Author Topic: Firearms in the home  (Read 345947 times)

Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2400 on: February 27, 2017, 06:55:20 PM »
Thankfully good countries like Canada have no recent mass shootings with their strict gun laws. Oh, wait a minute...
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Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2401 on: February 27, 2017, 07:17:02 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/african-american-gun-club-trump/index.html

An article on people buying guns in reaction to the Trump election. 
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Abe

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2402 on: February 27, 2017, 07:58:09 PM »
I'm in that group - have always felt we have the right to bear arms but never felt threatened enough to bother. Definitely going to get trained and armed up now. Not because of Trump but because of all the nutbags shouting their mouths off about ethno-states and other such bullshit. Likelihood they'll do anything other than feel smugly superior is low, but not zero.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2403 on: February 27, 2017, 08:03:52 PM »
I'm in that group - have always felt we have the right to bear arms but never felt threatened enough to bother. Definitely going to get trained and armed up now. Not because of Trump but because of all the nutbags shouting their mouths off about ethno-states and other such bullshit. Likelihood they'll do anything other than feel smugly superior is low, but not zero.
Welcome to the gun nut side! :)

Please keep us updated through your journey.  Your focus on training and safety will serve you well.
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Abe

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2404 on: February 27, 2017, 08:19:42 PM »
I'm in that group - have always felt we have the right to bear arms but never felt threatened enough to bother. Definitely going to get trained and armed up now. Not because of Trump but because of all the nutbags shouting their mouths off about ethno-states and other such bullshit. Likelihood they'll do anything other than feel smugly superior is low, but not zero.
Welcome to the gun nut side! :)

Please keep us updated through your journey.  Your focus on training and safety will serve you well.

Appreciate it. I've trained with swords and other implements but not much with guns. My family has a >500 year record of service as soldiers, I'm the first male adult to not have served in that capacity. Point is not to brag but emphasize that safety with weapons (sword or gun) is incredibly important in my culture.

Kris

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2405 on: February 27, 2017, 08:27:40 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/african-american-gun-club-trump/index.html

An article on people buying guns in reaction to the Trump election.

Yeah, how can you blame African-Americans for wanting to arm themselves against Trump supporters?
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golden1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2406 on: February 28, 2017, 08:15:53 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns? 

ncornilsen

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2407 on: February 28, 2017, 08:22:09 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?

I actually think it's a great thing, democrats arming themselves. Maybe they'll see the value in having an effective means of resisting a truly tyrannical government. Not holding my breath.

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2408 on: February 28, 2017, 08:40:22 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?

You're writing as if that hasn't happened.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/texas-news/armed-protesters-added-to-confusion-in-dallas-attack/269891077

Kris

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2409 on: February 28, 2017, 08:49:17 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?

You're writing as if that hasn't happened.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/texas-news/armed-protesters-added-to-confusion-in-dallas-attack/269891077

Why didn't they just wear shirts that said "Good guy"? Then the police would have known who they were. Problem solved!
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Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2410 on: February 28, 2017, 09:28:48 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?
Think of the Anarchy! Armed protestors walking around freely!

But seriously golden, where in this thread has anyone said liberals should not have guns? The only people who are afraid of people with guns seem to be the gun control enthusiasts. Everyone else is more than supportive of people who choose to buy guns, no matter their political views.  The media will play up the crazies on both sides, but in this thread I have not seen it. Do you have quotes from this thread to show what you are referring to?
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2411 on: February 28, 2017, 09:59:05 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?

I actually think it's a great thing, democrats arming themselves. Maybe they'll see the value in having an effective means of resisting a truly tyrannical government. Not holding my breath.
How do they think they are going to fight off the Trump government with their pea shooters? Typical red dawn stuff.

African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
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zolotiyeruki

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2412 on: February 28, 2017, 12:27:08 PM »
Quote
I don't recognize that.  Sure, there are a few extremists that want to repeal the second amendment, but that doesn't cover the vast majority of gun control advocates.    You are all upset that I have mentioned that " people want everyone to carry a gun", but I have heard that line of thinking on the extreme margins of the pro gun people.  Perhaps you would do the gun control people the courtesy of not judging the majority by the most extreme position, and I will do the same for pro gun people.
Thanks for being open minded and flexible..... :P  I kid, I kid. 

