Author Topic: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast  (Read 5998 times)

Sailor Sam

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Bottom Line Up Front: I am a military officer under the Department of Homeland Security, and I increasingly think I need to choose between my commission and my morals.

Today I heard a report on NPR about family separation at the border. The topic wasn’t surprising, and honestly my horror has numbed out to a sort of dull resignation. Today was a new horror, though. Children of so called ‘tender age’ who cannot be reunited with their parents, because U.S. officials have no idea who their parents are. The parents are not provided the children’s immigration numbers during processing, the children are too young to trace their parents from their end (sometimes so young they don’t know their parents have names past ‘mama’ and ‘papa’), and voilà - something seen as a humanitarian crisis on both sides of the aisle is made a little more evil.

On top of all that horror, the travel ban was upheld by the Supreme Court.

For much of my adult life I’ve insisted that national pride is good, as long as the pride is humble and doesn’t descend into nationalism. Accordingly, I believe my country is one of the greats, but aware there are many other great nations in the world. I am proud that my country is a destination for those suffering oppression and instability in their birth countries, but aware every wave of immigration has triggered a wave of racial or national hatred. I believe my choice of national service is a high calling, but aware that the US military has made it’s own grave mistakes and evil proclamations. I believe Trump is staggeringly unqualified, but I’m aware writing off all Republican votes as racist is its own form of evil.

I believed all these patriotic awareness meant I could continue my career as a military officer, even under a CIC I vehemently disagree with. Instead, I’d live inside the belly of the beast while ensuring my Command remained a bright spot of morality and compassion. Plus, I figured if everyone who believed differently fled, we’d be up shit creek almost instantaneously.

Today though, the double whammy of even more immigration outrages and the upholding of the travel ban, I’m suddenly wonder if I'm more akin to those German churchgoer during WWII. Steadily increasing the volume of their hymns in order to drown out the cries of the he boxcar full of Jews sitting on the sidetrack. Or, perhaps I'm a frog in a nice comfortable pot, just starting to marvel at the startling heat of the water.

Can I continue to claim personal honor and personal morality, while holding a commission from a governmental Department that's disregarding both honor and morality?

Dicey

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2018, 08:49:56 PM »
OMG, Sammy, I have no idea how to help, as I know hugs are verboten. May I just say that I love how much you care? You are a fine human being.

deborah

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2018, 09:02:22 PM »
There are quite a number of differences. To start with, you have a free press. While the internet has made the free press everywhere somewhat more anal, with poorer reporting and less of one of the fundamental institutions of democracy, it’s still there. You are able to get the information.

Secondly, this problem has occurred as part of reuniting children with parents - a reversal of a worse policy. All democracies make bad decisions. It’s what happens next that shows how good a nation is. We have all made terrible decisions about our own indigenous peoples, about immigrants, about our environment in the past, and have worked to reverse those with evil outcomes. It may take some time for the current fiasco to work through, and it does take many years for some evils to be righted.

Today, there was a survey out about the top 10 dangerous countries for women - https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/the-world-s-10-most-dangerous-countries-for-women-20180626-p4znrs.html - and for some extraordinary reason, it includes the USA. This is clearly untrue - I can think of a number of other countries where I would be less safe, that aren’t on the list. The reason I think it includes the USA is because people can speak out, because you have a vibrant democracy, because your citizens feel there’s a problem that they can work together on.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2018, 09:07:05 PM »
What are the repercussions for walking away?

Bicycle_B

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2018, 09:09:51 PM »
Good questions.

Tentative answers from one citizen's viewpoint, obviously just fodder for your own decisions:
1. Retain your commission unless ordered to directly perform an unequivocally immoral act.
2. If you must resign, do so loudly. Such resignations have more impact when publicly noted and discussed.

I met a former US diplomatic officer who resigned in protest when the US made clear it was going to invade Iraq. Said resignation was about 1 year prior to normal retirement age; I assume he lost a substantial pension amount. He felt that the rationale under which he was representing the country had been fatally undermined.

 He and two others publicly announced their resignations via something like letter to New York Times editor; would probably have been Twitter these days, I guess, with a link to more detailed letter posted somewhere. I met him after he wrote a book 3 years later. IIRC the book was not focused on the resignation story but rather was primarily an explanation of how normal diplomacy works and why it's important.

 One thing he was conflicted about was whether resigning was in fact best. He felt there were legit arguments on both sides, and stated respect for colleagues whose reason for staying was that their remaining work was arguably more important than ever. Not sure where the value-of-staying line is for Coast Guard.
 
If your vessel interdicts "illegal" travelers from a travel ban country, can you place them in federal custody but secretly leak the information of their whereabouts and identity to interested parties such as media, pro bono lawyers, etc? Can you inform them of any rights that they have, and make sure they are treated relatively humanely for the time being? Can you keep secret records of their presence, identity and treatment for use in overturning the ban or ensuring future amelioration of their cases?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 09:16:52 PM by Bicycle_B »

diapasoun

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2018, 09:12:31 PM »
I have no answers.

It makes me glad to know that members of our military, especially officers with decision making power, care so deeply for refugees and immigrants. This is especially true for the Coast Guard, who is perhaps more likely than most to interact with refugees and immigrants as part of day to day military life.

