Author Topic: French terrorist attacks  (Read 37780 times)

marty998

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French terrorist attacks
« on: November 13, 2015, 05:41:19 PM »
Truly awful news. Early reports suggest over 100 have been massacred in a Paris concert hall.

Prayers and thoughts with families of the victims.

lizzzi

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2015, 05:43:22 PM »
Yes, I opened up my computer for my nightly fix of Samuel Pepys diary online, and saw the horrible news. My thoughts and prayers are also with the victims, with their loved ones, and with France.

okits

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2015, 05:56:00 PM »
So sad, and surreal. 

Blueskies123

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 06:09:28 PM »
God bless the French, one of our earliest allies.
God bless the suffering.

UnleashHell

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 08:32:46 PM »
there is no god.
there is no allah.
there are many people who use religion to gain power over others.
tonight that has lead to people dying in paris.
People die every day because of the abuse of power and religion.

heres an idea. stop fucking killing people.


its that simple.


Hank Sinatra

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 08:34:40 PM »
God bless the French, one of our earliest allies.
God bless the suffering.

Are we back to liking the French again?

Rezdent

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 08:45:20 PM »
My thoughts are with them.  I am shocked and sad.

southern granny

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 08:46:54 PM »
Yes, it is horrible.  Praying for the victims, and all those affected. 

UnleashHell

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 08:48:16 PM »
God bless the French, one of our earliest allies.
God bless the suffering.

Are we back to liking the French again?
could be a stretch. lets go with support.

Hank Sinatra

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2015, 09:49:00 PM »
God bless the French, one of our earliest allies.
God bless the suffering.

Are we back to liking the French again?
could be a stretch. lets go with support.

I don't know. That's sounds too close to socialism. Slippery slope


Kris

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 09:55:53 PM »
God bless the French, one of our earliest allies.
God bless the suffering.

Are we back to liking the French again?
could be a stretch. lets go with support.

I don't know. That's sounds too close to socialism. Slippery slope

How about we not be fucking assholes for a little while.  Not even sarcastically,

Hank Sinatra

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2015, 10:10:24 PM »
God bless the French, one of our earliest allies.
God bless the suffering.

Are we back to liking the French again?
could be a stretch. lets go with support.

I don't know. That's sounds too close to socialism. Slippery slope

How about we not be fucking assholes for a little while.  Not even sarcastically,

You're free to stop any time. And don't bore me with your sarcasm

sheepstache

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2015, 11:47:40 PM »
God bless the French, one of our earliest allies.
God bless the suffering.

Are we back to liking the French again?
could be a stretch. lets go with support.

Everybody likes you when you're getting blown up. I remember The Onion article from 9/11: "Rest of Country Temporarily Feels Deep Affection for New York."

Squirrel away

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2015, 06:25:49 AM »
Truly horrifying. I woke up this morning wondering how many more people would be reported killed as I went to bed just as they had stormed the concert hall.

mrpercentage

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2015, 06:44:39 PM »
there is no god.
there is no allah.
there are many people who use religion to gain power over others.
tonight that has lead to people dying in paris.
People die every day because of the abuse of power and religion.

heres an idea. stop fucking killing people.


its that simple.

Religion really isn't the major role- its Syria. Religion is part of their culture. I know plenty of muslims that don't jihad and many christians who don't crusade and many atheists who don't attack random people for political statements. The problem is extremists. They might bomb abortion clinics, put spikes in logs, or attack random people thinking they are making some point other than hurting a bunch of people not related to the conflict and drawing them into conflict because now they have a stake in it. Its self feeding madness. Eye for an eye blinds the whole world.

geekette

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2015, 07:21:17 PM »
Very interesting video about how our brains do this "us" vs. "them" thing - http://video.pbs.org/video/2365600519/

I can see now how genocides happen. 

music lover

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2015, 07:48:53 PM »
Religion really isn't the major role- its Syria. Religion is part of their culture. I know plenty of muslims that don't jihad and many christians who don't crusade and many atheists who don't attack random people for political statements. The problem is extremists. They might bomb abortion clinics, put spikes in logs, or attack random people thinking they are making some point other than hurting a bunch of people not related to the conflict and drawing them into conflict because now they have a stake in it. Its self feeding madness. Eye for an eye blinds the whole world.

No one is worried about Christian, atheist, or Buddhist bombings on a global scale. There will always be a few extremists, but it's always just a few nutbars scattered here and there.

But...Muslim culture is different. Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law and several other stone age beliefs, and also has enough extremists to make it dangerous for anyone with an opposing view to live a normal life.

France was one of the few countries brave enough to take a stand up against extremism and look what happened. They were attacked for making a stand. The problem isn't going away, no matter what some people say. The reality is that a Muslim culture accepts no other beliefs other than their own. No exceptions are ever made. Ever.

Believe, convert, or die. Those are the only choices.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 07:50:37 PM by music lover »

PKFFW

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2015, 08:52:14 PM »
No one is worried about Christian, atheist, or Buddhist bombings on a global scale. There will always be a few extremists, but it's always just a few nutbars scattered here and there.

But...Muslim culture is different. Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law and several other stone age beliefs, and also has enough extremists to make it dangerous for anyone with an opposing view to live a normal life.

France was one of the few countries brave enough to take a stand up against extremism and look what happened. They were attacked for making a stand. The problem isn't going away, no matter what some people say. The reality is that a Muslim culture accepts no other beliefs other than their own. No exceptions are ever made. Ever.

