Author Topic: Firearms in the home  (Read 358595 times)

hoosier

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2450 on: April 13, 2017, 09:26:56 AM »
They made their choice.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
Exactly this.

GuitarStv

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2451 on: April 22, 2017, 08:27:10 AM »
But wait - these 3 invaded someone's home armed with potentially lethal weapons.  They had prepared to encounter occupants and deal with them violently.     This sort of incident explain why Americans keep firearms in their homes.    This I understand.

That's the bottom line. If someone enters my home forcefully with a weapon, I'm not leaving my family's safety up to the whim of a criminal with questionable judgment. Sorry.

I don't think you'll get too much argument from anybody on this.  It's a pretty clear cut case, if people are trying to hurt you you should be able to defend yourself.  There are also many cases where firearms in the house have been turned on family members (http://www.waff.com/story/35094235/father-accidentally-shoots-son-after-mistaking-him-for-burglar) . . . I doubt that you would find many claiming that this sort of incident explains why Americans keep firearms in their homes.  Owning a firearm doesn't always mean you'll be the hero, fighting off an armed robbery . . . sometimes it means that you'll be dad who killed his son by mistake.

The fundamental question seems to be "is ready access to guns a net positive or negative for society?", and (if the answer to that question is positive) . . . "is there anything we can do to reduce the tragic consequences of having guns while increasing the benefits?".  The problem is that research on the issue tends to be spotty and conflicting, so it's difficult to conclusively draw an obvious answer from data . . . leading to arguments based on emotion and worldview.

KBecks

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2452 on: April 22, 2017, 09:11:05 AM »
People need to know basic gun safety, which includes, always identify your target.  You must be sure that you clearly see the human being you are shooting at and know they are not a friend or neighbor, etc, and you must be aware of your surroundings to avoid terrible mistakes. 

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2453 on: April 22, 2017, 09:56:00 AM »
...  There are also many cases where firearms in the house have been turned on family members (http://www.waff.com/story/35094235/father-accidentally-shoots-son-after-mistaking-him-for-burglar) . . . I doubt that you would find many claiming that this sort of incident explains why Americans keep firearms in their homes.  Owning a firearm doesn't always mean you'll be the hero, fighting off an armed robbery . . . sometimes it means that you'll be dad who killed his son by mistake.
These kinds of tragedies get lots of press, but I wonder--how often does that kind of thing actually happen?

MsPeacock

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2454 on: April 22, 2017, 12:16:38 PM »
Here is some scientific data about the use of guns in self-defense and other instances:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/


A gun in the home does not make the occupants safer, contrary to popular belief and sales tactics.

ncornilsen

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2455 on: April 24, 2017, 08:20:07 AM »
Here is some scientific data about the use of guns in self-defense and other instances:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/


A gun in the home does not make the occupants safer, contrary to popular belief and sales tactics.

Survey data isn't scientific data. Secondly, it's very clear that whoever wrote this is not being objective. Based on what they cite as their bellwethers, it has the distinct feel that they had a conclusion in mind and looked for ways to support it. I haven't delved into each of the referenced studies, perhaps they're more objective. And perhaps better data is now available.

#4 is irrelevant. If the law is such that pointing a gun at anyone for any reason is illegal, then any DGU is therefore illegal.

 #7: Adolescents are more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one defensively. Well, duh... children aren't exactly allowed to carry guns. I wonder if dogs have guns used against them more of than they use them defensively as well?

#8: this just shows that if you're a criminal, you're more likely to get shot.

#9,10: What's a defensive use of a firearm? is yelling at the crackhead while holding him in the sights without firing a DGU?

scottish

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2456 on: April 24, 2017, 04:07:23 PM »
It's not about improved safety or net benefit to society.

It's about not being helpless.   The American cultural story is about being the good guy, self reliance, and grit.

If a gang invades your home & you're unarmed, you're pretty much helpless.   Even GuitarStv (who is a jiu-jitsu player and serious weight lifter IIRC) would have trouble driving off a gang armed with clubs and knives.

The only way to change the gun culture in America is to demonstrate that people won't be helpless without a firearm in the home.   The Swiss model might possibly work, but I suspect that  crime, poverty and racial conflict will prevent this for the foreseeable future.

GuitarStv

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2457 on: April 26, 2017, 06:05:45 AM »
It's not about improved safety or net benefit to society.

It's about not being helpless.   The American cultural story is about being the good guy, self reliance, and grit.

If a gang invades your home & you're unarmed, you're pretty much helpless.   Even GuitarStv (who is a jiu-jitsu player and serious weight lifter IIRC) would have trouble driving off a gang armed with clubs and knives.

The only way to change the gun culture in America is to demonstrate that people won't be helpless without a firearm in the home.   The Swiss model might possibly work, but I suspect that  crime, poverty and racial conflict will prevent this for the foreseeable future.

I have to disagree with you on that.

We live in a society because of the benefits that living in a society convey upon us.  If something hurts society as a whole it should not be tolerated.  At a very high level, that's the entire purpose of the rule of law.

To give a ridiculous example that illustrates my point, if Russia decided to invade my house tomorrow I don't have a thermonuclear ability to repel their attack.  I don't have land mines.  I don't have RPGs, or even hand grenades.  That leaves me pretty helpless against a modern military with tanks, APCs, helicopters, and fighter jets.  I have to wait and hope for the national defense to save me.  Society has decided that the benefit of keeping these weapons amoung the citizenry is outweighed by the disadvantages and thus they are restricted.  It doesn't matter at all that I'd be helpless in my home.

ooeei

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2458 on: April 26, 2017, 07:15:40 AM »
I have to disagree with you on that.

We live in a society because of the benefits that living in a society convey upon us.  If something hurts society as a whole it should not be tolerated.  At a very high level, that's the entire purpose of the rule of law.

To give a ridiculous example that illustrates my point, if Russia decided to invade my house tomorrow I don't have a thermonuclear ability to repel their attack.  I don't have land mines.  I don't have RPGs, or even hand grenades.  That leaves me pretty helpless against a modern military with tanks, APCs, helicopters, and fighter jets.  I have to wait and hope for the national defense to save me.  Society has decided that the benefit of keeping these weapons amoung the citizenry is outweighed by the disadvantages and thus they are restricted.  It doesn't matter at all that I'd be helpless in my home.