Seriously, though, look at New York state with the SAFE Act.  Confiscation right there.  Look at Chicago, where you couldn't even own a handgun until recently.  Look at Washington DC.  That's not just a few extremists, sorry.  Sure, there are lots of "moderates," but when you look at the people actually writing the laws, there are plenty of politicians willing to go that far.

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable.
Before we keep on debating this, I think we need to clarify a bit--are we discussing murder, or suicide?  While guns are a tool commonly used in both, the two problems have very different causes, and I believe they need to be addressed separately.

I get your desire to reduce gun violence, and I think we're all in favor of that.  Unfortunately, the desire to "do something, anything!" has been the motivation behind many, many bad laws, especially anti-gun laws.  If you have a specific proposal that you think would help, then by all means let's discuss it and explore the positives and negatives.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2413 on: February 28, 2017, 12:30:29 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2414 on: February 28, 2017, 12:35:17 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2415 on: February 28, 2017, 12:45:13 PM »
To repeat myself, end the drug war, legalize most drugs, and kill the for-profit prison system (we almost did it, sigh...). Big reduction in gun murders pretty likely to result from the above. Far less overcrowding in prisons, too, many millions/billions of dollars in wasted federal spending saved. Many billions of dollars in tax revenue generated. Little downside as far as I'm concerned despite baseless claims to the contrary. We just have to overcome the hysterical Jeff Sessions type of people.

ncornilsen

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2416 on: February 28, 2017, 01:12:11 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims. I'd go on to add that arming yourself and getting training to responsibly protect yourself against a threat from any source is a commendable and I would encourage it.

Kris

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2417 on: February 28, 2017, 02:21:11 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims.

Not quite.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers
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Gin1984

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2418 on: February 28, 2017, 02:47:33 PM »
Quote
I don't recognize that.  Sure, there are a few extremists that want to repeal the second amendment, but that doesn't cover the vast majority of gun control advocates.    You are all upset that I have mentioned that " people want everyone to carry a gun", but I have heard that line of thinking on the extreme margins of the pro gun people.  Perhaps you would do the gun control people the courtesy of not judging the majority by the most extreme position, and I will do the same for pro gun people.
Thanks for being open minded and flexible..... :P  I kid, I kid. 

Seriously, though, look at New York state with the SAFE Act.  Confiscation right there.  Look at Chicago, where you couldn't even own a handgun until recently.  Look at Washington DC.  That's not just a few extremists, sorry.  Sure, there are lots of "moderates," but when you look at the people actually writing the laws, there are plenty of politicians willing to go that far.

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable.
Before we keep on debating this, I think we need to clarify a bit--are we discussing murder, or suicide?  While guns are a tool commonly used in both, the two problems have very different causes, and I believe they need to be addressed separately.

I get your desire to reduce gun violence, and I think we're all in favor of that.  Unfortunately, the desire to "do something, anything!" has been the motivation behind many, many bad laws, especially anti-gun laws.  If you have a specific proposal that you think would help, then by all means let's discuss it and explore the positives and negatives.
I live in NYS, can you explain to me how the safe act is confiscation?

MishMash

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2419 on: February 28, 2017, 02:51:01 PM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?
Think of the Anarchy! Armed protestors walking around freely!

But seriously golden, where in this thread has anyone said liberals should not have guns? The only people who are afraid of people with guns seem to be the gun control enthusiasts. Everyone else is more than supportive of people who choose to buy guns, no matter their political views.  The media will play up the crazies on both sides, but in this thread I have not seen it. Do you have quotes from this thread to show what you are referring to?

DH is military and we are both wealthy, liberal, Democrats with an epic CRAP ton of guns.  Seems like it should be an oxymoron, but it's not, we do exist.  You kind of have to walk a delicate line, like we do think there should be a few common sense gun laws out there (like I shouldn't really be able to trade a kayak for 2k rounds of ammo and 2 weapons, legally, in my driveway, with no checks needed, like I have in the past.  And yes, I TOTALLY got the better end of that deal) but talking to my coworker who thinks all weapons with clips should be banned 100% (seriously) makes me want to throat punch his stupidity. 

I sometimes feel like we are the rare unicorn in the world, Liberal in most ways, democrats, but loving our weapons.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2420 on: February 28, 2017, 03:29:06 PM »
I live in NYS, can you explain to me how the safe act is confiscation?
It's not a blanket confiscation, but it's happening: http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Gun-confiscation-prompts-lawsuit-10818702.php

ncornilsen

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2421 on: February 28, 2017, 04:52:05 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims.