Believe, convert, or die. Those are the only choices.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying "Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law"?

Do you mean every majority Muslim country has a legal code based on Sharia Law?  Or do you simply mean that the people who rule those countries personally believe in Sharia Law?  Believing in Sharia Law and enacting a legal system based on Sharia Law are two different things.

Here is a list of majority Mulism countries that are secular and do not have a legal system based on Sharia Law.

Azerbaijan, Burkina Faso, Chad, Gambia, Guineia, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Senegal, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Uzbekistan.

As for "Muslim culture is different......Believe, convert or die.  Those are the only choice"

1.6 Billion Muslims in the world.

The uppermost combined strength estimates I could find of Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, Islamic State and the Taliban equal 346,000.

So the big 4 terrorist organisations make up approximately 0.0002% of the Muslim population.  Lets round that up to 0.1%, an increase of 500%, to include all the other terrorist organisations I couldn't be bothered finding numbers for.

So the other 99.9% seemingly don't care if you believe or convert and have shown no inclination to try to force you to do either.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 08:54:32 PM by PKFFW »

smilla

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2015, 11:08:33 PM »
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying "Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law"?

Do you mean every majority Muslim country has a legal code based on Sharia Law?  Or do you simply mean that the people who rule those countries personally believe in Sharia Law?  Believing in Sharia Law and enacting a legal system based on Sharia Law are two different things.

Here is a list of majority Mulism countries that are secular and do not have a legal system based on Sharia Law.

Azerbaijan, Burkina Faso, Chad, Gambia, Guineia, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Senegal, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Uzbekistan.

As for "Muslim culture is different......Believe, convert or die.  Those are the only choice"

1.6 Billion Muslims in the world.

The uppermost combined strength estimates I could find of Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, Islamic State and the Taliban equal 346,000.

So the big 4 terrorist organisations make up approximately 0.0002% of the Muslim population.  Lets round that up to 0.1%, an increase of 500%, to include all the other terrorist organisations I couldn't be bothered finding numbers for.

So the other 99.9% seemingly don't care if you believe or convert and have shown no inclination to try to force you to do either.

Thank you. Always nice to read a coolly measured response to trollish hyperbole.

The_Captain

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2015, 11:13:03 PM »
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying "Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law"?

Do you mean every majority Muslim country has a legal code based on Sharia Law?  Or do you simply mean that the people who rule those countries personally believe in Sharia Law?  Believing in Sharia Law and enacting a legal system based on Sharia Law are two different things.

Here is a list of majority Mulism countries that are secular and do not have a legal system based on Sharia Law.

Azerbaijan, Burkina Faso, Chad, Gambia, Guineia, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Senegal, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Uzbekistan.

As for "Muslim culture is different......Believe, convert or die.  Those are the only choice"

1.6 Billion Muslims in the world.

The uppermost combined strength estimates I could find of Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, Islamic State and the Taliban equal 346,000.

So the big 4 terrorist organisations make up approximately 0.0002% of the Muslim population.  Lets round that up to 0.1%, an increase of 500%, to include all the other terrorist organisations I couldn't be bothered finding numbers for.

So the other 99.9% seemingly don't care if you believe or convert and have shown no inclination to try to force you to do either.

Thank you. Always nice to read a coolly measured response to trollish hyperbole.

This is pretty much half of what I've been doing on the internet since the attacks. So much hate spewing from every corner. It's like people wait for a big event like this to push their nationalistic and xenophobic views nonstop to people who are afraid and wondering what to do. Of course I've gotten a lot of flak for encouraging nuance.

arebelspy

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2015, 01:21:41 AM »
MOD NOTE: Before this gets too much further, please remember the forum rules.

Posting with the intent of genuine, honest, open discussion because you want to learn is great.  Posting racist, or accusatory things about others, especially whole groups of diverse people, is not okay.

If you genuinely think things apply to whole groups of people, specifically point out that this is your opinion, and you'd like information to learn more. Then people can help teach you more, such as PKFFW's post, above.

But if you are just posting to spew bile, don't bother.  Everyone with a shred of empathy in their body is upset, but accusing groups of others who themselves wouldn't condone these attacks helps no one.

Cheers!
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dachs

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2015, 03:05:58 AM »

But...Muslim culture is different. Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law and several other stone age beliefs, and also has enough extremists to make it dangerous for anyone with an opposing view to live a normal life.


Oh is that true? What about Indonesia?

dachs

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2015, 03:08:39 AM »
No one is worried about Christian, atheist, or Buddhist bombings on a global scale. There will always be a few extremists, but it's always just a few nutbars scattered here and there.

But...Muslim culture is different. Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law and several other stone age beliefs, and also has enough extremists to make it dangerous for anyone with an opposing view to live a normal life.

France was one of the few countries brave enough to take a stand up against extremism and look what happened. They were attacked for making a stand. The problem isn't going away, no matter what some people say. The reality is that a Muslim culture accepts no other beliefs other than their own. No exceptions are ever made. Ever.

Believe, convert, or die. Those are the only choices.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying "Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law"?

Do you mean every majority Muslim country has a legal code based on Sharia Law?  Or do you simply mean that the people who rule those countries personally believe in Sharia Law?  Believing in Sharia Law and enacting a legal system based on Sharia Law are two different things.

Here is a list of majority Mulism countries that are secular and do not have a legal system based on Sharia Law.

Azerbaijan, Burkina Faso, Chad, Gambia, Guineia, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Senegal, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Uzbekistan.