At the same time, I understand the desire to break associations - to not be part of something that increasingly hurts and confuses you.

Kris

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2018, 09:20:40 PM »
I am so sorry.

All I can say is, please stay and continue to fight with integrity for as long as you can. This regime must be stopped.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2018, 09:37:44 PM »
I'm so sorry, Sam.  It's a personal decision, and I don't think it'd be fair of anyone to judge you either way.  I will say that I am glad our service members include people of different viewpoints, and, as Kris notes, people with integrity.  I was very good friends the US embassy consul who resigned and submitted the affidavit demonstrating that the Muslim waiver process is a sham.  He has truly been a standout person for years -- someone tons of his peers always respected and we knew/know he will continue to make a huge impact in life.  This guy has f-ing unassailable integrity in my book.  Anyway, he was in a different position from you, but made the decision that was right for him in what he was being asked to do.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2018, 09:53:51 PM »

Don't let the mainstream media manipulate me.  Put your country first.  Have faith in the judicial system.  Support the Constitution.

dashuk

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2018, 03:56:33 AM »
I'm really sorry that you find yourself in this situation.  I'm sure, having followed your posts on here, that the USCG is the better for having you in a position of responsibility, but I know it's hard to reconcile being part of something, another part of which is doing considerable harm.

I cannot claim to offer any useful insight.  I did walk away from a sponsored engineering position with the UK MOD after Iraq, but that was basically consequence-free - I had no obligations to them and wasn't even technically employed at the time, as they used short-term contracts for summer placements.  I just left the graduate position offer on the table and went and got another job that wasn't procuring equipment for the military.  Nothing like the gravity of the situation you are in.

I really hope you are able to come to a decision which you can be content with.

meerkat

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2018, 05:56:19 AM »
Today was a new horror, though. Children of so called ‘tender age’ who cannot be reunited with their parents, because U.S. officials have no idea who their parents are. The parents are not provided the children’s immigration numbers during processing, the children are too young to trace their parents from their end (sometimes so young they don’t know their parents have names past ‘mama’ and ‘papa’), and voilà - something seen as a humanitarian crisis on both sides of the aisle is made a little more evil.

This has been what has caused me to lose my shit from the very beginning. My kid is that age - he doesn't know my name, he doesn't even know his own last name much less his address and phone number. I have heard that 23andMe is donating DNA testing kits to help reunite the families, if that helps at all. It's just rumors so far, I need to take time later to figure out who to call to demand that this be a thing that actually happens on the scale we need.

Today though, the double whammy of even more immigration outrages and the upholding of the travel ban, I’m suddenly wonder if I'm more akin to those German churchgoer during WWII. Steadily increasing the volume of their hymns in order to drown out the cries of the he boxcar full of Jews sitting on the sidetrack. Or, perhaps I'm a frog in a nice comfortable pot, just starting to marvel at the startling heat of the water.

I wonder the same thing. I'm going to a march this weekend, but part of me wonders if doing that gets my name on a list (not that it's going to stop me now, but will it cause me to be separated from my child in the future if I get sent somewhere for my "treasonous" behavior). That list won't matter now but at the rate we're going what will our country look like in a couple years? Then I tell myself I'm being overly paranoid. The problem is I won't know until years from now, after all of this has played out. All of us are stuck making the best decisions we can now with the information we have, shitty and incomplete as that information might be.

For now, I agree with Kris - stay and continue to fight with integrity for as long as you can. It's not like you're closing your eyes to what's going on or thinking Facebooks likes = prayers. Reexamine your FIRE numbers without your pension and what your budget would look like if you left your job tomorrow (assuming you got another decent paying job in the not too distant future). Plan, but don't feel like you have to move on those plans yet. And if you do have to leave, do so loudly.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2018, 06:07:41 AM »

I wonder the same thing. I'm going to a march this weekend, but part of me wonders if doing that gets my name on a list (not that it's going to stop me now, but will it cause me to be separated from my child in the future if I get sent somewhere for my "treasonous" behavior). That list won't matter now but at the rate we're going what will our country look like in a couple years? Then I tell myself I'm being overly paranoid. The problem is I won't know until years from now, after all of this has played out. All of us are stuck making the best decisions we can now with the information we have, shitty and incomplete as that information might be.


I've worried about this since a life event a few years ago...that I'd be an easy target of a witch hunt.
But now I think I'd rather be on that list then let these things happen without saying anything.

I'm taking off time on Friday to go to a rally to help a democrat congressional campaign. We have a vulnerable Republican seat- it needs to be turned.



