all over the place. Dany could have lost a dragon to Euron instead. There'd be another power at sea. Instead of 2 kingdoms in the show (North vs. KL) we'd have potentially 7 vibrant kingdoms. Tyrion wouldn't have had to act so stupidly to lose Dany's army over and over, instead parts of Westeros would have already fallen behind fAegon. Varys, who murders Kevin and Pycelle and has never really been "for the realm" in the books, would make much more sense. Cercei probably wasn't meant to last this long but the show viewers liked her so they kept her in, leaving them no choice but to make her the final enemy.

I'm still somewhat excited for the end of the show, but it helps me to think that the books are more akin to what the Maesters record as history, while the show is someone's drunk uncle telling a story at a wedding, leaving out key facts and details while sensationalizing random parts.

Feel free to ignore my random ramblings. It's pretty cool that book 1 (A Game of Thrones) is #2 in the Kindle store right now. If the show gets more people to read the books I'm all for it.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 06:19:15 AM by Philociraptor »

ReadySetMillionaire

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1009
  • Location: The Buckeye State
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2019, 10:48:40 AM »
Hey look, a GOT thread.

I suck at predictions with this show, so I'll just state my curmudgeonly opinion -- the biggest mistake of the producers, by a million miles, was reducing the number episodes in the last two seasons. I would argue it was the biggest mistake in television history. The show used to be tight as a knot; everything just seems so off now in terms of timing and, more importantly, motive. Now it's an Avengers-like mini-series.

The old seasons used to lay the seeds, take a couple plot twists, thoroughly develop the characters and their motives, and then the final episodes were a beautiful orgy of all these plot lines coming together without any plot holes. Seasons 7 and 8 just feel so rushed, and the characters completely lack motive for these huge decisions they are making.

Just from this last episode, Dany physically went from Winterfell to Dragonstone (and getting attacked there) to King's Landing and back to Dragonstone; she mentally went from loathing Jon to loving Jon to trying to deceive Jon to wanting to attack King's Landing ASAP to considering otherwise to nope let's attack King's Landing to let's offer a peace offering first. All of this in about a 45 minute period.

Stretch the season to its usual ten episodes and you could have shown her on ships having important dialogue with others about how she wants to rule, how she wants to handle the Jon Snow news, whether her attitude toward killing innocents has changed, on and on. Her time in Slaver's Bay let us really delve into her as a character. That's gone now.

You could say this for almost every aspect of the plot right now -- Cersei having roughly 3 or 4 scenes in four episodes of the final season is absolute madness; but they are so busy having Dany and the others travel all over Westeros that there's no time for arguably the third or fourth most important character in the show.

It's one thing for a comedy to get stale and die out; it's another for a show that was probably the best show on television to just go so...off. GOT went from arguably my top show of all time -- an all time great -- to an Avengers like mini-series. Seasons 1-6 rank probably in my top 3, but the show as a whole is probably barely in my top 10 now.

I didn't even get to watching this last week's show until yesterday. And the fact that I hardly care who ends up on the Iron Throne tells you all you need to know.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 10:54:01 AM by ReadySetMillionaire »

simonsez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 776
  • Age: 33
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2019, 12:18:45 PM »
Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven
Yeah, it's hard not to be at least somewhat of a book wanker when all they had to do was add a fake blotch to the 3ER's cheek.  That's what, 20 min of makeup for a character we saw a handful of times?  I just don't see the downside there of tipping the cap to book fans (without really altering anything for the show-only people) by acknowledging Show!3ER really is a super interesting Targaryen with even more backstory than the other famous old Targaryen of the Night's Watch that also had a brother who was king.  Then again, books will always be richer so I just have to accept that and technically the show never said he wasn't Bloodraven. 

That said, there are other times where I'm more than alright with the changes and are just enjoying their interpretation.  For instance, Charles Dance and Maisie Williams acting together at Harrenhal (rather than Roose Bolton) was fantastic!

Gondolin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 567
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2019, 02:42:52 PM »
Quote
I would argue it was the biggest mistake in television history.

Have it agree. Really feels like the show runners knew they didnít have a solid ending and decided to get things over with as fast as possible so they could scuttle off to direct Star Wars spin-offs.

I donít know that a cohesive conclusion to a story with 12 protagonists is even possible but, judging by the reactions to the last 2 episodes, the finale will be DOA.

v8rx7guy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1239
  • Location: Bellingham, WA
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #144 on: May 08, 2019, 02:53:14 PM »
Quote
I would argue it was the biggest mistake in television history.

