Author Topic: Firearms in the home  (Read 375773 times)

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2300 on: February 26, 2017, 03:38:54 AM »
This would not prevent anyone from giving a felon a firearm. It would allow them to enforce existing laws for when they choose to.

You don't believe that there is any chance of a deterrent effect when enforcement of the law starts to actually happen?  I'd be surprised if this deterrent didn't prevent many instances of someone giving a felon a firearm.
Meh. It's illegal now, doesnt deter many people. Any deterrent would be a bonus.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

jamesvt

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2301 on: February 26, 2017, 07:18:51 AM »
Registration leads to confiscation. No thanks.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8232
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2302 on: February 26, 2017, 09:27:55 AM »
This would not prevent anyone from giving a felon a firearm. It would allow them to enforce existing laws for when they choose to.

You don't believe that there is any chance of a deterrent effect when enforcement of the law starts to actually happen?  I'd be surprised if this deterrent didn't prevent many instances of someone giving a felon a firearm.
Meh. It's illegal now, doesnt deter many people. Any deterrent would be a bonus.

Murder is illegal.  The laws regarding murder to nothing to physically prevent the act of murder . . . but the threat of punitive action and the fact that we enforce murder laws pretty well acts as a reasonable deterrent to murder in our society.  I suspect that if murder were illegal, but unenforceable we would see higher instances of it.

I agree, being illegal alone isn't a deterrent.  A law needs to be both illegal and enforceable to work to prevent people from perpetrating a particular action.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2303 on: February 26, 2017, 09:36:31 AM »
Research suggests there is a very slight deterrent effect of such laws, if any, no matter what one may suspect.

And yes, registration is a complex and expensive way of adressing the problem. There are much simpler and equally effective ways that burden the general population much less. Even Canada has backed away from their registration program; to few ill effects.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8232
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2304 on: February 26, 2017, 09:43:51 AM »
Research suggests there is a very slight deterrent effect of such laws, if any, no matter what one may suspect.

- Murder laws only address the problem after the fact (too late to help the victim).

- You assert that there is negligible deterrent effect by having such laws.

- Having any law limits individual freedom, the number and scope of laws should always be minimized to keep a free society free.

It would follow that you therefore believe that murder laws should be abolished.  Is this the case?  If not, please indicate which point supporting the conclusion is incorrect.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2305 on: February 26, 2017, 09:50:58 AM »
This is not the case.

None of the points are incorrect.  Your conclusion, however, is wildly off base. You are clealry missing important points supporting laws. Perhaps see if laws do anything beyond deterrent effect ( which is only loosely supported by research) and see if you come to another conclusion.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Drifterrider

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2306 on: February 26, 2017, 08:50:47 PM »
Do you have the statistics on that because I had heard the opposite.
More or less (see the second column on the second page): https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF.  This is based on a survey of prison inmates, who said that somewhere around 10% of the guns inmates had possessed were stolen.  They more often get it from friends/family/others, especially when they are barred from owning a gun due to previous convictions.
In an awful lot of states ( like Washington ) there is no punishment for selling a gun to someone who is a felon if you don't ask.  There's also no requirement to ask before selling a gun.  That makes laws against selling to felons effectively unenforceable.

This is obviously an area where current laws are deficient.
Person: Hey I'm selling this gun would you like to buy it?
Felon: Yes I would
Person: Are you a felon?
Felon: No
The person then unknowingly sells to a felon.

BUT, still a crime in some states.  There is federal law and state law and both parties are required to know.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4217
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2307 on: February 27, 2017, 06:20:03 AM »
Do you have the statistics on that because I had heard the opposite.
More or less (see the second column on the second page): https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF.  This is based on a survey of prison inmates, who said that somewhere around 10% of the guns inmates had possessed were stolen.  They more often get it from friends/family/others, especially when they are barred from owning a gun due to previous convictions.
In an awful lot of states ( like Washington ) there is no punishment for selling a gun to someone who is a felon if you don't ask.  There's also no requirement to ask before selling a gun.  That makes laws against selling to felons effectively unenforceable.

This is obviously an area where current laws are deficient.
Person: Hey I'm selling this gun would you like to buy it?
Felon: Yes I would
Person: Are you a felon?
Felon: No
The person then unknowingly sells to a felon.

BUT, still a crime in some states.  There is federal law and state law and both parties are required to know.
But there are no consequences for a private citizen because all they can do is ask, they cannot know.  Which means as long as they have plausible deniability in many states, they can sell to anyone.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Location: MA
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2308 on: February 27, 2017, 08:12:50 AM »
Quote
Registration leads to confiscation. No thanks.

Thanks for being open minded and flexible.....

