Author Topic: Firearms in the home  (Read 345933 times)

MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #850 on: April 09, 2016, 12:41:39 PM »

The likelihood of a preteen being able to do the above without training is unlikely.  As I said, once my kids get older I will reevaluate.  Comparing those operations to an unfenced pool or trampoline (the standard is my area for attractive nuisance), however is more than a stretch.

Before the age of google and youtube, I would have agreed with this statement.  Now I don't, because anyone old enough to read can look it up on the internet, and likely with a video demonstration.

Midwest

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #851 on: April 09, 2016, 01:04:46 PM »

The likelihood of a preteen being able to do the above without training is unlikely.  As I said, once my kids get older I will reevaluate.  Comparing those operations to an unfenced pool or trampoline (the standard is my area for attractive nuisance), however is more than a stretch.

Before the age of google and youtube, I would have agreed with this statement.  Now I don't, because anyone old enough to read can look it up on the internet, and likely with a video demonstration.

I think that would fall within the training mentioned but note the limitation to preteen.  Most 10 year olds aren't looking at how to operate an AR-15 or a glock on youtube.  It's also a little tougher to look into those things with filters installed on their electronic devices and supervision of their viewing habits.

My friend has a 14 year with a much too healthy interest in guns and is quite familiar with their operation.  If he were in our household, trigger locks would be installed. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 01:06:39 PM by Midwest »

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #852 on: April 09, 2016, 03:26:34 PM »
That settles it. I'm buying a AR-15.   What's should I look for?

First buy a stripped lower receiver locally. Don't pay more than $60. This part is legally the firearm so it will have to come from a dealer, with a background check and so on.

Then buy a parts kit and assemble it yourself. Palmetto State Armory is a good choice.

I would reccomend a kit that looks something like thus: 16 inch cold hammer forced barrel, flat top receiver, with magpul furniture. A kit like this will run you about $500.

Then get a fold away rear sight and fold away front sight. Magpul is another good inexpensive brand for these but there are others. Then go to Primary Arms and buy one of their inexpensive red dot sights and co- witness it with the folding sights.

For about $800 you have a fully kitted AR 15 that is better and cheaper than buying one off the shelf.

Thanks, I'll have to look into it.  I've just recently had the desire to buy one.  I guess just because some think that I shouldn't be able to own one.  I actually stopped at a local gun store to check them out.  The bushmaster, M&P, and  Ruger were around $700 or so.  Then they went up to around $1,800 for the nicer ones, Daniel Defence and I forget the other brand.

I'm in Florida, I thought all I had to do was wait for the next gun show.  I'll have no problem with a background check, I have my CCW Permit and have already been fingerprinted and all that.

The M&P's are nice, affordable and preferable to DPMS.  I've had trouble with certain magazines fitting DPMS.

FWIW my DPMS functions well with metal GI mags and with Magpul mags. I haven't tried anything else.

Midwest

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #853 on: April 09, 2016, 03:33:24 PM »
That settles it. I'm buying a AR-15.   What's should I look for?

First buy a stripped lower receiver locally. Don't pay more than $60. This part is legally the firearm so it will have to come from a dealer, with a background check and so on.

Then buy a parts kit and assemble it yourself. Palmetto State Armory is a good choice.

I would reccomend a kit that looks something like thus: 16 inch cold hammer forced barrel, flat top receiver, with magpul furniture. A kit like this will run you about $500.

Then get a fold away rear sight and fold away front sight. Magpul is another good inexpensive brand for these but there are others. Then go to Primary Arms and buy one of their inexpensive red dot sights and co- witness it with the folding sights.

For about $800 you have a fully kitted AR 15 that is better and cheaper than buying one off the shelf.

Thanks, I'll have to look into it.  I've just recently had the desire to buy one.  I guess just because some think that I shouldn't be able to own one.  I actually stopped at a local gun store to check them out.  The bushmaster, M&P, and  Ruger were around $700 or so.  Then they went up to around $1,800 for the nicer ones, Daniel Defence and I forget the other brand.

I'm in Florida, I thought all I had to do was wait for the next gun show.  I'll have no problem with a background check, I have my CCW Permit and have already been fingerprinted and all that.

The M&P's are nice, affordable and preferable to DPMS.  I've had trouble with certain magazines fitting DPMS.

FWIW my DPMS functions well with metal GI mags and with Magpul mags. I haven't tried anything else.

Magpul and federal equaled a blown primer for me.   Not sure if it didn't seat fully, but rifle doesn't like magpuls.  Had to take the trigger apart to fix as it ended up in the trigger pack.  Your mileage may vary.

GI mags are fine.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #854 on: April 09, 2016, 03:44:02 PM »
I wouldn't underestimate the ability of a 7-year-old boy to fiddle with a gun long enough to make it go 'boom'. And, some people are dumb enough to leave a chambered round behind after 'clearing' their gun. Then it's just a matter of pulling the trigger.

As an aside, there is a funny video of some African militia handing an AK to a chimp, and the chimp blowing off a whole mag in random directions.
https://youtu.be/6Vpuh6q2O_c

RetiredAt63

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #855 on: April 10, 2016, 04:14:05 PM »
This was so nested I hope I got the attribute right.

Way back in this thread someone pointed out that other countries that also have privately-owned guns have much lower mortality rates.