Not quite.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

From your source:

"The vast majority of homicide victims are killed by people of their own race." "...However, the share of black-on-black homicides as a proportion of black people killed actually fell by just under 1 percentage point, to 89.3 percent."   

So, I don't understand what I got wrong. The trend seems to show white people as a slightly increasing, but relatively small, source of violence for black people.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if you find the portion of my statement about it being foolish for white people to arm themselves specifically against Muslim violence to be objectionable, then it would be hard to reconcile that with your unstated but implied support of black people arming themselves against white people.

I'd like to compare Metric Mouse's statement to a statement in the article you linked:

MM:
"African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man."
 
US News:
"The vast majority of homicide victims are killed by people of their own race. "

Sort of seems like MM overstated the risk black people face from Trump supporters.

If your point is that there was a slight increase in the proportion of black victims of white violence, then, well, yeah.. trends change, and racial tensions are growing for whatever reason, and that's manifesting itself as a marginal change in the break down of what races are doing violence to others.

I don't think we're in disagreement about the facts, so maybe it's interpretation?

I look at this data and conclude that it's foolish for a black person to arm themselves specifically to ward off the threat of white people. Exactly as I look other data and think it's foolish to for a white person to arm themselves specifically to ward off the threat of black or Muslim people. I do, however, think it's a great idea for all people to arm themselves, train themselves, and throw off the victim mentality to increase their self sufficiency and ability to protect themselves, from any source of violence they encounter.

If you disagree with my statement, what am I to conclude? Semi-condescending quips like 'not quite' don't really help anything.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 04:59:16 PM by ncornilsen »

spartana

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2422 on: February 28, 2017, 06:55:04 PM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?
Think of the Anarchy! Armed protestors walking around freely!

But seriously golden, where in this thread has anyone said liberals should not have guns? The only people who are afraid of people with guns seem to be the gun control enthusiasts. Everyone else is more than supportive of people who choose to buy guns, no matter their political views.  The media will play up the crazies on both sides, but in this thread I have not seen it. Do you have quotes from this thread to show what you are referring to?

DH is military and we are both wealthy, liberal, Democrats with an epic CRAP ton of guns.  Seems like it should be an oxymoron, but it's not, we do exist.  You kind of have to walk a delicate line, like we do think there should be a few common sense gun laws out there (like I shouldn't really be able to trade a kayak for 2k rounds of ammo and 2 weapons, legally, in my driveway, with no checks needed, like I have in the past.  And yes, I TOTALLY got the better end of that deal) but talking to my coworker who thinks all weapons with clips should be banned 100% (seriously) makes me want to throat punch his stupidity. 

I sometimes feel like we are the rare unicorn in the world, Liberal in most ways, democrats, but loving our weapons.
I'm a rare unicorn too apparently - liberal, voted Democrat, multiple gun owner. I know tones of people just like me so I think we aren't as rare as Golden1 thinks we are.
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2423 on: February 28, 2017, 08:02:04 PM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?
Think of the Anarchy! Armed protestors walking around freely!

But seriously golden, where in this thread has anyone said liberals should not have guns? The only people who are afraid of people with guns seem to be the gun control enthusiasts. Everyone else is more than supportive of people who choose to buy guns, no matter their political views.  The media will play up the crazies on both sides, but in this thread I have not seen it. Do you have quotes from this thread to show what you are referring to?

DH is military and we are both wealthy, liberal, Democrats with an epic CRAP ton of guns.  Seems like it should be an oxymoron, but it's not, we do exist.  You kind of have to walk a delicate line, like we do think there should be a few common sense gun laws out there (like I shouldn't really be able to trade a kayak for 2k rounds of ammo and 2 weapons, legally, in my driveway, with no checks needed, like I have in the past.  And yes, I TOTALLY got the better end of that deal) but talking to my coworker who thinks all weapons with clips should be banned 100% (seriously) makes me want to throat punch his stupidity. 

I sometimes feel like we are the rare unicorn in the world, Liberal in most ways, democrats, but loving our weapons.
I'm a rare unicorn too apparently - liberal, voted Democrat, multiple gun owner. I know tones of people just like me so I think we aren't as rare as Golden1 thinks we are.

