Author Topic: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)  (Read 8848 times)

intellectsucks

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Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« on: August 22, 2018, 11:57:31 AM »
All this anti-vaccine bullshit has made it much more difficult to have a normal medical conversation with pediatricians about vaccines. Here's what I mean:

Normal conversation about treatment
"Well, Mr Sucks, the treatment I recommend for your childs condition is X."
"OK Doc, what are potential side effects? Are any of them severe? What should we do if we experience any of those side effects? Are there any alternative treatments? What are the pros and cons of those treatments? Why are you recommending this treatment over others?"
"Those are excellent questions Mr Sucks!" The doctor says with a smile "Allow me to answer them in a calm and informative manner."

Vaccine Conversation
"Well Mr Sucks, we're going to be giving your child the following vaccines."
"OK Doc, what are potential side effects? Are any of them severe? What should we do if we experience any of those side effects? Are there any that you don't consider necessary? If you don't consider them necessary what is your reasoning for still recommending them?"
Doctor's face tenses up and her body language becomes defensive. "Vaccines are extremely safe and the diseases they prevent are much worse. Don't listen to what you read on Facebook. Here's stacks of pamphlets and flyers about why you should vaccinate your children!"
I wanna say "Geez lady, calm down!! I didn't say we'd rather protect our kid from disease by covering her in Crystal jewelry!! I just want to be an informed patient.

I understand the doctor's reaction, since she's probably tired of defending a safe medical treatment from all the hucksterism and quackery out there. I'm just frustrated that questions and concerns that would be considered reasonable in regards to any other medical procedure are suddenly lightning rods because a bunch of idiots and assholes are out there pushing a bunch of bullshit.

Slee_stack

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2018, 12:43:56 PM »
I have an anti-vaxxer in the family.  I go cross eyed when the vaccine topic comes up.  I say nothing and extricate myself from the vicinity ASAP.

onlykelsey

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2018, 12:53:41 PM »
Agreed that the response the medical industry gives is often unhelpful.  I vaccinate my 18 month old on the normal CDC schedule (or a week late if he has a cold or something), but there are fair questions.  I do think there are some valid questions regarding vaccinations that we sometimes leave no space for.  For example, other advanced countries have come to consensus around a slightly different vaccination schedule.... which leads me to wonder if maybe theirs is better.  I'm not withholding vaccines from my toddler while I figure it out, of course, but it seems not crazy to ask the question. https://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h5966/infographic

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 01:07:35 PM »
I have a friend with an autistic child.  She went full on bat-crap crazy anti-vaxx after he was diagnosed.

Freedomin5

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 07:35:59 PM »
Here’s how you talk to your doctor:

"Well, Mr Sucks, the treatment I recommend for your childs condition is X."
"OK Doc, that sounds good. Let’s go ahead and do it.  what are potential side effects? Are any of them severe? What should we do if we experience any of those side effects? Are there any alternative treatments? What are the pros and cons of those treatments? Why are you recommending this treatment over others?"
"Those are excellent questions Mr Sucks!" The doctor says with a smile "Allow me to answer them in a calm and informative manner."

Doctors are service providers and humans who are trying to help, and sometimes it’s nice to get a bit of validation. (Ask me how I know) The way you had it phrased could be misinterpreted as being antagonistic.

intellectsucks

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 07:54:24 PM »
Here’s how you talk to your doctor:

"Well, Mr Sucks, the treatment I recommend for your childs condition is X."
"OK Doc, that sounds good. Let’s go ahead and do it.  what are potential side effects? Are any of them severe? What should we do if we experience any of those side effects? Are there any alternative treatments? What are the pros and cons of those treatments? Why are you recommending this treatment over others?"
"Those are excellent questions Mr Sucks!" The doctor says with a smile "Allow me to answer them in a calm and informative manner."

Doctors are service providers and humans who are trying to help, and sometimes it’s nice to get a bit of validation. (Ask me how I know) The way you had it phrased could be misinterpreted as being antagonistic.

I'll respectfully disagree with your approach to how to talk to doctors.  As you noted, doctors are humans who can be exhausted, distracted, forgetful, lazy, ill informed, just plain wrong, or have any other human imperfections. I will always do my best to never agree to any course of treatment without being fully informed about that treatment and all other potential treatment options. Seeing as I am paying for their service, I'm not very concerned with whether or not they feel I'm antagonistic.

Freedomin5

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2018, 03:15:56 AM »
Here’s how you talk to your doctor:

"Well, Mr Sucks, the treatment I recommend for your childs condition is X."
"OK Doc, that sounds good. Let’s go ahead and do it.  what are potential side effects? Are any of them severe? What should we do if we experience any of those side effects? Are there any alternative treatments? What are the pros and cons of those treatments? Why are you recommending this treatment over others?"
"Those are excellent questions Mr Sucks!" The doctor says with a smile "Allow me to answer them in a calm and informative manner."

Doctors are service providers and humans who are trying to help, and sometimes it’s nice to get a bit of validation. (Ask me how I know) The way you had it phrased could be misinterpreted as being antagonistic.

I'll respectfully disagree with your approach to how to talk to doctors.  As you noted, doctors are humans who can be exhausted, distracted, forgetful, lazy, ill informed, just plain wrong, or have any other human imperfections. I will always do my best to never agree to any course of treatment without being fully informed about that treatment and all other potential treatment options. Seeing as I am paying for their service, I'm not very concerned with whether or not they feel I'm antagonistic.

If you’re talking about vaccines, and you were going to do them anyway, then why not tell the doctor you plan to do them? Obviously asking about potential side effects so you can make an informed decision and so that you know how to deal with the side effects should they arise.

I’m saying it doesn’t hurt to increase agreeableness and be polite when asking for information. It could be a cultural thing though, because I’ve noticed that in some cultures it is okay to be very direct, whereas in other cultures it would be seen as being confrontational and bordering on rude. “I’m paying for their service so I don’t care if I come across as being antagonistic” is normal thinking in China, but would not go over so well in Canada, for example.

hops

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2018, 08:39:51 AM »
An anti-vaxxer relative tried to use my sister's baby shower as an opportunity to spread misinformation. When she was shut down by others, she moved on to nonsensical dietary advice instead. It's never too early for these overly entitled, woefully ignorant ghouls to start shaming and scaring parents-to-be.

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2018, 09:59:06 AM »
All ranting about anti-vaxxers is approved. It is approved because this is the outcome of the anti-vaxxer movement:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45246049

As a working scientist, it is viscerally bothersome to me in part because the studies also show that (as a population) showing these people facts about the safety of vaccines and how vaccinate rates play out through herd immunity only makes them double down on their beliefs. I would be fine with required immunizations for a core set of illnesses with medical exceptions for those with immune issues, etc (because there is a subset of the population who do not tolerate vaccines well... which is ironically part of why we need to maintain high immunization rates).