When I look at this table I can see why Canadian gun mortality rates are lower than American ones.  Look at the large proportion of deaths caused by handguns.  In Canada there are extremely few handguns legally owned by civilians (and yes, there are illegal ones, mostly smuggled in from the US and popular with gang shootings, I am not talking about them).  We have lots of long guns.   Even our original long-gun registry was focused mostly on guns that could fire large amounts of ammunition without reloading, and being more careful about emotionally unstable people having access, basically as a result of the Ecole Polytechnique shooting.  There has never been an overall consensus that no-one should own long guns.  The general consensus is that if someone needs a long gun (target practice, coyote control, whatever) that is a legitimate need.   Being able to take out multiple targets without reloading (like all those students) is not generally seen as a legitimate need.

By the way, nice to see so many Americans discussing appropriate and inappropriate use/storage/choice of guns.  From outside you all seem to be knee-jerk pro-gun the way you seem to think we are all knee-jerk anti-gun.

Question - not trying to be inflammatory - if there are so many laws already enacted about safe use/storage etc., whey are there so many accidental deaths?  People being stupid? complacent? not following them because they are not strictly enforced?  I mean, say for example the law in one state says guns must be stored unloaded in a gun safe, how often is there any enforcement of that condition?  I am having a hard time picturing the local municipality doing safety checks like fire departments do for smoke detectors. 

There is already data out there that rifles in general are used in very little homicides yet CA NY MA etc still have assault weapon bans and there are bills brought up in congress pretty often to reinstate a federal AWB. As far as accidental shootings go if a firearm is loaded and the trigger is pulled it will fire. I don't see a reason to ban a firearm that operates exactly how it was designed to do.


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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #856 on: April 10, 2016, 07:33:37 PM »

Question - not trying to be inflammatory - if there are so many laws already enacted about safe use/storage etc., whey are there so many accidental deaths? People being stupid? complacent? not following them because they are not strictly enforced?
Well, that has a lot to do with the accidents that do happen; but mostly the rate really isn't all that high, we just have a much higher absolute number of gun owners, if not per capita, than Canada.  It's also easier to have a self-inflicted wound type accident with a handgun, because it's difficult to point a long gun at yourself accidentally.

Quote

 I mean, say for example the law in one state says guns must be stored unloaded in a gun safe, how often is there any enforcement of that condition?  I am having a hard time picturing the local municipality doing safety checks like fire departments do for smoke detectors. 

No one does safety checks for smoke detectors either.  No, no one checks up on most gun owners; unless they own a class 2 or class 3 weapons, then the ATF does it every now and again.

MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #857 on: April 10, 2016, 07:34:24 PM »
Most 10 year olds aren't looking at how to operate an AR-15 or a glock on youtube.

I have 8 year olds that look up anything on youtube.

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #858 on: April 11, 2016, 10:36:37 AM »

Question - not trying to be inflammatory - if there are so many laws already enacted about safe use/storage etc., whey are there so many accidental deaths? People being stupid? complacent? not following them because they are not strictly enforced?
Well, that has a lot to do with the accidents that do happen; but mostly the rate really isn't all that high, we just have a much higher absolute number of gun owners, if not per capita, than Canada. It's also easier to have a self-inflicted wound type accident with a handgun, because it's difficult to point a long gun at yourself accidentally.

Quote

 I mean, say for example the law in one state says guns must be stored unloaded in a gun safe, how often is there any enforcement of that condition?  I am having a hard time picturing the local municipality doing safety checks like fire departments do for smoke detectors. 

No one does safety checks for smoke detectors either.  No, no one checks up on most gun owners; unless they own a class 2 or class 3 weapons, then the ATF does it every now and again.

The rate itself is much higher in the US, IIRC, much like DUI deaths are:

Canada, 2009-2012, 598 deaths across four years
USA, 2014, 9,967 deaths in one year

There are 66x as many DUI-related deaths in the US, despite a population multiplier of nine.

Midwest

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #859 on: April 11, 2016, 10:40:10 AM »
Most 10 year olds aren't looking at how to operate an AR-15 or a glock on youtube.

I have 8 year olds that look up anything on youtube.

From the original post -

"It's also a little tougher to look into those things with filters installed on their electronic devices and supervision of their viewing habits."

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MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #861 on: April 11, 2016, 11:57:57 AM »
Most 10 year olds aren't looking at how to operate an AR-15 or a glock on youtube.

I have 8 year olds that look up anything on youtube.

From the original post -

"It's also a little tougher to look into those things with filters installed on their electronic devices and supervision of their viewing habits."

I think that you are assuming too much.  If they can't see the relevant videos on my network, that does not prevent them from doing so at a friend's house, or with a friend's smartphone.  And yes, I've seen 9 year olds with smartphones.  Beyond that, I was breaking into networks for kicks at 12 back in the late 80's. (Before that was actually made a felony)  I'd wager that my own network isn't that much of a challenge to a motivated teenager with a bit of computer skills, since I haven't kept up with that scene, and I'm unwilling to spend a couple hundred dollars for a security & monitoring program mostly to keep my teens away from porn.  I still consider a decent gun safe a wiser path, at least for my family.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #862 on: April 11, 2016, 12:00:17 PM »
Most 10 year olds aren't looking at how to operate an AR-15 or a glock on youtube.

I have 8 year olds that look up anything on youtube.

From the original post -

"It's also a little tougher to look into those things with filters installed on their electronic devices and supervision of their viewing habits."