As for "Muslim culture is different......Believe, convert or die.  Those are the only choice"

1.6 Billion Muslims in the world.

The uppermost combined strength estimates I could find of Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, Islamic State and the Taliban equal 346,000.

So the big 4 terrorist organisations make up approximately 0.0002% of the Muslim population.  Lets round that up to 0.1%, an increase of 500%, to include all the other terrorist organisations I couldn't be bothered finding numbers for.

So the other 99.9% seemingly don't care if you believe or convert and have shown no inclination to try to force you to do either.
Good post. However, lots of those countries are or were ruled by dictators oppressing basically everytning.

BlueMR2

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2015, 04:08:39 AM »
So the other 99.9% seemingly don't care if you believe or convert and have shown no inclination to try to force you to do either.

Sounds like the typical religious group where the bulk are just going through the motions for whatever reason (keeping family happy, to look good in society, because it's considered a good moral example).

Letj

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2015, 06:31:26 AM »
No one is worried about Christian, atheist, or Buddhist bombings on a global scale. There will always be a few extremists, but it's always just a few nutbars scattered here and there.

But...Muslim culture is different. Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law and several other stone age beliefs, and also has enough extremists to make it dangerous for anyone with an opposing view to live a normal life.

France was one of the few countries brave enough to take a stand up against extremism and look what happened. They were attacked for making a stand. The problem isn't going away, no matter what some people say. The reality is that a Muslim culture accepts no other beliefs other than their own. No exceptions are ever made. Ever.

Believe, convert, or die. Those are the only choices.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying "Every single country (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Muslim majority is ruled by people who believe in Sharia law"?

Do you mean every majority Muslim country has a legal code based on Sharia Law?  Or do you simply mean that the people who rule those countries personally believe in Sharia Law?  Believing in Sharia Law and enacting a legal system based on Sharia Law are two different things.

Here is a list of majority Mulism countries that are secular and do not have a legal system based on Sharia Law.

Azerbaijan, Burkina Faso, Chad, Gambia, Guineia, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Senegal, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Uzbekistan.

As for "Muslim culture is different......Believe, convert or die.  Those are the only choice"

1.6 Billion Muslims in the world.

The uppermost combined strength estimates I could find of Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, Islamic State and the Taliban equal 346,000.

So the big 4 terrorist organisations make up approximately 0.0002% of the Muslim population.  Lets round that up to 0.1%, an increase of 500%, to include all the other terrorist organisations I couldn't be bothered finding numbers for.

So the other 99.9% seemingly don't care if you believe or convert and have shown no inclination to try to force you to do either.

I would not describe any of those countries as secular. With all due respect, you are wrong. These countries do not hold democratic principles including self determination nor freedom of speech and are quite oppressive. Very few places outside of North America and Western Europe can be described as secular and even so it doesn't mean they are free countries. 

cerat0n1a

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2015, 08:24:52 AM »
Far more people killed in the USA each year in mass shootings (1000+ incidents in last 3 years where 4 or more people were shot) than people killed in Europe by Islamic terrorists. I'm sure at least some of those would give political, religious or racial justifications for what they did. It's not very hard in today's world for small numbers of madmen to carry out atrocities like this.

arebelspy

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2015, 08:58:39 AM »
I (as a traveler) like Rick Steves' comment:
Quote
After Friday's horrifying events in Paris, as we keep the victims and their families in our prayers and marvel at how violent hatred can express itself, it’s natural for those of us with travels coming up to wonder what is the correct response. Let me share my thoughts:

I have two fundamental concerns: what is safe, and what is the appropriate response to terrorism.

About safety, I believe this is an isolated incident. Tomorrow Paris will be no more dangerous than it was the day before that terrible Friday the 13th. I also believe that security in Paris and throughout Europe will be heightened in response to this attack.

Remember: There's an important difference between fear and risk.

About the right response to terrorism, I believe we owe it to the victims of this act not to let the terrorist win by being terrorized. That’s exactly the response they are hoping for. Sure, it’s natural for our emotions to get the best of us. But, especially given the impact of sensational media coverage, we need to respond intelligently and rationally.

In 2004, Madrid suffered a terrorist bombing in its Metro, which killed 191 and injured 1,800. In 2005, London suffered a similar terrorist bombing in its Tube system, killing 52 and injuring 700. These societies tightened their security, got the bad guys, and carried on. Paris will, too.

I'm sure that many Americans will cancel their trips to Paris (a city of 2 million people) or the rest of Europe (a continent of 500 million people), because of an event that killed about 150. As a result, ironically, they’ll be staying home in a country of 320 million people that loses over 30,000 people a year (close to 100 people a day) to gun violence.

Again, our thoughts and prayers go out to the people of Paris, the victims, and their loved ones. And it remains my firmly held belief that the best way for Americans to fight terrorism is to keep on traveling.


I don't know that he needed to add the gun comment, as it can polarize a lot of people, and having them object to that at the end means they'll dismiss his whole message, but overall it was a good comment, IMO.
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Paul der Krake

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2015, 09:25:59 AM »
Please don't cancel your travel plans. The last thing the city needs is a downturn in tourism revenue.

Paris remains one of the safest places in the world. You will see in uptick in vigilance but that's it. Next week, restaurants meals will be served,  trains will transport workers, children will walk to school, like they always do. Mourn, but move on.