Do you have any other solutions that might bring comfort to gun control advocates besides "Let's give guns to everyone and see how that works out?".  What about my right to NOT own a gun? 

I see a lot of people on the gun control side trying to provide solutions while the anti-gun side doesn't budge an inch.  Not really a great way to solve problems. 

Let's try an experiment.  Say you were sitting right across from someone who had a relative die to gun violence.  What would you say to them, IN PERSON, regarding gun control?  Don't just throw out an internet answer, but think about looking at their face as they describe the pain of losing a friend, husband, child to gun violence.  What would you actually say to that living breathing person in front of you? 

zolotiyeruki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2011
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2309 on: February 27, 2017, 08:56:46 AM »
Quote
Registration leads to confiscation. No thanks.

Thanks for being open minded and flexible.....

Do you have any other solutions that might bring comfort to gun control advocates besides "Let's give guns to everyone and see how that works out?".  What about my right to NOT own a gun? 

I see a lot of people on the gun control side trying to provide solutions while the anti-gun side doesn't budge an inch.  Not really a great way to solve problems.
You'll have to forgive the anti-gun-control folks for being a bit absolutist, but there are a number of well-established reasons for it:
1) Historically speaking, no compromise has ever satisfied pro-gun-control folks.  Proponents of gun control are loath to admit it when their favored laws don't actually produce a positive result.  For example, gun-control advocates continue to push for (and in some cases, pass) legislation banning "assault weapons," despite the fact that when it was tried from 1994-2004, the federal ban resulted in zero measurable impact.
2) "Registration leads to confiscation" is trite, but also true.  As they say, it isn't paranoia if they're actually out to get you.

I think you're engaging in reducto ad absurdum with the "give guns to everyone" line, so I won't bother addressing that.

The whole "doesn't budge an inch" comes from point #1 above.  Budging an inch (again, viewing historically) only encourages gun control proponents to push further, while the original problem remains unsolved.

"trying to provide solutions" doesn't actually hold water, either, given that all of the proposed "solutions"....don't really solve the problems gun-control proponents claim to be trying to address, i.e. crime.

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2310 on: February 27, 2017, 10:14:06 AM »
I'll step in this turd.
Quote
Registration leads to confiscation. No thanks.

Thanks for being open minded and flexible.....

Do you have any other solutions that might bring comfort to gun control advocates besides "Let's give guns to everyone and see how that works out?".  What about my right to NOT own a gun? 

I see a lot of people on the gun control side trying to provide solutions while the anti-gun side doesn't budge an inch.  Not really a great way to solve problems. 

Let's try an experiment.  Say you were sitting right across from someone who had a relative die to gun violence.  What would you say to them, IN PERSON, regarding gun control?  Don't just throw out an internet answer, but think about looking at their face as they describe the pain of losing a friend, husband, child to gun violence.  What would you actually say to that living breathing person in front of you? 

I'll step in this mess. Zolo address the absolutist nature of some pro 2nd amendment viewpoints. I'll leave it at that.

Here are my solutions:
-Decriminalize marijuana nationally. Have someone smarter than me figure out a way to take some of the money out of the remaining drug trade, since that money drives the violence to secure it.

-A national concealed handgun license program. Require range testing, some scenario testing. They can carry anywhere except airports, or other federal areas where security is provided already. This means schools. This means trained teachers might be carrying. will it make some people uncomfortable? Maybe. But only an idiot teacher would advertise they're carrying and that would be grounds take that person's CHL away.

-Create a system for private sales, where the seller can verify the buyer. I envision something like this renter screening system I used... it just says yay or nay based on the criteria you can legally use to select renters. Done. No information about what disqualified the prospective buyer. I'm not sure how to gather enough information to enforce compliance to this law without creating a tacit registry, but it can be done. Maybe the seller is responsible for maintaining some documentation.

That's a few examples of things I believe would have a real effect, yet not curtail anyone's right to keep and bear arms.

I don't recall saying you have to own guns. You can certainly choose not to. As long as you aren't pretentious about it or trying to take away my right to, I won't judge.

As for your attempt to shame me into supporting gun rights with an  I'd express my condolences that their loved one's life was cut short by violence (there is no effective difference between homicidal 'gun violence' and any other type of homicidal violence, imho.). I'd discuss ways to address the real root cause of said violence, if they wanted to.



golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Location: MA
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2311 on: February 27, 2017, 11:40:38 AM »
I can't make anyone feel shame.  If you approached someone in person who lost a loved one to a preventable gun related crime and you feel shame, perhaps you should think about why that would be. 

My point is that many of these theoretical arguments fall away when you confront people or are involved in someone who has faced a loss resulting from gun violence.  It's really hard to say, "Sorry, nothing we can do."  I felt that keenly when I saw Obama cry talking about Newtown. 