To the original poster: is your commissioning oath the same as the one officers in other military branches take? Your oath is to uphold the constitution, not to follow the President (when they do not intersect).  Serve with integrity and do what you can. Even though you can't just put a stop to this, be a voice so that others you work with also see the injustices. Help to lead the change, even if it is in a small way.  And do your best to comfort the migrants who you come across who have been trapped in this inhumane system.  This is a sad sad chapter is US history.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 06:45:56 AM by I'm a red panda »

Moonwaves

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2018, 08:15:01 AM »
... I’m suddenly wonder if I'm more akin to those German churchgoer during WWII. Steadily increasing the volume of their hymns in order to drown out the cries of the he boxcar full of Jews sitting on the sidetrack. Or, perhaps I'm a frog in a nice comfortable pot, just starting to marvel at the startling heat of the water.
There was a good article today in the Irish Times that touches on this topic. You might be interested to read it for some food for thought: Fintan O’Toole: Trial runs for fascism are in full flow

It's really hard to understand when and how to draw a line, I think. To a certain extent it also depends on your financial situation. Can't remember if you're FI or not. What are the implications for you financially if you resign? What are the implications if you don't resign but do start pushing back and making a noise, insofar as that's possible and, I don't know, useful? (I really don't know what form that kind of thing would take and possibly watched too much television as a kid but maybe there is something that could make a difference.) If you start pushing back, is that bad for your career, is there a chance you could be discharged, would it affect pension etc.? Not especially looking for answers to these questions, by the way, just throwing them out there as something to think about.

Sibley

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2018, 09:00:41 AM »
There is one bit of comfort to you: you are not alone. There are countless examples in history of people like you who are placed in difficult situations, and forced to decide what to do. Perhaps do some reading to find some of them. I'm sure you're not the only one currently serving who is struggling with this either. I can not imagine how the people actually working with those children feel.

As an American citizen, one thing that comforts me is the knowledge that our military is unlikely to blindly follow any president into a takeover similar to Turkey's recent events. If you can do nothing else, standing firm against the tide can do a lot.

Re the babies and toddlers - we do have DNA testing available. They'll have to DNA test all the children, and then all the parents with children that age. We should be able to match up a good number at least. Is it ideal? No. But it's a start. The US will be atoning for our cruelty for a long time, whether we know it or not.

FIRE@50

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2018, 09:15:26 AM »

Don't let the mainstream media manipulate me.  Put your country first.  Have faith in the judicial system.  Support the Constitution.
Pretty hard to have faith in the judicial system after the recent SCOTUS decision on the Muslim Ban.

SisterX

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2018, 09:50:25 AM »
meerkat - I feel the same way, on so many levels. Even if they do DNA testing and successfully match up every kid with every parent (like that will ever happen), it still does not erase the trauma that these families have been put through. How do you deal with the fact that an institution has, in all of our names, done something so unspeakably cruel. When I heard that nursing mothers were being separated from their children I had to go and cry. I just can't even imagine what I would do if my nursling was taken from me.

As for the marches, I've been having the fear that this administration is totally the type to put people on lists and come to the same conclusion as you. I also know what kinds of "security" devices are out there to track people, and almost certainly deployed by not only our government but others too. But I'm still going to march.

This has all been making me think of The Hunger Games, actually. In the (third?) movie there's a scene where people rush a dam to destroy it and hurt the government. They know that for pretty much all of them it's going to be a suicide mission and they do it anyway. That scene left me so hollow and since seeing it I've been asking myself, what's the point at which that is worth it? I have kids. At what point is it worth risking my freedom and their safety to fight injustice? I decided that the risk of not taking action has to outweigh that of taking action and this, I think, is one of those moments. I cannot go quietly about my life and accept that this is happening in my country, that this is happening "on my behalf" by my government. On behalf of my kids by their government. I do not think the government is serving us anymore (and, realistically, hasn't been for quite a while) so staying silent will only make things worse. This is (one of the places) where I'm taking a stand and saying absolutely not. This is one of the times and situations when making a stand, even at high cost, is worth it to me.

Sam, does that help? To know that there are others, outside of the military, who are also going to be "fighting" this fight? I think you should stay in as long as you can, trying to change things when and where you can, until the point at which it either becomes untenable for you to uphold this system, or when you are asked to turn a blind eye or carry out immoral actions. Then quit, loudly and vociferously. We'll all be with you.

Out of curiosity, what's Petrie's thought and opinion on this? She's also military, so I'm assuming the two of you have had conversations in the quiet dark together.

omachi

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2018, 09:56:55 AM »
I understand resigning a post when ordered to do something that contradicts moral behavior. I understand resigning when problems and abuses are obscure or unknown, and a loud resignation from a person of character draws attention to those problems and helps facilitate change.

I don't understand good people handing the reins over to those that are willing to perform ill deeds, whether by order or by desire. As long as you have it in you to take a stand, and as long as it doesn't place you at risk of harm, please do so. As you say, if everybody like-minded fled, we'd be up the creek immediately.

acroy

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2018, 10:09:08 AM »
I am on the opposite side of most issues from you I suspect, however the method of good decision making stays the same.
- ensure you have a well developed conscience and know right from wrong
- examine your own choices and responsibilities. You have no ownership of other's choices. 'circle of control', one of MMM's better posts
- make a principled decision and execute it
- keep calm and carry on. feeding an internal doubt/rage monster only hurts yourself.

Good luck

Warlord1986

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2018, 01:22:48 PM »
When the goose-stepping starts down Pennsylvania Ave. we'll need people on the inside of the system to help the Resistance.

ematicic

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2018, 01:23:27 PM »
Bottom Line Up Front: I am a military officer under the Department of Homeland Security, and I increasingly think I need to choose between my commission and my morals.