I think that you are assuming too much.  If they can't see the relevant videos on my network, that does not prevent them from doing so at a friend's house, or with a friend's smartphone.  And yes, I've seen 9 year olds with smartphones.  Beyond that, I was breaking into networks for kicks at 12 back in the late 80's. (Before that was actually made a felony)  I'd wager that my own network isn't that much of a challenge to a motivated teenager with a bit of computer skills, since I haven't kept up with that scene, and I'm unwilling to spend a couple hundred dollars for a security & monitoring program mostly to keep my teens away from porn.  I still consider a decent gun safe a wiser path, at least for my family.

Or...education?  If there are firearms in the house, there's absolutely no excuse for a child to learn how they operate via the internet.  I've been shooting handguns since I was 9.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #863 on: April 11, 2016, 12:06:47 PM »

Question - not trying to be inflammatory - if there are so many laws already enacted about safe use/storage etc., whey are there so many accidental deaths? People being stupid? complacent? not following them because they are not strictly enforced?
Well, that has a lot to do with the accidents that do happen; but mostly the rate really isn't all that high, we just have a much higher absolute number of gun owners, if not per capita, than Canada. It's also easier to have a self-inflicted wound type accident with a handgun, because it's difficult to point a long gun at yourself accidentally.

Quote

 I mean, say for example the law in one state says guns must be stored unloaded in a gun safe, how often is there any enforcement of that condition?  I am having a hard time picturing the local municipality doing safety checks like fire departments do for smoke detectors. 

No one does safety checks for smoke detectors either.  No, no one checks up on most gun owners; unless they own a class 2 or class 3 weapons, then the ATF does it every now and again.

The rate itself is much higher in the US, IIRC, much like DUI deaths are:


I don't understand your point.  Canada & the US are divergent cultures, and I already noted that it's harder for some kinds of accidents to occur with longarms than handguns.  Those are two independent variables, both of which have an enormous number of contributing variables between nations that makes comparing them largely meaningless.

MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #864 on: April 11, 2016, 12:09:40 PM »
Most 10 year olds aren't looking at how to operate an AR-15 or a glock on youtube.

I have 8 year olds that look up anything on youtube.

From the original post -

"It's also a little tougher to look into those things with filters installed on their electronic devices and supervision of their viewing habits."

I think that you are assuming too much.  If they can't see the relevant videos on my network, that does not prevent them from doing so at a friend's house, or with a friend's smartphone.  And yes, I've seen 9 year olds with smartphones.  Beyond that, I was breaking into networks for kicks at 12 back in the late 80's. (Before that was actually made a felony)  I'd wager that my own network isn't that much of a challenge to a motivated teenager with a bit of computer skills, since I haven't kept up with that scene, and I'm unwilling to spend a couple hundred dollars for a security & monitoring program mostly to keep my teens away from porn.  I still consider a decent gun safe a wiser path, at least for my family.

Or...education?  If there are firearms in the house, there's absolutely no excuse for a child to learn how they operate via the internet.  I've been shooting handguns since I was 9.

I was arguing the point from the perspective of a family that only a parent shoots, but I agree here too.  My oldest daughter got her first 22lr at her 9th birthday,  and her little brother at 10.  And we keep them all locked up, because the 3,6 &7 year olds are still untrustworthy.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #865 on: April 11, 2016, 12:39:46 PM »

Question - not trying to be inflammatory - if there are so many laws already enacted about safe use/storage etc., whey are there so many accidental deaths? People being stupid? complacent? not following them because they are not strictly enforced?
Well, that has a lot to do with the accidents that do happen; but mostly the rate really isn't all that high, we just have a much higher absolute number of gun owners, if not per capita, than Canada. It's also easier to have a self-inflicted wound type accident with a handgun, because it's difficult to point a long gun at yourself accidentally.

Quote

 I mean, say for example the law in one state says guns must be stored unloaded in a gun safe, how often is there any enforcement of that condition?  I am having a hard time picturing the local municipality doing safety checks like fire departments do for smoke detectors. 

No one does safety checks for smoke detectors either.  No, no one checks up on most gun owners; unless they own a class 2 or class 3 weapons, then the ATF does it every now and again.

The rate itself is much higher in the US, IIRC, much like DUI deaths are:


I don't understand your point.  Canada & the US are divergent cultures, and I already noted that it's harder for some kinds of accidents to occur with longarms than handguns.  Those are two independent variables, both of which have an enormous number of contributing variables between nations that makes comparing them largely meaningless.

My point is that gun deaths aren't the only thing where the rate is higher than Canada, despite there being laws. Some people think that laws magically make problems go away.

Midwest

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #866 on: April 11, 2016, 12:51:41 PM »
Most 10 year olds aren't looking at how to operate an AR-15 or a glock on youtube.

I have 8 year olds that look up anything on youtube.

From the original post -

"It's also a little tougher to look into those things with filters installed on their electronic devices and supervision of their viewing habits."

I think that you are assuming too much.  If they can't see the relevant videos on my network, that does not prevent them from doing so at a friend's house, or with a friend's smartphone.  And yes, I've seen 9 year olds with smartphones.  Beyond that, I was breaking into networks for kicks at 12 back in the late 80's. (Before that was actually made a felony)  I'd wager that my own network isn't that much of a challenge to a motivated teenager with a bit of computer skills, since I haven't kept up with that scene, and I'm unwilling to spend a couple hundred dollars for a security & monitoring program mostly to keep my teens away from porn.  I still consider a decent gun safe a wiser path, at least for my family.

If a 9 year old who has never been shown how to operate a firearm (trained) is sneaking into the closet while I'm home (my youngest isn't left home alone), using the internet to determine which ammunition, then using the internet to learn to charge and operate, I'm not sure the guns are secure in a safe (there videos on safe cracking as well).  My youngest isn't allowed to use the internet without us present BTW.

