Author Topic: Firearms in the home  (Read 358599 times)

winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1500 on: July 08, 2016, 12:14:36 PM »
Another day I wake up to the new of another mass shooting in the USA.  This one was 11 police shot.  5 dead, 6 if you include one of the gun men. 

I am not sure what the answer is, but the senseless killing of another 6 people, not to mention the two that were shot by police, that started this.  I don't know what gun laws need to change.  I do know that it is the gun culture in the US that seems to be causing this.  Everyone has access to a gun, and many choose to use them.

I know that this is not going to be a popular opinion amongst some.  I am sure that I will get "the only way to stop a mass shooting is a good guy with a gun" except on Wednesday a person was shot in front of his family.  He had a legal permit to concealed carry.   That did not prevent that tragedy.  Last night there were uniformed armed, trained officers.  Many of them keeping the peace at a rally.  They could not stop the event before the shooter took their own life, guns do not stop violence, they condone it.

The gun culture, huh?

Not the disgusting thug culture in this country.

Not the outrageous police culture in this country.

Not the sad culture of milquetoast, indifferent white people that assume cops are always in the right.

Not the culture of (bi-directional) racism.

None of those things are contributing factors. Just "gun culture," right?

I think I am beginning to understand you Canadians better. You seem so invested in, and so flabbergasted by this stuff. It's because you think the US and Canada are basically the same, expect America has less strict gun laws. You are sorely mistaken.

And there it is.

I am not invested in this because I am Canadian.  I an invested because I am human.  Innocent people are losing their lives.  I am invested because there is a culture of bigotry, racism and hate that seems to keep showing its face. 

I honestly don't care where you are from.  This combined culture is killing innocent people.  Not even a month ago, 49 people were killed in a night club.  Why? because they were different.

There has been hatred passed as law in the "bathroom bills"  There has been a KKK recruitment program based on stopping transgender people.  Trans people of colour are being murdered at an alarming rate. Not to mention the seeming murder of black people for no other reason then they are black.   This all needs to stop. 

So, you are right, it is not "gun culture" that is causing this.  It is a racist, bigoted, hate filled culture causing this.  Guns just make it really easy to cause mass damage.  I am wanting there to be some protections in place to not allow guns into the hands of those who will do evil. 

Guns are a useful tool.  I lived in a rural area for many years.  We used guns to hunt, trap, protect our animals from wild life, and even harvest the animals we had raised.     

Love and kindness is all that is going to "fix" this.

No doubt your intentions are good. But again, you fundamentally misunderstand American culture. Pushing the gun control agenda much further will result in even MORE killing and bloodshed, more hate. So much more. The key to this is LEAVING EACH OTHER THE HELL ALONE, and this applies equally to bathroom bills and gun control bills.

What I am urging is not gun control as much as a conversation.  Both sides of this argument need to work together for the betterment of a culture as a whole.  Gun control may not be the answer, from the reading I have done both here and online.  Better education is. 

Better education will also help erase the bigotry that exists as well.  When people learn, there biases can and will soften.

I am all for education. However, the proposition that education makes people treat each other better is one I do not believe to be true. The most dangerous organizers among Islamic terrorist groups are highly educated, as well as many suicide bombers, etc. Getting a degree in a Social Justice - type major does not make people more tolerant. It does not soften biases, it hardens biases.

I agree a conversation needs to happen. But those in a position to start such a conversation are seemingly not willing or able to initiate a productive one. BLM? Only cares about black people. Obama? Blame the guns. Hillary, Trump? Ha!

At the heart of this (by this I mean unjustified police shootings) is America's law enforcement culture. The attitude that cops have towards the people they supposedly protect and serve. The militarization of police and their willingness to kill people for stupid/no reasons. ALL people, not just people of a particular race.

Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

This is a police vs. everyone issue.

As long as the conversation is framed as a white vs. black issue, no progress will be made. There are more white people than black people, simple as that.

If it is framed as a police vs. all people issue (as it should be), progress WILL be made. There are more people than police, simple as that.

The premise of your argument, i.e. "This is a police vs. everyone issue" is just as flawed as saying all gun owners are criminals.

How so?

The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

Yaeger

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1501 on: July 08, 2016, 12:29:28 PM »
The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

Yes. Let's talk about realism here for a second. With the funding available for talent recruitment, training, equipping, and operating our police forces (varies by state, city, country, etc) what's your risk tolerance for unacceptable behavior?

It's going to happen, accept that. The question we have to give is, what level of trade-offs as a society do we accept between police funding, quality control, and incidents? Or from a more pessimistic viewpoint, how many innocent deaths, racist actions, biased enforcements are acceptable? You can be indignant all you want, but it's not going to help unless you come up with how many of those incidents are acceptable and you build your police force around that target goal. In most cases, I'm assuming, that goal is determined by the level of funding available.

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1502 on: July 08, 2016, 12:30:50 PM »
How so?

The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

The way gun owners (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Gun owner training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

How about that version?

You can take a small subset of a population and extrapolate into great generalizations and go on and on about how "they need to change as a whole," but you are still generalizing. There are hundreds of thousands of good officers in this country - you just never hear about them because nobody really gives a shit. Bad news is what sells.

GuitarStv

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1503 on: July 08, 2016, 12:37:45 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1504 on: July 08, 2016, 12:39:19 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

Blacks commit more property and violent crime. It would make sense they have more interactions with police.
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winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1505 on: July 08, 2016, 12:42:37 PM »
The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

Yes. Let's talk about realism here for a second. With the funding available for talent recruitment, training, equipping, and operating our police forces (varies by state, city, country, etc) what's your risk tolerance for unacceptable behavior?