The issue I have with this philosophy is it reduces us down to the lowest common denominator, and ignores, well, freedom.  Do sodas have a positive impact on society?  Almost certainly not.  Cigarettes?  Doubtful.  Credit cards?  Again I doubt it.  Alcohol?  Hell no.  Speed limits over 45?  I think you could make an argument against it.  Advertising?  Tough call there too.  We could make the country WAY safer by forcing everyone to wear body cams and have cameras in their homes.  Think of the crimes that would prevent/stop.

At some point people have to be responsible for how they use things.  I guess it depends on the kind of society you want to live in.  Absolute safety requires absolute control.  Most people have some place they draw the line and say "I wouldn't want to live in a place with that much of a restriction on me" because a certain amount of freedom is enjoyable.  There's the whole "he who would give up freedom for safety deserves neither" quote that somebody important supposedly said, I think there's something to that.

To me guns are a very important aspect of democratic freedom.  It's power to the people. While it certainly doesn't fix everything, and has some serious downsides, it gives the people a pretty huge bargaining chip they don't get in many places.  The whole "people shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be a afraid of their people" philosophy in action.  Voting and protesting only works in certain societal formats, we're seeing results of countries protesting right now that have media completing ignoring the protests.  Even if the media covers it, unless another country decides to step in it doesn't really matter.  It's not hard for me to imagine a situation where a government mistreats its people and doesn't give a shit about signs and twitter posts. 

Chris22

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2459 on: April 26, 2017, 07:56:27 AM »
To give a ridiculous example that illustrates my point, if Russia decided to invade my house tomorrow I don't have a thermonuclear ability to repel their attack.  I don't have land mines.  I don't have RPGs, or even hand grenades.  That leaves me pretty helpless against a modern military with tanks, APCs, helicopters, and fighter jets.  I have to wait and hope for the national defense to save me.  Society has decided that the benefit of keeping these weapons amoung the citizenry is outweighed by the disadvantages and thus they are restricted.  It doesn't matter at all that I'd be helpless in my home.

And yet insurgent forces all over the middle east have given the most powerful military in the world PLENTY of trouble with just small arms and IEDs.  Unless someone is truly going to "nuke us from orbit" then yes, small arms can be effective. 
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zolotiyeruki

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2460 on: April 26, 2017, 08:24:50 AM »
To give a ridiculous example that illustrates my point, if Russia decided to invade my house tomorrow I don't have a thermonuclear ability to repel their attack.  I don't have land mines.  I don't have RPGs, or even hand grenades.  That leaves me pretty helpless against a modern military with tanks, APCs, helicopters, and fighter jets.  I have to wait and hope for the national defense to save me.  Society has decided that the benefit of keeping these weapons amoung the citizenry is outweighed by the disadvantages and thus they are restricted.  It doesn't matter at all that I'd be helpless in my home.
Invading is not the same as occupying and assimilating.  Once the tanks have rolled past, it's a lot harder to keep a lid on things.  Even with Russia's 20,000 tanks, at some point, you have to put boots on the ground.  At that point, the 50 million gun owners become a bit problematic.

scottish

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2461 on: April 26, 2017, 04:26:14 PM »
It's not about improved safety or net benefit to society.

It's about not being helpless.   The American cultural story is about being the good guy, self reliance, and grit.

If a gang invades your home & you're unarmed, you're pretty much helpless.   Even GuitarStv (who is a jiu-jitsu player and serious weight lifter IIRC) would have trouble driving off a gang armed with clubs and knives.

The only way to change the gun culture in America is to demonstrate that people won't be helpless without a firearm in the home.   The Swiss model might possibly work, but I suspect that  crime, poverty and racial conflict will prevent this for the foreseeable future.

I have to disagree with you on that.

We live in a society because of the benefits that living in a society convey upon us.  If something hurts society as a whole it should not be tolerated.  At a very high level, that's the entire purpose of the rule of law.

To give a ridiculous example that illustrates my point, if Russia decided to invade my house tomorrow I don't have a thermonuclear ability to repel their attack.  I don't have land mines.  I don't have RPGs, or even hand grenades.  That leaves me pretty helpless against a modern military with tanks, APCs, helicopters, and fighter jets.  I have to wait and hope for the national defense to save me.  Society has decided that the benefit of keeping these weapons amoung the citizenry is outweighed by the disadvantages and thus they are restricted.  It doesn't matter at all that I'd be helpless in my home.

I don't think you're disagreeing with me!  :-)  I personally tend to agree with your point of view - this is the way we should do things.   

I was trying to elucidate the American cultural view which leads to their need to own personal firearms.    In the American culture, it's more important to be able to look after yourself than any risks or negative effects this leads to in their society.    Of course, that's a sweeping generalization.    People in more liberal states will think more like we do.   People in more conservative states will think more in terms of their own independence and self-sufficiency.

It took a very long time for me to understand this, but I think I finally get it.

Malum Prohibitum

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2462 on: April 27, 2017, 02:48:16 PM »
If something hurts society as a whole it should not be tolerated.
  And therein lies the divide between your view and mine.  I do not surrender fundamental human rights, such as the right to exist, merely because you do not wish to tolerate my means of preserving my existence.

Civil rights may have undesirable consequences.  We do not give them up merely because you do not wish to tolerate them, due to their costs to society.

At the end of the day, you do not get to control me on this issue (or any of my other civil rights).

That decision was made at the founding of the country.   They cannot be repealed lightly, or on a majority vote, even if you and 51% of the country think such rights hurt society as a whole.

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2463 on: April 27, 2017, 07:07:21 PM »
The problem with the pro gun viewpoint is that you'll never change anyone's mind about it, because their need for guns is based on emotions, not logic. 

If someone doesn't feel safe in their home (ie, people might attack us!) then no statistic or fact will dissuade them from that viewpoint.

The only way to change their minds is to figure out how they might be made to feel safe in their homes and neighborhoods. 

The fact that it's never actually happened to them (or anyone in their family), they still feel afraid.  In that way they are not unlike the people that invest in the stock market and then are in constant fear of the next crash.  Even though rationally everyone knows, based on all history, that it'll recover.  Fear of loss seems very strongly baked into our DNA.  Some more than others. 

So the real question - how can we get gun owners to feel less fearful?
Frugalite in training.