Today I heard a report on NPR about family separation at the border. The topic wasn’t surprising, and honestly my horror has numbed out to a sort of dull resignation. Today was a new horror, though. Children of so called ‘tender age’ who cannot be reunited with their parents, because U.S. officials have no idea who their parents are. The parents are not provided the children’s immigration numbers during processing, the children are too young to trace their parents from their end (sometimes so young they don’t know their parents have names past ‘mama’ and ‘papa’), and voilà - something seen as a humanitarian crisis on both sides of the aisle is made a little more evil.

On top of all that horror, the travel ban was upheld by the Supreme Court.

For much of my adult life I’ve insisted that national pride is good, as long as the pride is humble and doesn’t descend into nationalism. Accordingly, I believe my country is one of the greats, but aware there are many other great nations in the world. I am proud that my country is a destination for those suffering oppression and instability in their birth countries, but aware every wave of immigration has triggered a wave of racial or national hatred. I believe my choice of national service is a high calling, but aware that the US military has made it’s own grave mistakes and evil proclamations. I believe Trump is staggeringly unqualified, but I’m aware writing off all Republican votes as racist is its own form of evil.

I believed all these patriotic awareness meant I could continue my career as a military officer, even under a CIC I vehemently disagree with. Instead, I’d live inside the belly of the beast while ensuring my Command remained a bright spot of morality and compassion. Plus, I figured if everyone who believed differently fled, we’d be up shit creek almost instantaneously.

Today though, the double whammy of even more immigration outrages and the upholding of the travel ban, I’m suddenly wonder if I'm more akin to those German churchgoer during WWII. Steadily increasing the volume of their hymns in order to drown out the cries of the he boxcar full of Jews sitting on the sidetrack. Or, perhaps I'm a frog in a nice comfortable pot, just starting to marvel at the startling heat of the water.

Can I continue to claim personal honor and personal morality, while holding a commission from a governmental Department that's disregarding both honor and morality?

It seems like a good time to find a new job! Far fewer people had a problem with President Obama's ban on Iraqis. I know there are differences but President Trump has unparalleled obstructionism from so many levels of Government. His voting base does not believe in Open borders. We have Liberal Groups financing record migration from the south and the Mid East unrest and migration from there are simply too much for our current infrastructure to accommodate. As an Officer from with DHS, please tell us how we can accommodate all of the refugees that come here. Also tell me why they should not go through the many US embassies all over the world instead of coming directly here first? I have been curious about how they can afford to convoy that far, past so many embassies.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 01:50:01 PM by ematicic »

ematicic

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2018, 01:51:13 PM »
When the goose-stepping starts down Pennsylvania Ave. we'll need people on the inside of the system to help the Resistance.

What is the desired end result of your resistance? What regulations do you want to see passed? No sense having a mob of angry people if you have no direction.

Johnez

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2018, 02:12:46 PM »
When the goose-stepping starts down Pennsylvania Ave. we'll need people on the inside of the system to help the Resistance.

This. To affect change, be the change. I'm sure you are not alone.

***

I haven't felt this way in a while, but feels like history is being made right now. 9/11 was Earth shattering, but the political climate today feels like it's breeding more fear and is getting to  point where it's potentially more explosive.

Warlord1986

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2018, 02:13:14 PM »
When the goose-stepping starts down Pennsylvania Ave. we'll need people on the inside of the system to help the Resistance.

What is the desired end result of your resistance? What regulations do you want to see passed? No sense having a mob of angry people if you have no direction.

The actions taken depend on what depths the current administration sinks to. We might just organize and vote to get President Dumpster Fire out of office. We might have to organize the National Parks into a system of safe houses to hide brown people from Jeff Sessions and his ilk.

The desired result is Trump gone, the Alt-right driven back into their mothers' basements, and a return to respecting the Constitution.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2018, 03:06:47 PM »

Don't let the mainstream media manipulate me.  Put your country first.  Have faith in the judicial system.  Support the Constitution.
Pretty hard to have faith in the judicial system after the recent SCOTUS decision on the Muslim Ban.

It wasn't a Muslim ban.  Get your facts straight and don't let yourself be manipulated by the mainstream media.  SCOTUS made the right decision.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2018, 03:11:31 PM »
It seems like a good time to find a new job! Far fewer people had a problem with President Obama's ban on Iraqis. I know there are differences but President Trump has unparalleled obstructionism from so many levels of Government. His voting base does not believe in Open borders. We have Liberal Groups financing record migration from the south and the Mid East unrest and migration from there are simply too much for our current infrastructure to accommodate. As an Officer from with DHS, please tell us how we can accommodate all of the refugees that come here. Also tell me why they should not go through the many US embassies all over the world instead of coming directly here first? I have been curious about how they can afford to convoy that far, past so many embassies.

@ematicic, old mate, we agree on much. I fully and wholeheartedly agree that immigration must be monitored and regulated for the continued functioning of United States. Open borders between two nations with deeply unbalanced equities and prosperities would be like drinking sea water - the sodium osmosis would kill the organism.

But my post isn't specifically about immigration. It's about trying to strike the moral path when all the options are deeply grey. It sounds like the policies causing my angst are not causing you angst, so it's unassailable for me to request your sympathy. Yet, you're intelligent enough and resourceful enough to find your way onto a forum that insists members refuse their first thoughts, and give even their second thoughts a stern weather eye. Essentially, a successful MMM poster is a deep thinker. Given your maturity, surely you offer empathy even when you don't personally feel the moral noose. Why the aggression, brah?