I like the idea of decriminalization of marijuana.  I don't know if any states that currently have high levels of gun violence have done this yet, but it would be interesting to see an effect.

I hate, hate, hate the slippery slope absolutist mentality of the NRA.  Even if certain gun laws aren't working, why does that mean you have to stop trying?  Why would you give up on attempting to implement policy that might save people's lives?  Don't ever give up.  If you have a right like gun ownership, make sure you are doing the other part of what makes individual rights work, personal and social responsibility. 

Has there been a large study proving that having concealed carry laws prevents or reduces gun violence?  I would be interested in seeing that.  My intuition tells me that it would make volatile situations more volatile, but I could be wrong and I am open to changing my mind on that one. 

I have a real, real hard time with the idea of teachers carrying. Maybe it's because I have an autistic son, but I can envision situations where a few errors could result in his injury or death.  Maybe you are not aware of the fact that a lot of special needs kids are integrated into the general school environment these days, but that put a lot of unpredictable behavior at play.  I could totally see an inexperienced teacher reacting in a totally understandable way that gets kids killed. 

jamesvt

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2312 on: February 27, 2017, 11:56:11 AM »
Quote
Registration leads to confiscation. No thanks.

Thanks for being open minded and flexible.....

Do you have any other solutions that might bring comfort to gun control advocates besides "Let's give guns to everyone and see how that works out?".  What about my right to NOT own a gun? 
Give guns to everybody? No one is forcing you to own a gun so your right to not own a gun isn't being violated.
Quote
I see a lot of people on the gun control side trying to provide solutions while the anti-gun side doesn't budge an inch.  Not really a great way to solve problems. 
Doesn't budge an inch you must be joking? http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Illustrated-Guide-To-Gun-Control.png

Quote
Let's try an experiment.  Say you were sitting right across from someone who had a relative die to gun violence.  What would you say to them, IN PERSON, regarding gun control?  Don't just throw out an internet answer, but think about looking at their face as they describe the pain of losing a friend, husband, child to gun violence.  What would you actually say to that living breathing person in front of you?

I wouldn't say anything to them about gun control if they had just lost someone.

My best friend's cousin was murdered by someone with a gun. He now own's more guns than me. The person that murdered his cousin had no criminal or mental health record, legally owned the gun, so stricter laws wouldn't have stopped him.

My best friend was never really anti-gun but didn't want to own a shoot any for a long time. Over time talking to him about guns and gun laws I finally warmed him up to going to the range with me and the rest is history.

I don't blame the actions of people on inanimate objects.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 12:52:31 PM by jamesvt »

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2313 on: February 27, 2017, 12:03:29 PM »
I can't make anyone feel shame.  If you approached someone in person who lost a loved one to a preventable gun related crime and you feel shame, perhaps you should think about why that would be. 

My point is that many of these theoretical arguments fall away when you confront people or are involved in someone who has faced a loss resulting from gun violence.  It's really hard to say, "Sorry, nothing we can do."  I felt that keenly when I saw Obama cry talking about Newtown. 

I like the idea of decriminalization of marijuana.  I don't know if any states that currently have high levels of gun violence have done this yet, but it would be interesting to see an effect.

I hate, hate, hate the slippery slope absolutist mentality of the NRA.  Even if certain gun laws aren't working, why does that mean you have to stop trying?  Why would you give up on attempting to implement policy that might save people's lives?  Don't ever give up.  If you have a right like gun ownership, make sure you are doing the other part of what makes individual rights work, personal and social responsibility. 

Has there been a large study proving that having concealed carry laws prevents or reduces gun violence?  I would be interested in seeing that.  My intuition tells me that it would make volatile situations more volatile, but I could be wrong and I am open to changing my mind on that one. 

I have a real, real hard time with the idea of teachers carrying. Maybe it's because I have an autistic son, but I can envision situations where a few errors could result in his injury or death.  Maybe you are not aware of the fact that a lot of special needs kids are integrated into the general school environment these days, but that put a lot of unpredictable behavior at play.  I could totally see an inexperienced teacher reacting in a totally understandable way that gets kids killed.

I don't feel shame, but that seemed to be what you were trying to accomplish. Non the less, I wouldn't say "sorry, nothing we can do." There are things we can do, that don't involve curtailing the rights of law abiding citizens from being armed.

Again, the absolutist mentality is in response to demonstrated incrementalism on the part of gun control advocates. This is documented and discussed earlier in the thread. The NRA is trying to stay off the slippery slope, if anything.

Perhaps teachers need another level of training before carrying on the job. I'm OK with that. I certainly wouldn't put one in the hand of a teacher who wasn't willing to get that extra level of training. Ideally, no kid would even know who was carrying.