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2015, 10:03:11 AM »
I'm probably gonna fly in the face of Arelelspy's admonition.  Individually the Moslems I met in my service time were pretty OK. But studying and dealing with them as a whole and especially the ones in Afghanistan I've never encountered a more racist, homophobic, violently theocratic, studiously ignorant, macho vendetta based, anti woman culture in my life. And for the Afghans in particular a culturally ingrained tendency toward child molestation and really poor hygiene. It's like a caricature of the old American South multiplied by ten but not satisfied sticking to their corner. Close exposure to them horrified all my liberal values.  No, 99.99% of Moslems don't support terrorism but they do precious little to stop it and the groups are firmly rooted in its religion/culture.  You have to see it up close to believe it.

MOD NOTE: No.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 10:06:34 AM by arebelspy »

brainfart

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2015, 01:03:27 PM »
I wanted to go to bed, had a last look at a news site and saw it being mentioned. Immediately switched TV back on and watched the horror unfold in real time on several TV stations. Finally went to bed when the numbers of expected victims were around 140 when the concert hall was taken back by the police. Next morning, Paris everywhere on TV.
Now everyone has their facebook profile picture in tricolor, Banksy's peace sign everywhere and so on.

WHAT A FRIGGIN JOKE! THIS is what everyday life is like in war zones, and we don't care. Now we suddenly do because it's France?
I don't remember the same media attention when 47 people died under still unknown circumstances in Odessa, Ukraine a few years ago. Did you know what happened in Beirut last week? or in Baghdad? Yemen? 200 juveniles executed. Did you see it on TV? Saw it mentioned on facebook? What about 220 Russian tourists, in Egypt? Were we suddenly all Russians?
(Je suis Charlie... I wasn't, btw)

JZinCO

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2015, 01:32:37 PM »
WHAT A FRIGGIN JOKE! THIS is what everyday life is like in war zones, and we don't care. Now we suddenly do because it's France?
I don't remember the same media attention when 47 people died under still unknown circumstances in Odessa, Ukraine a few years ago. Did you know what happened in Beirut last week? or in Baghdad? Yemen? 200 juveniles executed. Did you see it on TV? Saw it mentioned on facebook? What about 220 Russian tourists, in Egypt? Were we suddenly all Russians?
(Je suis Charlie... I wasn't, btw)

So, this is going to rile a few feathers, but I'm trying to get us towards some self-reflection.
Are we upset because violations against human rights have occurred? Then it makes sense to be equally outraged with respect to the events you alluded to. I don't think this would be the case. There would be international outcry when Saudi Arabia crucifies apostates, as much as an everyday gang shooting, or as much as 9/11.
Are we upset because of the relative magnitude? This is the largest attack (body count) in France since WWII. It's France's 9/11. So does our outrage scale with perceived magnitude? The events in Ukraine are minor to the soviet area, so maybe we shouldn't care so much about that relative to the events in France.

No, I think our outrage scales with closeness, or put another way mutual dependency. My hunch is, we have greater concern when a member of your in-group is attacked. We are allied with France. It seems 'natural' to care more when your family member is sexually assaulted than a stranger on the evening news. It does impact the US more when allies are attacked rather than when out-group members are attacked.
And, I'm okay with that. I don't have enough reserves of outrage to spare to every corner of the globe.


JZinCO

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2015, 01:40:48 PM »
there is no god.
there is no allah.
there are many people who use religion to gain power over others.
tonight that has lead to people dying in paris.
People die every day because of the abuse of power and religion.
heres an idea. stop fucking killing people.
its that simple.
Religion really isn't the major role- its Syria.
+1 for UnleashHell.

Right, great point. I mean, it's not like ISIS claimed the attacks in Paris were in response to insulting Mohammed. It's not like gunmen said Allahu Akbar as they were slaying people.

Oh wait...

[note] Before the PC police jump on me, I'm not saying every adherent to Islam supports ISIS's tactics. Just as I don't think every christian supported the Lord's Resistance Army. But when perpetrator's say "I am doing this because it is how I understand what the faith commands me to do.", it's wise to accept their motive.

justajane

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2015, 02:31:03 PM »
I want to thank the moderators for not locking the thread...yet. I much more appreciate letting offensive or offensively-broad-brush opinions see the light of day. I was participating and enjoying a passionate discussion about American gun culture a few weeks ago only to have it locked because the moderators were getting too many complaints. So, for those of you who are offended, why don't you say so openly in the comments rather than clicking the "report to moderator" button?

As far as Paris, I go back and forth about the idea that we are only outraged about Paris because it's Western and that we prioritize Western lives over those of people in Syria or Africa or where ever. This is very likely the case, although I was equally outraged by what happened in the Kenyan mall attack, the Mumbai terrorist attack, or the Pashawar school massacre. It might not have led people to change their FB profile pictures, but anybody who read about those events was likely also disturbed. One thing about Paris is that so many of us have been there as tourists or have some sort of cultural connection to the city.

I do wonder what the end game with ISIS is. Also, my husband didn't agree, but why was Paris targeted specifically? I imagine the more-open access to Europe makes this more possible there. In other words, it's not that ISIS (or ISIL, if you will) hates France more than the U.S.; it's just that they could carry out this attack more easily. It looks like several of the attackers were Belgian. I will be interested in how they managed to get that weaponry into Europe as well.