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2464 on: April 27, 2017, 07:17:26 PM »
The problem with the pro gun viewpoint is that you'll never change anyone's mind about it, because their need for guns is based on emotions, not logic. 

If someone doesn't feel safe in their home (ie, people might attack us!) then no statistic or fact will dissuade them from that viewpoint.

The only way to change their minds is to figure out how they might be made to feel safe in their homes and neighborhoods. 

The fact that it's never actually happened to them (or anyone in their family), they still feel afraid.  In that way they are not unlike the people that invest in the stock market and then are in constant fear of the next crash.  Even though rationally everyone knows, based on all history, that it'll recover.  Fear of loss seems very strongly baked into our DNA.  Some more than others. 

So the real question - how can we get gun owners to feel less fearful?

I'm not scared and I'm a gun owner.  How does your stereotype fit me?

Kris

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2465 on: April 27, 2017, 07:18:18 PM »
The problem with the pro gun viewpoint is that you'll never change anyone's mind about it, because their need for guns is based on emotions, not logic. 

If someone doesn't feel safe in their home (ie, people might attack us!) then no statistic or fact will dissuade them from that viewpoint.

The only way to change their minds is to figure out how they might be made to feel safe in their homes and neighborhoods. 

The fact that it's never actually happened to them (or anyone in their family), they still feel afraid.  In that way they are not unlike the people that invest in the stock market and then are in constant fear of the next crash.  Even though rationally everyone knows, based on all history, that it'll recover.  Fear of loss seems very strongly baked into our DNA.  Some more than others. 

So the real question - how can we get gun owners to feel less fearful?


Studies suggest certain brains are just more wired to fear.

Not sure how to deal with that.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201612/fear-and-anxiety-drive-conservatives-political-attitudes
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2466 on: April 27, 2017, 08:17:26 PM »

I'm not scared and I'm a gun owner.  How does your stereotype fit me?

Why do you own a gun?  If it's for protection, then that is based on fear (fear of being attacked).


Frugalite in training.

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2467 on: April 27, 2017, 08:30:09 PM »

I'm not scared and I'm a gun owner.  How does your stereotype fit me?

Why do you own a gun?  If it's for protection, then that is based on fear (fear of being attacked).

Because I want to.

It'd be pretty hard for them to be for protection, since they're all a couple of thousand miles away.  Care to air your next blatant assumption?

Your second sentence is also a bullshit assumption, but that's another topic.

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2468 on: April 27, 2017, 10:31:45 PM »

I'm not scared and I'm a gun owner.  How does your stereotype fit me?

Why do you own a gun?  If it's for protection, then that is based on fear (fear of being attacked).

Because I want to.

It'd be pretty hard for them to be for protection, since they're all a couple of thousand miles away.  Care to air your next blatant assumption?

Your second sentence is also a bullshit assumption, but that's another topic.

You sound upset.  Anger is another emotion that often pops up with gun owners in these types of discussions.  Not surprising, since anger and fear are pretty tightly related. 
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2469 on: April 27, 2017, 10:35:00 PM »

I'm not scared and I'm a gun owner.  How does your stereotype fit me?

Why do you own a gun?  If it's for protection, then that is based on fear (fear of being attacked).

Because I want to.

It'd be pretty hard for them to be for protection, since they're all a couple of thousand miles away.  Care to air your next blatant assumption?

Your second sentence is also a bullshit assumption, but that's another topic.

You sound upset.  Anger is another emotion that often pops up with gun owners in these types of discussions.  Not surprising, since anger and fear are pretty tightly related.

Nope, not at all.  Could we please continue without the logical fallacies?

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2470 on: April 27, 2017, 10:39:54 PM »
You still sound angry but at least you aren't swearing at me any longer :D 

So you never answered about why you own a gun.  Why do you own a gun?  Or rather, what do you use it for?
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2471 on: April 27, 2017, 10:44:11 PM »
You still sound angry but at least you aren't swearing at me any longer :D 

So you never answered about why you own a gun.  Why do you own a gun?  Or rather, what do you use it for?
Yes, I did. And you sound like a condescending lover of stereotypes, but that's neither here nor there. ;)

1) Why do you own a gun?
Because I want to.

2) Or rather, what do you use it for?
Like I said earlier, they're a couple thousand miles away (and have been for the last 1.5 years). So, I suppose right now I use them for nothing.

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2472 on: April 27, 2017, 10:51:22 PM »
You still sound angry but at least you aren't swearing at me any longer :D 

So you never answered about why you own a gun.  Why do you own a gun?  Or rather, what do you use it for?
Yes, I did. And you sound like a condescending lover of stereotypes, but that's neither here nor there. ;)

1) Why do you own a gun?
Because I want to.

2) Or rather, what do you use it for?
Like I said earlier, they're a couple thousand miles away (and have been for the last 1.5 years). So, I suppose right now I use them for nothing.

Well, if you read upthread a bit, you'll see that I, too, own a gun.  Several, in fact.  But I hold no illusions that they make me safer (they don't) or that they are safe (they aren't).  Mostly the guns stay on the farm, locked away.  Sometimes they come out during hunting season. 

Hmm, do I still sound like a condescending lover of stereotypes?
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2473 on: April 27, 2017, 10:53:34 PM »
You still sound angry but at least you aren't swearing at me any longer :D 

So you never answered about why you own a gun.  Why do you own a gun?  Or rather, what do you use it for?
Yes, I did. And you sound like a condescending lover of stereotypes, but that's neither here nor there. ;)

1) Why do you own a gun?
Because I want to.

2) Or rather, what do you use it for?
Like I said earlier, they're a couple thousand miles away (and have been for the last 1.5 years). So, I suppose right now I use them for nothing.

Well, if you read upthread a bit, you'll see that I, too, own a gun.  Several, in fact.  But I hold no illusions that they make me safer (they don't) or that they are safe (they aren't).  Mostly the guns stay on the farm, locked away.  Sometimes they come out during hunting season. 

Hmm, do I still sound like a condescending lover of stereotypes?

Quote
Why do you own a gun?  If it's for protection, then that is based on fear (fear of being attacked).

You sound upset.  Anger is another emotion that often pops up with gun owners in these types of discussions.  Not surprising, since anger and fear are pretty tightly related.

Yep.

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2474 on: April 27, 2017, 11:00:16 PM »
You're a bit opaque here, but I'm guessing that you took offense at my assertion that people who own guns for protection are motivated by fear?

