Author Topic: Firearms in the home  (Read 345264 times)

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8157
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2500 on: March 12, 2017, 09:20:20 AM »
Swedish educational video showing how you can scare off an attacking brown bear: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TtC14cpwwXg

Polars are a different story. They have no instinctual fear of anything. Which is why the authorities on Svalbard won't let you travel outside the center of longyearbyen without a rifle. Still, if you shoot a polar, you have to prove that you did everything you could to scare it off first.

Polars are scary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZY3lmiIj2g
A government that forces someone to carry a gun is similarly scary.

Interesting that the frightening government responsible for that rule has been governing one of the most consistently happy, and least corrupt countries in the world (for decades).

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3349
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2501 on: March 12, 2017, 09:27:20 AM »
Meh. Seems at least one dead bag of fur in WI would disagree that guns are not used to kill bears in reality. :)

I didn't say that hand guns aren't used to kill bears.

My contention (and what you also pointed out in your previous post) is that 'defense from a bear' is not a very valid reason to bring a hand gun on a hunting trip.



I did not see anyone suggest a gun was necessary to defend against bears

Chris said that he regularly feels the need to carry a large caliber hand gun because of the threat of bears:
lots of times we're out in the woods building deer stands, maintaining the land, etc etc, and we're open carrying large caliber handguns in case of a bear wandering through.
I think we just agreeded that a handgun IS a valid form of defense against bears, as the agressive wild fur-ball found out in Chris's annecdote. Handguns are not the only way nor the single best way to protect oneself against bear attacks, but a handgun will kill a bear, and can be used to scare one off with warning shots if needed- thus it is perfectly valid for this use. No reason one can't carry a handgin to fire warning shots if the bear spray they are also carrying doesn't work. Plenty of legitimate uses for a handgun in the woods and zero legitimate reasons for any regulation against carrying one in the woods. Some people will choose not to, nothing wrong with that.

I didn't ever disagree that you can kill a bear with a gun.  Guns are made to kill things, that's their whole point.  I said that carrying a gun in the woods because you feel the need to defend yourseisn't really valid logic.  It's of similar use as carrying grenades to defend against bears.  Both are poor tools for the job, and kinda weird to be walking around in the woods with.  Both will probably (unnecessarily) kill a bear that you happen upon.  Both would be better traded for bear spray if you are really concerned about preventing a mauling.

The problem with Chris's use of a handgun in the woods is that he (and his friends) carry them in lieu of bear spray, apparently due to the same false sense of security that you're bolstering with your comments here.

Incidentally, it appears there was a study in 2008 that indicated bear spray was more effective than a handgun:
http://midcurrent.com/experts/does-bear-spray-work/

gaja

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 595
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2502 on: March 12, 2017, 10:24:00 AM »
Swedish educational video showing how you can scare off an attacking brown bear: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TtC14cpwwXg

Polars are a different story. They have no instinctual fear of anything. Which is why the authorities on Svalbard won't let you travel outside the center of longyearbyen without a rifle. Still, if you shoot a polar, you have to prove that you did everything you could to scare it off first.

Polars are scary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZY3lmiIj2g
A government that forces someone to carry a gun is similarly scary.

Interesting that the frightening government responsible for that rule has been governing one of the most consistently happy, and least corrupt countries in the world (for decades).

And has very strict gun regulations on the mainland.

Svalbard is not a place where you just happen to wander around. Everything you do there is regulated, do to the dangers and fragile environment. Most people are happy to follow the sysselmann's advice, rather than being eaten.
Travelling southern Norway, Iceland and the Faroes in an electric car: http://travelelectric.blogspot.no/

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2503 on: March 12, 2017, 01:38:41 PM »
Swedish educational video showing how you can scare off an attacking brown bear: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TtC14cpwwXg

Polars are a different story. They have no instinctual fear of anything. Which is why the authorities on Svalbard won't let you travel outside the center of longyearbyen without a rifle. Still, if you shoot a polar, you have to prove that you did everything you could to scare it off first.

Polars are scary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZY3lmiIj2g
A government that forces someone to carry a gun is similarly scary.

Interesting that the frightening government responsible for that rule has been governing one of the most consistently happy, and least corrupt countries in the world (for decades).
Why can't we be more like Europe! :)
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

scottish

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2504 on: March 13, 2017, 03:22:39 PM »
Pretty sure you require an armed escort to wander around in polar bear country in Canada as well (i.e. James Bay, the Torngat mountains) with any of the tourist organizations.

I think it'd be pretty hard to enforce if you really wanted to avoid it though.

gaja

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 595
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2505 on: March 13, 2017, 04:03:24 PM »
Pretty sure you require an armed escort to wander around in polar bear country in Canada as well (i.e. James Bay, the Torngat mountains) with any of the tourist organizations.

I think it'd be pretty hard to enforce if you really wanted to avoid it though.

Depend on your point of view. Death by polar bear is a pretty efficient way to enforce regulations.
Travelling southern Norway, Iceland and the Faroes in an electric car: http://travelelectric.blogspot.no/

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2506 on: March 13, 2017, 06:56:40 PM »
Pretty sure you require an armed escort to wander around in polar bear country in Canada as well (i.e. James Bay, the Torngat mountains) with any of the tourist organizations.

I think it'd be pretty hard to enforce if you really wanted to avoid it though.

Depend on your point of view. Death by polar bear is a pretty efficient way to enforce regulations.
Doesn't the Canadian government know that bear spray is better than a gun? Why would they force people to use such an inferior means of defense?

