Author Topic: Highway to hell  (Read 5485 times)

Just Joe

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2021, 08:10:10 AM »
Ideally we would make our cities more walkable/bikable with good train systems for longer distances.

You aren't in Canada, where freight trains have precedence over passenger trains.  So fun sitting absolutely still on Via Rail watching the freight train go by and your arrival time gets later and later.

Who cares whether freight arrives +/- a few hours? The passengers are far more tied to a schedule.

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2021, 08:17:32 AM »
Ideally we would make our cities more walkable/bikable with good train systems for longer distances.

You aren't in Canada, where freight trains have precedence over passenger trains.  So fun sitting absolutely still on Via Rail watching the freight train go by and your arrival time gets later and later.

Who cares whether freight arrives +/- a few hours? The passengers are far more tied to a schedule.

Stopping and restarting a 100+  at freight train takes a LOT more energy than doing the same to a 6 car passenger train.

I think in the US the tracks are owned and maintained by freight companies. Amtrak owns a miniscule amount.

So personally I'm fine with freight trains going first.

dougules

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2021, 11:31:30 AM »
Ideally we would make our cities more walkable/bikable with good train systems for longer distances.

You aren't in Canada, where freight trains have precedence over passenger trains.  So fun sitting absolutely still on Via Rail watching the freight train go by and your arrival time gets later and later.

Who cares whether freight arrives +/- a few hours? The passengers are far more tied to a schedule.

Stopping and restarting a 100+  at freight train takes a LOT more energy than doing the same to a 6 car passenger train.

I think in the US the tracks are owned and maintained by freight companies. Amtrak owns a miniscule amount.

So personally I'm fine with freight trains going first.

Yes, but how many cars on the road equals that increased energy consumption?  Speeding up passenger trains could mean significantly fewer cars on the roads. 

shelivesthedream

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2021, 11:57:31 AM »
Speed perception and safety perception are interesting. When we moved to our current house, I wrote to our local councillor to complain about the high number of cars speeding along our small residential street and asking if traffic calming measures could be introduced. He replied and said that they often got complaints and the police had recently done a speed study and found that very few cars were exceeding the 30mph limit, so nothing would be done.

My first response to that was that if lots of people are complaining that cars are "speeding" (i.e. going unsafely fast) on this particular road even though they're travelling within the speed limit, then maybe it's the limit that's the problem...!

ETA: for context, this is a residential street with one wide lane and cars intermittently parked on both sides of the road. Typically a car coming across another one coming towards it will have to stop and pull over so they can move past each other.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 12:21:39 PM by shelivesthedream »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2021, 12:12:44 PM »
Tie an 8 foot rope under the rear of your car. As it whips around in the wind, it will scare off tailgaters. Yet it's still short enough not to be run over by the car behind you at the stop light. Not exactly a James Bond oil slick, but good enough.

scantee

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2021, 12:31:49 PM »
Speed perception and safety perception are interesting. When we moved to our current house, I wrote to our local councillor to complain about the high number of cars speeding along our small residential street and asking if traffic calming measures could be introduced. He replied and said that they often got complaints and the police had recently done a speed study and found that very few cars were exceeding the 30mph limit, so nothing would be done.

My first response to that was that if lots of people are complaining that cars are "speeding" (i.e. going unsafely fast) on this particular road even though they're travelling within the speed limit, then maybe it's the limit that's the problem...!

ETA: for context, this is a residential street with one wide lane and cars intermittently parked on both sides of the road. Typically a car coming across another one coming towards it will have to stop and pull over so they can move past each other.

30 mph is way too fast for residential roads. There is no reason for the speed to be that high on non-arterials and the only reason cities set that limit is because that’s just widely considered the lowest acceptable speed limit. Research shows there are huge gains in safety when the limit is reduced with very little trade-off in time to destination.

My city recently changed the speed limit on residential/interior roads to 20 mph. It doesn’t seem to have made much if any difference in driving speed yet. There is little signage to indicate the change, they haven’t publicized it, and people just assume the slowest speed limit is 30 mph. My hope is over time behavior will change. Some type of enforcement would help a lot (cameras please) but I’m not holding my breath for that.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2021, 06:03:33 PM »
In Canada the freight companies own the rails.  The sad thing is, people drive or fly because Via Rail is so pathetic.  Not Just Bikes did a segment on this.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2021, 07:37:17 PM »
Speed perception and safety perception are interesting. When we moved to our current house, I wrote to our local councillor to complain about the high number of cars speeding along our small residential street and asking if traffic calming measures could be introduced. He replied and said that they often got complaints and the police had recently done a speed study and found that very few cars were exceeding the 30mph limit, so nothing would be done.