Barring more effective regulation, I have come to the conclusion that the most effective method is inducing a social/emotional cost to anti-vaccination stances. The trick is how to do that without just being assholes.

Kris

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2018, 10:29:48 AM »
All ranting about anti-vaxxers is approved. It is approved because this is the outcome of the anti-vaxxer movement:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45246049

As a working scientist, it is viscerally bothersome to me in part because the studies also show that (as a population) showing these people facts about the safety of vaccines and how vaccinate rates play out through herd immunity only makes them double down on their beliefs. I would be fine with required immunizations for a core set of illnesses with medical exceptions for those with immune issues, etc (because there is a subset of the population who do not tolerate vaccines well... which is ironically part of why we need to maintain high immunization rates).

Barring more effective regulation, I have come to the conclusion that the most effective method is inducing a social/emotional cost to anti-vaccination stances. The trick is how to do that without just being assholes.

I wish there was a large island that we could require all anti-vaxxers to go to with their families so they could all live together and not affect the rest of us with their bullshit.

GuitarStv

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2018, 11:09:40 AM »
All ranting about anti-vaxxers is approved. It is approved because this is the outcome of the anti-vaxxer movement:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45246049

As a working scientist, it is viscerally bothersome to me in part because the studies also show that (as a population) showing these people facts about the safety of vaccines and how vaccinate rates play out through herd immunity only makes them double down on their beliefs. I would be fine with required immunizations for a core set of illnesses with medical exceptions for those with immune issues, etc (because there is a subset of the population who do not tolerate vaccines well... which is ironically part of why we need to maintain high immunization rates).

Barring more effective regulation, I have come to the conclusion that the most effective method is inducing a social/emotional cost to anti-vaccination stances. The trick is how to do that without just being assholes.

I wish there was a large island that we could require all anti-vaxxers to go to with their families so they could all live together and not affect the rest of us with their bullshit.

Given the high likelihood of a plague wiping most of them out, you wouldn't even need a very large island . . .

:P

Loren Ver

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2018, 11:21:12 AM »
All ranting about anti-vaxxers is approved. It is approved because this is the outcome of the anti-vaxxer movement:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45246049

snip*

Barring more effective regulation, I have come to the conclusion that the most effective method is inducing a social/emotional cost to anti-vaccination stances. The trick is how to do that without just being assholes.

I don't have time to look it up right now*, but I think Australia(?) passed a law where people that did not vaccine could not get child tax credits anymore.  The anti-vax groups dried up quite a bit overnight with that one.  That is one way....

*Sorry, I can't source this right now, hopefully someone has info to share.

LV

Kris

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2018, 11:25:48 AM »
All ranting about anti-vaxxers is approved. It is approved because this is the outcome of the anti-vaxxer movement:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45246049

snip*

Barring more effective regulation, I have come to the conclusion that the most effective method is inducing a social/emotional cost to anti-vaccination stances. The trick is how to do that without just being assholes.

I don't have time to look it up right now*, but I think Australia(?) passed a law where people that did not vaccine could not get child tax credits anymore.  The anti-vax groups dried up quite a bit overnight with that one.  That is one way....

*Sorry, I can't source this right now, hopefully someone has info to share.

LV

Yep. That would never work in the States, though, because freedumb.

intellectsucks

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2018, 11:38:19 AM »
Here’s how you talk to your doctor:

"Well, Mr Sucks, the treatment I recommend for your childs condition is X."
"OK Doc, that sounds good. Let’s go ahead and do it.  what are potential side effects? Are any of them severe? What should we do if we experience any of those side effects? Are there any alternative treatments? What are the pros and cons of those treatments? Why are you recommending this treatment over others?"
"Those are excellent questions Mr Sucks!" The doctor says with a smile "Allow me to answer them in a calm and informative manner."

Doctors are service providers and humans who are trying to help, and sometimes it’s nice to get a bit of validation. (Ask me how I know) The way you had it phrased could be misinterpreted as being antagonistic.

I'll respectfully disagree with your approach to how to talk to doctors.  As you noted, doctors are humans who can be exhausted, distracted, forgetful, lazy, ill informed, just plain wrong, or have any other human imperfections. I will always do my best to never agree to any course of treatment without being fully informed about that treatment and all other potential treatment options. Seeing as I am paying for their service, I'm not very concerned with whether or not they feel I'm antagonistic.

If you’re talking about vaccines, and you were going to do them anyway, then why not tell the doctor you plan to do them? Obviously asking about potential side effects so you can make an informed decision and so that you know how to deal with the side effects should they arise.