Anyway, there have been numerous comparison of the numbers. Each side picks apart methodology but the results vary from "no effect" to "10% lower crime rate in CCW heavy states."

zolotiyeruki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2011
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2314 on: February 27, 2017, 12:36:29 PM »
I hate, hate, hate the slippery slope absolutist mentality of the NRA.   why does that mean you have to stop trying?  Why would you give up on attempting to implement policy that might save people's lives?  Don't ever give up.  If you have a right like gun ownership, make sure you are doing the other part of what makes individual rights work, personal and social responsibility.
Let me address this point by point:
I hate, hate, hate the slippery slope absolutist mentality of the NRA.  Usually "slippery slope" arguments are invalid.  But in this case, it has a very solid foundation in both history and in the publicly stated intent of gun control advocates.  Regardless of your own feelings about what types of changes would help the situation, you must recognize that this stance has been taken not out of preference, but out of necessity.  When your opponents are publicly stating their intent to completely strip you of a particular right, and that any measure they take will be a step in that direction, absolutism is no longer irrational.

Even if certain gun laws aren't working, why does that mean you have to stop trying?There's an inherent problem with this question, because it assumes that guns are the root cause of the problem, and that there is some sort of gun-control law that will help, when in reality guns are simply a tool being used in the context of a larger problem.  I think a better question would be "what is driving people to join gangs and commit violent crime?" since that represents the vast majority of gun crime;

Why would you give up on attempting to implement policy that might save people's lives?  There are two problems with this: 1) there's an assumption that "gun-control laws = lives saved", and 2) passing laws because they might solve a problem is a poor approach to government.

make sure you are doing the other part of what makes individual rights work, personal and social responsibility  I'm not sure what the specific concern is here.  Gun owners are already legally responsible for how they use their guns.  Can you provide a bit more detail on what you're getting at here?
Quote
Has there been a large study proving that having concealed carry laws prevents or reduces gun violence?  I would be interested in seeing that.  My intuition tells me that it would make volatile situations more volatile, but I could be wrong and I am open to changing my mind on that one.

I have a real, real hard time with the idea of teachers carrying. Maybe it's because I have an autistic son, but I can envision situations where a few errors could result in his injury or death.  Maybe you are not aware of the fact that a lot of special needs kids are integrated into the general school environment these days, but that put a lot of unpredictable behavior at play.  I could totally see an inexperienced teacher reacting in a totally understandable way that gets kids killed.
To be honest, the effect of concealed carry laws on crime rates is this:  it's murky.  It *has* been studied extensively, and the results range from "it reduces murder significantly" to "there's little causal link between concealed carry and reduced murder rates."  There's essentially zero research that claims to show that concealed carry is linked to increased gun violence.  As you consider this, keep in mind again that 1) most murders are gang-related, and such people generally don't bother with whether concealed carry is allowed in their location, and 2) most studies look at the link between gun laws and murder, and not at other violent crime, especially robbery, so it's not exactly apples-to-apples.

I understand the instinctive reaction against teachers carrying.  I, too, have an autistic son, and we're intimately aware of the challenges that arise in a school setting with special needs students.  It's easy to imagine scenarios where things could go wrong.  But those scenarios are not insurmountable.

zolotiyeruki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2011
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2315 on: February 27, 2017, 12:37:58 PM »
Quote
Doesn't budge an inch you must be joking? https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=78&v=wHf2ejIZ44g
I'm not sure you linked what you wanted to link.

jamesvt

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2316 on: February 27, 2017, 12:53:14 PM »
Quote
Doesn't budge an inch you must be joking? https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=78&v=wHf2ejIZ44g
I'm not sure you linked what you wanted to link.
Thanks for the catch lol. My post is updated with the correct link.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Location: MA
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2317 on: February 27, 2017, 01:28:19 PM »
Quote
Regardless of your own feelings about what types of changes would help the situation, you must recognize that this stance has been taken not out of preference, but out of necessity.  When your opponents are publicly stating their intent to completely strip you of a particular right, and that any measure they take will be a step in that direction, absolutism is no longer irrational.

I don't recognize that.  Sure, there are a few extremists that want to repeal the second amendment, but that doesn't cover the vast majority of gun control advocates.    You are all upset that I have mentioned that " people want everyone to carry a gun", but I have heard that line of thinking on the extreme margins of the pro gun people.  Perhaps you would do the gun control people the courtesy of not judging the majority by the most extreme position, and I will do the same for pro gun people. 

jamesvt

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2318 on: February 27, 2017, 01:45:23 PM »
Quote
Regardless of your own feelings about what types of changes would help the situation, you must recognize that this stance has been taken not out of preference, but out of necessity.  When your opponents are publicly stating their intent to completely strip you of a particular right, and that any measure they take will be a step in that direction, absolutism is no longer irrational.