Add me to the 'generally identifies as liberal except for guns' unicorn club.

spartana

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2424 on: February 28, 2017, 08:13:41 PM »
^ You mean unicorns WITH guns ;-)
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2425 on: February 28, 2017, 09:04:05 PM »
^ You mean unicorns WITH guns ;-)

lol ah yes, that. Poorly phrased on my part.

Gin1984

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2426 on: March 01, 2017, 06:43:33 AM »
I live in NYS, can you explain to me how the safe act is confiscation?
It's not a blanket confiscation, but it's happening: http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Gun-confiscation-prompts-lawsuit-10818702.php
I agree with her lawsuit, she should have had a lawyer.  However, that is not blanket confiscation.  It is set to remove guns from people who are mentally not competent and there was an error, which could have been avoided if she had a lawyer.  Seems a simple solution and not blanket confiscation.

MishMash

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2427 on: March 01, 2017, 07:13:35 AM »
^ You mean unicorns WITH guns ;-)

BWAHAHAHA  Love it!

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2428 on: March 01, 2017, 08:15:22 AM »
I definitely did not read through the whole thread, but I didn't see any mention of this podcast episode: https://gimletmedia.com/episode/guns/

Science Vs is an awesome show  ^_^

All their references are listed there on the site as well.
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golden1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2429 on: March 01, 2017, 08:17:56 AM »
I do agree that "gun violence" is a broad umbrella term that demands separate solutions to some degree. 

Suicide is an interesting one because it touches me personally.  As someone who has depression, I would be hesitant to own a gun, and I probably shouldn't ever own one TBH.  As I said upthread, one of my friends from high school killed himself with one of many guns he owned, and it looked like he was contemplating taking other out with him.  He was diagnosed with major depression and had made suicidal threats multiple times.   Yet the Trump administration wants to make it easier for people like me and him to own a gun.  While it could mean that a mentally ill violent person could cause a mass shooting, the more likely outcome is a bump in the suicide rate.  I could totally see how access to a gun in a bad moment could lead to successful suicide much easier than other methods.  There is no current mental illness treatment that could detect or counteract that with any reliability. 


golden1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2430 on: March 01, 2017, 08:23:54 AM »
And when I say liberals should become "gun nuts", I am more talking about extremist groups like the Black Panther party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

When "certain" people carry guns, gun control becomes okay.  Even Reagan agreed. 
 
Strangely enough, nothing similar seemed to happen when a bunch of separatists in Oregon started causing trouble. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2431 on: March 01, 2017, 08:25:17 AM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims.

Not quite.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers
Oh please... did you even read this? It exactly backs up my points.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2432 on: March 01, 2017, 08:30:18 AM »
And when I say liberals should become "gun nuts", I am more talking about extremist groups like the Black Panther party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

When "certain" people carry guns, gun control becomes okay.  Even Reagan agreed. 
 
Strangely enough, nothing similar seemed to happen when a bunch of separatists in Oregon started causing trouble.
Anything from this thread indicating people engaged in this conversation feel thay way, or just a 50 year old law from one of the most pro gun control states in the union, which very few people are arguing should be a model for national laws. And those that are, are not on the pro gun rights side of the argument.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 12:53:55 PM by Metric Mouse »
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zolotiyeruki

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2433 on: March 01, 2017, 09:48:38 AM »
I live in NYS, can you explain to me how the safe act is confiscation?
It's not a blanket confiscation, but it's happening: http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Gun-confiscation-prompts-lawsuit-10818702.php
I agree with her lawsuit, she should have had a lawyer.  However, that is not blanket confiscation.  It is set to remove guns from people who are mentally not competent and there was an error, which could have been avoided if she had a lawyer.  Seems a simple solution and not blanket confiscation.
I wasn't trying to claim that this was blanket confiscation.  But it illustrates clearly 1) how registration leads to confiscation, and 2) how easily that confiscation can happen and/or be abused when there is no due process.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2434 on: March 02, 2017, 04:14:05 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims.

Not quite.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers
  Wow, that chart is disturbing.  I had no idea blacks were killing so many whites in comparison to the reverse.  Thanks for shattering my illusions, Kris.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2435 on: March 02, 2017, 04:28:36 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims.

Not quite.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

From your source:

"The vast majority of homicide victims are killed by people of their own race." "...However, the share of black-on-black homicides as a proportion of black people killed actually fell by just under 1 percentage point, to 89.3 percent."   