I’m saying it doesn’t hurt to increase agreeableness and be polite when asking for information. It could be a cultural thing though, because I’ve noticed that in some cultures it is okay to be very direct, whereas in other cultures it would be seen as being confrontational and bordering on rude. “I’m paying for their service so I don’t care if I come across as being antagonistic” is normal thinking in China, but would not go over so well in Canada, for example.
Yeah, I’m fully aware that I could easily be perceived as a difficult patient (or relative).  I try to be as pleasant and non-confrontational as possible while doing so though, usually using humor or self deprecation [is this a word?] to ease tension (“I know I’m probably being a problem patient doc but…”).  However one of my core principles when dealing with the medical profession is that NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO PERFORM ANY TYPE OF TREATMENT ON MYSELF OR MY FAMILY WITHOUT OUR FULLY INFORMED CONSENT.  I’ve experienced and heard of too many medical mistakes, oversights and unjustified treatment recommendations to take the doctor’s opinion without hearing their justification first.  Some examples:
-A doctor recommended a moderately invasive and expensive procedure for a family member with a very mild condition because it had a very high chance of curing the condition (I believe they said 90%).  After asking what other options for treatment there were, the doctor told us about a much less invasive and expensive treatment option, that also had a high chance of curing the condition (around 85%), but also had a far lower chance of negative side effects.  He wasn’t really able to give us a solid justification for why he recommended the first option instead of the second, or why he only presented us with the first option initially.  We decided on the second treatment option.
-While being tested for allergies, the doctor recommended testing for food allergies, despite the fact that I have never experienced any symptoms of food allergies.  After asking the doctor for her justification for the additional testing despite the fact that I was asymptomatic, she said “We just like to be thorough.”  After asking about the additional discomfort, cost and risk of false positives with the additional testing, I opted to not test for food allergies.
-A friend’s father went to his family doctor for an ailment.  The doctor diagnosed it as a mild condition and recommended bed rest.  Shortly afterwards, the father was hospitalized for the same ailment.  While in the hospital room, my friend read her father’s chart, which included the exam notes and diagnosis from his previous doctor.  Those notes referenced her father’s ovaries (he was not trans).
-My Uncle J with epilepsy has been prescribed a basketful of different medications to treat his epilepsy and other related issues and injuries.  Over the last few years, his personality and cognition have changed for the worse.  My Uncle E goes with him to a doctors appointment and says that he thinks that Uncle J is taking too many medications (all of which were prescribed by various doctors) and it’s affecting his personality.  The doctor reviews the medications and agrees.  He recommends cutting out half (!!!!) of those medications.  Uncle J experiences instantaneous improvement in his personality and cognition.
-While my mother’s fiancé was in the hospital during his cancer treatment, a nurse started replacing his I.V. medication.  After my mother asked about the medication, she informed the nurse that her fiancé could not take this medication as it could react to other medications he was taking in a very serious, potentially fatal way.  The nurse told her that the doctor ordered it and was aware of any complications.  My mother told the nurse that she could not administer that medication until the doctor came into the hospital room and discussed it with them.  The nurse gets all huffy and goes to get the doctor.  The doctor comes in all huffy asking what the problem is.  My mother tells him that the medication can react in a serious way with another medication her fiancé is taking.  The doctor consults the chart, realizes that my mother is correct and says he’s decided to prescribe a different medication.
These experiences and many others have taught me to make sure that the doctor’s reasons for every recommended treatment are sound, informed and the best possible choice given the circumstances BEFORE AUTHORIZING THAT TREATMENT.  I understand that this can seem confrontational, and I do my best to minimize that, but that discomfort at being confrontational will never override my responsibility to make sure that myself and my family are being treated in ways that are medically necessary and correct.
And now I have officially done a rant within a rant…..

scottish

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2018, 07:30:54 PM »
Antivaxxers are the reason there's no vaccine available for lyme disease even though one was developed in the 90s.

Their island should be infested with lyme positive ticks.

Kris

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2018, 07:33:44 PM »
Antivaxxers are the reason there's no vaccine available for lyme disease even though one was developed in the 90s.

Their island should be infested with lyme positive ticks.

Ye'll get no argument from me, laddie.

elliha

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2018, 03:44:58 AM »
I am pro-vaccines in general but I have been lied to when I asked about side effects and efficiency for vaccines by a nurse who seemed to believe my question meant I was anti-vaccines. The only thing that made me feel was that they wanted me to vaccinate no matter what and if I really had been against vaccines I think I would just be more skeptical by such behavior. If she had taken the time to explain why the vaccine is still to be preferred to not vaccinating despite this side effect I would have felt much more at ease and proven to me that they do take this seriously. I think that any even slightly incorrect information about vaccines is only doing anti-vaxxers a favor. Many of them believe it is a conspiracy so a doctor or nurse lying is only going to help "prove" this to them.

Like intellectsucks I come from a family where people have been badly treated by doctors and been given the wrong treatment at times so I do need a lot of information before accepting a treatment and I do demand that doctors give the whole picture especially with something like vaccines as this is actually treating a currently healthy person for a disease he or she may never get. Vaccines need to be very safe or the disease they are preventing needs to so severe that the risk of a side effect is still worth it. For the vaccines currently in the Swedish program I think that they fulfill these criteria and I have gladly vaccinated my kids. I have not chosen to give vaccines for the diseases not included but if my son has not had chicken pox by the time he is 12 I will give him that vaccine. My daughter has already had the disease so she will not get the vaccine. Any other vaccine will be given if necessary say if we travel to a country with higher numbers of a disease than Sweden or if a disease becomes more common we would vaccinate against too.

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2018, 12:39:03 PM »
I am pro-vaccines in general

Vaccines need to be very safe or the disease they are preventing needs to so severe that the risk of a side effect is still worth it. For the vaccines currently in the Swedish program I think that they fulfill these criteria and I have gladly vaccinated my kids. I have not chosen to give vaccines for the diseases not included but if my son has not had chicken pox by the time he is 12 I will give him that vaccine. My daughter has already had the disease so she will not get the vaccine. Any other vaccine will be given if necessary say if we travel to a country with higher numbers of a disease than Sweden or if a disease becomes more common we would vaccinate against too.
Why are you delaying chicken pox vacinne (Varicella)? In my country its standard to get the shot now; alongside mumps and measles. I wish it was around when I was a child, I hated having chickenpox.

From CDC
"Chickenpox used to be very common in the United States. In the early 1990s, an average of 4 million people got varicella, 10,500 to 13,000 were hospitalized (range, 8,000 to 18,000), and 100 to 150 died each year. In the 1990s, the highest rate of varicella was reported in preschool-aged children.

Each year, more than 3.5 million cases of varicella, 9,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths are prevented by varicella vaccination in the United States.

...vaccinated children are less likely to become infected with wild-type chickenpox virus, which is more likely to reactivate as shingles compared to attenuated vaccine virus."

elliha

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2018, 01:21:29 PM »
I am pro-vaccines in general

Vaccines need to be very safe or the disease they are preventing needs to so severe that the risk of a side effect is still worth it. For the vaccines currently in the Swedish program I think that they fulfill these criteria and I have gladly vaccinated my kids. I have not chosen to give vaccines for the diseases not included but if my son has not had chicken pox by the time he is 12 I will give him that vaccine. My daughter has already had the disease so she will not get the vaccine. Any other vaccine will be given if necessary say if we travel to a country with higher numbers of a disease than Sweden or if a disease becomes more common we would vaccinate against too.
Why are you delaying chicken pox vacinne (Varicella)? In my country its standard to get the shot now; alongside mumps and measles. I wish it was around when I was a child, I hated having chickenpox.

From CDC
"Chickenpox used to be very common in the United States. In the early 1990s, an average of 4 million people got varicella, 10,500 to 13,000 were hospitalized (range, 8,000 to 18,000), and 100 to 150 died each year. In the 1990s, the highest rate of varicella was reported in preschool-aged children.

Each year, more than 3.5 million cases of varicella, 9,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths are prevented by varicella vaccination in the United States.

...vaccinated children are less likely to become infected with wild-type chickenpox virus, which is more likely to reactivate as shingles compared to attenuated vaccine virus."