It's going to happen, accept that. The question we have to give is, what level of trade-offs as a society do we accept between police funding, quality control, and incidents? Or from a more pessimistic viewpoint, how many innocent deaths, racist actions, biased enforcements are acceptable? You can be indignant all you want, but it's not going to help unless you come up with how many of those incidents are acceptable and you build your police force around that target goal. In most cases, I'm assuming, that goal is determined by the level of funding available.

Smaller police forces with way better training and professionalism + far fewer laws to enforce = success.

winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1506 on: July 08, 2016, 12:43:54 PM »
How so?

The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

The way gun owners (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Gun owner training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

How about that version?

You can take a small subset of a population and extrapolate into great generalizations and go on and on about how "they need to change as a whole," but you are still generalizing. There are hundreds of thousands of good officers in this country - you just never hear about them because nobody really gives a shit. Bad news is what sells.

Police are public servants (supposedly). The people have a right to hold them to whatever standards they deem acceptable. Right now we hold them to standards lower than what we want. Simple.


winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1507 on: July 08, 2016, 12:45:38 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

Blacks commit more property and violent crime. It would make sense they have more interactions with police.

Truth.


Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1508 on: July 08, 2016, 12:45:43 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

While there have been a few fatal encounters of black folks with cops that have been used as case studies of victimization (Brown and Martin) that don't match the profile --- anyone with some critical thinking capability can see there is a serious policing issue out there.

Really - the poor guy in MN says - hey, I have a gun in the car (while his hands are up) then the cops ask him to show ID and registration and then promptly kill him while he complies with an order.  Way, way too trigger happy.  Your chances of 1) getting pulled over by a cop for no reason or a minor reason, 2) your chances of getting hurt in an unprovoked altercation, or 3) going to jail for a minor infraction,  are all much higher if you are a minority than if you are white.    Lots of statistics to show that.

Something has to change here -- people are getting tired of the BS.

winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1509 on: July 08, 2016, 12:47:47 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

While there have been a few fatal encounters of black folks with cops that have been used as case studies of victimization (Brown and Martin) that don't match the profile --- anyone with some critical thinking capability can see there is a serious policing issue out there.

Really - the poor guy in MN says - hey, I have a gun in the car (while his hands are up) then the cops ask him to show ID and registration and then promptly kill him while he complies with an order.  Way, way too trigger happy.  Your chances of 1) getting pulled over by a cop for no reason or a minor reason, 2) your chances of getting hurt in an unprovoked altercation, or 3) going to jail for a minor infraction,  are all much higher if you are a minority than if you are white.    Lots of statistics to show that.

Something has to change here -- people are getting tired of the BS.

I agree that something has to change; police attitude towards ALL people, including blacks.

GuitarStv

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1510 on: July 08, 2016, 12:49:01 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

Blacks commit more property and violent crime. It would make sense they have more interactions with police.

I don't think you can justify that statement.

Black people are convicted of more property and violent crime.

If a black person and white person both commit a crime, the black person is 3.6 times more likely to be arrested (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/26/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-blacks-more-likely-be-arreste/).  When arrested, black people are 30% more likely to be convicted than white people (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/30/770501/study-black-defendants-are-at-least-30-more-likely-to-be-imprisoned-than-white-defendants-for-the-same-crime/).

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1511 on: July 08, 2016, 12:49:34 PM »
How so?

The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

The way gun owners (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Gun owner training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

How about that version?

You can take a small subset of a population and extrapolate into great generalizations and go on and on about how "they need to change as a whole," but you are still generalizing. There are hundreds of thousands of good officers in this country - you just never hear about them because nobody really gives a shit. Bad news is what sells.

Police are public servants (supposedly). The people have a right to hold them to whatever standards they deem acceptable. Right now we hold them to standards lower than what we want. Simple.

The vast majority of officers conduct themselves properly. Fostering a narrative of "it's us vs them" is not productive, nor is it honest.

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1512 on: July 08, 2016, 12:50:06 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

Blacks commit more property and violent crime. It would make sense they have more interactions with police.

I don't think you can justify that statement.

Black people are convicted of more property and violent crime.

If a black person and white person both commit a crime, the black person is 3.6 times more likely to be arrested (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/26/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-blacks-more-likely-be-arreste/).  When arrested, black people are 30% more likely to be convicted than white people (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/30/770501/study-black-defendants-are-at-least-30-more-likely-to-be-imprisoned-than-white-defendants-for-the-same-crime/).

Not to mention the whole justice system is a racket...
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Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1513 on: July 08, 2016, 12:58:56 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

While there have been a few fatal encounters of black folks with cops that have been used as case studies of victimization (Brown and Martin) that don't match the profile --- anyone with some critical thinking capability can see there is a serious policing issue out there.

Really - the poor guy in MN says - hey, I have a gun in the car (while his hands are up) then the cops ask him to show ID and registration and then promptly kill him while he complies with an order.  Way, way too trigger happy.  Your chances of 1) getting pulled over by a cop for no reason or a minor reason, 2) your chances of getting hurt in an unprovoked altercation, or 3) going to jail for a minor infraction,  are all much higher if you are a minority than if you are white.    Lots of statistics to show that.

Something has to change here -- people are getting tired of the BS.

I agree that something has to change; police attitude towards ALL people, including blacks.

The difference is that if you are black your are less likely to go home - white usually you are.  It's poor policing - and folks are getting killed over it.

winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1514 on: July 08, 2016, 12:59:45 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.





winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1515 on: July 08, 2016, 01:01:34 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

While there have been a few fatal encounters of black folks with cops that have been used as case studies of victimization (Brown and Martin) that don't match the profile --- anyone with some critical thinking capability can see there is a serious policing issue out there.