Once my youngest learns to shoot, trigger locks will be installed.  There are those in this thread acting as if safes should be mandatory and/or unloaded guns are easy to load and operate for the untrained.  I it's just as likely child will steal a car (keys are readily accessible) than load and operate a firearm.  Despite that, we aren't putting the car keys in a safe.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #867 on: April 11, 2016, 01:00:32 PM »
My kid is 3.  Currently, there is no possible way she has the dexterity, strength, or knowledge how to chamber and fire a round in any of my unsecured firearms. 

When she gets older, I imagine there will be a time period where she (or her friends) has the ability but lacks maturity, in which case the firearms will be stored differently.  And then she will get older still, and have the maturity, and I can go back to storing it as I do now (condition 3, loaded but without a chambered round).
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spartana

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #868 on: April 11, 2016, 01:03:08 PM »

Question - not trying to be inflammatory - if there are so many laws already enacted about safe use/storage etc., whey are there so many accidental deaths? People being stupid? complacent? not following them because they are not strictly enforced?
Well, that has a lot to do with the accidents that do happen; but mostly the rate really isn't all that high, we just have a much higher absolute number of gun owners, if not per capita, than Canada. It's also easier to have a self-inflicted wound type accident with a handgun, because it's difficult to point a long gun at yourself accidentally.

Quote

 I mean, say for example the law in one state says guns must be stored unloaded in a gun safe, how often is there any enforcement of that condition?  I am having a hard time picturing the local municipality doing safety checks like fire departments do for smoke detectors. 

No one does safety checks for smoke detectors either.  No, no one checks up on most gun owners; unless they own a class 2 or class 3 weapons, then the ATF does it every now and again.

The rate itself is much higher in the US, IIRC, much like DUI deaths are:


I don't understand your point.  Canada & the US are divergent cultures, and I already noted that it's harder for some kinds of accidents to occur with longarms than handguns.  Those are two independent variables, both of which have an enormous number of contributing variables between nations that makes comparing them largely meaningless.

My point is that gun deaths aren't the only thing where the rate is higher than Canada, despite there being laws. Some people think that laws magically make problems go away.
This. For example I'm sure there is a much higher accidental child downing rate in Calif compared to all of Canada just because we have tons of swimming pools that are used year round (as well as unfrozen ocean, lakes and rivers). Even with laws that may require locked fences around pools or parents around to watch kids,  kids still probably drown in higher numbers than in Canada because of greater numbers of available swimming areas.

Also some adults ARE very careless when it comes to securing their pools or watching their kids. So combine a larger number of water access areas with careless adults and you get a higher drowning rate. This goes for handguns or any firearm  (and pretty much anything else) too.  Leave an unloaded and locked handgun around and nothing will likely happen. Be a careless parent and leave a unlocked and loaded/ chambered handgun around with the safety off and kids around and it can cause an accidental shooting.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 01:10:06 PM by spartana »
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #869 on: April 11, 2016, 08:43:42 PM »
That settles it. I'm buying a AR-15.   What's should I look for?

First buy a stripped lower receiver locally. Don't pay more than $60. This part is legally the firearm so it will have to come from a dealer, with a background check and so on.

Then buy a parts kit and assemble it yourself. Palmetto State Armory is a good choice.

I would reccomend a kit that looks something like thus: 16 inch cold hammer forced barrel, flat top receiver, with magpul furniture. A kit like this will run you about $500.

Then get a fold away rear sight and fold away front sight. Magpul is another good inexpensive brand for these but there are others. Then go to Primary Arms and buy one of their inexpensive red dot sights and co- witness it with the folding sights.

For about $800 you have a fully kitted AR 15 that is better and cheaper than buying one off the shelf.

Cold forged barrel.  It was probably a typo on your part but since he's not familiar I wanted to point that out.  Also make sure the barrel is chambered in 5.56 as there are slight variations between 5.56 and .223.  Without going into a lot of detail, you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 barrel but not necessarily the other way around. 

I would also recommend purchasing a complete upper rather than assembling because things can go wrong if you don't know what you're doing.  The lower you can do with basic tools and less chance of screwing things up.  Although be prepared for little springs to go flying across the room to never be found again.  I would keep it simple, shoot it a bunch at the range, then figure out what you want to modify. 

You should also do some research on direct impingement vs piston.  They both have their pros and cons.

Primm

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #870 on: April 11, 2016, 09:14:32 PM »
I didn't see this referenced, sorry if this is a duplicate

http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/scary-trend-in-australian-gun-crime-with-more-than-200-shooting-deaths-a-year/news-story/374b4e55fdbb1718079c36979245d50c

From that article (which by the way is a Murdoch publication and has a habit of sensationalising stuff):

"Most firearms deaths are suicides."

So (from the article, if you take what they say as gospel) -

1. Firearms deaths occur in Australia at a rate of 0.93 per 100,000 per year. What's the rate in the US? Oh yeah, 10.54. More than 10x the number per head of population.

2. Most of those deaths are people killing themselves deliberately, according to the same story.

Not really sure how either of these things is an argument against gun control...

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #871 on: April 12, 2016, 02:19:55 PM »
I didn't see this referenced, sorry if this is a duplicate

http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/scary-trend-in-australian-gun-crime-with-more-than-200-shooting-deaths-a-year/news-story/374b4e55fdbb1718079c36979245d50c

From that article (which by the way is a Murdoch publication and has a habit of sensationalising stuff):

"Most firearms deaths are suicides."