So, I don't understand what I got wrong. The trend seems to show white people as a slightly increasing, but relatively small, source of violence for black people.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if you find the portion of my statement about it being foolish for white people to arm themselves specifically against Muslim violence to be objectionable, then it would be hard to reconcile that with your unstated but implied support of black people arming themselves against white people.

I'd like to compare Metric Mouse's statement to a statement in the article you linked:

MM:
"African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man."
 
US News:
"The vast majority of homicide victims are killed by people of their own race. "

Sort of seems like MM overstated the risk black people face from Trump supporters.

If your point is that there was a slight increase in the proportion of black victims of white violence, then, well, yeah.. trends change, and racial tensions are growing for whatever reason, and that's manifesting itself as a marginal change in the break down of what races are doing violence to others.

I don't think we're in disagreement about the facts, so maybe it's interpretation?

I look at this data and conclude that it's foolish for a black person to arm themselves specifically to ward off the threat of white people. Exactly as I look other data and think it's foolish to for a white person to arm themselves specifically to ward off the threat of black or Muslim people. I do, however, think it's a great idea for all people to arm themselves, train themselves, and throw off the victim mentality to increase their self sufficiency and ability to protect themselves, from any source of violence they encounter.

If you disagree with my statement, what am I to conclude? Semi-condescending quips like 'not quite' don't really help anything.

Sigh.

I said "not quite." As in, it's more complicated than that. As this article shows.

The article points out that inter-racial homicide is on the rise. It's one of the few areas where the rates are increasing.

"The number of black people killed by whites a demographic in the FBI report that includes those of Hispanic descent surged by nearly a quarter in 2015 from the year before, as the number of whites killed by blacks jumped 12 percent. Together, such interracial killings increased about 13 percent from 2014."

The number of black people who killed whites and the number of whites who killed blacks climbed to levels not seen since 2008.

It's quite possible that this trend will continue. I will refrain from speculating as to what specific cultural trends in our society might help contribute to that, but I think one might manage to point to a few factors that would lead one to conclude that this upward trend may continue.

Therefore, I think it's not too surprising that blacks would perceive a greater threat from whites more recently. And that perception in and of itself may contribute to the problem in the future.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2436 on: March 02, 2017, 07:40:06 PM »
Therefore, I think it's not too surprising that blacks would perceive a greater threat from whites more recently. And that perception in and of itself may contribute to the problem in the future.
Oh, no doubt there are several reasons people might perceive that they are more threatened by one group than another. They are completely wrong, and silly for thinking such a thing in face of overwhelming contrary evidence, but people's perceptions are funny things.

This is what is so great about this thread; it offers evidence to combat people's perceptions of the dangers of firearms. And certainly African Americans are in far more danger from other African Americans with guns than whites. And, from your link, whites are in more danger from African Americans with guns than African Americans are from whites with guns, statically speaking, though both those dangers are rising in small amounts, absolutely speaking.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2437 on: March 03, 2017, 02:36:00 PM »
I am another liberal who is not pushing more gun control laws.  My husband owns the firearms and the permits since he is former military and I don't want the hassle of dealing with it myself.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2438 on: March 03, 2017, 05:10:57 PM »
I'm also a liberal that is perfectly fine with people owning guns.  I have several firearms that are still kept on the farm where I spent my summers growing up in Texas.  I don't have them in the city where I live now because crime is so low, we have a dog and a child.  Dogs seem to be more of a deterrent than guns in low crime areas.  And I don't mind teaching my daughter to shoot at the farm, but it's just too risky to keep in the house we live in.  These are my choices.  Others can do what they please.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2439 on: March 04, 2017, 02:42:13 PM »
I'm also a liberal that is perfectly fine with people owning guns.  I have several firearms that are still kept on the farm where I spent my summers growing up in Texas.  I don't have them in the city where I live now because crime is so low, we have a dog and a child.  Dogs seem to be more of a deterrent than guns in low crime areas.  And I don't mind teaching my daughter to shoot at the farm, but it's just too risky to keep in the house we live in.  These are my choices.  Others can do what they please.
Awesome.

