Evangelical Christian question for Trump supporters

[radram]

Good morning.

I read this and agree there appears to be a double standard in play.  For those of you that identify as evangelical christian and support Trump, do you also see it as a double standard?  Why or why not?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/evangelical-christians-trump-bill-clinton-apology/495224/?utm_source=feed

[jrhampt]

I would see this as a double standard.  Fortunately, most of my evangelical Christian friends have been very outspoken about their reasons for not supporting Trump (having to do in part with his moral character), and many have indicated they are voting for Clinton.

[forummm]

Yeah, all those evangelical Christian leaders are big time liars. They are partisan hacks and sell snake oil. This is nothing different. They just want to be rich and powerful. If you actually read the Bible, you see that Jesus acted nothing like any of them. Abortion isn't spoken about negatively. The rich aren't worshiped. In fact, you are told to give away everything you have to help the poor. Instead of constantly vilifying people you view as sinners, you are supposed to give love to them. Etc.

[MrStash2000]

Come on Evangelicals... Get inline!

Don't you know Jesus would vote for Hillary?

[forummm]

Come on Evangelicals... Get inline!

Don't you know Jesus would vote for Hillary?

I'm not sure about that. The Bible says that a woman should never be in a position over a man.

[marty998]

Come on Evangelicals... Get inline!

Don't you know Jesus would vote for Hillary?

I'm not sure about that. The Bible says that a woman should never be in a position over a man.

You might have missed the sarcasm there :)

The Bible was written by men, no? And these men didn't have an agenda? Maybe Moses was having marital issues and being upset with his wife he wrote all this stuff about women being unclean.

Everyone is quick to point out biases in modern day literature. Funny how many people can't see the same biases in historical literature. They should be put in context and summarily dismissed as such.

[katsiki]

Personally, I find it hard to believe that many of these so-called Evangelicals actually believe what they profess to.  The leaders are the worst of the bunch.

God knows what is really in their hearts..

[Psychstache]

Come on Evangelicals... Get inline!

Don't you know Jesus would vote for Hillary?

I'm not sure about that. The Bible says that a woman should never be in a position over a man.

You might have missed the sarcasm there :)

The Bible was written by men, no? And these men didn't have an agenda? Maybe Moses was having marital issues and being upset with his wife he wrote all this stuff about women being unclean.

Everyone is quick to point out biases in modern day literature. Funny how many people can't see the same biases in historical literature. They should be put in context and summarily dismissed as such.

I'd assume most see no reason to put it into context as it is the weird of God and therefor infallible.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Jack]

Come on Evangelicals... Get inline!

Don't you know Jesus would vote for Hillary?

I'm not sure about that. The Bible says that a woman should never be in a position over a man.

In the New Testament? Anything stupid written in the Old Testament wouldn't be Jesus' fault.

[jrhampt]

Come on Evangelicals... Get inline!

Don't you know Jesus would vote for Hillary?

I'm not sure about that. The Bible says that a woman should never be in a position over a man.

In the New Testament? Anything stupid written in the Old Testament wouldn't be Jesus' fault.

Yes, I believe it was the Apostle Paul who said that in the New Testament.

[Mikila]

Rather than believe Christians are being hypocritical, I think of  the "Christian" masses, few practice their faith, if indeed they have placed their faith in Jesus.  They follow preachers who are sensational and entertaining, but who are even less likely to actually BE Christians.  The way they rob poor widows to buy private jets is disgusting.

I don't think Bible believing Christians put too much stock in what these guys say or who they endorse.  Most of the Christians I know don't want to vote for either candidate.  They don't respect either. 

Whether these people refrain from voting or pick whichever one is deemed the lessor of two evils may swing the election.

[radram]

OP here.

I do appreciate all the responses.

Are there any Evangelical Christians interested in responding?

[ABC123]

I ama Christian and I have no idea whatsoever who I will be voting for.  They are both pretty horrible.  I saw a thing on Facebook the other day about trying to choose between a candidate who inspires distrust and one who inspires disgust. That sums it up pretty well.  It truly boggles my mind that so many Republicans in general have flocked to Trump. He doesn't stand for anything! Every time he makes a statement on a policy,  he immediately goes back and says the exact opposite.