Really - the poor guy in MN says - hey, I have a gun in the car (while his hands are up) then the cops ask him to show ID and registration and then promptly kill him while he complies with an order.  Way, way too trigger happy.  Your chances of 1) getting pulled over by a cop for no reason or a minor reason, 2) your chances of getting hurt in an unprovoked altercation, or 3) going to jail for a minor infraction,  are all much higher if you are a minority than if you are white.    Lots of statistics to show that.

Something has to change here -- people are getting tired of the BS.

I agree that something has to change; police attitude towards ALL people, including blacks.

The difference is that if you are black your are less likely to go home - white usually you are.  It's poor policing - and folks are getting killed over it.

Sigh. Alright, go ahead and continue to frame it in racial terms. See how many white people hop on board. See how much progress is made.

GuitarStv

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1516 on: July 08, 2016, 01:03:52 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.

Do you think that easy access to guns produces more, or fewer scenarios like that in the video?

Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1517 on: July 08, 2016, 01:08:10 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.

Do you think that easy access to guns produces more, or fewer scenarios like that in the video?

Interesting how this doesn't happen so much in say, England.  Oh yea because their "culture" is different, or because they call soccer football, or because they live near the prime meridian.  Jeesh.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1518 on: July 08, 2016, 01:11:04 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

Blacks commit more property and violent crime. It would make sense they have more interactions with police.

I don't think you can justify that statement.

Black people are convicted of more property and violent crime.

If a black person and white person both commit a crime, the black person is 3.6 times more likely to be arrested (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/26/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-blacks-more-likely-be-arreste/).  When arrested, black people are 30% more likely to be convicted than white people (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/30/770501/study-black-defendants-are-at-least-30-more-likely-to-be-imprisoned-than-white-defendants-for-the-same-crime/).

I've already posted the FBI UCR for violent crime. The stats are clear. You would be better off arguing another tract. Some demographics clearly commit certain types of crimes at rates disporportional to their population size.
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1519 on: July 08, 2016, 01:12:11 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.

Do you think that easy access to guns produces more, or fewer scenarios like that in the video?

Interesting how this doesn't happen so much in say, England.  Oh yea because their "culture" is different, or because they call soccer football, or because they live near the prime meridian.  Jeesh.

And yet in Mexico it is common... You know, because gun laws solve everything. Jeesh...
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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1520 on: July 08, 2016, 01:17:16 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

While there have been a few fatal encounters of black folks with cops that have been used as case studies of victimization (Brown and Martin) that don't match the profile --- anyone with some critical thinking capability can see there is a serious policing issue out there.

Really - the poor guy in MN says - hey, I have a gun in the car (while his hands are up) then the cops ask him to show ID and registration and then promptly kill him while he complies with an order.  Way, way too trigger happy.  Your chances of 1) getting pulled over by a cop for no reason or a minor reason, 2) your chances of getting hurt in an unprovoked altercation, or 3) going to jail for a minor infraction,  are all much higher if you are a minority than if you are white.    Lots of statistics to show that.

Something has to change here -- people are getting tired of the BS.

I agree that something has to change; police attitude towards ALL people, including blacks.

The difference is that if you are black your are less likely to go home - white usually you are.  It's poor policing - and folks are getting killed over it.

Sigh. Alright, go ahead and continue to frame it in racial terms. See how many white people hop on board. See how much progress is made.

Yea - it is framed that because IT is a racial thing.   Here's recent story of a white guy brandishing not one, but two guns at officers and somehow manages not to get shot.  Gee, must have just met a good cop.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/william-bruce-ray-arrested_us_577efceae4b0344d514eb09e?section=

Yes, you are correct that there is a crime issue in the black community where blacks commit more crimes per capita than whites.

But conversely this is true - if you are black you are more likely to be have a harsher sentence when convicted of the same crime as you are if white.

And in the recent spate of shootings of black folks - by far you are more likely to be harmed in an encounter with cops if you are black than if you are white and stopped under the same circumstances.

Yea - that is a racial thing.  Trying to bury it under the pablum of "everyone deserves respect" is either intellectually dishonest, morally vacant, and/or ignorant.

Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1521 on: July 08, 2016, 01:19:46 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.

Do you think that easy access to guns produces more, or fewer scenarios like that in the video?

Interesting how this doesn't happen so much in say, England.  Oh yea because their "culture" is different, or because they call soccer football, or because they live near the prime meridian.  Jeesh.

And yet in Mexico it is common... You know, because gun laws solve everything. Jeesh...

I hear that Iraq has a higher violence rate than the US as well --- just in case you want to use a lower threshold.  Or - -we could pull in the slums of Brazil for a comparison.  This is the gold standard you want to use??  Mexico?? Really?

winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1522 on: July 08, 2016, 01:21:25 PM »
How so?

The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

The way gun owners (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Gun owner training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

How about that version?

You can take a small subset of a population and extrapolate into great generalizations and go on and on about how "they need to change as a whole," but you are still generalizing. There are hundreds of thousands of good officers in this country - you just never hear about them because nobody really gives a shit. Bad news is what sells.

Police are public servants (supposedly). The people have a right to hold them to whatever standards they deem acceptable. Right now we hold them to standards lower than what we want. Simple.

The vast majority of officers conduct themselves properly. Fostering a narrative of "it's us vs them" is not productive, nor is it honest.

Do the majority of officers conduct themselves properly? Maybe. But that's not the point. The point is that many conduct themselves improperly.

My limited, anecdotal, personal experiences:

I have been pulled over 3 separate times in my life. Never got a ticket, all 3 separate officers were courteous and professional.

When I was 18 or 19, I was walking down the sidewalk. Two cops were walking towards me. As I passed them, I nodded and said "how's it going guys?"