Psychstache

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2015, 02:51:07 PM »
Individually the Moslems Christians I met were pretty OK. But studying and dealing with them as a whole and especially the ones in Afghanistan American South I've never encountered a more racist, homophobic, violently theocratic, studiously ignorant, macho vendetta based, anti woman culture in my life. And for the Afghans Catholics in particular a culturally ingrained tendency toward child molestation and really poor hygiene. It's like a caricature of the old American South multiplied by ten but not satisfied sticking to their corner. Close exposure to them horrified all my liberal values.  No, 99.99% of Moslems Christians don't support terrorism but they do precious little to stop it and the groups are firmly rooted in its religion/culture.  You have to see it up close to believe it.


See how easy it is for the shoe to be on the other foot.

astvilla

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2015, 03:33:40 PM »
I'm surprised at some of the censorship exercised in these forums.  We're about open discussion.  Sometimes that means hearing things you don't want to hear, even if it's the truth. Kinda embarassing.  EricL had a point.  Even the NYT reported on some of those topics. Why is it banned here? I don't know what the First Amendment says about internet forums, but seems too reactionary.

Anyways, I honestly wasn't surprised about the attack.  I did expect something to happen but no idea when.  Plus there have always been attacks.  The policy towards illegals/refugees wasn't going to be pretty and current European Muslims were already committing attacks. Letting in more would only exacerbate.  That and the internet makes ideas, emotions, more contagious and powerful.  Europe was a bit too open and paid the price, although many are racists (opinion mixed w/facts).  If they had an equivalent to America's civil rights movement, then maybe the European-Muslims wouldn't have felt so isolated.  Plus they don't screen as much.  Also bad luck since they're connected by land to Middle East.

I imagine there are more Muslims in France than other EU countries, that's why they went through Charlie Hebdo, the supermarket shootout, and now this. Not covered as much, only a little (perhaps purposefully) was that 1 of the targets was a Jewish business (could be coincidental so we can't jump to conclusions). And if you listen to Al Nusra/ISIS chants, they really DO NOT like Jews. Or Americans. Or women.

I've watched the news since I was 11.  It's the same thing every time so I'm numb to all this.  Ties into that other thread about news media.  Attack...shock...grief...retaliation (that never fixes things)...Hollywood/TV dinners/funny youtube videos/comedy.  Rinse then repeat.

And not everyone's deaths are equal. 
220 russians in flight dead...meh...nothing too shocking.
Ukrainians dead...meh it's war. 
Russian school hostage situation w/Chechnya...meh. 
2010 Moscow metro...meh we don't care anymore. 
2002 Moscow theater...meh does anyone even remember?  (heck I was 12 years old then). 
Drone attacks on SIM cards potentially killing innocents...meh. 
Bombing weddings...meh. 
Bombing MSF hospital...already don't care.
Suicide bombings carried by children...meh. 
Mumbai...who cares, they're brown people. 
Uyghur riots in Xinjiang (Americans cheer! Bad Chinese government and people!)
Isla Vista shootings (half Asian, half white), tragic because the white girls died, (Asian guys? no one cares!)
Kenya mall..meh no one cares
Kenya school...meh no one cares.
Wikileak cable leaks showing American gunships massacring Iraqi civilians...meh no one cares.
Saudi Arabia beheading women...meh. 

White Western European deaths make a much bigger splash for headlines/tabloids to sell and make $$ off of than other groups or the thousands of civilians, women and children we killed in retaliation for the past 14 years.  Just the reality, other tragedies don't matter that much, especially if they're not as connected to us.  When you realize that, you understand a little why some Muslims might feel a little angry...I think most would.  And I feel sorry for the coming wrath against Muslims who will face hate, isolation, bullying for this.  It'd only make things worse.

On a side note, I thought Bush actually did really well protecting Muslims after 9/11 from hatred (I think I also recall a PBS doc mentioning this as a positive of his presidency).  All this hate against Muslims seemed to happen after Obama entered office.

And people keep saying "keep you in our thoughts."  But where?  Where in your thoughts are they?  Above your Mustachian values? Next paycheck? Hot chick/hunk you want to sleep with? What does that mean?  How does that help the victims?  How does that fix the problem?  None of the people who died in all these events are in your thoughts anymore.  In fact, none of you care.  In fact, many don't even remember Seems like such an empty headed, politically correct statement. 

We will move past this just like humans have for millennia. All tragedies have a half life.  Similar to what Rick Steves implied.  Question is what actions are we going to take and how does that affect us? Does mass surveillance actually protect us?  Snowden could be right.  You don't need complex communications to get a rifle, bring a homemade bomb and wreck carnage.  Mass surveillance isn't Minority Report.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 03:43:47 PM by astvilla »

Paul der Krake

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2015, 03:58:21 PM »
Also, my husband didn't agree, but why was Paris targeted specifically? I imagine the more-open access to Europe makes this more possible there. In other words, it's not that ISIS (or ISIL, if you will) hates France more than the U.S.; it's just that they could carry out this attack more easily. It looks like several of the attackers were Belgian. I will be interested in how they managed to get that weaponry into Europe as well.
The picture that is currently emerging is that at least some of the attackers were radicalized French citizens. Their manifesto explicitely mentions the French air strikes of the last few weeks.

There are virtually no border controls within the EU.

beltim

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2015, 04:04:39 PM »
I want to thank the moderators for not locking the thread...yet. I much more appreciate letting offensive or offensively-broad-brush opinions see the light of day. I was participating and enjoying a passionate discussion about American gun culture a few weeks ago only to have it locked because the moderators were getting too many complaints. So, for those of you who are offended, why don't you say so openly in the comments rather than clicking the "report to moderator" button?