[HPstache]

Almost all of the Christian people I know, including myself, either say they wont be voting for him or are only going to vote for him because they know the implications of the people trump chooses for the supreme court and other positions where moral decisions / laws are made.

[forummm]

Come on Evangelicals... Get inline!

Don't you know Jesus would vote for Hillary?

I'm not sure about that. The Bible says that a woman should never be in a position over a man.

In the New Testament? Anything stupid written in the Old Testament wouldn't be Jesus' fault.

Yes, I believe it was the Apostle Paul who said that in the New Testament.

Correct.

God knows what is really in their hearts..

Assumes facts not in evidence.

[nobodyspecial]

I'm not sure about that. The Bible says that a woman should never be in a position over a man.

In the New Testament? Anything stupid written in the Old Testament wouldn't be Jesus' fault.

Yes, I believe it was the Apostle Paul who said that in the New Testament.

Can't help feeling that history would have been a lot nicer if Paul had ever managed to find a boyfriend

[iris lily]

OP here.

I do appreciate all the responses.

Are there any Evangelical Christians interested in responding?

since yours seems to be a baiting question (though politely expressed!) I doubt that you will get an answer from the demograghic you are soliciting. There probably arent many here anyway, they are over on the Dave Ramsy boards.

[radram]

OP here.

I do appreciate all the responses.

Are there any Evangelical Christians interested in responding?

since yours seems to be a baiting question (though politely expressed!) I doubt that you will get an answer from the demograghic you are soliciting. There probably arent many here anyway, they are over on the Dave Ramsey boards.

I rewrote my post 5 times in an effort to avoid the appearance of baiting.  That was not my intent.  Looks like I needed a 6th :)

I am not really interested in changing minds.  My experience shows that to be rather futile.  I am much more interested in the thought process as to how a person that rejected Bill Clinton on moral grounds supports Trump and whether that is also a moral decision.  If so, how did you arrive at that conclusion?

I have heard from many self identified Christians that do not support Trump, yet still say they might vote for him.  That is still helpful to my understanding, even though they did not respond to the double standard question. Do they see it as something other than the lessor of 2 evils?  So far, that seems to be it, or at least all they are willing to share.

[SteveRyeCurd]

I think politics has a lot to do with ingroup psychology.  If a person psychologically identifies with Team A, then his social identity is reinforced when Team A wins - and that can be more important than the actual issues.  So, beating Team B can become more significant than looking like a hypocrite.

We are more emotional than rational.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups

[JetBlast]

Almost all of the Christian people I know, including myself, either say they wont be voting for him or are only going to vote for him because they know the implications of the people trump chooses for the supreme court and other positions where moral decisions / laws are made.

I think this may be the answer the OP is looking for. Evangelical Christians know Clinton will not appoint judges that align with their views. They hope they can believe Trump in the nominees he says he will appoint.

[southern granny]

Evangelical Christian here (Southern Baptist) who will be voting for Trump.  I decided before the primaries even began that I would not vote for another Democrat although am a registered Democrat.  Reasons :  Those who refuse to work live better than the ones who are trying to work and pay their own way, the abortion issue is a huge part of it and well as gay marriage.  Gun control is also an issue for me.  I am not particularly happy that Trump ended up being the candidate but I will still be voting for him. Immigration is also an issue for me, I work in public health and I see how much (way more than you would imagine) that we are spending on providing care to illegal immigrants.   I do know other Christians who mention that voting for a woman is an issue for them but it is only a minor issue for me.  I agree that Trump is an ego maniac with many shortcomings, but he will get my vote. 

[Roland of Gilead]

Jesus saves, so he must be mustachian.