Johnez

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2018, 03:11:38 PM »

Don't let the mainstream media manipulate me.  Put your country first.  Have faith in the judicial system.  Support the Constitution.
Pretty hard to have faith in the judicial system after the recent SCOTUS decision on the Muslim Ban.

It wasn't a Muslim ban.  Get your facts straight and don't let yourself be manipulated by the mainstream media.  SCOTUS made the right decision.

Sarcasm? Trump himself made it abundantly clear what the goal was.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 03:18:40 PM by Johnez »

DreamFIRE

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2018, 03:13:19 PM »
It seems like a good time to find a new job! Far fewer people had a problem with President Obama's ban on Iraqis. I know there are differences but President Trump has unparalleled obstructionism from so many levels of Government. His voting base does not believe in Open borders. We have Liberal Groups financing record migration from the south and the Mid East unrest and migration from there are simply too much for our current infrastructure to accommodate. As an Officer from with DHS, please tell us how we can accommodate all of the refugees that come here. Also tell me why they should not go through the many US embassies all over the world instead of coming directly here first? I have been curious about how they can afford to convoy that far, past so many embassies.

Well said.  There seems to be a lot of anti-American sentiment out there from presumed Americans that are more concerned about illegal aliens than American citizens.  I'm not part of Trump's base mostly because of healthcare, but I certainly support him on immigration.   It's about time we had a strong leader with some backbone on the issue after the the weakness from previous failed presidents.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2018, 03:13:56 PM »

Don't let the mainstream media manipulate me.  Put your country first.  Have faith in the judicial system.  Support the Constitution.
Pretty hard to have faith in the judicial system after the recent SCOTUS decision on the Muslim Ban.

It wasn't a Muslim ban.  Get your facts straight and don't let yourself be manipulated by the mainstream media.  SCOTUS made the right decision.

Sarcasm? Trump himself made it abundantly clear what the goal was.

Trump didn't have a vote on SCOTUS, sorry to have to tell you that.

Johnez

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2018, 03:22:31 PM »

Don't let the mainstream media manipulate me.  Put your country first.  Have faith in the judicial system.  Support the Constitution.
Pretty hard to have faith in the judicial system after the recent SCOTUS decision on the Muslim Ban.

It wasn't a Muslim ban.  Get your facts straight and don't let yourself be manipulated by the mainstream media.  SCOTUS made the right decision.

Sarcasm? Trump himself made it abundantly clear what the goal was.

Trump didn't have a vote on SCOTUS, sorry to have to tell you that.

One non sequitur after another...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 03:33:12 PM by Johnez »

Fresh Bread

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2018, 04:09:23 PM »
Sammy, like many above, I also think it's important to have good people inside. There is no black and white with complex issues, and where there are grey areas what makes the difference to the people caught up in it all is the quality of the officers and the day-to-day decisions they make. Because you are capable of changing a culture for the better, (you've done it on your ship) it seems to me like it's better for your country if you hang around.

pbkmaine

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2018, 05:25:49 PM »
No easy answer - is it better to fight from within or from outside?

LeRainDrop

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2018, 06:07:54 PM »
Also tell me why they should not go through the many US embassies all over the world instead of coming directly here first? I have been curious about how they can afford to convoy that far, past so many embassies.

Sometimes I feel like people are being intentionally obtuse.  Why don't they go through a US embassy abroad?  Because you literally cannot apply for asylum at a US embassy or consulate.  Under US law, asylum seekers can apply only if they are physically present in the United States, or at least at a U.S. border or other point of entry; embassies and consulates do not count for purposes of this law.  Most of the people coming up from Central America are claiming asylum and, under our country's laws, they are required to show up at our border to make that claim!  Maybe reverse the way you look at the convoy -- their circumstances in their home country are so terribly unsafe that they are willing to make a very treacherous, high-risk journey just for the possibility that the US will grant them asylum.  All that shit they have to go through to get here is worth it because the alternative is extreme suffering or death in their homeland.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2018, 06:09:59 PM »
For Canada, refugees are processed abroad, asylum seekers show up at a border crossing/point of entry.  I imagine the terms are the same for the US.

ElleFiji

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2018, 06:33:58 PM »
Warlord, I'm glad you're in my gang.

Gin1984

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2018, 06:40:31 PM »
There are quite a number of differences. To start with, you have a free press. While the internet has made the free press everywhere somewhat more anal, with poorer reporting and less of one of the fundamental institutions of democracy, it’s still there. You are able to get the information.

Secondly, this problem has occurred as part of reuniting children with parents - a reversal of a worse policy. All democracies make bad decisions. It’s what happens next that shows how good a nation is. We have all made terrible decisions about our own indigenous peoples, about immigrants, about our environment in the past, and have worked to reverse those with evil outcomes. It may take some time for the current fiasco to work through, and it does take many years for some evils to be righted.