Because I get tired of correcting offensive comments when they're made by a limited number of individuals who have shown a complete lack of willingness to learn, even after correction, let alone being willing to spend even 10 seconds googling something before posting something offensive.  It's trivially easy to realize that there are many secular countries with Islamic majorities.  Heck, the world's most populous country with a Muslim majority is secular (Indonesia, ~90% Muslim). 

Since music lover doesn't care to do even basic research before spouting offensive comments, I don't find any value in his or her posts on the topic.  There's no reason to engage, other than perhaps to let other people know exactly how wrong he or she is.  And that gets old pretty quickly.

Letj

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2015, 04:21:42 PM »
I'm probably gonna fly in the face of Arelelspy's admonition.  Individually the Moslems I met in my service time were pretty OK. But studying and dealing with them as a whole and especially the ones in Afghanistan I've never encountered a more racist, homophobic, violently theocratic, studiously ignorant, macho vendetta based, anti woman culture in my life. And for the Afghans in particular a culturally ingrained tendency toward child molestation and really poor hygiene. It's like a caricature of the old American South multiplied by ten but not satisfied sticking to their corner. Close exposure to them horrified all my liberal values.  No, 99.99% of Moslems don't support terrorism but they do precious little to stop it and the groups are firmly rooted in its religion/culture.  You have to see it up close to believe it.

MOD NOTE: No.

I have to say this is pretty much an accurate depiction. However, many of this is true of developing countries which are characterized by low levels of education and high levels of poverty. The child molestation is endemic in Afghanistan; it's is normal to have a young boy serve as your pleasure toy. The same is true of many other places in the poor hemisphere of this world. Unfortunately the governments and their population turn a blind eyes to these things. In fact, it can be downright dangerous for you to report or draw attention to these wrong doings. Anyone who knows the developing world will tell you that speaking up will and can get you killed. You can't even report it to the authorities because those in authority is the brother/sister/cousin/friend of the person you are reporting and it will not stay confidential.

marty998

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2015, 04:47:53 PM »
I'm surprised at some of the censorship exercised in these forums.  We're about open discussion.  Sometimes that means hearing things you don't want to hear, even if it's the truth. Kinda embarassing.  EricL had a point.  Even the NYT reported on some of those topics. Why is it banned here? I don't know what the First Amendment says about internet forums, but seems too reactionary.

I can understand why it was censored. Much of what Eric wrote is true and does occur, except for the part about painting the entire country with that brush.

Yes there are cultural practices of child marriage and 'dancing boys'. It's supposably illegal but the laws are not enforced. These practices tend to occur in rural areas where education is low. It doesn't happen in the more 'civilised' parts of the country.

We will move past this just like humans have for millennia. All tragedies have a half life.  Similar to what Rick Steves implied.  Question is what actions are we going to take and how does that affect us? Does mass surveillance actually protect us?  Snowden could be right.  You don't need complex communications to get a rifle, bring a homemade bomb and wreck carnage.  Mass surveillance isn't Minority Report.

Western society has moved past the stage of having troops and armies roaming the streets.

So when you have armed gangs who look like they belong in a military unit mowing people down in callous cold blood on the streets of Paris, then yes it does leave a more lasting impression than it if occurred in downtown Baghdad.

Snowden may well be right, the West has spent trillions on 'security'. It's the wrong solution to the problem. You can't eliminate an ideology this way. You need to change the cultures at the source.

At some point (even lefties like me) need realise there are certain aspects of certain cultures that need to be eliminated. Cultures are not all equal and desirable of preservation.

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2015, 05:41:50 PM »
OK, I'm back.  But only for an hour.  Arebelspy seems to have taken greater offense than anticipated and banned me for a few weeks.  I'm angry and hurt but I knew the risk - their sandbox, their rules - so I'll suck it up and exercise free speech somewhere else.  I know what I said flies in the face of  many precious idealistic sentiments/dogma (and my own hippie upbringing) and painted with with a broad(ish) brush.  Others can debate how broad.  Indeed, if anything I held back, not recounting many horrible things to keep it from being more ranty.  When I return I'm not touching on this topic again.  But nor will I apologize.  I will reiterate one thing - you REALLY have to see these societies up close to understand. 

PKFFW

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2015, 06:18:07 PM »
I would not describe any of those countries as secular. With all due respect, you are wrong. These countries do not hold democratic principles including self determination nor freedom of speech and are quite oppressive. Very few places outside of North America and Western Europe can be described as secular and even so it doesn't mean they are free countries.
Firstly, secular is not the same as democratic.  Nor is it the same as free and open rather than oppressive.

Secondly, even if you want to cross off the ones that don't adhere to your personal redefinition of secular as being like North America and Western Europe, that still means some of the countries on the list are secular.

Thirdly, none of the countries on the list have a legal system based on Sharia Law, which was the implied meaning of music lovers comment.  So he/she is still demonstrably wrong even if none of the countries adhere to your personal redefinition of secular.

So, with all due respect, no I am not wrong, you are.

justajane

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2015, 06:33:22 PM »
I want to thank the moderators for not locking the thread...yet. I much more appreciate letting offensive or offensively-broad-brush opinions see the light of day. I was participating and enjoying a passionate discussion about American gun culture a few weeks ago only to have it locked because the moderators were getting too many complaints. So, for those of you who are offended, why don't you say so openly in the comments rather than clicking the "report to moderator" button?