They stopped me and pulled me aside and this was the exchange:

Cops: What?
Me: (Confused) How's it going?
Cop: How's it going, GUYS?
Me: Yeah man.
Cop: Man?
Me: Uhh....
Cop: The word you are looking for is "sir".
Me: Uh... (nervous laugh) sorry.
Cop: You mean, sorry SIR! That's it, turn around.

I spent the next hour handcuffed sitting on a bench. No charges, no ticket, I didn't get put into a car or taken to jail. Just sat there until they released me.

Two other cops walked by and asked what they got me for. The "arresting" cops said "Nothing, just teaching him some respect." All 4 of them laughed and went about their business.

So in my experience, I have had encounters with 3 good cops, and 4 who thought nothing of committing false imprisonment. Not a good track record with me.

GuitarStv

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1523 on: July 08, 2016, 01:23:41 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

Blacks commit more property and violent crime. It would make sense they have more interactions with police.

I don't think you can justify that statement.

Black people are convicted of more property and violent crime.

If a black person and white person both commit a crime, the black person is 3.6 times more likely to be arrested (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/26/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-blacks-more-likely-be-arreste/).  When arrested, black people are 30% more likely to be convicted than white people (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/30/770501/study-black-defendants-are-at-least-30-more-likely-to-be-imprisoned-than-white-defendants-for-the-same-crime/).

I've already posted the FBI UCR for violent crime. The stats are clear. You would be better off arguing another tract. Some demographics clearly commit certain types of crimes at rates disporportional to their population size.

The FBI UCR does not measure crime.  It measures arrests and clearance.  My previous post indicates why this isn't something you can use to measure crime rates.

winkeyman

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1524 on: July 08, 2016, 01:24:36 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

While there have been a few fatal encounters of black folks with cops that have been used as case studies of victimization (Brown and Martin) that don't match the profile --- anyone with some critical thinking capability can see there is a serious policing issue out there.

Really - the poor guy in MN says - hey, I have a gun in the car (while his hands are up) then the cops ask him to show ID and registration and then promptly kill him while he complies with an order.  Way, way too trigger happy.  Your chances of 1) getting pulled over by a cop for no reason or a minor reason, 2) your chances of getting hurt in an unprovoked altercation, or 3) going to jail for a minor infraction,  are all much higher if you are a minority than if you are white.    Lots of statistics to show that.

Something has to change here -- people are getting tired of the BS.

I agree that something has to change; police attitude towards ALL people, including blacks.

The difference is that if you are black your are less likely to go home - white usually you are.  It's poor policing - and folks are getting killed over it.

Sigh. Alright, go ahead and continue to frame it in racial terms. See how many white people hop on board. See how much progress is made.

Yea - it is framed that because IT is a racial thing.   Here's recent story of a white guy brandishing not one, but two guns at officers and somehow manages not to get shot.  Gee, must have just met a good cop.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/william-bruce-ray-arrested_us_577efceae4b0344d514eb09e?section=

Yes, you are correct that there is a crime issue in the black community where blacks commit more crimes per capita than whites.

But conversely this is true - if you are black you are more likely to be have a harsher sentence when convicted of the same crime as you are if white.

And in the recent spate of shootings of black folks - by far you are more likely to be harmed in an encounter with cops if you are black than if you are white and stopped under the same circumstances.

Yea - that is a racial thing.  Trying to bury it under the pablum of "everyone deserves respect" is either intellectually dishonest, morally vacant, and/or ignorant.

And I can link you to videos of white guys getting killed for no reason. And I can link you to videos of black men with guns who are treated well by police. What is your point?

Do these issued effect black people more than white people? Yes. But they also have a significant impact on white people. And if you frame it as a racial issue, you risk alienating the majority of the population.

WHY frame it as a racial issue, when doing so IMPEDES PROGRESS?

GuitarStv

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1525 on: July 08, 2016, 01:25:06 PM »
How so?

The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

The way gun owners (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Gun owner training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

How about that version?

You can take a small subset of a population and extrapolate into great generalizations and go on and on about how "they need to change as a whole," but you are still generalizing. There are hundreds of thousands of good officers in this country - you just never hear about them because nobody really gives a shit. Bad news is what sells.

Police are public servants (supposedly). The people have a right to hold them to whatever standards they deem acceptable. Right now we hold them to standards lower than what we want. Simple.

The vast majority of officers conduct themselves properly. Fostering a narrative of "it's us vs them" is not productive, nor is it honest.

Do the majority of officers conduct themselves properly? Maybe. But that's not the point. The point is that many conduct themselves improperly.

My limited, anecdotal, personal experiences:

I have been pulled over 3 separate times in my life. Never got a ticket, all 3 separate officers were courteous and professional.

When I was 18 or 19, I was walking down the sidewalk. Two cops were walking towards me. As I passed them, I nodded and said "how's it going guys?"

They stopped me and pulled me aside and this was the exchange:

Cops: What?
Me: (Confused) How's it going?
Cop: How's it going, GUYS?
Me: Yeah man.
Cop: Man?
Me: Uhh....
Cop: The word you are looking for is "sir".
Me: Uh... (nervous laugh) sorry.
Cop: You mean, sorry SIR! That's it, turn around.

I spent the next hour handcuffed sitting on a bench. No charges, no ticket, I didn't get put into a car or taken to jail. Just sat there until they released me.

Two other cops walked by and asked what they got me for. The "arresting" cops said "Nothing, just teaching him some respect." All 4 of them laughed and went about their business.

So in my experience, I have had encounters with 3 good cops, and 4 who thought nothing of committing false imprisonment. Not a good track record with me.

Wow.  Imagine what it would be like if you were black?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1526 on: July 08, 2016, 01:29:29 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.