[forummm]

Those who refuse to work live better than the ones who are trying to work and pay their own way

You don't actually believe this do you? If so, I suggest you look into how small the benefits are, and how you are limited in how long you can get some of them. For example, SNAP is around $200/mo. And TANF is around $200/month and limited to a maximum of 5 years cumulative in your life, and many states restrict that further (e.g. AZ restricts it to 12 months cumulative in your life). Whereas if you do work for a living but have a low income you can get thousands of dollars in the EITC.

the abortion issue is a huge part of it

Did you know the Bible doesn't condemn abortion? In fact, if you believe your wife cheated on you, you should give her poison and if she miscarries, it means the baby wasn't yours. And if you beat up a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarry, the penalty is just a small fine--that you pay to her husband.

Immigration is also an issue for me, I work in public health and I see how much (way more than you would imagine) that we are spending on providing care to illegal immigrants.

Yeah, Jesus would totally be against providing care to people who are less fortunate than you. He never healed the sick. And never said to give everything you have to the poor.

[davisgang90]

So much love and tolerance for Christians in this thread.  Really hard to figure out why more aren't responding...

[radram]

Evangelical Christian here (Southern Baptist) who will be voting for Trump.  I decided before the primaries even began that I would not vote for another Democrat although am a registered Democrat.  Reasons :  Those who refuse to work live better than the ones who are trying to work and pay their own way, the abortion issue is a huge part of it and well as gay marriage.  Gun control is also an issue for me.  I am not particularly happy that Trump ended up being the candidate but I will still be voting for him. Immigration is also an issue for me, I work in public health and I see how much (way more than you would imagine) that we are spending on providing care to illegal immigrants.   I do know other Christians who mention that voting for a woman is an issue for them but it is only a minor issue for me.  I agree that Trump is an ego maniac with many shortcomings, but he will get my vote.

Thank you for the detailed response.  With all of those reasons to switch, why didn't you do it sooner?

[radram]

Jesus saves, so he must be mustachian.

NICE..... just nice :)

[southern granny]

So much love and tolerance for Christians in this thread.  Really hard to figure out why more aren't responding...

It doesn't upset me, it just makes me sad.

[radram]

So much love and tolerance for Christians in this thread.  Really hard to figure out why more aren't responding...

I agree.  Unfortunate.

[southern granny]

Evangelical Christian here (Southern Baptist) who will be voting for Trump.  I decided before the primaries even began that I would not vote for another Democrat although am a registered Democrat.  Reasons :  Those who refuse to work live better than the ones who are trying to work and pay their own way, the abortion issue is a huge part of it and well as gay marriage.  Gun control is also an issue for me.  I am not particularly happy that Trump ended up being the candidate but I will still be voting for him. Immigration is also an issue for me, I work in public health and I see how much (way more than you would imagine) that we are spending on providing care to illegal immigrants.   I do know other Christians who mention that voting for a woman is an issue for them but it is only a minor issue for me.  I agree that Trump is an ego maniac with many shortcomings, but he will get my vote.

Thank you for the detailed response.  With all of those reasons to switch, why didn't you do it sooner?

Thank you for your interest.  In the last several elections, I have tried to research individual candidates and voted for some dems and some republicans depending on their stances and records.  But it seems like our country has tried so hard to become politically correct that it has spun out of control.  Tax money being spent to give sex change operations to prisoners, Christian business owners  forced to provide wedding services for homosexual couples or go out of business, everyone fighting over bathrooms (of all things), and many others - that I have decided that I prefer to cast my votes for the more conservative candidates. 

[southern granny]

Immigration is also an issue for me, I work in public health and I see how much (way more than you would imagine) that we are spending on providing care to illegal immigrants.

Yeah, Jesus would totally be against providing care to people who are less fortunate than you. He never healed the sick. And never said to give everything you have to the poor.

Yes, the bible teaches us to provide for the poor. And I try to do that.  I give regular monthly donations to several charities ( not including the ones that are provided for out of my church tithes.) I also volunteer 5 hours each week at a charity that feeds the poor. When I am able to retire completely, I hope to do more.   But in the bible, property owners are told to not harvest all the crops so that the poor can harvest the rest.  It doesn't tell them to harvest the wheat, bake up the bread and deliver it to their door.  And until we as a country can take care of our own poor, and do something about the pension plans and social security, I don't believe we need to have an open door policy for immigrants.   