Because I get tired of correcting offensive comments when they're made by a limited number of individuals who have shown a complete lack of willingness to learn, even after correction, let alone being willing to spend even 10 seconds googling something before posting something offensive.  It's trivially easy to realize that there are many secular countries with Islamic majorities.  Heck, the world's most populous country with a Muslim majority is secular (Indonesia, ~90% Muslim). 

Since music lover doesn't care to do even basic research before spouting offensive comments, I don't find any value in his or her posts on the topic.  There's no reason to engage, other than perhaps to let other people know exactly how wrong he or she is.  And that gets old pretty quickly.

But then the whole thread gets locked and no one gets to discuss the topic anymore. That is the shame of over-reporting. It's not like the moderators are paid, so I can understand why, if they get tons and tons of reports on one thread, they just shut it down. I reserve the moderator button for when people are being directly rude or antagonistic to other people on the thread - not when they say something I don't agree with or find politically offensive or otherwise.

I can understand not wanting to engage when someone has proven that they are stubbornly recalcitrant, though.

beltim

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2015, 07:28:25 PM »
I want to thank the moderators for not locking the thread...yet. I much more appreciate letting offensive or offensively-broad-brush opinions see the light of day. I was participating and enjoying a passionate discussion about American gun culture a few weeks ago only to have it locked because the moderators were getting too many complaints. So, for those of you who are offended, why don't you say so openly in the comments rather than clicking the "report to moderator" button?

Because I get tired of correcting offensive comments when they're made by a limited number of individuals who have shown a complete lack of willingness to learn, even after correction, let alone being willing to spend even 10 seconds googling something before posting something offensive.  It's trivially easy to realize that there are many secular countries with Islamic majorities.  Heck, the world's most populous country with a Muslim majority is secular (Indonesia, ~90% Muslim). 

Since music lover doesn't care to do even basic research before spouting offensive comments, I don't find any value in his or her posts on the topic.  There's no reason to engage, other than perhaps to let other people know exactly how wrong he or she is.  And that gets old pretty quickly.

But then the whole thread gets locked and no one gets to discuss the topic anymore. That is the shame of over-reporting. It's not like the moderators are paid, so I can understand why, if they get tons and tons of reports on one thread, they just shut it down. I reserve the moderator button for when people are being directly rude or antagonistic to other people on the thread - not when they say something I don't agree with or find politically offensive or otherwise.

I can understand not wanting to engage when someone has proven that they are stubbornly recalcitrant, though.

I agree that the thread getting locked isn't the solution.  I think banning trolls, and people who consistently break the forum rules, is the solution.

I don't have a problem with charged statements, even if I don't personally agree with the sentiment - I've had plenty of vehement disagreements with people on this site that I have found very enjoyable.  But those people brought facts and listened to arguments, instead of spouting nonsensical venom.

arebelspy

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2015, 08:30:25 PM »

MOD NOTE: To comment on the ongoing moderation discussion, some notes on how we (the mods) tend to act:

- We are reluctant to completely delete posts, instead we typically leave the text but use the strikethrough.  Several of you referred to this as "censorship," but we don't tend to think of that as censorship. Leaving the speech for anyone to read, but showing it is not okay.

- We very much appreciate the reports to moderators--this forum is too big for a handful of unpaid volunteers to read every post. Knowing when people are violating the forum rules is very helpful to keeping our forum a place people want to visit, and not just filled with trolls.

- If a thread has gone one awhile and it continues to be hostile, filled with bile and anger, we may eventually lock it, not simply due to less work on our part, but because everyone should have had a chance to have their say, and the thread is no longer adding anything anything except negativity. There is no reason to keep it open. Again, we don't view this as censorship; all the posts are there for anyone to view.

- The first amendment (since someone brought it up) says nothing about any non-government entity.  There is no right to free speech on a private forum. We could just delete any posts we don't care for. We don't do that, as we'd prefer discussion to be as free and open as possible, even when posts are things we moderators don't personally agree with or even find disgusting.  We do, however, ask that people follow the forum rules when posting, and try to leave content (and just strike through if necessary) at all times.

- We are reluctant to issue bans, especially permanent ones.

Feel free to PM me, or any other mod, with questions.

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mxt0133

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2015, 10:33:26 PM »
This was very educational for me as I tried to research the history and motive of ISIS.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/#article-comments

justajane

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2015, 08:50:43 AM »
While I don't agree with the overall tenor of EricL's thoughts, I do wish that more secular Muslims (and there are millions upon millions) would speak up in resistance against the barbarism of ISIS and other terrorists groups in their midst. But I can hardly blame them. They are likely afraid and just living their micro-lives just like we do. They are probably afraid of becoming like the many secular bloggers in Bangladesh who have been hacked to death (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33819032). Or the numerous cartoonists (of which Hebdo is just the most recent example) or novelists that are threatened and sometimes killed violently. That is a powerful motivation to stay silent.

I don't think it should be problematic to say that there are some barbaric elements to certain sectors of Islam at the moment. One reason I sometimes read the more sensationalistic news sources like the Daily Mail is that they will show more graphic and disturbing images coming out of Syria and elsewhere that reveal the horrific depths to which these groups have descended. The word medieval comes to mind. And as an historian, I am keenly aware that calling this "medieval" hearkens back to Christianity's barbarism. And while some Christians spout rhetoric implying that they might want to revisit these dark days (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/kevin-swanson-no-death-penalty-gays-until-they-have-time-repent), thankfully post-Enlightenment we are not cutting off each others' hands anymore when we steal things or stoning people to death.