Have it agree. Really feels like the show runners knew they didnít have a solid ending and decided to get things over with as fast as possible so they could scuttle off to direct Star Wars spin-offs.

I donít know that a cohesive conclusion to a story with 12 protagonists is even possible but, judging by the reactions to the last 2 episodes, the finale will be DOA.

From a profit standpoint, I don't think that people are cancelling HBO halfway through the season because of it.  So I doubt HBO is ever going to consider it a mistake.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3327
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #145 on: May 10, 2019, 01:22:29 PM »
Didn't read all the replies...

But my disappointment is immeasurable.  The writing has been getting lazy and bad since they surpassed source material, but Jesus fucking Christ is season 8 bad.  I still loved GOT through season 7 and would place it as my all time favorite show, but season 8 is one of the worst pieces of garbage I've ever seen.  They are going to go full Dexter on us. My prediction is that Jon Snow goes north of the wall to be a lumberjack and that's how it ends (not really, but I'm pretty sure that would be more satisfying that whatever garbage they cooked up). A decade of build up and the white walkers are done just like that, with the worst tactical plan I've ever seen, cheap pandering to fans.  None of it makes any fucking sense! I would have failed my 9th grade creative writing class if I would have turned in a garbage nonsensical story with as many plot holes and oversights as they have.  How does the biggest and most expensive tv show ever get way with this?

I have definitely died a little inside the last couple of weeks.  I am not looking forward to the remaining 2 episodes.  I will finish them because I've invested so much already and want to see it through, but my expectations have been completely readjusted to expect nothing.  My expectations have certainly been subverted.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3327
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #146 on: May 10, 2019, 01:27:01 PM »
I am also holding out hope that GRRM has finished, or is close to finishing the story and is just keeping it under wraps.  He saw what hacks D&D are and has been distancing himself from the show for several seasons.  D&D have more than enough rope, and they are hanging themselves.  My hope is after it's all said and done GRRM will release the books and say something to the effect that he disowns everything after season 4 and is in no way associated with those jokers who ruined his story, and we end up with a proper ending. 

A man can dream...

Epor

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • One day at the time
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #147 on: May 10, 2019, 02:27:23 PM »
I am also holding out hope that GRRM has finished, or is close to finishing the story and is just keeping it under wraps.  He saw what hacks D&D are and has been distancing himself from the show for several seasons.  D&D have more than enough rope, and they are hanging themselves.  My hope is after it's all said and done GRRM will release the books and say something to the effect that he disowns everything after season 4 and is in no way associated with those jokers who ruined his story, and we end up with a proper ending. 

A man can dream...

https://www.theonion.com/george-r-r-martin-promises-fans-the-winds-of-winter-1826115223

I personally have no idea how is going to end, and I am prepared to about any ending, including:
"And thatís why, even today, theyíre known as Branny Smith apples. The End." - (Stole this one from another forum.)






wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #148 on: May 10, 2019, 02:43:29 PM »
I am also holding out hope that GRRM has finished, or is close to finishing the story and is just keeping it under wraps.  He saw what hacks D&D are and has been distancing himself from the show for several seasons.  D&D have more than enough rope, and they are hanging themselves.  My hope is after it's all said and done GRRM will release the books and say something to the effect that he disowns everything after season 4 and is in no way associated with those jokers who ruined his story, and we end up with a proper ending. 

A man can dream...

https://www.theonion.com/george-r-r-martin-promises-fans-the-winds-of-winter-1826115223

I personally have no idea how is going to end, and I am prepared to about any ending, including:
"And thatís why, even today, theyíre known as Branny Smith apples. The End." - (Stole this one from another forum.)

The Onion is great.  Seriously, though, I wonder just how close GRRM  ACTUALLY is to finishing that book (which wouldn't hypothetically be the last book in the series anyway).  And re: holding out hopes that the GRRM's version will be dramatically better, I dunno.  I loved the first 3 books, thought book 4 was ok, and then thought the last book was pretty bad and could have been edited down by about half.  And Tyrion still hadn't met Dany by the end of it!  In all honesty, I have preferred almost every choice that the show runners have made that departed from the books up until this season, where I agree things have gone downhill somewhat.

Cromacster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1696
  • Location: Minnesnowta
Re: Game of Thrones is back!!
« Reply #149 on: May 12, 2019, 08:40:45 PM »
Holy Shit.