Do you think that easy access to guns produces more, or fewer scenarios like that in the video?

Interesting how this doesn't happen so much in say, England.  Oh yea because their "culture" is different, or because they call soccer football, or because they live near the prime meridian.  Jeesh.

And yet in Mexico it is common... You know, because gun laws solve everything. Jeesh...

I hear that Iraq has a higher violence rate than the US as well --- just in case you want to use a lower threshold.  Or - -we could pull in the slums of Brazil for a comparison.  This is the gold standard you want to use??  Mexico?? Really?

So you would agree that there are many other factors that play into gun violence than just gun laws? Good. I would agree with that.  Seeing as the U.S. has been loosening gun laws for 2 decades, and gun violence rates have continued to drop, I think it's pretty clear that gun laws have a marginal correlation with gun violence rates, at best.  All of the data supports this conclusion as well.
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Yaeger

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1527 on: July 08, 2016, 01:30:16 PM »
Wow.  Imagine what it would be like if you were black?

Would it be different? I doubt it. We can talk about subconscious bias all day long, but it's not going to help. It's just a red herring to this argument unless you can point to specific officers and policies that promote racial discrimination. Simply saying more blacks are arrested, convicted, and shot isn't proof of racism and shouting 'it must be Racism!' doesn't prove or help improve anything.

GuitarStv

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1528 on: July 08, 2016, 01:34:43 PM »
Wow.  Imagine what it would be like if you were black?

Would it be different? I doubt it. We can talk about subconscious bias all day long, but it's not going to help. It's just a red herring to this argument unless you can point to specific officers and policies that promote racial discrimination. Simply saying more blacks are arrested, convicted, and shot isn't proof of racism and shouting 'it must be Racism!' doesn't prove or help improve anything.

Statistically, you would have been treated worse by the police you met.


But yeah, there are certainly police policies that are racist.  Even the police are known to comment on them:
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/109458270-story

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1529 on: July 08, 2016, 01:42:50 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you have no idea that I spent five years as a police officer?  I would be legitimately surprised if you're more familiar with the training I was given that I am.

I absolutely do not dispute that there are bad officers (and agencies) out there.  That needs to be fixed. However, presenting the entire problem as "us vs them" is not a healthy approach.

MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1530 on: July 08, 2016, 01:49:06 PM »
Americans police kill MANY MORE whites than blacks. They also kill plenty of latinos. However, due to the media and BLM, this has been turned into a white vs. black issue, which is not the case. This framing of events puts most white people on the defensive and on the sidelines.

White people outnumber black people in the US by about 5:1.  It makes sense that more white people are killed by police.  Even if US police killed four whites for every black person, that would still be an indication of increased targeting of blacks.

I don't know how accurate it is, but I heard a stat on the radio today related to the Dallas police shootings.  A uniformed police officer is 18 times as likely to be shot by an armed black man, as an unarmed black man is to be shot by a uniformed police officer.

Again, this could be bullsh*t, just because I heard it on the radio doesn't make it true.  However, if it's even close to that number, then we need to have a completely different conversation than the one forum members in this thread are calling for.

MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1531 on: July 08, 2016, 01:52:25 PM »
How so?

The way police (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Police training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

You disagree?

The way gun owners (as a whole) are trained and they way they operate in America is unacceptable. The people (of all races) need to stand up and demand that this changes. Gun owner training, culture, and their methods of self-policing need to change.

How about that version?

You can take a small subset of a population and extrapolate into great generalizations and go on and on about how "they need to change as a whole," but you are still generalizing. There are hundreds of thousands of good officers in this country - you just never hear about them because nobody really gives a shit. Bad news is what sells.

Police are public servants (supposedly). The people have a right to hold them to whatever standards they deem acceptable. Right now we hold them to standards lower than what we want. Simple.

The vast majority of officers conduct themselves properly. Fostering a narrative of "it's us vs them" is not productive, nor is it honest.

Do the majority of officers conduct themselves properly? Maybe. But that's not the point. The point is that many conduct themselves improperly.

My limited, anecdotal, personal experiences:

I have been pulled over 3 separate times in my life. Never got a ticket, all 3 separate officers were courteous and professional.

When I was 18 or 19, I was walking down the sidewalk. Two cops were walking towards me. As I passed them, I nodded and said "how's it going guys?"

They stopped me and pulled me aside and this was the exchange:

Cops: What?
Me: (Confused) How's it going?
Cop: How's it going, GUYS?
Me: Yeah man.
Cop: Man?
Me: Uhh....
Cop: The word you are looking for is "sir".
Me: Uh... (nervous laugh) sorry.
Cop: You mean, sorry SIR! That's it, turn around.

I spent the next hour handcuffed sitting on a bench. No charges, no ticket, I didn't get put into a car or taken to jail. Just sat there until they released me.

Two other cops walked by and asked what they got me for. The "arresting" cops said "Nothing, just teaching him some respect." All 4 of them laughed and went about their business.

So in my experience, I have had encounters with 3 good cops, and 4 who thought nothing of committing false imprisonment. Not a good track record with me.

Where was this city?  And in what decade?

Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1532 on: July 08, 2016, 02:01:31 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you have no idea that I spent five years as a police officer?  I would be legitimately surprised if you're more familiar with the training I was given that I am.

I absolutely do not dispute that there are bad officers (and agencies) out there.  That needs to be fixed. However, presenting the entire problem as "us vs them" is not a healthy approach.

I don't really care if you were a dog catcher.  No one, including me, that I've seen in this tread has said all officers are bad.  But the statistics clearly show that there is a systemic problem of racial bias.  I'm glad you acknowledge there is an issue.  While it is true it is not every officer it also is true it is more than a few bad apples. 

JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1533 on: July 08, 2016, 02:04:03 PM »
I encourage you to watch this video and THEN read my comments (Warning it is graphic and disturbing. Make sure your sound is on but not too loud):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw     Shooting of Kyle Dinkheller

After this shooting was caught on video, there was a "swing of the pendulum" in law enforcement training.

This video is shown to all LE trainees and used as a case study. The lesson is, DON'T BE AFRAID TO SHOOT. Officer Dinkheller waited faaarrr too long to take any action, and this ended up in his death. He should have made the decision to shoot sooner.

New cops are told DONT LET THIS BE YOU.

The result is that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; cops are scared to death of someone getting the drop on them, so they shoot too soon. Sometimes it turns out they shouldn't have shot at all.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you have no idea that I spent five years as a police officer?  I would be legitimately surprised if you're more familiar with the training I was given that I am.

I absolutely do not dispute that there are bad officers (and agencies) out there.  That needs to be fixed. However, presenting the entire problem as "us vs them" is not a healthy approach.

I don't really care if you were a dog catcher.  No one, including me, that I've seen in this tread has said all officers are bad.  But the statistics clearly show that there is a systemic problem of racial bias.  I'm glad you acknowledge there is an issue.  While it is true it is not every officer it also is true it is more than a few bad apples.

I'm not talking to you, so I give exactly zero fucks about what you think.  You're welcome to your own opinions, but I stand by mine -- building a narrative of "us vs them" is not productive or healthy.

Yaeger

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1534 on: July 08, 2016, 02:05:18 PM »
Wow.  Imagine what it would be like if you were black?

Would it be different? I doubt it. We can talk about subconscious bias all day long, but it's not going to help. It's just a red herring to this argument unless you can point to specific officers and policies that promote racial discrimination. Simply saying more blacks are arrested, convicted, and shot isn't proof of racism and shouting 'it must be Racism!' doesn't prove or help improve anything.

Statistically, you would have been treated worse by the police you met.

But yeah, there are certainly police policies that are racist.  Even the police are known to comment on them:
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/109458270-story

Garbage article. No proof, just one officer talking about his experience which may or may not reflect reality.

I've always thought about this study done in 2002 in regards to race and speeding, and its larger implications on policing. I think our view of racism is clouded by perception and bias. We want to see inequality and exaggerate it because it explains a narrative.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/nyregion/study-suggests-racial-gap-in-speeding-in-new-jersey.html?pagewanted=all
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 02:12:49 PM by Yaeger »

Yaeger

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1535 on: July 08, 2016, 02:10:04 PM »
I don't really care if you were a dog catcher.  No one, including me, that I've seen in this tread has said all officers are bad.  But the statistics clearly show that there is a systemic problem of racial bias.  I'm glad you acknowledge there is an issue.  While it is true it is not every officer it also is true it is more than a few bad apples.

I've seen nothing that's 'systemic'. This is always a cop-out for people on the left. They can say 'systemic' because it happens all over the country, but they can never point to laws, policies, or an actual systemic cause of systemic racism. People on the right hate racism as much as you, but jumping up and down on your pulpit shouting into the void about 'systemic racism' helps no one.

Give me laws, policies, people that are racist and we can work on solving this problem.

dycker1978

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1536 on: July 08, 2016, 02:11:19 PM »
One more thing to consider.  Many have stated that black people are more likely to commit a crime.

This may be true, but what is the ratio of white vs black living in poverty?

I think that is an important point to consider.   

dycker1978

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1537 on: July 08, 2016, 02:12:37 PM »
Wow.  Imagine what it would be like if you were black?

Would it be different? I doubt it. We can talk about subconscious bias all day long, but it's not going to help. It's just a red herring to this argument unless you can point to specific officers and policies that promote racial discrimination. Simply saying more blacks are arrested, convicted, and shot isn't proof of racism and shouting 'it must be Racism!' doesn't prove or help improve anything.

Statistically, you would have been treated worse by the police you met.

But yeah, there are certainly police policies that are racist.  Even the police are known to comment on them:
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/109458270-story

Garbage article. No proof, just one officer talking about his experience which may or may not reflect reality.

I've always thought about this study done in 2002 in regards to race and speeding, and its larger impacts on policing. I think our view of racism is clouded by perception and bias. We want to see inequality and exaggerate it because it explains a narrative.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/nyregion/study-suggests-racial-gap-in-speeding-in-new-jersey.html?pagewanted=all

This always seems to be your argument.  You disagree, to that link is garbage... 

MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1538 on: July 08, 2016, 02:15:47 PM »
One more thing to consider.  Many have stated that black people are more likely to commit a crime.

This may be true, but what is the ratio of white vs black living in poverty?

I think that is an important point to consider.

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/

Depends upon where you live.

Yaeger

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1539 on: July 08, 2016, 02:18:55 PM »
This always seems to be your argument.  You disagree, to that link is garbage...

A local Fox News channel article on someone's opinion isn't high on my 'non-biased, quality source' list.

Cyaphas

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1540 on: July 08, 2016, 02:22:07 PM »

The premise of your argument, i.e. "This is a police vs. everyone issue" is just as flawed as saying all gun owners are criminals.

Are there problem officers/departments? Absolutely.  Is it fair to generalize all of law enforcement and claim that it's "us vs them"? Absolutely not.

I disagree. Of the multiple ex-cops I know, every one of them quit because of the people they were working with and the things they were coerced into doing. We have created a class of armed unelected officials with extremely vague and far reaching powers that go unquestioned. I find it strange how the Dallas Police department became the first agency to drone a US citizen on US soil and no one is saying a word about it. Again, unquestioned authority. We all knew he wasn't going to live through this and the police knew no one was going to question how he was executed.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 02:57:27 PM by Cyaphas »
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JLee

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1541 on: July 08, 2016, 02:27:01 PM »

The premise of your argument, i.e. "This is a police vs. everyone issue" is just as flawed as saying all gun owners are criminals.