That was (and is) my view.  Is this what you disagree with?
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2475 on: April 27, 2017, 11:10:32 PM »
You're a bit opaque here, but I'm guessing that you took offense at my assertion that people who own guns for protection are motivated by fear?

That was (and is) my view.  Is this what you disagree with?

The post I responded to effectively claimed that gun owners are afraid, therefore they feel that they need guns. You applied this sentiment globally, i.e. "the pro gun viewpoint."  I responded by saying that does not apply to me, so how does that work?  You were quite insistent on continuing down the fear path, which is rendered wholly irrelevant in my case because while I do own guns (including a scary black rifle), I don't have immediate access to any of them.

When I lived in gun-friendly states (or was exempt from state firearm restrictions), I carried a concealed firearm primarily because I would feel terrible if something happened where I could have assisted had I been armed (example). It wasn't because I thought someone was going to harm me. I now routinely walk around NYC alone after midnight and am not bothered at all.  It's probably not the most common perspective out there, but hopefully that is a bit less opaque.  I've been shooting since I was 9 and was given my first rifle at 12...gun ownership was normal and commonplace when and where I grew up, not something people did out of fear.

I also enjoy collecting and target shooting - not much of a hunter, though my gf gets at least one deer every hunting season.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 11:14:06 PM by JLee »

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2476 on: April 27, 2017, 11:22:38 PM »
You're a bit opaque here, but I'm guessing that you took offense at my assertion that people who own guns for protection are motivated by fear?

That was (and is) my view.  Is this what you disagree with?

The post I responded to effectively claimed that gun owners are afraid, therefore they feel that they need guns. You applied this sentiment globally, i.e. "the pro gun viewpoint."  I responded by saying that does not apply to me, so how does that work?  You were quite insistent on continuing down the fear path, which is rendered wholly irrelevant in my case because while I do own guns (including a scary black rifle), I don't have immediate access to any of them.

When I lived in gun-friendly states (or was exempt from state firearm restrictions), I carried a concealed firearm primarily because I would feel terrible if something happened where I could have assisted had I been armed (example). It wasn't because I thought someone was going to harm me. I now routinely walk around NYC alone after midnight and am not bothered at all.  It's probably not the most common perspective out there, but hopefully that is a bit less opaque.  I've been shooting since I was 9 and was given my first rifle at 12...gun ownership was normal and commonplace when and where I grew up, not something people did out of fear.

I also enjoy collecting and target shooting - not much of a hunter, though my gf gets at least one deer every hunting season.

OK, so you don't own a gun 'for protection'.  You own one so you can be a hero, if the situation arrises.  That's fine, I'm cool w/that.  I grew up around guns too, they aren't especially scary to own or use for me, either. 

I still contend that most (probably even the large majority) of people that own guns, especially in an urban or suburban environment, do it 'for protection'.  I base this on my own conversations with quite a few gun owners I knew growing up in Texas, and also the gun owners I know out here in CO.  Most of them aren't doing CC in order to help others.  Most of them own a gun and keep it at home (or vehicle) for protection.

And again, for those people it's not about the logic or the data or the arguments.  At some level they feel there's a threat, and that owning a gun mitigates that threat.  That's an emotional decision and the emotion it's based on is fear. 
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2477 on: April 27, 2017, 11:30:57 PM »
You're a bit opaque here, but I'm guessing that you took offense at my assertion that people who own guns for protection are motivated by fear?

That was (and is) my view.  Is this what you disagree with?

The post I responded to effectively claimed that gun owners are afraid, therefore they feel that they need guns. You applied this sentiment globally, i.e. "the pro gun viewpoint."  I responded by saying that does not apply to me, so how does that work?  You were quite insistent on continuing down the fear path, which is rendered wholly irrelevant in my case because while I do own guns (including a scary black rifle), I don't have immediate access to any of them.

When I lived in gun-friendly states (or was exempt from state firearm restrictions), I carried a concealed firearm primarily because I would feel terrible if something happened where I could have assisted had I been armed (example). It wasn't because I thought someone was going to harm me. I now routinely walk around NYC alone after midnight and am not bothered at all.  It's probably not the most common perspective out there, but hopefully that is a bit less opaque.  I've been shooting since I was 9 and was given my first rifle at 12...gun ownership was normal and commonplace when and where I grew up, not something people did out of fear.

I also enjoy collecting and target shooting - not much of a hunter, though my gf gets at least one deer every hunting season.

OK, so you don't own a gun 'for protection'.  You own one so you can be a hero, if the situation arrises.  That's fine, I'm cool w/that.  I grew up around guns too, they aren't especially scary to own or use for me, either. 

I still contend that most (probably even the large majority) of people that own guns, especially in an urban or suburban environment, do it 'for protection'.  I base this on my own conversations with quite a few gun owners I knew growing up in Texas, and also the gun owners I know out here in CO.  Most of them aren't doing CC in order to help others.  Most of them own a gun and keep it at home (or vehicle) for protection.

And again, for those people it's not about the logic or the data or the arguments.  At some level they feel there's a threat, and that owning a gun mitigates that threat.  That's an emotional decision and the emotion it's based on is fear.

Eh, I have a whole pile of rifles that are for sporting purposes or collecting, too - it is not fair to stuff me in that categorical box.  A Mosin-Nagant isn't ideal for modern day heroics. :P

The phrasing of "so you can be a hero" kinda rubs me the wrong way. I feel like it's looking at it from the wrong perspective...I don't have a trauma-prepped first aid kit in my truck so I can be a hero - it's so some poor bastard (hopefully) won't die if I'm around while he's bleeding out.  I suppose that one could argue it's the same thing, but the way I read your sentence implies to me that I'm hoping for recognition/fame/whatever and that's not the case.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 11:34:16 PM by JLee »

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2478 on: April 27, 2017, 11:33:05 PM »
Eh, I have a whole pile of rifles that are for sporting purposes or collecting, too - it is not fair to stuff me in that categorical box.  A Mosin-Nagant isn't ideal for modern day heroics. :P

I'm the same, but with knives.  Some of them are beautiful but almost non-functional for their main purpose :D
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2479 on: April 27, 2017, 11:34:53 PM »
Eh, I have a whole pile of rifles that are for sporting purposes or collecting, too - it is not fair to stuff me in that categorical box.  A Mosin-Nagant isn't ideal for modern day heroics. :P

I'm the same, but with knives.  Some of them are beautiful but almost non-functional for their main purpose :D
(note: I edited/added to earlier post)

Ha, I have far more knives than I could use at any one time, too, but they each have their purpose.