Today, there was a survey out about the top 10 dangerous countries for women - https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/the-world-s-10-most-dangerous-countries-for-women-20180626-p4znrs.html - and for some extraordinary reason, it includes the USA. This is clearly untrue - I can think of a number of other countries where I would be less safe, that aren’t on the list. The reason I think it includes the USA is because people can speak out, because you have a vibrant democracy, because your citizens feel there’s a problem that they can work together on.
I can think of numerous reasons for the USA to be on this list, chiefly our maternal mortality rate, which is climbing as other first world countries drop.  We are actually more unsafe, in some states than some third world countries.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2018, 08:38:44 PM »

Don't let the mainstream media manipulate me.  Put your country first.  Have faith in the judicial system.  Support the Constitution.
Pretty hard to have faith in the judicial system after the recent SCOTUS decision on the Muslim Ban.

It wasn't a Muslim ban.  Get your facts straight and don't let yourself be manipulated by the mainstream media.  SCOTUS made the right decision.

Sarcasm? Trump himself made it abundantly clear what the goal was.

Trump didn't have a vote on SCOTUS, sorry to have to tell you that.

One non sequitur after another...

I'm sorry that you do not understand.  Oh well...

deborah

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2018, 08:46:50 PM »
There are quite a number of differences. To start with, you have a free press. While the internet has made the free press everywhere somewhat more anal, with poorer reporting and less of one of the fundamental institutions of democracy, it’s still there. You are able to get the information.

Secondly, this problem has occurred as part of reuniting children with parents - a reversal of a worse policy. All democracies make bad decisions. It’s what happens next that shows how good a nation is. We have all made terrible decisions about our own indigenous peoples, about immigrants, about our environment in the past, and have worked to reverse those with evil outcomes. It may take some time for the current fiasco to work through, and it does take many years for some evils to be righted.

Today, there was a survey out about the top 10 dangerous countries for women - https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/the-world-s-10-most-dangerous-countries-for-women-20180626-p4znrs.html - and for some extraordinary reason, it includes the USA. This is clearly untrue - I can think of a number of other countries where I would be less safe, that aren’t on the list. The reason I think it includes the USA is because people can speak out, because you have a vibrant democracy, because your citizens feel there’s a problem that they can work together on.
I can think of numerous reasons for the USA to be on this list, chiefly our maternal mortality rate, which is climbing as other first world countries drop.  We are actually more unsafe, in some states than some third world countries.
But the top 10???? Let us think about it for a minute. Only 2 African nations are on the list - I'm sure there are a ton more that are much more unsafe for women than the USA - South Sudan? Somalia? Zimbabwe? What about the Pacific - Papua New Guinea? the Solomon Islands? or even the Philippines? Or Palestine? I'm sure you can think of a few more.

Fresh Bread

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2018, 10:35:05 PM »
Well Palestine might not be in the 193 UN countries surveyed as it's an observer state. I don't know about the others -maybe they are no more dangerous for women than anyone else? Maybe it's about inequality in danger?? Anecdotally, I've been to Zimbabwe and felt safer than in South Africa :)

deborah

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2018, 10:54:54 PM »
Well Palestine might not be in the 193 UN countries surveyed as it's an observer state. I don't know about the others -maybe they are no more dangerous for women than anyone else? Maybe it's about inequality in danger?? Anecdotally, I've been to Zimbabwe and felt safer than in South Africa :)
I certainly wasn't trying to be definitive - just to name a few nations where a woman may be more unsafe than in USA, off the top of my head. I think I've made my point though.

redbirdfan

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2018, 12:56:27 AM »
Sailor Sam,

Unless you are personally doing something that you find morally objectionable, I think you should stay.  The children won't be reunited any easier because you walk.  The border situation has always been a mess as it relates to children coming across the border - whether accompanied or not.  There are things NPR could have reported regarding the treatment of children coming across the border in every administration. 

For what it's worth, I believe the Supreme Court reached the correct decision regarding the 'travel ban.'  I find Donald Trump's rhetoric repulsive, but you can't have the Supreme Court interpreting the external words and statements of presidents to determine whether to uphold their executive orders.  That would be untenable.  Yes, it's galling when the President openly states that he wants to ban all Muslims from entering the country, but the opposite ruling would have opened a larger can of worms.  Had the SC ruled the other way then every executive order would be subject to scrutiny based on any extrinsic evidence critics could find.  You would have a situation where the exact same action would be allowed for President A but not for President B because of a tweet, speech, college paper, testimony of a college roommate, etc.  That's not the job of the Supreme Court.  The job of the SC is to determine if a president's action is constitutional...not to determine the level of animus required to negate what would otherwise be a constitutional action.  The former is within the Court's wheelhouse, the latter is not.

TL;DR: Stay.  Staying isn't appeasement and you can do more good from within.  Just don't cross any personal moral 'red lines.'         

LeRainDrop

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2018, 01:11:53 AM »
For Canada, refugees are processed abroad, asylum seekers show up at a border crossing/point of entry.  I imagine the terms are the same for the US.

Claiming asylum sounds the same -- the person must be physically present in the United States or at our border or a port of entry.  Embassies and consulates do not qualify for this test, so it is impossible for them to claim asylum before they get here.  While the United States processes some refugees abroad, that is on a country-by-country basis and it currently does not process any refugee claims in the embassies in Central America.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 01:13:51 AM by LeRainDrop »

EricL

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2018, 02:01:51 AM »
Bottom Line Up Front: I am a military officer under the Department of Homeland Security, and I increasingly think I need to choose between my commission and my morals.