So (from the article, if you take what they say as gospel) -

1. Firearms deaths occur in Australia at a rate of 0.93 per 100,000 per year. What's the rate in the US? Oh yeah, 10.54. More than 10x the number per head of population.

2. Most of those deaths are people killing themselves deliberately, according to the same story.

Not really sure how either of these things is an argument against gun control...

Not sure how it's an argument for it either.


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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #872 on: April 13, 2016, 04:12:18 AM »
I didn't see this referenced, sorry if this is a duplicate

http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/scary-trend-in-australian-gun-crime-with-more-than-200-shooting-deaths-a-year/news-story/374b4e55fdbb1718079c36979245d50c

From that article (which by the way is a Murdoch publication and has a habit of sensationalising stuff):

"Most firearms deaths are suicides."

So (from the article, if you take what they say as gospel) -

1. Firearms deaths occur in Australia at a rate of 0.93 per 100,000 per year. What's the rate in the US? Oh yeah, 10.54. More than 10x the number per head of population.

2. Most of those deaths are people killing themselves deliberately, according to the same story.

Not really sure how either of these things is an argument against gun control...

Not sure how it's an argument for it either.

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Primm

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #873 on: April 13, 2016, 06:11:03 AM »
I didn't see this referenced, sorry if this is a duplicate

http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/scary-trend-in-australian-gun-crime-with-more-than-200-shooting-deaths-a-year/news-story/374b4e55fdbb1718079c36979245d50c

From that article (which by the way is a Murdoch publication and has a habit of sensationalising stuff):

"Most firearms deaths are suicides."

So (from the article, if you take what they say as gospel) -

1. Firearms deaths occur in Australia at a rate of 0.93 per 100,000 per year. What's the rate in the US? Oh yeah, 10.54. More than 10x the number per head of population.

2. Most of those deaths are people killing themselves deliberately, according to the same story.

Not really sure how either of these things is an argument against gun control...

Not sure how it's an argument for it either.

Um, it isn't?

Quote
Nice.

I'm totally confused. In the words of a very famous Australian, "Please explain?".

ncornilsen

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #874 on: April 13, 2016, 08:14:35 AM »
I didn't see this referenced, sorry if this is a duplicate

http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/scary-trend-in-australian-gun-crime-with-more-than-200-shooting-deaths-a-year/news-story/374b4e55fdbb1718079c36979245d50c

From that article (which by the way is a Murdoch publication and has a habit of sensationalising stuff):

"Most firearms deaths are suicides."

So (from the article, if you take what they say as gospel) -

1. Firearms deaths occur in Australia at a rate of 0.93 per 100,000 per year. What's the rate in the US? Oh yeah, 10.54. More than 10x the number per head of population.

2. Most of those deaths are people killing themselves deliberately, according to the same story.

Not really sure how either of these things is an argument against gun control...

Not sure how it's an argument for it either.

Nice.

I wasn't exactly responding to hard-hitting analysis.

If most firearm deaths are suicides, then the user had an intent to kill. Taking away the gun is like taking a mechanic's 14mm wrench and leaving him with a 14mm socket and ratchet, channel locks, and an adjustable wrench.  I get that firearms are the 'quickest' way of doing the deed, and are what people with the INTENT for suicide will gravitate toward, but take them away, and another method will be found.



Same thing with the overall murder rates - In austrailia, .93/100k of 1.1 homocides/100K are with a gun. (85%) In the US, 3.4 of 3.8/100K are with a gun (89%). That seems like, within the certainty of any statistic, the SAME rate of use of firearms in murders either place. Ergo, controlled versus less controlled gun ownership STILL results in them being used in about 90% of murders. So again, Why bother?

ncornilsen

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #875 on: April 13, 2016, 01:01:08 PM »
Many rationalize it, and feel their views are very well founded, which, based upon their worldview, they may be. That said, it amounts to a fear reaction. Your fear may be valid, but be aware that that is what it is. When you act upon a fear reaction, often your decisions depart from rational, practical thought.

Indeed. The anti-gun types have an irrational fear of firearms... a relatively miniscule amount of guns ever are used to kill another. The pro firearms types have an irrational fear that they'll need a gun to protect themselves... a relatively small amount of people arm mugged, robbed or carjacked, and in this country, we haven't had the need for an armed resistance to a tyrant. (counter aurgument: yet.)

The difference is that the anti-gun types seek to take away one tool of death, when dozens more are readily available, and nothing is done about the intent. The field of things the pro-gun types 'fear' is leveled quite quickly when they have firearms.


Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #876 on: April 14, 2016, 04:32:50 AM »
I didn't see this referenced, sorry if this is a duplicate

http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/scary-trend-in-australian-gun-crime-with-more-than-200-shooting-deaths-a-year/news-story/374b4e55fdbb1718079c36979245d50c

From that article (which by the way is a Murdoch publication and has a habit of sensationalising stuff):

"Most firearms deaths are suicides."

So (from the article, if you take what they say as gospel) -

1. Firearms deaths occur in Australia at a rate of 0.93 per 100,000 per year. What's the rate in the US? Oh yeah, 10.54. More than 10x the number per head of population.

2. Most of those deaths are people killing themselves deliberately, according to the same story.

Not really sure how either of these things is an argument against gun control...

Not sure how it's an argument for it either.

Nice.

I wasn't exactly responding to hard-hitting analysis.