It is not given at all in my country so I am actually giving an extra one.

intellectsucks

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2018, 02:21:58 PM »
PrairieStache, the statistics you cited mean that Varicella has a.0045 chance of landing you in the hospital and .0000375 chance of being fatal.  Compare that to the lowest estimate of risk of death from a colonoscopy (a procedure that is astonishingly safe) at .007.  Chickenpox is an extremely mild condition, in my opinion less severe than any cold or flu.  I personally chose to vaccinate my children for varicella (I also think it might be required by public schools in my area), but I wouldn’t think anything of a parent choosing not to, especially since you can now get vaccinated for the worst impact of the disease (shingles) later in life.  The vaccine does come with extremely rare risks of side effects such as meningitis, though I wasn’t able to find numbers of how often they occur.  I imagine they’re also vanishingly small, but the common side effects are a pain to deal with as well: fever, swelling, rashes, irritability, etc.
Another example: for years and years doctors told me to get the flu vaccine.  I had a small chance of contracting the flu; if I did contract it, my risk of severe complications was extremely low; I absolutely hate needles; I ran a risk of getting flu symptoms anyway; the vaccine only prevents in the flu in the 30-75% range anyway.  Not worth the hassle for me.  Later on when my wife was pregnant, I got one because the risk of severe complications to her and my newborn went way up.
This discussion actually encapsulates my frustration with vaccine conversations because of anti-vaxxers: they’ve made running a cost/benefit analysis on vaccines seem unreasonable.  I made a cost benefit analysis on the varicella vaccine and decided getting it was the right choice for my kids; elliha ran the same analysis and came to a different conclusion.  To me they’re both reasonable, but anti vaxxers have stigmatized any decision against any vaccininating.

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2018, 03:57:51 PM »
PrairieStache, the statistics you cited mean that Varicella has a.0045 chance of landing you in the hospital and .0000375 chance of being fatal.  Compare that to the lowest estimate of risk of death from a colonoscopy (a procedure that is astonishingly safe) at .007.  Chickenpox is an extremely mild condition, in my opinion less severe than any cold or flu.  I personally chose to vaccinate my children for varicella (I also think it might be required by public schools in my area), but I wouldn’t think anything of a parent choosing not to, especially since you can now get vaccinated for the worst impact of the disease (shingles) later in life.  The vaccine does come with extremely rare risks of side effects such as meningitis, though I wasn’t able to find numbers of how often they occur.  I imagine they’re also vanishingly small, but the common side effects are a pain to deal with as well: fever, swelling, rashes, irritability, etc.
Another example: for years and years doctors told me to get the flu vaccine.  I had a small chance of contracting the flu; if I did contract it, my risk of severe complications was extremely low; I absolutely hate needles; I ran a risk of getting flu symptoms anyway; the vaccine only prevents in the flu in the 30-75% range anyway.  Not worth the hassle for me.  Later on when my wife was pregnant, I got one because the risk of severe complications to her and my newborn went way up.
This discussion actually encapsulates my frustration with vaccine conversations because of anti-vaxxers: they’ve made running a cost/benefit analysis on vaccines seem unreasonable.  I made a cost benefit analysis on the varicella vaccine and decided getting it was the right choice for my kids; elliha ran the same analysis and came to a different conclusion.  To me they’re both reasonable, but anti vaxxers have stigmatized any decision against any vaccininating.
I didn't disagree with Eliha, just an open ended question wondering about the thought process behind delaying vacination. Specifically, the choice to get it but at a later date unless her child contacts the disease.

You speculate that Eliha has done a cost/benefit anaylsis, such as you did. To that end, what are the costs associated with caring for a child under 12 with chickenpox? Typically the disease lasts 7-10 days and requires a parent or guardian to take time off work (Elihas and her husband work). It requires ibuprofen for pain, calamine or lotion for itching and that's about the total that I can tell ($20?). Is there more costs then that? I understand the vaccination costs $150, is it cheaper to skip the vaccine?

I did not do a cost benefit analysis, I just did a benefit analysis, my kid wouldn't be sick for 10 days. Can you help me with typical costs? Since it was free for me, I saved money, just on the calamine lotion that I'm avoiding.

This is your chance to teach me. I'm not trying to debate vaccination, you said you did a cost analysis and I'm interested in how that works, I don't have all the costs, I need your help.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2018, 04:31:35 PM »
My experience is that the second kind of response comes from doctors whether we're talking about any medical treatment, not just vaccines. They don't like to be questioned.

Unfortunately, medical schools do little work on bedside manner, and on treating a patient as a person rather than a series of symptoms on case study notes. So the doctors have only whatever social skills they started with. Combine this with short consults (they're often paid by consult, not by the hour, given them an incentive to pump people through quickly; and if paid by the hour are usually at some place where they're understaffed and rushed all the time) and you get some rather dismissive behaviour from quite a lot of doctors.

By contrast, alternative medicine is of course a load of old bollocks; but they listen to you. An old friend of mine went to a naturopath and had a 45' consult. I have never in my life had a 45' consult with a doctor of any kind, and I've been hospitalised with pneumonia and seen my two children come into the world - midwives brought them into it. This taking time and listening that alternative medicine practitioners do is I think a large part of alternative medicine's appeal, and is something proper medicine could learn from.

The anti-vaxxers form little communities where people listen to each-other.

It's like my job of being a personal trainer; the personal is actually more important than the trainer, since if you don't get along and they don't trust you, they won't listen to your training advice. The saying is cheesey but true: people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Obviously doctors can't care about all of their hundreds of patients, it'd destroy them. But some social skills would teach them to at least fake it well, like the alternative medicine goons.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 04:34:18 PM by Kyle Schuant »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2018, 04:50:25 PM »
Anti-vaxxers should have their children taken away for child abuse, because that's what a person is doing when they refuse to do simple things that would protect their children from getting easily preventable diseases.

wenchsenior

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2018, 05:01:17 PM »
Personally, as long as we are marooning these people on an island with ticks, I'd like to also put all the deniers of anthropogenic climate change there. Hopefully the island is only a few feet above sea level.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2018, 05:40:06 PM »
Anti-vaxxers should have their children taken away for child abuse, because -
I don't believe comments like this are helpful. They simply lead to more defensive head-in-the-sand sort of thinking.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2018, 06:05:16 PM »
I had chicken pox as a kid, I still have the pock marks on my face 60 years later.  And a week of misery I remember vividly.  Vaccinate!  I was sicker with measles, but more miserable with chicken pox.

Doctors are willing to discuss scheduling.  Same for vets.  I got my dog vaccinated for rabies in the fall and everything else in the spring when she went in for her heartworm test.  But basically I think doctors and vets like to get the vaccinations done so they know they are done, not hope that the client comes back for the rest.