I think.

:D

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2480 on: April 27, 2017, 11:38:24 PM »
Oh here's how bad it is - I shouldn't admit this on an MMM forum, but I actually bought a Wicked Edge sharpener so I could get a mirror image bevel to my edges.  Ridonculously sharp, but also quite beautiful.
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2481 on: April 27, 2017, 11:42:54 PM »
Oh here's how bad it is - I shouldn't admit this on an MMM forum, but I actually bought a Wicked Edge sharpener so I could get a mirror image bevel to my edges.  Ridonculously sharp, but also quite beautiful.

I have a buddy with one of those...unfortunately, he's about as far away as my guns are so I can't borrow it. I have a Spyderco Sharpmaker that does well enough for now (and an S30V Kershaw Blur, which I usually carry because I don't want to lose my out-of-production-but-found-on-eBay Elmax model...).

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2482 on: April 27, 2017, 11:46:49 PM »
Haha, I think we've officially de-railed the thread here.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2483 on: April 28, 2017, 06:00:29 AM »
If something hurts society as a whole it should not be tolerated.
  And therein lies the divide between your view and mine.  I do not surrender fundamental human rights, such as the right to exist, merely because you do not wish to tolerate my means of preserving my existence.

The right to exist does not depend on gun ownership.  (See: billions of people around the world who exist and do not own guns.)  Nobody is trying to take away your right to exist, that's quite a logical leap and I think even you would have to agree that it's a bit of a straw man upon closer inspection.

Preserving your existence depends on a lot of things . . . in certain situations easy access to guns will help on this matter, and in certain situations it will hinder.  Generally speaking, things that help society give the best bang for the buck on the preservation of existence front for the most people.

What you appear to be arguing here (and please correct me if I'm wrong), is that your interpretation of the best thing for the preservation of your own existence should always be allowed . . . regardless of the harm it may cause to anyone else.

Civil rights may have undesirable consequences.  We do not give them up merely because you do not wish to tolerate them, due to their costs to society.

At the end of the day, you do not get to control me on this issue (or any of my other civil rights).

That decision was made at the founding of the country.   They cannot be repealed lightly, or on a majority vote, even if you and 51% of the country think such rights hurt society as a whole.

I'm not sure I follow what you're talking about here.  Living in society is an acceptance of the fact that rights must constantly be given up.

If you insult me in the street I don't have the right to kill you and rape your wife.  I don't have the right to drive down the wrong side of the street above the speed limit.  I don't have the right to dump toxic chemicals in the lake that goes through my own land.  I don't have the right to own surface to air missiles.  All of these are freedoms given up due to their costs to society.

You're absolutely right that I don't get to control you on this issue.  That's the job (and sole real purpose) of the government you elect.  They absolutely do get to decide what freedoms you enjoy by enacting laws.  (There are checks and balances in place to attempt to prevent abuse of this power, but that's completely beyond the discussion at hand.)


ooeei

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2484 on: April 28, 2017, 06:47:49 AM »
The problem with the pro gun viewpoint is that you'll never change anyone's mind about it, because their need for guns is based on emotions, not logic. 

If someone doesn't feel safe in their home (ie, people might attack us!) then no statistic or fact will dissuade them from that viewpoint.

The only way to change their minds is to figure out how they might be made to feel safe in their homes and neighborhoods. 

The fact that it's never actually happened to them (or anyone in their family), they still feel afraid.  In that way they are not unlike the people that invest in the stock market and then are in constant fear of the next crash.  Even though rationally everyone knows, based on all history, that it'll recover.  Fear of loss seems very strongly baked into our DNA.  Some more than others. 

So the real question - how can we get gun owners to feel less fearful?

I know right?  I also think the problem with the pro gun fire extinguisher viewpoint is that you'll never change anyone's mind about it, because their need for guns fire extinguishers is based on emotions, not logic. 

If someone doesn't feel safe in their home (ie, people might attack us fire might happen!) then no statistic or fact will dissuade them from that viewpoint.

The only way to change their minds is to figure out how they might be made to feel safe in their homes and neighborhoods. 

The fact that it's never actually happened to them (or anyone in their family), they still feel afraid.  In that way they are not unlike the people that invest in the stock market and then are in constant fear of the next crash.  Even though rationally everyone knows, based on all history, that it'll recover.  Fear of loss seems very strongly baked into our DNA.  Some more than others. 

So the real question - how can we get gun fire extinguisher owners to feel less fearful?


In all seriousness, recognizing that throughout human history the "little guy" has been screwed over by bigger stronger forces, and preparing to protect yourself in case it happens again, is not really how I'd define fear.  I guess you could say people who invest in bonds are motivated by fear, or people who wear seatbelts, or eat healthy, or buy insurance, but at that point I think you've pretty much diluted the word so much it's almost meaningless.  Being prepared =/= fear. 

It is true that each person has a different tolerance for that preparedness.  Some people only ever have enough food and water on hand for the next 2-3 days because more than that is wasteful, but ask anyone over about 70 years old and they'll tell you how foolish that is because their parents lived through a time when that would have been disastrous.  Hell people in other countries who you can fly on a plane to visit today will tell you how foolish that is, look at Venezuela right now, talk to an immigrant from China who was there in 1960.  My girlfriend's grandparents basically panic if there's less than 100 pounds of rice in their house at a given time.  The entire soviet union collapsed in the 90's, that was a world superpower and all of the money just evaporated basically overnight.  I read a very interesting outline on another forum by someone who lived through it.  This wasn't some revolution in the middle ages, this was in 1991.  Some people had cell phones during the last time a major world superpower collapsed.

To me, fear implies an emotional response that isn't logically based.  I think it's entirely logical to prepare within reason for any number of events that have happened all over the world in the last 60 years.  If I really thought the world was going to collapse, I wouldn't be saving more than half of my money in 1's and 0's on investment firms' computers.  I suspect the system will last a good long while.  I also recognize that I can be wrong, and have taken what I think are reasonable precautions in case something happens.  That's also part of why I think it's a good idea to learn some skills other people don't want to learn.  The guy who posts about his experience in the Soviet Union got by with skills as an auto mechanic and gardening.