If most firearm deaths are suicides, then the user had an intent to kill. Taking away the gun is like taking a mechanic's 14mm wrench and leaving him with a 14mm socket and ratchet, channel locks, and an adjustable wrench.  I get that firearms are the 'quickest' way of doing the deed, and are what people with the INTENT for suicide will gravitate toward, but take them away, and another method will be found.



Same thing with the overall murder rates - In austrailia, .93/100k of 1.1 homocides/100K are with a gun. (85%) In the US, 3.4 of 3.8/100K are with a gun (89%). That seems like, within the certainty of any statistic, the SAME rate of use of firearms in murders either place. Ergo, controlled versus less controlled gun ownership STILL results in them being used in about 90% of murders. So again, Why bother?

Awesome post. And PFHC's follow up as well.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #877 on: April 15, 2016, 02:48:01 PM »
Out to lunch today with a buddy. Sat about four feet from a group of gentlemen who were carrying concealed weapons. Not sure if they were off-duty officers or gun-nut citizens, but there was no shoot-out with the wait staff, no accidents and no wild-west draw downs.  If they hadn't been sitting down, I would probably never have seen the tiny bottom of their holsters and never known they were carrying beneath their shirts. Probably more guns out there in public than people realize, and yet very few accidents.

Stay safe and pay attention no matter where you are.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #878 on: April 20, 2016, 05:39:38 PM »
I don't keep a firearm in my home. My area is fairly safe so that I feel a fire arm would not protect me from anything. I do not own anything worth the life of another human, so protection against theft is unnecessary for me. If it came to protecting my own life, a gun is a crapshoot. Too many factors would need to work to my advantage: it would have to be at hand when needed, I would have to be competent to use it, I would have to have will to kill another person without hesitation, I would have to be faster than my assailant. I also have suffered anxiety and depression so, should a mix of terrible circumstances arise, a gun could pose more of a threat to me than anyone else.

A firearm is just not for me. Others have their opinion, but for my life, my insurance is enough of a weapon.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #879 on: April 20, 2016, 06:27:24 PM »
So now that Hillary has more or less wrapped up the Democratic ticket, are any firearm owners going to be stocking up on anything or wait for the eventual frenzy?

spartana

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #880 on: April 20, 2016, 06:51:20 PM »
Out to lunch today with a buddy. Sat about four feet from a group of gentlemen who were carrying concealed weapons. Not sure if they were off-duty officers or gun-nut citizens, but there was no shoot-out with the wait staff, no accidents and no wild-west draw downs.  If they hadn't been sitting down, I would probably never have seen the tiny bottom of their holsters and never known they were carrying beneath their shirts. Probably more guns out there in public than people realize, and yet very few accidents.

Stay safe and pay attention no matter where you are.
And often carried by those you'd least expect - Granny at bingo? Soccer Mom cheering from the sidelines? That perky blonde with a pony tail and pink "Hello Kitty" sweatshirt eating a veggie burger after her bike ride? Ok so that's me ;).  The stereotype of the brawny dude with the big truck and cowboy hat may be true but really you just never know.
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spartana

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #881 on: April 20, 2016, 06:56:05 PM »
I don't keep a firearm in my home. My area is fairly safe so that I feel a fire arm would not protect me from anything. I do not own anything worth the life of another human, so protection against theft is unnecessary for me. If it came to protecting my own life, a gun is a crapshoot. Too many factors would need to work to my advantage: it would have to be at hand when needed, I would have to be competent to use it, I would have to have will to kill another person without hesitation, I would have to be faster than my assailant. I also have suffered anxiety and depression so, should a mix of terrible circumstances arise, a gun could pose more of a threat to me than anyone else.

A firearm is just not for me. Others have their opinion, but for my life, my insurance is enough of a weapon.
nice to see some more on topic discussion but curious about your last statement about insurance. Do you mean homeowners insurance to replace valuables stolen?,As a woman who lives alone I'm not much concerned about any if my stuff but more about personal protection from assault if someone breaks in while I'm there.
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brett2k07

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #882 on: April 21, 2016, 06:23:16 AM »
So now that Hillary has more or less wrapped up the Democratic ticket, are any firearm owners going to be stocking up on anything or wait for the eventual frenzy?

I've been saving for an AR-15 and an M&P Shield 9mm for EDC (every day carry). Of course I'm constantly buying ammo as well. I live in a fairly conservative state, so I'm not worried about state regulation, but if it starts looking like there's going to be some federal regulation handed down, I'll probably speed up the timeline. I'm a member of the NRA, so I get pretty regular updates on pro and anti-gun legislation that's being tossed around.

Gone

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #883 on: April 21, 2016, 11:23:15 AM »
nice to see some more on topic discussion but curious about your last statement about insurance. Do you mean homeowners insurance to replace valuables stolen?,As a woman who lives alone I'm not much concerned about any if my stuff but more about personal protection from assault if someone breaks in while I'm there.

Yeah, insurance is enough for me. There's only two things I could lose if someone broke into my home: my stuff or my life. My stuff isn't important. My life isn't protected enough by a gun to warrant me owning one.

That's just me. For you it might be different.

Tom Bri

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #884 on: April 21, 2016, 12:03:34 PM »
nice to see some more on topic discussion but curious about your last statement about insurance. Do you mean homeowners insurance to replace valuables stolen?,As a woman who lives alone I'm not much concerned about any if my stuff but more about personal protection from assault if someone breaks in while I'm there.

Yeah, insurance is enough for me. There's only two things I could lose if someone broke into my home: my stuff or my life. My stuff isn't important. My life isn't protected enough by a gun to warrant me owning one.