It is a bit different in Canada, childhood vaccinations are part of regular medical care.  But we still have anti-vaxers.   

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2018, 06:19:13 PM »
I had chicken pox as a kid, I still have the pock marks on my face 60 years later.  And a week of misery I remember vividly.  Vaccinate!  I was sicker with measles, but more miserable with chicken pox.

Doctors are willing to discuss scheduling.  Same for vets.  I got my dog vaccinated for rabies in the fall and everything else in the spring when she went in for her heartworm test.  But basically I think doctors and vets like to get the vaccinations done so they know they are done, not hope that the client comes back for the rest.

It is a bit different in Canada, childhood vaccinations are part of regular medical care.  But we still have anti-vaxers.

having known many doctors and veterinarians, the recommendations are generally based on the best available science at the time. As our understanding increases, some schedules have shifted. I think doctors are willing to discuss scheduling because it is better to have them do that than freak out and get none. Honestly, the level of bullshit that doctors have to put up with from patients is pretty astounding. Imagine if several times a day a random person at your job told you (incorrectly) how to do your job based on random google searches and trusting that over the literally years of intensive training? Do doctors make mistakes, and is it okay to ask for information? Yes! I have those conversations reasonably with medical providers routinely and have never had a bad experience with the questions.

GuitarStv

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2018, 06:26:56 PM »
My experience is that the second kind of response comes from doctors whether we're talking about any medical treatment, not just vaccines. They don't like to be questioned.

Unfortunately, medical schools do little work on bedside manner, and on treating a patient as a person rather than a series of symptoms on case study notes. So the doctors have only whatever social skills they started with. Combine this with short consults (they're often paid by consult, not by the hour, given them an incentive to pump people through quickly; and if paid by the hour are usually at some place where they're understaffed and rushed all the time) and you get some rather dismissive behaviour from quite a lot of doctors.

By contrast, alternative medicine is of course a load of old bollocks; but they listen to you. An old friend of mine went to a naturopath and had a 45' consult. I have never in my life had a 45' consult with a doctor of any kind, and I've been hospitalised with pneumonia and seen my two children come into the world - midwives brought them into it. This taking time and listening that alternative medicine practitioners do is I think a large part of alternative medicine's appeal, and is something proper medicine could learn from.

These are valid points.

Western medicine seems to be based around impersonal people in uncomfortable settings ordering patients around.  I do wonder if people who believe in holistic garbage would be more likely to consider real medicine as an alternative if getting it wasn't so often a miserable experience.

intellectsucks

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2018, 06:53:47 PM »
PrairieStache, the statistics you cited mean that Varicella has a.0045 chance of landing you in the hospital and .0000375 chance of being fatal.  Compare that to the lowest estimate of risk of death from a colonoscopy (a procedure that is astonishingly safe) at .007.  Chickenpox is an extremely mild condition, in my opinion less severe than any cold or flu.  I personally chose to vaccinate my children for varicella (I also think it might be required by public schools in my area), but I wouldn’t think anything of a parent choosing not to, especially since you can now get vaccinated for the worst impact of the disease (shingles) later in life.  The vaccine does come with extremely rare risks of side effects such as meningitis, though I wasn’t able to find numbers of how often they occur.  I imagine they’re also vanishingly small, but the common side effects are a pain to deal with as well: fever, swelling, rashes, irritability, etc.
Another example: for years and years doctors told me to get the flu vaccine.  I had a small chance of contracting the flu; if I did contract it, my risk of severe complications was extremely low; I absolutely hate needles; I ran a risk of getting flu symptoms anyway; the vaccine only prevents in the flu in the 30-75% range anyway.  Not worth the hassle for me.  Later on when my wife was pregnant, I got one because the risk of severe complications to her and my newborn went way up.
This discussion actually encapsulates my frustration with vaccine conversations because of anti-vaxxers: they’ve made running a cost/benefit analysis on vaccines seem unreasonable.  I made a cost benefit analysis on the varicella vaccine and decided getting it was the right choice for my kids; elliha ran the same analysis and came to a different conclusion.  To me they’re both reasonable, but anti vaxxers have stigmatized any decision against any vaccininating.
I didn't disagree with Eliha, just an open ended question wondering about the thought process behind delaying vacination. Specifically, the choice to get it but at a later date unless her child contacts the disease.

You speculate that Eliha has done a cost/benefit anaylsis, such as you did. To that end, what are the costs associated with caring for a child under 12 with chickenpox? Typically the disease lasts 7-10 days and requires a parent or guardian to take time off work (Elihas and her husband work). It requires ibuprofen for pain, calamine or lotion for itching and that's about the total that I can tell ($20?). Is there more costs then that? I understand the vaccination costs $150, is it cheaper to skip the vaccine?

I did not do a cost benefit analysis, I just did a benefit analysis, my kid wouldn't be sick for 10 days. Can you help me with typical costs? Since it was free for me, I saved money, just on the calamine lotion that I'm avoiding.

This is your chance to teach me. I'm not trying to debate vaccination, you said you did a cost analysis and I'm interested in how that works, I don't have all the costs, I need your help.
Sorry, I misinterpreted your question to mean (why aren't you getting this vaccine? Are you an idiot?" instead of "why aren't you getting this vaccine? I'm interested in the reasons." Perhaps I've brought up a subject that rubs a raw nerve of mine...
When I say costs, I include things like dollar cost(it might not be paid by us but it helps drive up medical costs), risk of side effects and complications and dealing with a screaming child for a while afterwards. For something potentially catastrophic like polio or smallpox of course it's worth it. For something like chicken pox I understand if people choose to opt out.
On that note I think it's time to avoid the off topic section for a while and catch up on the best post thread and mustachian comic thread.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2018, 07:17:28 PM »
PrairieStache, the statistics you cited mean that Varicella has a.0045 chance of landing you in the hospital and .0000375 chance of being fatal.  Compare that to the lowest estimate of risk of death from a colonoscopy (a procedure that is astonishingly safe) at .007. Chickenpox is an extremely mild condition, in my opinion less severe than any cold or flu.  I personally chose to vaccinate my children for varicella (I also think it might be required by public schools in my area), but I wouldn’t think anything of a parent choosing not to, especially since you can now get vaccinated for the worst impact of the disease (shingles) later in life.  The vaccine does come with extremely rare risks of side effects such as meningitis, though I wasn’t able to find numbers of how often they occur.  I imagine they’re also vanishingly small, but the common side effects are a pain to deal with as well: fever, swelling, rashes, irritability, etc.
Another example: for years and years doctors told me to get the flu vaccine.  I had a small chance of contracting the flu; if I did contract it, my risk of severe complications was extremely low; I absolutely hate needles; I ran a risk of getting flu symptoms anyway; the vaccine only prevents in the flu in the 30-75% range anyway.  Not worth the hassle for me.  Later on when my wife was pregnant, I got one because the risk of severe complications to her and my newborn went way up.
This discussion actually encapsulates my frustration with vaccine conversations because of anti-vaxxers: they’ve made running a cost/benefit analysis on vaccines seem unreasonable.  I made a cost benefit analysis on the varicella vaccine and decided getting it was the right choice for my kids; elliha ran the same analysis and came to a different conclusion.  To me they’re both reasonable, but anti vaxxers have stigmatized any decision against any vaccininating.