Basic human psychology experiments and research shows us what people are willing to do if ordered.  The prison experiment and electroshock experiment come to mind (don't remember the exact names).  Those experiments are why I'm a bit wary of putting all of our "protect us" eggs in the government basket so to speak.  I'm also very skeptical of 100% relying on protection by a government that has Donald Trump as its leader. 

Also I do like knife sharpening too, I use a water stone, but gotta love that mirror.

edit:  The Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Experiment are what I was referring to. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 07:08:43 AM by ooeei »

Chris22

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2485 on: April 28, 2017, 07:54:27 AM »
What you appear to be arguing here (and please correct me if I'm wrong), is that your interpretation of the best thing for the preservation of your own existence should always be allowed . . . regardless of the harm it may cause to anyone else.

The response to that would be if you want to deny me something you need to prove that it is causing harm to someone else.  For the vast vast vast majority of legally owned firearms, you can't prove that, because it isn't. 


Also, FWIW, you and others keep talking about "fear" being the reason for gun owners owning guns, and you look down on this.  Quite frankly, I view people who fear legally owned guns in the exact same manner, as I find it equally as irrational. 
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2486 on: April 28, 2017, 08:13:35 AM »
The problem with the pro gun viewpoint is that you'll never change anyone's mind about it, because their need for guns is based on emotions, not logic.
  In my case, it is based on actual experience.  I have used a firearm more than once to save my life and to stop an armed robbery.  I have never used it to commit a crime.

The interesting thing about your comment is that over here, on the pro-liberty side (what you call pro-gun), I hear the same characterization of your viewpoint (the anti-liberty or anti-gun viewpoint), that it is based on emotion, not logic.  Funny how that works, huh?  Only people that agree with you are logical (or intelligent or whatever).

Quote
So the real question - how can we get gun owners to feel less fearful?
  I don't feel fearful now.  Why should I?  I have used a gun more than once to save myself and others.  I do not have much of anything to be fearful about.

I think perhaps you have completely missed the boat on analyzing the psychology of those with whom you are unfamiliar.

tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2487 on: April 28, 2017, 09:44:06 AM »
Wow, I didn't think my observation would stir up so much emotion!  But I stand by it.  Here's some of the arguments that pro gun people put forth.  I'm going to leave out the "it's in the constitution" portion because the entire discussion is about if and how that should be changed. 

So here are the main arguments that I see from the pro liberty people:

1. We might have a societal collapse, Soviet Union style and guns protect us in that situation
2. Our government might overstep and become a totalitarian state and guns protect us from that
3. Someone might break into my home or car and guns protect me from that
4. Other people might get attacked on the street or in public and a gun will protect the person being attacked
5. I just collect guns, I don't actually use them for anything

In every instance (except #5), they are all based on the idea of being attacked or threatened in some way.

If you feel like you are under a threat, then yes a gun is an entirely rational choice to protect you from that threat.  And no amount of data or statistics will ever convince you otherwise, because you just know that the world is a dangerous place and a gun is very useful to counter act that danger.

I'm not saying the desire to own a gun isn't rational, if your pre-supposition is that the world is a dangerous place. 

My contention is that the core feeling that you have of being under threat and the world being dangerous - THAT is fear. 

I also know as men, you (and I) are never, ever allowed to say "Yes, I do this out of fear".  It's only ever acceptable for us to say "well I'm a protector and also I like to be prepared, just in case".  But in truth, if we weren't convinced that there is danger in the world, then we wouldn't feel the need to own guns. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:47:30 AM by tyort1 »
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Kris

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2488 on: April 28, 2017, 09:50:26 AM »
Wow, I didn't think my observation would stir up so much emotion!  But I stand by it.  Here's some of the arguments that pro gun people put forth.  I'm going to leave out the "it's in the constitution" portion because the entire discussion is about if and how that should be changed. 

So here are the main arguments that I see from the pro liberty people:

1. We might have a societal collapse, Soviet Union style and guns protect us in that situation
2. Our government might overstep and become a totalitarian state and guns protect us from that
3. Someone might break into my home or car and guns protect me from that
4. Other people might get attacked on the street or in public and a gun will protect the person being attacked
5. I just collect guns, I don't actually use them for anything

In every instance (except #5), they are all based on the idea of being attacked or threatened in some way.

If you feel like you are under a threat, then yes a gun is an entirely rational choice to protect you from that threat.  And no amount of data or statistics will ever convince you otherwise, because you just know that the world is a dangerous place and a gun is very useful to counter act that danger.

I'm not saying the desire to own a gun isn't rational, if your pre-supposition is that the world is a dangerous place. 

My contention is that the core feeling that you have of being under threat and the world being dangerous - THAT is fear. 

I also know as men, you (and I) are never, ever allowed to say "Yes, I do this out of fear".  It's only ever acceptable for us to say "well I'm a protector and also I like to be prepared, just in case".  But in truth, if we weren't convinced that there is danger in the world, then we wouldn't feel the need to own guns.

People don't like to have potential shortcomings pointed out to them. The knee jerk reaction is almost always to deny. Sometimes angrily.

Which explains the phenomenon of someone who is about to cut you off on the road who flips you off when you honk at them to warn them.
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Chris22

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2489 on: April 28, 2017, 09:57:13 AM »
Wow, I didn't think my observation would stir up so much emotion!  But I stand by it.  Here's some of the arguments that pro gun people put forth.  I'm going to leave out the "it's in the constitution" portion because the entire discussion is about if and how that should be changed. 

So here are the main arguments that I see from the pro liberty people:

1. We might have a societal collapse, Soviet Union style and guns protect us in that situation
2. Our government might overstep and become a totalitarian state and guns protect us from that
3. Someone might break into my home or car and guns protect me from that
4. Other people might get attacked on the street or in public and a gun will protect the person being attacked
5. I just collect guns, I don't actually use them for anything

In every instance (except #5), they are all based on the idea of being attacked or threatened in some way.

If you feel like you are under a threat, then yes a gun is an entirely rational choice to protect you from that threat.  And no amount of data or statistics will ever convince you otherwise, because you just know that the world is a dangerous place and a gun is very useful to counter act that danger.

I'm not saying the desire to own a gun isn't rational, if your pre-supposition is that the world is a dangerous place. 