That's just me. For you it might be different.

I understand your point. I wouldn't suggest anyone with serious depressive symptoms to get a gun, unless, possibly if there were huge offsetting circumstances. For someone in a fairly safe area...no.
I agree with you that my 'stuff' isn't worth anyone's life. The problem is, a thief has already determined otherwise! But that is really a side-issue for me. I live in a republic, and one of the traditional duties of citizens of a republic is defense. It is one of my civic duties, along with things like picking up trash, aiding injured people, helping out in a disaster, giving CPR. If you want to live in a nice, peaceful, responsible society, some members have to be willing to do these things. Not every citizen for every job, but a good number for each. So I have no problem with you not being willing to do this particular duty, since I assume you pick up other duties.

Gone

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #885 on: April 21, 2016, 01:29:02 PM »

I understand your point. I wouldn't suggest anyone with serious depressive symptoms to get a gun, unless, possibly if there were huge offsetting circumstances. For someone in a fairly safe area...no.
I agree with you that my 'stuff' isn't worth anyone's life. The problem is, a thief has already determined otherwise! But that is really a side-issue for me. I live in a republic, and one of the traditional duties of citizens of a republic is defense. It is one of my civic duties, along with things like picking up trash, aiding injured people, helping out in a disaster, giving CPR. If you want to live in a nice, peaceful, responsible society, some members have to be willing to do these things. Not every citizen for every job, but a good number for each. So I have no problem with you not being willing to do this particular duty, since I assume you pick up other duties.

Indeed, I do. My work keeps me very much involved in the civic duties of my community, so I feel quite comfortable with my level of input into society through work, taxes, and education. I like your attitude towards community cooperation. Very responsible.

spartana

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #886 on: April 21, 2016, 04:32:15 PM »
nice to see some more on topic discussion but curious about your last statement about insurance. Do you mean homeowners insurance to replace valuables stolen?,As a woman who lives alone I'm not much concerned about any if my stuff but more about personal protection from assault if someone breaks in while I'm there.

Yeah, insurance is enough for me. There's only two things I could lose if someone broke into my home: my stuff or my life. My stuff isn't important. My life isn't protected enough by a gun to warrant me owning one.

That's just me. For you it might be different.
yeah I'm kind of the opposite - don't care about my stuff and don't own anything even worth insuring (except my guns hahaha!) but highly value my life and body and have no way to get "replacement insurance" for those so want to do what I can to protect them.  But I definitely understand that isn't the (paranoid?insecure? unnecessary?) mindset of most people. I'm OK with that.
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Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #887 on: April 21, 2016, 06:00:43 PM »
Well IMO -- and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there with contrary opinion; I'm not clear on what Americans are so scared of that they feel they need a gun.  Hunting is another thing - I grew up around that but stopped when I was much younger. 

I've lived in a very rural area on 40 acres and in a not-so-desirable place in D.C., and a range within that and never felt the need for a gun. 

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #888 on: April 21, 2016, 07:11:54 PM »
Well IMO -- and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there with contrary opinion; I'm not clear on what Americans are so scared of that they feel they need a gun.  Hunting is another thing - I grew up around that but stopped when I was much younger. 

I've lived in a very rural area on 40 acres and in a not-so-desirable place in D.C., and a range within that and never felt the need for a gun.

You do realize that many people own guns because they enjoy shooting and they just simply want to...?

Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #889 on: April 21, 2016, 09:03:46 PM »
Yes, and was not addressing that.   Again, IMO -- that's an "interesting" hobby.  There's lots of places out here int he west where you can find gravel pits where everybody and there brother brings bottles, cans, sofas, chairs, and all sorts of appliances to shoot up.  Let's say the leftovers are not overly aesthetic

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #890 on: April 21, 2016, 09:36:15 PM »
Yes, and was not addressing that.   Again, IMO -- that's an "interesting" hobby.  There's lots of places out here int he west where you can find gravel pits where everybody and there brother brings bottles, cans, sofas, chairs, and all sorts of appliances to shoot up.  Let's say the leftovers are not overly aesthetic

Perhaps I misunderstood your generalization, then.

spartana

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #891 on: April 21, 2016, 10:01:12 PM »
Well IMO -- and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there with contrary opinion; I'm not clear on what Americans are so scared of that they feel they need a gun.  Hunting is another thing - I grew up around that but stopped when I was much younger. 

I've lived in a very rural area on 40 acres and in a not-so-desirable place in D.C., and a range within that and never felt the need for a gun.
I can't speak for others but it gives me greater freedom due to feeling more secure - in my home or when out hiking, camping or traveling alone. I think personal (bad) experiences mat play a part for many people too.  I know several women who were sexually assaulted or raped by strangers in their own home during break in in very upscale and low crime areas (and I was dragged from inside my locked car by a man when I broke down in a remote area - he just broke my window and hauled me out - fortunately I was able to get away and hid all night). With a gun I just feel more secure doing the stuff I like to do. Plus I carried a firearm for years for my job so it feel natural to me.
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Cyaphas

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #892 on: April 22, 2016, 12:13:49 AM »

And often carried by those you'd least expect - Granny at bingo? Soccer Mom cheering from the sidelines? That perky blonde with a pony tail and pink "Hello Kitty" sweatshirt eating a veggie burger after her bike ride? Ok so that's me ;).  The stereotype of the brawny dude with the big truck and cowboy hat may be true but really you just never know.