[badger1988]

As an "Evangelical Christian," I'm generally embarrassed by the national headlines generated by those who put a check in this same religion box.

Politically, I consider myself to be an independent, but have never cast a vote for a democratic presidential candidate. I personally can't see how a Christ follower could justify voting Trump. I don't believe in lesser of two evil voting, and think those who vote Trump for supreme court appointment reasons are grasping at straws.

Fortunately for me, I don't live in a swing state, so my vote doesn't matter anyway. I can just sit back and enjoy the show.

[iris lily]

OP here.

I do appreciate all the responses.

Are there any Evangelical Christians interested in responding?

since yours seems to be a baiting question (though politely expressed!) I doubt that you will get an answer from the demograghic you are soliciting. There probably arent many here anyway, they are over on the Dave Ramsey boards.

I rewrote my post 5 times in an effort to avoid the appearance of baiting.  That was not my intent.  Looks like I needed a 6th :)

I am not really interested in changing minds.  My experience shows that to be rather futile....

Ok, fair enough. But forumm and others like  him aure want to change minds, or at least they want to score points in a game of their own  making at the expense of any Christian who pokes his head out to respond.

[forummm]

OP here.

I do appreciate all the responses.

Are there any Evangelical Christians interested in responding?

since yours seems to be a baiting question (though politely expressed!) I doubt that you will get an answer from the demograghic you are soliciting. There probably arent many here anyway, they are over on the Dave Ramsey boards.

I rewrote my post 5 times in an effort to avoid the appearance of baiting.  That was not my intent.  Looks like I needed a 6th :)

I am not really interested in changing minds.  My experience shows that to be rather futile....

Ok, fair enough. But forumm and others like  him aure want to change minds, or at least they want to score points in a game of their own  making at the expense of any Christian who pokes his head out to respond.

Where did I criticize Christianity or the Bible in this thread? I didn't. I criticized the charlatans that sold out the true message of Christ and have consistently created division in our country with their non-Biblical message of hate. Their lies have no relation to Christ's message of love for all people.

My intent is to prompt people to reexamine their views given evidence they may not be aware of. There is so much blatant lying that goes on in politics. And that is also the case among the evangelical Christian leaders who get active in politics. They are not godly men. They have no hearts for service. They cut deals with the Devil to gain political power for their own personal ends. They are the Pharisees in our time. I was raised evangelical conservative Republican--as though those things were entirely consistent with each other. The reality could not be further from the truth. It took me years to figure that out. Having been inside the bubble, I can see how many people blindly believe that the religious leaders tell them. But having someone who can come along and help you begin to question the propaganda that you have been fed can be truly transformational. It's like having someone tell you about mustachianism/early retirement--it can tear away the blinders that the propaganda has set upon you and make you truly free.

Jesus was a radical socialist Jew who loved everyone and spoke out against the corrupt religious leaders of his day. People should be more like him and less like James Dobson and Pat Robertson. If you want to be a Christian, don't believe what other people pretend is in the Bible--learn what's actually in it. The Bible is all about taking care of the poor and that being rich is an impediment to godliness. It says nothing about abortion or hating your neighbor.

[MrStash2000]

Jesus would need to be a Globalist to fall in line with the modern Democratic ideology.

And since Globalism is a front for Corporate interests I could NEVER see him embracing it.

[forummm]

But in the bible, property owners are told to not harvest all the crops so that the poor can harvest the rest.  It doesn't tell them to harvest the wheat, bake up the bread and deliver it to their door.  And until we as a country can take care of our own poor, and do something about the pension plans and social security, I don't believe we need to have an open door policy for immigrants.   

That's an interesting perspective. But the practicality of today's economy is that wheat is grown only in very concentrated parts of the country. And then made into products in other parts of the country. And then shipped all around the country. There aren't wheat fields in the middle of our cities where those in need live. It's a much more efficient solution to provide finished goods.

I don't think Jesus asked for national ID cards before he performed his miracles to heal and feed those in need.