Do you think people who have grown up with guns, or have spouses who own guns (mil/le experience, as above) are more aware of how guns can be used and stored safely than some other people, and thus less inclined to infringe upon other's rights?
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tyort1

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2440 on: March 04, 2017, 03:12:36 PM »
I'm also a liberal that is perfectly fine with people owning guns.  I have several firearms that are still kept on the farm where I spent my summers growing up in Texas.  I don't have them in the city where I live now because crime is so low, we have a dog and a child.  Dogs seem to be more of a deterrent than guns in low crime areas.  And I don't mind teaching my daughter to shoot at the farm, but it's just too risky to keep in the house we live in.  These are my choices.  Others can do what they please.
Awesome.

Do you think people who have grown up with guns, or have spouses who own guns (mil/le experience, as above) are more aware of how guns can be used and stored safely than some other people, and thus less inclined to infringe upon other's rights?

Oh sure.  Its just like with gay people.  If you personally know someone that is gay, you're way less likely to be homophobic.  And with guns - if you know people and they treat guns with the respect and safety that's needed, its a lot easier to be OK about guns.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2441 on: March 04, 2017, 06:49:14 PM »
I'm also a liberal that is perfectly fine with people owning guns.  I have several firearms that are still kept on the farm where I spent my summers growing up in Texas.  I don't have them in the city where I live now because crime is so low, we have a dog and a child.  Dogs seem to be more of a deterrent than guns in low crime areas.  And I don't mind teaching my daughter to shoot at the farm, but it's just too risky to keep in the house we live in.  These are my choices.  Others can do what they please.
Awesome.

Do you think people who have grown up with guns, or have spouses who own guns (mil/le experience, as above) are more aware of how guns can be used and stored safely than some other people, and thus less inclined to infringe upon other's rights?

Oh sure.  Its just like with gay people.  If you personally know someone that is gay, you're way less likely to be homophobic.  And with guns - if you know people and they treat guns with the respect and safety that's needed, its a lot easier to be OK about guns.

Yeah, this.  If you travel internationally, chances are you're less scared of foreign countries than someone who never left their hometown.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2442 on: March 04, 2017, 07:42:54 PM »
Regarding racial violence stat trends, most of gun violence is among people who know each other.   Hence since historically races have been somewhat community-based and segregated, vuala, the stats.  Now add a trend for less segregation and more mixed race families and relationships, then the cross race violence rates go up, at a greater pace.  Has less to do with changing rated of interracial violence, then following overall population "racial mingling" trends that gun violence.  I imagine the rising percentages of cross racial job references and marriages are similar.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 07:54:38 PM by PizzaSteve »
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2443 on: March 04, 2017, 10:27:51 PM »
I'm also a liberal that is perfectly fine with people owning guns.  I have several firearms that are still kept on the farm where I spent my summers growing up in Texas.  I don't have them in the city where I live now because crime is so low, we have a dog and a child.  Dogs seem to be more of a deterrent than guns in low crime areas.  And I don't mind teaching my daughter to shoot at the farm, but it's just too risky to keep in the house we live in.  These are my choices.  Others can do what they please.
Awesome.

Do you think people who have grown up with guns, or have spouses who own guns (mil/le experience, as above) are more aware of how guns can be used and stored safely than some other people, and thus less inclined to infringe upon other's rights?

Oh sure.  Its just like with gay people.  If you personally know someone that is gay, you're way less likely to be homophobic.  And with guns - if you know people and they treat guns with the respect and safety that's needed, its a lot easier to be OK about guns.

This is a great comparison. 2nd Amendment crusaders who lean right take note.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2444 on: March 05, 2017, 06:51:48 AM »
I'm also a liberal that is perfectly fine with people owning guns.  I have several firearms that are still kept on the farm where I spent my summers growing up in Texas.  I don't have them in the city where I live now because crime is so low, we have a dog and a child.  Dogs seem to be more of a deterrent than guns in low crime areas.  And I don't mind teaching my daughter to shoot at the farm, but it's just too risky to keep in the house we live in.  These are my choices.  Others can do what they please.
Awesome.

Do you think people who have grown up with guns, or have spouses who own guns (mil/le experience, as above) are more aware of how guns can be used and stored safely than some other people, and thus less inclined to infringe upon other's rights?

Oh sure.  Its just like with gay people.  If you personally know someone that is gay, you're way less likely to be homophobic.  And with guns - if you know people and they treat guns with the respect and safety that's needed, its a lot easier to be OK about guns.

This is a great comparison. 2nd Amendment crusaders who lean right take note.