My first response to that was that if lots of people are complaining that cars are "speeding" (i.e. going unsafely fast) on this particular road even though they're travelling within the speed limit, then maybe it's the limit that's the problem...!

ETA: for context, this is a residential street with one wide lane and cars intermittently parked on both sides of the road. Typically a car coming across another one coming towards it will have to stop and pull over so they can move past each other.

30 mph is way too fast for residential roads. There is no reason for the speed to be that high on non-arterials and the only reason cities set that limit is because that’s just widely considered the lowest acceptable speed limit. Research shows there are huge gains in safety when the limit is reduced with very little trade-off in time to destination.

My city recently changed the speed limit on residential/interior roads to 20 mph. It doesn’t seem to have made much if any difference in driving speed yet. There is little signage to indicate the change, they haven’t publicized it, and people just assume the slowest speed limit is 30 mph. My hope is over time behavior will change. Some type of enforcement would help a lot (cameras please) but I’m not holding my breath for that.

What do you mean 30mph (48kph) is way too fast for residential roads? It's the default speed limit for residential, non-arterial roads in my state and it seems a very safe speed already.

Stopping distance at 48kph is about 8 metres (27 feet). Even if you add in reaction time of a full second, it's only 20 metres. And keep in mind most of the kinetic energy of the car is dissipated in the first part of braking, since kinetic energy goes up with the square of speed.

Reducing the speed limit to 20mph (32kph) seems to be ridiculous, in the sense that such a speed requires absolutely no forethought by pedestrians or drivers. I'm not convinced we should bow to the lowest common denominator. Drivers need to drive carefully and to the surroundings, and pedestrians also need to be wary of their safety. We should require some form of personal responsibility in our drivers and pedestrians, rather than just saying "I'm going to assume drivers won't keep a lookout and pedestrians won't either, so let's keep the limit so low that even in the absence of a proper lookout there won't be any serious injuries."

Note - school zones are an exception. The limit should be lower in school zones.






GuitarStv

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2021, 08:31:02 PM »
Speed perception and safety perception are interesting. When we moved to our current house, I wrote to our local councillor to complain about the high number of cars speeding along our small residential street and asking if traffic calming measures could be introduced. He replied and said that they often got complaints and the police had recently done a speed study and found that very few cars were exceeding the 30mph limit, so nothing would be done.

My first response to that was that if lots of people are complaining that cars are "speeding" (i.e. going unsafely fast) on this particular road even though they're travelling within the speed limit, then maybe it's the limit that's the problem...!

ETA: for context, this is a residential street with one wide lane and cars intermittently parked on both sides of the road. Typically a car coming across another one coming towards it will have to stop and pull over so they can move past each other.

30 mph is way too fast for residential roads. There is no reason for the speed to be that high on non-arterials and the only reason cities set that limit is because that’s just widely considered the lowest acceptable speed limit. Research shows there are huge gains in safety when the limit is reduced with very little trade-off in time to destination.

My city recently changed the speed limit on residential/interior roads to 20 mph. It doesn’t seem to have made much if any difference in driving speed yet. There is little signage to indicate the change, they haven’t publicized it, and people just assume the slowest speed limit is 30 mph. My hope is over time behavior will change. Some type of enforcement would help a lot (cameras please) but I’m not holding my breath for that.

What do you mean 30mph (48kph) is way too fast for residential roads? It's the default speed limit for residential, non-arterial roads in my state and it seems a very safe speed already.

Stopping distance at 48kph is about 8 metres (27 feet). Even if you add in reaction time of a full second, it's only 20 metres. And keep in mind most of the kinetic energy of the car is dissipated in the first part of braking, since kinetic energy goes up with the square of speed.

Reducing the speed limit to 20mph (32kph) seems to be ridiculous, in the sense that such a speed requires absolutely no forethought by pedestrians or drivers. I'm not convinced we should bow to the lowest common denominator. Drivers need to drive carefully and to the surroundings, and pedestrians also need to be wary of their safety. We should require some form of personal responsibility in our drivers and pedestrians, rather than just saying "I'm going to assume drivers won't keep a lookout and pedestrians won't either, so let's keep the limit so low that even in the absence of a proper lookout there won't be any serious injuries."

Note - school zones are an exception. The limit should be lower in school zones.