Are there problem officers/departments? Absolutely.  Is it fair to generalize all of law enforcement and claim that it's "us vs them"? Absolutely not.

I disagree. Of the multiple ex-cops I know, eery one oft hem quit because of the epople they were working with and the things they were coerced into doing. We have created a class of armed unelected officials with extremely vague and far reaching powers that go unquestioned. I find it strang how the Dallas Police department became the first agency to drone a US citizen on US soil and no one is saying a word about it. Again, unquestioned authority. We all knew he wasn't going to live through this and the police knew no one was going to question how he was executed.

I don't think you know what "drone" means.  If you are indeed arguing that deadly force is not justified against someone who's been actively shooting people and claims he has bombs ready to explode all over the place, under which circumstances exactly do you feel deadly force is appropriate?

Better yet...how about all of you who think you can do a better job go sign up.  Change the system from the inside.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 02:32:22 PM by JLee »

MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1542 on: July 08, 2016, 02:37:48 PM »

The premise of your argument, i.e. "This is a police vs. everyone issue" is just as flawed as saying all gun owners are criminals.

Are there problem officers/departments? Absolutely.  Is it fair to generalize all of law enforcement and claim that it's "us vs them"? Absolutely not.

I disagree. Of the multiple ex-cops I know, eery one oft hem quit because of the epople they were working with and the things they were coerced into doing. We have created a class of armed unelected officials with extremely vague and far reaching powers that go unquestioned. I find it strang how the Dallas Police department became the first agency to drone a US citizen on US soil and no one is saying a word about it. Again, unquestioned authority. We all knew he wasn't going to live through this and the police knew no one was going to question how he was executed.

This is the fundamental definition of a "police state".  But that is irrelevant to how this shooter was killed.  It was inarguable that he initiated deadly force & had no intention of stopping, and the police were no longer obligated to respond in any other fashion; however they chose to respond after that point, they were in the right.  The fact that they used a robot bomb to accomplish this end is also irrelevant.

However, this shooter was well prepared for this act, and apparently had some effective planning, but either did not expect or did not care about a bomb on a robot.  If there is a copycat attack, this trick won't work twice; bullets can stop robots too.

Cyaphas

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1543 on: July 08, 2016, 03:10:09 PM »

This is the fundamental definition of a "police state".  But that is irrelevant to how this shooter was killed.  It was inarguable that he initiated deadly force & had no intention of stopping, and the police were no longer obligated to respond in any other fashion; however they chose to respond after that point, they were in the right.  The fact that they used a robot bomb to accomplish this end is also irrelevant.

However, this shooter was well prepared for this act, and apparently had some effective planning, but either did not expect or did not care about a bomb on a robot.  If there is a copycat attack, this trick won't work twice; bullets can stop robots too.

I have no evidence of what happened yesterday. The only information I have is mostly from the same source. The source that just bombed a US citizen on US soil. Were they in the right... probably. Should they be Questioned ABSOLUTELY. But... silence. No one dares to question them. Thats a problem. Getting all of our information from the same source is extremely dangerous. Getting it all from the same source that just performed an execution is a very dangerous slope to walk on too. I feel the execution could've been avoided. I doubt they were looking for alternatives to it, and that's a problem. I also have a huge problem with a lack of investigation by our media. The coverage was and continues to be abysmal.
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Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1544 on: July 08, 2016, 03:35:54 PM »
I don't really care if you were a dog catcher.  No one, including me, that I've seen in this tread has said all officers are bad.  But the statistics clearly show that there is a systemic problem of racial bias.  I'm glad you acknowledge there is an issue.  While it is true it is not every officer it also is true it is more than a few bad apples.

I've seen nothing that's 'systemic'. This is always a cop-out for people on the left. They can say 'systemic' because it happens all over the country, but they can never point to laws, policies, or an actual systemic cause of systemic racism. People on the right hate racism as much as you, but jumping up and down on your pulpit shouting into the void about 'systemic racism' helps no one.

Give me laws, policies, people that are racist and we can work on solving this problem.

Hmm,  statistics clearly show the following:

1) if you are black and convicted you are much more likely to have a more severe sentence than a white guy with the same charge and same record,

2) If you are black you are significantly more likely to be stopped for no reason or for a minor traffic infraction than a white guy,

3) If you are black you are significantly more likely to hurt, killed, or incarcerated from said minor traffic violation stop than a white guy with the same record and under the same conditions.

I guess all those black, white, Hispanic, and Asian folks marching around protesting these killings are, well, just ill-informed and don't realize the cops are here to protect them.

Being a cop is one of the hardest jobs around.  They have to deal with all aspects of the underbelly of society that most of us never encounter - and are glad it's that way.  But --- there is a wide-ranging problem here where innocent people are getting killed for what should be minor interactions with police -- and when you look at the stats, minorities are getting the lion's share of the shit end of the stick.

MoonShadow

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1545 on: July 08, 2016, 03:45:00 PM »

Being a cop is one of the hardest jobs around. They have to deal with all aspects of the underbelly of society that most of us never encounter - and are glad it's that way.  But --- there is a wide-ranging problem here where innocent people are getting killed for what should be minor interactions with police -- and when you look at the stats, minorities are getting the lion's share of the shit end of the stick.