On the plus side, by 2050 these polar bears should no longer have enough habitat to survive in these areas, thankfully removing the need for guns.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

scottish

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2507 on: March 14, 2017, 05:56:47 PM »
That's sad.   This organization thinks that polar bears may be able to adapt though.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150904-polar-bears-dolphins-seals-climate-change/

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8157
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2508 on: March 15, 2017, 05:55:11 AM »
Doesn't the Canadian government know that bear spray is better than a gun? Why would they force people to use such an inferior means of defense?

If you read the many studies posted in this thread regarding bear spray you would have noticed that pepper spray has been extensively tested on grizzly/black bears.  As far as I can tell not enough testing has been done regarding polar bears to draw a clear conclusion yet.

scottish

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2509 on: March 15, 2017, 04:59:42 PM »

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2510 on: March 16, 2017, 04:30:33 AM »
Doesn't the Canadian government know that bear spray is better than a gun? Why would they force people to use such an inferior means of defense?

If you read the many studies posted in this thread regarding bear spray you would have noticed that pepper spray has been extensively tested on grizzly/black bears.  As far as I can tell not enough testing has been done regarding polar bears to draw a clear conclusion yet.
Well then it's a good thing guns work on polar bears, I guess.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

scottish

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2511 on: March 18, 2017, 08:37:50 AM »
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2512 on: March 20, 2017, 05:05:41 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/17/us/beyond-the-call-of-duty-arizona/index.html

Interesting story. Armed ex-felon saves State Trooper who was being attacked by an armed assailant.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

libertarian4321

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1090
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2513 on: March 20, 2017, 01:54:27 PM »
I just wanted to share our joy.

This past weekend, we welcomed a new baby AR-15 into our household.

My wife and and I can't wait to take it to the range.

scottish

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2514 on: March 20, 2017, 03:39:55 PM »
I read this article about police forced entry raids:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html

Police *preferring* forced entry raids to arresting someone at work or on the sidewalk?   Flash bang grenade tossed into a baby's crib?   Officers shot in self defense by people in their homes during a raid?    Storms of bullets from the police?

Holy s**t.   The US has way bigger problems than gun control.   

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2515 on: March 21, 2017, 04:40:22 AM »
I read this article about police forced entry raids:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html

Police *preferring* forced entry raids to arresting someone at work or on the sidewalk?   Flash bang grenade tossed into a baby's crib?   Officers shot in self defense by people in their homes during a raid?    Storms of bullets from the police?

Holy s**t.   The US has way bigger problems than gun control.
Right?
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

hoosier

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 76
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2516 on: March 21, 2017, 08:29:33 AM »
I read this article about police forced entry raids:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html

Police *preferring* forced entry raids to arresting someone at work or on the sidewalk?   Flash bang grenade tossed into a baby's crib?   Officers shot in self defense by people in their homes during a raid?    Storms of bullets from the police?

Holy s**t.   The US has way bigger problems than gun control.
Right?

Operators gotta operate.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2517 on: March 21, 2017, 10:21:04 AM »
I read this article about police forced entry raids:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html

Police *preferring* forced entry raids to arresting someone at work or on the sidewalk?   Flash bang grenade tossed into a baby's crib?   Officers shot in self defense by people in their homes during a raid?    Storms of bullets from the police?

Holy s**t.   The US has way bigger problems than gun control.
Right?

Operators gotta operate.
High speed, low drag.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4105
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2518 on: March 22, 2017, 07:06:20 AM »
I read this article about police forced entry raids:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html

Police *preferring* forced entry raids to arresting someone at work or on the sidewalk?   Flash bang grenade tossed into a baby's crib?   Officers shot in self defense by people in their homes during a raid?    Storms of bullets from the police?

Holy s**t.   The US has way bigger problems than gun control.
Right?
I have to agree with this.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8157
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2519 on: March 22, 2017, 04:23:37 PM »
I read this article about police forced entry raids:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html

Police *preferring* forced entry raids to arresting someone at work or on the sidewalk?   Flash bang grenade tossed into a baby's crib?   Officers shot in self defense by people in their homes during a raid?    Storms of bullets from the police?

Holy s**t.   The US has way bigger problems than gun control.

Do you think that militarization of the population plays an impact on more extreme tactics used by police?

yuka

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: East coast for now
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2520 on: March 22, 2017, 05:11:15 PM »
I read this article about police forced entry raids:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html

Police *preferring* forced entry raids to arresting someone at work or on the sidewalk?   Flash bang grenade tossed into a baby's crib?   Officers shot in self defense by people in their homes during a raid?    Storms of bullets from the police?

Holy s**t.   The US has way bigger problems than gun control.

Do you think that militarization of the population plays an impact on more extreme tactics used by police?

Can you define or substantiate a militarization of the population? More relevantly, a militarization of the groups who are being attacked like this?

For my part, I'm more inclined to blame two things:
(a) Land use patterns of the last 70 years mean that you're less likely to encounter police officers in non-threatening ways that embed them into the community. More likely they're chasing after you in their cars. Or blinding you on the roadside with their bright blue lights, confusing all your fellow drivers and consequently making your commute even more dangerous.
(b) Agreements between federal agencies and local police departments. In the same way we feed the war machine by selling arms to foreign nations, we do it at home with local agencies.

Fishindude

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1236
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2521 on: March 23, 2017, 07:46:01 AM »
I just wanted to share our joy.

This past weekend, we welcomed a new baby AR-15 into our household.

My wife and and I can't wait to take it to the range.


Got a real kick out of this post.   Congratulations!
I recently adopted a new .257 Weatherbaby.






cheapass

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2522 on: March 23, 2017, 08:44:04 AM »
Do you think that militarization of the population plays an impact on more extreme tactics used by police?

I would think that militarization of the population would incentivize police NOT to kick down doors with no-knock raids because they're less likely to get shot with normal policing tactics.