I don't recognize that.  Sure, there are a few extremists that want to repeal the second amendment, but that doesn't cover the vast majority of gun control advocates.    You are all upset that I have mentioned that " people want everyone to carry a gun", but I have heard that line of thinking on the extreme margins of the pro gun people.  Perhaps you would do the gun control people the courtesy of not judging the majority by the most extreme position, and I will do the same for pro gun people.
What what do you want to be done? Also what are some good gun laws and bad ones already in existence? Please be specific, many people that advocate for more gun laws don't even know existing ones. Without having to look it up do you know the process of buying or owning a gun in Massachusetts?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 01:46:55 PM by jamesvt »

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Location: MA
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2319 on: February 27, 2017, 01:59:47 PM »
Without looking it up, not exactly.  But I have a friend who recently got a gun licence and I believe he had to take some classes and a test.  He didn't consider it onerous. 

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable. 

Malum Prohibitum

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 656
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2320 on: February 27, 2017, 02:04:16 PM »
Just need a time machine. Japan has had a near prohibition on private firearm ownership since the 1600's. Even in modern times Japan and the US are very different. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of Americans that would rather die then give up their guns.
  Well, there are hundreds of thousands or millions of Americans who say that on the internet.  Whether they would really rather die than give up their guns I highly doubt.  Look what happened in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina when the authorities illegally started seizing firearms.  Not one single person even attempted to resist, much less was willing to die.

They meekly handed them over.

So much for the "from my cold, dead hands" rhetoric.  It sounds great, but it means nothing without the spine to back it up.

Malum Prohibitum

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 656
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2321 on: February 27, 2017, 02:13:29 PM »
Without looking it up, not exactly.  But I have a friend who recently got a gun licence and I believe he had to take some classes and a test.  He didn't consider it onerous. 

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable.
  And yet the laws are not tied to gun deaths at all.  Gun deaths are tied to demographics and subculture.  Even among different subcultures in the US, suicide rates with firearms vary drastically.  So do murders with guns.  Worldwide the differences are even larger, and they are not tied to the laws internationally.

The Brady Campaign people put out a grading system that grades states on the "safety" of their gun laws.  An A is a safe state, and an F is an unsafe state.  One year recently a state with an F on their rating system (based on state laws) had NO GUN MURDERS.

They did not see the irony in their statement on the report that "the states with the strongest gun laws also have the lowest gun death rates."

Eugene Volokh used their numbers to set forth a chart in which you can see that there is no real correlation between state laws and homicide rates (Volokh concludes that stronger gun laws actually equal more homicides, but admits that the correlation is very small).  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/?utm_term=.cabeee27db02
You can read the article if you want, but click on it to quickly view the charts even if you do not want to read the entire thing.

jamesvt

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2322 on: February 27, 2017, 02:22:00 PM »
Without looking it up, not exactly.  But I have a friend who recently got a gun licence and I believe he had to take some classes and a test.  He didn't consider it onerous. 

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable.
Like I said in a previous post gun laws aren't the issue. You have states with strict guns laws that have low violent crime rates and ones with high violent crime rates. You also have states with lax gun laws with low violent crime rates and ones with high violent crime rates. Poverty and drug laws are the issues.

Just need a time machine. Japan has had a near prohibition on private firearm ownership since the 1600's. Even in modern times Japan and the US are very different. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of Americans that would rather die then give up their guns.
  Well, there are hundreds of thousands or millions of Americans who say that on the internet.  Whether they would really rather die than give up their guns I highly doubt.  Look what happened in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina when the authorities illegally started seizing firearms.  Not one single person even attempted to resist, much less was willing to die.

They meekly handed them over.

So much for the "from my cold, dead hands" rhetoric.  It sounds great, but it means nothing without the spine to back it up.
I know what people say online vs what they do in real life can be different, but there are people out there that rather die than give up there guns. There were people that resisted in NO. Only about 1000 firearms where confiscated so it seems like a lot of people lied saying they didn't own and firearms. Another reason against firearm registration. 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 02:24:14 PM by jamesvt »

cheapass

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2323 on: February 27, 2017, 05:48:43 PM »
Without looking it up, not exactly.  But I have a friend who recently got a gun licence and I believe he had to take some classes and a test.  He didn't consider it onerous. 

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable.
The problem with this approach is that whenever a proposed gun control law comes up, all of the people who know nothing about firearms jump on it and say WE'VE GOTTA DO SOMETHING, even if that "something" was just pulled out of somebody's ass at random and has no logic behind why it would reduce gun violence.