Where does your opinion of the mildness of chickenpox come from? Your personal experience or broad statistical studies?

Certainly, the flu is not a mild condition, and that should be vaccinated for, but neither is chicken pox. The two things are unrelated.  Many of us have mild cases, but certainly not everyone has that experience, and you have to also consider shingles later in life. Vaccinating against chicken pox is for the good of the general public, not just the individual. The cost to you may be low, the cost to others may be high. Both monetarily (lost productivity at work, lost income to families without a stay at home parent), quality of life (I didn't get chicken pox on the bottoms of my feet; my sister did. She couldn't walk), and overall health (sure sucks to be the one who dies).

You compare it to a colonoscopy, which is a risky procedure- but right now the general view is that the harm of not having one outweighs the risks of having one. Apparently there are some new DNA (?) tests that can be done that can evaluate risk factor that can put off a colonoscopy for some time. My parents' doctor used that and recommended my father wait an additional number of years before having his done.


Frugalroogal

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2018, 03:36:20 AM »
All ranting about anti-vaxxers is approved. It is approved because this is the outcome of the anti-vaxxer movement:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45246049

snip*

Barring more effective regulation, I have come to the conclusion that the most effective method is inducing a social/emotional cost to anti-vaccination stances. The trick is how to do that without just being assholes.

I don't have time to look it up right now*, but I think Australia(?) passed a law where people that did not vaccine could not get child tax credits anymore.  The anti-vax groups dried up quite a bit overnight with that one.  That is one way....

*Sorry, I can't source this right now, hopefully someone has info to share.

LV

Yep. That would never work in the States, though, because freedumb.

Can confirm as an Australian with a child that most child related government subsidies require vaccination of the child to receive the benefit. It’s not small amounts of money either, for example the subsidy for daycare expenses is worth around $14 000 per year for us. You get $0 if your child isn’t vaccinated (exemptions for children with health reasons for not vaccinating).

fuzzy math

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2018, 07:26:31 AM »
Here’s how you talk to your doctor:

"Well, Mr Sucks, the treatment I recommend for your childs condition is X."
"OK Doc, that sounds good. Let’s go ahead and do it.  what are potential side effects? Are any of them severe? What should we do if we experience any of those side effects? Are there any alternative treatments? What are the pros and cons of those treatments? Why are you recommending this treatment over others?"
"Those are excellent questions Mr Sucks!" The doctor says with a smile "Allow me to answer them in a calm and informative manner."

Doctors are service providers and humans who are trying to help, and sometimes it’s nice to get a bit of validation. (Ask me how I know) The way you had it phrased could be misinterpreted as being antagonistic.

I'll respectfully disagree with your approach to how to talk to doctors.  As you noted, doctors are humans who can be exhausted, distracted, forgetful, lazy, ill informed, just plain wrong, or have any other human imperfections. I will always do my best to never agree to any course of treatment without being fully informed about that treatment and all other potential treatment options. Seeing as I am paying for their service, I'm not very concerned with whether or not they feel I'm antagonistic.

So wait, you asked if any weren't necessary? And you were going to wait for informed consent before blindly agreeing to proceed? You are an anti-vaxxer. Or you're very similar to a large group of people who are exactly like you who ask questions and want data, who are immediately shamed and labeled as anti-vaxxers. Funny how you are cursing out people exactly like yourself for doing exactly what you did.

If your dr had refused to engage with you and had said "your child must receive all the shots scheduled for today without a discussion, or you will be asked to leave my practice", would you have consented on the spot? Because that is what happens to parents who ask questions. The public shaming and bullying campaign is a concerted effort.

fuzzy math

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2018, 07:34:52 AM »
PrairieStache, the statistics you cited mean that Varicella has a.0045 chance of landing you in the hospital and .0000375 chance of being fatal.  Compare that to the lowest estimate of risk of death from a colonoscopy (a procedure that is astonishingly safe) at .007.  Chickenpox is an extremely mild condition, in my opinion less severe than any cold or flu.  I personally chose to vaccinate my children for varicella (I also think it might be required by public schools in my area), but I wouldn’t think anything of a parent choosing not to, especially since you can now get vaccinated for the worst impact of the disease (shingles) later in life.  The vaccine does come with extremely rare risks of side effects such as meningitis, though I wasn’t able to find numbers of how often they occur.  I imagine they’re also vanishingly small, but the common side effects are a pain to deal with as well: fever, swelling, rashes, irritability, etc.
Another example: for years and years doctors told me to get the flu vaccine.  I had a small chance of contracting the flu; if I did contract it, my risk of severe complications was extremely low; I absolutely hate needles; I ran a risk of getting flu symptoms anyway; the vaccine only prevents in the flu in the 30-75% range anyway.  Not worth the hassle for me.  Later on when my wife was pregnant, I got one because the risk of severe complications to her and my newborn went way up.
This discussion actually encapsulates my frustration with vaccine conversations because of anti-vaxxers: they’ve made running a cost/benefit analysis on vaccines seem unreasonable.  I made a cost benefit analysis on the varicella vaccine and decided getting it was the right choice for my kids; elliha ran the same analysis and came to a different conclusion.  To me they’re both reasonable, but anti vaxxers have stigmatized any decision against any vaccininating.

So wait, you don't believe the flu shot or the chicken pox vaccine is necessary and yet you fail to see that you are an anti-vaxxer? This is hilarious!!! You're ok with people making a choice for chicken pox.  Most anti vaxxers are just pro parental choice, most have given their child a majority of shorts, but have chosen to give them on an alternate schedule or opt out. My dr has labeled my family as anti vaxxers for opting out of the chicken pox vaccine and having our children immunized on a schedule we feel comfortable with.  Your child's medical record probably notes that you are one too now.

gaja

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2018, 09:49:33 AM »
I am pro-vaccines in general

Vaccines need to be very safe or the disease they are preventing needs to so severe that the risk of a side effect is still worth it. For the vaccines currently in the Swedish program I think that they fulfill these criteria and I have gladly vaccinated my kids. I have not chosen to give vaccines for the diseases not included but if my son has not had chicken pox by the time he is 12 I will give him that vaccine. My daughter has already had the disease so she will not get the vaccine. Any other vaccine will be given if necessary say if we travel to a country with higher numbers of a disease than Sweden or if a disease becomes more common we would vaccinate against too.
Why are you delaying chicken pox vacinne (Varicella)? In my country its standard to get the shot now; alongside mumps and measles. I wish it was around when I was a child, I hated having chickenpox.