Today I heard a report on NPR about family separation at the border. The topic wasn’t surprising, and honestly my horror has numbed out to a sort of dull resignation. Today was a new horror, though. Children of so called ‘tender age’ who cannot be reunited with their parents, because U.S. officials have no idea who their parents are. The parents are not provided the children’s immigration numbers during processing, the children are too young to trace their parents from their end (sometimes so young they don’t know their parents have names past ‘mama’ and ‘papa’), and voilà - something seen as a humanitarian crisis on both sides of the aisle is made a little more evil.

On top of all that horror, the travel ban was upheld by the Supreme Court.

For much of my adult life I’ve insisted that national pride is good, as long as the pride is humble and doesn’t descend into nationalism. Accordingly, I believe my country is one of the greats, but aware there are many other great nations in the world. I am proud that my country is a destination for those suffering oppression and instability in their birth countries, but aware every wave of immigration has triggered a wave of racial or national hatred. I believe my choice of national service is a high calling, but aware that the US military has made it’s own grave mistakes and evil proclamations. I believe Trump is staggeringly unqualified, but I’m aware writing off all Republican votes as racist is its own form of evil.

I believed all these patriotic awareness meant I could continue my career as a military officer, even under a CIC I vehemently disagree with. Instead, I’d live inside the belly of the beast while ensuring my Command remained a bright spot of morality and compassion. Plus, I figured if everyone who believed differently fled, we’d be up shit creek almost instantaneously.

Today though, the double whammy of even more immigration outrages and the upholding of the travel ban, I’m suddenly wonder if I'm more akin to those German churchgoer during WWII. Steadily increasing the volume of their hymns in order to drown out the cries of the he boxcar full of Jews sitting on the sidetrack. Or, perhaps I'm a frog in a nice comfortable pot, just starting to marvel at the startling heat of the water.

Can I continue to claim personal honor and personal morality, while holding a commission from a governmental Department that's disregarding both honor and morality?

On the whole it’s your honor at stake.  But if you can do nothing and if nothing is getting better to balance it out in the foreseeable future, I recommend you GTFO.  This from a retired Army Officer who’s both proud of his service. But  lives with regrets that visit as regularly as the direct deposit pension. And not a few fond memories of making stands that made that pension somewhat smaller.

JLee

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2018, 06:09:27 AM »

Don't let the mainstream media manipulate me.  Put your country first.  Have faith in the judicial system.  Support the Constitution.
Pretty hard to have faith in the judicial system after the recent SCOTUS decision on the Muslim Ban.

It wasn't a Muslim ban.  Get your facts straight and don't let yourself be manipulated by the mainstream media.  SCOTUS made the right decision.

Sarcasm? Trump himself made it abundantly clear what the goal was.

Trump didn't have a vote on SCOTUS, sorry to have to tell you that.

If you ignore the whole 'stall the Supreme Court nomination until we get our guy in' thing...

Mon€yp€nny

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2018, 08:12:43 AM »
I can imagine you doubt your career choices at this moment. Seems like you joined for the good reasons but now Trump's policies interfere with your moral values.I have cried after seeying and reading about the circumstances for the children and families.
Would you love job job without Trump/ the current orders? What do you expect will happen after Trump? (I'm afraid personally that the refugees crisis is a hard issue to solve, it will take many years. I hope our children will look back at it in shame.)

You make the comparison to WWII. My grandmother and mother were German, my grandfather Dutch during the war. My grandmother has told me we should make sure it never happens again and that I should do something before it is too late. Her family didn't vote for Hitler but many did, believing he would make Germany better and that he wasn't such a bad guy, that it was a lot of talk. People didn't do much but talk when new regulations affected minorities, not them and at one point, it was too late.
Her brothers were forced to join the Hitler jugend, they pretended to be pro Nazi cause they had Jews hiding in the house.  They had to act pro and the would get extra food coupons in high ranks. They also wanted higher ranks to plot 'mistakes' and 'accidents' when they were ordered to do things that harmed others. They would blame a real fanatic Nazi in the making for mistakes to prevent guys like that getting high ranks and making a chance to get selected for paid jobs. I guess they also did things that were not too pleasant or nice to protect their own. I'm  not going to pretend I'm sure it was al heroic and well,  I wasn't there. I can't judge them when they did, it was survival or not when it was too late.
One of them wanted to become a policeman later but was denied cause he had a good rank in the Hitler jugend during the war. That they were actually in a sort of small resistance group, could not be proven. Lot of finger pointing after the war of course. I know families that are still not liked in their village cause the grandfather made lots of money on the black food market over other people's backs or helped the Germans.
My grandfather was captured at the Dutch border and taken to a prison camp in the beginning of the war. The nazi's let all the Dutch military they had captured go at some point in 1940 or 41. They had the choices of joining the Germans or hard labour. Would they be captured again wearing a Dutch soldiers uniform, they would be shot instantly. Hitler came to my grandfather's prison camp for PR and my grandfather was part of a plan to kill Hitler during this visit. Some people chickened out tough and their plan failed. Grandpa was still angry about that, the could and should have killed him before things got worse.
Grandpa has build roads in Germany under horrible conditions during the war.
My grandmother did witness a hanging by accident while foraging for extra food in a forest but relatively didn't suffer as much as others. Still, she was very traumatised. Grandpa was traumatised too. That affected their parenting and my mother's and aunt mental health and ability to have loving relationships (well, inability). The war and the trauma will stop in my children's generation.
The traumas that are caused now, will also affect 2 generations at least.