Christian business owners forced to provide wedding services for homosexual couples or go out of business

Jesus would spend time with prostitutes and eat with them and treat them like equal human beings worthy of his time and care. For someone against gay marriage, how is baking a cake for a gay couple really that different?

[forummm]

Jesus would need to be a Globalist to fall in line with the modern Democratic ideology.

And since Globalism is a front for Corporate interests I could NEVER see him embracing it.

Yes, Jesus would be against the corporatism that pervades both parties, and gives favors to well connected giant firms as the expense of everyone else. However, I don't see that as being a necessary outcome of globalism. I don't think globalism is something Jesus would be against. On the contrary, it might be positive as it can help bring food and services to the poor around the world.

[southern granny]

But in the bible, property owners are told to not harvest all the crops so that the poor can harvest the rest.  It doesn't tell them to harvest the wheat, bake up the bread and deliver it to their door.  And until we as a country can take care of our own poor, and do something about the pension plans and social security, I don't believe we need to have an open door policy for immigrants.   

That's an interesting perspective. But the practicality of today's economy is that wheat is grown only in very concentrated parts of the country. And then made into products in other parts of the country. And then shipped all around the country. There aren't wheat fields in the middle of our cities where those in need live. It's a much more efficient solution to provide finished goods.

I don't think Jesus asked for national ID cards before he performed his miracles to heal and feed those in need.

Christian business owners forced to provide wedding services for homosexual couples or go out of business

Jesus would spend time with prostitutes and eat with them and treat them like equal human beings worthy of his time and care. For someone against gay marriage, how is baking a cake for a gay couple really that different?

I know that you did not take my comments on bread to be literal, I am only making the point that the poor were expected to put forth some effort to care for themselves.  Our church clothing closet generally only provides for children and the elderly.  In multiple instances we have had working age men to come and ask for shoes.  They were all told that if they came back the next day and worked on the church grounds cleaning out shrubs, raking leaves, etc that new shoes would be purchased for them.  In only one case did the person return- because they all wanted something for nothing.

In your second statement - of course Jesus interacted with the social outcasts and sinners.  We strive for that also. We recognize that we have all sinned and fallen short of God's Glory.  Any gay person is welcome to attend our services, bible studies and fellowships.  If they fall on hard times, we would be happy to provide them food baskets or even pay their electric bill, but I feel certain that the church doors would be shuttered and we would be back to secret meetings in basements if we were ordered to perform a gay marriage.  That's just the way it is.  I make no apology for it.

I am done with this thread.  I have answered the original question.  Have a blessed day.

[badger1988]

forummm,

I agree with most of what you've been saying in this thread. I am curious whether you personally identify as a Christian, because you've so far ommitted (maybe intentionally) that detail from this thread.

[Cwadda]

I identify as Christian and I think abortion should be legal, gay marriage should be legal, etc. Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, should have no place in the government. Separation of church and state is important. The government should not be able to tell how people marry or what a woman can do with her body.

From a religious standpoint I think abortion is totally wrong. But I also think gay marriage is fine.

Trump and Hillary are both awful, so I'll be voting Gary Johnson.

[nobodyspecial]

The Bible is all about taking care of the poor and that being rich is an impediment to godliness. It says nothing about abortion or hating your neighbor.

The bible is mostly about definitions of what is a clean and unclean animal/person/act and long complicated clauses which can be exploited to allow loopholes - suggesting that the religious ideal is perhaps an SEC investigator

[Sailor Sam]

In your second statement - of course Jesus interacted with the social outcasts and sinners.  We strive for that also. We recognize that we have all sinned and fallen short of God's Glory.  Any gay person is welcome to attend our services, bible studies and fellowships.  If they fall on hard times, we would be happy to provide them food baskets or even pay their electric bill, but I feel certain that the church doors would be shuttered and we would be back to secret meetings in basements if we were ordered to perform a gay marriage.  That's just the way it is.  I make no apology for it.

I read your comments on the thread about evangelical christians, and the homosexuals. It’s interesting to me that gay folks would be welcome in your community, right until the point they got, well, uppity. Then the doors would be barred. Just the way it is. Sorry, you know how it goes. Hope to see you at Christmas service! 