From CDC
"Chickenpox used to be very common in the United States. In the early 1990s, an average of 4 million people got varicella, 10,500 to 13,000 were hospitalized (range, 8,000 to 18,000), and 100 to 150 died each year. In the 1990s, the highest rate of varicella was reported in preschool-aged children.

Each year, more than 3.5 million cases of varicella, 9,000 hospitalizations, and 100 deaths are prevented by varicella vaccination in the United States.

...vaccinated children are less likely to become infected with wild-type chickenpox virus, which is more likely to reactivate as shingles compared to attenuated vaccine virus."

It is not given at all in my country so I am actually giving an extra one.

Same in Norway. The public health institute are very conservative about adding new vaccines to the list, and have been weighing for and against varicella for four years now. They do recommend vaccinating if the child or someone in their family have a weak immune system, or (as elliha is considering) if the child hasn't gotten the disease before puberty. One of the things they want to know before rolling out the vaccine, is whether there might turn out to be a possibility that the vaccine could lead to shingles in old age. So far it looks like the vaccine reduces shingles compared to getting the disease, but they want more data before making the final decision.

Tubercolosis was removed from the Norwegian vaccine programme in 2009, leaving Malta as the only European country to still give it to all school children. The logic for taking it out was that there were so few cases compared to the cost ($1 000 000 a year for preventing 1-2 cases), it is treatable with other medicine, and the bacteria has evolved, making the vaccine less efficient.

Laserjet3051

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2018, 10:01:58 AM »
Go ahead, take a look in the mirror for a few moments.

As someone who has been in the business of DISCOVERING and DEVELOPING new medicines for decades, my job is to understand both the efficacy and safety profile of every drug candidate we advance for clinical testing/commercialization. That said, virtually every medicine has a unique safety risk profile. None are without risk and it behooves both the physician and patient to clearly understand what those risks are and the associated probabilities. This includes vaccines. Please also understand that we as a society dont fully understand everything and that includes drug safety. These are the unknown risks.

While I agree there are a bunch of lunatic pseudo-science anti-vaxxers out there, the fact remains that the JUDICIOUS use of all medicines should be based on a careful evaluation of risk/benefit profile, which can vary for a signel medicine from person to person, vaccines included.

As a health professional, I make decisions on a doctors recommendation on a case by case basis. We all should, and this includes vaccines. Who amongst you blindly trusts the FDA? IMHO, the anti- anti-vaxx community can be just as raving lunatic as the folks they condemn.

I am not the only drug professional who has concerns over medicine safety.

JGS1980

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2018, 10:21:01 AM »
PTF

Davnasty

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2018, 10:45:40 PM »
Go ahead, take a look in the mirror for a few moments.

As someone who has been in the business of DISCOVERING and DEVELOPING new medicines for decades, my job is to understand both the efficacy and safety profile of every drug candidate we advance for clinical testing/commercialization. That said, virtually every medicine has a unique safety risk profile. None are without risk and it behooves both the physician and patient to clearly understand what those risks are and the associated probabilities. This includes vaccines. Please also understand that we as a society dont fully understand everything and that includes drug safety. These are the unknown risks.

While I agree there are a bunch of lunatic pseudo-science anti-vaxxers out there, the fact remains that the JUDICIOUS use of all medicines should be based on a careful evaluation of risk/benefit profile, which can vary for a signel medicine from person to person, vaccines included.

As a health professional, I make decisions on a doctors recommendation on a case by case basis. We all should, and this includes vaccines. Who amongst you blindly trusts the FDA? IMHO, the anti- anti-vaxx community can be just as raving lunatic as the folks they condemn.

I am not the only drug professional who has concerns over medicine safety.

I absolutely agree with this. the one thing I would add, if you're not going to take the time to ask the questions or take other measures to come to your conclusion, you should blindly trust the FDA and/or your doctor.

Also, a problem can arise from people who take your advice but aren't aware that their information is bogus. This in no way makes your advice wrong, it's just that people by definition don't know when they're wrong and resist being told so. It's a bit of a conundrum.

At the very least, and getting back to the OP, there shouldn't be anything wrong with asking your Dr. for more information about the drugs you are receiving.


MarciaB

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2018, 09:27:24 AM »
All ranting about anti-vaxxers is approved. It is approved because this is the outcome of the anti-vaxxer movement:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45246049

As a working scientist, it is viscerally bothersome to me in part because the studies also show that (as a population) showing these people facts about the safety of vaccines and how vaccinate rates play out through herd immunity only makes them double down on their beliefs. I would be fine with required immunizations for a core set of illnesses with medical exceptions for those with immune issues, etc (because there is a subset of the population who do not tolerate vaccines well...which is ironically part of why we need to maintain high immunization rates).

Barring more effective regulation, I have come to the conclusion that the most effective method is inducing a social/emotional cost to anti-vaccination stances. The trick is how to do that without just being assholes.

I wish there was a large island that we could require all anti-vaxxers to go to with their families so they could all live together and not affect the rest of us with their bullshit.

Talk about the ultimate herd immunity...all the anti-vaxxers on one isolated island, all safe and sound, all by themselves...  A girl can dream, right?

accolay

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2018, 10:45:41 AM »
The largest problem we have with vaccinations is that too many people are vaccinated now.

Attention spans are small and memories too short. We need some severe outbreaks to remind people what death is like. Hundreds of dead babies and children will do the trick I think. A little measles, a little polio, some whooping cough, a spoonful of tetanus, a sprinkle of diphtheria. Good times, right?

gaja

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2018, 10:59:01 AM »
The largest problem we have with vaccinations is that too many people are vaccinated now.

Attention spans are small and memories too short. We need some severe outbreaks to remind people what death is like. Hundreds of dead babies and children will do the trick I think. A little measles, a little polio, some whooping cough, a spoonful of tetanus, a sprinkle of diphtheria. Good times, right?

Like this?