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Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #893 on: April 22, 2016, 05:24:20 AM »
Well IMO -- and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there with contrary opinion; I'm not clear on what Americans are so scared of that they feel they need a gun.  Hunting is another thing - I grew up around that but stopped when I was much younger. 

I've lived in a very rural area on 40 acres and in a not-so-desirable place in D.C., and a range within that and never felt the need for a gun.

I feel that way about a lot of things. Sadly, I live in America and the citizens have choices of things to own, for any reason and often no reason at all. It makes me scared and sad to think of all those people out there free to do whatever they want, without permission from anyone else. Hopefully this will someday change; until then I just shake my head at crazy people who do things that I don't enjoy or own things I think are silly.
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brett2k07

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #894 on: April 22, 2016, 06:09:01 AM »
nice to see some more on topic discussion but curious about your last statement about insurance. Do you mean homeowners insurance to replace valuables stolen?,As a woman who lives alone I'm not much concerned about any if my stuff but more about personal protection from assault if someone breaks in while I'm there.

Yeah, insurance is enough for me. There's only two things I could lose if someone broke into my home: my stuff or my life. My stuff isn't important. My life isn't protected enough by a gun to warrant me owning one.

That's just me. For you it might be different.
yeah I'm kind of the opposite - don't care about my stuff and don't own anything even worth insuring (except my guns hahaha!) but highly value my life and body and have no way to get "replacement insurance" for those so want to do what I can to protect them.  But I definitely understand that isn't the (paranoid?insecure? unnecessary?) mindset of most people. I'm OK with that.

I have enough sentimental value in my guns (most are family heirlooms) that I purchased a pretty expensive safe to put them in. Insurance just isn't enough for me when it comes to those. I'd rather have the gun than the money any day of the week. Same with my deceased grandfather's wedding ring. I have a separate rider on my insurance for it, but no amount of money could ever truly replace it so it also sits in the safe. My pistol on my nightstand is a form of insurance against the unlikely event that someone with intentions other than petty burglary targets our home. My wife had a knife put to her throat by an ex-boyfriend several years ago, so I really don't take any chances anymore. While it's unlikely anything like that will ever happen again, the only insurance I have is my pistol.

Beyond the safety and personal protection mumbo jumbo, I also have a fascination with the engineering and craftsmanship that goes into making a gun. More specifically, shotguns. Some of the shotguns out there are just incredible pieces of artwork. Because of this, I want to own as many beautiful guns as I can afford to own. For those who are interested, here's a YouTube video of a Holland & Holland side-by-side being made.

https://youtu.be/RLxDRb7yWnw

ender

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #895 on: April 22, 2016, 06:53:10 AM »
If most firearm deaths are suicides, then the user had an intent to kill. Taking away the gun is like taking a mechanic's 14mm wrench and leaving him with a 14mm socket and ratchet, channel locks, and an adjustable wrench.  I get that firearms are the 'quickest' way of doing the deed, and are what people with the INTENT for suicide will gravitate toward, but take them away, and another method will be found.

One thing regarding suicides to consider is what percentage of attempts are successful.

I suspect the rate of "first time attempt success" is much higher with firearms than other means.

Gin1984

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #896 on: April 22, 2016, 09:01:13 AM »
If most firearm deaths are suicides, then the user had an intent to kill. Taking away the gun is like taking a mechanic's 14mm wrench and leaving him with a 14mm socket and ratchet, channel locks, and an adjustable wrench.  I get that firearms are the 'quickest' way of doing the deed, and are what people with the INTENT for suicide will gravitate toward, but take them away, and another method will be found.

One thing regarding suicides to consider is what percentage of attempts are successful.

I suspect the rate of "first time attempt success" is much higher with firearms than other means.
It is, which is one of the reasons the rate of suicide for males is higher than for females (what means is used)..

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #897 on: April 23, 2016, 04:01:53 PM »
Well IMO -- and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there with contrary opinion; I'm not clear on what Americans are so scared of that they feel they need a gun.  Hunting is another thing - I grew up around that but stopped when I was much younger. 

I've lived in a very rural area on 40 acres and in a not-so-desirable place in D.C., and a range within that and never felt the need for a gun.

This is something I run into a lot, especially when talking to non-americans. This idea that guns are some extreme thing that should require some justification. Why do you feel the need to own a gun? What are you scared of? Etc.

These questions are natural coming from someone who sees a gun as a strange and foreign object.

Many Americans don't see things this way. We own guns. Always have. Parents owned them when we were kids. They are common everyday objects.

So when asked "what are you so scared of that you need a gun?" A lot of us really don't know how to respond to that. I'm not scared of anything. I own and carry a gun... because. It is a normal and everyday thing for me, there is no over - riding reason I can point to.

Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #898 on: April 23, 2016, 06:41:27 PM »
Well, why not carry a bazooka  then?  Still don't see the point.  Especially given that the percentages show that a gun in the house is, by far, more likely to kill a relative or a child than an intruder. 

I grew up around hunters, but none of us felt the need to be packing while we went shopping for groceries.  Seemed rather silly.

Cyaphas

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #899 on: April 23, 2016, 10:59:25 PM »
Well, why not carry a bazooka  then?  Still don't see the point.  Especially given that the percentages show that a gun in the house is, by far, more likely to kill a relative or a child than an intruder. 

I grew up around hunters, but none of us felt the need to be packing while we went shopping for groceries.  Seemed rather silly.

Odds-wise, at the time of you growing up, it was illegal for them to carry. I'm willing to bet that some of them would've if it weren't illegal.
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