A few months ago a missionary in Hungary connected to my church wrote a letter to us presenting his own view of the Syrian refugee crisis in his country. There were many things I objected to in the letter, but in hindsight, he was probably right to label American Christians calling for the wholesale welcoming of all those at the border as somewhat naive. He spoke of how several refugees he spoke to in Hungary had told him that "ISIS is in our midst." This is not to say that the refugees themselves were members of ISIS; rather, it is entirely possible and also probable that terrorists would pose as refugees to gain entry into Europe.

Now I would rather be naive than hateful, that's for sure. But post-Paris, I see his comments in a new light. What I still categorically reject is what he claimed and I often hear from Christians, namely that this type of violence against Christians and Jews is somehow inscribed in the Muslim faith and thereby unavoidable. You could have said the same thing about Christianity 1,000 years ago, but thankfully people are not bound by what old books or old prophets say and can and do evolve. The portions of the Muslim world that are secular and largely democratic are proof of this. 

Squirrel away

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2015, 08:59:03 AM »
Muslim leaders gathered at the Paris memorial yesterday to show their horror and sadness. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/15/muslim-and-jewish-leaders-gather-at-paris-concert-hall-memorial


astvilla

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2015, 09:44:12 AM »
I don't know why people are surprised by hateful rhetoric after an attack like this.

It's human nature to be quite vengeful after loved ones are killed.  I think any soldier in the military that lost a buddy would feel pretty pissed and angry at the ones responsible.  Heck it'd be hard for anyone to keep their emotions in check. 

What would actually be unnatural is to welcome more Muslims and not show any remorse.

Not saying we should go on a hate-filled Crusade against all Muslims, but the rhetoric from some is understandable, even more logical than the whole "standing together, kumbaya, us Muslims love you, yada yada" that doesn't do anything to actually stop this.




I can understand why it was censored. Much of what Eric wrote is true and does occur, except for the part about painting the entire country with that brush.

Yes there are cultural practices of child marriage and 'dancing boys'. It's supposably illegal but the laws are not enforced. These practices tend to occur in rural areas where education is low. It doesn't happen in the more 'civilised' parts of the country.


[/quote]

Western society has moved past the stage of having troops and armies roaming the streets.

So when you have armed gangs who look like they belong in a military unit mowing people down in callous cold blood on the streets of Paris, then yes it does leave a more lasting impression than it if occurred in downtown Baghdad.

Snowden may well be right, the West has spent trillions on 'security'. It's the wrong solution to the problem. You can't eliminate an ideology this way. You need to change the cultures at the source.

At some point (even lefties like me) need realise there are certain aspects of certain cultures that need to be eliminated. Cultures are not all equal and desirable of preservation.
[/quote]

But eliminating aspects of a culture takes decades if not centuries sometimes.  Racism is still in the US, women and men don't have perceived equal rights still.  It takes a long time to rip things out of society's souls.  Are we willing to wait that long for extremism to die out? 

ISIS are interpreting the Quran literally as it is.  They are very strict adherents to what Islam was traditionally about.  But even religions change.  Christians did, even the Pope is reconsidering issues.  But Islam  in comparison to other religions hasn't as much.  Yes there are many secular nations.  But there's quite a few more people who don't think that way.  You don't need so many people or even a country to start a raging fire anymore. 

I do blame media for portrayal of Muslims.  When Americans think of Muslims/Islam, they think Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan.  They don't think Asia so they're pretty ignorant on that.  The media doesn't focus on Muslims in other parts of the world as much that are secular.  They don't make headlines because they don't make as much trouble.  Although there was a Bali nightclub bombing but as always, people forget.

I do wonder what the tally is for innocents dying by Western powers since 2003 or by French airstrikes now or the bombing in Beirut.   

beltim

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2015, 11:00:36 AM »
While I don't agree with the overall tenor of EricL's thoughts, I do wish that more secular Muslims (and there are millions upon millions) would speak up in resistance against the barbarism of ISIS and other terrorists groups in their midst. But I can hardly blame them. They are likely afraid and just living their micro-lives just like we do. They are probably afraid of becoming like the many secular bloggers in Bangladesh who have been hacked to death (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33819032). Or the numerous cartoonists (of which Hebdo is just the most recent example) or novelists that are threatened and sometimes killed violently. That is a powerful motivation to stay silent.

They do!  Londoner supplied one link.  Here's an article that gives dozens more: http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/14/3722277/muslims-condemn-paris-attacks-pope-francis/

Islamic countries are fighting wars against extremism in several countries: not only against ISIS in cooperation with the US and France, but also in Yemen.

justajane

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Re: French terrorist attacks
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2015, 11:12:12 AM »
While I don't agree with the overall tenor of EricL's thoughts, I do wish that more secular Muslims (and there are millions upon millions) would speak up in resistance against the barbarism of ISIS and other terrorists groups in their midst. But I can hardly blame them. They are likely afraid and just living their micro-lives just like we do. They are probably afraid of becoming like the many secular bloggers in Bangladesh who have been hacked to death (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33819032). Or the numerous cartoonists (of which Hebdo is just the most recent example) or novelists that are threatened and sometimes killed violently. That is a powerful motivation to stay silent.

They do!  Londoner supplied one link.  Here's an article that gives dozens more: http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/14/3722277/muslims-condemn-paris-attacks-pope-francis/

Islamic countries are fighting wars against extremism in several countries: not only against ISIS in cooperation with the US and France, but also in Yemen.

Thanks for the link!