Can you tell me what makes an "assault weapon" deadlier than any other rifle?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


cheapass

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2324 on: February 27, 2017, 05:54:40 PM »
Without looking it up, not exactly.  But I have a friend who recently got a gun licence and I believe he had to take some classes and a test.  He didn't consider it onerous. 

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable.
Also, for the sake of argument, let's say an assault weapon ban gets passed. A few months later there's a sensationalized mass shooting with a non-assault weapon. What happens then? 

Slippery slope

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8232
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2325 on: February 27, 2017, 06:29:18 PM »
Also, for the sake of argument, let's say an assault weapon ban gets passed. A few months later there's a sensationalized mass shooting with a non-assault weapon. What happens then? 

Gun advocates keep pretending that there's nothing that can be done to prevent mass shootings?

cheapass

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2326 on: February 27, 2017, 06:31:32 PM »
Also, for the sake of argument, let's say an assault weapon ban gets passed. A few months later there's a sensationalized mass shooting with a non-assault weapon. What happens then? 

Gun advocates keep pretending that there's nothing that can be done to prevent mass shootings?
I don't believe there is, other than rounding up every gun in the country and destroying them, along with every machine shop capable of producing a firearm.

I guess alternatively we could just make mass shootings illegal?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2327 on: February 27, 2017, 06:55:20 PM »
Thankfully good countries like Canada have no recent mass shootings with their strict gun laws. Oh, wait a minute...
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2328 on: February 27, 2017, 07:17:02 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/african-american-gun-club-trump/index.html

An article on people buying guns in reaction to the Trump election. 
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Abe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 741
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2329 on: February 27, 2017, 07:58:09 PM »
I'm in that group - have always felt we have the right to bear arms but never felt threatened enough to bother. Definitely going to get trained and armed up now. Not because of Trump but because of all the nutbags shouting their mouths off about ethno-states and other such bullshit. Likelihood they'll do anything other than feel smugly superior is low, but not zero.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2330 on: February 27, 2017, 08:03:52 PM »
I'm in that group - have always felt we have the right to bear arms but never felt threatened enough to bother. Definitely going to get trained and armed up now. Not because of Trump but because of all the nutbags shouting their mouths off about ethno-states and other such bullshit. Likelihood they'll do anything other than feel smugly superior is low, but not zero.
Welcome to the gun nut side! :)

Please keep us updated through your journey.  Your focus on training and safety will serve you well.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Abe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 741
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2331 on: February 27, 2017, 08:19:42 PM »
I'm in that group - have always felt we have the right to bear arms but never felt threatened enough to bother. Definitely going to get trained and armed up now. Not because of Trump but because of all the nutbags shouting their mouths off about ethno-states and other such bullshit. Likelihood they'll do anything other than feel smugly superior is low, but not zero.
Welcome to the gun nut side! :)

Please keep us updated through your journey.  Your focus on training and safety will serve you well.

Appreciate it. I've trained with swords and other implements but not much with guns. My family has a >500 year record of service as soldiers, I'm the first male adult to not have served in that capacity. Point is not to brag but emphasize that safety with weapons (sword or gun) is incredibly important in my culture.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2332 on: February 27, 2017, 08:27:40 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/african-american-gun-club-trump/index.html

An article on people buying guns in reaction to the Trump election.

Yeah, how can you blame African-Americans for wanting to arm themselves against Trump supporters?
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1337
  • Location: MA
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2333 on: February 28, 2017, 08:15:53 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns? 

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2334 on: February 28, 2017, 08:22:09 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?

I actually think it's a great thing, democrats arming themselves. Maybe they'll see the value in having an effective means of resisting a truly tyrannical government. Not holding my breath.

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3542
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2335 on: February 28, 2017, 08:40:22 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?

You're writing as if that hasn't happened.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/texas-news/armed-protesters-added-to-confusion-in-dallas-attack/269891077

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2336 on: February 28, 2017, 08:49:17 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?

You're writing as if that hasn't happened.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/texas-news/armed-protesters-added-to-confusion-in-dallas-attack/269891077

Why didn't they just wear shirts that said "Good guy"? Then the police would have known who they were. Problem solved!
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2337 on: February 28, 2017, 09:28:48 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?
Think of the Anarchy! Armed protestors walking around freely!

But seriously golden, where in this thread has anyone said liberals should not have guns? The only people who are afraid of people with guns seem to be the gun control enthusiasts. Everyone else is more than supportive of people who choose to buy guns, no matter their political views.  The media will play up the crazies on both sides, but in this thread I have not seen it. Do you have quotes from this thread to show what you are referring to?
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2338 on: February 28, 2017, 09:59:05 AM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?

I actually think it's a great thing, democrats arming themselves. Maybe they'll see the value in having an effective means of resisting a truly tyrannical government. Not holding my breath.
How do they think they are going to fight off the Trump government with their pea shooters? Typical red dawn stuff.