My contention is that the core feeling that you have of being under threat and the world being dangerous - THAT is fear. 

I also know as men, you (and I) are never, ever allowed to say "Yes, I do this out of fear".  It's only ever acceptable for us to say "well I'm a protector and also I like to be prepared, just in case". But in truth, if we weren't convinced that there is danger in the world, then we wouldn't feel the need to own guns.

Would you say there ISN'T danger in the world? 

I don't think "fear" is the right word.  I think it's more of a wary caution.  Or a desire to be be prepared.  I have lots of tools in my house that I have in case I need to fix things.  I'm not AFRAID of things breaking, I'm just aware of the possibility, and would like to be prepared in case I need them.  I wear seatbelts in the car.  I'm not AFRAID of car accidents, but they occur and I'd rather be wearing one if the eventuality happens.  And on and on. 


I will again ask, if I have jumped through the (many) hoops it takes to become a lawful gun owner, and based on the statistics we can say lawful gun owners are extremely unlikely to commit a crime with their guns, do you have a fear of me lawfully owning weapons?  Is this fear any more rational than the one you ascribe to me? 
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tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2490 on: April 28, 2017, 10:07:23 AM »
Wow, I didn't think my observation would stir up so much emotion!  But I stand by it.  Here's some of the arguments that pro gun people put forth.  I'm going to leave out the "it's in the constitution" portion because the entire discussion is about if and how that should be changed. 

So here are the main arguments that I see from the pro liberty people:

1. We might have a societal collapse, Soviet Union style and guns protect us in that situation
2. Our government might overstep and become a totalitarian state and guns protect us from that
3. Someone might break into my home or car and guns protect me from that
4. Other people might get attacked on the street or in public and a gun will protect the person being attacked
5. I just collect guns, I don't actually use them for anything

In every instance (except #5), they are all based on the idea of being attacked or threatened in some way.

If you feel like you are under a threat, then yes a gun is an entirely rational choice to protect you from that threat.  And no amount of data or statistics will ever convince you otherwise, because you just know that the world is a dangerous place and a gun is very useful to counter act that danger.

I'm not saying the desire to own a gun isn't rational, if your pre-supposition is that the world is a dangerous place. 

My contention is that the core feeling that you have of being under threat and the world being dangerous - THAT is fear. 

I also know as men, you (and I) are never, ever allowed to say "Yes, I do this out of fear".  It's only ever acceptable for us to say "well I'm a protector and also I like to be prepared, just in case". But in truth, if we weren't convinced that there is danger in the world, then we wouldn't feel the need to own guns.

Would you say there ISN'T danger in the world? 

I don't think "fear" is the right word.  I think it's more of a wary caution.  Or a desire to be be prepared.  I have lots of tools in my house that I have in case I need to fix things.  I'm not AFRAID of things breaking, I'm just aware of the possibility, and would like to be prepared in case I need them.  I wear seatbelts in the car.  I'm not AFRAID of car accidents, but they occur and I'd rather be wearing one if the eventuality happens.  And on and on. 


I will again ask, if I have jumped through the (many) hoops it takes to become a lawful gun owner, and based on the statistics we can say lawful gun owners are extremely unlikely to commit a crime with their guns, do you have a fear of me lawfully owning weapons?  Is this fear any more rational than the one you ascribe to me?

Eh, tools (or fire extinguishers) are not deadly weapons.  So I don't think that's an apt comparison.  Having a tool that puts out fires is not the same thing as having a deadly weapon that's designed to kill people.  In fact, statistically, if you want to increase the chance of someone in your home getting harmed by a gun, well just go buy one. 

But that's a fact that is going to be discounted because everyone feels that "well I am responsible and that won't happen to me".  But it might.  And it might happen to a much higher degree than if the gun wasn't there in the first place. 

I would say the USA in the 21st century is actually pretty safe.  The data backs me up on that.  But the data doesn't matter to gun owners because they just know 'in their gut' that the world just isn't safe.

I'm not really even arguing against that idea (the world isn't safe), I'm ONLY pointing out that it's a strong emotion and that human beings aren't swayed by data when their gut tells them otherwise. 

That's why I put my 5 point set of arguments up - to show that these are the main reasons people own guns, and 4 of them depend on the idea that the world is dangerous.

My follow up point is that arguing about these 5 points is pointless until/unless the pre-suppositions that they are all based on are deal with first.  That's all. 
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2491 on: April 28, 2017, 10:15:00 AM »
Okay, let's set aside the argument, and we will stipulate for the moment that the reason people own guns is, in part, because of 'fear'.

So?  What does that win you?
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tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2492 on: April 28, 2017, 10:25:58 AM »
Then we move the discussion there, to that point.  Because talking about the others just gets us arguing in circles. 
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2493 on: April 28, 2017, 10:27:32 AM »
Then we move the discussion there, to that point.  Because talking about the others just gets us arguing in circles.

But if I still want to own a gun to assuage that fear, what has that bought you?  You still aren't taking my guns.
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tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2494 on: April 28, 2017, 10:36:22 AM »
Then we move the discussion there, to that point.  Because talking about the others just gets us arguing in circles.

But if I still want to own a gun to assuage that fear, what has that bought you?  You still aren't taking my guns.

True.  I guess my perspective comes from debating for a long time with the creationist folks about evolution.  They also had the data and facts against them, but everything I'd present to them as factual and compelling was discounted because at their core, they felt threatened by it, and thus all my attempts to talk about the fossil record and the utility of carbon dating, etc... it was all pointless.

I feel like the same dynamic is happening with the gun debate.  Even though we live in a low crime time and place, it doesn't matter.  Hell, even if we lived in a ZERO crime time/place, I can just hear the pro-liberty person saying "Yeah, well maybe there's no crime right now, but crime MIGHT happen so I'm gonna be prepared". 

Honestly I don't really know how to resolve it.  I think there might not actually be a solution.  Same as with the evolution debates.  Eventually I just had to stop engaging with those people because there was no way to get to common ground.
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Lagom

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2495 on: April 28, 2017, 10:40:15 AM »
Okay, let's set aside the argument, and we will stipulate for the moment that the reason people own guns is, in part, because of 'fear'.

So?  What does that win you?