Have you ever stopped to consider that the attitude you’re expressing reduces people to their genitals, and the configuration of holes they stick them into? I find this focus on genitals very strange, but it’s also puzzlingly common, so I suppose I’ll have to bow down to it. I really do think this is strange, but I do strive to meet people where they stand.

Here goes.

Sometimes I stick my fingers inside my wife’s vagina. Or, for variety, my tongue. I guess you never do the same with a lady friend? I have to admit it would be redundant for you to deploy a harness, so we'll have to let that part pass. Unless the increasingly popular pegging phenomenon is of interest to you?

On the man side, I have a friend who likes to insert his penis into the rectum of his husband. Generally after any head has been administered, because hygiene. No blowjobs for you? No toy box of butt sex? I mean, come on, no hand jobs even???

In the end, I have to conclude that the straight n’ narrow have pretty shitty sex. Sounds sad for you. Especially considering that when I have sex, the very foundation of society shakes. I am woman, hear me fuck.

[forummm]

forummm,

I agree with most of what you've been saying in this thread. I am curious whether you personally identify as a Christian, because you've so far ommitted (maybe intentionally) that detail from this thread.

No, I no longer do. But Jesus' message was generally very positive and I generally try to live in a way that's largely in line with it. I wish more people who claim to be Christians (and their leaders in particular) actually followed certain of his teachings. The world would be a better place.

[iris lily]

OP here.

I do appreciate all the responses.

Are there any Evangelical Christians interested in responding?

since yours seems to be a baiting question (though politely expressed!) I doubt that you will get an answer from the demograghic you are soliciting. There probably arent many here anyway, they are over on the Dave Ramsey boards.

I rewrote my post 5 times in an effort to avoid the appearance of baiting.  That was not my intent.  Looks like I needed a 6th :)

I am not really interested in changing minds.  My experience shows that to be rather futile....

Ok, fair enough. But forumm and others like  him aure want to change minds, or at least they want to score points in a game of their own  making at the expense of any Christian who pokes his head out to respond.

Where did I criticize Christianity or the Bible in this thread? I didn't. I criticized the charlatans that sold out the true message of Christ and have consistently created division in our country with their non-Biblical message of hate. Their lies have no relation to Christ's message of love for all people.

My intent is to prompt people to reexamine their views given evidence they may not be aware of. There is so much blatant lying that goes on in politics. And that is also the case among the evangelical Christian leaders who get active in politics. They are not godly men. They have no hearts for service. They cut deals with the Devil to gain political power for their own personal ends. They are the Pharisees in our time. I was raised evangelical conservative Republican--as though those things were entirely consistent with each other. The reality could not be further from the truth. It took me years to figure that out. Having been inside the bubble, I can see how many people blindly believe that the religious leaders tell them. But having someone who can come along and help you begin to question the propaganda that you have been fed can be truly transformational. It's like having someone tell you about mustachianism/early retirement--it can tear away the blinders that the propaganda has set upon you and make you truly free.

Jesus was a radical socialist Jew who loved everyone and spoke out against the corrupt religious leaders of his day. People should be more like him and less like James Dobson and Pat Robertson. If you want to be a Christian, don't believe what other people pretend is in the Bible--learn what's actually in it. The Bible is all about taking care of the poor and that being rich is an impediment to godliness. It says nothing about abortion or hating your neighbor.

Your intent of posting is to "prompt people to reexamine their views" which isnt much different than trying to get them to Change their minds. But given your  past intimate experience with the POV of evangelica ,Christians, i will cut you slack. :)

[forummm]

Your intent of posting is to "prompt people to reexamine their views" which isnt much different than trying to get them to Change their minds. But given your  past intimate experience with the POV of evangelica ,Christians, i will cut you slack. :)

You can still decide to be for or against whatever policy issue. My point is that you shouldn't base that decision on what someone else (with an agenda) has told you to believe. You can decide that abortions should be totally banned and that tax rates on the rich should be low. But you shouldn't come to that conclusion because someone lied to you about what the Bible says on those subjects.