And with transgender kids who need a place to pee without being assaulted.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2445 on: March 05, 2017, 07:54:40 AM »
I'm also a liberal that is perfectly fine with people owning guns.  I have several firearms that are still kept on the farm where I spent my summers growing up in Texas.  I don't have them in the city where I live now because crime is so low, we have a dog and a child.  Dogs seem to be more of a deterrent than guns in low crime areas.  And I don't mind teaching my daughter to shoot at the farm, but it's just too risky to keep in the house we live in.  These are my choices.  Others can do what they please.
Awesome.

Do you think people who have grown up with guns, or have spouses who own guns (mil/le experience, as above) are more aware of how guns can be used and stored safely than some other people, and thus less inclined to infringe upon other's rights?

Oh sure.  Its just like with gay people.  If you personally know someone that is gay, you're way less likely to be homophobic.  And with guns - if you know people and they treat guns with the respect and safety that's needed, its a lot easier to be OK about guns.

I grew up with guns in the house (rifles and shotguns) and spent a lot of my childhood hunting.  I'm OK with guns.  I'm also OK with gun control, because I grew up in a country with sensible gun laws.  Maybe more people in the US need this exposure to allay the palpable fear that the words "gun control" elicit.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2446 on: March 06, 2017, 05:53:46 AM »
I'm also OK with gun control, because I grew up in a country with sensible gun laws.  Maybe more people in the US need this exposure to allay the palpable fear that the words "gun control" elicit.

Perhaps if people who constantly use the term "gun control" would be honest and say "people control", "gun control" would not be equated with the abolition of private ownership of firearms (which seems to be the non-stop message from people who use the term "gun control").

As to "sensible gun laws" (your term), one man's sensible is another man's tyranny.

Americans have the constitution specifically because our founding fathers knew not to trust government :)

Shortly after overthrowing the lawful government (the king, at that time) by force of arms, our government made it a crime to overthrow the lawful government, by force of arms.


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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2447 on: March 06, 2017, 07:29:44 AM »
I'm also OK with gun control, because I grew up in a country with sensible gun laws.  Maybe more people in the US need this exposure to allay the palpable fear that the words "gun control" elicit.

Perhaps if people who constantly use the term "gun control" would be honest and say "people control", "gun control" would not be equated with the abolition of private ownership of firearms (which seems to be the non-stop message from people who use the term "gun control").

As to "sensible gun laws" (your term), one man's sensible is another man's tyranny.

Americans have the constitution specifically because our founding fathers knew not to trust government :)

Shortly after overthrowing the lawful government (the king, at that time) by force of arms, our government made it a crime to overthrow the lawful government, by force of arms.
I would argue there is a middle ground of 'sensible' gun control laws. We already have most of them: violent felons can't possess guns, mentally unhealthy persons can't possess guns, kids can't own guns, businesses and governmental buildings and private residences can largely ban guns from their premise if they wish, background check systems exist to vet owners, destructive devices that explode are more tightly monitored, people can't just go waving guns around and shooting into the air (despite what Joe Biden would wish) etc.  The most sensible changes are really relatively small - increase the number of people that get background checked and increase the number of people who have safety training with firearms.  The fine points of these are sources of contentious debates (should mentally incompetent people be entered into a database? Should all people be exposed to firearm safety training? Should background checks be mandated to be performed only by licensed gun dealers?) but overall I think there is a lot of agreement in the direction things could go, if not exactly the path to get there.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2448 on: March 06, 2017, 01:03:27 PM »
I thought this was an interesting article.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/boston-the-second-amendment-right-to-be-afraid-the-night-i-came-face-to-face-with-my-gun-toting-neighbour

By the way, those who talk about shootings in Canada - we have lots of long guns, controls in place but perfectly legal.  It is hand guns that are very strictly limited.  I know this has been said here before, but it tends to be forgotten.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2449 on: March 06, 2017, 01:13:12 PM »
I thought this was an interesting article.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/boston-the-second-amendment-right-to-be-afraid-the-night-i-came-face-to-face-with-my-gun-toting-neighbour

By the way, those who talk about shootings in Canada - we have lots of long guns, controls in place but perfectly legal.  It is hand guns that are very strictly limited.  I know this has been said here before, but it tends to be forgotten.

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(My car) is extremely quiet (ideal for sneaking up on people and killing them) and also you can drive for hours without stopping for gas after murdering people, which is very convenient. The Yakima roof rack is also perfect for transporting dead bodies without messing up the interior.
- kinda friggin' disturbing.
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