I think that this actually might be a large part of the problem.  The veterans are experienced in dealing the criminal element, and wisely instruct the newbies to be wary.  However, regular exposure to the underbelly of society will, inevitably, spoil your unconscious perspectives upon that same society as a whole.  Racism is merely a common survival instinct, tribal identification, taken to an extreme and/or inappropriately applied into a modern context.  As such, is it so difficult to imagine that a white cop, raised all his life to treat everyone with respect (regardless of race) until malice is shown, could slowly develop an unconscious racist attitude if most of his adult life interactions with young black men are negative?

Northwestie

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1546 on: July 08, 2016, 03:53:44 PM »

Being a cop is one of the hardest jobs around. They have to deal with all aspects of the underbelly of society that most of us never encounter - and are glad it's that way.  But --- there is a wide-ranging problem here where innocent people are getting killed for what should be minor interactions with police -- and when you look at the stats, minorities are getting the lion's share of the shit end of the stick.

I think that this actually might be a large part of the problem.  The veterans are experienced in dealing the criminal element, and wisely instruct the newbies to be wary.  However, regular exposure to the underbelly of society will, inevitably, spoil your unconscious perspectives upon that same society as a whole.  Racism is merely a common survival instinct, tribal identification, taken to an extreme and/or inappropriately applied into a modern context.  As such, is it so difficult to imagine that a white cop, raised all his life to treat everyone with respect (regardless of race) until malice is shown, could slowly develop an unconscious racist attitude if most of his adult life interactions with young black men are negative?

If you can find this online it's a very interesting documentary on policing in Newark.  They rode around with seasoned cops and filmed their interactions with the populace in Newark NJ, which has a large black population and a large crime rate.  It shows some the issues the cops have to deal with every day.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/policing-the-police/


What was striking was how they often stopped people for no reason other than "intuition" and their "street sense".  One young black guy was taken off his bike and searched and opps, just coming home with some video tapes from the store.   Another guy is walking home from night school and the cops approach him very aggressively and the guy is scared and takes a step backward.  Somehow that is reason enough to throw the guy on the ground and subdue him.  Eventually they let him up and he's asking, what did I do? What did I do?  The cops say he pulled back and that seemed suspicious.

These and other examples show there is a mentality that every black guy is up to something.  You can just go around and take down people for no reason -- that ain't gonna build community relationships

Add a poorly trained or scared cop to this bias and no wonder they are knocking off black folks for no reason.  We can do better.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 03:55:53 PM by Northwestie »

ncornilsen

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1547 on: July 08, 2016, 03:56:22 PM »
A big improvement to police accountability stares us in the face... put fucking cameras on police officers. Every one of them.  Some guy reaches in the window of the cop car and tries to take the gun, resulting in the death of said guy? Video proof. done. Some guy on a snowbank, when told to raise put his hands up, grabs for something on his belt, and is shot? Video proof. No controversy.  Officer makes a joke about jamming up a darky for no reason? On camera.

If a camera and supporting equipment costs about $4,000 per officer, and there are about 1.1m officers in the country, that's less than $15 per person. I'd pay a one time levy of that much to take care of this.


thepokercab

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1548 on: July 08, 2016, 04:14:13 PM »

This is the fundamental definition of a "police state".  But that is irrelevant to how this shooter was killed.  It was inarguable that he initiated deadly force & had no intention of stopping, and the police were no longer obligated to respond in any other fashion; however they chose to respond after that point, they were in the right.  The fact that they used a robot bomb to accomplish this end is also irrelevant.

However, this shooter was well prepared for this act, and apparently had some effective planning, but either did not expect or did not care about a bomb on a robot.  If there is a copycat attack, this trick won't work twice; bullets can stop robots too.

I have no evidence of what happened yesterday. The only information I have is mostly from the same source. The source that just bombed a US citizen on US soil. Were they in the right... probably. Should they be Questioned ABSOLUTELY. But... silence. No one dares to question them. Thats a problem. Getting all of our information from the same source is extremely dangerous. Getting it all from the same source that just performed an execution is a very dangerous slope to walk on too. I feel the execution could've been avoided. I doubt they were looking for alternatives to it, and that's a problem. I also have a huge problem with a lack of investigation by our media. The coverage was and continues to be abysmal.

Its awful what happened yesterday, but strapping a bomb on a robot and killing a citizen.  Yikes.  That shit happening, and the fact that its apparently an option, is kind of disturbing too. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Firearms in the home
« Reply #1549 on: July 08, 2016, 04:24:56 PM »

This is the fundamental definition of a "police state".  But that is irrelevant to how this shooter was killed.  It was inarguable that he initiated deadly force & had no intention of stopping, and the police were no longer obligated to respond in any other fashion; however they chose to respond after that point, they were in the right.  The fact that they used a robot bomb to accomplish this end is also irrelevant.

However, this shooter was well prepared for this act, and apparently had some effective planning, but either did not expect or did not care about a bomb on a robot.  If there is a copycat attack, this trick won't work twice; bullets can stop robots too.

I have no evidence of what happened yesterday. The only information I have is mostly from the same source. The source that just bombed a US citizen on US soil. Were they in the right... probably. Should they be Questioned ABSOLUTELY. But... silence. No one dares to question them. Thats a problem. Getting all of our information from the same source is extremely dangerous. Getting it all from the same source that just performed an execution is a very dangerous slope to walk on too. I feel the execution could've been avoided. I doubt they were looking for alternatives to it, and that's a problem. I also have a huge problem with a lack of investigation by our media. The coverage was and continues to be abysmal.

Its awful what happened yesterday, but strapping a bomb on a robot and killing a citizen.  Yikes.  That shit happening, and the fact that its apparently an option, is kind of disturbing too.

I think it's kind of ingenious. No need to risk innocent lives to get a bad guy.  I'm struggling to imagine how it would be 'better' if a swat team had gone in and two more officers had died before shooting the suspect.  The math just seems to favor using humans less for dangerous work like this.
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