[RetiredAt63]

I find it interesting, as an outsider, that a country whose constitution explicitly separated religion and state should have so much intertwining of religion and politics.  And yes, I am old enough to remember the furor of JFK running for office and being elected - he was a Catholic, OMG, the Pope will tell him what to do. Sure.

Whereas here, in a country whose constitution makes no mention of separation of church and state, we generally separate them, and remember one PM who said "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation."  And whose present PM, when asked why 50% of his cabinet in his newly elected government were women, answered "It's 2016".  Not to mention an ethnically diverse and abled group.

And if I want to look at what the bible tells me, I look very carefully to see what is actually described about Jesus.  The rest is just commentary.  And Paul was a misogynist jerk.  Roman women had all sorts of legal rights.  I grew up Anglican (USA = Episcopalian), just FYI.

Canada's new cabinet:

[Daley]

I'm not sure about that. The Bible says that a woman should never be in a position over a man.

In the New Testament? Anything stupid written in the Old Testament wouldn't be Jesus' fault.

Yes, I believe it was the Apostle Paul who said that in the New Testament.

Can't help feeling that history would have been a lot nicer if Paul had ever managed to find a boyfriend

And Paul was a misogynist jerk.

I have nothing to contribute to Radram's question, because I'm nowhere near Evangelical territory as I strive to walk the path of Messianic/Netzari Judaism in an effort to follow Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ of Nazareth) without the pagan baggage introduced into the "Church" over the past 1800 years or so... as such, I'm not inclined to make deals with political devils like so many of my Evangelical brothers and sisters are inclined to, nor am I inclined to be the sort of hypocrite so keen on preserving his own rights and freedoms as a public minority that I'd sacrifice everyone else's in the process.

That said, I have grown weary of the ill-informed Rav Sha'ul/Paul the Apostle bashing from the former/non-believers. Your own twisting of his epistles are equally as misguided in the exact same way as the twisting of his epistles of those you most vocally criticize who claim the faith and these same positions and defend their hatred through the magic of some sort of hyper "grace". You see the hypocrites, but you attack the wrong thing and still lose the love. The man may not have been perfect, but he was no bigot, misogynist, jerk, or anything else you might claim. I used to have little love or use for Paul myself a few years back when I started stripping away the nonsense poisoning the faith by connecting together the common threads between Torah and the Synoptic Gospels. As my understanding grew, however, and I learned to approach the material with the understanding of true unconditional love and started comparing modern translations against the source Aramaic and Koine Greek, I saw a man in Paul who knew Yeshua writing of love, compassion, understanding and forgiveness with the added depth and perspective of a Torah scholar. I also began to see very difficult and rather complex ideas discussed that could be easily twisted through (un)intentional ignorance, especially when divorced from context as is so frequently the case.

The entirety of scripture, from Bereshit (Genesis) to the Revelation of John... it is a consistent message of love, patience, forgiveness and redemption spanning centuries of authorship. There is no question that many within the faith miss this mark, but it doesn't diminish the actual message or take away that love. There are difficult passages, but understanding comes with wisdom and perseverance in study. All I ask is that you read what is said for yourself with the understanding that love is the central message, instead of either simply regurgitating the hateful bile spewed forth by the most vocally errant of the faith or reading these books through that understood lens of hatred. That is not the gospel or "the way" being taught.

The closing admonition put forth in Second Peter 3:14-18 (CJV) seems appropriate:

Therefore, dear friends, as you look for these things, do everything you can to be found by him without spot or defect and at peace. And think of our Lord’s patience as deliverance, just as our dear brother Sha’ul also wrote you, following the wisdom God gave him. Indeed, he speaks about these things in all his letters. They contain some things that are hard to understand, things which the uninstructed and unstable distort, to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

But you, dear friends, since you know this in advance, guard yourselves; so that you will not be led away by the errors of the wicked and fall from your own secure position. And keep growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah. To him be the glory, both now and forever! Amen.