African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

zolotiyeruki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2011
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2339 on: February 28, 2017, 12:27:08 PM »
Quote
I don't recognize that.  Sure, there are a few extremists that want to repeal the second amendment, but that doesn't cover the vast majority of gun control advocates.    You are all upset that I have mentioned that " people want everyone to carry a gun", but I have heard that line of thinking on the extreme margins of the pro gun people.  Perhaps you would do the gun control people the courtesy of not judging the majority by the most extreme position, and I will do the same for pro gun people.
Thanks for being open minded and flexible..... :P  I kid, I kid. 

Seriously, though, look at New York state with the SAFE Act.  Confiscation right there.  Look at Chicago, where you couldn't even own a handgun until recently.  Look at Washington DC.  That's not just a few extremists, sorry.  Sure, there are lots of "moderates," but when you look at the people actually writing the laws, there are plenty of politicians willing to go that far.

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable.
Before we keep on debating this, I think we need to clarify a bit--are we discussing murder, or suicide?  While guns are a tool commonly used in both, the two problems have very different causes, and I believe they need to be addressed separately.

I get your desire to reduce gun violence, and I think we're all in favor of that.  Unfortunately, the desire to "do something, anything!" has been the motivation behind many, many bad laws, especially anti-gun laws.  If you have a specific proposal that you think would help, then by all means let's discuss it and explore the positives and negatives.

zolotiyeruki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2011
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2340 on: February 28, 2017, 12:30:29 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2341 on: February 28, 2017, 12:35:17 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1162
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2342 on: February 28, 2017, 12:45:13 PM »
To repeat myself, end the drug war, legalize most drugs, and kill the for-profit prison system (we almost did it, sigh...). Big reduction in gun murders pretty likely to result from the above. Far less overcrowding in prisons, too, many millions/billions of dollars in wasted federal spending saved. Many billions of dollars in tax revenue generated. Little downside as far as I'm concerned despite baseless claims to the contrary. We just have to overcome the hysterical Jeff Sessions type of people.

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2343 on: February 28, 2017, 01:12:11 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims. I'd go on to add that arming yourself and getting training to responsibly protect yourself against a threat from any source is a commendable and I would encourage it.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2262
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2344 on: February 28, 2017, 02:21:11 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims.

Not quite.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4217
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2345 on: February 28, 2017, 02:47:33 PM »
Quote
I don't recognize that.  Sure, there are a few extremists that want to repeal the second amendment, but that doesn't cover the vast majority of gun control advocates.    You are all upset that I have mentioned that " people want everyone to carry a gun", but I have heard that line of thinking on the extreme margins of the pro gun people.  Perhaps you would do the gun control people the courtesy of not judging the majority by the most extreme position, and I will do the same for pro gun people.
Thanks for being open minded and flexible..... :P  I kid, I kid. 

Seriously, though, look at New York state with the SAFE Act.  Confiscation right there.  Look at Chicago, where you couldn't even own a handgun until recently.  Look at Washington DC.  That's not just a few extremists, sorry.  Sure, there are lots of "moderates," but when you look at the people actually writing the laws, there are plenty of politicians willing to go that far.

I don't know exactly what I want to be done, but I do know that I hope (and I stress that word) that everyone here wants what is best to protect everyone as best as we can.  We aren't doing good enough as a society to address this problem.  I am not pretending I know the answers to a complex situation, but I do know that some societies seem to have figured out things that work for them to reduce gun violence, and I believe we can get there too.  Our solutions might be different than theirs, but we do know that it is possible to get that number much lower.  I refuse to believe that the current amount of gun deaths are acceptable.
Before we keep on debating this, I think we need to clarify a bit--are we discussing murder, or suicide?  While guns are a tool commonly used in both, the two problems have very different causes, and I believe they need to be addressed separately.

I get your desire to reduce gun violence, and I think we're all in favor of that.  Unfortunately, the desire to "do something, anything!" has been the motivation behind many, many bad laws, especially anti-gun laws.  If you have a specific proposal that you think would help, then by all means let's discuss it and explore the positives and negatives.
I live in NYS, can you explain to me how the safe act is confiscation?

MishMash

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2346 on: February 28, 2017, 02:51:01 PM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?
Think of the Anarchy! Armed protestors walking around freely!

But seriously golden, where in this thread has anyone said liberals should not have guns? The only people who are afraid of people with guns seem to be the gun control enthusiasts. Everyone else is more than supportive of people who choose to buy guns, no matter their political views.  The media will play up the crazies on both sides, but in this thread I have not seen it. Do you have quotes from this thread to show what you are referring to?