The problem with saying this is that drivers will be fine no matter what happens.  Pedestrians and cyclists die.  So the reality is that people not in cars assume the majority of responsibility.  A pedestrian struck by a vehicle going 50 kph is 8 times more likely to die than one struck at 30 kph (https://aaafoundation.org/impact-speed-pedestrians-risk-severe-injury-death/).

While it's nice pretending that at some point people will all magically prevent accidents through an unspecified way in the future . . . In real world trials, we know that speed reductions actually work (no 'personal responsibility' magical thinking required): https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12889-019-8139-5.pdf

Also, the WHO doesn't agree with your numbers:
"A car travelling at 50 km/h will typically require 13 metres in which to stop, while a car travelling at 40 km/h will stop in less than 8.5 metres." - https://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/publications/road_traffic/world_report/speed_en.pdf

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2021, 08:36:54 PM »
Quote
The problem with saying this is that drivers will be fine no matter what happens.  Pedestrians and cyclists die.

This is a banal truism. It doesn't get you anywhere logically, unless your proposal is to strip every speed limit down to, say, 25km/h (the level at which it is impossible to die from a collision because the forces are too minor). Since no one, not even you, is proposing that, the situation comes down to a mix of balancing various interests and personal responsibility.

You are right that drivers bear most of the moral culpability when it comes to accidents (this does not excuse pedestrians from being careless, though). My solution would be to increase penalties for drivers who do cause accidents. Right now the penalty for speeding is not much less severe than the penalty for speeding and hitting someone (as long as you don't kill that person, and as long as there are no aggravating factors like being drunk). In a more just world, the penalties would scale for actually causing damage. And instead of a fine (which irresponsible people won't pay), the penalties would be mandatory community service and re-education for even 'minor' accidents.

This allows some leeway for responsible drivers to drive to a responsible speed limit (say, 50km/h) rather than requiring all drivers abide by the lowest common denominator speed limit.

Quote
Also, the WHO doesn't agree with your numbers:
"A car travelling at 50 km/h will typically require 13 metres in which to stop, while a car travelling at 40 km/h will stop in less than 8.5 metres." -[/quote

This includes braking distance and reaction time. It is not just braking distance (the distance required from the first application of brakes).

We can't cotton wool the world.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2021, 03:58:43 AM »
@Bloop Bloop Reloaded My best guess is that you and I have a different idea of what "residential road" means. Try looking up "Howard Street, Oxford, UK"* on Google Streetview and imagine driving down there or any of the other side streets at 30mph. It's not just pedestrian safety - it's easy for jerks to cause head-on collisions of they encounter a car coming the other way, or to clip a car parked at the side of the road and injure themselves.

In London, the entire borough is Islington is a 20mph zone. On the one hand I think that is a bit excessive, but on the other hand it removes the "I didn't knowwww, it's so confuuuusing" excuses.

*Not a street I have ever lived on, internet stalkers.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 04:03:05 AM by shelivesthedream »

deborah

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2021, 05:21:38 AM »
There are quite a number of streets in inner Melbourne where the speed limit is much less than 50kmh because the street is quite narrow, or has other factors that have induced authorities to reduce the speed limit.

scantee

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2021, 06:20:59 AM »
Speed perception and safety perception are interesting. When we moved to our current house, I wrote to our local councillor to complain about the high number of cars speeding along our small residential street and asking if traffic calming measures could be introduced. He replied and said that they often got complaints and the police had recently done a speed study and found that very few cars were exceeding the 30mph limit, so nothing would be done.

My first response to that was that if lots of people are complaining that cars are "speeding" (i.e. going unsafely fast) on this particular road even though they're travelling within the speed limit, then maybe it's the limit that's the problem...!

ETA: for context, this is a residential street with one wide lane and cars intermittently parked on both sides of the road. Typically a car coming across another one coming towards it will have to stop and pull over so they can move past each other.

30 mph is way too fast for residential roads. There is no reason for the speed to be that high on non-arterials and the only reason cities set that limit is because that’s just widely considered the lowest acceptable speed limit. Research shows there are huge gains in safety when the limit is reduced with very little trade-off in time to destination.

My city recently changed the speed limit on residential/interior roads to 20 mph. It doesn’t seem to have made much if any difference in driving speed yet. There is little signage to indicate the change, they haven’t publicized it, and people just assume the slowest speed limit is 30 mph. My hope is over time behavior will change. Some type of enforcement would help a lot (cameras please) but I’m not holding my breath for that.