Well for me, as I pointed out pages ago during a similar discussion, many pro-gun advocates like to claim that they are arguing from a place of logic and reason, while gun-control advocates are arguing from a place of irrational fear (e.g. of mass shootings). I think it's fair to point out that the fear runs both ways, just as there is logic and reason behind enforcing some kinds of gun restrictions, though where that line lays is the crux of this debate, of course.

And to save myself the grief of having to rehash my views, I am one of those people who won't buy a gun for reasons based on logic (statistically increased likelihood that it would be used against me, accident with my kids, etc.), but who also doesn't support strict gun control and who thinks many/most pro-gun advocates are just terrible at arguing their case but are generally decent people.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2496 on: April 28, 2017, 11:10:12 AM »
Moments like this is when I truly feel like an immigrant because well for the most part, I don't think a lot of us get why there is a borderline religious aspect to gun ownership in America. It's also a very cultural thing. For instance, I never worry about someone breaking in with a gun. In fact, should that happen, I would assume they want something and the intent is not to kill but to steal. Hence, I'll give them what they want. If their intent is to harm me. I would assume, they have definitely planned this meticulously and me having a gun in the house is not going to make a difference. Also that I believe a majority of homicides the victim knew the person.

I will agree that fear runs both ways. Some people don't want guns because they don't want to be in an Oscar Pistorius type of situation, others want guns because they feel it protects them.

On the argument though of how guns don't necessarily lower crimes and there are mass stabbings in certain countries and some people throw rocks at each other, I will agree that's true, but would I rather someone coming at me with a knife or a gun? I'll pick the knife any day. I'd like to see someone who makes this argument tell me they would rather have someone come at them with a gun over a knife or a rock, because unless you are fictitiously fighting a twelve year old boy by the name of David, you are picking the rock.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2497 on: April 28, 2017, 11:23:52 AM »
Rimu, I totally agree.  We do, in fact, live in a very safe country:





Those are crazy, crazy low crime rates. 

But it doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter, for the exact reasons I outlined above.  Data and facts simply aren't convincing to a gun owner in the USA.  Their typical response will be something along the lines of "Yeah, well those graphs won't protect you when someone breaks into your home!". 

They have a deeply embedded sense of being under threat, which is fear, and that cannot be addressed in a debate or via facts/evidence. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 11:25:53 AM by tyort1 »
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Chris22

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2498 on: April 28, 2017, 12:16:26 PM »
Okay, let's set aside the argument, and we will stipulate for the moment that the reason people own guns is, in part, because of 'fear'.

So?  What does that win you?

Well for me, as I pointed out pages ago during a similar discussion, many pro-gun advocates like to claim that they are arguing from a place of logic and reason, while gun-control advocates are arguing from a place of irrational fear (e.g. of mass shootings). I think it's fair to point out that the fear runs both ways, just as there is logic and reason behind enforcing some kinds of gun restrictions, though where that line lays is the crux of this debate, of course.

The problem is, though, people who buy legally guns out of "fear" do not harm or threaten the rights of anyone else.  People who make asinine rules outlawing guns or types of guns do.  Contrary to what some think, my owning a gun has zero effect on anyone else.
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2499 on: April 28, 2017, 12:18:25 PM »
Wow, I didn't think my observation would stir up so much emotion!  But I stand by it.  Here's some of the arguments that pro gun people put forth.  I'm going to leave out the "it's in the constitution" portion because the entire discussion is about if and how that should be changed. 

So here are the main arguments that I see from the pro liberty people:

1. We might have a societal collapse, Soviet Union style and guns protect us in that situation
2. Our government might overstep and become a totalitarian state and guns protect us from that
3. Someone might break into my home or car and guns protect me from that
4. Other people might get attacked on the street or in public and a gun will protect the person being attacked
5. I just collect guns, I don't actually use them for anything

In every instance (except #5), they are all based on the idea of being attacked or threatened in some way.

If you feel like you are under a threat, then yes a gun is an entirely rational choice to protect you from that threat.  And no amount of data or statistics will ever convince you otherwise, because you just know that the world is a dangerous place and a gun is very useful to counter act that danger.

I'm not saying the desire to own a gun isn't rational, if your pre-supposition is that the world is a dangerous place. 

My contention is that the core feeling that you have of being under threat and the world being dangerous - THAT is fear. 

I also know as men, you (and I) are never, ever allowed to say "Yes, I do this out of fear".  It's only ever acceptable for us to say "well I'm a protector and also I like to be prepared, just in case". But in truth, if we weren't convinced that there is danger in the world, then we wouldn't feel the need to own guns.

Would you say there ISN'T danger in the world? 

I don't think "fear" is the right word.  I think it's more of a wary caution.  Or a desire to be be prepared.  I have lots of tools in my house that I have in case I need to fix things.  I'm not AFRAID of things breaking, I'm just aware of the possibility, and would like to be prepared in case I need them.  I wear seatbelts in the car.  I'm not AFRAID of car accidents, but they occur and I'd rather be wearing one if the eventuality happens.  And on and on. 


I will again ask, if I have jumped through the (many) hoops it takes to become a lawful gun owner, and based on the statistics we can say lawful gun owners are extremely unlikely to commit a crime with their guns, do you have a fear of me lawfully owning weapons?  Is this fear any more rational than the one you ascribe to me?

Eh, tools (or fire extinguishers) are not deadly weapons.  So I don't think that's an apt comparison.  Having a tool that puts out fires is not the same thing as having a deadly weapon that's designed to kill people.  In fact, statistically, if you want to increase the chance of someone in your home getting harmed by a gun, well just go buy one. 

But that's a fact that is going to be discounted because everyone feels that "well I am responsible and that won't happen to me".  But it might.  And it might happen to a much higher degree than if the gun wasn't there in the first place. 

I would say the USA in the 21st century is actually pretty safe.  The data backs me up on that.  But the data doesn't matter to gun owners because they just know 'in their gut' that the world just isn't safe.

I'm not really even arguing against that idea (the world isn't safe), I'm ONLY pointing out that it's a strong emotion and that human beings aren't swayed by data when their gut tells them otherwise. 

That's why I put my 5 point set of arguments up - to show that these are the main reasons people own guns, and 4 of them depend on the idea that the world is dangerous.

My follow up point is that arguing about these 5 points is pointless until/unless the pre-suppositions that they are all based on are deal with first.  That's all.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

You're completely ignoring target shooters and hunters, FYI.