DH is military and we are both wealthy, liberal, Democrats with an epic CRAP ton of guns.  Seems like it should be an oxymoron, but it's not, we do exist.  You kind of have to walk a delicate line, like we do think there should be a few common sense gun laws out there (like I shouldn't really be able to trade a kayak for 2k rounds of ammo and 2 weapons, legally, in my driveway, with no checks needed, like I have in the past.  And yes, I TOTALLY got the better end of that deal) but talking to my coworker who thinks all weapons with clips should be banned 100% (seriously) makes me want to throat punch his stupidity. 

I sometimes feel like we are the rare unicorn in the world, Liberal in most ways, democrats, but loving our weapons.

zolotiyeruki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2011
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2347 on: February 28, 2017, 03:29:06 PM »
I live in NYS, can you explain to me how the safe act is confiscation?
It's not a blanket confiscation, but it's happening: http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Gun-confiscation-prompts-lawsuit-10818702.php

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2348 on: February 28, 2017, 04:52:05 PM »
African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man.
Let's be careful not to conflate correlation with causation here.  The likelihood has little to do with color, and more to do with gang affiliation.

It's proximity. White people are more likely to be victimized by other white people, as well. God, that old "black on black crime" horse gets tiresome.

Of course it's proximity.

All he was trying to say is black people arming themselves against white trump supporters is about as foolish as, for example, white trump supporters arming themselves against muslims.

Not quite.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

From your source:

"The vast majority of homicide victims are killed by people of their own race." "...However, the share of black-on-black homicides as a proportion of black people killed actually fell by just under 1 percentage point, to 89.3 percent."   

So, I don't understand what I got wrong. The trend seems to show white people as a slightly increasing, but relatively small, source of violence for black people.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if you find the portion of my statement about it being foolish for white people to arm themselves specifically against Muslim violence to be objectionable, then it would be hard to reconcile that with your unstated but implied support of black people arming themselves against white people.

I'd like to compare Metric Mouse's statement to a statement in the article you linked:

MM:
"African Americans are statistically several times more likely to be victimized by  African Americans than by white Trump supporters. Arming themselves for the wrong boogie man."
 
US News:
"The vast majority of homicide victims are killed by people of their own race. "

Sort of seems like MM overstated the risk black people face from Trump supporters.

If your point is that there was a slight increase in the proportion of black victims of white violence, then, well, yeah.. trends change, and racial tensions are growing for whatever reason, and that's manifesting itself as a marginal change in the break down of what races are doing violence to others.

I don't think we're in disagreement about the facts, so maybe it's interpretation?

I look at this data and conclude that it's foolish for a black person to arm themselves specifically to ward off the threat of white people. Exactly as I look other data and think it's foolish to for a white person to arm themselves specifically to ward off the threat of black or Muslim people. I do, however, think it's a great idea for all people to arm themselves, train themselves, and throw off the victim mentality to increase their self sufficiency and ability to protect themselves, from any source of violence they encounter.

If you disagree with my statement, what am I to conclude? Semi-condescending quips like 'not quite' don't really help anything.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 04:59:16 PM by ncornilsen »

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3542
Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #2349 on: February 28, 2017, 08:02:04 PM »
Yeah, like I said upthread, and everything I have seen in this thread confirms it, nothing will move gun advocates except huge numbers if liberals en mass becoming gun nuts, because I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of gun advocates (not all of them) hate and fear liberals more than they love their guns.  If protesters scare them, what happens when people show up to protests and town halls with guns?
Think of the Anarchy! Armed protestors walking around freely!

But seriously golden, where in this thread has anyone said liberals should not have guns? The only people who are afraid of people with guns seem to be the gun control enthusiasts. Everyone else is more than supportive of people who choose to buy guns, no matter their political views.  The media will play up the crazies on both sides, but in this thread I have not seen it. Do you have quotes from this thread to show what you are referring to?

DH is military and we are both wealthy, liberal, Democrats with an epic CRAP ton of guns.  Seems like it should be an oxymoron, but it's not, we do exist.  You kind of have to walk a delicate line, like we do think there should be a few common sense gun laws out there (like I shouldn't really be able to trade a kayak for 2k rounds of ammo and 2 weapons, legally, in my driveway, with no checks needed, like I have in the past.  And yes, I TOTALLY got the better end of that deal) but talking to my coworker who thinks all weapons with clips should be banned 100% (seriously) makes me want to throat punch his stupidity. 

I sometimes feel like we are the rare unicorn in the world, Liberal in most ways, democrats, but loving our weapons.
I'm a rare unicorn too apparently - liberal, voted Democrat, multiple gun owner. I know tones of people just like me so I think we aren't as rare as Golden1 thinks we are.

Add me to the 'generally identifies as liberal except for guns' unicorn club.