What do you mean 30mph (48kph) is way too fast for residential roads? It's the default speed limit for residential, non-arterial roads in my state and it seems a very safe speed already.

Stopping distance at 48kph is about 8 metres (27 feet). Even if you add in reaction time of a full second, it's only 20 metres. And keep in mind most of the kinetic energy of the car is dissipated in the first part of braking, since kinetic energy goes up with the square of speed.

Reducing the speed limit to 20mph (32kph) seems to be ridiculous, in the sense that such a speed requires absolutely no forethought by pedestrians or drivers. I'm not convinced we should bow to the lowest common denominator. Drivers need to drive carefully and to the surroundings, and pedestrians also need to be wary of their safety. We should require some form of personal responsibility in our drivers and pedestrians, rather than just saying "I'm going to assume drivers won't keep a lookout and pedestrians won't either, so let's keep the limit so low that even in the absence of a proper lookout there won't be any serious injuries."

Note - school zones are an exception. The limit should be lower in school zones.

Me: People just assume the lowest speed limit on streets will be 30 mph.

You: How could suggest 20 mph as an acceptable speed when everyone knows that nothing less than 30 makes sense?!

There is a whole bunch of research supporting 20 over 30 mph. Not just comments from internet randos like me but from people whose professional careers are dedicated to these topics. You should check it out.

GuitarStv

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2021, 06:47:02 AM »
Quote
The problem with saying this is that drivers will be fine no matter what happens.  Pedestrians and cyclists die.

This is a banal truism. It doesn't get you anywhere logically, unless your proposal is to strip every speed limit down to, say, 25km/h (the level at which it is impossible to die from a collision because the forces are too minor). Since no one, not even you, is proposing that, the situation comes down to a mix of balancing various interests and personal responsibility.

You should encounter very few pedestrians and cyclists on freeways, so there wouldn't be any reason to lower speed limits in these areas as the benefit would be negligible.  Where there is little pedestrian traffic and sidewalks/bike lanes are set far back from the road I think a reasonable case can be made for higher speeds.

In urban and suburban areas with extremely high foot and cycling traffic though, reducing speeds increases safety for minimal negative impact.  This is where I'd suggest that it makes sense to perform the speed reduction.  Besides the safety factor, it would encourage more cycling and less dependency on vehicles for transport.  This is the general approach that the Netherlands has used in many places to great success.


You are right that drivers bear most of the moral culpability when it comes to accidents (this does not excuse pedestrians from being careless, though). My solution would be to increase penalties for drivers who do cause accidents. Right now the penalty for speeding is not much less severe than the penalty for speeding and hitting someone (as long as you don't kill that person, and as long as there are no aggravating factors like being drunk). In a more just world, the penalties would scale for actually causing damage. And instead of a fine (which irresponsible people won't pay), the penalties would be mandatory community service and re-education for even 'minor' accidents.

This allows some leeway for responsible drivers to drive to a responsible speed limit (say, 50km/h) rather than requiring all drivers abide by the lowest common denominator speed limit.

To this, I'd argue that a responsible driver would already be operating his or her vehicle at below the limit in the scenarios I suggest limiting speed, so there should be no impact on responsible drivers.  You appear to be arguing that just because we're used to the danger it somehow means that driving at 50 kph on dense streets with plenty of vehicular, pedestrian, and cycle traffic makes sense - I'd like to see the data being used to support these claims.


Quote
Also, the WHO doesn't agree with your numbers:
"A car travelling at 50 km/h will typically require 13 metres in which to stop, while a car travelling at 40 km/h will stop in less than 8.5 metres." -

This includes braking distance and reaction time. It is not just braking distance (the distance required from the first application of brakes).

A number that fails to account for human reaction time when judging safety of a human operating a vehicle would appear to be a fundamentally dishonest amount to give.


We can't cotton wool the world.

Agreed - this is why I think we should stop giving preference to fragile and complain-y automobile drivers at the cost of the lives of pedestrians and cyclists.  Drivers need to toughen up and learn to deal with the extremely minor inconvenience that their choice of transportation sometimes brings.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2021, 10:42:52 AM »
Quote
A number that fails to account for human reaction time when judging safety of a human operating a vehicle would appear to be a fundamentally dishonest amount to give.

Correct which is why in my original post I quoted both the mechanical braking distance and a further reaction speed distance. Or can you not read?