My advice for you, make a realistic judgement of what you can bear and how long. When  you have to or choose to stay, make sure you have reliable people around you that won't screw you over ever (remember that you can't trust people when money or power is involved, avoid those looking for higher better paid ranks, bonuses etc). Should you receive orders that don't meet your personal moral values, you have the choice to make a statement or make a 'mistake'. For the latter, you need those reliable people around you. It is very possible that mistrust and keeping a close eye on the actions of others will start soon in the US military. Pro Trump or against camps. Cover your back.
Good luck making these decisions.

EricCantonese

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2018, 09:29:31 AM »
It seems like a good time to find a new job! Far fewer people had a problem with President Obama's ban on Iraqis.


Obama's review of vetting procedures for Iraqis was not a ban on the scale of the Trump administration's. It was a review of Special Immigrant Visa application procedures that only lasted 6 months.

If you care, here's a link that goes into more detail about why Trump can't just say "Obama did it too."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/01/30/sorry-mr-president-the-obama-administration-did-nothing-similar-to-your-immigration-ban/

Quote
We have Liberal Groups financing record migration from the south and the Mid East unrest and migration from there are simply too much for our current infrastructure to accommodate.

I would love to see actual proof for this assertion.

Kris

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2018, 09:34:01 AM »
It seems like a good time to find a new job! Far fewer people had a problem with President Obama's ban on Iraqis.


Obama's review of vetting procedures for Iraqis was not a ban on the scale of the Trump administration's. It was a review of Special Immigrant Visa application procedures that only lasted 6 months.

If you care, here's a link that goes into more detail about why Trump can't just say "Obama did it too."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/01/30/sorry-mr-president-the-obama-administration-did-nothing-similar-to-your-immigration-ban/

Quote
We have Liberal Groups financing record migration from the south and the Mid East unrest and migration from there are simply too much for our current infrastructure to accommodate.

I would love to see actual proof for this assertion.

From ematicic? LOL!

dude

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2018, 12:08:53 PM »

As an American citizen, one thing that comforts me is the knowledge that our military is unlikely to blindly follow any president into a takeover similar to Turkey's recent events. If you can do nothing else, standing firm against the tide can do a lot.


Don't take too much comfort in this -- our military skews decidedly to the right, and has increasingly become the domain of religious evangelical types. Last I saw, Trump enjoys majority support among the military rank and file. The officers on the other hand, not so much.

Bicycle_B

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2018, 12:14:03 PM »
@Mon€yp€nny, at first I was just going to say, "Great screen name!" 

But your post was too profound for joking around. Thanks for posting.

Sibley

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2018, 02:25:23 PM »
But my post isn't specifically about immigration. It's about trying to strike the moral path when all the options are deeply grey.

I think all paths are gray. Some may be lighter, some darker, but there is NO perfect path for everyone. That is impossible. So the challenge comes to see the consequences, of either choice, and choose the one that is less wrong, or more right. One small decision at a time, building towards a mountain of choices for the good, the right, while acknowledging the imperfect, the mistakes, the failures. We, as human beings, are not infallible and trying to be will only cause us to fail.

At the same time, the lack of choice is a choice in itself. If you stand by and do not protest a wrong, then in some small way, you have committed that wrong. Standing still and silent is not the answer.

This is how we will better ourselves and fix what has gone wrong: by making small choices, striving for the good. By protesting wrong choices, and trying to heal the harm done. By repenting when we fail, and offering amends. By turning around when we have gone astray. By showing compassion and respect for all, regardless of anything else. That doesn't mean that we don't punish, or correct others, but it changes HOW we do things, and WHY.

Mon€yp€nny

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Re: Family Separation & the Travel Ban - from the Belly of the Beast
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2018, 03:44:20 PM »
OT
Thanks @Bicycle_B, Moneypenny has been my sceenname, e-mail, old blog etc in the Dutch frugal community for over almost 2 decades. Moneypenny was already taken here so I just had to get creative to make sure other users saw the difference, should the other Moneypenny still be very active, cause I couldn't think of anything else. So not that original /s.
And yes, I used to have Moneypenny's proffesion and yes, I love old Bond movies.

I inherited serious frugal genes from the grandfather I mentioned before.  Grandpa was the prince of penny pinching.  He knew all the prices at Aldi and would make sure he had to pay a sum xx,x2 or xx,x7. We don't have cents so cash payments are rounded of to 0 or 5 cents. He would save 1 or two cents on his groceries. I remember my grandmother wanting to buy me icecream at Aldi. Nope, get her cookies, that price is right. Maybe when we need unions later this week, we can buy ice cream. lol
Coffee was also used to get to that 2 or 7 cent, they had a huge stock of coffee and other things that would become unavailable, expensive and valuable should another war break out.
My grandmother was very relieved when groceries could be paid by bankcard by the way ;-).