The post on the side says "in memory of teacher C.H. Larsen and wife Emilie's five children who died of diphtheria in 1903".

former player

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2018, 11:31:02 AM »
From The Guardian, 23 August 2018

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/23/russian-trolls-spread-vaccine-misinformation-on-twitter


"Bots and Russian trolls spread misinformation about vaccines on Twitter to sow division and distribute malicious content before and during the American presidential election, according to a new study.
Scientists at George Washington University, in Washington DC, made the discovery while trying to improve social media communications for public health workers, researchers said. Instead, they found trolls and bots skewing online debate and upending consensus about vaccine safety.
The study discovered several accounts, now known to belong to the same Russian trolls who interfered in the US election, as well as marketing and malware bots, tweeting about vaccines.

Russian trolls played both sides, the researchers said, tweeting pro- and anti-vaccine content in a politically charged context.

Sign up for Guardian Today US edition: the day's must-reads sent directly to you
 Read more

“These trolls seem to be using vaccination as a wedge issue, promoting discord in American society,” Mark Dredze, a team member and professor of computer science at Johns Hopkins, which was also involved in the study, said.""


fucking-Putin-fucking-Russian-Government

accolay

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2018, 12:07:27 PM »
The largest problem we have with vaccinations is that too many people are vaccinated now.

Attention spans are small and memories too short. We need some severe outbreaks to remind people what death is like. Hundreds of dead babies and children will do the trick I think. A little measles, a little polio, some whooping cough, a spoonful of tetanus, a sprinkle of diphtheria. Good times, right?

Like this?



The post on the side says "in memory of teacher C.H. Larsen and wife Emilie's five children who died of diphtheria in 1903".

Yep. People then would have killed for the vaccines we have today.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 09:59:57 PM by accolay »

nereo

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2018, 12:20:24 PM »
Had an experience a few days ago relevant to this thread:
Went to get my Tdap vaccine updated and was instantly given three sheets of paper at check-in detailing why vaccines were good health practices. It seems my local medical center has had to take a very pro-active stance on vaccines to combat anti-vaxxers. 

I didn't mind so much, and it was nice to have relevant scientific facts at my fingertips, but I'm guessing this is eating up a lot of resources which could otherwise be spent providing and improving healthcare.

cats

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2018, 06:28:45 PM »
To the OP, how old is your kid?  I found we got a big spiel about how safe and necessary vaccines were for the first few, but once we were past about 6 months, there was no real commentary from the doctor.  I assume at that point they see oh, this person is vaccinating on schedule, let's not waste time trying to sell them on vaccines.  The nurse (who administered the vaccines) usually gave us some info about common potential side effects and tips for reducing discomfort.  We typically get a 1-2 page handout with vaccine info, including potential side effects and which ones to be concerned about. I live in an areas with a fairly high anti-vaxx presence and really, past about 6 months I haven't felt our pediatrician was giving us heavy pressure around vaccines.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2018, 07:51:19 PM »
[Like this?



The post on the side says "in memory of teacher C.H. Larsen and wife Emilie's five children who died of diphtheria in 1903".

Years ago I went to the cemetery in the town my grandfather came from.  In our plot I found a small marble obelisk with the names of 6 children with the dates of death and ages.  Looks like an outbreak of something wiped out most of the children in that branch of our family.
I also remember how happy my parents were when the Sabine Oral vaccine came out. I was 5? 6? 7?  Maybe we need pictures of wards full of children in iron lungs?

Abe

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2018, 08:10:37 PM »
+1 regarding anti-vaxxers. However, like any drug, patients should get information on the side effects of vaccines. My son’s clinic gave us information even though we are doctors and had no concerns. With the main side effects being occasional flu-like symptoms for 1-2 days with irritability, and a very rare allergy to egg proteins, it doesn’t take too long to explain. Are we going to detail the entire manufacturing process of vaccines? That’s not an efficient use of time. Should we be able to list the risks? Clearly yes. My wife is a family physician in a heavy anti-vaxxer area and has had little issue with parents vaccinating their kids. Probably because anti-Vaxxers wouldn’t bring their children to a university physician office anyway. <shrug>

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2018, 09:10:43 PM »
+1 regarding anti-vaxxers. However, like any drug, patients should get information on the side effects of vaccines.
Our choices should be informed choices, but the truth is that for anything vaguely technical, whether it be medicine or fixing our cars, our choices are not informed choices. We're simply ignorant of all the details and ifs and buts. And so we make our decisions based on trust, whether it be trust in the profession generally - "he's wearing a blue boilersuit, he must know what he's doing" - or in the individual - "Dr Smith has looked after our family for years."

Building some semblance of a personal relationship creates trust. Which is why I mentioned the "bedside manner" skills being lacking in many doctors, but being present in many alternative medicine charlatans.

accolay

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2018, 10:05:55 PM »
Years ago I went to the cemetery in the town my grandfather came from.  In our plot I found a small marble obelisk with the names of 6 children with the dates of death and ages.  Looks like an outbreak of something wiped out most of the children in that branch of our family.
I also remember how happy my parents were when the Sabine Oral vaccine came out. I was 5? 6? 7?  Maybe we need pictures of wards full of children in iron lungs?

This is a good video, also should be on the anti-vax playlist.

The Last Few Polio Survivors – Last of the Iron Lungs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gplA6pq9cOs

Cassie

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2018, 11:55:28 PM »
I vaccinated my kids but they are long grown. I know a young woman that wants her child’s vaccines to be spread out and not so many at once which I think is also fine.  Every generation has more vaccines so think some are optional such as flu or chicken pox and a individual decision.   Also we are over vaccinating our pets and some vets are talking about it saying too many vaccines are causing health issues.  Instead of vaccinating pets every year you can do a titer test to see if they need a vaccine. Studies have shown that some dogs are immune from 7-15 years  after getting a vaccine.   

RetiredAt63

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Re: Fucking anti-vaxxers!!! (A rant)
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2018, 05:06:29 AM »
I vaccinated my kids but they are long grown. I know a young woman that wants her child’s vaccines to be spread out and not so many at once which I think is also fine.  Every generation has more vaccines so think some are optional such as flu or chicken pox and a individual decision.   Also we are over vaccinating our pets and some vets are talking about it saying too many vaccines are causing health issues.  Instead of vaccinating pets every year you can do a titer test to see if they need a vaccine. Studies have shown that some dogs are immune from 7-15 years  after getting a vaccine.

People can do titre tests too.  I never had German measles as a kid, and at that time there was no vaccine.  As a young adult I had my blood titres tested for it.  No immunity.  I was very glad to get the vaccination, since symptoms can be very mild but if you are pregnant (first trimester) German measles can cause birth defects.