Quote
Agreed - this is why I think we should stop giving preference to fragile and complain-y automobile drivers at the cost of the lives of pedestrians and cyclists.  Drivers need to toughen up and learn to deal with the extremely minor inconvenience that their choice of transportation sometimes brings

Eh, how about we just continue the status quo, which sees a good balance struck between convenience and safety. We accept that some people are going to die on the roads because we can't cotton wool all road users, and that's the way it should be.

GuitarStv

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2021, 11:10:59 AM »
Quote
Agreed - this is why I think we should stop giving preference to fragile and complain-y automobile drivers at the cost of the lives of pedestrians and cyclists.  Drivers need to toughen up and learn to deal with the extremely minor inconvenience that their choice of transportation sometimes brings

Eh, how about we just continue the status quo, which sees a good balance struck between convenience and safety. We accept that some people are going to die on the roads because we can't cotton wool all road users, and that's the way it should be.

I don't accept that as the status quo is not a good balance struck between convenience and safety.  As mentioned, it's heavily biased towards automoblies - exactly that kind of transportation that we should be trying to minimize and not encourage.  I'm sorry if this upsets the comfortable cotton-wool fog that some vehicle operators depend on - but that should be seen as a good thing.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2021, 11:19:01 AM »
I like the idea of separate road systems for bikes and automobiles.

Anyone ever visited Germany? I was astounded when I went there 16 years ago. Towns are connected by bike paths that go through the countryside. This makes sense because all their roads are only a few cm wider than the cars :) but it also makes sense from a safety perspective, an encouragement of exercise perspective, an ecological perspective, and an economic wastefulness perspective. A tourist or commuter can hop from town to town by bike, at a pace of their choosing, without worrying about the danger from cars whizzing by. No stoplights either. The cities have dedicated bike lanes everywhere. This is part of the reason they drive maybe a third of the mileage Americans drive per year.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2021, 11:27:19 AM »
Quote
Eh, how about we just continue the status quo, which sees a good balance struck between convenience and safety. We accept that some people are going to die on the roads because we can't cotton wool all road users, and that's the way it should be.

I don't know what the status quo is in Australia, but the status quo here is ridiculous and I would be fully supportive of putting up active barriers to car usage in many places, as well as improving other transit options. Most houses on our London street have two cars out front and I call bullshit that they are all necessary. In fact, our council are on a big green kick but somehow haven't mentioned reduction of car usage as one of their goals. Maybe because they think it's impossible? Unnecessary? Won't have any impact on the environment? Or maybe it's just electoral suicide...

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2021, 11:31:36 AM »
Status quo in Australia seems perfectly fine to me.

I'm a big believer in the status quo generally.

I'm not that wedded to cars. I only drive about 5,000km (3,000 miles) a year and that's mostly leisure driving and track driving. I walk to work and have literally no need for a car. But I think they're a wonderful technology that we should continue to prioritise. If you want to diminish the use of cars in future the best way to do it is just to tax the crap out of them. I'd be fine with that. Maybe just make car registration cost $10,000 per year per car like it does in China? I'd be fine with that also.

Morning Glory

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2021, 12:49:59 PM »
I like the idea of separate road systems for bikes and automobiles.

Anyone ever visited Germany? I was astounded when I went there 16 years ago. Towns are connected by bike paths that go through the countryside. This makes sense because all their roads are only a few cm wider than the cars :) but it also makes sense from a safety perspective, an encouragement of exercise perspective, an ecological perspective, and an economic wastefulness perspective. A tourist or commuter can hop from town to town by bike, at a pace of their choosing, without worrying about the danger from cars whizzing by. No stoplights either. The cities have dedicated bike lanes everywhere. This is part of the reason they drive maybe a third of the mileage Americans drive per year.

We have a few of those here that were once railways. You do have to bike on the road to get to them, or drive to the trailhead with your bike. I always see plenty of cars parked at the trailheads on weekends.

Abe

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2021, 06:42:36 PM »
driving in the second to right lane worked. People would tailgate but then start honking wildly and eventually take one of the empty lanes.

 Also interestingly enough, a local station had a map prepared by DOT here in Houston showing “road rage” hotspots (been a lot of shootings on the highway recently), and my route was one of two interstate highways running through here that had abnormally high numbers. I’m not crazy after all!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 06:45:00 PM by Abe »

Sibley

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Re: Highway to hell
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2021, 08:50:16 PM »
Glad you've got a solution @Abe . Since it sounds like you're only doing this route once or twice a week, that will hopefully be adequate.