[iris lily]

I find it interesting, as an outsider, that a country whose constitution explicitly separated religion and state should have so much intertwining of religion and politics.  And yes, I am old enough to remember the furor of JFK running for office and being elected - he was a Catholic, OMG, the Pope will tell him what to do. Sure.

Whereas here, in a country whose constitution makes no mention of separation of church and state, we generally separate them, and remember one PM who said "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation."  And whose present PM, when asked why 50% of his cabinet in his newly elected government were women, answered "It's 2016".  Not to mention an ethnically diverse and abled group.

And if I want to look at what the bible tells me, I look very carefully to see what is actually described about Jesus.  The rest is just commentary.  And Paul was a misogynist jerk.  Roman women had all sorts of legal rights.  I grew up Anglican (USA = Episcopalian), just FYI.

Canada's new cabinet:

Your view of our Founding Fathers is odd.The founding documents proscribe a state religion.They say nothing about servants of the government participating in religious activities.

But I realize that everything is better in Canada. I guess that is  why the founder of this website made his money and retired there. Oh, wait.

[GuitarStv]

I find it interesting, as an outsider, that a country whose constitution explicitly separated religion and state should have so much intertwining of religion and politics.  And yes, I am old enough to remember the furor of JFK running for office and being elected - he was a Catholic, OMG, the Pope will tell him what to do. Sure.

Whereas here, in a country whose constitution makes no mention of separation of church and state, we generally separate them, and remember one PM who said "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation."  And whose present PM, when asked why 50% of his cabinet in his newly elected government were women, answered "It's 2016".  Not to mention an ethnically diverse and abled group.

Your view of our Founding Fathers is odd.The founding documents proscribe a state religion.They say nothing about servants of the government participating in religious activities.

But I realize that everything is better in Canada. I guess that is  why the founder of this website made his money and retired there. Oh, wait.

It's not possible for a non-Christian to become president of the US.  Maybe some day in the future, but certainly not right now.  Calling Obama a Muslim has been a long standing political attack.  Coming from a country where religion is rarely if ever brought up in political discussion, it's really weird that it's such a front and centre thing in the US.

[forummm]

It's not possible for a non-Christian to become president of the US. 

It came pretty close to happening this year. 10 years ago I would have said that a black guy had no chance either. But I agree with you that being a non-Christian is a HUGE impediment. A better stat: of the 535 members of Congress, none admit to being atheists. There was one (Pete Stark) who retired in 2012. And Barney Frank admitted to being a nonbeliever after leaving office (he was willing to admit to being gay 25 years ago when that was possibly political suicide, but not to being a nonbeliever). I'm sure there are many other closeted atheists (since double digit percent of Americans are atheist). And about 28 Jews and ~7 with other faiths.

[iris lily]

I find it interesting, as an outsider, that a country whose constitution explicitly separated religion and state should have so much intertwining of religion and politics.  And yes, I am old enough to remember the furor of JFK running for office and being elected - he was a Catholic, OMG, the Pope will tell him what to do. Sure.

Whereas here, in a country whose constitution makes no mention of separation of church and state, we generally separate them, and remember one PM who said "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation."  And whose present PM, when asked why 50% of his cabinet in his newly elected government were women, answered "It's 2016".  Not to mention an ethnically diverse and abled group.

Your view of our Founding Fathers is odd.The founding documents proscribe a state religion.They say nothing about servants of the government participating in religious activities.

But I realize that everything is better in Canada. I guess that is  why the founder of this website made his money and retired there. Oh, wait.

It's not possible for a non-Christian to become president of the US.  Maybe some day in the future, but certainly not right now.  Calling Obama a Muslim has been a long standing political attack.  Coming from a country where religion is rarely if ever brought up in political discussion, it's really weird that it's such a front and centre thing in the US.

I was shocked at the actions of the British Columbia Human Rights Commissin in prosecuting journalist Mark Steyne for writing negative things about Muslims. Free speech is not a right that is much valued up north, apparently, and I am not sure how much your Constitution is worth if it supports  this kind of thing.

Orthodoxy comes in many forms.